its not the ban, its the people

[Ensapa]

Hey guys,

Perhaps HHDL is trying to change this, but I found this by chance on my facebook:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamyang_Norbu

Jamyang Norbu is also critical of the role of religion in the Tibetan exile community,[7] and of its Western benefactors whom, he argues, see Tibetans one-dimensionally.[8] He calls the "New Age perception of Tibet... that this even materialist west will be saved by the spiritualism of the Tibetan Buddhists" "total nonsense."[9] He said of a scene from the American film Seven Years in Tibet where Tibetan monks rescue earthworms from a construction site, that Tibetan viewers would find it ridiculous.[10] In a 2005 article for the New Humanist, he recalled an outbreak of rabies in 1983 Dharamsala: when he advocated that a Tibetan woman get a rabies shot instead of seeing a shaman, he was shunned in the community as a "nonbeliever." He lamented, "We are frankly, a people still in thrall to ignorance and superstition, which far from declining with the years seems to be gaining new life and impetus with foreign sponsorship and encouragement."[7]

If the real problem is not really the ban, but the people, how would you go changing them? the Ban merely brought up a long-standing issue to the surface. This is the real issue that needs to be addressed that has been long ignored. What do you think?

[Zach]

De-cultralise the Dharma.

[triesa]

Dharma should never be viewed as pure blind faith, it must not be based on superstitions as the ground will not be strong enough to move forward.

The people will reflect what true dharma is if they sincerely practise the teachings "from the heart", kindness, care and compassion will be reflected in their behaviour which is a good yardstick for measurement.

[Ensapa]

Dharma should never be viewed as pure blind faith, it must not be based on superstitions as the ground will not be strong enough to move forward.

The people will reflect what true dharma is if they sincerely practise the teachings "from the heart", kindness, care and compassion will be reflected in their behaviour which is a good yardstick for measurement.

Sadly when Dharma is taken as cultural belief, these sort of things happen. This shows that the behaviors of the Tibetan people are not the fault of the Dalai Lama or the ban, but is actually something embedded deep in them that they need to face and change. The Dalai Lama cannot obviously tell them to change overnight....so we could infer that the ban's purpose is to bring this to light so that it can be solved.

The ostracizing of people should not happen in the first place, even with the ban in place but it happening shows that there is a much deeper issue that plagues the Tibetans and prevent them from going forward. Maybe it is time we look at the situation on a whole for now.

[beggar]

The culture of Tibet necessarily includes their religion and spiritual beliefs. Buddhism is an integral part of their life, which has led to the mixing of spirituality and secular affairs. It is hard to progress on a secular level when all their actions and welfare are determined by spiritual edicts. For centuries, the Tibetans have operated out of regarding spirituality before secular affairs - this is both good and bad, for they develop other qualities that the rest of the world do not, live by religious mores. It is bad because it makes them very isolated, and operate in a very limited way that does not take into consideration secular mores and standards competitive with the modern world.

In this particular case, the ban on Dorje Shugden is linked so inextricably with all aspects of a Tibetan's daily life - his voting rights, welfare, education, identification documents hinge on whether he practices Dorje Shugden or not. But then what can you expect when affairs of the church are so much linked to affairs of the state.

[harrynephew]

The culture of Tibet necessarily includes their religion and spiritual beliefs. Buddhism is an integral part of their life, which has led to the mixing of spirituality and secular affairs. It is hard to progress on a secular level when all their actions and welfare are determined by spiritual edicts. For centuries, the Tibetans have operated out of regarding spirituality before secular affairs - this is both good and bad, for they develop other qualities that the rest of the world do not, live by religious mores. It is bad because it makes them very isolated, and operate in a very limited way that does not take into consideration secular mores and standards competitive with the modern world.

In this particular case, the ban on Dorje Shugden is linked so inextricably with all aspects of a Tibetan's daily life - his voting rights, welfare, education, identification documents hinge on whether he practices Dorje Shugden or not. But then what can you expect when affairs of the church are so much linked to affairs of the state.

I like what u just said Beggar. The only difference here is that the impact that the TGIE/CTA has in terms of the media is limited when compared to the church. Tibet has been independant on its on adopting a closed door concept all this while and has little to no exposure to the outside world.

HHDL has in his own right and also efforts made a huge outreach to the world via the media during his life in exile and this has bridged alot of Tibet's good and bad in the world. But what HHDL has sparked off in the Tibetan community has made many to suffer.

We need to bring this out to the world and make a change! A change in ourselves(more loving and compassionate) and a change in the people!

[yontenjamyang]

The culture of Tibet necessarily includes their religion and spiritual beliefs. Buddhism is an integral part of their life, which has led to the mixing of spirituality and secular affairs./quote]

That is why I think forum like this plays and important role in changing the thinking of the Tibetan people. Through engagement in debates and listening to others view without stoning others' houses, the Tibetan people can progress and advance as people of the modern world with good understanding and practice of the Dharma.

If one has a good understanding of the Dharma, then all this won't happen. It is very ironic that the ban has exposed this lack of understanding and practice of the Dharma of these people.

[Ensapa]

Buddhism is a way of life, but i do not see this integrated in their lives or culture with this sort of behavior. Why are they calling themselves Buddhist but do actions that are contrary to Buddhism?

There is nothing wrong with mixing religion and secular affairs if there is a balance and there is clarity. Didint Buddhism teach us to be progressive, adopt and change when necessary and do away with old customs when they are no longer relevant? If the secular world has a better solution, why are they not applying it and instead still stick to and insist on traditional methods that may or may not work? To not cling on to things but if there's a better version, use it?

CTA is now being scruntinzed by the world, due to all the publicity that they generated for themselves...and the world is watching. If they slip, they will lose the support of the international community for Tibet's freedom... now it is time for them to change and they need to prove it by behaving properly and wake up and realize that the ban is only for attending teachings -- not segregating people and harming others.

[Big Uncle]

Tibetans are not really an educated lot and the majority of education occurs mainly in the great monasteries and at the hands of the great Lamas. Many of their beliefs are a result of faith and centuries of stories of the greatness of these Lamas. Times have changed but many still cling to the same 'views' on Buddhism.

However, the Lamas are incredibly compassionate and skillful, many have remained focused on the teachings and some being in the west, are able to deliver the full presentation of the Buddha's teachings to the people that were exclusively meant for monastics only in the past. However, being in exile, the Tibetans are going through a transition of increasing literacy rates and influx of foreign interests in the Dharma and this has brought on fresh perspective of the Dharma. Hence, it is a matter of education and exposure.

In any religion, there will always be superstition and folk beliefs. Buddhism in the Tibetan tradition is no exception. Due to the devotion needed to achieve real progress all the path, this can sometimes be misinterpreted as fanaticism. Hence, medieval-like bans that would not work in any other culture is being enforced with great zeal.

[michaela]

In analyzing the situation and before judging that mixing "spirituality and secularity" is not preferable, perhaps we should clarify, what do we mean by "Spirituality" and "superstition."  Spirituality is different from superstition.  According to Merriam Webster Dictionary:

spirituality means  "sensitivity or attachment to religious values." 

Superstition means "a belief or practice resulting from ignorance, fear of the unknown, trust in magic or chance, or a false conception of causation."

I think going to the shaman to treat rabies seems to me appears to be superstition and not spirituality.

Mixing spirituality with secular activities as long as it does not result in religious discrimination, can have a positive effects to some degree.  Historical references to many Dharma kings of the past can easily strengthen this claim.     

[Ensapa]

Tibetans are not really an educated lot and the majority of education occurs mainly in the great monasteries and at the hands of the great Lamas. Many of their beliefs are a result of faith and centuries of stories of the greatness of these Lamas. Times have changed but many still cling to the same 'views' on Buddhism.

However, the Lamas are incredibly compassionate and skillful, many have remained focused on the teachings and some being in the west, are able to deliver the full presentation of the Buddha's teachings to the people that were exclusively meant for monastics only in the past. However, being in exile, the Tibetans are going through a transition of increasing literacy rates and influx of foreign interests in the Dharma and this has brought on fresh perspective of the Dharma. Hence, it is a matter of education and exposure.

In any religion, there will always be superstition and folk beliefs. Buddhism in the Tibetan tradition is no exception. Due to the devotion needed to achieve real progress all the path, this can sometimes be misinterpreted as fanaticism. Hence, medieval-like bans that would not work in any other culture is being enforced with great zeal.

Perhaps it is now that the Dalai Lama feels the need to separate them as it has gone to a level where people are no longer thinking in a Buddhist way? The "negative" results of the ban is not directly due to the ban but because of how these people reacted to it. If they did not add their own interpretation towards the ban, that is to segregate the people and to discriminate against the practitioners, I do not see anything majorly wrong with it.

But it is due to the overzealousness of the CTA officials in handling the ban that many unfortunate results happened. To go so far as to make the monks break their vinaya vows just to comply with a political side is a huge, huge mistake that will lead to the CTA's downfall due to the huge amount of negative karma incurred. Unless the law of karma is wrong, I do not think that Tibet will regain independence as a result of these acts.

Perhaps it might seem odd that the Dalai Lama has been keeping quiet on this and not acting on it…but lets not forget that his bigger agenda and task is to spread the Dharma far and wide. In addition to that, he needs to overturn the backward mentality of the Tibetans and that cannot happen overnight, and it does take an action with a huge impact in order to do this.

If the ban was not enacted, the Tibetans would not have been open to having the Dalai Lama resign to being head of state. Many would be committing suicide or some dramatic act in an effort to pressure the Dalai Lama from not resigning. That effect we can see quite clearly if we understand the nature of the Tibetan people.

[pgdharma]

Even though it is alright to mix religion with secular matters as long as it is balance and does not have religious discrimination, Dharma should not be based on blind faith, beliefs and superstitions. It should be practiced with an open mind filled with compassion and wisdom.

How to go about with the change? Tibetans are generally not very educated, quite backwards and do not have much exposures to the outside world thus education and exposures are therefore very important.  Website like this plays an important part in changing the thinking of the Tibetans and gets them exposed to the outside world.  It can help them understand the dharma better, share their views and make them think logically with an open mind.

[ilikeshugden]

I was very amused when I read this post. No offense to any Tibetans but when I read this post it made me think that so many Tibetans are living in a state of pure ignorance. When I saw the part about rabies, a person that has a sense of basic logic should know that it would be better for that lady to get a rabies shot rather than go to a shaman. While this is superficially funny, in reality it is very sad. It is no wonder that the Tibetan community is so backward and that there are no famous Tibetan lay people in the world. There are no well known Tibetan scientists or engineers or businessmen. 
 
So, from this post, I see that the Tibetan community is just filled with ignorant people and that is why the ban is still enforced. It is still enforced because the Tibetans are not fighting for their own right to practice Dorje Shugden. They are just blindly following the words of His Holiness the Dalai Lama. From all the footage I see about protests, I don't see many Tibetans, I see a lot of westerners! And when there are Tibetans, they are screaming at the protestors and generally do not behave very well. Tibetans shouldlook at themselves and think how they want the world to perceive them. Superstitious and ignorant? Excommunicating people who believe in different things? What they portray, people will perceive.

[Ensapa]

Instead of focusing on the ban, the CTA should really focus on issues such as these and educate the people there. There are so many things that CTA can work to improve on, such as for once, introducing classes of science and logic as well as encouraging the people to learn and to find out about modern society instead of encouraging old and backwards habits that does not really serve to improve whatever situation that is happening in Dharamsala. If the CTA and the Tibetans still operate with this mentality, it is pretty clear that they are not interested in progress, but only preserving the way of life that was before (including all the barbaric acts of punishments on criminals, the serf system and the banning of lamas and buddhist traditions that challenge the authority of the central land. It has happened before and the Tibetan government never learned their mistakes.

Proof? the Dorje Shugden ban is proof that they do want things run the way they were before China stepped in. they do not mind catching up with the rest of the world as long as the  ministers get their positions and name back and the Tibetans and allowed to do whatever they want as long as it does not get in the way of the government. The ban itself contradicts democracy and freedom that the CTA keeps talking about all the time, and should be stopped if they are serious in improving the situation. As long as the ban is on and China is aware, I doubt that there will be much progress or results with talks to get Tibet back mainly because the mentality and energy generated from the ban repels China away from them and China will not want to talk to people 8that they cannot look up to. That's huma nature, and CTA has to work against it by 1) being sucessful and develop Dharamsala into a progressive place 2) lift the ban and apologize to all Shugdenpas and to China. Either way would be good, but they wont be doing that anytime soon.

[Positive Change]

Well... I certainly believe it was never about THE ban per se. It was always about how the people reacted to the ban. The ban is merely a ban if there was no sway either side. It would then actually be more of a rule everyone followed as opposed to something that was "banned".

Whether the ban was imposed by HHDL to "spark" contemplation, debate and healthy reverberations within ourselves is still very much a bone of contention to some and the holy grail to others. What one can perceive through the "results" which ensued are:

1. Greater publicity of Dorje Shugden
2. Potential spread of Dorje Shugden practice in a country otherwise impossible to impregnate. With a population of 1.35 billion people which makes up to about 19.17% of the world's population.
3. Instilling a stronger and renewed support of Dorje Shugden from practitioners who will "fight" to keep their practice.
4. Compelling one to truly contemplate and ground oneself and not merely have the herd mentality. The very basis in forming proper foundations in one's practice and eliminating flippancy. When one is given the chance to "take sides", it is then that the true worth of something potentially could be lost arises.

We Dorje Shugden practitioners should lead by example, in that we need to educate and disseminate, correct and accurate information on The Protector of Our Time and not take arms or fight with force or somewhat less Dharmic means. Our practice is not merely the times when we do our prayers/sadhanas but extended out beyond those insular moments. Our true practice is, in my opinion, how we actually deal with the ban and how we bring about the lifting of the ban through peaceful means, through the elimination of ignorance and doubt using the "sword of wisdom". Dorje Shugden is, after all, an emanation of Manjushri!