Author Topic: Why is it that "the Guru can do NO wrong" ?  (Read 12669 times)

kurava

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Why is it that "the Guru can do NO wrong" ?
« on: January 18, 2012, 11:31:45 AM »
It is often said, especially in the Vajrayana tradition, that the Guru can do NO wrong.

Are there some instances where the Guru could have made a mistake or error ...

Or is it in a particular context that this statement is ALWAYS correct?

Galen

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Re: Why is it that "the Guru can do NO wrong" ?
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2012, 03:50:47 PM »
True that the Guru can do no wrong. We examine why we take this person as our guru? It is because the guru is someone knowledgeable and someone who is compassionate. Someone who is able to teach you the dharma most effectively in order for your mind to transform. When we decided to have a Guru and student relationship with the Guru, we should have full trust in the Guru, that all his instructions are to benefit us and all santient beings.

When a Guru acts out of compassion, then his instructions would not be wrong. All the instructions will be to benefit the masses. We may not understand it in the beginning (and think that it is wrong) as we may have a short term sight, but later on it becomes clear why such instructions were given.

In summary, we must trust our Guru.

vajratruth

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Re: Why is it that "the Guru can do NO wrong" ?
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2012, 09:04:48 PM »
A Guru teaches many things and I strongly believe that in all ways, everything that the Guru teaches benefits the student. Along the way the Guru will create situations for the student to witness for himself the state of his own mind transformation.

To even think of whether the someone is "right" or "wrong" is to make a judgement on a matter, with reference to the Self. This thinking therefore reinforces ego-centricity because the Self remains in the equation.

By embracing fully the thought that the Guru can do no wrong, we remove the Self from all equations. There is no longer "right" or "wrong". There is only devotion to the Guru, whom right from the start we agreed to accept as the foundation of all our good qualities.



KhedrubGyatso

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Re: Why is it that "the Guru can do NO wrong" ?
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2012, 03:40:56 AM »
From the point of view of  practice , the Guru can do no wrong. If i remember correctly Chogyam Trungpa stated that the Guru is like a mirror which reflects all phenomena. Hence he is the supreme teacher. How we  interact , respond and engage with the Guru is how we engage the world. The  Guru fast forward all the possible encounters we have with others in order we have opportunity  to experience the emotions and thoughts which arise in us , to learn how to control  and deal with them to give positive and beneficial results to ourselves and others.Hence, the skilful Guru  takes on the role of  one's friend,lover, mother, father, taskmaster, teacher, bad guy, etc in order to train our mind. Even a Guru's often unpredictable moods , becomes a powerful lesson for us in the truth of impermanence and the suffering of change.
Naturally if we do not have faith in the Guru's pure motivation to benefit us , many of his actions may be misconstrued as negative.

Tenzin K

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Re: Why is it that "the Guru can do NO wrong" ?
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2012, 04:05:17 PM »
Out of compassion & kindness of a Guru take his time & effort to find ways to benefit  the students. How can the Guru be wrong?

Sometime we may see the action of the Guru may not what we see as rational but the Guru is just  like a Buddha that know what is the best for us. He can see the big picture and provide the ultimate solution for us.

Have great faith and Guru Samaya with our Guru because through the Guru guidance that make us realize who we are, correct of flaws, show us the truth of life and ultimately show us the way to enlightenment.

pgdharma

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Re: Why is it that "the Guru can do NO wrong" ?
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2012, 04:17:49 PM »
It is true that the Guru can do no wrong. Once we have taken refuge in the Guru, we must have faith in him. Our samaya must be pure and strong. Understanding how our Guru, out of compassion, will use different skilful methods to guide us in our spiritual journey, we must not have any doubts in him but to follow his advises and instructions. We must not have negatives thoughts of our Guru because whatever instructions he gave may not look right at the moment due to our wrong perceptions but later it may become clear why he gave that instructions.

kurava

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Re: Why is it that "the Guru can do NO wrong" ?
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2012, 03:22:30 AM »
Thank you all for your replies and sharing.

Yes, understanding this saying and having firm faith in this will definitely help us along the path. As students , we must always remember that all of the Guru's actions are motivated out of compassion even though sometimes they may not fit into our concept of compassionate acts.


DSFriend

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Re: Why is it that "the Guru can do NO wrong" ?
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2012, 04:02:36 AM »
Perhaps another way of looking at it is to see pass what is wrong or right as not everyone can take the self out of the equation. We have been so conditioned to protect ourselves from harm. For us, doing wrong most of the time if not all the time has the impact of harm..be it to harm others or ourselves. However, a compassionate Guru does not have in him this trait to harm.

hope rainbow

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Re: Why is it that "the Guru can do NO wrong" ?
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2012, 05:16:43 AM »
If I see my Guru do wrong, it is not my Guru, it is my projection.
The "wrong" comes from my mind. The Guru is like a mirror as Khedrup Gyatso said:

Chogyam Trungpa stated that the Guru is like a mirror which reflects all phenomena. Hence he is the supreme teacher. How we  interact , respond and engage with the Guru is how we engage the world. The  Guru fast forward all the possible encounters we have with others in order we have opportunity  to experience the emotions and thoughts which arise in us , to learn how to control  and deal with them to give positive and beneficial results to ourselves and others.

When we perceive our Guru as doing "wrong", he ceases to be our Guru (a Spiritual Teacher cannot be a Spiritual Teacher if we still see Him as doing "wrong" actions, these two projections cannot be experienced simultaneously).
And when we see our Guru doing "wrong", we develop doubts and we have triggered a thought process which disables our Guru to be of assistance to us.

When we catch ourselves having the beginning of a thought such as "ohh, this is wrong", it is best that we can recall the faith in our Guru, how the faith is validated, then recall what our Guru's motivation/intention is, recall his Bodhicitta, recall our lineage and catch our mind before it goes further in a bias view.
Then we see what is to be learned from this experience so that we can improve ourselves and get completely free of any ill thought, inadvertently disparaging our Guru.

In fact, we should rejoice when we are being challenged by our Guru, and when our faith vacillate a little, because when we gain back stability in our faith after an experience of vacillation every new bit of foundation will strengthen it to a point of unwavering, natural and spontaneously arising faith.
And this is THE foundation for our spiritual path, this is our BEST tool!

We need to think about this very carefully.

If my Guru could do wrong, would he have qualified to be my Guru? No
Has my Guru's bodhicitta been validated by his own Gurus? Yes
Are my Guru's Gurus from an established and verified lineage? Yes
Is my Guru from an established lineage? Yes
Have I properly checked on my Guru's qualifications, actions and results before I established a relationship Guru-student with my Guru? Yes
Because my Guru has bodhicitta, is it possible that He would mean harm to others? No
Therefore are all the actions of my Guru to benefit others? Yes
To benefit others selflessly, purely, with equanimity and with altruisme? Yes
Thus, does my Guru care for all sentient beings equally? Yes
Is there any being that could be neglected from his love and compassion? No
Then could my Guru do any wrong? No

Dondrup Shugden

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Re: Why is it that "the Guru can do NO wrong" ?
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2012, 06:13:16 AM »
Before we choose our Guru, we have been advised to carefully consider whether the Lama we have chosen has the virtues which we admire and wish we have.

Once we have chosen our Guru, we must control our ego and have no judgements on what our Guru does is right or wrong. We need to trust ourselves to have made the perfect choice.

Whenever, I go into right or wrong views of what my Guru does, I first check WHY and then the matter of right or wrong no longer exists but rather what I can learn on my spiritual path. Whatever my Guru does, and this is from personal experience and reflection had been lessons for me to learn to curb my constantly repeating bad habits.

At times such realizations can be painful, but let that pain pass and we have learnt.  Learning from our Guru's actions is a powerful process to happiness and joy.

yontenjamyang

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Re: Why is it that "the Guru can do NO wrong" ?
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2012, 07:52:08 AM »
Having become the disciple of the Guru, we are very fortunate as the Guru always has our best interest in all his actions. Even if conventionally people may perceived that something the Guru does is "wrong", we need to consider it right and examine what and how we can benefit from that action. If we don' understand, then we should ask the Guru.

Basically, we just accept and do as the Guru ask.

Midakpa

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Re: Why is it that "the Guru can do NO wrong" ?
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2012, 10:09:19 AM »
In the prayer "Calling the guru from afar", there is a verse which goes like this:

May I not arise heresy even for a second
In the actions of the glorious guru.
May I regard whatever actions that are done as pure.
With this devotion, may I receive the blessings of the guru in my heart."

This means that we must always regard the actions of the guru as always motivated by bodhicitta. Everything is done to benefit us. So if we were to regard his actions as "wrong" due to our delusions, we will not have any realisations. No blessings will come to us. Thus, as some have already pointed out, the element of faith in the guru is very important.

Big Uncle

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Re: Why is it that "the Guru can do NO wrong" ?
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2012, 06:21:46 PM »
Well, it depends how you want to look at a particular Lama/Guru. If you are looking at the Lama as a worldly figure or for a worldly motivation, then the Guru can do wrong. Hence, people are unable to follow through their spiritual path because they only have worldly ambitions. Our little minds can only fit a worldly or a spiritual ambition. People start by feeling that the worldly ambition does not bring them happiness and so they seek a spiritual path or a Lama to guide them.

So, there is a sort of renunciation even at the beginning and one would amass the merits necessary to come to progress on. Having found a Lama, we strive to maintain our relationship by deepening our spiritual commitment and conviction by absorbing his teachings and emanating them through our actions. The more we do it, the more merits we collect. When the Guru gives instructions directly or indirectly on how to progress. We take them to heart and doing that bring us closer to enlightenment.

When we keep our promises to our Lama (no matter how trivial the promises are), we create the cause to uphold our vows especially those that are the highest - the Bodhisattva and Tantric Vows. This is a speed train up to full Enlightenment. Hence, the Lama guides us with instructions that challenges and pushes us. Therefore, the Lama can do no wrong.

Positive Change

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Re: Why is it that "the Guru can do NO wrong" ?
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2012, 08:51:02 AM »
This is interesting... there could be many debatable factors, some playing on semantics and the like but what I find unquestionable is how I perceive the (my) Guru:

1. My Guru - the source of my Refuge and thus the embodiment of the 3 jewels
2. My Guru - the source of my Dharma from whence my ignorance is dispelled and my wisdom increased
3. My Guru - the source of Merit Field from whence I am able to tap into to generate the most needed good merits that I need to propel my Dharma journey further.

For me, if there is still doubt in my mind that my Guru is "wrong" I am questioning the very factors that I entrust to gain enlightenment. If so, there really is no debatable point is there? Hence, yes I feel strongly that my Guru can do NO wrong because in his perceived "mistakes" there is a lesson to be learnt. Nothing my Guru does is flippant or without reason. That is what I trust in!

Ensapa

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Re: Why is it that "the Guru can do NO wrong" ?
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2012, 10:03:22 AM »
Basically if we perceive the Guru to be able to make mistakes, why would we want to take that person as a Guru anyway? defeats the purpose right. And if he already and clearly shows signs of his attainments but yet shows "mistakes" on some occasions, we have to think deeper on why is he doing that. Is he trying to make a point? or are those real mistakes?Or could it be just that we are too narrow to not understand his actions? It is easy to check, really. He cant have clairvoyance and make mistakes at the same time, so his "mistakes" are nothing but our own deluded views.