Author Topic: The Dalai Lama says it's up to you to practise Shugden or not  (Read 14441 times)

jeremyg

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Re: The Dalai Lama says it's up to you to practise Shugden or not
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2012, 02:29:14 PM »
I have been following the Shugden ban for a while now. From this I can say that it is obvious that the Dalai Lama has changed his tone regarding the ban. During the early stages the Dalai Lama was much more astute in saying the no one should practice Shugden, if not it would bring great harm to all practitioners, the freedom of Tibet, and even shorten the Dalai Lama's life.

However if we look at the way the Dalai Lama is presenting the issue now, we can see a big change. He is now saying that it is your choice to practice Shugden, thus he is not saying that you should not practice, he is leaving the choice up to you. We can see the change in this video:

http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=11294

In comparison with the original video with the Dalai Lama speaking of the ban, we can see the the Dalai Lama was much more direct, and forceful with the Ban, yet now even joke about the growth of Shugden practice in many countries around the world, such as Singapore, Thailand, and China.

What I can see happening is the eventual lessening of the ban, as people choose to practice Shugden anyway. I mean after all isn't this the Dalai Lama's plan. The Dalai Lama is a buddha, and therefore what he does cannot be wrong. Ever since the introduction of the Ban, hasn't Shuden practice grown tremendously. There must be a reason behind the Dalai Lama's doings. Once we see this, we will finally see that the Dalai Lama, is not evil in any way. He has just found the best and most appropriate way to grow Shugden's practice. Especially in the case of China; the Dalai Lama stated that if people practice they will go against the freedom of Tibet, and shorten the Dalai Lama's life. Isn't this what the Chinese people want? Thus they will go and practice Shugden which results in the growth go the practice in China. After all China has the biggest population on Planet Earth today.

The Dalai Lama's plan is working, and eventually people will no longer follow the Ban. However the Dalai Lama will keep it up for as long as possible to grow the practice as much as possible with his means.

We must see the bigger picture, and work towards it creating harmony, not more animosity or commotion.

pgdharma

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Re: The Dalai Lama says it's up to you to practise Shugden or not
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2012, 03:15:12 PM »
“After thorough study and research, I realised that it is harmful to follow the Shugden deity, so I stopped worshipping,

HHDL is an enlightened being. Does he need to do a thorough study and research? Doesn't he have the power of clairvoyance?

“In order to undermine the peace and harmony within the Tibetan people, China provides political and financial support to Shugden worshippers in Tibet, India and Nepal in particular, and in general, across the globe” said the CTA in the press statement. "

We can see from this DS controversy, with HHDL going out 'against' DS, China being a powerful country with a population of billions is helping the practice of DS to spread by providing them political and financial support.

HHDL cannot be wrong as he is an Enlightened Being. He is using skillful method to spread Dorje Shugden and his plan is working. Now more monasteries and big statues of Dorje Shugden are flourishing everywhere and globally!

Zach

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Re: The Dalai Lama says it's up to you to practise Shugden or not
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2012, 03:22:07 PM »
HHDL undermimes the Tibetan cause by scapegoating Shugden practitoners, from a political POV he's done the work that china could never have done and created a great division within his own community.

shugdenprotect

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Re: The Dalai Lama says it's up to you to practise Shugden or not
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2012, 05:01:54 PM »
The Dalai Lama did not ask for the expulsion of Gyume Kensur Rinpoche. The abbot of Jangtze initiated the expulsion based on the Dalai Lama’s PAST stance which is quite different from a recent audience in year 2011 where HH takes a softer approach to the practice of Dorje Shugden (please refer to the post titled “The Dalai Lama says it’s up to you to practice Shugden or not”). In 2011, HH says that the choice of practicing Dorje Shugden is in the hands of the practitioners. HH even cracked a joke and chuckled about this subject. This is quite different from the harsh position of year 2008 where HH gave clear encouragement to monasteries to expel sangha members who continue to practice Shugden. HH even added that, if necessary, monasteries can use HH’s name to execute such an expulsion.

Looking at this shift in positioning by HH, can it be interpreted that HH is giving us the loop hole to go all out with our Dorje Shugden practice? If all practitioners, which I suspect there are many, just come out of hiding and practice openly, there is minimal that HH would do. This is especially so with the falling of His government’s position which has been “downgraded” from a government (Tibetan Government In Exile) to an administration (Central Tibetan Administration).

The Abbot’s act to expel his own Guru should create a lot negative karma within the anti-Shugden movement caused by broken samaya between guru and student. As mentioned, the foundation for spiritual advancement and growth as well as keeping the pure Dharma intact and complete is by maintaining clean samaya with our root Guru. If the foundation of this movement is weakened by broken samaya, it can only be soon that the movement will collapse. So, perhaps the Dalai Lama permitted this expulsion as it contributes to the eventual end of this ban ?

Additionally, the expulsion of high ranking sangha members will free them to start and build up a “new” lineage of Dorje Shugden practitioner. The timing is also perfect because, now, the expelled monks have a place to go with more and more DS monasteries gaining recognition and strength inside and outside India such as Shar Ganden and Serpom.

Ensapa

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Re: The Dalai Lama says it's up to you to practise Shugden or not
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2012, 09:27:01 AM »
The Dalai Lama did not ask for the expulsion of Gyume Kensur Rinpoche. The abbot of Jangtze initiated the expulsion based on the Dalai Lama’s PAST stance which is quite different from a recent audience in year 2011 where HH takes a softer approach to the practice of Dorje Shugden (please refer to the post titled “The Dalai Lama says it’s up to you to practice Shugden or not”). In 2011, HH says that the choice of practicing Dorje Shugden is in the hands of the practitioners. HH even cracked a joke and chuckled about this subject. This is quite different from the harsh position of year 2008 where HH gave clear encouragement to monasteries to expel sangha members who continue to practice Shugden. HH even added that, if necessary, monasteries can use HH’s name to execute such an expulsion.

Looking at this shift in positioning by HH, can it be interpreted that HH is giving us the loop hole to go all out with our Dorje Shugden practice? If all practitioners, which I suspect there are many, just come out of hiding and practice openly, there is minimal that HH would do. This is especially so with the falling of His government’s position which has been “downgraded” from a government (Tibetan Government In Exile) to an administration (Central Tibetan Administration).

The Abbot’s act to expel his own Guru should create a lot negative karma within the anti-Shugden movement caused by broken samaya between guru and student. As mentioned, the foundation for spiritual advancement and growth as well as keeping the pure Dharma intact and complete is by maintaining clean samaya with our root Guru. If the foundation of this movement is weakened by broken samaya, it can only be soon that the movement will collapse. So, perhaps the Dalai Lama permitted this expulsion as it contributes to the eventual end of this ban ?

Additionally, the expulsion of high ranking sangha members will free them to start and build up a “new” lineage of Dorje Shugden practitioner. The timing is also perfect because, now, the expelled monks have a place to go with more and more DS monasteries gaining recognition and strength inside and outside India such as Shar Ganden and Serpom.

The softening of HHDL's stance spells nothing more than the forthcoming of the unbanning of Dorje Shugden.

From your view, I can deduce that another reason for this ban is so that HHDL can clear off insincere practitioners  who prefer to go political as opposed to sincere Dharma practice in accordance with the teachings. Nothing could be more detrimental to Buddhism than insincere practitioners and scholars who with little learning, claim that they know more about Buddhism than the hundreds of accomplished masters there are and teach their version of the Dharma to others. In other words, a huge benefit from this is that insincere practitioners show their true colors and perform actions that automatically limit their own activities.

The expulsion of these high ranking lamas will create the causes for these more politically inclined practitioners to fail in their own Dharma practice, and when this lamas go to Serpon and Shar Ganden, these monasteries will grow even more with their presence which demonstrates directly the legitimacy of Dorje Shugden's power and practice.

I wonder tho why HHDL has not spoken up on the expulsion move. Perhaps he feels that there is no hope for practitioners who will dispose of their own teachers for political reasons, and that it is a waste of time to talk about those cases.

Lineageholder

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Re: The Dalai Lama says it's up to you to practise Shugden or not
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2012, 05:40:08 PM »

The softening of HHDL's stance spells nothing more than the forthcoming of the unbanning of Dorje Shugden.

There's no softening of the Dalai Lama's stance on Dorje Shugden.  He brings it up at every public teaching and tells people not to practise it.

Points for optimism, but I can't see any basis for holding such a view.  If simply not demanding the expulsion of monks is a softening of view (they expelled them all so there's no more need for demand), fair enough, but that doesn't herald a lifting of the ban.

DharmaSpace

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Re: The Dalai Lama says it's up to you to practise Shugden or not
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2012, 02:18:48 AM »
The latest talk by HHDL at Bodghaya he spoke about a burgeoning of Dorje Shugden practiitoners in China, Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan that the Chinese ethnicity is really embracing Dorje Shugden in droves. And that when Dalai Lama spoke about it it was in a light hearted manner as compared to the wrathful manner he showed in the previous gatherings and talks. It is a matter that threatens his life why should he be so EASY about it?

Also I just heard in Tibet the Chinese government are supporting monasteries with DS practitioners whereby the monks work very hard and they cause no trouble and they benefit the people / community they are serving. What government wont support hard working beneficial people and efforts? 

 

triesa

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Re: The Dalai Lama says it's up to you to practise Shugden or not
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2012, 08:47:10 AM »

The softening of HHDL's stance spells nothing more than the forthcoming of the unbanning of Dorje Shugden.

There's no softening of the Dalai Lama's stance on Dorje Shugden.  He brings it up at every public teaching and tells people not to practise it.

Points for optimism, but I can't see any basis for holding such a view.  If simply not demanding the expulsion of monks is a softening of view (they expelled them all so there's no more need for demand), fair enough, but that doesn't herald a lifting of the ban.

Dear Lineageholder,

Dalai Lama always talk about the DS issue/ban in every public appearances or teachings, which to me has become a norm already. However if you observed carefully,  he has changed his way in delivering this issue, for instance, saying it is up to you to practise Dorje Shugden or not in the recent teaching in Jan in Bodhgaya. This to me, is DEFINITELY a softening on his stance on this ban.

It is like your mother telling you, you MUST NOT take sweet or else your teeth will decade and you will lose all your teeth to a softer tone by saying it is up to you to eat sweet or not, eating sweet is not good but  the choice is yours..

Would you not try to take some sweets now if you mother says it is up to you? At least you wont feel you would be scolded heavily when she said you must not like before.

Not demanding the expulsion of the monks is ALSO a softening of the view of the DS ban by DL, who cares whether there are any more monks to expell for the time being, but the fact that when DL said this, who knows some secret DS practising monks may surface in the future and they wont have to feel the threat to be expelled. So isn't this a softening of the view of the DS ban by DL?

I am optimistic that the ban will be lifted following this trend, we must work towards this so that the sufferings of those DS monks and nuns would not go in vain. We must work even harder now in all shapes and forms to clarify that DS is not evil, DS will not shorten the life of DL (infact DS is the protector who gave prophecy of the exact route DL needed to take to escape safely from Tibet to India when China invaded Tibet), and DS is not the cause of Tibet not gaining its soverengity from China.

Ensapa

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Re: The Dalai Lama says it's up to you to practise Shugden or not
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2012, 09:54:04 AM »

The softening of HHDL's stance spells nothing more than the forthcoming of the unbanning of Dorje Shugden.

There's no softening of the Dalai Lama's stance on Dorje Shugden.  He brings it up at every public teaching and tells people not to practise it.

Points for optimism, but I can't see any basis for holding such a view.  If simply not demanding the expulsion of monks is a softening of view (they expelled them all so there's no more need for demand), fair enough, but that doesn't herald a lifting of the ban.

Yeah but he changed the way that he delivered it. It was not as hardline as before.

Maybe he will say that it is no longer necessary to segregate monks who practice and monks who dont. Because it seems that he has realized that there is still a lot more people out there practicing DS and there is nothing much he can do about it...so with that in mind probably he will relax the ban more. His reaction when talking about the ban to me is indicative of him relaxing the ban's rules even though he has not made any official statements yet at the moment. Perhaps it is soon that he will make a statement or two about it?

After all, HHDL did not say "make life difficult for those practicing DS. Isolate them and deride them!" He just said to the public to not go for him for refuge. However him insisting the separation of those who practice DS and those who did not is a very sad thing indeed, although I believe he is doing this for a bigger purpose....splitting the sangha is a very heavy misdeed indeed when done by an ordinary person but when it is done by a Bodhisattva,  we must have faith that it is for a bigger reason or else it contradicts with our faith and trust that Bodhisattvas will never harm.

DharmaSpace

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Re: The Dalai Lama says it's up to you to practise Shugden or not
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2012, 11:16:06 AM »
The Great Exception does it for me everytime.

If the Dalai Lama does not respect his own Guru Trijang Dorje Chang, why let him carry on the Dorje Shugden practise?
Dalai Lama says Trijang Rinpoche can practise Dorje Shugden Small | Large


The Dalai Lama escaped Tibet carrying items of Dorje Shugden and it was under Dorje Shudgen's advise tat he escaped to safety and now spread Dalai Lama is a celebrity monk all over the world. I mean no amount of brainwashing that can make u forget about that!






dondrup

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Re: The Dalai Lama says it's up to you to practise Shugden or not
« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2012, 08:37:15 PM »
“After thorough study and research, I realised that it is harmful to follow the Shugden deity, so I stopped worshipping,”
 
His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama (HHDL) hadn’t provided the findings of his study and research to justify why it is harmful to practise Dorje Shugden (DS).  Why didn’t HHDL provide with facts and findings to prove beyond any doubt that DS is harmful?  DS practitioners are not convinced DS is a spirit.  If DS is a spirit, all the Gelug Lineage Masters would not have propitiated DS.  How could they be wrong? 

“So, after knowing and understanding the harmful impacts of worshipping the deity, it is my responsibility to urge my devotees not to follow it”.

HHDL urged.  HHDL didn’t say others should stop the practice.  If DS is harmful, why didn’t HHDL ‘destroy’ the spirit so that the spirit can no longer be harmful to others or himself?

“But it is up to you whether you still want to continue following it or not. My responsibility is to show you the proper way,”

HHDL seemed to give DS practitioners a choice.  Why imposed a ban on DS then?  A choice restricted by a ban is not a choice at all.

“In order to undermine the peace and harmony within the Tibetan people, China provides political and financial support to Shugden worshippers in Tibet, India and Nepal in particular, and in general, across the globe”

The truth is that the ban on DS had caused disharmony amongst the Tibetan people.
 
“I heard some Tibetans in Tibet think that I am still following the Shugden and I have further heard some even say that I have not urged an end to Shugden worship,” the Dalai Lama said. “So today, I have made it very clear.”

Outwardly HHDL can be 100% against DS, but how do we know (with no disrespect to HHDL) HHDL is not practising DS inwardly or secretly?

Ensapa

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Re: The Dalai Lama says it's up to you to practise Shugden or not
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2012, 05:23:26 PM »
At this point, I am doubting if the ban was initiated by HHDL himself or by his assistants, or by the CTA for whatever political agendas they may have. Because in so many of HHDL's talks about Dorje Shugden, he never did once mention about shutting off people who do his practice or make things difficult for them. He just said do not come to my teachings and that he has no connection with them.

CTA has a history of covering things up, altering history, banning tulkus, and even acting against the will of the Dalai Lama. For example, Sangye Gyatso initiated a civil war against the will of the 5th Dalai Lama and then placed the 5th Dalai Lama as the head of the government. If you read Glenn Mullin's biography, it states very clearly that the 5th Dalai Lama was against the civil war but Sangye Gyatso initiated it anyway.

Aside from this, from the same biography, Glenn Mullin has also explicitly stated that the series of Dalai Lamas that died young were most likely to have been murdered, but the historians used eloquent cover ups that the Dalai Lamas decided to leave the Tibetans early and the Tibetans lack the merits to keep the Dalai Lama. Again, this shows the extent of the cover up that is so pervasive in Tibetan history.

So, CTA's bad track record has started since its inception from the beginning. It isn't surprising at all if at the end of the day, the ban was nothing more than the machinations of some jealous government official and that he has been distorting the words of HHDL to make it seem more serious than it should.

Gabby Potter

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Re: The Dalai Lama says it's up to you to practise Shugden or not
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2015, 07:43:29 PM »
I actually find this very hypocritical because obviously we do not have the freedom of religious, people who practise Dorje Shugden are discriminated everywhere, it's pretty obvious that we do not have a choice to make. But as time goes by, His Holiness seems to be a bit more tolerant when it comes to Dorje Shugden issues, I guess this is a good sign?