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General Buddhism => General Buddhism => Topic started by: DSFriend on October 31, 2010, 05:14:03 AM
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Tulku system has been in existence, supported and relied upon for hundreds of years. However, many nowadays question the validity/credibility of tulkus. Why so? Could it be due to our own strong delusion manifesting in doubts? Could people "misuse" tulkus for their own selfish gains thus, warranting for the abolishing of this system?
I for one believe strongly in tulkus, be it recognised or not they have been in existence since the days of Buddha Shakyamuni. It is these tulkus who embodies the teachings and so patiently and skillfully teach and show us how to practice the holy, unmistakable dharma.
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I believe in the tulku system and find them to be inspiring.
The fact that these highly attained beings can control their death and re-birth is most liberating.
Their existence and continuous return prove that reincarnation exists.
What's more, it proves that if we all can do our practice well and keep our vows and samayas well, we too can achieve the very same attainments.
I like the idea that with each succeeding lifetime, we can carry forward everything that we have learnt and our skills and knowledge will not be lost or wasted.
Above all, I really value the fact that I can meet my Guru again and again - life after life and continue where we have left off in each lifetime until I really become Enlightened.
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Same here I would rather meet my Guru in a form of qualified spiritual guide life after life till i reach enlightenment. As long as He/ She has the complete lineage teachings, I will seek out for HIm/Her.
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I can understand why people may have doubts in the system. The modern day mind is very skeptical, and want scientific proof for everything that they are presented. In a way, perhaps, it is good that people want to check things out and not accept things on blind faith. (There is a fine line between wanting to check things out and question for the purposes of learning, and wanting to question just for the sake of being argumentative, which can become very disrespectful)
This is also why the tulku system isn't something that is arbitrarily decided on but also follows a very systematic way of checking. Normally, a tulku is not identified just by one random person but undergoes a series of very stringent "tests", and his status is questioned, checked and ascertained by divination done only by the highest masters.
I think the surest sign of the fact that tulkus exist is by the actions of each lifetime itself. They don't need to be identified and recognised to continue doing great things in "this" life. Often, their actions eventually begin to match everything they were known to have accomplished in their previous lives and they continue to benefit others in everything that they do. Many tulkus, in fact, are so humble as to not even talk about the fact that they are tulkus. Often, they will deny remembering anything of their previous lives. Instead, they concentrate on the present life, they will often tell you that it is more important to focus on what they are doing right now. And sure enough, what they are doing right now mirrors (or exceeds) what they were doing in previous lives. To me this signals that, whether tulku or not, these are very great beings indeed.
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The tulku system has been established for centuries and still continues today to expedite the works of reincarnated High Masters. As far as I know, only one school does not recognise the tulku system, which is the NKT. Just because they don't recognise the tulku system doesn't mean the tulku system does not exist and is not authentic. So many High Lamas today are recognised tulkus and many young tulkus are recognised in monasteries today. If we do not think tulkus are real, then we are saying that HH Trijang Rinpoche, HH Pabongka Rinpoche, HH Zong Rinpoche and many more are not real tulkus?
Tulkus make perfect sense for the reasons outlined earlier - that their recognitions are made by several respected authorities and that they do manifest the qualities of their previous lives' attainments etc.
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I think the surest sign of the fact that tulkus exist is by the actions of each lifetime itself. They don't need to be identified and recognised to continue doing great things in "this" life. Often, their actions eventually begin to match everything they were known to have accomplished in their previous lives and they continue to benefit others in everything that they do. Many tulkus, in fact, are so humble as to not even talk about the fact that they are tulkus. Often, they will deny remembering anything of their previous lives. Instead, they concentrate on the present life, they will often tell you that it is more important to focus on what they are doing right now. And sure enough, what they are doing right now mirrors (or exceeds) what they were doing in previous lives. To me this signals that, whether tulku or not, these are very great beings indeed.
That is the most important truth in my mind. Apart from all the dough ball divinations, tests with personal items from past lives and official recognitions, I believe the reason the tulku system has stood the test of time is because people are able to witness for themselves how many tulkus continue the works of their previous lives. The most highly attained tulkus do not need a recognition or title for their great deeds to continue, they naturally continue doing what they came here to do, which is to benefit others and to plant seeds of dharma in our minds. The incarnation of Changka Rolpai Dorje is a case in point.
Of course there are also lower level tulkus whose behaviours may be aberrations due to circumstances of time and place, but the larger proportion of beneficial tulkus proves there is merit in the tulku system. After all the system has withstood the test of time for hundreds of years in Tibet. Only now, when Tibetan Buddhism is exported over here in the West does it go under scrutiny again.
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With so many skeptical mind sets,
I think it is a great blessing that we can still witness the Tulku system, and this also gives people a chance to believe in reincarnation and the power of the mind.
The Tulku system reinforces our understanding, the authenticity of teachings being passed down in an unbroken lineage and most importantly it is a proof that the mind continues.
Yes I too support the Tulku system.
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It gives a lot of hope that we are not going to be left behind and that we can all be saved from this samsaric cycle.
I think it is a living testament that attainments are real and can be accumulated or deepened with each lifetime.
Just one Tulku's existence and life-story are enough to conduct a wealth of teachings to any Dharma practitioner.
And much thanks to the website for bringing us the first ever English translated bio of HH Trijang Rinpoche.
Trijang Rinpoche's life story teaches us so much - be it about how a Guru or lama should be taken care of, how much challenges are faced by each Lama and yet they can endure through it all.
Most of all, I find it incredibly inspiring that one Lama can sustain and propagate an entire lineage.
The destruction of a place or country is not important. The most important factor here is the Lama.
Hence, all we need is a few good Tulkus, Gurus and Lamas - and the whole world can literally be saved.
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The tulku system has been established for centuries and still continues today to expedite the works of reincarnated High Masters. As far as I know, only one school does not recognise the tulku system, which is the NKT. Just because they don't recognise the tulku system doesn't mean the tulku system does not exist and is not authentic.
Dear WB,
Since breaking away from Tibetan Buddhism under TGIE, effectively NKT is operating without lineage and tradition. Without this support system , and lacking high masters within their organisation to carry on this tulku system, there is always the risk of abuse. Perhaps Geshe Kelsang recognised this danger and did not encourage this tradition within NKT not because he did not believe in it.
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Dear WB,
Since breaking away from Tibetan Buddhism under TGIE, effectively NKT is operating without lineage and tradition. Without this support system , and lacking high masters within their organisation to carry on this tulku system, there is always the risk of abuse. Perhaps Geshe Kelsang recognised this danger and did not encourage this tradition within NKT not because he did not believe in it.
That sounds like a possibility. Having said that, it is only something NKT students can verify and clarify.
There is always risk of abuse in every system - not just religion. But just because there is risk does not mean we have to stop. The benefits far out-weigh the risks. That would be more of what I am concerned about - how will it benefit people and how many people can we help.
I am sure Geshe Kelsang Gyatso knows what is best for his students as HE KNOWS THEIR MINDS. Hence, the Guru will design and craft what is best suited for his students.
Other Gurus will set different systems and may do things differently, there is no wrong or right. Just different methods for different folks. At least, every one of us is getting help and is benefiting.
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Dear WB,
Since breaking away from Tibetan Buddhism under TGIE, effectively NKT is operating without lineage and tradition. Without this support system , and lacking high masters within their organisation to carry on this tulku system, there is always the risk of abuse. Perhaps Geshe Kelsang recognised this danger and did not encourage this tradition within NKT not because he did not believe in it.
I do respect what NKT is doing, how this organisation has spread the buddha dharma throughout the world. I am aware of how NKT broke off from main stream Gelug lineage...but i do not fully understand how this works. Doesn't all the blessings come from the lineage masters who passes on the teachings,...thus, the believe in each and every master and their incarnations?
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I just watched a documentary on tele yesterday about tulkus in Bhutan - how odd that I happen to stumble on this forum thread today!
It was really eye-opening to watch the documentary. I. for one. believe in the existence of tulkus. However, watching the documentary I could see why people are losing faith. According to the documentary, the government in Bhutan have officially taken over the recognition of tulkus. People have placed MORE trust in a political body than in a religious one. Really degenerate times...
In many Bhutanese families, if their child were to display certain special qualities, their parents would immediately push their very hardest to make them be recognized as a tulku in the monasteries. Why? Because of the assets and status that they will attain if their son does get recognized as one.
Since the habit is such, many Bhutanese have inter-family disputes, "my son is the real reincarnation of xxx tulku"..."no, my son is the real incarnation, yours is a fake".
The general public don't have faith in whoever is sitting on the throne unless it's government approved...!! How terrible is that!!
The media doesn't help either. How they presented the documentary didn't present it in the way that made the tulku system or the existence of tulkus sound genuine at all.
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Despite the fact that the Tulku System is getting to be more and more 'political', it still is a system that many Dharma practitioners especially Mahayana and Vajrayana practitioners will continue to believe in.
For one thing, we believe that Bodhisattvas have made vows to return again and again until all beings attain Liberation and Enlightenment .It is by returning as incarnate Lamas that they can best teach the Dharma and guide beings on the Path to Liberation and Enlightenment. Hence they will reincarnate again and again. For them to be authenticated as incarnations of these Holy Beings, the Tulku System needs to be continued.
The recent enthronement of the third incarnation of Domo Geshe Rinpoche is a fine example of why this system has to stay. This third incarnation was recognized and confirmed by Dharmapala Dorje Shugden, after a painstaking process of extensive prayers and rituals to Dorje Shugden and divination by the oracle of Dharmapala Dorje Shugden, all of which was conducted by Kyabje Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche. This young incarnation and his Ladrang are now in Shar Gaden. He will be trained and educated under the watchful eye of his mentor, Kyabje Trijang Choktrul. In time, the spiritual world will see this incarnation assume the greatness of the first most illustrious attained and compassionate Dharma master Domo Geshe Rinpoche. Thus does a Bodhisattva return again and again to spread the Dharma and benefit all beings.
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In many Bhutanese families, if their child were to display certain special qualities, their parents would immediately push their very hardest to make them be recognized as a tulku in the monasteries. Why? Because of the assets and status that they will attain if their son does get recognized as one.
Since the habit is such, many Bhutanese have inter-family disputes, "my son is the real reincarnation of xxx tulku"..."no, my son is the real incarnation, yours is a fake".
The general public don't have faith in whoever is sitting on the throne unless it's government approved...!! How terrible is that!!
Politics and religion has been fused together in Bhutan for a very long time now. I suppose it's only natural that after so long, that the people see the government as the ultimate spiritual authority as well.
Which is best? A nation without a mass consciousness in Buddhism or a nation ruled by Buddhist authorities.
Can a nation be ruled by the Dharma completely? I doubt. On the fact that even during Buddha's time, not all of those who heard the Dharma became Buddhist.
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Dear DSFriend,
I think I prefer a nation ruled by Buddhist authorities because open Buddhist practice would be encouraged like temples and the Sangha. In nations where Buddhism is not common, it is very hard to practice and temples are few and far in between. Even being a monk or a nun in such a country would be so hard and people would just see you in a strange way or would even find it difficult to accept.
Back to the Tulku system... Tulku is a Tibetan term that literally means 'Emanation Body', which is one of the 3 bodies of a fully enlightened Buddha. This is mentioned in the Buddhist scriptures but the Tibetans brought it one step further by institutionalizing the recognition of such beings. However, not all Tulkus are highly evolved spiritually. These are the Tulkus who spend a few lifetimes in practice and their behaviour can sometimes be wayward if not taught and guided early on. Hence, the monastery search for Tulkus as soon as they are born so they can be trained up. On the other hand, Tulkus that are highly evolved do not need to be trained, they will find their own way to benefit others.
The first official Tulku is Karmapa Lama and he apparently started this institution by prophesying his future incarnations. However, not all Tulku leave behind such traces. The most famous Tulku today of course is the Dalai Lama.
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Dear DSFriend,
I think I prefer a nation ruled by Buddhist authorities because open Buddhist practice would be encouraged like temples and the Sangha. In nations where Buddhism is not common, it is very hard to practice and temples are few and far in between. Even being a monk or a nun in such a country would be so hard and people would just see you in a strange way or would even find it difficult to accept.
Back to the Tulku system... Tulku is a Tibetan term that literally means 'Emanation Body', which is one of the 3 bodies of a fully enlightened Buddha. This is mentioned in the Buddhist scriptures but the Tibetans brought it one step further by institutionalizing the recognition of such beings. However, not all Tulkus are highly evolved spiritually. These are the Tulkus who spend a few lifetimes in practice and their behaviour can sometimes be wayward if not taught and guided early on. Hence, the monastery search for Tulkus as soon as they are born so they can be trained up. On the other hand, Tulkus that are highly evolved do not need to be trained, they will find their own way to benefit others.
The first official Tulku is Karmapa Lama and he apparently started this institution by prophesying his future incarnations. However, not all Tulku leave behind such traces. The most famous Tulku today of course is the Dalai Lama.
How high in your practice do you have to be to start reincarnating back as a tulku?
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Dear DSFriend,
I think I prefer a nation ruled by Buddhist authorities because open Buddhist practice would be encouraged like temples and the Sangha. In nations where Buddhism is not common, it is very hard to practice and temples are few and far in between. Even being a monk or a nun in such a country would be so hard and people would just see you in a strange way or would even find it difficult to accept.
Back to the Tulku system... Tulku is a Tibetan term that literally means 'Emanation Body', which is one of the 3 bodies of a fully enlightened Buddha. This is mentioned in the Buddhist scriptures but the Tibetans brought it one step further by institutionalizing the recognition of such beings. However, not all Tulkus are highly evolved spiritually. These are the Tulkus who spend a few lifetimes in practice and their behaviour can sometimes be wayward if not taught and guided early on. Hence, the monastery search for Tulkus as soon as they are born so they can be trained up. On the other hand, Tulkus that are highly evolved do not need to be trained, they will find their own way to benefit others.
The first official Tulku is Karmapa Lama and he apparently started this institution by prophesying his future incarnations. However, not all Tulku leave behind such traces. The most famous Tulku today of course is the Dalai Lama.
How high in your practice do you have to be to start reincarnating back as a tulku?
Dear Jessica,
All beings in Samsara reincarnate but unlike the Tulkus who have full control of where they take rebirth, most beings are thrown by their karma to an uncertain rebirth. In the monastery, Tulkus are usually recognised if a particular teacher had been beneficial had passed away and have not had an incarnation line. Usually, the students of the teacher will seek his incarnation through traditional means. Another way is if one had held the office of an Abbot or an even higher office within the monastic institution (ie Shartse or Jangtse Choje or even Gaden Tri Rinpoche). However, there are many practitioners in their previous lives that held their vows sincerely, studied and meditated so they have reincarnated near the Dharma at a very young age. They retain Dharma knowledge easily and they seem to continue where they have left off. They don't have control of where they take rebirth but their sincere practice that is coupled with their aspirations propel them to a favorable rebirth. I think this is what most of us can hope to achieve and Dorje Shugden's practice is particularly supreme if we sincerely rely on him as one with our Lama, he can take us to a good rebirth. I think, I have answered your question in a roundabout fashion...
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Yeah, you have actually! Thanks :) Hope you don't mind, but I'm putting this up on my Facebook to share with others!
I have also heard about tulku syndrome, where apparently if a young tulku is not nurtured up in a 'proper' fashion - he/she can go a little wayward. Is this true? A little dangerous it is then - to practice so hard in this life, enter your next life with the possibility of being something great - but without the right conditions, you go completely off!
Karma is really, really complex. If only it was as easy as e=mc²!
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Yeah, you have actually! Thanks :) Hope you don't mind, but I'm putting this up on my Facebook to share with others!
I have also heard about tulku syndrome, where apparently if a young tulku is not nurtured up in a 'proper' fashion - he/she can go a little wayward. Is this true? A little dangerous it is then - to practice so hard in this life, enter your next life with the possibility of being something great - but without the right conditions, you go completely off!
Karma is really, really complex. If only it was as easy as e=mc²!
Dear jessicajameson
I have the similar question regarding tulku syndrome... I haven't quite found an answer to understand this phenomena.
Logically, wouldn't a being who have practiced, and gotten some attainments in a previous life/lives to be more stable in the next life compared to someone who hasn't really done so but took on another rebirth as a human being purely by the force of karma.
It is said that we all have had countless lifetimes, with countless karmic seeds and imprints which will open when the conditions are right. With this, wouldn't someone who have practiced have a higher chance of continuing on the path? With the absence or lack of early, proper nurturing, what is it that triggers off the syndrome for the tulku to be wayward...
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I think Tulkus that go wayward are necessarily unattained Tulkus that have been recognized. This is because their practice have been a relatively short several lifetimes. On the other hand, high-attained Tulkus would go through whatever is necessary to practice the Dharma and benefit others. In other words, they will find their own way towards the Dharma, no matter the obstacles. Their Dharma imprints go much further and go back many incarnations.
I think it is necessary to practice the Dharma and understand and realise it deeply because it will affect our immediate next incarnations. Purifying our mind today and gaining realisations will be brought to our next life. Actually, how sincere we practice the Dharma today will determine how soon and how deep we practice the Dharma in our next life.
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Thank you Big Uncle for sharing your answers.
Lately, with the talk about Dalai Lama going to retire etc (and in the future of his parinirvana :( ), I wonder how much faith people will have in the Tulku system in the near future.
Currently, there are already dispute about the recognition of "real" Tulkus, and some of them involved:
a) those recognised by the Dalai Lama
b) those who are NOT recognised by the Dalai Lama
Is it necessary for a Tulku to be recognised by the Dalai Lama? Is that based on Dalai Lama as the head of state, or Dalai Lama as a spiritual head, or Dalai Lama because he is a religious authority (high lama)?
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Thank you Big Uncle for sharing your answers.
Lately, with the talk about Dalai Lama going to retire etc (and in the future of his parinirvana :( ), I wonder how much faith people will have in the Tulku system in the near future.
Currently, there are already dispute about the recognition of "real" Tulkus, and some of them involved:
a) those recognised by the Dalai Lama
b) those who are NOT recognised by the Dalai Lama
Is it necessary for a Tulku to be recognised by the Dalai Lama? Is that based on Dalai Lama as the head of state, or Dalai Lama as a spiritual head, or Dalai Lama because he is a religious authority (high lama)?
Oh, I have no worries about people having faith in the Tulkus because ultimately, it is the real Tulkus that will manifest their awakened activities for the benefit of sentient beings. What I mean is that the results of their actions will make people have faith in them. Some Tulkus may even manifest 'waywardness' like (with due respect) the Dalai Lama with this Dorje Shugden ban and Lama Osel disrobing and living away from his students. But I think, they have a higher reason and that things will unravel and it will benefit many! In fact, previous Dalai Lamas have been controversial before but the results of what they did brought tremendous waves of benefits. So don't be too quick to jump to conclusions...
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Good point you made Big Uncle. And I agree that the previous Dalai Lamas manifests very controversial actions....many of which would not have been accepted today I'd think.
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Just to share some interesting extracts I read from The Dance of 17 Lives: The Incredible True Story of Tibet's 17th Karmapa (By Mick Brown)
1. While theoretically the designation tulku would suggest that someone had been recognised as the direct incarnation of a specific person, in fact this description applied only to a relatively small number of high incarnates, those who were acknowledged to have attained the highest bhumis, or stages of awakening…
2. In yet other cases, a child who was discerned to have particularly promising qualities might be named as a tulku simply to fulfil a certain religious or social position – to give them a role to live up to, as it were...
3. The tulku system was highly elitist. The recognition procedure was essentially a secret one, the system trusting to the wisdom and judgement of the lamas who were making the choice. Yet the validity of the newly recognised incarnate ultimately depended on public approval. Rumours would quickly spread about the signs and wonders that had attended the birth of a special child, the reputation of the family as spiritual practitioners, and also of the lama who had made the recognistion. And a tulku’s authority ultimately depended on his spiritual practice.
4. Someone who failed to fulfil his potential, and who showed himself to be greedy, self-serving, venal or corrupt would quickly lose his standing. Once discovered, the young tulku would usually be given up by his family to the care of the monastery to which, it was believed, he had originally belonged. In a culture in which tulkus were venerated above all others, to have one’s son so recognised was regarded as a great honour, and it was rare for a family to raise any objections to their child being taken from them…
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The Tulku (sprul sku) system has been an extremely important aspect of Tibetan society and Tibetan religious life for many centuries, and continues to this day to capture the imagination of people around the world. It is unique to Tibet, and to those cultures whose development has been influenced by Tibetan Buddhism, including Mongolia and the Himalayan states. While the notion of rebirth or reincarnation is found throughout the Buddhist world, nowhere else do we find this particular practice—of identifying young children as the rebirths of religious teachers and leaders who have recently passed away, and then installing them in their place—developed as thoroughly and as systematically as in Tibet.
The symposium is intended to provide an opportunity for in-depth exploration and discussion of the Tulku system, with the three tulkus attending offering an insider’s perspective on this extraordinary historical phenomenon. While the Tulku system can be considered from any number of aspects—historical, social, religious, political, psychological, educational, and so on—each participant will be addressing those features that he considers most important and interesting, while reflecting on his own experience.
The three Tulkus attending will first speak for 20-30 minutes each on their own experience of being a tulku and/or their current thinking about the Tulku System, its past, and the challenges which now face it. After a short break we will then move to a roundtable discussion of the issues, moderated by Professor Donald Lopez (University of Michigan) and bringing in Professor Paul Harrison and Mr Tenzin Tethong (Stanford University). There will be some time for the audience to ask questions at the end.
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Tulku or nirmanakaya is the form body (rupakaya) of the Buddha, the form that can be seen by ordinary beings. It is also refered to as the transformation or physical body of the Buddha that appears in the human realm in order to benefit sentient beings.
In Tibet, there are three systems or types of lineage through which the authority or charisma are transmitted from a former to the present holder. These are: the traditional lineage, the biological lineage and the lineage of reincarnation. The tulku system belongs to the third lineage.
In the traditional system, the lineage is based on transmittance of the teaching from master to selected disciple. This is the intellectual lineage. In the biological lineage, the charisma is passed from generation to generation in a meritorious family whose members had obtained, through special sutras, a unique link to enlightenment. The third and most important lineage is derived from the basic Buddhist idea of rebirth - the concept of the reincarnation of the same being in a new body, discovered in a child born at the right time and recognized by leading lamas or Dharma Protectors through oracles. This system is based on the concept of bodhisattvas, enlightened beings who voluntarily take rebirth out of compassion in order to help sentient beings to be liberated from suffering and cyclic existence.
Can the tulku system survive in the modern world? One still has to rely on traditional methods to recognize a tulku. I think it will last as long as there are great enlightened masters and authentic oracles who, with their omniscient powers, can recognize a real reincarnation. Personally, I hope it will continue because we need the enlightened beings to assist us in our journey to enlightenment.
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Can the tulku system survive in the modern world? One still has to rely on traditional methods to recognize a tulku. I think it will last as long as there are great enlightened masters and authentic oracles who, with their omniscient powers, can recognize a real reincarnation. Personally, I hope it will continue because we need the enlightened beings to assist us in our journey to enlightenment.
I think sure it can and I think it is good to preserved such tradition because it does help and gives us proof that there are attained beings who can control their death and rebirth and come back to benefit others. It gives us some kind of conviction and hope. It is proof of the authenticity of reincarnation. How they do it is not our problem or we as lay people to judge unless we're attained also.
They could even be like Mahasiddhas that manifest in unconventional ways, like a drunken man, a beggar like Naropa and Tilopa's story but they are actually enlightened beings!
I especially love the stories highlighted here in this website on Enlightened masters http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?cat=1024 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?cat=1024)
Hence I think yea... the Tulku system is relevant and as we degenerate more and more, this would help people gain some confidence, but it should not be the main focus when one seeks a spiritual guide.
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I watched this interesting short video TULKU - official trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un2bk-ddtf8#ws) of how Tulkus are being recognized in the west and how many of them are enthroned but they rather lead a secular life. 1 of them is Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche's son. They actually made a movie out of it - TULKU. But this does not mean that they are not benefitting nor taking advantages of their enthronement. Even way back during the 5th Dalai Lama's time there was a controversy.
The recognition of tulkus has sometimes involved ambiguity as well as controversy. According to Tibetan historian Samten Gyaltsen Karmay, Lobsang Gyatso, the 5th Dalai Lama, wrote in his autobiography:
The official Tsawa Kachu of the Ganden Palace showed me statues and rosaries (that belonged to the Fourth Dalai Lama and other lamas), but I was unable to distinguish between them! When he left the room I heard him tell the people outside that I had successfully passed the tests. Later, when he became my tutor, he would often admonish me and say: "You must work hard, since you were unable to recognize the objects!"
In the 2009 documentary film Tulku, Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche argues against the institutionalized Tulku system stating,
And now, I personally think that to hold that culture, institutionalized Tulku. That culture is dying; it’s not going to work anymore. And even if it… And if it doesn’t work, I think it’s almost for the better because this tulku, it’s going to… If the Tibetans are not careful, this Tulku system is going to ruin Buddhism. At the end of the day Buddhism is more important [than] Tulku system, who cares about Tulku... [and] what happens to them.
The American film actor Steven Seagal, while already an adult, was recognized by Penor Rinpoche, the head of the Nyingma school, as the reincarnation of a 17th century tertön from eastern Tibet, Chungdrag Dorje. Penor Rinpoche notes that "such recognition does not mean that one is already a realized teacher"; Seagal has not been enthroned and has not undergone the extensive program of training and study that is customary for a tulku.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulku (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulku)
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I am sorry, I watched the Tulku movie as well and when the credits rolled, I was left with more doubts in Tulkus than before I watched the movie. There are a lot of Tulkus raised in the west featured in the movie and I just don't see how they are manifesting their previous lives work.
It is quite obvious that they are not of the highest calibre because none of them are resuming their previous lives' work. One of the Tulkus went to the extent of saying that he is not Buddhist and he is only in the monastery to give blessings to the monks because it make them happy. How disgusting! Even the main Tulku featured (who is also the director) kept asking questions and never really having any solid answers.
The key moment in the movie is when the director met Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche who gave a talk to the camera and spoke about the destruction of Buddhism at the hands of Tulkus. If we are looking at the few Tulkus featured, I think Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche is right. It is really obvious that these Tulkus lack someone to guide them and some to put them under lots of retreats to reawaken memories and virtuous seeds from previous lives.
There is not a single Gelug tulku featured but we have our fair share of wayward western Tulkus as well. However, for the Gelug tradition, it is a tradition beset with broken samayas due to the ban and its effects. Many students have abandoned practices that are at the core of the tradition. Hence, contributing reasons are many but the main reasons are guidance. We can't really judge Tulkus because they could be manifesting something to bring about a certain benefit later. But these are just my observations so far.
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I am sorry, I watched the Tulku movie as well and when the credits rolled, I was left with more doubts in Tulkus than before I watched the movie. There are a lot of Tulkus raised in the west featured in the movie and I just don't see how they are manifesting their previous lives work.
It is quite obvious that they are not of the highest calibre because none of them are resuming their previous lives' work. One of the Tulkus went to the extent of saying that he is not Buddhist and he is only in the monastery to give blessings to the monks because it make them happy. How disgusting! Even the main Tulku featured (who is also the director) kept asking questions and never really having any solid answers.
The key moment in the movie is when the director met Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche who gave a talk to the camera and spoke about the destruction of Buddhism at the hands of Tulkus. If we are looking at the few Tulkus featured, I think Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche is right. It is really obvious that these Tulkus lack someone to guide them and some to put them under lots of retreats to reawaken memories and virtuous seeds from previous lives.
There is not a single Gelug tulku featured but we have our fair share of wayward western Tulkus as well. However, for the Gelug tradition, it is a tradition beset with broken samayas due to the ban and its effects. Many students have abandoned practices that are at the core of the tradition. Hence, contributing reasons are many but the main reasons are guidance. We can't really judge Tulkus because they could be manifesting something to bring about a certain benefit later. But these are just my observations so far.
There are many different levels of tulkus. Some tulkus are high because they have the determination to do what they are supposed to do despite the problems and obstacles surmounting them, while some tulkus are recognized and enthroned but do nothing much to promote the Dharma or to relieve others of their suffering, or only do so at a very small scale.
I personally know a person who was actually recognized by the Dalai Lama himself, monks were sent from the monastery to invite him to return with robes that were blessed by the Dalai Lama himself but he turned it down. Instead, he is part of an environmental group in his country. I did ask him why did he turn it down, he said that he wished to benefit people other than giving them the Dharma but after a few exchanges, I realize that he was more attached to his current lifestyle of being a lay person and having 'freedom' to pursue certain pleasures that a monastic is not allowed to, as he shows very little Dharmic imprints. He was also jealous of someone else that was younger than him that was actually operating a center and said many nasty things about that person but with the expression of fake shock. That to me, made me realize that low level tulkus can easily degenerate to being just an ordinary person if not trained. I was actually quite disappointed that he said those things. For someone who was granted the HYT initiations and who can perform fire pujas and chod without having to go through the preliminaries to doing and saying things like these i was just very shocked. I stopped talking to him after that as I do not wish to associate myself with someone of this nature.
anyway, from what I have heard although I cannot confirm, degenerate tulkus are very dangerous to go near as their energy can easily bring us down as it is a huge culmination of broken samaya and deception. Can anyone confirm this?
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I was reading about HH Penor Rinpoche on the other board, and remember a relevant piece about Penor Rinpoche's statement about Steven Seagal. I feel it is very informative about the difference between recognising a Tulku and enthroning one, so I wish to share it here. I respect HH Penor Rinpoche more and more after hearing about his help to Shugden monks despite the Tibetan political situation. From his statement below, I also learnt quite a lot about the Tulku system, especially between recognition and enthronement.
Statement by H.H. Penor Rinpoche Regarding the Recognition of Steven Seagal as a Reincarnation of the Treasure Revealer Chungdrag Dorje of Palyul Monastery
In February of 1997 I recognized my student, Steven Seagal, as a reincarnation (tulku) of the treasure revealer Chungdrag Dorje. Since there has been some confusion and uncertainty as to what this means, I am writing to clarify this situation.
Traditionally a tulku is considered to be a reincarnation of a Buddhist master who, out of his or her compassion for the suffering of sentient beings, has vowed to take rebirth to help all beings attain enlightenment. To fulfill this aspiration, a tulku will generally need to go through the complete process of recognition, enthronement and training.
Formal recognition generally occurs soon after a tulku has been identified, but only after other important lineage masters have been consulted. The newly identified tulku does not take on any formal responsibilities at the time of recognition.
The next step of enthronement may or may not occur for a tulku, depending on the circumstances. Enthronement formally invests the tulku with the responsibility of furthering the activities associated with their particular tulku lineage. Thus, if there are specific teachings and practice traditions associated with their lineage, and if there are perhaps monks, nuns, monasteries, retreat centers, lay communities and so forth for which the tulku traditionally takes responsibility, then the tulku is formally vested with those responsibilities at the time of enthronement. In the event that an enthronement ceremony is conducted, it may take place soon after recognition or some years later. If the tulku is too young to assume their responsibilities upon enthronement, others may be entrusted to take on those responsibilities until the tulku is ready.
Finally, a tulku needs to complete a formal course of training which includes years of study and meditation. This training reawakens the tulku's powers of insight and compassion and develops their skillful means for helping others. It is only after such training that a tulku is ready to take on the role of a teacher.
In the case of Steven Seagal, he has been formally recognized as a tulku, but has not been officially enthroned. He has also not undergone the lengthy process of study and practice necessary to fully realize what I view as his potential for helping others. When I first met him, I felt he had the special qualities of a tulku within him. According to the Great Vehicle (Mahayana) of the Buddhist tradition, all beings have within them the potential for becoming Buddhas. With Steven Seagal I perceived this potential to be particularly strong as accords with being a tulku. In the past, whenever I have met someone that I feel is a tulku, I have always consulted with other masters of the Nyingma lineage such as Dudjom Rinpoche, Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche and other senior lineage holders. Similarly, after my experience of meeting Steven Seagal, I consulted with another important Nyingma master and with his concurrence, recognized Steven Seagal as a tulku.
With regard to the particular circumstances of Steven Seagal's recognition, while it is generally the case that tulkus are recognized young in life, this is not always so. For example, the great master Jamyang Khyentse Chökyi Lodrö remained unrecognized for many years while he was an ordained monk at Kathok Monastery. He was over 30 years old, perhaps 35, and had completed his monastic education when he was recognized and enthroned as the first reincarnation of Jamyang Khyentse Chökyi Wangpo. In his case, he had devoted his life to study and practice and was thus prepared for taking on the full responsibilities of being a tulku at the time of his recognition.
Prior to my recognition of Steven Seagal I myself recognized another tulku late in his life. Kalsang Yeshe Rinpoche, a monk originally from the Palyul branch monastery of Shibo in Tibet and later at Namdroling Monastery in India, was recognized and enthroned in 1983 at the age of 51. He too had spent his life studying Buddhism and meditating before he was recognized as a tulku. Because he had cultivated his potential through many years of diligent study and meditation, he was able to become a teacher and is currently the head of our Palyul Center in Singapore. So, in short, in the Tibetan tradition there is nothing unusual about recognizing a tulku late in their life. In fact, the recognition of a tulku who has been born in the West is especially likely to occur later in their lifetime because it will generally take much longer for all the conditions that are necessary for such a recognition to come together.
Steven Seagal has been recognized as a reincarnation of the 17th century hidden treasure revealer (tertön) Chungdrag Dorje (khyung brag rdo rje) of Palyul Monastery. Chungdrag Dorje founded a small monastery called Gegön Gompa near his native village of Phene in the Kutse area of Derge in Eastern Tibet. Though there are no monks there now, the small monastery building still exists and is well known in the area for its beautiful religious wall paintings.
As a tertön, Chungdrag Dorje rediscovered teachings and sacred objects hidden by Padmasambhava in the eighth century. Such treasures (terma) were concealed with the intention that they would be discovered and revealed at a later date when the circumstances were such that they would be of particular benefit to sentient beings. Texts of the teachings discovered by Chungdrag Dorje have apparently not survived the Chinese Cultural Revolution. Sacred objects discovered by Chungdrag Dorje include an unusually shaped bell, a phurba (ritual dagger), the syllable 'A' carved in stone and pigments used to create the sacred wall paintings in his monastery mentioned above. Several of these objects have been preserved and are still kept at Palyul Monastery today.
In the Nyingma tradition it is said that there are a hundred main treasure revealers and an even greater number of secondary treasure revealers. Among the latter it is not uncommon for the line of their teachings to eventually lapse. Though they were beneficial during the time they flourished, for various reasons some tertön teaching lineages have ceased. This would seem to be the case with Chungdrag Dorje.
Now with regard to Steven Seagal, he was born centuries after the death of Chungdrag Dorje. It is not uncommon for there to be a lengthy span of time between the death of a master and the appearance of his or her subsequent reincarnation. My own tulku lineage is an example of this. There was a 130 years hiatus between the death of the First Pema Norbu in 1757 and the birth of the Second Pema Norbu in 1887. This is common in all the traditions of Tibetan Buddhism. As for how these gaps come about, while tulkus are understood to have vowed to be continually reborn to help beings, it is not necessary for them to take rebirth in a continuous sequence of lives in this world. It is believed that they can be reborn in other world systems where they continue their compassionate activities, returning only later to this world system. This is how such lapses in tulku lineages are understood in Tibet.
As for Steven Seagal's movie career, my concern is with the qualities I experienced within him which relate to his potential for benefiting others and not with the conventional details of his life which are wholly secondary. Some people think that because Steven Seagal is always acting in violent movies, how can he be a true Buddhist? Such movies are for temporary entertainment and do not relate to what is real and important. It is the view of the Great Vehicle of Buddhism that compassionate beings take rebirth in all walks of life to help others. Any life condition can be used to serve beings and thus, from this point of view, it is possible to be both a popular movie star and a tulku. There is no inherent contradiction in this possibility.
As the head of the Palyul lineage of the Nyingma School and more recently as the Head of the Nyingma tradition of Tibetan Buddhism, I have had the responsibility of recognizing numerous tulkus. The first time I recognized a tulku, I was ten years old. This tulku was the incarnation of the great Khenpo Ngaga. He is still living in Eastern Tibet and continues to strive, to this day, to promote the welfare of others. Since that time until now I have recognized over one hundred tulkus. In addition I have overseen the training and enthronement of over thirty khenpos (learned scholars) and I am responsible for the welfare of the many thousands of monks belonging to the Palyul tradition. My concern in seeking to nurture these tulkus, khenpos, monks, as well as sincere lay people, has been to benefit all sentient beings. It is out of this intention that I have recognized tulkus in the past and will continue to recognize them in the future as appropriate.
In the case of my student Steven Seagal, I initiated the decision to recognize him as a tulku based on my own feelings about him. Neither I nor any of my monasteries have received or sought any sort of substantial donation from him. What is important to me are the qualities I have seen in my student. For this reason I feel confident that recognizing him as a tulku will be of benefit to others as well as to the Buddha dharma.
Whenever there is a new incarnation born or recognized, I personally feel very happy because it is like you have one more brother or sister. I take delight in such occasions as they seek to further compassionate activity for others. Being recognized as a tulku is an acknowledgment of one's potential to help others. Such recognition does not mean that one is already a realized teacher. The degree to which tulkus have been able to actualize and utilize their potential depends upon how they have been able to use their past circumstances and how they currently use their present circumstances to develop their potential. Each tulku must work to develop themselves to the best of their ability. The essential point is that a tulku should strive to help others in whatever life situation they find themselves. It is out of such an aspiration to help all sentient beings that I have recognized many tulkus in my life and it is with this motivation that I recognized Steven Seagal as a tulku. If all beings seek to have this motivation, what need will there be for controversies and confusion over the motivations of others?
From: http://www.palyul.org/docs/statement.html (http://www.palyul.org/docs/statement.html)
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Lately, I've been thinking a fair bit about this topic again. I'm still searching for answers regarding tulku syndrome and so far, I've settled with the logic that this wayward behaviour happened in a more drastic way compared to "non-tulkus" similar to when we engage in purification practices, how we experience negativities arising in our mind as it is in "induced to ripen". So in a way, these tulkus needed conducive environment at a young age as their good seeds and bad seeds are ready to ripen quickly and when not kept clean, the bad seeds ripens and manifests as wayward behaviors.
On the other hand, I think it's beneficial to NOT recognize the individual as a tulku if it these "low level" incarnations do not show befitting qualities. It only boost their egos if the motivation is not selflessly driven and it gives a bad name to tulkus in general. I suppose that's where the skillfulness of the lamas comes into play, to reveal or not to reveal such information.
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Recently I saw a documentary about Tulku system in Butan. Their government had just past a law requiring each Tulku to be recognized and 'approved' by a special council. The reason for this - too many Tulkus has been recognized by the normal procedures. And many people tried very hard to have their sons recognized as Tulku for financial gains and advancement in social status.
It is sad the Butan government had to resolve to this to make sure that the system of recognizing Tulkus are not
being abused and misused.
What else would people do to fulfill their selfishness and attachments ??
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Thank you Vajraprotector for sharing this article , it is very informative and interesting. I have read a long time ago, some where before that Steven Seagal was a Rinpoche , and i dont know if it was Penor Rinpoche who recognized him. I also watched the documentary about Bhutan's dilemma or controversy about there being too many families vying to have their individual sons recognized as Tulkus for various material gains.
It is sad to see how people of this day and age being blinded by the eight worldly concerns corrupting what has been a very sacred and sanctified tradition. As with everything else, it is not the religion , tradition or belief that is the problem but mankind.
The solution is very simple, stop glorifying the Tulkus. It is not what they have done before that matters , it is the present and future that we should be concerned with. Yes , it is indeed worthy of rejoicing that an "attained" being had made such compassionate decisions to return again to benefit us all, BUT this same being can whether through his own choosing or not decide NOT to continue, that is a real possibility ! So what is the big hoo haa ? Countless monks do " fall " to the lower realms due to transgressions of the laws of karma as stated in the Lamrin .
What we should take to heart is what His Holiness Penor Rinpoche has reminded us here , it is our motivation. This paragraph by His Holiness sums it up :
"Whenever there is a new incarnation born or recognized, I personally feel very happy because it is like you have one more brother or sister. I take delight in such occasions as they seek to further compassionate activity for others. Being recognized as a tulku is an acknowledgment of one's potential to help others. Such recognition does not mean that one is already a realized teacher. The degree to which tulkus have been able to actualize and utilize their potential depends upon how they have been able to use their past circumstances and how they currently use their present circumstances to develop their potential. Each tulku must work to develop themselves to the best of their ability. The essential point is that a tulku should strive to help others in whatever life situation they find themselves. It is out of such an aspiration to help all sentient beings that I have recognized many tulkus in my life and it is with this motivation that I recognized Steven Seagal as a tulku. If all beings seek to have this motivation, what need will there be for controversies and confusion over the motivations of others? "
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Can the tulku system survive in the modern world? One still has to rely on traditional methods to recognize a tulku. I think it will last as long as there are great enlightened masters and authentic oracles who, with their omniscient powers, can recognize a real reincarnation. Personally, I hope it will continue because we need the enlightened beings to assist us in our journey to enlightenment.
I think sure it can and I think it is good to preserved such tradition because it does help and gives us proof that there are attained beings who can control their death and rebirth and come back to benefit others. It gives us some kind of conviction and hope. It is proof of the authenticity of reincarnation. How they do it is not our problem or we as lay people to judge unless we're attained also.
They could even be like Mahasiddhas that manifest in unconventional ways, like a drunken man, a beggar like Naropa and Tilopa's story but they are actually enlightened beings!
I especially love the stories highlighted here in this website on Enlightened masters http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?cat=1024 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?cat=1024)
Hence I think yea... the Tulku system is relevant and as we degenerate more and more, this would help people gain some confidence, but it should not be the main focus when one seeks a spiritual guide.
[ I recently read this article below about Gomo Tulku who was recognised by HHDL at the age of three but at 23, he swapped his robes for the worldly trappings of hip-hop. Would you explain this to be also like what you wrote: "They could even be like Mahasiddhas that manifest in unconventional ways, like a drunken man, a beggar like Naropa and Tilopa's story but they are actually enlightened beings!"
Read More http://www.details.com/culture-trends/critical-eye/201208/leaving-om-new-buddhist-lifestyle#ixzz2C4l07FJv (http://www.details.com/culture-trends/critical-eye/201208/leaving-om-new-buddhist-lifestyle#ixzz2C4l07FJv)]
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Very interesting to read this article and understand the Tulku System. I like to think that the Tulku system is valid and that it gives us hope in the current previous life that there are incarnation of highly attained beings who can be our Guru and lead us on the path of spiritual success.
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Thanks all that I have more understanding on the tulku system especially the sharing from beggar. The tulku system is not superstitious or blind faith as it is following a very systematically way of checking and with facts and proves.
I can understand why people may have doubts in the system. The modern day mind is very skeptical, and want scientific proof for everything that they are presented. In a way, perhaps, it is good that people want to check things out and not accept things on blind faith. (There is a fine line between wanting to check things out and question for the purposes of learning, and wanting to question just for the sake of being argumentative, which can become very disrespectful)
This is also why the tulku system isn't something that is arbitrarily decided on but also follows a very systematic way of checking. Normally, a tulku is not identified just by one random person but undergoes a series of very stringent "tests", and his status is questioned, checked and ascertained by divination done only by the highest masters.
I think the surest sign of the fact that tulkus exist is by the actions of each lifetime itself. They don't need to be identified and recognised to continue doing great things in "this" life. Often, their actions eventually begin to match everything they were known to have accomplished in their previous lives and they continue to benefit others in everything that they do. Many tulkus, in fact, are so humble as to not even talk about the fact that they are tulkus. Often, they will deny remembering anything of their previous lives. Instead, they concentrate on the present life, they will often tell you that it is more important to focus on what they are doing right now. And sure enough, what they are doing right now mirrors (or exceeds) what they were doing in previous lives. To me this signals that, whether tulku or not, these are very great beings indeed.
For me, the tulku system has strengthened my faith on the enlightened Guru and lineage lamas as well as reincarnation. It is also showing me how inspiring and compassionate of Buddha that keep coming back to bring Dharma to others.