The Dalai Lama DID NOT SAY...

[Lineageholder]

Have u heard the oracle of Dorje Shugden denouncing the Dalai Lama even once?

I hope you are not like Moose on phayul who dodges, please answer the question. Thank you.

I don't have any contact with oracles, so I wouldn't know.

[Ensapa]

I'm sorry, my friend, but that doesn't make any sense either.  The Guru scolds students who can take it because he wants to purify them of negative karma and their ability to receive the wrathful blessings of Guru Heruka because of their faith is the quickest way to do it.  Dorje Shugden is a Buddha, he doesn't need to purify negative karma so he doesn't need to be treated harshly.

The evidence is that the Dalai Lama relies on superstition.  He's not using Dorje Shugden to do anything - he only disparages the lineage of his Gelugpa Gurus and says that they were wrong.  The Dalai Lama knows that people have blind faith in him and they will follow what he says.  His intention to destroy Dorje Shugden practice is real, based on all the evidence.

There's no evidence that the Dalai Lama has had to endure any threats, apart from the ones that he falsely accuses Dorje Shugden practitioners of making. If he's a Buddha, they don't bother him anyway.  You can't have your cake and eat it, one minute claiming that the Dalai Lama is a Buddha but then claiming that he's under pressure from various threats!  The two don't go together.

Furthermore, if the Dalai Lama really is a pure Spiritual Teacher, let alone a Buddha, he would never allow Dharma to become mixed with politics in the way that he has done and would never use his position to destroy a pure spiritual tradition.  Even if threatened, he would act in accordance with Dharma.   We don't make excuses for delusions, claiming that there is some 'bigger picture' for having them - when you see faults you need to recognise them as such, especially when their recognition is supported by reason.  Practising pure view is not about denying conventional truths appearing to valid minds.

Probably this is enough said on this topic, thanks at least for considering my reasons.

when your mind is closed, nothing makes sense.

even if the teacher will scold to purify a students' karma, he will obviously only do it to students who are able to take it and not run away instead. You dont see him doing to every single student he has, even though some of them may have even heavier karma than the one they choose to mainfest wrath to, but if they are not prepared or will go on a rampage after the treatment, he will obviously not manifest wrath to them.

HHDL is using reasons that are too weak for any substancial reasons to support the ban. I dont see them as superstitious. obviously you have not read HHDL's website and his reasons, as well as various documents that is supposedly "proof" of Dorje Shugden being "bad", including rain of brimstone fire, the yellow book and so on to understand the nature of the ban. the yellow book was misinterpreted and the rain was not really substancial in talking about DS. Understanding these documents give us the key to refute claims that DS is bad.

There are various books who reveal threats and pressure that was placed on the Dalai Lama. One of the books that reveal this is Buddhas not smiling where a certain party told him that if their demands were not met, bloodshed will happen. If you have not been reading up, there are various groups in Dharamsala and Tibet that are asking and demanding that the Dalai Lama do more for Tibetan independence, aka give the permission for a war to attack China. If HHDL caved in to these demands, world war 3 would really start.

[Ratna Shugden]

In the entire history of Buddhism, are there any Spiritual Guides who were considered by many as emanations of Buddhas/Bodhisattvas/Enlightened Dharma Protectors, whose actions bought great suffering to the masses for a period of time which lead to them experiencing greater happiness later?

If there is, can we use it as a precedent to fall back on in judging this issue?

[Ensapa]

In the entire history of Buddhism, are there any Spiritual Guides who were considered by many as emanations of Buddhas/Bodhisattvas/Enlightened Dharma Protectors, whose actions bought great suffering to the masses for a period of time which lead to them experiencing greater happiness later?

If there is, can we use it as a precedent to fall back on in judging this issue?

there is Ra Lotsawa who killed many people using his tantric powers, the 5th Dalai Lama who took control of Tibet via the Dzungzars and took over the Karmpa's place as the secular head, Songtsen Gampo who also waged wars in  Tibet (and according to chinese sources harassed the nearby chinese kingdom until they gave him wencheng for marrige) as well. Even Dorje Shugden himself sent out warnings against lamas who are messing up Gelug's teachings as a warning which caused an uproar as well as plenty of misunderstandings. There is also Virupa who made the sun stop for 3 days and night s, basically causing everyone in the kingdom to suffer until they prayed to Avalokiteshvara.

If we can accept Dorje Shugden's wrathful actions, why cant we accept the Dalai Lama's? Why are we having dualistic thinking and selectiveness here???

[Dolce Vita]

There are so many questions left unanswered, instead of trying to find the answer, practice what Lamrim teaches us. Be devoted to our guru, listen and follow our guru's instruction. Practice what is taught in Buddhism, ie, respect, humble, loving, caring, compassionate and all other good qualities.

I feel sad and sorry for the treatment DS practitioners are given by their own government, all DS practitioners should unite together and show them with out actions who DS practitioners are. We are a group of people who is devoted to our guru, our protector. We do not create disharmony, we only want peace. The way ds.com speaks up for the rest of the DS practitioners is an example we should follow, not trying to provoke disharmony or disrespect to others but merely focus on the goodness of DS and DS practitioners. To me, ds.com team is the real practitioners of Buddha's teachings.

[bambi]

It is true what Namdrol has said. The Dalai Lama did not say nor did those things as mentioned. As usual, people take words out of context and make it into something huge so that they can get some benefits out of the whole situations. As Buddhist practitioners, we should be practicing compassion, instead monks were beaten, Tibetan people ostracized, being outcasts, etc. I pray that the truth will be known soon to lift the doubts in these people's mind.

[Carpenter]

Many practitioner tend to twist the Lama’s teaching / talk to suit their level of mind and understanding, as when Dalai Lama said his guru is wrong, people would understand it as slandering your teacher / stoning his house, when they don’t know the situation, ‘assuming’ will come into their mind, they assume what they done was correct, and sad to say that, a banning issue has became the show of their egoness and superiority.

[pgdharma]

As we all know,  HHDL is an emanation of the Buddha of Compassion. It must be very painful for him to see the results and effects of his ban. Yet he is not doing anything about it. Why? I believe this is an act of a great being to benefit many at the expense of a few.

To quote Positive Change: "HHDL has and is still bearing much hardship for the sake of the Dharma to grow and spread, and to help him along of all the Dharma protectors, he chose Dorje Shugden because he is the only enlightened protector compassionate enough to go through all of the hardships that HHDL is putting him through. This action just shows who Dorje Shugden really is: an extremely compassionate Buddha."

There are so many questions left unanswered and it is beyond our level to understand. So let us look at it from Positive Change angle. Let us not slander HHDL for his actions in causing so much pain and sufferings amongst DS practitioners. We should look at a bigger picture.

[Jessie Fong]

The Dalai Lama said to DS practitioners to leave their monastery and practice on their own but He did not ask for killings to take place, He did not say burn holy images of Dorje Shugden ... so why did these events take place?  Why do so many people take things out of context?  So that they can get the limelight? For their own selfish benefit?

May the truth be known to lift the clouds of doubts in people's mind.

[Lineageholder]

If we can accept Dorje Shugden's wrathful actions, why cant we accept the Dalai Lama's? Why are we having dualistic thinking and selectiveness here???

Because there's a big difference.  Great Masters of the past have acted wrathfully to dispel obstacles to the teachings whereas the Dalai Lama's actions are destroying the teachings.

Can you think of any Buddhist master of the past or present who has said that their Gurus are wrong?  This is a unique mistake by the Dalai Lama that has no benefit whatsoever.

[Tenzin Gyatso]

Have u heard the oracle of Dorje Shugden denouncing the Dalai Lama even once?

I hope you are not like Moose on phayul who dodges, please answer the question. Thank you.

I don't have any contact with oracles, so I wouldn't know.

Your Geshe Kelsang's long life prayer composed by the so called protector shugden through an oracle. So you may not know of oracles directly, but you are using something the oracle gave your organization.
So you can assume oracles are good.

Re the Shugden oracle, they take trance of Shugden spirit, so it can never compare to Tema or Gadong oracles of Dharamsala. Shugden being a spirit of course the oracle of shugden is taking trance of spirit. So the long life prayer to Geshe Kelsang used throughout NKT centres around the world was composed by a spirit. Yet a member of NKT here can say they don't know anything of oracles.

[Zach]

Are you Tibetan Tenzin ? 

[Lineageholder]

Your Geshe Kelsang's long life prayer composed by the so called protector shugden through an oracle. So you may not know of oracles directly, but you are using something the oracle gave your organization.
So you can assume oracles are good.

Those long life prayers are beautiful, but that's no reason to assume that oracles are good.  For example, if the oracles you mentioned are so great, how has the Dalai Lama made so many mistakes by following their advice?  They haven't contributed anything positive as far as I can see.

I personally think it is better to rely on wisdom than to rely on oracles, but each tradition has its own culture.

[Tenzin Gyatso]

Your Geshe Kelsang's long life prayer composed by the so called protector shugden through an oracle. So you may not know of oracles directly, but you are using something the oracle gave your organization.
So you can assume oracles are good.

Those long life prayers are beautiful, but that's no reason to assume that oracles are good.  For example, if the oracles you mentioned are so great, how has the Dalai Lama made so many mistakes by following their advice?  They haven't contributed anything positive as far as I can see.

I personally think it is better to rely on wisdom than to rely on oracles, but each tradition has its own culture.

LH, I am with you. I am not much into oracles either. But then most Westerners who join Tibetan Buddhism do not accept but that does not mean Westerners are right.   

How can something like a oracle that is not good create something beautiful and effective? So is Geshe Kelsang Gyatso mistaken for allowing this long life prayer to be used? Long life prayers are said to generate the energy to increase the lamas life from the side of the students. So if Shugden composed it and to top it off through an oracle, will it have power and it's desired effect? I don't think so.

So who has the wisdom to compose a long life prayer for Geshe Kelsang?

I am not agreeable to HHDL using oracles but he does. As for no good came of it, I have not read the thousands of prophecies spoken by Nechung for hundreds of years to come to that conclusion yet.

[Zhalmed Pawo]

Uh. This seems to be a sort of the 258:th NKT and tulkus and oracles session here.

Please do not continue. I shall, within two days I hope, write something that hopefully clarifies it all.

But if you wish to continue, by all means do so. Beating a plastic toy horse is a good method. For something.