Author Topic: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?  (Read 26138 times)

happysun

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2012, 04:01:41 PM »
Let's me think few second why is wrathful teaching gives faster results??? Through my understanding regarding wrathful teaching or wrathful method used by high lama, it is a faster way to make the student gain high attainment in their spiritual practice. What I can explain is like this, in a family parent used be play two different role. For example if the father will be the serious and more fierce one, mother will be the soft, nice and sweet. When the kid doing something wrong, the father will be the person who will go to punish the kid, and be punished mother will play a role give the kid very warm and comfortable shoulder. However, the most effective method to change the kid bad habituation of course should be the wrathful method used by father.
The kid will remember very clearly what is the lesson he or she from his bad habit.   

This logic also can match with the wrathful teaching used by high lama to teach his student a lesson. It is very logic and practical if you put dharma lesson with our daily life, everything is one actually. I used this example to understand the wrathful teaching done by full compassion high lama because I really seem a dharma teacher like my lovely parents. What do you think???? Can you share with me......??? 

pgdharma

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2012, 04:31:59 PM »
A Lama will use skilful methods to help his students. First he may try peaceful method but if it did not work or if it may take too long to work, out of his compassion and with the right motivation he will use wrathful method to break through his students and help them transform their mind from negative to positive. For the Lama to use wrathful method, the guru-student relation must be strong. The student must have faith and trust the Lama and understand that using wrathful method is to help them transform their mind. At times, the student may not be able to accept this wrathful method, and may run away. However, it is still a blessing as the imprints has been implanted.

DSFriend

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2012, 04:57:19 PM »
I've read a little about wrathful teaching in the vajrayana path. The sharing in here is enlightening and concurs with what the little I've read.

There's massive information available today on the different methods to teach and ways to instill new behaviors. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning

A teacher who employs wrathful means takes on a great responsibility and risk of a student leaving the path because he or she couldn't accept the method of teaching. There are many insightful sharing on why a teacher uses such a method.

It could be as simple as the student not wanting to face the wrath of their teacher so the student complies to what is expected. The wrath of the teacher becomes a deterring factor. Through this process, the behaviour is being modified.

It is proven that habits can be formed or reformed if the person were to engage in a new behaviour, everyday for 2 weeks. The negative habits our spiritual teacher helps us to change stems from countless lifetimes, thus, it is not that easy to uproot.

Many of us may not be able to immediately see the positive effects from such methods to purify ones karma. Thus, faith there is an element of faith required in such a guru-student relationship. Understand the meaning of this relationship and staying focus on what we wish to achieve in our practice is important.


yontenjamyang

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2012, 06:01:30 AM »
This is an interesting topic.  The guru applies he method as a doctor applies the correct method to cure the disease or problem. If surgery or amputation is needed then it needs to be applied. The Guru, being the doctor in this analogy applies wrathful method eg teaching as an antidote to that particular problem of the student as a means to cure or purify the manifesting karma.
Usually negative karma that are inherent in the student my not have manifest yet and the student can clear these karma by mind transformation, dharma work, puja etc. If it still manifest in a very negative way, the guru will apply the most effective means ie wrathful methods.
Another factor is that if the student has strong GD, the results is faster. The stronger the better.
Bottom-line is the stronger the method, the faster the result.

Poonlarp

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2012, 08:28:21 AM »
I think wrathful method work closely with fear.

When we have fear, we will work to eliminate it or cut it down quickly. Wrathful method is a way to reveal our fear, fear of losing something, fear of not get the things done. It's like a powerful strength push us to do more.

A Guru don't show his wrath for sake of showing his power, he is using wrath as a method to push as there are no other way to push his students or disciples to do what he said, or he uses the method to quickly stop the student from something as he can tell something is harmful ahead. Behind the wrathful way there are same compassion and love from the Guru, just that he has to do this way for good.

kurava

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2012, 12:37:46 PM »
My mother disciplined her brood by persuasion, reasoning, cajoling and deprivation sometimes. However none of her methods could be half as effective as my father's wrath. My father was so well known for his wrathful methods that all it needed for him to stop whatever naughty doings we children were up to was just a silent but deadly stare from him.

Wrath leaves a strong impact in our memory and it is most effective for die hard habits. After a wrathful teaching, the student will be very mindful of not incurring the Guru's wrath again . Thus the result comes faster as compared with peaceful teaching.

lightning

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2012, 11:22:22 AM »
There are times that your Guru may appear to give you a treat of vajra fist, but mind you that these are the hands that take away you heavey negative karma in one shot! Preharps preventing you from catching heavy illiness or early death. etc.

Because there are many people still have strong habitual problems that they are not suitable to receive wrathful treatment and a moment of bearing grudge against your root guru may result to incurring very heavy negative karma

triesa

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2012, 04:27:51 PM »
My mother disciplined her brood by persuasion, reasoning, cajoling and deprivation sometimes. However none of her methods could be half as effective as my father's wrath. My father was so well known for his wrathful methods that all it needed for him to stop whatever naughty doings we children were up to was just a silent but deadly stare from him.

Wrath leaves a strong impact in our memory and it is most effective for die hard habits. After a wrathful teaching, the student will be very mindful of not incurring the Guru's wrath again . Thus the result comes faster as compared with peaceful teaching.

I agree with you Kurava, wrathful method leaves a deeper impression and it serves as a barrier for us from getting into worse actions or habits that can cause us or others sufferings. At the end of the day, we have to remember, what does a guru get by being wrathful? As nobody likes to be scolded or screamed at. The answer is pure simple, it is totally out of "GREAT COMPASSION" that the guru will employ this method.

Wouldn't a lama or Guru gain more students and attract more sponsors if the guru always speaks nothing but nice words to his students? Then think why would a "REAL" guru use wrathful method  if it is not to the benefit of the disciple. It is definitely out of love and great compassion......becasue the guru does not want to see us suffer now and in future.

Positive Change

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2012, 07:57:16 PM »
Quote
Wrath leaves a strong impact in our memory and it is most effective for die hard habits. After a wrathful teaching, the student will be very mindful of not incurring the Guru's wrath again . Thus the result comes faster as compared with peaceful teaching.

Dear Kurava, I would like to expand a little on what you have said here, if I may... I disagree with the sentence that the student will be mindful of not incurring the Guru's wrath again! The student should reflect on why the method was used and what was the method used to curb. If it is merely fear of incurring wrath, then the student has not learnt the lesson.

When wrathful methods are skillfully used by our Guru, it is not to instill fear but to break through our delusional defences... making us "see" our innermost self. And if the student sees that, it is actually quite "uplifting" and will feel like a load off one shoulders... It should not be fear in any way, because fear is still our egos manifesting in a "poor me" attitude... at least that is how I see it. :)

sahara

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2012, 06:20:34 PM »
Quote from Positive Change :
"These methods on the surface may seem excessive (as one only dwells on one's own delusional perceptions) but because it is done with great compassion and with pure motivation it is actually the best way to achieve the necessary results."
What I  Understand the meaning of this wrathful methods are skillfully used by our Guru to break through our delusional defences... making us "see" our innermost self also break through his students and help them transform their mind from negative to positive. Is like the parent use the wrathful methods to the children is more effective , the result comes faster as compared with peaceful teaching.This is what i understand and what do u think?



Lawrence L

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2012, 07:53:01 PM »
Personally, I always think that people learn faster and better when there's pain and difficulty.
For example, when we were a kid, we didn't know the danger of fire. Our parents kept remind us not to play with fire but we didn't know why, untill we experience the pain. Not that without pain and difficulty we couldn't learn, but with pain and difficulty we learn faster and better.

Cause the pain and difficulty left us out from our own 'comfort zone'. Just like the wrathful teaching, we are forced to transform. No excues to justify our own bad qualities. No pity-me-attitude to justify our own ego. We are pushed to admit and face the ugly truth. The wrathful teaching always show the monster inside us.


Dondrup Shugden

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2012, 03:52:51 AM »
All teachings from a Lama are to benefit us and most of us due to our conditioned living in fear of losing, we may respond better with wrathful means.

I always recall the first thing, a parent would tell a child who has first learnt to walk, "watch out or you will fall". Out of care and kindness, the parent has indoctrinated fear into the child. We live like that, so out of the Lama's desire for us to transform, He has to use the same method we are accustomed to.

However what I have observed is that many of us do not really respond in the same manner and I have great respect for Lamas who do so much for us and still have hope for us.

In whatever method our Lama/Guru use on us, learn the deeper meaning of our own faults, delusions and our vain protection of our ego and do our best to take on the challenge and get rid of them.  The result is a happy you, so why not? So beneficial.


RedLantern

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2012, 05:05:56 PM »
Wrathful practice can accelerate your progress.The wrathful practice is called "wrathful" because hatred is the emotion you most stir up and attempts to transform.As part of the method,you rely on a "wrathful yidam" or
visualise enraged diety.With this practise,hatred can be transform into the clarity of enlightenment.
According to Tibetan Buddhism,destruction iis one of the 4 functions of a Buddha.Wrathful practise gives gives you the clarity to know the must be destroyed and the ferocity to destroy it.For many of us Buddhist practise
,makes our life work better and the main motivation.Part of the wrathful method is to abandon or even destroy any aspect of your life that interferes with your practise.Everything in life except practise can fall apart
.

vajratruth

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2012, 02:13:23 PM »
Human beings are experts are avoiding discomfort and over time we have mastered the art of Denial and Avoidance. We have even given medical names for poor character such as "psychopathy" and apportion blame outwardly to a number of factors thus throwing attention from oneself.

The "polite" society does not like confrontations and chooses instead to pretend that all is ok. In that environment we have not learned and have in fact nurtured conditions for our negative karma to ripen and flourish.

A Guru is the most kind person we will ever meet and would prefer to be gentle and kind. However, when that approach does not work, and for all our sakes, the Guru is forced to use wrathful means to confront us with our negativities. We have to be pushed by the Guru to deal with our own negative mind because no one else cares enough or have enough skills to deal with our tricky minds.

There is a saying that applies very well here i.e "sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind"....except, because of the motivation of the Guru, the wrathful methods should never be seen as cruel.

Rihanna

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2012, 04:55:01 PM »
Wrathful methods bring faster results because it is the most drastic move with a pure motivation to help the person or a situation. Let's say for example, a mother had to use the wrathful method of beating her own child to prevent her from getting into big trouble over and over again (let's say stealing) and by making the child heed her orders. To many, it may seems harsh on the child but when you have used up all ways advising her not to repeat the offence, you just have to use the wraftful method to make it work. The child being punished but won't be repeating the offence for fearing the beating. And for all, its still for the child's own good. That is my understanding.