Whats happening with Dorje Shugden movie ?

[Zach]

I agree Thai monk I here the Dorje Shugden oracles are highly accurate. While the NKT doesnt do reliance upon oracles Geshe-la doesnt disparge those whom do as such like his own spiritual guide and many of his students relied upon and still rely upon Dorje shugden oracles. The difference being that the NKT is trying to present the Dharma in accordence with western culture and oracles are rather alien to the modern west. While not suitable for what the NKT is aiming to do there is certainly nothing wrong with relying upon the Great king when he takes form through a medium, I would love to be able to meet some and receive advise but i guess i will just have to settle for the occasional dream manifested advise which to date has been extremly helpful 

[DharmaSpace]

I work with software and programming and in programing you have either 0 or 1. there is no 0.5.

What I am driving at is if we trust our linage lamas of which so many are highly advanced with many incarnations, we belief them, their words their teachings etc, why don't we also trust the oracles they have set up for example the great Dromo Geshe Rinpoche who set up the Dungkar Oracle. Go all the way with it not to be selective based on our wisdom.

[jessicajameson]

I work with software and programming and in programing you have either 0 or 1. there is no 0.5.

What I am driving at is if we trust our linage lamas of which so many are highly advanced with many incarnations, we belief them, their words their teachings etc, why don't we also trust the oracles they have set up for example the great Dromo Geshe Rinpoche who set up the Dungkar Oracle. Go all the way with it not to be selective based on our wisdom.

What a good way of putting it: 0 or 1, no way or all the way!

It's true what you've written though. I read somewhere that there are many high lamas out there who have been recognized and have gotten the seal of approval (on the authenticity of their recognized reincarnation) from different protectors e.g. Dorje Shugden, through oracles. Is this true?

Here is a good (but very short) article on Choyang Kuten Lama being recognized as an oracle (http://www.kolumbus.fi/hemming.paroll/KutenLama02.html) - question, besides having one oracle recognizing another potential oracle, is there any other way that the oracle can be recognized? Can one choose to be one?

Btw, I heard that apparently when Nechung is taking trance in an oracle -- the oracles breath smells like alcohol!! This is despite the oracle not ever touching any spirits...odd.

[Big Uncle]

Based on the arguments presented here, i have come to have greater faith in the authentic oracles of Dorje Shugden. I think if it was good enough for Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and Kyabje Zong Rinpoche, it must also be alright for me. Hence, it wouldn't be wise to put this sacred tradition down in any way even if we ourselves don't have faith in this tradition or we can't perceive its benefits.

I believe the oracle the makers of this film have consulted is an authentic oracle of Dorje Shugden and so Dorje Shugden must have seen that it would indeed be beneficial but now is not the time yet. How humble and skillful! If it was any other haughty deity, he would want the film that promotes the deity be made quickly so he gets more worshippers and offerings and temples built. It must have been the advice of Dorje Shugden himself.

[WisdomBeing]

I agree Thai monk I here the Dorje Shugden oracles are highly accurate. While the NKT doesnt do reliance upon oracles Geshe-la doesnt disparge those whom do as such like his own spiritual guide and many of his students relied upon and still rely upon Dorje shugden oracles. The difference being that the NKT is trying to present the Dharma in accordence with western culture and oracles are rather alien to the modern west. While not suitable for what the NKT is aiming to do there is certainly nothing wrong with relying upon the Great king when he takes form through a medium, I would love to be able to meet some and receive advise but i guess i will just have to settle for the occasional dream manifested advise which to date has been extremly helpful 

Hi Zach

It's interesting that you say that oracles are alien to the west because in London, consulting mediums and tarot card readers is really quite common. Perhaps Geshe Kelsang Gyatso wants to distinguish between the medium/tarot card consulting public and genuine Dharma seekers.

I'm glad you agree that there is nothing wrong with seeking advice from the Great King himself. I hear that his advice is very accurate and sometimes appear surprising and illogical, but if you follow his advice with faith, the logic will surface later.

[Zach]

I agree Thai monk I here the Dorje Shugden oracles are highly accurate. While the NKT doesnt do reliance upon oracles Geshe-la doesnt disparge those whom do as such like his own spiritual guide and many of his students relied upon and still rely upon Dorje shugden oracles. The difference being that the NKT is trying to present the Dharma in accordence with western culture and oracles are rather alien to the modern west. While not suitable for what the NKT is aiming to do there is certainly nothing wrong with relying upon the Great king when he takes form through a medium, I would love to be able to meet some and receive advise but i guess i will just have to settle for the occasional dream manifested advise which to date has been extremly helpful 

Hi Zach

It's interesting that you say that oracles are alien to the west because in London, consulting mediums and tarot card readers is really quite common. Perhaps Geshe Kelsang Gyatso wants to distinguish between the medium/tarot card consulting public and genuine Dharma seekers.

I'm glad you agree that there is nothing wrong with seeking advice from the Great King himself. I hear that his advice is very accurate and sometimes appear surprising and illogical, but if you follow his advice with faith, the logic will surface later.

Having you palms read by the local Gypsy is one thing seeing the Dorje shugden oracle go through the ritual and then go into trance is another 
Do remember friend that in the western culture while there may be mediums and so on these are not really accepted as the norm and are generally considered to be spirits and so on, If people come to a Dharma centre for instance knowing little and they witness the Great king go into trance via his oracle they may well develop harmful misunderstandings of what Dharma is about mistaking it for backward ritualism and spirit worship. Now there is certainly nothing wrong with Dharma oracles they bring enlightened beings a bit closer to us for advise and I throughly rejoice in those that wish to keep this tradition going as its very helpful but for the NKT it is not the presentation Geshe-la wishes to give people but something a bit more simple and relatable to. Because we do not practise this oracle tradition it doesnt mean we should disrespect it or disparge those whom rely upon it as it is completely valid but as I said its not the presentation that the NKT is seeking to present.

[WisdomBeing]

Having you palms read by the local Gypsy is one thing seeing the Dorje shugden oracle go through the ritual and then go into trance is another 
Do remember friend that in the western culture while there may be mediums and so on these are not really accepted as the norm and are generally considered to be spirits and so on, If people come to a Dharma centre for instance knowing little and they witness the Great king go into trance via his oracle they may well develop harmful misunderstandings of what Dharma is about mistaking it for backward ritualism and spirit worship. Now there is certainly nothing wrong with Dharma oracles they bring enlightened beings a bit closer to us for advise and I throughly rejoice in those that wish to keep this tradition going as its very helpful but for the NKT it is not the presentation Geshe-la wishes to give people but something a bit more simple and relatable to. Because we do not practise this oracle tradition it doesnt mean we should disrespect it or disparge those whom rely upon it as it is completely valid but as I said its not the presentation that the NKT is seeking to present.

Hi Zach,

I get what you're saying - re Geshe Kelsang Gyatso wishing to give people something simple and easy to relate to. I have no issue with that. Likewise with the Tulku issue, I am sure he makes his stand so that there is no need to debate which incarnation is real etc. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is a very wise monk and I am sure he will do everything he can to bring Dharma to others and his students should follow everything he says.

I must say that I like the way the forum is going these days - there is respect for different points of views... such a welcome respite and i think that any new person coming here would have a more positive view of Dorje Shugden practitioners.

Cheers!

[thaimonk]

I agree Thai monk I here the Dorje Shugden oracles are highly accurate. While the NKT doesnt do reliance upon oracles Geshe-la doesnt disparge those whom do as such like his own spiritual guide and many of his students relied upon and still rely upon Dorje shugden oracles. The difference being that the NKT is trying to present the Dharma in accordence with western culture and oracles are rather alien to the modern west. While not suitable for what the NKT is aiming to do there is certainly nothing wrong with relying upon the Great king when he takes form through a medium, I would love to be able to meet some and receive advise but i guess i will just have to settle for the occasional dream manifested advise which to date has been extremly helpful 

Hi Zach

It's interesting that you say that oracles are alien to the west because in London, consulting mediums and tarot card readers is really quite common. Perhaps Geshe Kelsang Gyatso wants to distinguish between the medium/tarot card consulting public and genuine Dharma seekers.

I'm glad you agree that there is nothing wrong with seeking advice from the Great King himself. I hear that his advice is very accurate and sometimes appear surprising and illogical, but if you follow his advice with faith, the logic will surface later.

Having you palms read by the local Gypsy is one thing seeing the Dorje shugden oracle go through the ritual and then go into trance is another 
Do remember friend that in the western culture while there may be mediums and so on these are not really accepted as the norm and are generally considered to be spirits and so on, If people come to a Dharma centre for instance knowing little and they witness the Great king go into trance via his oracle they may well develop harmful misunderstandings of what Dharma is about mistaking it for backward ritualism and spirit worship. Now there is certainly nothing wrong with Dharma oracles they bring enlightened beings a bit closer to us for advise and I throughly rejoice in those that wish to keep this tradition going as its very helpful but for the NKT it is not the presentation Geshe-la wishes to give people but something a bit more simple and relatable to. Because we do not practise this oracle tradition it doesnt mean we should disrespect it or disparge those whom rely upon it as it is completely valid but as I said its not the presentation that the NKT is seeking to present.

Dear zach, please don't be so Western-centric. Not everything revolves around our Westerners and what we think. On the other side of the coin, NKT could be losing out on a tradition as practiced by our lineage lamas.

In the east, this tradition is alive, valuable and very much respected. Remember there are more people in the east than the West. In many of the Dorje Shugden Tibetan Buddhist centres around the world both East and West get assistance from the oracles. And have been greatly benefitted by them in fact.

You are right, there is absolutely nothing wrong with consulting the Dorje Shugden oracles. It is an incredible event when King Dorje Shugden takes trance and speaks. A decade or more ago, Dorje Shugden took trance in Choyang Dulzin Kuten in Manjushri Centre of NKT and gave the Avalokitesvara initiation. Dorje Shugden himself conferred the initiation through the oracle in NKT. That was very valid. Many senior NKT ppl are still engaged in the practice of Chenresig from that occasion.

[DSFriend]

I apologise if I caused offence, my post was somewhat harsh and uncalled for.

Both you and I have different views when it comes to oracles.  I'm just aware that the Nechung oracle, for example has been part of the problem regarding Dorje Shugden.  The Dalai Lama relies heavily on oracles, it seems, and this seems to have exacerbated his loss of faith in Dorje Shugden.  I'm also aware that Buddha Shakyamuni and Buddha Vajradhara never taught reliance on oracles, but many people argue they never taught Dorje Shugden either so who am I to say whether this is a valid practice or not.

We are both Dorje Shugden practitioners and we follow different traditions, it's not right for me find fault with your beliefs, so once again please accept my apologies, I won't mention oracles again.  Peace.

I am so glad you are coming to terms that we have different belief systems. I appreciate this tremendously. I am so glad that you mention we belong to the same protector because you are right. You will have your tradition/lama and I will have mine. They are both not wrong, just a different approach. Your tradition do not accept oracles, tulkus, etc, mine does. Who is right? After all, we both pretty much believe what we believe because of our teachers. Both our teachers cannot be wrong although their methods differ tremendously. That is ok. We are the products of our lamas/traditions. So if you criticize what I believe, what would you like me to do? Say what my lama taught me is wrong? It would be the same for you.

Dear Thaimonk
I appreciate these thoughts and advice very much... Though it's a response to Lineageholder but it applies to every practitioner. It is not easy to have a grasp of what guru devotion is with a "proprietary", "mine is better" mind set.

It doesn't have to mean that when we see differing actions from different lamas, that there is something drastically WRONG.

[Zach]

I agree Thai monk I here the Dorje Shugden oracles are highly accurate. While the NKT doesnt do reliance upon oracles Geshe-la doesnt disparge those whom do as such like his own spiritual guide and many of his students relied upon and still rely upon Dorje shugden oracles. The difference being that the NKT is trying to present the Dharma in accordence with western culture and oracles are rather alien to the modern west. While not suitable for what the NKT is aiming to do there is certainly nothing wrong with relying upon the Great king when he takes form through a medium, I would love to be able to meet some and receive advise but i guess i will just have to settle for the occasional dream manifested advise which to date has been extremly helpful 

Hi Zach

It's interesting that you say that oracles are alien to the west because in London, consulting mediums and tarot card readers is really quite common. Perhaps Geshe Kelsang Gyatso wants to distinguish between the medium/tarot card consulting public and genuine Dharma seekers.

I'm glad you agree that there is nothing wrong with seeking advice from the Great King himself. I hear that his advice is very accurate and sometimes appear surprising and illogical, but if you follow his advice with faith, the logic will surface later.

Having you palms read by the local Gypsy is one thing seeing the Dorje shugden oracle go through the ritual and then go into trance is another 
Do remember friend that in the western culture while there may be mediums and so on these are not really accepted as the norm and are generally considered to be spirits and so on, If people come to a Dharma centre for instance knowing little and they witness the Great king go into trance via his oracle they may well develop harmful misunderstandings of what Dharma is about mistaking it for backward ritualism and spirit worship. Now there is certainly nothing wrong with Dharma oracles they bring enlightened beings a bit closer to us for advise and I throughly rejoice in those that wish to keep this tradition going as its very helpful but for the NKT it is not the presentation Geshe-la wishes to give people but something a bit more simple and relatable to. Because we do not practise this oracle tradition it doesnt mean we should disrespect it or disparge those whom rely upon it as it is completely valid but as I said its not the presentation that the NKT is seeking to present.

Dear zach, please don't be so Western-centric. Not everything revolves around our Westerners and what we think. On the other side of the coin, NKT could be losing out on a tradition as practiced by our lineage lamas.

In the east, this tradition is alive, valuable and very much respected. Remember there are more people in the east than the West. In many of the Dorje Shugden Tibetan Buddhist centres around the world both East and West get assistance from the oracles. And have been greatly benefitted by them in fact.

You are right, there is absolutely nothing wrong with consulting the Dorje Shugden oracles. It is an incredible event when King Dorje Shugden takes trance and speaks. A decade or more ago, Dorje Shugden took trance in Choyang Dulzin Kuten in Manjushri Centre of NKT and gave the Avalokitesvara initiation. Dorje Shugden himself conferred the initiation through the oracle in NKT. That was very valid. Many senior NKT ppl are still engaged in the practice of Chenresig from that occasion.

I dont know Thaimonk, All I know is Geshe-la is as my spiritual guide and if he see's fit not to include oracles on into the NKT at this time thats perfectly fine. I realize some people think being western centric is a bad thing but this isnt Tibet or India we live in where people are more karmically attunded to stuff like that. 

[thaimonk]

I agree Thai monk I here the Dorje Shugden oracles are highly accurate. While the NKT doesnt do reliance upon oracles Geshe-la doesnt disparge those whom do as such like his own spiritual guide and many of his students relied upon and still rely upon Dorje shugden oracles. The difference being that the NKT is trying to present the Dharma in accordence with western culture and oracles are rather alien to the modern west. While not suitable for what the NKT is aiming to do there is certainly nothing wrong with relying upon the Great king when he takes form through a medium, I would love to be able to meet some and receive advise but i guess i will just have to settle for the occasional dream manifested advise which to date has been extremly helpful 

Hi Zach

It's interesting that you say that oracles are alien to the west because in London, consulting mediums and tarot card readers is really quite common. Perhaps Geshe Kelsang Gyatso wants to distinguish between the medium/tarot card consulting public and genuine Dharma seekers.

I'm glad you agree that there is nothing wrong with seeking advice from the Great King himself. I hear that his advice is very accurate and sometimes appear surprising and illogical, but if you follow his advice with faith, the logic will surface later.

Having you palms read by the local Gypsy is one thing seeing the Dorje shugden oracle go through the ritual and then go into trance is another 
Do remember friend that in the western culture while there may be mediums and so on these are not really accepted as the norm and are generally considered to be spirits and so on, If people come to a Dharma centre for instance knowing little and they witness the Great king go into trance via his oracle they may well develop harmful misunderstandings of what Dharma is about mistaking it for backward ritualism and spirit worship. Now there is certainly nothing wrong with Dharma oracles they bring enlightened beings a bit closer to us for advise and I throughly rejoice in those that wish to keep this tradition going as its very helpful but for the NKT it is not the presentation Geshe-la wishes to give people but something a bit more simple and relatable to. Because we do not practise this oracle tradition it doesnt mean we should disrespect it or disparge those whom rely upon it as it is completely valid but as I said its not the presentation that the NKT is seeking to present.

Dear zach, please don't be so Western-centric. Not everything revolves around our Westerners and what we think. On the other side of the coin, NKT could be losing out on a tradition as practiced by our lineage lamas.

In the east, this tradition is alive, valuable and very much respected. Remember there are more people in the east than the West. In many of the Dorje Shugden Tibetan Buddhist centres around the world both East and West get assistance from the oracles. And have been greatly benefitted by them in fact.

You are right, there is absolutely nothing wrong with consulting the Dorje Shugden oracles. It is an incredible event when King Dorje Shugden takes trance and speaks. A decade or more ago, Dorje Shugden took trance in Choyang Dulzin Kuten in Manjushri Centre of NKT and gave the Avalokitesvara initiation. Dorje Shugden himself conferred the initiation through the oracle in NKT. That was very valid. Many senior NKT ppl are still engaged in the practice of Chenresig from that occasion.

I dont know Thaimonk, All I know is Geshe-la is as my spiritual guide and if he see's fit not to include oracles on into the NKT at this time thats perfectly fine. I realize some people think being western centric is a bad thing but this isnt Tibet or India we live in where people are more karmically attunded to stuff like that. 

Geshe la is your spiritual guide and he sees fit not to include oracles for you. That is fine. My spiritual teacher does include oracles for his students. My teacher's view is different than your Geshe-la. So when one who does not include oracles criticize those who do include it, you should know that is not right.

So make it simple. I have never criticized those who do not include oracles, but many of you have criticized me for including oracles as part of my tradition. My spiritual teacher resides in America and all his students reside there mostly also. And they all love the benefits they have received from consulting oracles. And so do I. So it has nothing to do with being in India or Tibet, but respecting other tradtions with no criticisms.

[Zach]

I agree Thai monk I here the Dorje Shugden oracles are highly accurate. While the NKT doesnt do reliance upon oracles Geshe-la doesnt disparge those whom do as such like his own spiritual guide and many of his students relied upon and still rely upon Dorje shugden oracles. The difference being that the NKT is trying to present the Dharma in accordence with western culture and oracles are rather alien to the modern west. While not suitable for what the NKT is aiming to do there is certainly nothing wrong with relying upon the Great king when he takes form through a medium, I would love to be able to meet some and receive advise but i guess i will just have to settle for the occasional dream manifested advise which to date has been extremly helpful 

Hi Zach

It's interesting that you say that oracles are alien to the west because in London, consulting mediums and tarot card readers is really quite common. Perhaps Geshe Kelsang Gyatso wants to distinguish between the medium/tarot card consulting public and genuine Dharma seekers.

I'm glad you agree that there is nothing wrong with seeking advice from the Great King himself. I hear that his advice is very accurate and sometimes appear surprising and illogical, but if you follow his advice with faith, the logic will surface later.

Having you palms read by the local Gypsy is one thing seeing the Dorje shugden oracle go through the ritual and then go into trance is another 
Do remember friend that in the western culture while there may be mediums and so on these are not really accepted as the norm and are generally considered to be spirits and so on, If people come to a Dharma centre for instance knowing little and they witness the Great king go into trance via his oracle they may well develop harmful misunderstandings of what Dharma is about mistaking it for backward ritualism and spirit worship. Now there is certainly nothing wrong with Dharma oracles they bring enlightened beings a bit closer to us for advise and I throughly rejoice in those that wish to keep this tradition going as its very helpful but for the NKT it is not the presentation Geshe-la wishes to give people but something a bit more simple and relatable to. Because we do not practise this oracle tradition it doesnt mean we should disrespect it or disparge those whom rely upon it as it is completely valid but as I said its not the presentation that the NKT is seeking to present.

Dear zach, please don't be so Western-centric. Not everything revolves around our Westerners and what we think. On the other side of the coin, NKT could be losing out on a tradition as practiced by our lineage lamas.

In the east, this tradition is alive, valuable and very much respected. Remember there are more people in the east than the West. In many of the Dorje Shugden Tibetan Buddhist centres around the world both East and West get assistance from the oracles. And have been greatly benefitted by them in fact.

You are right, there is absolutely nothing wrong with consulting the Dorje Shugden oracles. It is an incredible event when King Dorje Shugden takes trance and speaks. A decade or more ago, Dorje Shugden took trance in Choyang Dulzin Kuten in Manjushri Centre of NKT and gave the Avalokitesvara initiation. Dorje Shugden himself conferred the initiation through the oracle in NKT. That was very valid. Many senior NKT ppl are still engaged in the practice of Chenresig from that occasion.

I dont know Thaimonk, All I know is Geshe-la is as my spiritual guide and if he see's fit not to include oracles on into the NKT at this time thats perfectly fine. I realize some people think being western centric is a bad thing but this isnt Tibet or India we live in where people are more karmically attunded to stuff like that. 

Geshe la is your spiritual guide and he sees fit not to include oracles for you. That is fine. My spiritual teacher does include oracles for his students. My teacher's view is different than your Geshe-la. So when one who does not include oracles criticize those who do include it, you should know that is not right.

So make it simple. I have never criticized those who do not include oracles, but many of you have criticized me for including oracles as part of my tradition. My spiritual teacher resides in America and all his students reside there mostly also. And they all love the benefits they have received from consulting oracles. And so do I. So it has nothing to do with being in India or Tibet, but respecting other tradtions with no criticisms.

Im sorry If I have critised the oracle institution please accept my apologise it has never been my intention, My only intention is to point out that what peoples spiritual guides feel is appropriate for them is what they should be doing not critising other spiritual guides choices on what to or not include as they take the traditions west wards. 

[Losang_Tenpa]

I am still in close contact with the people who are producing the Dorje Shugden movie and was just told today that they were advised to approach the Oracle again to see if the time to begin production is near. Things could start to move rather quickly once the blessings of Dorje Shugden are given.

Many Lamas have already given their approval for the project and have also pledged support.

I was invited to help with some of the details of the project and hope to assist the crew in whatever way I am able.

If there are specific questions regarding the production of the movie, send me a message and I will see what I can do to get answers for you.


These days I am very busy at the monastery and regrettably do not have much time to post here on the forum. I do check in from time to time and am glad to see so many new topics being discussed.

Much love from Shar Gaden,

T.S.

[triesa]

I apologise if I caused offence, my post was somewhat harsh and uncalled for.

Both you and I have different views when it comes to oracles.  I'm just aware that the Nechung oracle, for example has been part of the problem regarding Dorje Shugden.  The Dalai Lama relies heavily on oracles, it seems, and this seems to have exacerbated his loss of faith in Dorje Shugden.  I'm also aware that Buddha Shakyamuni and Buddha Vajradhara never taught reliance on oracles, but many people argue they never taught Dorje Shugden either so who am I to say whether this is a valid practice or not.

We are both Dorje Shugden practitioners and we follow different traditions, it's not right for me find fault with your beliefs, so once again please accept my apologies, I won't mention oracles again.  Peace.

Dear Lineageholder, 

What you worte is so beautiful, accepting differences without criticising one and other can create so much harmony and peace. The basis for all humanity.

[WisdomBeing]

I am still in close contact with the people who are producing the Dorje Shugden movie and was just told today that they were advised to approach the Oracle again to see if the time to begin production is near. Things could start to move rather quickly once the blessings of Dorje Shugden are given.

Many Lamas have already given their approval for the project and have also pledged support.

I was invited to help with some of the details of the project and hope to assist the crew in whatever way I am able.

If there are specific questions regarding the production of the movie, send me a message and I will see what I can do to get answers for you.


These days I am very busy at the monastery and regrettably do not have much time to post here on the forum. I do check in from time to time and am glad to see so many new topics being discussed.

Much love from Shar Gaden,

T.S.

Hi Tenzin Sungrab

Great that you are close to the producers of the movie. I know you said message you but i think that it'd be best to post in the forum so that more people can rejoice in movie that will hopefully bring awareness of our Protector to many people.

You mentioned that many Lamas support this project - are you at liberty to disclose any of them?

thanks!