Author Topic: Is this a real account of Dorje Shugden or another lie?  (Read 2417 times)

Vajraprotector

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Is this a real account of Dorje Shugden or another lie?
« on: June 16, 2012, 05:17:26 PM »
I was looking for the Praise pf Dorje Shugden by the Fifth Dalai Lama and came across an old article on the Dalai Lama's website. Perhaps someone can help answer these questions and share what you think of this?

Concerning Dolgyal with Reference to the Views of Past Masters and other Related Matters
A talk on Dolgyal by H.H. the Dalai Lama during the course of religious teachings in Dharamsala, October 1997

In the letters and statements that they have recently distributed, proponents of Dolgyal (also known as Shugden) assert that this issue should be understood on two levels - on an interpretable level and on a definitive level. They say, for instance, that even the Fifth Dalai Lama (1617-1682) composed a prayer for assistance (‘prin’ chol) addressed to Dolgyal. Of course, it is difficult for us to prove convincingly whether it belongs to the Fifth Dalai Lama or not.
[Does it mean we have to start questioning all prayers/ sutras/ biographies of Lamas then as we cannot "prove convincingly whether it belongs to the Lama? Also, the prayer written by the 5th Dalai Lama was a praise, and is not the same as "prayer for assistance" I suppose? ]

The Collected Works of the Fifth Dalai Lama are classified into three sections: the five outer volumes, the twenty-five inner volumes, the secret or Kagyama volumes, which consist of the Extensive Secret Visions or Sangwa Gyachen. Previously, this last volume existed only in handwritten form, not in a printed edition. However, eventually it has been published in print.
 
There are outer, inner and secret sections to the Fifth Dalai Lama’s works, but among them you will not find a single ‘prayer for assistance’ addressed to Dolgyal written by the Fifth Dalai Lama. However, let us allow for the possibility that there are some texts by the Fifth Dalai Lama which escaped the notice of the compilers.
 
Regarding the Fifth Dalai Lama’s open statement about Dholgyal, folio 157 (front and back) of the autobiography of the Fifth Dalai Lama called Dukulai Gosang, Volume Kha, Lhasa edition, says:
 
It is well known that at Dol Chumig Karmo (Dol Chumig Karmo is Shugden’s place of origin, where a shrine was constructed to him. He is also referred to as Dolgyal because he is a Gyalpo from Dol Chumig Karmo.

[Does anyone know if Dorje Shugden has any connection with Dol Chumig Karma?]

Gyalpo is a class of interfering spirit. Since Shugden belong to this group, he is also called Gyalchen, the great Gyalpo.) A very powerful perfidious spirit (darn sri, the spirit of one who has deliberately breached his oath or commitment to his lama out of resentment and dissension), born due to distorted prayers, has been harming the teaching of the Buddha and sentient beings in general and in particular. The harmful activity has intensified since the fire-bird (year), 1657, and (the spirit) has been successful in many of his missions. But, as if this did not concern them, hardly anyone has taken any action. At the end of the earth-bird (year), 1669, a new house was constructed at Dol Chumig Karmo and articles were placed there in the hope that it would become a place for the Gyalpo to settle.
 
(H.H. - So, it appears that attempts were made in the beginning to appease it by peaceful means.)
 
However, his harmful activities only intensified and recently many lay and ordained people have been afflicted with diseases and several monks have died. Therefore, all the monks unanimously decided that a fire ritual should be performed.
 
Consequently, two groups of practitioners were organised. One was led by Nagrampa Dhondup Gyatso, who acted as the Vajra Acharya of (a performance of) the Dorje Drolo ritual and the other was led by Nangjung Ngagchang Losang Khyentse, who acted as the Vajra Acharya of (a performance of the) Yangsang Karma Dragpo ritual. Likewise Rigzin Pema Thinley of Dorje Drag, Dharma King Terdag Lingpa, Vugja Lungpa, Drigung Tulku Rinpoche, Katshal Zurpa Ngari Kunchok Lhundup and Palri Tulku performed the Wrathful Lama, Yama, Phurba, Loktri practice for seven days, at the conclusion of which a fire ritual was performed, during which the ‘perfidious spirit’ and his entourage were burnt. Everybody was convinced (of its success because of) the wonderful signs that appeared and the smell of burning flesh that they all witnessed. Thus, many sentient beings were explicitly granted the gift of fearlessness, because their lives were saved. And indirectly these creatures (‘byungpo means creature or evil spirit) were delivered to the peaceful state of being, released from having to experience the intolerable suffering of bad states of rebirth due to their increasingly negative actions.
 
At that time a declaration (zur dpang, refers to the testimony or deposition of a witness) was issued to indicate that these creatures or evil spirits were without protection and refuge. (Consequently), the Dardhingpas of Dorje Drag Monastery compiled mantras. As a religious practice for the deceased, Sera and Drepung Monasteries performed the Prayer of the White Umbrella Deity 44,000 times and recited the Heart Sutra 118,000 times during eleven sessions during which tea was offered in each monastery. As an offering for the recitations, gold coins equal to the value of two Ithals (about 27 kgs) of wheat were given to each monk. At sixty-seven other well- disciplined monasteries in the neighbourhood, tea and gold coins to the value of one Itha] (about 13.5 kgs) of wheat were offered to each monk with a request that they perform the White Umbrella Prayer as many times as possible for the deceased. At Yerpa, the Gyuto monks performed the prayer of appeasement of Gonpo (Mahakala) and Choegyal (Dharmaraja) 693 times, Tenma 1,121,800 times, and the Sixty Section Ritual Cake Offering to Overcome Evil (Drug chu pa’i gTor dog). At Choekhor Gyal they performed rituals to (Palden Lhamo) Magzorma, to Mahakala the Lord of the Tent (Gur and Zhal), and to Begtse and at Gatshal they performed the prayer for appeasing the Dharma protectors in general, 10,000 times and the prayers of the Six Armed (Mahakala), ?Leshin and Vaishravana (rNam sre) 1000 times. At 11 district capitals they performed the Prayer for Invoking the Spirit of the Deity to Vanquish the Enemy (dgra-lha-dpangs-bstod) and other practices to appease local deities and spirits.
 
So, the number and types of prayers that were performed are listed. It is also mentioned that when the exorcism was performed the Fifth Dalai Lama himself issued a declaration (zur dpang) calling on the assembly of Dharma protectors to be just witnesses to the exorcism of this forsaken spirit. This is what appears in the Dukulai Goesang.
 
[It was not mentioned whether this "spirit" was killed though, and if it was really Dorje Shugden, why is He still not "killed" after so many rituals with sign of the smell of burning flesh? Perhaps Dorje Shugden has a great sense of humour? ;D]

Extracted from: http://dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden/speeches-by-his-holiness/dharamsala-teaching

DharmaDefender

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Re: Is this a real account of Dorje Shugden or another lie?
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2012, 06:27:49 PM »
Vajraprotector, not too sure about the rest of your article but on the first point, I very definitely concur. If you want to be brutally honest, anyone can cast doubt over the whole Buddhist canon. They can say that things passed down via an oral lineage is bound to have changed over time and from person to person, based on their interpretation...basically that its a game of Chinese whispers. (however, that argument doesnt hold because the teachings on their own, oral lineage or not, make sense and cant be disproven logically)

Quote
...at the conclusion of which a fire ritual was performed, during which the ‘perfidious spirit’ and his entourage were burnt. Everybody was convinced (of its success because of) the wonderful signs that appeared and the smell of burning flesh that they all witnessed. Thus, many sentient beings were explicitly granted the gift of fearlessness, because their lives were saved. And indirectly these creatures (‘byungpo means creature or evil spirit) were delivered to the peaceful state of being, released from having to experience the intolerable suffering of bad states of rebirth due to their increasingly negative actions.

In their rush to defame Dorje Shugden, theyve invariably put their foot in it.

1) why say sentient beings were granted the gift of fearlessness, when sentient beings today are STILL fearing this supposed spirit?

2) why did those lamas celebrate the death of Dorje Shugden? And how come people are still scared of him today, if he died so many years ago? Were those lamas wrong in celebrating? Did they fail to kill Dorje Shugden? Were those lamas ineffective? Or did Dorje Shugdens lack of karma and therefore enlightenment prevent him from being killed?

jessicajameson

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Re: Is this a real account of Dorje Shugden or another lie?
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2012, 11:43:56 AM »
Vajraprotector, I read the article as well as the declaration written by the 5th Dalai Lama at that time (on the website).

What I find odd is how it can be said that the declaration is true and part of the 5th Dalai Lama's history... and yet, the prayer composed by the 5th Dalai Lama is false. What evidence do the have that the declaration is true? Fair enough if they say that both the prayer and declaration are false, and that their Dorje Shugden standing is based on the 14th Dalai Lama's advice, BUT the very basis of their argument is contradictory!

So they say that historical words are hard to debate upon, then what about Trode Khangsar in Lhasa, Tibet?
DORJE SHUGDEN CHAPEL - Lhasa, Tibet, built by The Dalai Lama Small | Large
/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trode_Khangsar

"In the 17th Century, the Fifth Dalai Lama had Trode Khangsar built in dedication to the Protector Dorje Shugden. The main image ?inside was also commissioned by the 5th Dalai Lama. By the end of the 17th Century, the Fifth Dalai Lama’s Regent Desi Sangye Gyatso entrusted Trode Khangsar to Riwo Choling, a Gelug Monastery.

Today it is in full use and located behind the main Chapel of Jowo Buddha or central Cathedral of Lhasa just off the?main circumambulation circuit or barkor. Many pilgrims visit and monks are available daily performing ?pujas/ceremonies to Dorje Shugden daily. It is open to tourists. This chapel is over 350 years old in the heart of Lhasa."

Besides Trode Khangsar, what about the highly attained lamas who practices Dorje Shugden, Pabongkha Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche, Domo Geshe Rinpoche, Ling Rinpoche, Fourth Khalka Jetsun Dhampa?

What about the credibility of the His Holiness the Dalai Lama's own tutor, Trijang Rinpoche?

What about credibility of Panchen Sonam Drakpa (previous incarnation of Dorje Shugden and tutor to the 3rd Dalai Lama)?

What about the credibility of Kelsang Thubten Jigme Gyatso (DS practitioner and tutor to the 9th Dalai Lama)?

What about the credibility of Tathag Rinpoche (DS practitioner, in charge of the Tibetan Government after the death of the 13th Dalai Lama)?

Why pick on something that they claim to be intangible, and use that as a basis to write-off Dorje Shugden himself?

Lame. Annoying. Very juvenile.

beggar

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Re: Is this a real account of Dorje Shugden or another lie?
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2012, 03:38:49 AM »

Why pick on something that they claim to be intangible, and use that as a basis to write-off Dorje Shugden himself?


This has been the greatest crux of the issue - that there are so many contradictions to the history and biography of Dorje Shugden, and to the nature of DS himself:

- that if he was already killed in the time of the 5th, then why are we still worried about something non-existent?
- that if the 5th Dalai Lama acknowledged him as an enlightened Protector, then why does that same mindstream deny it now?
- that the 14th Dalai Lama himself practised in this life. Why does he deny it now?
- that if Shugden really was so harmful, then why are so many of his most ardent practitioners back among us, their unmistaken incarnations recognised by the Dalai Lama himself?
- that the 14th dalai Lama allows the incarnation of his own root teacher, Trijang Rinpoche, to practice something supposedly so dark.
- And if Trijang Rinpoche COULD control / tame or destroy this "spirit" because he was so powerful, then why hasn't he already?
- the dalai lama's people recognise him as an emanation of Avalokiteshvara. They also recognised Shugden as a spirit and claim he is harmful. So are they saying that a mere "spirit" is more powerful than Avalokiteshvara?

Positive Change

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Re: Is this a real account of Dorje Shugden or another lie?
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2012, 01:50:37 PM »

Why pick on something that they claim to be intangible, and use that as a basis to write-off Dorje Shugden himself?


This has been the greatest crux of the issue - that there are so many contradictions to the history and biography of Dorje Shugden, and to the nature of DS himself:

- that if he was already killed in the time of the 5th, then why are we still worried about something non-existent?
- that if the 5th Dalai Lama acknowledged him as an enlightened Protector, then why does that same mindstream deny it now?
- that the 14th Dalai Lama himself practised in this life. Why does he deny it now?
- that if Shugden really was so harmful, then why are so many of his most ardent practitioners back among us, their unmistaken incarnations recognised by the Dalai Lama himself?
- that the 14th dalai Lama allows the incarnation of his own root teacher, Trijang Rinpoche, to practice something supposedly so dark.
- And if Trijang Rinpoche COULD control / tame or destroy this "spirit" because he was so powerful, then why hasn't he already?
- the dalai lama's people recognise him as an emanation of Avalokiteshvara. They also recognised Shugden as a spirit and claim he is harmful. So are they saying that a mere "spirit" is more powerful than Avalokiteshvara?

Brilliant Beggar!!!! Not one reason, not two... but 7 reasons why Dorje Shugden could not possibly be this "spirit" some claim. If Dorje Shugden were indeed a spirit all the questions above would be answered! In a court of law we would call this, beyond a reasonable doubt!!!! ;)

It is incredible how some people will dance around the issues that are so blatant and use HHDL name purely to push a point across without logic or reason. Thinking that merely mentioning HHDL name is justification enough to make points valid. HHDL is indeed an emanation of Avalokiteshvara but let us not use his name in vain please! Have some decency to find out, research and back up one's arguments.

Thank you again Beggar for this brilliant summary... If this doesn't shut some people up, there really is no point in a discourse or debate is there because they would be too close minded to even want to hear you out!

dsiluvu

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Re: Is this a real account of Dorje Shugden or another lie?
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2012, 03:35:20 PM »
BECAUSE THEY DO NOT HAVE ANYTHING TANGIBLE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

All this silly made up reasons are all they could think of to give the village people... and they know their people well... they won't think further and deeper and well they won't even question for it will be out you go - excommunicated and ostracised!!! Who would dare?!

And those that DARED... well they set up shop next door... hence we have the grand SHAR GADEN ;)
In a funny little way we need to say THANK YOU to them. Because now they will NO LONGER be able to...

1) Can't take our practice ever away from us cos we are no longer under them
2) Can't tell us what we can and cannot do because we are no longer under them
3) No need to abide in their rules because we already broke them all and no longer under them
4) No need to share or sponsors and resources with them because... oh well we're just no pure what! so more for us yay!
5) No need to participate in any of their political silly protest or feel obligated to be involved in any event that will make more enemies and we can just focus on our Dharma and Practice :)
6) We can create our own rules, start our own movements, create world peace in fair way where all is equal and be friends with anyone, even CHINA and spread DHARMA because well we're not under them CTA anymore!!!
7) Finally NO need to kiss their xxx any more!

I guess if u have lemons... make lemonades ;)




Vajraprotector

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Re: Is this a real account of Dorje Shugden or another lie?
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2012, 03:26:25 AM »
There are indeed many contradictions to the history and biography of Dorje Shugden. I am not surprised because we are talking about people who can remove names of masters like Trijang Rinpoche and Pabongka Rinpoche from common (lineage) prayers and paintings. Hence, good sources of reference could have been destroyed too.

Also, in recognising Pabongka Rinpoche, the name "Changkya" was ruled out due to political reasons and Pabongka Rinpoche was declared to be "Pabongka" instead.  (Khen Rinpoche Geshe Lobsang Tharchin, The Principal Teachings of Buddhism)

It seems that all these baseless accusations, lies are destroying their own tradition and lineage, all for political purposes, but Tibet is still going nowhere. I think we do not need to be reminded that Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen's murder was also a political move. Perhaps beneath all these politics, there were indeed higher reasons and I do hope that these negative actions do not need to be repeated because it reflects badly on Tibetan Buddhism.

Ensapa

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Re: Is this a real account of Dorje Shugden or another lie?
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2012, 09:21:34 AM »
No matter how one wants to see it, it is pretty obvious that the Dalai Lama and the CTA cannot come up with concrete evidence against Dorje Shugden and all they have are smokescreens and lies that can be easily penetrated once someone does even some very basic investigation. The fact that many scholars nowadays choose to be biased is a bad thing because while it makes things easier for them, it misleads many other people who finds it more convenient to depend on the research of others for their own convenience. I keep wondering why do people not do their own investigation before they form a final opinion on Dorje Shugden?!