Author Topic: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!  (Read 50360 times)

Namdrol

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Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« on: March 07, 2012, 02:20:04 AM »
This picture shows the wall paiting of a Nyingma center with Dorje Drolo stepping on a monk, the monk is supposed to be Dorje Shugden! Isn't monk a universal symbol of holiness? Even if they think Shugden is evil, shouldn't they just draw Shugden not in a monk's clothes? How twisted it is to depict a monk being stepped on, no matter how noble the reasoning is!!!

Quote of a famous incident: in the 70s or 80s the 16th Karmapa went to an opening of a Nyingma monastery in Nepal. There, they had a statue of Dorje Drolo which had been modified and shown to be stepping on Dorje Shugden. Karmapa was very angry when he saw this. He said, “Who made this? Where did this lineage come from? Show me the monk who did this.” He left the monastery very unhappy.

More than that, the Karmapa predicted then to the Nyingmas at the monastery, “You will have no choice in the future but to practice this protector; there will come a time when you need him" referring of course to Dorje Shugden.

This incident has been written and recorded down by Dagom Rinpoche himself, see the sungbum in the attached pic.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 11:57:30 AM by Mana »

Positive Change

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2012, 06:41:07 AM »
Quote
This picture shows the wall paiting of a Nyingma center with Dorje Drolo stepping on a monk, the monk is supposed to be Dorje Shugden! Isn't monk a universal symbol of holiness? Even if they think Shugden is evil, shouldn't they just draw Shugden not in a monk's clothes? How twisted it is to depict a monk being stepped on, no matter how noble the reasoning is!!!

It is indeed twisted and wrong in all aspects. We as Buddhist should not use such defamatory iconography to put down the holy sangha. It is really downright disrespectful!

If creating a Buddha image/statue purifies body karma and is most meritorious... what happens in situations like this when the depiction is "wrong" or putting down the sangha. Surely the opposite karma is created as it promotes wrong views.

Why do people resort to defamation in order to make a point. Perhaps there is no point to make and thus they just want to have that "shock value". Whatever the case is, there are certainly repercussions to such actions. The Karmapa's prediction is most interesting too! :P

Jessie Fong

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2012, 11:41:27 AM »
I have seen a statue stepping on Dorje Shugden while in Nepal.  I had missed it until someone highlighted it to me.  We were on a sightseeing trip and our itinerary for that day was to visit various centres as the tour guide had convinced us of the beautiful paintings that we would be able to view. 

We were shocked, to say the very least!  What a bad impression that gave us.  If they are against the practice of Dorje Shugden then they should just make sure that they are not depictions of Him anywhere in their own centre.



Ensapa

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2012, 12:00:55 PM »
I think the picture is pretty hilarious. It's like Manjushri stepping on Manjushri. Or an image of Guru Rinpoche and Tsongkhapa having a tantric battle. It is outright ridiculous and makes no logical sense at all. How can they paint the same being stepping down on another for whatever reason? If not for sectarian reasons, why would they want to put down the only Dharma protector that has promised to protect Gelugpa specifically? Perhaps to show their sectarianism openly?

I find it very interesting that the 16th Karmapa said those things, that he was angry that someone put down Dorje Shugden. This contradicts with the Dalai Lama's account of how Trijang Rinpoche hurriedly cleared his room when the Karmapa came for a visit while he was doing a Dorje Shugden puja. The Karmapa and Trijang Rinpoche swapped places before within their incarnation line and are thus extremely close. It is my guess that if a real verification is needed between the 2 Karmapas, it is Trijang Rinpoche that will be able to tell who is the real one.

As we know, Nyigma and Kagyu are very close lineages. They have interchangeable lineage masters as well as transmissions. It would be quite inauspicious that Nyigma drags Kagyu down due to this issue and create inauspicious things for themselves. Many high lamas of the Nyigma tradition has been passing away in rapid succession compared to other lineages, and the latest causality is here. I hope that they would just stop and leave Dorje Shugden alone for their own sakes.

But what I like about the prediction was that they will have no choice but to practice Dorje Shugden in the future. If The Karmapa predicted that and he is not even Gelug, that means that Dorje Shugden would be huge in the near future. Very huge…so all of these people who are playing crusader now will regret their actions.

Mana

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2012, 12:02:15 PM »
It is sad to see this Nyingmapa Monastery promoting sectarianism. If you look at the hundreds of old thangkas/statues of Dorje Drolod, he has never been stepping on a monk with a round domed hat. This type of Monastery with their non-authentic illustrations hurt the sentiments of many Gelugs especially Shugden practitioners. People should have the right to pray to what they like.

Should the Baptists paint figures of Jesus stepping on St Assisi? Baptists do not believe in Catholic Saints. But by painting such an image it hurts the sentiments of those who trust St Assisi.

Should Hindus paint images of Krishna stepping on Jesus or a mosque?? Of course not. You don't believe and that is fine. Do not become sectarian and hurt sentiments. Respect.

Mana


jeremyg

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2012, 02:51:41 PM »
Yes it is bad, but with the ban in place, this is very hard to avoid. People always like to think they are doing the right thing, and are following the Dalai Lama 100%. The Dalai Lama, never told them to do this so we can whine about it, yet we can also see the positives.

Without the ban images such as these wouldn't have existed. Now even more people, especially people against Shugden can be blessed by him, and it can plant imprints in their mind. Even though it is not in the manner we like to see our King, at least in some twisted way his image is out there. Now people who see he is being stepped on will learn about him. They will learn why he is bad, and hopefully someway along the way they will learn the truth, and realize he is a fully enlightened protector. In the best case scenario they will start to practice. In the worst case scenario imprints will be planted in their midstream so they can meet him in a future life. Win, win.

pgdharma

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2012, 03:09:01 PM »
As Buddhist we should promote tolerance and acceptance of individual beliefs and faith. Why should this Nyingma monastery hang up a wall painting like this? If they are against the practice so be it but don't  defamed and ridiculed an enlightened being . It is so disrespectful.  This Nyingma monastery should be ashamed of their actions. It reflects on how illogical and senseless they are.

They have collected such heavy negative karma by their actions that in future they will need Dorje Shugden to help them as predicted by the Karmapa.

triesa

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2012, 03:45:18 PM »
I have goolged some more pictures of Dorje Drolo, none of them were depicted as stepping on a monk. See pictures below.

Dorje Drolo is one of the eight manifestations of Guru Rinpoche/Padmasambhava.  The deity Dorje Drolo embodies the forces of insight and compassion beyond logic and convention. Invoking in the practitioner the fearlessness and spontaneity of the awakened state, Dorje Drolo transforms hesitancy and clinging into enlightened activity. He rides a pregnant tigress, which signifies the latent power of our intrinsic Buddha Nature. Drolo's energy overcomes distinctions of life and death, representing instead a continual process of giving birth to new circumstances and possibilities. Padmasambhava manifested as Dorje Drolo at numerous pilgrimage places in order to subvert indigenous Tibetan beliefs in demons and malevolent gods, redirecting their powerful energies toward the path of wisdom and compassion.

As we can see, the description of the iconography of Dorje Drolo did not mention the stepping of a monk. So whoever gave the order to paint Dorje Drolo in this Nyingma Monastery in Nepal must be an anti-Shugden practitioner.

They can paint whatever they want, step on Dorje Shugden, Dorje Shugden cannot be suppressed simply by this as Dorje Shugden is Manjushri.  Dorje Shugden will surely forgive those behind this, but unfortunately  their karma of the ill-intention of being sectarian will catch up on them one day.










vajratruth

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2012, 04:25:41 PM »
How unfortunate that a monastery should go so far as to depict not only a member of the Sangha but a great and enlightened Protector being treated this way.  But it really goes to show how much rot the mind can experience when not trained on the right views.

One of the first things that came to my mind is how I don't see practitioners of Dorje Shugden putting down the very people who oppress them. Imagine a painting of Dorje Shugden trampling the oppressors of the practice. Imagine thangkas of Dorje Shugden stepping on Monks and High Lamas who initiate; supported and/or executed the ban. I am so glad that you don't see that. It says a lot about the mind-stream of those who practice Dorje Shugden.

Elsewhere Dorje Shugden is depicted in ancient thangkas together with Guru Rinpoche, Setrap, Vajrayogini and other Buddhas and deities.

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=54.0;attach=43;image
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=54.0;attach=53;image

« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 04:28:52 PM by vajratruth »

Galen

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2012, 02:28:49 AM »
I have been to the monastery of which Namdrol was talking about where the statue of Dorje Drolo is stepping of a monk with a round dome hat (which should be Dorje Shugden). It is sad to see that this is happening especially in the sangha community which is suppose to be living in harmony and promote buddhist dharma. THey are in fact create schism among themselves. What would the world think when they see that Buddhist are against Buddhist? This is such bad image.

Also this depiction is not real and is created. Just like what Triesa has found out with more pictures of Dorje Drolo where there are no pictures of any monk being stepped on. For someone who is not well versed with Tibetan Buddhism, they will be confused and will think that it is true. Is the Buddhist centre creating confusion?

bambi

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2012, 04:01:26 AM »
It is so sad to know that they modified the statue and created disharmony. As monks, they are putting down the practices of Sanghas of different lineages which contradicts the vows that they hold everyday. Shouldnt it be based on facts that Lord Dorje Shugden IS Manjushri rather than hearsay?
The 16th Karmapa was right to be mad. I would be mad too. We must always respect the faith other people have and never create disharmony. Even in this forum, we do not talk bad against the DL and other lineages.
Stop confusing people with your disharmony. Everyone has their rights...  :D

dondrup

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2012, 07:04:25 AM »
How ignorant, insensitive and inconsiderate the painter of this thangka that depicts Dorje Drolo stepping on Dorje Shugden.  It is downright derogatory and disrespectful to Buddha Dorje Shugden.    The Nyingma Monastery that put up the thangka in their temple wall or built a similar representation is not any better.  It is an insult to all the Dorje Shugden practitioners!

If the 16th Karmapa had found the depiction inappropriate, should the Nyingma Monastery not remove the thangka quickly? This depiction creates unnecessary wrong views, misunderstanding and disharmony between the Gelug and Nyingma traditions.  It does not benefit the general public either. This thangka should be removed or destroyed because it is not educational or serve any purpose.

Who gave the painter the mandate to paint such a thangka?  Will this help the Nyingma Tradition to flourish by disrespecting Dorje Shugden?  Dorje Shugden is Buddha Manjushri!  What heavy negative karma the painter and those who supported the creation of this thangka are creating!  How would the Nyingmapas feel if someone else is to paint a thangka depicting Dorje Shugden stepping over Dorje Drolo?  If someone does not like Dorje Shugden, it is fine.  He can propitiate Dorje Drolo or other protectors.  It is bad already if you despise someone.  Here the painter is despising the Buddha! The painter is so ignorant! May Dorje Shugden bless your ignorant mind.

dsiluvu

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2012, 02:42:02 PM »
It is definitely sad to see these people insecurities and the need to WIN?

I think the haven't heard of the 8 verses. Definitely not a very Buddhist thing to do... and a self created fake thangka to comfort their insecure minds that Dorje Shugden is subdued by Dorje Drolo. How can 2 Buddha's fight?

Also from what I've learnt, Guru Rinpoche/Padmasambhava is the same mind stream as Atisha and Lama Tsongkhapa... hence... in reality the are all ONE and of the same source manifesting in different times and aspects to suit the different needs of the people at that time... so... if Guru Rinpoche = Tsongkhapa... hence wouldn't that mean Dorje Shugden is the protector for both or rather one since it is the same mind stream. So what is the need to argue and be sectarian for?

Sure sounds more like a power game then spiritual practice.

 

WisdomBeing

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2012, 08:47:24 AM »
People will be people. Everyone is still in samsara, so people will always try to put others down in order to make themselves feel better. Our only salvation is to follow the Dharma and be true to its essence always - which is not to harm others. It is sad that people who are supposed to be in Dharma – and Sangha themselves – often fall into samsara’s trap and even use Dharma as a reason to harm others. Schism is one of the heinous sins and the more people perpetrate it, the more negative karma they will receive themselves. Let us not criticise them because their karma will come back. What we can do is simply provide accurate information about our practice and let people judge for themselves.
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

jessicajameson

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2012, 06:31:52 PM »
I have goolged some more pictures of Dorje Drolo, none of them were depicted as stepping on a monk. See pictures below.

Yes! Furthermore in Buddha paintings, how they stand, what they hold, what they hold in their hands etc all symbolizes something.

Just like how Vajrayogini’s left toes presses upon Bhairava’s head, bending it backwards to the level of his heart symbolizes that she subdues the ignorance and anger of this mundane or worldly god, as his forehead is the seat of ignorance and his heart the seat of anger.

What does stepping on a monk mean? What does stepping on robes means? What does stepping on a practitioner of the Buddha Dharma mean?

Tsk tsk...