Author Topic: Why is it that "the Guru can do NO wrong" ?  (Read 13184 times)

hope rainbow

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Re: Why is it that "the Guru can do NO wrong" ?
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2012, 06:06:14 PM »
Well, it depends how you want to look at a particular Lama/Guru. If you are looking at the Lama as a worldly figure or for a worldly motivation, then the Guru can do wrong. Hence, people are unable to follow through their spiritual path because they only have worldly ambitions. Our little minds can only fit a worldly or a spiritual ambition. People start by feeling that the worldly ambition does not bring them happiness and so they seek a spiritual path or a Lama to guide them.

So, there is a sort of renunciation even at the beginning and one would amass the merits necessary to come to progress on. Having found a Lama, we strive to maintain our relationship by deepening our spiritual commitment and conviction by absorbing his teachings and emanating them through our actions. The more we do it, the more merits we collect. When the Guru gives instructions directly or indirectly on how to progress. We take them to heart and doing that bring us closer to enlightenment.

When we keep our promises to our Lama (no matter how trivial the promises are), we create the cause to uphold our vows especially those that are the highest - the Bodhisattva and Tantric Vows. This is a speed train up to full Enlightenment. Hence, the Lama guides us with instructions that challenges and pushes us. Therefore, the Lama can do no wrong.

Thank you BU for this post.
I especially like it that you mention renunciation.
When we lack a mind of renunciation, it means that we still put the mundane above the ultra-mundane, and when we do that it makes it extremely difficult for us to see our Guru as a Buddha, especially when we get challenged by our Guru.

The way we project our Guru denotes of how deeply seated our mind of renunciation is.

diamond girl

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Re: Why is it that "the Guru can do NO wrong" ?
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2012, 10:43:19 AM »
There are two versus from the Fifty Stanzas on the Spiritual Teacher by Aryashura, which I think applies here:

"In order for the words of honor of neither the spiritual teacher nor the disciple to degenerate, there must be mutual examination beforehand to determine if each can brave a teacher-disciple relationship."

"A disciple with sense should not accept as his spiritual teacher someone who lacks compassion or who is angersome, vicious or arrogant, possessive, undisciplined or boasts of his knowledge."
 
In line with what the other have commented here, these two versus put it clearly that if you have followed these versus you should not have doubt in your mind because you have taken responsibility to establish your teacher-disciple relationship. And it is through such "due diligence" you choose your Teacher. So, when you doubt your teacher, you obviously doubt yourself, right?

I am sure even Lamas can make mistakes such as forgetting a telephone number or someone's name, small matters. They are "human" form too. But, they will not make mistakes for our spiritual path and growth. They operate out of compassion and live their lives to benefit others. Gurus take our karma very seriously, they will not make mistakes.

Positive Change

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Re: Why is it that "the Guru can do NO wrong" ?
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2012, 05:23:59 AM »
Quote
Thank you BU for this post.
I especially like it that you mention renunciation.
When we lack a mind of renunciation, it means that we still put the mundane above the ultra-mundane, and when we do that it makes it extremely difficult for us to see our Guru as a Buddha, especially when we get challenged by our Guru.

The way we project our Guru denotes of how deeply seated our mind of renunciation is.

A very interesting and very true statement. It is our very deluded state of mind which resulted from the lack of renunciation which is one of the root causes.

Very simply put, for whatever reasons, if we hold on to something that makes us unhappy, be it through habituations, laziness, ignorance or the like, how can we "see" what is actually "good" for us. We are too busy chasing our tails so to speak. Hence it is our Guru that pushes all our buttons to make us realize and see this within ourselves, sometimes at the sake of being perceived wrongly by the student which makes them "run".

You might ask why would a Guru make their student run? Well, if the student stays in the same deluded mind, the student will create more negative karma being in the presence of the Guru and thus it is better for the student to be"away" and not hurt themselves more. This is truest compassion at work! It is NOT that the Guru wants the student to leave but it is the lesser of two evils!

So next time you see or hear a student running away or leaving a center where a teacher resides, do stop and think for a moment the deeper motivation behind it and not be so eager to pounce on the Guru and accuse the Guru of being wrong. I am sure it is a very difficult and hard decision for a Guru to make. I liken it to a parent who knows if he/she keeps the child close, the child would turn out to be a spoilt brat where else if he/she lets go, there is a possibility the child would learn to stand on its own two feet... not an easy decision as you can see...

Amitabha

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Re: Why is it that "the Guru can do NO wrong" ?
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2012, 12:55:25 PM »
It is for your own purification. unlike other tradition, vajrayana tradition is a little different since the past as the guru is traditionally under critical selection and is consecrated from guru to guru. In vajrayana tradition, the students have to bow the guru first and not to the buddha when entering the monastry. Unless you are of high meditative grading, you will not truly know whether is it your wrong or guru improper.  ;D

vajrastorm

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Re: Why is it that "the Guru can do NO wrong" ?
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2012, 07:07:29 AM »
In the Lamrim, under "Proper Reliance on the Spiritual Guide", we are told that we should see our Guru as a Buddha. Only then can we progress swiftly on the Path. Guru devotion is a swift Path. When we have full faith in the Guru and total guru devotion, we will trust ourselves to the skillful ways of the Guru to assassinate our ego, our root delusion, and to destroy our self-grasping, the root cause of our suffering.

 Our Guru, as Buddha, is unerring and acts from a pure mind of Bodhicitta. It's only from our side, with our gross delusions and negative perceptions that we see him as making mistakes and having faults. Thus when He gives me the practice of Dorje Shugden, I know that it is all about benefitting me and all mother sentient beings and to help me on the Path. I trust him unwaveringly and I trust the King unwaveringly, just as my Guru trusts his Guru and the King unwaveringly.

hope rainbow

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Re: Why is it that "the Guru can do NO wrong" ?
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2012, 11:37:27 AM »
A mind of Bodhicitta can do no wrong.
A Guru can do no wrong.

Can a Guru hurt his students? NO
Only the students do hurt themselves.

Can a bodhisattva make "mistakes"? Yes
Are actions of a bodhisattva arising from carelessness? No
Are actions of a bodhisattva arising from escaping situations? No
Are actions of a bodhisattva arising from desire or hatred? No
Are actions of a bodhisattva arising from self-grasping? No
Are actions of a bodhisattva arising from procrastination? No
Are actions of a bodhisattva arising from nonchalance? No
Are they arising from bodhicitta? Yes
Thus can a bodhisattva make mistakes? No


Midakpa

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Re: Why is it that "the Guru can do NO wrong" ?
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2012, 11:08:48 PM »
In a book entitled "The Kindness of the Guru" (1993), there are two talks given by Lama Zopa Rinpoche, one is about "Seeing the guru as a Buddha" and the other is on "The blessings of the guru". Both talks are about guru devotion. Lama Zopa stresses guru devotion as the key to having success in one's practice. Guru devotion involves seeing the guru as a Buddha. In the Lamrim Chenmo, Lama Tsongkhapa explains the two ways to see the guru as Buddha. The first way is to train your mind to see the qualities of the guru; the second is to see the guru's mistakes, but use them to develop devotion.

Why do we need to see the guru as Buddha? Because we want profit and do not want loss. The "profit" is all the aims of the small, intermediate and great scopes of the Lamrim, depending on which category we belong to.

Why is the practice of guru devotion so important? Lama Zopa says "Everything, from the happiness of this life to enlightenment, depends on the root of guru devotion. Guru devotion is essential for the completion of listening, reflecting, and meditation practice." It is important to remember that mistakes in the practice of guru devotion can result in mistakes in one's practice. Therefore, one must be determined not to make the same mistakes again and make the determination to practice guru devotion correctly.

Midakpa

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Re: Why is it that "the Guru can do NO wrong" ?
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2012, 12:21:46 AM »
I'd like to quote several verses from a text used by Lama Zopa Rinpoche to teach guru devotion in his talk on "The Blessings of the Guru" in 1986 in Dharamsala. I find it helpful in countering wrong views regarding the actions of the guru. This is a method practiced by Kagyu lamas, which involves looking at the guru's "mistakes", understanding them and developing guru devotion from them:

"Whatever actions are done by the qualified,
precious guru, all are good;
Whatever actions are done, all are quality.

Even the action of a butcher or killing human
beings is meaningful and good. It is definite that
sentient beings are guided with compassion."

Here, "killing human beings" refers to transferring the consciousness of an evil-doer to a pure realm. This is done by using tantric methods, for eg. during wrathful fire pujas.

"Even the action of degenerating moral conduct is
receiving and increasing qualities. It is showing the
unification of method and wisdom."

Here, "... receiving and increasing qualities" refers to realizations of the tantric path, to cutting off quickly the dualistic view and achieving the Vajradhara state. Or it could be understood as guiding sentient beings by subduing their minds - their disturbing thoughts, attachments etc., and developing their realizations of the path. The "unification of method and wisdom" means "seeing the guru as the same as Vajrabhairava father-mother, Heruka father-mother or Vajradhara father-mother. Looking at the guru's actions in pure form stops any impure appearance; it stops heresy and wrong perceptions, which are great obstacles to the graduated path to enlightenment."

"Even the action of cheating others with lies is
guiding all sentient beings in the path to liberation with
one of the various means of method and wisdom."

Even the action of stealing is a way to transform
others' possessions into merit. It is a method to
pacify the poverty of living beings."

Here, it means that the possessions are used to accumulate merit for those sentient beings and thus guide them.

"Even the action of scolding is wrathful mantra.
It definitely eliminates obstacles.
Even the action of beating is a blessing.
Since it brings all realizations, the devoted are satisfied and joyful.

Even the action of killing a hundred people at one
time is simply the action of Buddha benefiting sentient beings.

Even the action of enjoying a hundred princesses is
the trancendental wisdom of great bliss - mahamudra."

Gyalwa Ensapa said:

"In short, whether great or small realization arises is
due to whether one has meditated with great or small devotion."

H.H. the Dalai Lama says that here, "meditated" means remembering the qualities of the guru, which causes devotion to arise, and remembering his kindness, which causes respect to arise.

To some disciples, the practice of guru devotion is a heart practice and brings quick results.




Reena Searl

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Re: Why is it that "the Guru can do NO wrong" ?
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2012, 09:59:21 AM »
The more we do it, the more merits we collect. When the Guru gives instructions directly or indirectly on how to progress. We take them to heart and doing that bring us closer to enlightenment.

When we keep our promises to our Lama (no matter how trivial the promises are), we create the cause to uphold our vows especially those that are the highest - the Bodhisattva and Tantric Vows. This is a speed train up to full Enlightenment. Hence, the Lama guides us with instructions that challenges and pushes us. Therefore, the Lama can do no wrong.

Thank you Big Uncle for the above quote.
Practice guru devotion strongly with faith, will see the Guru do NO wrong.

Q

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Re: Why is it that "the Guru can do NO wrong" ?
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2012, 06:56:22 PM »
It is often said, especially in the Vajrayana tradition, that the Guru can do NO wrong.

Are there some instances where the Guru could have made a mistake or error ...

Or is it in a particular context that this statement is ALWAYS correct?

That depends on what Guru you're talking about lol! Nowadays, there's a lot of bogus (sry to say) Gurus around.

However, if one has checked the Guru, found that the Guru is from a pure and unbroken lineage, seen the Guru's actions no matter how outrages actually brings benefit rather than harm... then that Guru is true.

The easiest way to understand how a Guru works to bring the Dharma to his students is by watching or reading biographies of great masters. Chogyam Trugpa Rinpoche's movie is an excellent way of understanding how sometimes our Guru may appear unconventional but if checked properly, they are acting purely out of compassion, and teaching through realizations.

Once we've checked out our Guru and decided that he will be our guiding path to liberation... That Guru can never be wrong, no matter what. There is no instances that can make the Guru wrong. Every instruction given by the Guru is always right, and in any case the result comes out the opposite is always due to the student's failure to carry out the Guru's instruction correctly and perfectly.

Rinchen

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Re: Why is it that "the Guru can do NO wrong" ?
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2016, 06:18:31 PM »
Well, it depends how you want to look at a particular Lama/Guru. If you are looking at the Lama as a worldly figure or for a worldly motivation, then the Guru can do wrong. Hence, people are unable to follow through their spiritual path because they only have worldly ambitions. Our little minds can only fit a worldly or a spiritual ambition. People start by feeling that the worldly ambition does not bring them happiness and so they seek a spiritual path or a Lama to guide them.

So, there is a sort of renunciation even at the beginning and one would amass the merits necessary to come to progress on. Having found a Lama, we strive to maintain our relationship by deepening our spiritual commitment and conviction by absorbing his teachings and emanating them through our actions. The more we do it, the more merits we collect. When the Guru gives instructions directly or indirectly on how to progress. We take them to heart and doing that bring us closer to enlightenment.

When we keep our promises to our Lama (no matter how trivial the promises are), we create the cause to uphold our vows especially those that are the highest - the Bodhisattva and Tantric Vows. This is a speed train up to full Enlightenment. Hence, the Lama guides us with instructions that challenges and pushes us. Therefore, the Lama can do no wrong.

What Big Uncle have said is really true. It ultimately falls back on us to 'judge' if the Guru can make mistakes or not. A guru is someone that helps us to push all our buttons at the same time to see if we will explode or not. Even when we explode, what we are going to do about it and how we deal with the situation shows how our minds are like. There are times that we will feel like giving up because the battle to kick our inner demons are just too much. But it is the constant guidance of the guru and the love that is being showed to us, we will become a better person that the guru see we have the potential to be. It is only when we consistently remember this and think that way that we will be able to push ourselves further to get the results that we wish to achieve.

What Vajratruth said above about "To even think of whether the someone is "right" or "wrong" is to make a judgement on a matter, with reference to the Self. This thinking therefore reinforces ego-centricity because the Self remains in the equation." is very true as well. It shows that whatever it is, it is all a sense of perception that we have. To even have a 'right' or 'wrong' it shows that our minds are fickle. When situations are good, we think that it is 'right'. But when things do not go our way, we will think that what is happening is 'wrong'.

The guru's actions are to help us push ourselves to do more and achieve what we hope to be able to achieve in the long run. If we see things in a short term view that will make us feel devastated and feel as though that the Guru is picking on us. But if we look at the bigger picture, we can only be grateful for our Guru to be pushing us in this manner that will make us grow into a better person. To be able to receive more and achieve more.

Tracy

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Re: Why is it that "the Guru can do NO wrong" ?
« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2018, 04:47:26 PM »
We seek a guru because we want to learn and be guided on our spiritual path. Before we take someone as our guru, we have to examine them. It is only when we are convinced, we become the student of the teacher.

Since we trust that this person is capable of guiding us, we should also trust that this person can do no wrong. A qualified guru has a mind of a Buddha, how they manifest is according to the need of the students or the karma of the students. Ultimately, it is for the benefit of the student.

A qualified guru will know what we need and how to guide us to the right path. If we have doubts about him, it will be very difficult for the guru to give us guidance. As a result, we will not progress in our practice.

Alex

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Re: Why is it that "the Guru can do NO wrong" ?
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2019, 08:57:22 AM »
Lord Buddha had said that we have to examine our teacher thoroughly before we form the teacher disciple relationship. Choosing a teacher is a huge step in our spiritual journey and we do not want to choose someone who is not qualified to be a teacher. That is why even the scriptures, it was recommended that one have to examine the teacher for 12 years by examining his actions and motivation in doing those actions.

We should not follow anyone blindly because if we followed the wrong and not qualified teacher, our spiritual journey will jeapordised. After we have formed a teacher-disciple relationship with a teacher, we should not have doubts about our teacher anymore because if we do, it will create a lot of negative karma according to the scriptures.

Just like that Big Uncle has said, it is all in our mind and our motivation when we are following a teacher. If we have a motivation to acheive higher spiritually, we will not view our teacher's actions as wrong because everything the teacher do is to help us to progress spiritually and not worldly. If we look at our teacher's actions from a worldy point of view, there will be alot of faults and wrongs because it will not fit a worldly motivation.

Drolma

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Re: Why is it that "the Guru can do NO wrong" ?
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2019, 02:22:32 PM »
When we decided to pursue on the Vajrayana path, we have to look for a qualified guru who can lead us to enlightenment. We have to observe the guru before we actually take him as our guru and the same for the guru too. Since we believe our guru can lead us to enlightenment, he has to be someone with a Buddha's mind in order to be able to do so.

If our guru has a Buddha's mind, he is a Buddha himself. He has the power to see our state of mind and also our past and future. He will know what is our downfall and he will have the method to help us. Sometimes we find what the guru is doing does not make sense, but we should pay no attention to it. Our guru know what is the method that will help us, we just have to trust him.

Our guru will use different methods to help us purify our karmas and collect merits to support our spiritual practice. Sometimes the method he uses we might not like it or we find it hard to deal with but. But we have to always remember, he has the clairvoyance to know what we have done before in our present and previous lives, he is helping us to purify countless negative karma we have accumulated from endless past lives. Therefore, our guru can do no wrong.

Matibhadra

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Re: Why is it that "the Guru can do NO wrong" ?
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2019, 03:44:51 PM »
Quote
Why is it that "the Guru can do NO wrong" ?

It's a purely linguistic issue. A guru can do no wrong just because when the so-called guru actually does wrong he or she, by definition, is not what is called a “guru” anymore.

It's like “water can be no solid”, just because when so-called water is solid then it's ice, not water anymore.

Therefore, it's the student's responsibility to recognize if and when the guru does wrong, and to unfollow the so-called guru in such case.

The bottom line is that ultimately one has to trust oneself, which happens to be the Buddha's last teaching, “be a light unto yourself”.

Indeed, no one can claim to be a Buddhist, let alone a Vajrayana practitioner, while neglecting or contradicting such a quintessential instruction emanating from the Buddha himself.

The alleged and propagandized guru's infallibilty, just like the pope's or the church's alleged infallibility, is just a theocratic tool of social and political control, manipulation and enslavement.

A good example is the Jewish financial terrorist George Soros-sponsored Dzongsar Khyentse using this obnoxious theocratic tool in order to deflect criticism against his pal, the infamous serial sexual abuser Sogyal.