Author Topic: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?  (Read 24249 times)

Manjushri

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2012, 08:17:38 AM »
With teaching, why does one have to be wrathful towards you? If they didn't care, they wouldn't be bothered or couldn't care less about what you do. So obviously with wrath, there is a degree of care and compassion that motivates someone to be wratful towards you right?

Say for instance you go to school. Everytime you make the same mistake in your maths calculation or didn't do your homework.. And after a few tries on helping you, your school teacher can choose, either to put you in detention, scold you or not care less anymore. But they only do it to a certain extent. After a few tries, they give up. But one's guru.. one's guru will use different ways and methods to make you realise and improve. He/She will not give up, (unless you give up on yourself or really choose not to change), and when using the wrathful energy, it is motivated purely by compassion and care, otherwise why waste energy and be wrathful towards you risking his/her reputation and your trust? There is no need to risk that if the guru did not care.

As with what has been said, using wrath to teach gives faster results because students get scared and want to improve, notices what they've done wrong and not repeat it and of course trusts that the guru does it due to reasons beyond what we can see and imagine amongst many other factors. Like HH. Kyabje Zong Rinpoche, who was known to be extremely wrathful and strict. When Zong Rinpoche was the abbot of Gaden Shartse, Rinpoche brought Shartse to new heights of monastic scholarship and the epitome of monastic discipline. Rinpoche was wrathful but look at the results.. It is so because it was motivated out of pure love and compassion. Imagine if Zong Rinpoche didn't care.. it would be exactly like what the current abbot of Shartse is now achieving under his tenureship - nothing (sorry to say!).

jeremyg

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2012, 01:08:20 PM »
Your teacher will only act out of compassion, and depending on the person sometimes a wrathful nature is needed to change the person quicker, or sometimes if it wasn't for the wrathful nature of the teacher, the person wouldn't change.

It is an attitude, being laid back and nice sometimes doesn't yield results. The teacher can't be around forever, so for the fastest change he/she will sometimes employ wrathful methods to wake you up and change you. Dorje Shugden is a wrathful buddha, and therefore it is said that he brings the quickest results. So if you believe in Dorje Shugden, why not in wrathful teachers? But remember it shouldn't be from fear that you act, but from the understanding of why the teacher is being wrathful.

Positive Change

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2012, 04:46:08 PM »
I was told that when Lama uses wrathful way onto his students, it will yield faster results. Why is it so? Is because when the Lama is "fierce", then we students act faster?

The saying "Different strokes for different folks" can be aptly applied here. Some Lama's do use the wrathful methods to invoke and "provoke" faster results. Results being transformation... mind transformation!

Wrathful methods may not work on certain people... sometimes it takes other skillful methods. However, I do believe that wrathful methods do indeed yield quicker results as it targets the very buttons of our insecurities which are really nothing but our varying degrees of an egotistical nature!

Pushing these very buttons directly would inevitably trigger the worse in us to manifest... but through the skillful methods of the Lama, while this is happening, a "mirror" would be shown to us to make us see and realise our delusional and deceptive minds. It is a "shortcut" in purification and realization... how lucky, beneficial and meritorious it is for those of us who have such lamas to guide us!

dsiluvu

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2012, 06:19:55 PM »
Any real Guru will do whatever it takes to transform his students mind. If the peaceful method is not working, the Guru will use wrathful means out of love and deep compassion like a mother for his only child. Sometimes the mother talks nicely but sometimes the mother scolds, and it is out of great care and love for the child to learn. They say to receive the wrathful methods is the like a blessing in disguise to purify the student's heavy negative karma. The student may experience pain from the wrathful medicine but this medicine though bitter will help the student greatly. Sometimes even save the student's life. So yes it is a faster method to wake the student up before it is too late but it is always done with pure compassion and when the gentle peaceful method did not work.

The other side of the coin, is that the student receiving this wrathful method from the Guru is extremely lucky and it also shows the level of stability and trust the student have on his Guru that allows the Guru to manifest such wrath. Some students will probably never get the wrathful methods, these could be that this student will not be able to accept it as he/she is not stable enough and does not have a strong and perhaps it will cause more negative effects then positive. So the student that receives this means of wake up call must realise how fortunate he/she is that the Guru cares enough to trigger and purify the students negative karma.

I have heard of a story where there was 2 students of Zong Rinpoche and one of the students got the beating from Zong Rinpoche and the other did not and the one that did not the this form of purification actually is the one that dies the next day. So how fortunate we to be able to receive such wrathful means to help clear our inner obstacles. Which Guru would do this just to hurt the student, or make him/she run away? The Guru does this wrathful means simply because he truly wishes to help on transform internally!

brian

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2012, 03:18:20 AM »
my view on wrathful teachings can give faster result. i somehow think if the student is 'not ready' for the wrathful method (which the Guru will know), the Guru will not be using it. but having said that, every individuals have their own karma and plus points. So i don't think using wrathful method on everyone will work, some will even back fire and we don't get the supposedly good result instead it become worst.

Wrathful is meant to be the hardest thing to do for a student because i feel it is supposed to bring an impactful effect on the situation. For instance you have a friend who is involved in drugs but despite repeated advises to ask him to stop taking it or receive rehabilitation, he doesn't heed your advises. you in turn made a 'wrathful' decision like to report him to a police in order for him to be arrested and get rehabilitation instead of seeing him dropping further to the state that he can't be help anymore (let's say he had to steal, cheat, rob or even kill in order to get drugs).

So this action of yours may seemed unpopular to many but it solves the problem. this is my understanding of wrathful. this is just an instance that i use this as an example.

Positive Change

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2012, 06:11:49 PM »
Wrathful teaching or methods (as i understand it) is exactly that.... A method to deal with stubborn egos that peaceful methods may not pacify or combat. It may seem 'quicker' as it shocks me into realization so to speak. I liken it to a mother scolding her child for doing something stupid/dangerous so the child will refrain from doing it again... It is certainly more effective than sitting the child down and having a discourse... In that sense more efficatious but not always always appropriate as it all depends on what the situstion is and how the child is feeling or have been dealt with in the past. Hence on that same token, when a teacher uses wrathful methods/teachings it is i feel an almost last ditch effort to make the student see theerror of their ways... Hence personifies the teachers care and skill....

ratanasutra

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2012, 04:44:14 PM »
With compassion of the guru wrathful method been used with some students to help clear their negative karma and get rid of their ego and the result is to bring the student realize and come back to the right path..

The Guru is so compassion to use wrathful for purely benefit of the student which the guru can be criticize from other students who does not understand in wrathful actions and it motivations.

Not every time that guru will use wrathful method with student. Because wrathful method does not come from emotion of anger, want to get back etc but it come from contemplation of the guru that only this way that might wake the student up and be in the track.

Of course the result seem to be faster as the situation push you to think and do something about it faster as you do not want the situation getting worse.

   

bambi

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2012, 07:13:59 AM »
I believe Teachers use wrathful methods because the students refuse to change their bad habituations after countless advise. It's just the same as the method of a parent used, we probably don't notice it. The parent will use wrathful ways to stop us from doing more harm like scolding or hitting us. But this doesn't mean that they don't love us instead its the complete opposite, love and care. We may think that whatever we are doing is right but that doesn't mean it is. Some people may not understand the Teachers ways and often have wrong view therefore we should explain to them the logic behind it.

An example which we can share and read about more  http://approachingaro.org/wrathful-teaching

The term “wrathful” is somewhat misleading. A “wrathful” teacher is not typically angry. Rather, it is the style of teaching that gets the fastest results by any means necessary. The teacher often deliberately provokes negative emotions in students. This gives the student material to work with, gives the teacher an opportunity to demonstrate or explain how to transform the emotion, or tests the student’s transformative ability.

The most obvious method is to display anger at a student. This is properly seen as a form of “personality display,” rather than ordinary anger—an emotion a qualified lama will have fully transformed. Another common technique is to lie to the student, telling them something they would naturally have a strong emotional reaction to. Or, the lama may put a student “on the spot,” by telling them to do something frightening, asking a pointed question, or insulting them, in public. Wrathful lamas exert enormous pressure on their students to carry out difficult real-world tasks. They may deliberately inflate a student’s ego—and then suddenly pop it.

The student of Tantra should be in a constant state of panic. That panic is electric and should be regarded as worthwhile . . . . Panic is the source of open heart and open ground. Sudden panic creates an enormous sense of fresh air, and that quality of openness is exactly what Tantra should create. —Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche

Tammy

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2012, 03:11:45 AM »
I was told that when Lama uses wrathful way onto his students, it will yield faster results. Why is it so? Is because when the Lama is "fierce", then we students act faster?

High lamas uses various different methods to teach his students. Which method to be used onto the students depends on the 'characteristics' of the individual student. For someone who is able to follow instructions at the first teaching, there is no need to use wrathful means on his/her.

No one likes to scream or yell at another person unless this person has anger management issue (seriously!), a lama uses wrathful method  to students who needs the 'wake up call'. And it is extremely shameful for the student if his Guru has to cream or yell at him to make him understand or remember the teachings.

Wrathful method might not show results if the students do not have the merits to understand the teaching..
Down with the BAN!!!

DSFriend

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2012, 05:17:56 AM »
A teacher who uses wrathful methods on his students is no ordinary teacher. Why would any ordained person run the risk of destroying everything in a moment of anger. Surely not, for anger that arises out of delusion.

The Buddhas manifests in various forms, peaceful and wrathful. Tara is widely practiced and she embodies the energy of enlightened activities. This does not mean her energy is exclusive to just activities and that she has no wisdom. It is precisely out of compassion that this energy and blessings arises from. When we propitiate Tara for the energy of activities, we also tapped into the enlightened energies of all the Buddhas.

Je Tsongkhapa is an incredible Yidam, outwardly peaceful but embodying compassion, wisdom and the wrathful energies of Vajrapani wielder of the thunderbolt with energies that is irrepressible. Now, wouldn't anyone wish to have all these qualities?!

Well then, rejoice when we meet a Guru who embodies these qualities. Meditating on the Guru's qualities bring much blessings and out of the Guru's compassion, he reaches out to us thru various methods including using the fear element... if that is what it takes to establish a bond with us, a bond that under it all will link us straight to paradise!


Aurore

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #40 on: June 08, 2012, 09:46:10 PM »
I think this quote from Hope Rainbow is rather interesting:-
a) MERIT: one needs enough merit to start with, the merit to meet a Guru that uses wrathful methods, and not everyone has that very rare type of merit. And on this observation, anyone that is experiencing a wrathful Guru should really think over this fact, the fact that it was extremely long and difficult to create the merits for this to happen and then treasure the experience even though it may feel difficult to bare.

I have seen some instances where some students do not experience any wrath from the guru even though the person is considerably more difficult than some students. I was told that it's because the student who experience wrath has the merits and possess a more stable mind. Their minds are at a level where they are able to undergo such training. Of course it is not the case for every single person. Some students are so difficult and have heavy negative karma that they do require wraftful methods to purify them. When one experience wrath, it will purify their karma quicker and tremendously.

Likewise, when a guru knows a person are not able to transform within this lifetime, the guru will leave them alone as nothing will penetrate them, not even wrath. Again, it does not apply to all case.



Dolce Vita

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #41 on: June 24, 2012, 07:23:37 PM »
The logic is simple. When our parents are nice to us, we usually do not take their words seriously. But when they are angry we will be pushed to do more and follow their instructions. The reason why our parents might be wrathful to us is because they want us to improve, they do not want us to fail. This is the same when it comes to spiritual practice. When our Guru is nice to us, we do not really care to push ourselves more. But when our guru becomes wrathful, we will be scared and we will push ourselves to fulfill our lama's wish and follow their instructions. Or another way of looking at it is that when we have a cat running after us, we don't really have to run fast, we can even play with it. But when it is a tiger chasing after us, we will run as fast as we can to save our own life, we push ourselves to freedom.

dsiluvu

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #42 on: June 24, 2012, 10:15:37 PM »
Wrathful teachings are necessary at times because of exactly what Dolce Vita said... like a mother caring for her only child and very naughty child... sometimes they need to be told off to stop being naughty. This is done usually after a few attempts that are more softer, compassionate approach. And it is done because the mother cares.

This is likened to the spiritual guide who love and care for his student so much that He/She would use wrathful methods if needed. The Guru/Spiritual Guide is also alwa Also this method is to also use to wake people up from their comfort zones and remain stagnant. Only someone who loves you with no agenda would take the risk of being wrathful and using such skill to wake the student up.


Ensapa

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2012, 07:15:52 AM »
When the teacher shows wrath, it is usually because ordinary methods have failed to work and the teacher is not left with a choice but to be angry and wrathful. In some cases, the teacher will be most wrathful to the student that he loves the most as he wants this student to improve faster. Some lamas in the past even beat up the student and as a result this student can develop faster.

As I quote from Zazep Rinpoche:
Quote
The seventh benefit of having teacher is, it says that if you have a teacher, one will not experience sufferings of lower migrations and lower rebirth, or suffering like being in the lower realms, being reborn in the lower realms. And because of the power and kindness of guru, will purify those karmas. Because if one finds a good teacher, enlightened teacher, because of the skillful means of this guru's conduct, and whatever the guru is doing to you becomes a teaching, becomes an enlightening experience.

There was a great Kargyupa lama called Dongun Sanpa Gyargye, great Kargyupa lama, great yogi, saint. He was a very famous poet, like Milarepa. He said when the guru is beating you, hitting you, you feel like you're receiving great initiation. And you feel you're blessed, totally blessed. When my guru is scolding at me, I feel like I'm receiving new mantra, and I'm receiving lung of transmission of new mantra, therefore all my obstacles on the path to enlightenment will immediately disappear.

So, I'm not sure you'll find a guru who will beat you, and who will scold you. I'm not sure we will find one like this, that kind of guru these days. It will be a difficult one. It is also difficult for the guru. And in today's North America society, if guru is beating disciple, or scolding, then guru could be charged for abuse and mental cruelty and physical abuse. Guru could end up in jail. [Laughter] I don't think there are many gurus who dare to do that. Even if he wish to do that, thinks it's good to do this, I think one has to be actually kind of enlightened disciple, one has to be enlightened guru, both, if you're willing to take that kind of chance or challenge. Or you have to be back in Tibet, go back to Tibet, and live in the mountains somewhere and you have to have a real blind faith and say, "Please hit me, Lama! Teach me, Lama! I can't meditate. I want you to hit me four times. Yesterday you hit me, and my meditation was so good. Please hit me more! I like having lumps on my head. [more laughter] I feel so good after you scold me. I feel so good. All my defilements went and I feel uplifted, I feel almost I was going to levitate."

So, it's part of our culture, maybe a little bit of blind faith mixed up, whatever. See the thing is, it doesn't matter if it's blind faith or whatever. If you do really have devotion, you have that kind of mind, faith, I mean trust. If you have a good teacher who is teaching you from pure heart, totally selfless, guru who has unconditioned love, compassion for you. If he thinks it's important to hit you, then that kind of hitting, it is like an initiation, it is like blessing.

There was a great Kargyupa lama called Dongun Sanpa Gyargye, great Kargyupa lama, great yogi, saint. He was a very famous poet, like Milarepa. He said when the guru is beating you, hitting you, you feel like you're receiving great initiation. And you feel you're blessed, totally blessed. When my guru is scolding at me, I feel like I'm receiving new mantra, and I'm receiving lung of transmission of new mantra, therefore all my obstacles on the path to enlightenment will immediately disappear.

So, I'm not sure you'll find a guru who will beat you, and who will scold you. I'm not sure we will find one like this, that kind of guru these days. It will be a difficult one. It is also difficult for the guru. And in today's North America society, if guru is beating disciple, or scolding, then guru could be charged for abuse and mental cruelty and physical abuse. Guru could end up in jail. [Laughter] I don't think there are many gurus who dare to do that. Even if he wish to do that, thinks it's good to do this, I think one has to be actually kind of enlightened disciple, one has to be enlightened guru, both, if you're willing to take that kind of chance or challenge. Or you have to be back in Tibet, go back to Tibet, and live in the mountains somewhere and you have to have a real blind faith and say, "Please hit me, Lama! Teach me, Lama! I can't meditate. I want you to hit me four times. Yesterday you hit me, and my meditation was so good. Please hit me more! I like having lumps on my head. [more laughter] I feel so good after you scold me. I feel so good. All my defilements went and I feel uplifted, I feel almost I was going to levitate."

So, it's part of our culture, maybe a little bit of blind faith mixed up, whatever. See the thing is, it doesn't matter if it's blind faith or whatever. If you do really have devotion, you have that kind of mind, faith, I mean trust. If you have a good teacher who is teaching you from pure heart, totally selfless, guru who has unconditioned love, compassion for you. If he thinks it's important to hit you, then that kind of hitting, it is like an initiation, it is like blessing.

When I was young, I was small, I was teenaged, my guru beat me. Sometimes hard when teacher hitting, and then sometimes I see the difference next day, my meditation is better. I can memorize text really fast! So I feel, I wish he will come and beat me again, and sometimes I feel, "I should create conditions and maybe I should make him mad, and then he will come and hit me. But then if I make him mad, then it's bad karma making guru being mad, that's not good. So what kind of attitude is this?" [Laughter] It's a guru-disciple game.


http://www.gblt.site50.net/index.php?library_dest=gyp06&library=library02.03.03&main=main03.03

And needless to say Zazep Rinpoche became a very accomplished practitioner. Wrathful actions work faster because they directly cut through delusions and negative habits as opposed gentle reinforcement.

Big Uncle

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2012, 06:29:59 PM »
Wrathful methods would only work if it is done with Bodhichitta or a spontaneously compassionate mind. And most Gurus would only employ it as the last resort when all other 'peaceful' methods have failed to deliver the intended result.

I think wrathful method is quicker because it induces fear in people and when a healthy dose of fear does amazing wonders to lower the ego and get the person 'straightened' out. When we know the teacher well and his intentions and when he employs wrath, we just have to surrender our ego and embrace the message and not the tone or the manner in which the message was delivered. It would be far better to engage wrath of a spiritual teacher in this manner.

When a teacher employs wrath, he is working on many levels, on one level, he is training us to be more patient so we are prepared to deal with strange and difficult people later that we are supposed to help. On another level, he is breaking the barriers from which we have resisted some of the more subtler (or in some cases overt) instructions that the teacher has given us. In a spiritual sense, such resistance is not a welcomed ingredient in the relationship because it will setback the spiritual development of a person and also the spiritual teacher's work as well. 

In the end, wrath has a tremendous ability to purify large amounts of negative karma and also remove lots of obscurations that is hindering our spiritual path and work. Again, all this possible because of the motivation of the spiritual teacher.