There's A Real Domo Geshe Rinpoche Incarnation

[LosangKhyentse]

There are two Domo Geshe Rinpoche incarnations. One is recognized by HH Dalai Lama and the other by HH the current Trijang Rinpoche.

The Tulku system may have it's flaws and can be abused but that does not mean all Tulkus recognized are false, or all tulkus are wrong or the tulku system is not to be believed in. Sweeping statements are not necessary. It's important to think and observe for oneself before criticism of high beings or a system advocated by great lamas. We should not jump into a river and be carried away by the heavy currents.

There are three Temples that were built and started by Domo Geshe Rinpoche's (DGR) previous illustrious and perfect Tulku manifestation in North India that are functioning today.  Also his large centre in Upper New York State in the US.

His Holiness the current Trijang Rinpoche recognized Dome Geshe Rinpoche and he was officially enthroned in his monastery in North India and has entered Shar Gaden Monastery already.
( Enthronement: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=516 ) To counter this, Sera Jey Monastery had another DGR recognized and received a seal from HH Dalai Lama and they enthroned the second one in Sera Jey. The picture Lama Zopa took together with is the Sera Jey one.

So the tulku system is fine. Just follow, believe, trust and observe the one recognized by HH Trijang Rinpoche. Remain silent of criticism, offer pujas, good wishes, and merits for the success of this one. It is important especially after the passing of HH Dalai Lama (sorry). This Tulkus will be VERY IMPORTANT THEN.

After all, HH Dalai Lama recognized Lama Osel (Lama Thupten Yeshe's incarnation) and that has not worked out well so far for FPMT. Quite embarrassing it has been for them.. Lama Osel has given up all ties to FPMT. Results of broken samaya/practice.

HH Dalai Lama recognized the Panchen Lama and he is gone now. The new Panchen is accepted by the 1.2 billion people of China, and it doesn't matter what the 6 million of Tibet thinks I'm sorry to say. This new Panchen seems to be doing a very good job in China so far.

Two of DGR's temples in North India and the New York State Centre side their allegiance to Trijiang Rinpoche's chosen Tulku. One of the North Indian Temples sides with the Dalai lama's choice.

It will be interesting to see what happens. Make it simple, the Tulku system like any system is flawed, but that does not mean it has not worked and will not work again.

I wish His Eminenence Domo Geshe Rinpoche long life, health, hard working students, his entourage to grow, his dharma work to shine again and to proliferate the Gaden tradition as protected by Wrathful Manjushri Dorje Shugden.

TK

[Zach]

When In doubt Trust Ven Trijang. 

Tk do you know of anyone stories associated with the search for Domo geshe's incarnation or any accounts from his close students ?

[DharmaDefender]

So the tulku system is fine. Just follow, believe, trust and observe the one recognized by HH Trijang Rinpoche. Remain silent of criticism, offer pujas, good wishes, and merits for the success of this one. It is important especially after the passing of HH Dalai Lama (sorry). This Tulkus will be VERY IMPORTANT THEN.

If I'm not mistaken, being tulkus they can emanate in more than one form, meaning there can be two incarnations in this life, can't there? Meaning both incarnations can be equally valid...and because we can't tell, it wouldn't do us any good to criticise one or the other.

Either way, let's rejoice - both boys are now receiving a good monastic education. That's one less person in this world to run riot off the Dharma path.

[Big Uncle]

Dear Zhalmed Pawo,

I think what Tk meant was to watch the actions of a real Tulku and be inspired by his Dharma activities. A Tulku will always spread the Dharma and in this case, Dorje Shugden's lineage farther and wider than any of us can ever do. That is a hallmark of a real Tulku. They are recognised and enthroned so it makes it easier for them to spread the Dharma. We don't need to bow to a Tulku to venerate him as god, but we need to bow to their attainments and teachings so we get ourselves inspired and follow their same path.

Why don't we just practise the Dharma? Well, we are practising the Dharma when we inspire ourselves with the Dharma. That's what a Tulku is all about. Where there is a Tulku, there is the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. It is the Tulkus that really inspire people with the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha.... not the statues and books. (I have never heard of anyone gaining attainments from books) None of us have the attainments to receive direct teachings from Buddha Shakyamuni. Buddha lived 2500 years ago and very few people today relate to a holy figure that lived so long ago. Hence, the Buddha has emanated today as Tulkus and teachers that inspire us with their practice and teachings.

Maybe for you, statues and books inspire you but for the masses, a living master inspires them. You may not see it that way but many would and they would sincerely practice because of these masters. Hence, it would not be nice to discourage that.

[DharmaDefender]

It will be interesting to see what happens. Make it simple, the Tulku system like any system is flawed, but that does not mean it has not worked and will not work again.

One more thing - I think that's a good tack to take, to wait and see. Let's evaluate these boys based on their results, not based on what or who people say they are. It's a little sad to say, but a title will mean less if they do not use it well. After all, we see in examples like Lama Osel where, for whatever reason, tulkus don't fulfil the roles they are supposed to in their lifetimes. And there are plenty of people who have no titles, who accomplish a lot. So yeah, let's wait and see.

[WisdomBeing]

A Dharma title is similar to a secular one in that a title will convey certain qualities which the person has achieved. For example, if someone is a CEO of a company, you will immediately assume that this person is capable, intelligent, business minded etc etc, but whether that person is a good CEO or not, will be assessed over time. Doesn't mean that CEOs in general are good or bad but that particular CEO may be a good one or not, depending on their result. Similarly with a tulku, if someone is identified as a tulku, many people will assume that this person is attained etc. but over time, the qualities will emerge. No one can pretend to be something they are not consistently and over time.

However, going back to the Lama Osel issue, i don't think that Lama Osel's leaving monastic life and going into film making necessarily makes him a fake or a 'bad' tulku. I believe that it's merely the result of the karma of his students which have brought this on. Likewise, people can say much about HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche - he should be in the monastery, he should champion Dorje Shugden, he should not be married etc. but again who are we to judge? If we saw Birwapa, we'd have said he was a drunkard who wouldn't pay his dues, or that he was consorting with women in the monastery and we'd heartily agree that he should be pilloried - as he was.

I think that titles are not essential as the qualities and results of a person - whoever they may be - would show in time and over time. I do sympathise with young tulku title holders as there is much more pressure on them than anyone else. I'm sure a few young tulkus schooling in the monasteries may wish to be just like the ordinary monks, without the tremendous pressure to perform. Because of their title, they have much to live up to.

[thaimonk]

It will be interesting to see what happens. Make it simple, the Tulku system like any system is flawed, but that does not mean it has not worked and will not work again.

One more thing - I think that's a good tack to take, to wait and see. Let's evaluate these boys based on their results, not based on what or who people say they are. It's a little sad to say, but a title will mean less if they do not use it well. After all, we see in examples like Lama Osel where, for whatever reason, tulkus don't fulfil the roles they are supposed to in their lifetimes. And there are plenty of people who have no titles, who accomplish a lot. So yeah, let's wait and see.

There are plenty of ppl who have no titles who accomplish so much. There are plenty with titles that accomplish very much also. There are those who are tulkus without titles that accomplish many things. There are tulkus with titles who also do.
The point is whether they have titles or not, THERE ARE TULKUS. The issue is not their titles, the issue is there are tulkus and they are real. They are real not based on your belief. They are real based on their sincere generation to bring benefit to others through many lifetimes of mind cultivation.

Since we all accept reincarnation. We accept attainments, Why not reincarnation with attainments? Certainly attainments do not disappear with a change of a body when we reincarnate. So therefore tulkus do exist. Hungry ghosts exists. The hells exist. Life on other planets exist. Gods exists. Demi-gods exist. Bodhsisattvas exists. Not everything needs to be meaurable by our extremely limited minds for it's existence. Their existence does not depend on our recognition or belief.
But they exist and do not need to function in the way that we deem fit.

The secret to discovery of anything is accepting the way they might exist not the way we think some phenomena should or should not exist. 

[Lineageholder]

Either way, let's rejoice - both boys are now receiving a good monastic education. That's one less person in this world to run riot off the Dharma path.

Not necessarily - there are many Tulkus who have, apparently, turned their back on the Dharma even though they were recognised and educated.  Sometimes, as was the case for Lama Osel', it was the good monastic education that drove them over the edge.

Some such cases are documented by Vicki Mackenzie in her book 'Reborn in the West'

[WisdomBeing]

There are plenty of ppl who have no titles who accomplish so much. There are plenty with titles that accomplish very much also. There are those who are tulkus without titles that accomplish many things. There are tulkus with titles who also do.
The point is whether they have titles or not, THERE ARE TULKUS. The issue is not their titles, the issue is there are tulkus and they are real. They are real not based on your belief. They are real based on their sincere generation to bring benefit to others through many lifetimes of mind cultivation.

Since we all accept reincarnation. We accept attainments, Why not reincarnation with attainments? Certainly attainments do not disappear with a change of a body when we reincarnate. So therefore tulkus do exist. Hungry ghosts exists. The hells exist. Life on other planets exist. Gods exists. Demi-gods exist. Bodhisattvas exists. Not everything needs to be measurable by our extremely limited minds for its existence. Their existence does not depend on our recognition or belief. But they exist and do not need to function in the way that we deem fit.

The secret to discovery of anything is accepting the way they might exist not the way we think some phenomena should or should not exist. 

I like this very much "Not everything needs to be measurable by our extremely limited minds for its existence. Their existence does not depend on our recognition or belief. But they exist and do not need to function in the way that we deem fit. "

Thank you - i'm gonna post this on my facebook... great point to ponder, Thai Monk! cheers!

[Zach]

There is a problem that has already been forseen.
Tulkus regardless of how high the incarnation must be able to relate with the auidence they are ment to be teaching, Ven Geshe kelsang gyatso with permission for The great Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang formatted the Dharma in a more accessable way for the western auidence and I think so far it is doing very well, One can have all the Geshe Degrees from all the colleges in india one wants however the problem remains that because of the giant culture differences the teachings will have to be adapted and if Dharma is to flourish in the west for general newbies, centres and Masters who are heavily Tibetan oriented will do less well then those who present themselves as more open and in touch with western reality.

Now The Ven Trijang Chocktrul rinpoches disrobing may not be a bad thing, From history we know that the robes make no differences to the accomplishments, There have been many great Ngkapa masters and its very possible that the west will be more suited to these masters who are not seen as to venerable to get their hands dirty or as to venerable to relate with the students.

[LosangKhyentse]

How a genuine Tulku will do his beneficial works is up to the Tulku. Relating to the audience or not is our perspective. The Tulku does not need to fit into our perspective on how he relates.  The Tulku does not need to fit into our mold, expectations and realities. They operate from a different reality. As the saying goes, what's good for one maybe poison for another.

The Tulku system has produced many great illustrious teachers/examples. The Tulku system is alive and well. The Tulku system is very necessary for the period after Dalai Lama's demise (sorry). It is the great Tulkus within the Gelug School that will stand up with their well known reincarnated names that will speak up for Dorje Shugden.

Any great teacher alive today or recently will attribute their learning, transmissions and teachings to some great Tulku within the masters they have studied under. 

Examples:

Zong Rinpoche to Trijang Rinpoche.
Trijang Rinpoche to Pabongka Rinpoche.
Dalai Lama to Trijang and Ling Rinpoches.
The current oracle Tenzin Choepel (Indianapolis, USA) to Zong Rinpoche.
Dagom Rinpoche to Trijang Rinpoche.
Geshe Ngawang Dhargye, Geshe Rabten, Geshe Zopa, Lama Zopa, Lama Yeshe, etc etc all to Trijang Rinpoche.
Pabongka Rinpoche to Dakpo Rinpoche.
Geshe Tendar to Zong Rinpoche.
Lati Rinpoche to Trijang Rinpoche.
Drayab Loden Sherab (Germany) to Trijang Rinpoche.
Gelek Rinpoche to Trijang and Ling Rinpoche.
Geshe Lobsang Tharchin to Trijang Rinpoche.
Gaden Trisur Lungrik Namgyal to Trijang Rinpoche
Denma Gonsa Rinpoche to Trijang Rinpoche.
Domo Geshe Rinpoche to Trijang Rinpoche.
Ling Rinpoche to Pabongka Rinpoche
Geshe Kelsang to Trijang Rinpoche.


The above is just to name a few.
Look at the Great Masters Section of this Website, 90% are Tulkus who have upheld or upholding the Dorje Shugden lineage. Take a look: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=37

Tulkus are indeed important. Are relevant and the system is fine. We need to stop judging, constricting and making rules for how a Tulku must behave according to our very limited methods/ways. After all most of us are just laypeople who find it hard to even hold on to the basic 5 precepts.

TK

[VS]

The Ven Trijang Chocktrul rinpoches disrobing may be more suitable for today's crowd and may even spread the dharma further. I like what TK said

'How a genuine Tulku will do his beneficial works is up to the Tulku. Relating to the audience or not is our perspective. The Tulku does not need to fit into our perspective on how he relates.  The Tulku does not need to fit into our mold, expectations and realities. They operate from a different reality. As the saying goes, what's good for one maybe poison for another. '

i have a question though. Is it possible that a high reincarnated Tulkus can go 'off course' due to Their past negative karma ripening? Can't this be controlled as Tulkus are known to be able to control Their birth & death? If They choose to come back to benefit others, why some turn their back to dharma or 'give up' in the end?

Like what Dharma Defender wrote 'as was the case for Lama Osel', it was the good monastic education that drove them over the edge'. Could this be true?

Or could there be other reasons?

[thaimonk]

The Ven Trijang Chocktrul rinpoches disrobing may be more suitable for today's crowd and may even spread the dharma further. I like what TK said

'How a genuine Tulku will do his beneficial works is up to the Tulku. Relating to the audience or not is our perspective. The Tulku does not need to fit into our perspective on how he relates.  The Tulku does not need to fit into our mold, expectations and realities. They operate from a different reality. As the saying goes, what's good for one maybe poison for another. '

i have a question though. Is it possible that a high reincarnated Tulkus can go 'off course' due to Their past negative karma ripening? Can't this be controlled as Tulkus are known to be able to control Their birth & death? If They choose to come back to benefit others, why some turn their back to dharma or 'give up' in the end?

Like what Dharma Defender wrote 'as was the case for Lama Osel', it was the good monastic education that drove them over the edge'. Could this be true?

Or could there be other reasons?

High reincarnated tulkus cannot go off course. It just appears off course. It appears to us off course, because we are the ones actually off course. So what is right will appear wrong.

Lama Osel is a tulku but not considered a high tulku outwardly.

[DharmaDefender]

The Ven Trijang Chocktrul rinpoches disrobing may be more suitable for today's crowd and may even spread the dharma further. I like what TK said

'How a genuine Tulku will do his beneficial works is up to the Tulku. Relating to the audience or not is our perspective. The Tulku does not need to fit into our perspective on how he relates.  The Tulku does not need to fit into our mold, expectations and realities. They operate from a different reality. As the saying goes, what's good for one maybe poison for another. '

i have a question though. Is it possible that a high reincarnated Tulkus can go 'off course' due to Their past negative karma ripening? Can't this be controlled as Tulkus are known to be able to control Their birth & death? If They choose to come back to benefit others, why some turn their back to dharma or 'give up' in the end?

Like what Dharma Defender wrote 'as was the case for Lama Osel', it was the good monastic education that drove them over the edge'. Could this be true?

Or could there be other reasons?

High reincarnated tulkus cannot go off course. It just appears off course. It appears to us off course, because we are the ones actually off course. So what is right will appear wrong.

Lama Osel is a tulku but not considered a high tulku outwardly.

Oy vey VS, I didn't say that, it's an amalgamation of two people's posts! Heh

Lineageholder, in consideration of thaimonk's response, I don't think it was actually the good monastic education that drove Lama Osel over the edge, though that may be what he expressed. (After all, if he'd said anything else, would it have made a difference to us? Whatever reasons he gives, fact of the matter is that he left. That and we've all got our minds made up about the reasons why he went)

In fact, if a tulku can control their rebirth, then why can't they control whether they are driven over the edge or not? That's comparatively easier than controlling where you're reborn.

So thaimonk I believe has a point there - tulkus like Lama Osel are in total control. It just appears off course to us, because we are the ones off course. (Like FPMT have gone off course breaking their samaya with Lama Yeshe's practices). The lama reflects the students and can only work according to the students' collective karma and merit.

[thaimonk]

Lama Osel going 'off course' is a very good lesson to FPMT and other organizations no matter how big and how powerful you think you are, DO NOT BREAK YOUR SAMAYA/COMMITMENTS.

You may have joined the politically 'correct' camp to further your centre's growth, but that is just temporary.

After Lama Zopa passes, who takes over? Who is being groomed? Nobody.

FPMT traded in Lama Osel/Lama Yeshe's and practice to be on the politically correct camp of Tibetan govt and that will be the beginning of the end and a slow demise. Sad . Wasted.