Author Topic: A special tribute to H.E. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso  (Read 12604 times)

Tenzin Gyatso

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Re: A special tribute to H.E. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2012, 12:41:28 PM »
Geshe-la's books were the first dharma book I came across when I was searching for spirituality. Technically geshela was the first person to introduce Tibetan Buddhism to me, although I never had the fortune of meeting geshela personally. His books is such a great dharma delivery tool as it reaches millions all over the world. The way it was written, filled with knowledge and yet easy to understand for new readers. Geshela is a great teacher, and from time to time I re read his wonderful dharma books.

He is a great scholar, but scholars can be wrong too. Let's just put it this way, Geshe Kelsang is like a really great teacher and that's nine points. So just give up Shugden and be the perfect 10!

Wouldn't it be cool for Geshe Kelsang and HHDL to have lunch together in London and be friends. Wouldn't that look really good for everyone concerned?

Zach

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Re: A special tribute to H.E. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2012, 12:43:04 PM »
It's not too late for Geshe Kelsang to make amends. Make a trip to Dharamsala, request audience with HHDL and apologize. Wouldn't it be better to make friends. Join forces and propagate dharma to even more. One less headache. One less controversy. Just follow what HHDL advices.

Why do you have to worship Shugden. There are so many protectors, just choose another one and you don't don't upset Dalai Lama's great plans for everyone. There's only one Dalai Lama, so choose him. Easy equation.

Dalai lama should make amends, not Geshe Kelsang whom is actually following the advise of his root Guru as per Buddhist instructions. It is not Geshe Kelsang who has created a giant schism in the Gelugpa sangha. If your a practicing Gelugpa you should know that His Holiness's accusations indirectly invalidate our lineage and specifically being able to recieve blessings to accomplish the path from lineage gurus because they where all spirit worshippers who do not have the basis for bestowing tantric initations.

I am not saying Geshe Kelsang is a bad guy. And I'm not trying to make enemies here.  It's just Geshe-la  make mistakes. If he doesn't go against HHDL then there wouldn't be a schism. If all the Gelugpas followed what HHDL advices, intantly the schisms are gone. No schism. How did the Dalai Lama create schism by advising you against an evil being? If you don't follow, you create the schism. I mean think about it. If your teacher tells you not to lie and steal or bull***t and you do and create trouble. Who is the trouble maker? You or your teacher advising you not to do so?

Makes better sense now?

Its HHDL whom has made the mistake rather then Geshe Kelsang. Geshe Kelsang actually follows his Guru advise ( Trijang Rinpoche) where on the contrast the Dalai lama has not followed his advise and has put great effort into destroying his teachings and reliance upon his protector. We follow according to our lineage because we dont see existent faults within our Gurus teachings unlike some whom see such within their own lineage ( might have to ask what is the point of having a gelugpa guru if they have all recieved blessings and transmissions from spirit worshipers which by nature would be inauthentic) Dorje Shugden is regarded as an enlightened protector and we are quiet happy with practicing according to this valid tradition. Your points do not have a basis in this discussion because they are inherantly negative actions and thus not to this debate.

Zach

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Re: A special tribute to H.E. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2012, 12:46:07 PM »
Geshe-la's books were the first dharma book I came across when I was searching for spirituality. Technically geshela was the first person to introduce Tibetan Buddhism to me, although I never had the fortune of meeting geshela personally. His books is such a great dharma delivery tool as it reaches millions all over the world. The way it was written, filled with knowledge and yet easy to understand for new readers. Geshela is a great teacher, and from time to time I re read his wonderful dharma books.

He is a great scholar, but scholars can be wrong too. Let's just put it this way, Geshe Kelsang is like a really great teacher and that's nine points. So just give up Shugden and be the perfect 10!

Wouldn't it be cool for Geshe Kelsang and HHDL to have lunch together in London and be friends. Wouldn't that look really good for everyone concerned?

Im sure they could do that Geshe Kelsang and Lama Yeshe had the wish for their students to develop a close connection with HHDL when they first where together in Manjushri institute however they realized there was no way HHDL would visit because he had been incorrectly disparaging his gurus protector and as any good student knows he who slanders ones lineage is an unwise friend to have.

icy

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Re: A special tribute to H.E. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2012, 01:32:46 PM »
I like Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's books.  His teachings are easy to read and understand without any Buddhist jargons.  He is an amazing Geshe who has accomplished so much in around the world to spread Lord Tsongkhapa's and DS teachings.  He has touched so many people.  I rejoice.

Lineageholder

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Re: A special tribute to H.E. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2012, 01:49:03 PM »
Years back if the Dalai Lama did not escape Tibet, build a relations with the Indian Govt and get land for the Tibetans, there would be no Geshe Kelsang at all. There would be no survival of Tibetan Buddhism. All the centres and lamas around the world exist because of HHDL.

Respectfully, this is not so.  The Dalai Lama escaped due to the kindness and insight of Dorje Shugden - this is well documented,  therefore why not attribute the continued presence of Tibetan Buddhism in this world to the kindness of Dorje Shugden who protected the Dalai Lama at every turn even though he would later betray him?

beggar

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Re: A special tribute to H.E. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2012, 01:54:54 PM »

Respectfully, this is not so.  The Dalai Lama escaped due to the kindness and insight of Dorje Shugden - this is well documented,  therefore why not attribute the continued presence of Tibetan Buddhism in this world to the kindness of Dorje Shugden who protected the Dalai Lama at every turn even though he would later betray him?


Amazing stuff. I agree with you there lineageholder. Dorje Shugden was instrumental in bringing Dalai Lama safely out of Tibet.

Please also see this incredible revelation of just how much and how directly Dorje Shugden really helped the Dalai Lama to leave Tibet: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=10704

Also, see this personal account form one of the monks who personally escorted the Dalai Lama out. He explains clearly who it was who told the Dalai Lama to leave - Dorje Shugden.
Dorje Shugden saved the Dalai Lama's Life Small | Large



Zhalmed Pawo

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Re: A special tribute to H.E. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2012, 08:57:10 AM »
I mean you can't compare the two teachers ok? HHDL is way far ahead in every aspect than Geshe Kelsang. There's a reason HHDL is way ahead, because his thoughts and what he speaks about has much more impact and relevance to many more people. His popularity just grows. That itself tells you how great HHDL is. I mean tens of millions of people all cannot be wrong compared to a couple of hundred Shugden practitioners.

Ah, the good old "my Guru is bigger than your Guru, and therefore my Guru, and by extention me also, are right, whereas you are wrong" -argument.

Big is correct, small is mistaken.

Might is Right.

Fascism.

And now, let me play the devil's advocate here. As the Holy Roman Church has more members, and the Pope a bigger audience, than all Buddhism combined, it follows, that all Buddhists go to hell since they do not embrace the Mother Church and accept the Pope as their bridge to everlasting happiness. Why do you Buddhists continue in your wayward and wicked ways, when it is evident, that your small idolatric teachers have no grace or blessings from the God? Stop creating schisms amongst the children of Noah, and return to the might, grace and care of the One True Church of the God.

Lineageholder

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Re: A special tribute to H.E. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2012, 01:31:30 PM »
I mean you can't compare the two teachers ok? HHDL is way far ahead in every aspect than Geshe Kelsang. There's a reason HHDL is way ahead, because his thoughts and what he speaks about has much more impact and relevance to many more people. His popularity just grows. That itself tells you how great HHDL is. I mean tens of millions of people all cannot be wrong compared to a couple of hundred Shugden practitioners.

That's hilarious!

So the Dalai Lama banned Dorje Shugden to prevent sectarianism?

Looks like it wasn't Dorje Shugden that was the problem.

beggar

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Re: A special tribute to H.E. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2012, 07:23:39 PM »
He is a great scholar, but scholars can be wrong too. Let's just put it this way, Geshe Kelsang is like a really great teacher and that's nine points. So just give up Shugden and be the perfect 10!


I wasn't aware that average people like us are qualified enough to run a point system on our gurus and "grade" them according to their practices. This is extremely disrespectful and disgraceful.

Are you as qualified as a teacher like Geshe Kelsang Gyatso?
Have you held vows for as long as he has? Taught as many people as he has? Set up as many centers and maintained as many students?

If you haven't, then you really have no right to "grade" him the way you just have.

Further, another perspective: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's teacher was Trijang Rinpoche; every teaching, practice and initiation he has received comes from the supreme and unfaulted lineage of Trijang Rinpoche. The Dalai Lama ALSO studied directly under Trijang Rinpoche. both the Dalai Lama and Trijang Rinpoche studied with the same teacher, received the same teachings and lineages. Why is it that one is considered so perfect and the other isn't? Such contradictions and inconsistencies to these arguments against DS teachers like Geshe-la.

In any case, we are not playing a comparison game. This is not a popularity contest to vouch for whose Guru is greater than another. It is simple a tribute to huge contribution to Dharma that one Lama made. All Lamas contribute in different ways, at different times, to different groups of people. This thread and article was not started to compare which lama is greater or has accomplished more etc. It is a celebration and appreciation of all that every Lama has done. Why can't you just rejoice in this?

Tenzin Gyatso

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Re: A special tribute to H.E. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2012, 08:31:39 PM »
HHDL banned Dhogyal for the welfare of the greater many. After much observation, investigation, consulting various teachers/monks/laity decided it would be less harmful for individual practice and the greater whole of Tibetan Buddhism to stop the practice of this one Dhogyal. He spoke for the greater good. What other motivation can he possibly have? What other benefits is there for him?

If you are truly Gelug, then you may adopt the practice of Kalarupa. If Kalarupa is dead or ineffective, then you may search for other protectors. Otherwise if you have Kalarupa, why is there a need to rely on Dhogyal?  None of the great seats of learning such as in Sakya or Gelug (Ganden, Sera, Depung) have installed Dhogyal as their principal protector, so why start now. This itself says so much.

Since Tsongkapa relied on Kalarupa as his protector and Kalarupa suited Tsongkapa, then we would be wise to follow suit.

Since followers of Tsongkapa follow the same philosophical tenants as he did, same yidams (Guyasamaja, Cakrasambara, Yamentaka and Kakachakra), same vinaya code, then why not also follow Tsongkapa's protector which is Kalarupa. Why do followers of Gelug follow everything as Tsongkapa did to reach his enlightenment and understanding EXCEPT his protector?

If you are a Tsongkapa follower then follow Tsongkapa's practice completely. Be a clean and thorough Gelug.

Zach

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Re: A special tribute to H.E. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2012, 10:17:53 PM »
Thank you Geshe Kelsang for preserving your Spiritual guides teachings in the face of great adversity. :)

On topic posts rather then trolling.  :D

Tenzin Gyatso

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Re: A special tribute to H.E. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2012, 10:37:54 PM »


On topic posts rather then trolling.  :D


Let's not get personal now. I am not trolling. :)

Zach

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Re: A special tribute to H.E. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2012, 10:42:42 PM »


On topic posts rather then trolling.  :D


Let's not get personal now. I am not trolling. :)

Certain speech belongs in certain threads.  :)

Big Uncle

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Re: A special tribute to H.E. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2012, 07:36:23 AM »
It's not too late for Geshe Kelsang to make amends. Make a trip to Dharamsala, request audience with HHDL and apologize. Wouldn't it be better to make friends. Join forces and propagate dharma to even more. One less headache. One less controversy. Just follow what HHDL advices.

Why do you have to worship Shugden. There are so many protectors, just choose another one and you don't don't upset Dalai Lama's great plans for everyone. There's only one Dalai Lama, so choose him. Easy equation.

You are very cute. Unfortunately, we cannot pick and chose our practices. If our Lama has given us a Dharma Protector practice and told us to keep in our hearts, how can we say it is wrong and choose another. You talk like you don't really know how to devote yourself to a Guru. We cannot do that even if the Dalai Lama is our Lama and another Lama has given us his heart practice, Dorje Shugden.

We cannot renounced Dorje Shugden just because the Dalai Lama said so. On what basis do we choose? One Guru cannot be higher than another. From their side, a Lama be more attained than another but in our heart and practice, all our Lamas are Buddhas and all Buddhas are equal. Hence, abiding with Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's advice is the best and the most Dharmic. 

vajratruth

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Re: A special tribute to H.E. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2012, 11:29:52 AM »
Personally I've read books by Geshe Kelsang and he is an amazing scholar. But he is still an ordinary person. So he can be mistaken about the Shugden practice. Why is it he can be right and HHDL is wrong. 

I mean you can't compare the two teachers ok? HHDL is way far ahead in every aspect than Geshe Kelsang. There's a reason HHDL is way ahead, because his thoughts and what he speaks about has much more impact and relevance to many more people. His popularity just grows. That itself tells you how great HHDL is. I mean tens of millions of people all cannot be wrong compared to a couple of hundred Shugden practitioners.

TG, I humbly respect your opinion but I disagree with the basis of your analysis.

There was a time when the entire world thought the earth was flat.  Did that make the earth flat? There was a time when everyone on earth thought the Sun revolved around the Earth. We all know how that "thought" ended.

If you are going by numbers i.e. you extract your "truth" from the highest number of people who subscribe to an assumption, does it not follow that the only correct religion is Islam since it has the highest number of followers? After all "tens of millions of people all cannot be wrong".

I think the real test of Truth lies in the fact that nothing can ever suppress it. The fact the Dorje Shugden practice has not only survived but grown despite an engineered effort by powerful people to discredit it, and to bully DS practitioners into submission says a lot about the deity and the practice.



Ok, the Tibetans are a bit fanatical when it comes to HHDL and I've seen it here in Dharamsala. But they are only a few million (India, Nepal & Tibet). But HHDL is accepted by tens of millions across many continents inclusive of world leaders. Which Lama can do that. Not even Geshe Kelsang.

TG, HHDL has done wonderful things for Buddhism and world peace and he has done so with his position as a Diplomat and Political Leader, not an "ordinary monk". I mean, even Idi Amin had his time on the world stage and directly engaging with world leaders.

Geshe Kelsang on the other hand has commanded his position as a great Buddhist scholar who has caused the great spread of Buddhism and also the spread of a great Protector practice despite not getting support from the CTA and HHDL.


So did you ever think Geshe Kelsang went alittle too far with the protests against Dalai lama? Years back if the Dalai Lama did not escape Tibet, build a relations with the Indian Govt and get land for the Tibetans, there would be no Geshe Kelsang at all. There would be no survival of Tibetan Buddhism. All the centres and lamas around the world exist because of HHDL.

TG, I am glad you talked about HHDL escaping from Tibet. Was it not Dorje Shugden who without doubt was responsible for HHDL SAFELY escaping Tibet? Had it not been for the compassionate and divine help of Dorje Shugden and the deity's utter loyalty to HHDL, would HHDL have escaped unscathed to see to the "survival of Tibetan Buddhism"?

I also must add that had Dorje Shugden wanted to harm HHDL, the deity would have have had to do anything. Just leave it to the state oracle to provide a wrong advise perhaps.


Don't you think Geshe Kelsang and the other Lamas like him should be grateful to HHDL and loyal? Be grateful should be a result of practice of higher tantras right? At least sutras. So what is the big deal if they give up Shugden and pick the HHDL?

Being grateful is to keep the samaya with the Guru clean at all cost. being grateful is not to over turn the vows you take when it is no longer convenient. Being grateful is to be true to your belief.

So I personally think Geshe Kelsang is mistaken.