Author Topic: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?  (Read 26137 times)

kris

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Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« on: December 29, 2011, 07:38:13 PM »
I was told that when Lama uses wrathful way onto his students, it will yield faster results. Why is it so? Is because when the Lama is "fierce", then we students act faster?

dondrup

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2011, 04:45:32 AM »
Through countless past lives we (the sentient beings) had accumulated and ‘nurtured’ our delusions to what they are today.  Hence, it is very difficult to transform our minds from a negative state to a positive state.  We need powerful tantric wrathful methods to help us break through. 

We know there 84000 methods that Buddha had taught.  Each method is equally good in terms of treating a specific delusion of the sentient beings. The lama will use whatever appropriate methods to treat a particular delusion. 

Due to the lama’s compassion, he uses wrathful method onto a student in the hope that the student will transform.  This is usually done at the last resort when peaceful methods failed to transform the student concerned. 

These wrathful methods are effective because it directly cuts through our egos and ignorance.  It directly brings out our delusion which remains dormant when it is not being challenged.  It wakes us up.  We are given no option. It is a do-or-die situation.  When the student is placed in that situation, he has to transform.  The student may not be able to transform if he has too strong a negative karma that even the wrathful method cannot help.

Midakpa

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2011, 06:58:25 AM »
I'd like to quote from "Words of My Perfect Teacher" by Patrul Rinpoche:

"When the teacher seems to be furious with you, do not get angry. Instead, remind yourself that he must have glimpsed some fault in you and seen that this is the moment to correct it with such an outburst. When his anger has abated, go to him, confess your faults and vow not to repeat them."

This is one of the ways to follow a spiritual friend.

Wrathful methods are employed mostly in the Vajrayana tradition although it can be found in other schools of Buddhism as well, depending on the personality of the teacher. To have any results, there must be a strong guru-disciple relationship.

negra orquida

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2011, 08:49:02 AM »
Good question.. I wonder why do we tend to be afraid of someone who is wrathful/ angersome? For example in the workplace, we try not to do something stupid that would make the boss angry. Why? What do we fear? The consequence of having the boss get mad and dislike you = no promotion, less project involvement, low increment, even lower bonus... i.e. less rewards.

Does the above also apply for the Guru-Disciple scenario?  Do we fear that we'd fall out of favour, which jump starts us to take corrective action when the Guru is wrathful?

kris

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2011, 09:37:58 AM »
Good question.. I wonder why do we tend to be afraid of someone who is wrathful/ angersome? For example in the workplace, we try not to do something stupid that would make the boss angry. Why? What do we fear? The consequence of having the boss get mad and dislike you = no promotion, less project involvement, low increment, even lower bonus... i.e. less rewards.

Does the above also apply for the Guru-Disciple scenario?  Do we fear that we'd fall out of favour, which jump starts us to take corrective action when the Guru is wrathful?

Yes, in secular work, when boss is angry, it mean no promotion, less project involvement, look bad/stupid, and ultimately means less $$$.

In Dharma work, I felt that when Guru is wrathful, it is not for us to look bad or less $$$, but I am so used to the secular work and immediately don't like it when Guru is wrathful. I will need to remind myself the Guru is doing his best to have us to transform our mind. Also, there are so many things I need to improve, so if the Guru is kind, he would "bother" to use wrathful methods on us (just like parents will yell at us if we don't do our homework...)

lightning

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2011, 10:00:52 AM »
Wrathful method is employed so that it helps to clear negative karma faster and develope wisdom faster too. However not everyone can take it :o Milerepa's Guru had employed wrathful methods to help the former to clear away his karmic debts of murdering a lot of people. It depends on whether you are ready to receive and your mindset of having faith in your Guru even if He employed wrathful method on you without finching or blaming your guru. I have witness that the results are very astonishing if the receiver is very stable and steadfast. At the same time one must visualise the wrathful method employed as blessing received.

hope rainbow

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2011, 01:13:44 PM »
Wow,
Thank you L, I like your post.
If I may, I'd like to copy it.

Wrathful method is employed so that it helps to clear negative karma faster and develope wisdom faster too.

1. It clears negative karma
2. It clears it faster
3. It develops wisdom

However not everyone can take it :o Milerepa's Guru had employed wrathful methods to help the former to clear away his karmic debts of murdering a lot of people.

1. Not everyone can take it indeed, yet everyone can take it. For this I think it depends on a few things, namely:

a) MERIT: one needs enough merit to start with, the merit to meet a Guru that uses wrathful methods, and not everyone has that very rare type of merit. And on this observation, anyone that is experiencing a wrathful Guru should really think over this fact, the fact that it was extremely long and difficult to create the merits for this to happen and then treasure the experience even though it may feel difficult to bare.

b) WISDOM: the wisdom to understand that the wrath experienced, the in-comfort, maybe the shame, all these emotions that in an usual situation we would want to RUN AWAY from, are BENEFICIAL! This is wrath, this is not anger experienced, and it comes from a being that has unconditional and equanimous compassion, with a motivation to BENEFIT us.

It depends on whether you are ready to receive and your mindset of having faith in your Guru even if He employed wrathful method on you without finching or blaming your guru. I have witness that the results are very astonishing if the receiver is very stable and steadfast. At the same time one must visualise the wrathful method employed as blessing received.

With enough merit and wisdom paired with a mind of renunciation and a practice fueled by Guru devotion, most would understand, at least intellectually that wrath experienced by the Guru is one the most wonderful help one can receive to speed one up on the journey of spiritual practice.



biggyboy

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2011, 05:29:42 PM »
When a Guru uses a wrathful means to teach, it is out of the Guru's compassion, kindness and skillful means to help his students.  He will use this means only when other methods has been tried and exhausted for he may have no choice but to go wrathful.  This will depend on the student's mind.  A stable and steadfast mind would not wavered easily for he knows the Guru did it not to hurt him but to guide and pull him back on the path.  Hence, the blessing and propels him on his spiritual path. 

In my opinion, even if student takes it negatively from such wrathful means, ran away and blame it on the Guru, it is still a blessing to the student's mind...a deep imprint.  It will open up when the right situation occurs.

diamond girl

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2011, 05:45:54 PM »
Hope Rainbow and Lightning, thank you.

I understand it quite simply that wrathful means is a rapid way to get us off our negativities and move forward and progress in our dharma journey. Seriously, when were the times that we learnt our best lessons which stuck with us through time and we never forgot? It was when the lesson was hard and pushed us to the next level. We will never know a slap hurts that bad until we get slapped, right? We will never know to be careful when riding a bicycle until we have fallen and there is a scar to remind us, we remember the pain and we will always be careful. People who train for competitive sports do not have it sweet and easy, they are constantly pushed both physically and emotionally, and as a result they excel.

On this note, it is the same with a Guru's wrathful means. In the wrathful means it makes us think hard because we experience pain and remorse and something deep in our soul wants to change so that we do not have to experience the "pain" again.

Tenzin K

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2011, 06:26:15 PM »
As most of the above mentioned, the wrathful or fierce method from the Guru is to purify our negative karma. The feeling from the students towards the fierce it's not just to scarred but is to make us realize our mistake and it go deep inside our heart and mind to feel regret and to transform.

I have experienced this before. Initially it was just like blowing my mind with the loud voice of my Guru it really shake my entire mind and with a mix of guilt and regret feelings. It's with this feeling we will get it to the bottom of our heart to remember it and didn't stop just there. To think of a way to correct our mistake and remind ourselves to not repeat it. We will never want to feel it again.

It's not easy but it's a fast way to change our mind and attitude.   

Positive Change

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2011, 07:53:57 PM »
Wrathful methods yield faster results as it "focuses" on our delusional state of denial, the stubbornness of our state of minds and the eccentricity of our egos.

Peaceful methods do not work as it requires an often sudden and unexpected angle of "attack" to subdue these "demons" within us.

And if these wrathful methods do not work then "Fierce" methods come into play. A skilled Lama will find every and any means to help the student transform. These methods on the surface may seem excessive (as one only dwells on one's own delusional perceptions) but because it is done with great compassion and with pure motivation it is actually the best way to achieve the necessary results.

However it is also dependent on the recipients karma, merits and also their willingness to submit and transform. Rejoice if we have the opportunity to come across such a skillful and compassionate teacher!

hope rainbow

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2012, 06:40:33 AM »
These methods on the surface may seem excessive (as one only dwells on one's own delusional perceptions) but because it is done with great compassion and with pure motivation it is actually the best way to achieve the necessary results.

We live in a world enthroning our EGO's, so it is no surprise we find it shocking when our EGO is threatened.

The fact is that we have enthroned the wrong aspect of our experience of reality, and this enthroned EGO is like a dictator defending its enthronement FIERCELY!
So wrathful means is the fast method to dethrone them, a FIERCE method.

Can a peaceful method work also? Yes, it works but it takes infinitely longer and we only have a few years with out current aggregates, we don't have the luxury of time!

vegeing

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2012, 07:40:49 AM »
I remember when i was really young. i always hide all my home work under my bed. until one day my teacher calling my mum, then .......

at home my mum show me her wrathful face, then i quickly to bring it out ! and do it. sometime people dont understand wrathful & angry!

for my understanding Buddha wrathful is same like my mother. because they love us !!

Ensapa

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2012, 09:55:16 AM »
when a Guru uses wrathful means to teach or get a point across, its usually the last resort and 99% of the time obstacles will mysteriously clear and the situation seems to get better. It works fast because beings respond to unhappiness and pain more than anything else and most of our problems are caused by negative karma and since suffering helps to "waste" away negative karma, they are cleared once we undergo suffering.

KhedrubGyatso

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Re: Why is wrathful teaching gives faster results?
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2012, 11:51:36 AM »
Vajrayana masters have mastered the skill of transformation. A fundamental principle of their methods is to use whatever we are more familiar with to transform us. Eg, if we have been using the left hand to write, we can practice with without having to change to the right hand.
Since fear is a powerful energy , they use it to train us in mindfulness. The reason we enjoy reasonable peace in this world is due in part to fear of  punishment when caught doing something bad. No one will abide by the laws of our country or care about it if there were no punishments if one breaks it.

Naturally , the use of such powerful energies must be tempered with love and compassion and a pure motivation to benefit the person concerned. Using wrath under any other circumstances will be dangerous as it quickly turns into anger which is difficult to control and instead of being a positive motivating force it becomes a destructive force.