At Long Last,
A Definitive Source,
Can you Imagine the Direct Guidance and Clarity
We Will Receive From Lord Dorje Shugden
The Supreme Protector of Dharma
Our Supreme Defender of the Dharma
Our Champion Lord Dorje Shugden Has Arisen
We Rise With Him
Hold Onto Your Hats!
It is especially heart warming to hear that he is already performing great deeds and Dharma work even before "coming out" publicly
This is astounding and HUGE!
I feel extremely humbled by what is happening right now as these events begin to unfold. Just as the article says:
"His return will cause an explosion at the heart of the Tibetan Buddhist world, righting a great ‘wrong’ that was done hundreds of years ago.
His return marks the culmination of an orchestrated sequence of events which began over 600 years ago during the time of Dulzin.
His return heralds a new age of Buddhist renaissance, where Dorje Shugden will rise to the fore, unveiling his true nature as the greatest Dharma Protector for our time.
The final episode in this elaborate epic reveals how the highest Lamas have each played their part to propel Lama Tsongkhapa’s lineage to its highest peak."
"An explosion at the heart of the Tibetan Buddhist world" - that's right! The most stunning implication of this news is that NONE of what the Tibetan Government is saying about this supposedly "evil" spirit is at all true (as TK has already pointed out). This is what will shake the whole core of their foundation and, I imagine, be the biggest threat to all that they have "stood for" in recent years. Perhaps history seems to be repeating itself: the stance of the Dalai Lama wanes while the standing of the "rival" Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen begins to arise more powerful than ever. (The biggest irony is in the timing of this post!) It is especially heart warming to hear that he is already performing great deeds and Dharma work even before "coming out" publicly - this proves as ever the might of such enlightened beings and the fact that they will benefit the world no matter where they are or "who" they are. It is awesome to think that he is all among us now bringing waves of happiness to others - we could even be the recipients of this without knowing! Such news to rejoice in!
It certainly looks like there is some kind of big cosmic play going on, as in the last sentence above. If nothing else, the lineage and teachings just seem to be getting bigger, more widespread and drawing the attention of more and more people. And this, after all, is the point for all tulkus to come back to us.
I wonder: is His Holiness feeling threatened today? Or is he chuckling to himself, amused that his old friend is "back" and the final showdown of "elaborate epic" of Dharma is finally unfolding?
I was just wondering at the implication of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen alive today.
Once he is out in the public, can his name be put back as one of the lineage lamas? Because it surely shows that he didn't become an evil spirit which led to him being banned. It's mad that people aren't even allowed to mention his name. How Harry Potter. Maybe JK Rowling heard of this issue!
Anyway, if he didn't become an evil spirit, then can the ban on Dorje Shugden be reversed too?
This is new to me, despite all my research I have never seen a Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen reincarnation mentioned. In fact the Shugden historical accounts have used the lack of a reincarnation as a form of justification, that's how the 19th century author Tsunpa Mati justifies Dorje Shugden as being the reincarnation of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, which is quoted by Pabongkha Rinpoche.
There was a Zhide Nyungne Lama reincarnation that is said to be an emanation of Panchen Sonam Dragpa, but one of the later supposed reincarnations fell into disrepute when he and the Reting Rinpoche tried assassinating Taktra Rinpoche.
Technically there are many emanations possible, but as far as official recognitions go this is as much as I know, not to mention it is unclear if the Zhide Nyungne Lama reincarnation line was broken or not.
If illustrious lamas and the Dorje Shugden oracle has recognized this incarnation many decades ago before the controversy and ban, it is an incredible insight into the future. When problems like this would arise so to keep the incarnation's existence a secret. Also for making announcement of the incarnation when Dalai Lama is already 75 years old. I find it very skilfull.
Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen doesn't need the Tibetan Govt, Scholars, Monasteries, or us to confirm who he is. It seems he has been incarnating and helping all along. Great news! After all, what are the benefits and disbenefits to this? Surely the benefits outweigh the 'disbenefits' completely. It shows the lies spewed by the TGIE and further lies to cover themselves is being revealed surely and definitely. Too bad for TGIE now. The end is near for them, sorry to say. The beginning has begun for us.
I am actually quite underwhelmed. What proof will we get, what if the reincarnation is a fake ?
He could then potentially destroy the lineage from within. I remain cautious.
I am happy with any Lama/Teacher who spreads Je Tsongkhapa's tradition purely but I am
quite suspicious of all these tulkus etc.. Look how many tulkus have disrobed. Yes I don't know their intentions, they might be high bodhisattvas and benefit others, but it would be nice to see some examples of realized being staying in robes too.
Vajra
I am actually quite underwhelmed. What proof will we get, what if the reincarnation is a fake ?
He could then potentially destroy the lineage from within. I remain cautious.
I am happy with any Lama/Teacher who spreads Je Tsongkhapa's tradition purely but I am
quite suspicious of all these tulkus etc.. Look how many tulkus have disrobed. Yes I don't know their intentions, they might be high bodhisattvas and benefit others, but it would be nice to see some examples of realized being staying in robes too.
Vajra
Finally there is concrete evidence that all the accusation on Dorje Shugden being an evil spirit is false.
I did a quick google search and no where else can this info be found except whatever is extracted from this announcement.
This will be marked by the birth of Dorje Shugden as the definitive deity in Buddhism and the world. I'm gonna be part of this!
Oh Oh, what’s Dharamsala going to do now? .... I can’t wait for the response from TGIE on this news.
How auspicious we are living at this time!!
I just realized that the behaviour of a class of posters actually resembles a Turing Machine, not human beings, I therefore must point this out. For after all, haven't we all seen how there is a repetitious barrage of sameminded blabber, without there seemingly being any semblance of trying to discuss the issues.
The final episode in this elaborate epic reveals how the highest Lamas have each played their part to propel Lama Tsongkhapa’s lineage to its highest peak.
I did a quick google search and no where else can this info be found except whatever is extracted from this announcement.
How very surprising.
Be not as Doubting Thomas!
The Story is still being told children, Keep Quiet until it is finished
What confuses me is why people are so up in arms against the tulku system if, like tk has pointed out, the system has identified many great lamas. Again people are applying one view to the entire situation, saying their view is the right view (i.e. Geshe-la doesn't allow it in his organisation, therefore it is wrong for everyone to practise it).
Besides, if people are so against the tulku system, then how did DDG become Panchen Sonam Drakpa, to become TDG? If we should all be wary of the tulku system, then where did Dorje Shugden arise from, if not from the system of identifying tulkus?
H.O.A.X
QuoteThe advantage of the tulku system is that those who are identified as a tulku can get 'fast tracked' in their scholastic study so they can act from their full potential faster.
But is this alleged tulku still young? If not then there's no point of assuming this title at a more advanced age, right?
Is this a mere drama enacted for the sole purpose of driving up forum usage/website ratings?!Well, forum usage/website ratings increasing would be lovely. Afterall, this website is and should be for everyone. The details are not reveled yet. Why the negativity?
QuoteThe advantage of the tulku system is that those who are identified as a tulku can get 'fast tracked' in their scholastic study so they can act from their full potential faster.
But is this alleged tulku still young? If not then there's no point of assuming this title at a more advanced age, right?
QuoteKeeping him secret now, let's TGIE know they have failed.PoliticsQuoteAnnouncing it slowly is to give hope and protect his life.People hope the politics will end. Dorje Shugden is good enough, yet another reincarnation will not solve the problem.
Is this a mere drama enacted for the sole purpose of driving up forum usage/website ratings?!Well, forum usage/website ratings increasing would be lovely. Afterall, this website is and should be for everyone. The details are not reveled yet. Why the negativity?
But by announce something (in advance) that has a motive right? You suggested to let the TGIE know they have failed, that seems political to me.
OK, if it is true and must remain secret why taunt the public? Just keep it secret, right?
QuoteCan I just clarify - are you doubting that Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen's incarnation is back or are you saying that Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen is not important so whether he is back or not is of no consequence?
I am not precluding Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen from having a reincarnation. However, the circumstances seem strange:
1. Domo Geshe Rinpoche was recognized as the incarnation of Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen by the previous Trijang Rinpoche.
2. Publicly announcing there is one, but who it is can't be disclosed seems strange, why?
Be not as Doubting Thomas!
The Story is still being told children,
Keep Quiet until it is finished
QuoteKeeping him secret now, let's TGIE know they have failed.PoliticsQuoteAnnouncing it slowly is to give hope and protect his life.People hope the politics will end. Dorje Shugden is good enough, yet another reincarnation will not solve the problem.
1. Since no one knows where Kyabje Drakpa Gyeltsen is now, it is premature to say it is not true, or it's a poltical tulku, etc. You haven't seen the stone said to be a diamond yet. It could be and it could not be. So be open since you know nothing of the person nor circumstances.
When it's revealed, then cast your stones if you can at that time. If a great lama recognized this person decades ago (as it said), who are you to criticize? Why do you surpass the lamas when it comes to the Tulku and Oracle system?? You don't like it, fine. Don't criticize. It has served its purpose well among the elite greats who finds the system genuine and beneficial. Trijang Rinpoche becomes wrong when it comes to issues you don't like, nor our culture doesn't support? Because Geshe Kelsang doesn't support it, then it's wrong. Well if he's saying it's wrong, then maybe he can be wrong also? Didn't Geshe-la forbid forum use? Then are you Geshe-la's students not listening to what he says and turning things around for your advantage? (This is not meant to criticize Geshe-la or his students, it is to bring a point home please-I have nothing against Geshe-la, and at the same time, everything he believes and does I certainly do not agree with as do many people. But I am not going to come down on him because of those issues I don't agree on-everyone does the best they can. After all, Geshe-la is a normal human being with great learning and karma also. So he can make mistakes, but it does not mean he is bad, or should be disrespected in any way.-Again my apologies to say these things, I mean no offence to the great Monk Geshe Kelsang, in fact I respect greatly. ) Just because Geshe Kelsang doesn't approve or support does not mean it is wrong. Or has no purpose.
2.Who recognized this incarnation of Kyabje Drakpa Gyeltsen? You do not know either. Since you do not know who the lama is, be open and don't judge. What happens if the recognizing lama was the previous Zong Rinpoche, Dagom Rinpoche, Sogpu Rinpoche or even Trijang Rinpoche themselves?
3. Oracles and tulkus may not work in Geshe-la organization and that's fine. But just because Geshe-la does not endorse them, does not mean they have no use. Zong Rinpoche and other high beings found them useful. Trijang Rinpoche blessed monks and people to become oracles. So are you saying Trijang Rinpoche was just doing cheap tricks? Since Trijang Rinpoche is Geshe Kelsang's root guru, it would be good for him not to criticize this practice as it was a practice of his own root guru. If Geshe-la doesn't like the practice, stay quiet otherwise he becomes like Dalai Lama who says Trijiang Rinpoche was sublime except when it came to Dorje Shugden. Trijang Rinpoche during his lifetime recognizes many tulkus for example the previous Dagom Rinpoche who turned out to be a gem. So was Trijang Rinpoche political in recognizing them?
4. Then don't look for the incarnations of Zemey, Trijang, Dagom, Zong, Tendar, Gonsar, Gangchen, Denma Gonsa, Drayab, Panchen, Dromo Geshe, Sogpu, Rabten, Zawa, Dakpo, Pabongka, Daknak, Yongyal Rinpoches. They and many more are tulkus and they turned out fine. More than fine. How many great Geshes with pure monkhood, great learning and practice are arising from the monasteries now? Think? It is a dangerous time. Stop the tulku system within the Gelug and 'erase' all these great names who can do so much, and there is great danger.
So what are you proposing, to not look for any of their incarnations? Not educate them and give them a chance to open the karmas from their previous incarnations? They mess up, mess up. How many ordinary Geshes and monks messed up and disrobed? Countless. Look at Geshe Thupten Jinpa married with two kids. So should we stop the Geshe system and monk ordinations because countless messed up, disrobed and not put their learning/training into use??
What about Gen Samten who was well respected monk and teacher after Geshe-la in Kadampa? He disrobed? So how? The whole system is wrong in Kadampa? How many monks/nuns have left Kadampa? Does that mean it is wrong? Of course not. So stop using negative examples to bring a tradition that worked for the most part. In samsara both ways cannot, so just accept make do. Geshe-la system doesn't fully work. It will be interesting to see what happens to Kadampa after Geshe-la passes away (forgive me for even saying that-apologies).
Don't simply put the tulkus and oracles down. The greats of our lineage that transmit the pure doctrine to us regarded the tulku system with high regard. They also talked to Dorje Shugden via the oracles thousands of times in their lifetimes. Since they are such great teachers, with great intelligence, precise logic, tremendous experience, we should respect what they respect for the most part. If we don't like, we don't have to name what they respect or recognize as hoax, or political or wrong. Then if they are wrong, why practice what they teach? Since they are right, you have beings like Geshe Kelsang existing today.
5. This issue of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen and what happened to him after being strangled is a big issue on the plateau of Tibetan Buddhism for the most part. Maybe it has no followers in the greater part of the world, but if this issue is not big and shattering for those involved, why are we on this forum? Most of the 6 billion ppl on this planet don't give a hoot as to what we are debating about in this forum. So does that mean it is not important? Out of 6 billion ppl in the world only around 360 million are Buddhists. From this number, how many are Tibetan Buddhists? Again how many our Gelugs and in our lineage? Becomea small doesn't it? So what's the point?
The rarity of Lama Tzongkapa's tradition is acknowledged clearly. Numbers doesn't make it not important. If what happened to Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen was not important and still holds no relevance, then we would all be good friends of Dalai Lama and even perhaps his students? Geshe Kelsang and Dalai Lama would be the best of friends, after all, isn't that what Great Geshes like themselves should be-forgiving, loving, humble and accepting and loving all sentient beings? NOT 'against' each other and having protests against the other? Is that monkly? Samsara has never been perfect. Why look for something that has never existed? View of how you want to be although we are stuck in dualism, lack of merit and zero attainments?
6. There's nothing political about Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen not being able to be silenced. Silenced in this case means to let people think he was evil or became a spirit or not fit to teach. He is back which means those who WERE POLITICALLY MOTIVATED IN KILLING HIM WAS NOT SUCCESSFUL! HE HAS BEEN BACK AGAIN AND AGAIN AND NOW AGAIN and unfortunately all the energy TGIE spent on erasing him did not work.
Be gentle. Don't criticize. Watch. Observe. Reserve judgement till you know the FULL DETAILS OF THIS KYABJE DRAKPA GYELTSEN. He could surprise you and turn out great. If he doesn't then you can open up the 'I hate tulkus, banish tulku system' protests/writings/plarcards/opinions again. For now watch. Observe. Be wise and reserve pre-judgement from one announcement on this website and you know nothing of the intimate details yet.
TK
Dear Admin-folks (whoever you are) and dear tk, I think people are here mostly either idolaters or agnostics, concerning this issue. (Yes, I do have tongue in cheek...)
And some, like me, tried to rise the practice to the forefront. So please, all of you Guru-dance'a'rounders - if this expression is acceptable - try to understand this other position as something not opposing, but, well, just different. For some, the world changes through personal practice, and for some, well, we need a sort of Second Coming.
There are different views on this. Generally if we speak of many emanations of one master that slightly goes against the yangsi system (serial rebirth) that is used to recognize official reincarnations. In the true spiritual there are many re-emanations possible, but I've never heard of officially recognition of multiple.
QuoteKeeping him secret now, let's TGIE know they have failed.PoliticsQuoteAnnouncing it slowly is to give hope and protect his life.People hope the politics will end. Dorje Shugden is good enough, yet another reincarnation will not solve the problem.
I find this all quite strange, but hey ho, maybe i'm quite strange..
You know, it wouldn't suprise me if it was revealed that it is Tsem!! Ta-da!! :D
Maybe they revealed it will be Mohani!! Ta-da!!
I find this all quite strange, but hey ho, maybe i'm quite strange..
You know, it wouldn't suprise me if it was revealed that it is Tsem!! Ta-da!! :D
That doesn't mean you have won me over, it just seems pointless to argue based on such a small amount of public information.
Dear all,
no disrespect meant. I am cautious because I believe there have been numerous occasions where the wrong incarnation was "found" and where that person has been used for political motivations. I also think that many incarnations have rightly been recognized by highly realised Masters, but if we look today to the situation in the Buddhist world, many are under the influence of the DL and TGIE or afraid to go againste the wishes of the DL or TGIE. (Maybe for good reasons, they may have family in refugee camps etc..)
It looks as if the tulku system has been and is used for more than spiritual purposes. (See all the western tulkus, and many Tibetans, they have all disrobed ! Traditions have been split (Kagyu))
I am very grateful for the admin to give us so much useful information but I disagree that my faith in Dorje Shugden depends on me believing/accepting without proof that Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen is back.
For me his return will only have meaning if he manifest the aspects of a true follower of Je Tsongkhapa's tradition.
And if he can help people of this world by spreading Buddhadharma far and wide ofcourse I will rejoice and honour him. But I also rejoice in anyone who does this, tulku or not.
Vajra
That doesn't mean you have won me over, it just seems pointless to argue based on such a small amount of public information.
Just thought things might be going that way. I don't mean to cause him any problems.
Having read some public biographies very closely I know who this probably is. In a spiritual sense this is a "don't care" for me whether it goes public or not, because I know who my teachers are and they are the only ones I need to see as a Buddha. Given the political situation nowadays it is a bit concerning what social effect this will have.
Because there are many things to consider with this.
QuoteKyabje Drakpa Gyeltsen could have many students, so it might matter to them quite alot. Bless them and their teacher because it will not be easy for them if it is fully revealed.
So aren't we doing them a favor by expressing our caution and concerns on this matter?
Well, then, I think the best thing to do would be to play it down for the sake of them.
Dear Admin-folks (whoever you are) and dear tk, I think people are here mostly either idolaters or agnostics, concerning this issue. (Yes, I do have tongue in cheek...)
And some, like me, tried to rise the practice to the forefront. So please, all of you Guru-dance'a'rounders - if this expression is acceptable - try to understand this other position as something not opposing, but, well, just different. For some, the world changes through personal practice, and for some, well, we need a sort of Second Coming.
I dont need a second coming. But it's coming. You judge everything from a judeo christian mono theistic background. I can't blame you. But not everything revolves around your upbringing. Tibet, it's traditions, Buddhism is worlds apart from what you know, what you are use to, and what you see as acceptable. You can just practice and become a Buddha. You don't have to dance around a guru, and neither do we, but if a incarnation is coming, why not.
My views and beliefs are different than your's but I don't appreciate being labelled a Guru-dance'a'rounder because they are different than your's. Please refrain from the name calling. The world indeed changes with practice. So change your world.
Dear Admin-folks (whoever you are) and dear tk, I think people are here mostly either idolaters or agnostics, concerning this issue. (Yes, I do have tongue in cheek...)
And some, like me, tried to rise the practice to the forefront. So please, all of you Guru-dance'a'rounders - if this expression is acceptable - try to understand this other position as something not opposing, but, well, just different. For some, the world changes through personal practice, and for some, well, we need a sort of Second Coming.
I dont need a second coming. But it's coming. You judge everything from a judeo christian mono theistic background. I can't blame you. But not everything revolves around your upbringing. Tibet, it's traditions, Buddhism is worlds apart from what you know, what you are use to, and what you see as acceptable. You can just practice and become a Buddha. You don't have to dance around a guru, and neither do we, but if a incarnation is coming, why not.
My views and beliefs are different than your's but I don't appreciate being labelled a Guru-dance'a'rounder because they are different than your's. Please refrain from the name calling. The world indeed changes with practice. So change your world.
I'm sorry if I offended you. It was not my intention. (I even tried to make that view sure by saying if this expression is acceptable, implying, that my expression was, while non-common, yet non-offensive.) But no matter what, I am sorry for whatever bad feelings my post might have rised. I chose my words wrongly, so my fault.
Nevertheless, it was quite interesting for me to see that someone, in this case you, would think that I would be thinking in a judeo-christian theistic way, but then when I read my post with the comment idolaters and agnostics, I'll guess it was coming. Hmmm. Eventhough there was that tongue in cheek. But I'll guess I have quite a lot to do in my communication skills. It is just so easy to be misunderstood when the two parties do not know each other personally beforehand. But in any case, this was my mistake.
My apologies,
your non-judeo-christian friend in Dharma
We do not need cliche and clubs or gangs on this site.
Now as my Ma used to say, ' If you cannot say something nice. Do not say anything at all".
So let's try that for awhile instead of this clammoring that is nonsense defense that is bending my mind and messing with my wa.
Okay?[/b]
"
Now as my Ma used to say, ' If you cannot say something nice. Do not say anything at all".
So let's try that for awhile instead. Okay?
OK, I am noticing a partisan divide here.
1. Since no one knows where Kyabje Drakpa Gyeltsen is now, it is premature to say it is not true, or it's a poltical tulku, etc. You haven't seen the stone said to be a diamond yet. It could be and it could not be. So be open since you know nothing of the person nor circumstances.
When it's revealed, then cast your stones if you can at that time. If a great lama recognized this person decades ago (as it said), who are you to criticize? Why do you surpass the lamas when it comes to the Tulku and Oracle system?? You don't like it, fine. Don't criticize. It has served its purpose well among the elite greats who finds the system genuine and beneficial. Trijang Rinpoche becomes wrong when it comes to issues you don't like, nor our culture doesn't support? Because Geshe Kelsang doesn't support it, then it's wrong. Well if he's saying it's wrong, then maybe he can be wrong also? Didn't Geshe-la forbid forum use? Then are you Geshe-la's students not listening to what he says and turning things around for your advantage? (This is not meant to criticize Geshe-la or his students, it is to bring a point home please-I have nothing against Geshe-la, and at the same time, everything he believes and does I certainly do not agree with as do many people. But I am not going to come down on him because of those issues I don't agree on-everyone does the best they can. After all, Geshe-la is a normal human being with great learning and karma also. So he can make mistakes, but it does not mean he is bad, or should be disrespected in any way.-Again my apologies to say these things, I mean no offence to the great Monk Geshe Kelsang, in fact I respect greatly. ) Just because Geshe Kelsang doesn't approve or support does not mean it is wrong. Or has no purpose.
2.Who recognized this incarnation of Kyabje Drakpa Gyeltsen? You do not know either. Since you do not know who the lama is, be open and don't judge. What happens if the recognizing lama was the previous Zong Rinpoche, Dagom Rinpoche, Sogpu Rinpoche or even Trijang Rinpoche themselves?
3. Oracles and tulkus may not work in Geshe-la organization and that's fine. But just because Geshe-la does not endorse them, does not mean they have no use. Zong Rinpoche and other high beings found them useful. Trijang Rinpoche blessed monks and people to become oracles. So are you saying Trijang Rinpoche was just doing cheap tricks? Since Trijang Rinpoche is Geshe Kelsang's root guru, it would be good for him not to criticize this practice as it was a practice of his own root guru. If Geshe-la doesn't like the practice, stay quiet otherwise he becomes like Dalai Lama who says Trijiang Rinpoche was sublime except when it came to Dorje Shugden. Trijang Rinpoche during his lifetime recognizes many tulkus for example the previous Dagom Rinpoche who turned out to be a gem. So was Trijang Rinpoche political in recognizing them?
4. Then don't look for the incarnations of Zemey, Trijang, Dagom, Zong, Tendar, Gonsar, Gangchen, Denma Gonsa, Drayab, Panchen, Dromo Geshe, Sogpu, Rabten, Zawa, Dakpo, Pabongka, Daknak, Yongyal Rinpoches. They and many more are tulkus and they turned out fine. More than fine. How many great Geshes with pure monkhood, great learning and practice are arising from the monasteries now? Think? It is a dangerous time. Stop the tulku system within the Gelug and 'erase' all these great names who can do so much, and there is great danger.
So what are you proposing, to not look for any of their incarnations? Not educate them and give them a chance to open the karmas from their previous incarnations? They mess up, mess up. How many ordinary Geshes and monks messed up and disrobed? Countless. Look at Geshe Thupten Jinpa married with two kids. So should we stop the Geshe system and monk ordinations because countless messed up, disrobed and not put their learning/training into use??
What about Gen Samten who was well respected monk and teacher after Geshe-la in Kadampa? He disrobed? So how? The whole system is wrong in Kadampa? How many monks/nuns have left Kadampa? Does that mean it is wrong? Of course not. So stop using negative examples to bring a tradition that worked for the most part. In samsara both ways cannot, so just accept make do. Geshe-la system doesn't fully work. It will be interesting to see what happens to Kadampa after Geshe-la passes away (forgive me for even saying that-apologies).
Don't simply put the tulkus and oracles down. The greats of our lineage that transmit the pure doctrine to us regarded the tulku system with high regard. They also talked to Dorje Shugden via the oracles thousands of times in their lifetimes. Since they are such great teachers, with great intelligence, precise logic, tremendous experience, we should respect what they respect for the most part. If we don't like, we don't have to name what they respect or recognize as hoax, or political or wrong. Then if they are wrong, why practice what they teach? Since they are right, you have beings like Geshe Kelsang existing today.
5. This issue of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen and what happened to him after being strangled is a big issue on the plateau of Tibetan Buddhism for the most part. Maybe it has no followers in the greater part of the world, but if this issue is not big and shattering for those involved, why are we on this forum? Most of the 6 billion ppl on this planet don't give a hoot as to what we are debating about in this forum. So does that mean it is not important? Out of 6 billion ppl in the world only around 360 million are Buddhists. From this number, how many are Tibetan Buddhists? Again how many our Gelugs and in our lineage? Becomea small doesn't it? So what's the point?
The rarity of Lama Tzongkapa's tradition is acknowledged clearly. Numbers doesn't make it not important. If what happened to Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen was not important and still holds no relevance, then we would all be good friends of Dalai Lama and even perhaps his students? Geshe Kelsang and Dalai Lama would be the best of friends, after all, isn't that what Great Geshes like themselves should be-forgiving, loving, humble and accepting and loving all sentient beings? NOT 'against' each other and having protests against the other? Is that monkly? Samsara has never been perfect. Why look for something that has never existed? View of how you want to be although we are stuck in dualism, lack of merit and zero attainments?
6. There's nothing political about Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen not being able to be silenced. Silenced in this case means to let people think he was evil or became a spirit or not fit to teach. He is back which means those who WERE POLITICALLY MOTIVATED IN KILLING HIM WAS NOT SUCCESSFUL! HE HAS BEEN BACK AGAIN AND AGAIN AND NOW AGAIN and unfortunately all the energy TGIE spent on erasing him did not work.
Be gentle. Don't criticize. Watch. Observe. Reserve judgement till you know the FULL DETAILS OF THIS KYABJE DRAKPA GYELTSEN. He could surprise you and turn out great. If he doesn't then you can open up the 'I hate tulkus, banish tulku system' protests/writings/plarcards/opinions again. For now watch. Observe. Be wise and reserve pre-judgement from one announcement on this website and you know nothing of the intimate details yet.
TK
Three Days Pretending We Are A Forum Of Buddhist Practioners,
Practicing Exactly As Lord Buddha Taught Us to Behave
This is new to me, despite all my research I have never seen a Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen reincarnation mentioned. In fact the Shugden historical accounts have used the lack of a reincarnation as a form of justification, that's how the 19th century author Tsunpa Mati justifies Dorje Shugden as being the reincarnation of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, which is quoted by Pabongkha Rinpoche.
There was a Zhide Nyungne Lama reincarnation that is said to be an emanation of Panchen Sonam Dragpa, but one of the later supposed reincarnations fell into disrepute when he and the Reting Rinpoche tried assassinating Taktra Rinpoche.
Technically there are many emanations possible, but as far as official recognitions go this is as much as I know, not to mention it is unclear if the Zhide Nyungne Lama reincarnation line was broken or not.
This will be marked by the birth of Dorje Shugden as the definitive deity in Buddhism and the world. I'm gonna be part of this!
What a thouroughly unpleasant and unrealistic idea!
Also in the Dorje Shugden Be Bum there is a 100 year old supplication to various incarnations written by Vajra Shugden (Shugden oracle) that enumerates what appears to be some Kumbum Jampa Ling abbots as emanations. Yet they didn't assume the official title of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen reincarnations.
This tulku was recognized decades ago. Read the write up on the homepage. That means he could of finished his studies and doing deeds now under another assumed name.
tk
The concern for me is who is driving this along. If someone is eager to assume the title that is not very good. If there is no clout to back up the recognitions those are the conditions one should take into account, just let it pass by and avoid controversy. It's looking like there is no authoritative clout left in Tibetan Buddhism to unambiguously back up recognitions (publicly at least), so instead of pulling the cloth from both and ends ripping it, just let go of the cloth (remember the dreams of King Titi in Buddha's time).
Especially in this case, there hasn't been an official line of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen incarnations for 300 years. Even if one has been recognized as a Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen emanation, such as in supplications or posterior reincarnation enumerations, I don't think that entitles a person to say they are the Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen reincarnation. It looks especially suspicious that after one of the biggest controversies in 300 years, now suddenly there is a Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen incarnation.
This tulku was recognized decades ago. Read the write up on the homepage. That means he could of finished his studies and doing deeds now under another assumed name.
tk
'recognized decades ago'..I hope those great lamas recognized him still be there today and can 're-confirm' about it if he goes public, otherwise it is much like tricks of those 'faked tulkus'...hey we have a lot running around already...
QuoteMy personal view is, if they are fake Tulkus but are doing great work to benefit the world, I support them
I would put the onus of conscience on them. In particular the Bodhisattva Vows mentions not to make claims of attainments one does not have, etc. In other words, they shouldn't claim to be something they are not.
This tulku was recognized decades ago. Read the write up on the homepage. That means he could of finished his studies and doing deeds now under another assumed name.
tk
'recognized decades ago'..I hope those great lamas recognized him still be there today and can 're-confirm' about it if he goes public, otherwise it is much like tricks of those 'faked tulkus'...hey we have a lot running around already...
There are REAL Tulkus whose work in certain lifetimes cannot compare to those who are not Tulkus. Take for example, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, although not recognised a Tulku, has done much work to propagate the Dharma globally.
Some of these Tulkus, due to certain condition, may not manifest their greatness, or was stunted.
......
Let's leave this real or fake thing to those who are in authority to recognise them? We can discuss until the cows come home but are we not the authority to recognise whether he's real or fake and has no basis?
QuoteI mean if Pabongkha Rinpoche was recognised and enthroned as Changkya’s incarnation when he was poor and not famous when he was in Sera initially, I am sure we will all scream “boo!”.
As far as I know Pabongkha Rinpoche was not officially recognized as a Changkya reincarnation (ie. enthroned) even later. Tagphu Padmavajra and some disciples recognized him as such and included that in his enumerated reincarnation lineage, but that is still not the official Changkya line. Pabongkha's life was probably much more open, down-to-earth and fortunate not to bound down by the Changkya name and estate, although he could have been a real reincarnation.
I'm sorry, I need to differ a little from some Tibetans here. I think it is a bit of a fault that disciples have to feel in order for their lama to be great they have to be boosted up to some high level and be recognized as the reincarnation of some very high being. This is the same problem with the Dalai Lama, all kinds of ambiguous quotes needs to be thrown together to public justify he is the official Chenrezig. Sorry, this is not how I understand guru devotion.
You missed my point, technically we cannot 'date-back' saying Rinpoche X, Rinpoche Y recognized him as Rinpoche Z 'decades ago', if RPC X/Y deceased already and cannot 're-confirm' this claim. This is exactly tricks of a lot faked tulkus around us, so even if he is real, the announcement cannot be verified and be worthless..
Since many here doubt oracles and tulku system, would you believe he’s real if he has been recognised by an oracle? For sure if Dalai Lama recognise him, some of you might say that Dalai Lama is not ‘reliable’ and might have done so for certain political reasons?
If one does not believe in alternative methods, e.g. oracles & lama with clairvoyant, there’s no way until the incarnation himself did great works to prove to the world that he is who he is, but that will perhaps take decades.
QuoteThis is the definitive Dorje Shugden website and what you say here is a reflection of Dorje Shugden’s lineage, and this is how you ‘welcome’ the news that an incarnation is found?! I think even if the real incarnation of Tsongkhapa is back and is on this forum, the people here will start the same argument and doubt that he’s not.
The problem here is this. I don't know of anyone here waiting for an official Dorje Shugden incarnation. Many accept he could appear as one of the eight guiding monks or whatever, but entitling someone as the living Dorje Shugden incarnation is probably quite different from what many were expecting. We were taught in teachings that Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen was the final incarnation before becoming Dorje Shugden. I am not precluding the possibility of emanations or whatever, but that is more spiritual than official.
Bitchy remarks: Erm, ever heard of re-education??? :-X
Nor am I awaiting Je Tsongkhapa reincarnation. Listen, please, Je Tsongkhapa, for the benefit of sentient beings don't come back to this world now! It is so degenerate and no matter how pure you are your good name and example as Lobsang Dragpa will certainly be spoiled! It will be of much greater benefit for us to focus on you as you set an immaculate example in the 14th century rather than a form in the 21st century.
....
Nor am I awaiting Je Tsongkhapa reincarnation. Listen, please, Je Tsongkhapa, for the benefit of sentient beings don't come back to this world now! It is so degenerate ....
QuoteI am sure Je Rinpoche's aspiration prayers include manifesting at different times and places again and again to benefit beings, and that his worries is not about his name being spoiled.
I am sure Je Rinpoche's activities pervade the 10 directions, but luckily he never established a reincarnation lineage! We are very fortunate, otherwise we could have all of these problems like dualing reincarnations or worse!
It has been revealed from historical sources that Dorje Shugden is the Three Bodhisattvas: Avalokiteshvara, Vajrapani and Manjushri (read: [url]http://www.dorjeshugdenhistory.org/among-shugden-texts-summary.html[/url]).
There are different views on this. Generally if we speak of many emanations of one master that slightly goes against the yangsi system (serial rebirth) that is used to recognize official reincarnations. In the true spiritual there are many re-emanations possible, but I've never heard of officially recognition of multiple.
QuoteDoesn’t it mean Dorje Shugden IS Je Tsongkhapa?
OK, sure, but now you're discrediting your own argument. Every alleged enlightened being is every other enlightened being! Karmapa is Dorje Shugden! Tulku X is Dorje Shugden! Tulku X is Karmapa! The Dalai Lama is Karmapa!
Then why do we have different names for these reincarnation lineages?! Why don't we just say they are Buddha or something?
3. Oracles and tulkus may not work in Geshe-la organization and that's fine. But just because Geshe-la does not endorse them, does not mean they have no use. Zong Rinpoche and other high beings found them useful. Trijang Rinpoche blessed monks and people to become oracles. So are you saying Trijang Rinpoche was just doing cheap tricks? Since Trijang Rinpoche is Geshe Kelsang's root guru, it would be good for him not to criticize this practice as it was a practice of his own root guru. If Geshe-la doesn't like the practice, stay quiet otherwise he becomes like Dalai Lama who says Trijiang Rinpoche was sublime except when it came to Dorje Shugden. Trijang Rinpoche during his lifetime recognizes many tulkus for example the previous Dagom Rinpoche who turned out to be a gem. So was Trijang Rinpoche political in recognizing them?
This announcement has far reaching implications for the current world situation that many things have changed over night. As the news filters throughout the world just how much this means will come to light.
1/ Spirits do not reincarnate.
2/ Reincarnations cannot harm HHDL life.
3/ Reincarnations would not do anything to affect the cause of the Tibetan People.
4/ This incarnation is spreading Dharma just like the previous incarnations.
5/ As a reincarnation, then there is attainments to control rebirth making this not an ordinary being.
6/ The fact that after soo many years only today is the announcement released means that this incarnation is free from the politics.
This site has been created with the understanding not to promote any ill will towards the Dalai Lama, and I hope that through this announcement the TGIE and all those who are out there will stop and think.
If you were one of the people, beating shugden supporters, putting them down, ostracizing and ridiculing till such a stage as they become like refugees, for what?
The incarnation of the Protector your believe is a spirit is back.
QuoteKeeping him secret now, let's TGIE know they have failed.PoliticsQuoteAnnouncing it slowly is to give hope and protect his life.People hope the politics will end. Dorje Shugden is good enough, yet another reincarnation will not solve the problem.
Secrecy is to protect his life. No politics from their mind or their side.
The incarnation is not meant to solve the 'problem'. Dulzin Drakpa Gyeltsen, Panchen Sonam Drakpa, Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen and Now Kyabje Drakpa Gyeltsen didn't incarnate to solve TGIE's self made problems. He came to teach dharma and benefit many. No problems made by TGIE can be solved only forgotten in time.
TK
::) :o 8) :)Too Funny! I am laughing a gurggling Brook of Smiles and Grins, "that We May Pretend!"
You missed my point, technically we cannot 'date-back' saying Rinpoche X, Rinpoche Y recognized him as Rinpoche Z 'decades ago', if RPC X/Y deceased already and cannot 're-confirm' this claim. This is exactly tricks of a lot faked tulkus around us, so even if he is real, the announcement cannot be verified and be worthless..
skeptic camp rears its ugly head again - you guys are skeptics right?
You don't want to see an end to the ban, you still wish people to suffer from wanting to practice DS, you don't believe in incarnate Lama's, there is nobody who can recognise tulkus, heck even DS himself cannot recognise a incarnate Lama, the world revolves around Geshe La and what he says applies for everything in the universe.
Turing Machine operating again me'thinks. emptymountains and crazyclouds decided to let trinleykalsang have a go at programming, didn't know where the "enter" key was so he got crazycloud to put his glasses on because he sat on his on the way over to the "Lets put down TDG party" at emptymountains house. They had a few too many beers and decided to program the Turin Machine 6.0 with some cheap one liners so that they didn't have to think any deeper about the TDG announcement.
TK's 6 points sum it all up nicely.
And I love the poem it really is something to say and skillful too... perhaps the skeptic party can learn from itQuoteBe not as Doubting Thomas!
The Story is still being told children,
Keep Quiet until it is finished
QuoteMy personal view is, if they are fake Tulkus but are doing great work to benefit the world, I support them
I would put the onus of conscience on them. In particular the Bodhisattva Vows mentions not to make claims of attainments one does not have, etc. In other words, they shouldn't claim to be something they are not.
The Supreme Protector of Dharma
Our Supreme Defender of the Dharma
Our Champion Lord Dorje Shugden Arisen
We Rise With Him
Hold Onto Your Hats!
QuoteThis is the definitive Dorje Shugden website and what you say here is a reflection of Dorje Shugden’s lineage, and this is how you ‘welcome’ the news that an incarnation is found?! I think even if the real incarnation of Tsongkhapa is back and is on this forum, the people here will start the same argument and doubt that he’s not.
The problem here is this. I don't know of anyone here waiting for an official Dorje Shugden incarnation. Many accept he could appear as one of the eight guiding monks or whatever, but entitling someone as the living Dorje Shugden incarnation is probably quite different from what many were expecting. We were taught in teachings that Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen was the final incarnation before becoming Dorje Shugden. I am not precluding the possibility of emanations or whatever, but that is more spiritual than official.
Nor am I awaiting Je Tsongkhapa reincarnation. Listen, please, Je Tsongkhapa, for the benefit of sentient beings don't come back to this world now! It is so degenerate and no matter how pure you are your good name and example as Lobsang Dragpa will certainly be spoiled! It will be of much greater benefit for us to focus on you as you set an immaculate example in the 14th century rather than a form in the 21st century.
H.O.A.X
1. Since no one knows where Kyabje Drakpa Gyeltsen is now, it is premature to say it is not true, or it's a poltical tulku, etc. You haven't seen the stone said to be a diamond yet. It could be and it could not be. So be open since you know nothing of the person nor circumstances.
When it's revealed, then cast your stones if you can at that time. If a great lama recognized this person decades ago (as it said), who are you to criticize? Why do you surpass the lamas when it comes to the Tulku and Oracle system?? You don't like it, fine. Don't criticize. It has served its purpose well among the elite greats who finds the system genuine and beneficial. Trijang Rinpoche becomes wrong when it comes to issues you don't like, nor our culture doesn't support? Because Geshe Kelsang doesn't support it, then it's wrong. Well if he's saying it's wrong, then maybe he can be wrong also? Didn't Geshe-la forbid forum use? Then are you Geshe-la's students not listening to what he says and turning things around for your advantage? (This is not meant to criticize Geshe-la or his students, it is to bring a point home please-I have nothing against Geshe-la, and at the same time, everything he believes and does I certainly do not agree with as do many people. But I am not going to come down on him because of those issues I don't agree on-everyone does the best they can. After all, Geshe-la is a normal human being with great learning and karma also. So he can make mistakes, but it does not mean he is bad, or should be disrespected in any way.-Again my apologies to say these things, I mean no offence to the great Monk Geshe Kelsang, in fact I respect greatly. ) Just because Geshe Kelsang doesn't approve or support does not mean it is wrong. Or has no purpose.
2.Who recognized this incarnation of Kyabje Drakpa Gyeltsen? You do not know either. Since you do not know who the lama is, be open and don't judge. What happens if the recognizing lama was the previous Zong Rinpoche, Dagom Rinpoche, Sogpu Rinpoche or even Trijang Rinpoche themselves?
3. Oracles and tulkus may not work in Geshe-la organization and that's fine. But just because Geshe-la does not endorse them, does not mean they have no use. Zong Rinpoche and other high beings found them useful. Trijang Rinpoche blessed monks and people to become oracles. So are you saying Trijang Rinpoche was just doing cheap tricks? Since Trijang Rinpoche is Geshe Kelsang's root guru, it would be good for him not to criticize this practice as it was a practice of his own root guru. If Geshe-la doesn't like the practice, stay quiet otherwise he becomes like Dalai Lama who says Trijiang Rinpoche was sublime except when it came to Dorje Shugden. Trijang Rinpoche during his lifetime recognizes many tulkus for example the previous Dagom Rinpoche who turned out to be a gem. So was Trijang Rinpoche political in recognizing them?
4. Then don't look for the incarnations of Zemey, Trijang, Dagom, Zong, Tendar, Gonsar, Gangchen, Denma Gonsa, Drayab, Panchen, Dromo Geshe, Sogpu, Rabten, Zawa, Dakpo, Pabongka, Daknak, Yongyal Rinpoches. They and many more are tulkus and they turned out fine. More than fine. How many great Geshes with pure monkhood, great learning and practice are arising from the monasteries now? Think? It is a dangerous time. Stop the tulku system within the Gelug and 'erase' all these great names who can do so much, and there is great danger.
So what are you proposing, to not look for any of their incarnations? Not educate them and give them a chance to open the karmas from their previous incarnations? They mess up, mess up. How many ordinary Geshes and monks messed up and disrobed? Countless. Look at Geshe Thupten Jinpa married with two kids. So should we stop the Geshe system and monk ordinations because countless messed up, disrobed and not put their learning/training into use??
What about Gen Samten who was well respected monk and teacher after Geshe-la in Kadampa? He disrobed? So how? The whole system is wrong in Kadampa? How many monks/nuns have left Kadampa? Does that mean it is wrong? Of course not. So stop using negative examples to bring a tradition that worked for the most part. In samsara both ways cannot, so just accept make do. Geshe-la system doesn't fully work. It will be interesting to see what happens to Kadampa after Geshe-la passes away (forgive me for even saying that-apologies).
Don't simply put the tulkus and oracles down. The greats of our lineage that transmit the pure doctrine to us regarded the tulku system with high regard. They also talked to Dorje Shugden via the oracles thousands of times in their lifetimes. Since they are such great teachers, with great intelligence, precise logic, tremendous experience, we should respect what they respect for the most part. If we don't like, we don't have to name what they respect or recognize as hoax, or political or wrong. Then if they are wrong, why practice what they teach? Since they are right, you have beings like Geshe Kelsang existing today.
5. This issue of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen and what happened to him after being strangled is a big issue on the plateau of Tibetan Buddhism for the most part. Maybe it has no followers in the greater part of the world, but if this issue is not big and shattering for those involved, why are we on this forum? Most of the 6 billion ppl on this planet don't give a hoot as to what we are debating about in this forum. So does that mean it is not important? Out of 6 billion ppl in the world only around 360 million are Buddhists. From this number, how many are Tibetan Buddhists? Again how many our Gelugs and in our lineage? Becomea small doesn't it? So what's the point?
The rarity of Lama Tzongkapa's tradition is acknowledged clearly. Numbers doesn't make it not important. If what happened to Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen was not important and still holds no relevance, then we would all be good friends of Dalai Lama and even perhaps his students? Geshe Kelsang and Dalai Lama would be the best of friends, after all, isn't that what Great Geshes like themselves should be-forgiving, loving, humble and accepting and loving all sentient beings? NOT 'against' each other and having protests against the other? Is that monkly? Samsara has never been perfect. Why look for something that has never existed? View of how you want to be although we are stuck in dualism, lack of merit and zero attainments?
6. There's nothing political about Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen not being able to be silenced. Silenced in this case means to let people think he was evil or became a spirit or not fit to teach. He is back which means those who WERE POLITICALLY MOTIVATED IN KILLING HIM WAS NOT SUCCESSFUL! HE HAS BEEN BACK AGAIN AND AGAIN AND NOW AGAIN and unfortunately all the energy TGIE spent on erasing him did not work.
Be gentle. Don't criticize. Watch. Observe. Reserve judgement till you know the FULL DETAILS OF THIS KYABJE DRAKPA GYELTSEN. He could surprise you and turn out great. If he doesn't then you can open up the 'I hate tulkus, banish tulku system' protests/writings/plarcards/opinions again. For now watch. Observe. Be wise and reserve pre-judgement from one announcement on this website and you know nothing of the intimate details yet.
TK
So Geshe-la seemed to have chaned his mind, therefore he could have been wrong about the issue of not recognizing the Tulku and Oracle system also right?
So, just because Geshela doesn't recognize tulku, doesn't mean he is right, doesn't mean the incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen doesn't exist, or that it is a hoax.
So Geshe-la seemed to have chaned his mind, therefore he could have been wrong about the issue of not recognizing the Tulku and Oracle system also right?
So, just because Geshela doesn't recognize tulku, doesn't mean he is right, doesn't mean the incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen doesn't exist, or that it is a hoax.
GKG has surely changed his mind. But so has Shakyamuni Buddha himself. Changing minds and being right have nothing to do with each other; in fact, sometimes one necessitates the other, while sometimes not.
Also, the "not recognizing" -issue is merely an organizational policy of NKT, not a statement of the existence of tulkus and oracles. Surely GKG knew his uncle and accepted his work as an oracle. The NKT policy is nothing more than say, not giving special seats on a bus for oracles, for Thai Bus Companies do not recognize oracles. Monks they do recognize, and give special treatment. It is an organizational policy, not truth statement.
So please everyone, try not to confuse separate issues.
Thank you very much for that sharing. It seems clear that GKG rejected oracles on a personal basis. If he consulted them before, then oracles must have been valid. I like your point that the great Monasteries of Gaden and Sera have consulted oracles throughout the years, and that Shar Gaden's opening was officiated by the Gameng Choyang Kuten, so if oracles were not real, all this would not have happened. I think i prefer to believe the many monks of these holy institutions.
Hi Tk,
I like the oracle tradition, but I can understand why people may think it is weird can't you?
I have not said that I think the oracle tradition is wrong, of course it has it's place.
I thought Geshe-las uncle was invited by Geshe-las students not Geshe-la.
Hi Tk,
I like the oracle tradition, but I can understand why people may think it is weird can't you?
Hi TK,
I don't think the oracle tradition is weird at all, but DIFFERENT. To some the whole of Tibetan Buddhism is weird. So what. It doesn't make it weird, and those people who have manners would just have to respect.
I don't think the oracle tradition is weird at all, but DIFFERENT. To some the whole of Tibetan Buddhism is weird. So what. It doesn't make it weird, and those people who have manners would just have to respect.
Hi TK,
I wasn't asking if you thought it was weird, I was asking if you could understand that others find it weird. Yes, people may find Tibetan Buddhism weird, I guess that is why Geshe-la has dropped the cultural stuff and kept the Dharma, all beings need Dharma, maybe that is why his students have managed to reach so many people.
I like what Lineage holder said, so I will be quite now.
X
x
I said before that it would be nice if people would not confuse issues. I'll say it again.
I fail to see what has GKG's decisions, specific NKT policies, validity of Tulkus and oracles in general sense, the possibility that someone changes his mind, etc, have to do in common, and especially with this TDG-issue that exists, it seems, only on this forum? Why is NKT and GKG dragged into this even in the first place?
What are people discussing here? TDG or something else?
It is as if telling gossip about GKG would have something to add to this discussion, or something. As if gossip would act as a proof for or against this or that point. But hey, what was the point?
___________
PS: I must offer two corrections for something mentioned in one post, somewhere above: (1) Shakyamuni Buddha did occasionally change his mind, as evidenced by Classical Sutras (so why would a change of mind be an argument for or against anything). We all change sometimes our minds, including GKG, or even Buddha. (2) Thais do recognize the validity of Dharmaguptaka and Mulasarvastivada monks; they officially only dispute that they are the same as Theravada monks, but so do the other two Vinaya lineages as well. A monk is a monk, in Thailand, whether he is Thr.da, Dhrm.g.tka, or Ml.Srvs.da. If anyone wishes to discuss about these two points, let us do so in separate threads, not here, thank you.
Hi Tk,
I like the oracle tradition, but I can understand why people may think it is weird can't you?
We can each do our part to explain what the oracles are about, the history, background and logic behind how they "work". It is all about education. I'm sure at some point, each of us also didn't really understand what oracles were about but our kind teachers or fellow dharma friends explained things to us and helped us understand what it was really all about. Now, we appreciate the tradition and may even consult oracles ourselves - but it didn't always start like this.
I understand that some teachers may choose not to focus on this as it may not serve the students of that time and place, but those of us who are do understand it should always (out of compassion and understanding its benefit) try to explain it to others who do not understand or have wrong view about it.
*May Kyabje Drakpa Gyeltsen Rinpoche live exceptionally long and reveal his whereabouts very soon and may I have the chance to meet his incarnation wherever he is now.
*I feel in awe - like I'm witnessing history unfolding before my eyes.
*May Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen reveal himself as soon as possible to continue his holy work!
*And he has been amongst us for decades only goes to show HIS TIME HAS COME! I believe a new era is about to dawn on us.
*I feel extremely humbled by what is happening right now as these events begin to unfold.
*I wonder: is His Holiness feeling threatened today? Or is he chuckling to himself, amused that his old friend is "back" and the final showdown of "elaborate epic" of Dharma is finally unfolding?
*I hope his students know just how fortunate they are to be sitting at the feet of such a great being, and one who has suffered so much for the dharma.
*Once he is out in the public, can his name be put back as one of the lineage lamas?
*It's lovely and awe inspiring to receive news about the return of our Lord King Drakpa Gyeltsen. His presence and return might be the answer to all our turmoil and worries.
...anyway, this is really the final straw for me on this topic. I certainly wish you all the best, but I can't take it, I find it embarassing to be associated with this.
cheers and good luck!
Hi Tk,
I like the oracle tradition, but I can understand why people may think it is weird can't you?
We can each do our part to explain what the oracles are about, the history, background and logic behind how they "work". It is all about education. I'm sure at some point, each of us also didn't really understand what oracles were about but our kind teachers or fellow dharma friends explained things to us and helped us understand what it was really all about. Now, we appreciate the tradition and may even consult oracles ourselves - but it didn't always start like this.
I understand that some teachers may choose not to focus on this as it may not serve the students of that time and place, but those of us who are do understand it should always (out of compassion and understanding its benefit) try to explain it to others who do not understand or have wrong view about it.
So, all those who understand these oracle-things, please explain to me. If this cannot be explained, the only conclusion can be, that this need for oracularism is just a cultural thing of Tibetans, having nothing really to do with Dharma. And as you explain, please provide Sutra sources if possible. Protectors can be found in even the old Theravada Sutras, so I am not wondering about Protectors. Just oracles.
Thank you all, in advance,
ZP
:P
...anyway, this is really the final straw for me on this topic. I certainly wish you all the best, but I can't take it, I find it embarassing to be associated with this.
cheers and good luck!
Please stay. Otherwise the Fifth Column has won the game on this.
Hello tk, your answer went way beyond what I wanted. Thank you.
But, could we somehow remove this discussion into a separate thread? I think we can do that. In fact, I can copy-paste everything tomorrow, into that newly generated thread. So, dear Admin etc, let everything here remain as they are... (Meaning: No need for Admin to do anything.)
Is this about winning?? Oh dear. Then I don't need to spend so many hours posting information. It wouldn't help you anyway would it?
He could be a drunkard and swindler. But then he might not be. Maybe he is an ordained monk. Since we know nothing why assume the worst just because you know so little of who he is.
So we should not recognize tendar rinpoche, dagom rinpoche, dromo geshe rinpoche, rabten rinpoche and the current zong rinpoche as the tulku system is wrong. I don't think so.
You don't like to hear hopeful wishes regarding this incarnation, well I don't wish to hear your unnecessary judgement based on your ignorant hatred of the tulku system.
When you berate the Tulku system you have berated the multitudes of sublime tulkus that have appeared and benefitted so many for hundreds of years. I meet a couple of uncouth sailors,I don't need to put down the whole Navy. I don't need to chant with down with the Navy. Tulkus will continue to appear named and unnamed because they will fulfill their aspirations.
Why incessantly criticize someone you have never seen. Just because he is a tulku and all tulkus have been bad. I don't think so.
If they said there's a Tsongkapa incarnation, yes I would be like great, but I would reserve ANY NEGATIVE COMMENTS ABOUT THIS PERSON TILL I HAVE CHECKED IT OUT.
No matter what efforts I put is not appreciated for the effort and the sincerity alone, then that alone speaks volumes.
Sorry to say, humbly,
Tk
But dear tk, don't you see, that this "we the 6 on this forum", whomever we are, are not denying anything, including Tulkus - we are merely refusing to be lemmings.
HHDL has many lemmings.
Why should DS have them too?
Or TDG, by that token?
As to the question concerning Tulkus or oracles, let us make separate threads of these issues, without any specific instances made mentioned. Then we can discuss about these issues in general without any hint of politics.
And as for the idea of winning, well, I have for my part no game, except rationality and Dharma. That game I shall win... unless of course business goes well, and I'll have to think about investing in more business, whereby you guys have to do without me.
But anyway, if you really think it would be great to meet me, just come here... but contact me beforehand, since I might be in a neighbouring country otherwise, or something. Do you prefer bitter or cider? I do hope you are not one of those vegetarians we hear so much of these days...In this country we grill meat!
Why incessantly criticize someone you have never seen. Just because he is a tulku and all tulkus have been bad. I don't think so.
tk you have gotten confusedQuoteIf they said there's a Tsongkapa incarnation, yes I would be like great, but I would reserve ANY NEGATIVE COMMENTS ABOUT THIS PERSON TILL I HAVE CHECKED IT OUT.
to make your points seem less arbitrary, please cite one bad thing I have said about this person.QuoteNo matter what efforts I put is not appreciated for the effort and the sincerity alone, then that alone speaks volumes.
Oh for goodness sake!. I appreciate your efforts, ya big baby.
You have misinterpreted, I believe, what ZP was saying. I believe he meant that if I allow my exasperation with the forum members to make me leave, then I have lost. I am not sure what fifth column refers to.
In any case, it is certainly not me vs. you to see who will win, so try to relax. You usally post very calmly, but now yo8u have almost descended to my level. ;)QuoteSorry to say, humbly,
Tk
keep it humble tk. love it.
Oh for goodness sake!. I appreciate your efforts, ya big baby.
You have misinterpreted, I believe, what ZP was saying. I believe he meant that if I allow my exasperation with the forum members to make me leave, then I have lost. I am not sure what fifth column refers to.
Why incessantly criticize someone you have never seen. Just because he is a tulku and all tulkus have been bad. I don't think so.
tk you have gotten confusedQuoteIf they said there's a Tsongkapa incarnation, yes I would be like great, but I would reserve ANY NEGATIVE COMMENTS ABOUT THIS PERSON TILL I HAVE CHECKED IT OUT.
to make your points seem less arbitrary, please cite one bad thing I have said about this person.QuoteNo matter what efforts I put is not appreciated for the effort and the sincerity alone, then that alone speaks volumes.
Oh for goodness sake!. I appreciate your efforts, ya big baby.
You have misinterpreted, I believe, what ZP was saying. I believe he meant that if I allow my exasperation with the forum members to make me leave, then I have lost. I am not sure what fifth column refers to.
In any case, it is certainly not me vs. you to see who will win, so try to relax. You usally post very calmly, but now yo8u have almost descended to my level. ;)QuoteSorry to say, humbly,
Tk
keep it humble tk. love it.
Why incessantly criticize someone you have never seen. Just because he is a tulku and all tulkus have been bad. I don't think so.
tk you have gotten confusedQuoteIf they said there's a Tsongkapa incarnation, yes I would be like great, but I would reserve ANY NEGATIVE COMMENTS ABOUT THIS PERSON TILL I HAVE CHECKED IT OUT.
to make your points seem less arbitrary, please cite one bad thing I have said about this person.QuoteNo matter what efforts I put is not appreciated for the effort and the sincerity alone, then that alone speaks volumes.
Oh for goodness sake!. I appreciate your efforts, ya big baby.
You have misinterpreted, I believe, what ZP was saying. I believe he meant that if I allow my exasperation with the forum members to make me leave, then I have lost. I am not sure what fifth column refers to.
In any case, it is certainly not me vs. you to see who will win, so try to relax. You usally post very calmly, but now yo8u have almost descended to my level. ;)QuoteSorry to say, humbly,
Tk
keep it humble tk. love it.
I am not saying that there are no such things as Tulkus, or that they are never beneficial, so no need for psuedo prasangika consequences showing how I don't accept Trijang Rinpoche as he believed in Tulkus etc etc etc. That is just plain silly.
tulkus are real, and their nature is benefit. I just thought that in this day and age, especially among this group of people, we would know better that to repose our hopes in the hands of one. OF COURSE Tulkus are beneficial! OF COURSE there are oracles, and they can, in certain circumstances, be useful.
Can either one COMPLETELY DESTROY our lineage? Yup. There is a "tulku" who is out there trying right now, and the only reason he hasn't TOTALLY SUCCEEDED is that not everyone accepts him as who he is touted as being.
Finally, along the lines of Trinley Kelsang's (always ) sane and informed posts, it really makes no differece at all. Not to Dharamsala, not to those with a spirtual guide, to no one.
OS, kind reader, please realize that the tulku tradition is too dangerous in these our degenerate times. It will be the end of those who dance with it.
The actual "reincarnation " line of Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen ended at his death/buddhahood. SO whoever this is, if it is anyone at all, is a recognized emanation, at best. But if you have a guru, you already have that! Dorje Shugden's emanations pervade the owrld!! Why run after an "inherent" one?!?! What is it you need for this supposed emanation? TTGIE will COMPLETELY IGNORE THE RAVINGS OF ANYONE WHO CLAIMS HE IS WHO YOU SAYS HE IS, it will not even cause them to hiccup. Probably they will just laugh at what a bunch of superstitions sheep we are.
Your exasperation makes you might want to leave? Perhaps you should tone it down so that we are not exasperated with you. Be polite and nice, and not sarcastic PLEASE. I don't see anyone provoking you, yet you are consistently rude.
Not that I am telling you to leave, but if you leave who loses? Answer: NOBODY.
OS, kind reader, please realize that the tulku tradition is too dangerous in these our degenerate times. It will be the end of those who dance with it.
The actual "reincarnation " line of Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen ended at his death/buddhahood. SO whoever this is, if it is anyone at all, is a recognized emanation, at best. But if you have a guru, you already have that! Dorje Shugden's emanations pervade the owrld!! Why run after an "inherent" one?!?! What is it you need for this supposed emanation? TTGIE will COMPLETELY IGNORE THE RAVINGS OF ANYONE WHO CLAIMS HE IS WHO YOU SAYS HE IS, it will not even cause them to hiccup. Probably they will just laugh at what a bunch of superstitions sheep we are.
Yes! I remember the day as if were almost yesterday.
The first day this O'le White Anglo Saxon Protestant Witnessed his First Fire Puja.
Just like a Marshmellow roast with the Boys Scouts.lol
Y's gotta start somewhere and Believe me
In former times, you would never ever have heard of any of this
It was fairly much a High Lama Practice.
Meaning, All of us here are Extremly Fortunate to Receive What We Have Received..
So far!
As stated, the Gulugs never in the last 700 years ever been this treatened with extinction, as this very minute
What's to hide?
The Tantric is on the inside!
to make your points seem less arbitrary, please cite one bad thing I have said about this person.
The actual "reincarnation " line of Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen ended at his death/buddhahood. SO whoever this is, if it is anyone at all, is a recognized emanation, at best. But if you have a guru, you already have that! Dorje Shugden's emanations pervade the owrld!! Why run after an "inherent" one?!?! What is it you need for this supposed emanation? TTGIE will COMPLETELY IGNORE THE RAVINGS OF ANYONE WHO CLAIMS HE IS WHO YOU SAYS HE IS, it will not even cause them to hiccup. Probably they will just laugh at what a bunch of superstitions sheep we are.
It seems you are having some difficulty understanding the arguments put forth. No one said the Tulku system is wrong, did they? But it is true that if we uncritically accept these lamas without checking them, the DHarma is done for.
OS, kind reader, please realize that the tulku tradition is too dangerous in these our degenerate times. It will be the end of those who dance with it.
Hi,
I think that crazy cloud makes alot of good points. I like dorjeshugden.com very much. There are lots of wonderful things to read and see, it's an encyclopedia of great knowledge but the website recently has become a little fanatical and preachy in my view and needs to learn to be a little more humble. Announcing the new reincarnation of Drekpa Gyalsten in that way was extremely unskillful! To be honest I felt very embarrassed reading it, it made me cringe! We live in progressive times, we should try to fit in with modern convention. You are playing right into the Dalai Lama's hands, they will read some of this stuff and then they will accuse DS supporters of be a cult and being extremist! Thats not what we want now, is it! This is only my opinion!
If i was the editor i would make 4 changes!
1) Do not announce re-incarnations!
2) Stop the leaflet drop
3) Remove the videos of Dorje Shugden oracles in trance
4) Remove any really wrathful pictures of dorje shugden like the one in the top corner of this page.
Maybe it's ok for us to see all this, but for people looking in from the outside i don't think it is a very good advertisement. One should be more skillful!
Regards
LR
Funny thing, really fun, but looking from these recent posts in this thread, it would seem, that there are many persons wishing for Crazycloud to quit this forum.
Oh dear, whenever, and whether you are dealing with a Turing Machine or a 'human powered' Orchestrated Attack, what's the difference. Crap is crap.
The only thing one would wish, is that in the case there are humans on the other end, they would be forthright, or rather manly, about who ordered them. But that would probably be too much to ask, right...
Well your not the editor. Why don't you go and spend hundreds of hours and create a better website for dorje shugden and then spend hundreds of hours maintaining it. Certainly I couldn't. THANK YOU DORJESHUGDEN.COM the best shugden website in the world with now 302,000 hits! We dorje shugden devotees are proud of your work. Dharamsala please see our unity. We are proud!
I would keep all the four items you said to remove. And that is my opinion. If the announcements here make you cringe,and you say so openly and not a private considerate message to the web people, then YOU ARE PLAYING INTO THE HANDS OF DALAI LAMA YOURSELF. Why do you type these things openly. Private message means being more subtle. After all this website is an "encyclopedia of great knowledge" and who do you think did all that work??? Must be the website group, editor and all. So how about some kindness, subtetly, and consideration for them?
Crazyclouds points might be better heard if he CUTS OUT ALL THE SARCASM. IT'S NOT THE POINTS THAT BOTHER ME ABOUT HIS POSTS, IT'S THE CONSTANT SARCASM THAT IS UNNECESSARY HERE ALWAYS.
Thanks for the advice! Ever tried anger management though? Chill dude and have some of thom's magic mushroom soup! Were just debating, this is not a boxing ring! No one is right and no one is wrong!
Hi,
I think that crazy cloud makes alot of good points. I like dorjeshugden.com very much. There are lots of wonderful things to read and see, it's an encyclopedia of great knowledge but the website recently has become a little fanatical and preachy in my view and needs to learn to be a little more humble. Announcing the new reincarnation of Drekpa Gyalsten in that way was extremely unskillful! To be honest I felt very embarrassed reading it, it made me cringe! We live in progressive times, we should try to fit in with modern convention. You are playing right into the Dalai Lama's hands, they will read some of this stuff and then they will accuse DS supporters of be a cult and being extremist! Thats not what we want now, is it! This is only my opinion!
If i was the editor i would make 4 changes!
1) Do not announce re-incarnations!
2) Stop the leaflet drop
3) Remove the videos of Dorje Shugden oracles in trance
4) Remove any really wrathful pictures of dorje shugden like the one in the top corner of this page.
Maybe it's ok for us to see all this, but for people looking in from the outside i don't think it is a very good advertisement. One should be more skillful!
Regards
LR
If this is the problem, then I shall vouch to be at the least as sarcastic as CrazyCloud.
Thank you.
Ouch! Bumps and Lumps on a Washboard Road!
If you knew the Lone Ranger like I Know the Lone Ranger & ZP
You would not get into 'the' stew! lol :o
If this is the problem, then I shall vouch to be at the least as sarcastic as CrazyCloud.
Thank you.
THEN BUCKLE UP, IT'S GOING TO BE A BUMPY RIDE.
Question: At what point does sarcasm fit into the lam rim practice?
"Ya big baby?"
Oh dear. Good luck to you.
Humbly always,
TK
Oh for goodness sake!. I appreciate your efforts, ya big baby.
You have misinterpreted, I believe, what ZP was saying. I believe he meant that if I allow my exasperation with the forum members to make me leave, then I have lost. I am not sure what fifth column refers to.
Your exasperation makes you might want to leave? Perhaps you should tone it down so that we are not exasperated with you. Be polite and nice, and not sarcastic PLEASE. I don't see anyone provoking you, yet you are consistently rude.
Not that I am telling you to leave, but if you leave who loses? Answer: NOBODY.
Tulku Tradition is too dangerous. That is putting every single tulku down out there. Very bad.
One rotten apple in the orchard, and every single apple on the 300 acres of orchard are bad. What a waste. How illogical please.
"Will completely ignore the ravings of anyone who claims he is who you say he is,"---How do you know this tulku proclaimed himself? Why do you assume that? How do you know he was not recogzined by a senior Master or the Oracle of Dorje Shugden himself? Also ravings is a words meant for some kind of lunatic. THAT IS A PUT DOWN. THAT IS RUDE. THAT IS UNCALLED FOR. THAT IS WHAT I CONSIDERED A ATTACK. YOU ASSUME HE IS SELF PROCLAMED. THEN YOU ACCUSE HIM OF SELF RAVINGS. NEGATIVE ASSUMPTIONS ALL THE WAY.
Hi,
I think that crazy cloud makes alot of good points. I like dorjeshugden.com very much. There are lots of wonderful things to read and see, it's an encyclopedia of great knowledge but the website recently has become a little fanatical and preachy in my view and needs to learn to be a little more humble. Announcing the new reincarnation of Drekpa Gyalsten in that way was extremely unskillful! To be honest I felt very embarrassed reading it, it made me cringe! We live in progressive times, we should try to fit in with modern convention. You are playing right into the Dalai Lama's hands, they will read some of this stuff and then they will accuse DS supporters of be a cult and being extremist! Thats not what we want now, is it! This is only my opinion!
If i was the editor i would make 4 changes!
1) Do not announce re-incarnations!
2) Stop the leaflet drop
3) Remove the videos of Dorje Shugden oracles in trance
4) Remove any really wrathful pictures of dorje shugden like the one in the top corner of this page.
Maybe it's ok for us to see all this, but for people looking in from the outside i don't think it is a very good advertisement. One should be more skillful!
Regards
LR
Hi Tk,
I like the oracle tradition, but I can understand why people may think it is weird can't you?
I have not said that I think the oracle tradition is wrong, of course it has it's place.
I thought Geshe-las uncle was invited by Geshe-las students not Geshe-la.
"What is it you need for this supposed emanation?" That's a put down. What do you mean supposed? How do you know it's a supposed? Who is this person? You don't know. Who recognized this person? You don't know. So just keep quiet and wait. Who are you suppose to convince anyways?
thaimonk No one here is convinced by your ravings
Perhaps if you don't keep sinking down to your own level and be dharmic, I would listen more.
Crazycloud, you don't need the tulkus to make dharma done for it. People like you are doing a great job already. Namdrol left because of you before he/she even started.
"TTGIE will completely ignore the ravings of anyone who claims he is who you say he is," Another derogatory statement. You asked for one thing, I gave you two. Ravings? Ravings is used for someone who is insane, or a lunatic.
Why do you put this tulku down? Why do you say he is raving??? Do you know who he is? NO. Do you know if he has made any claims or some seniors recognized him??? You don't know. You assume and you rave.
Wake up and stop trying to win the argument. This is a forum. Everyone can clearly read what you wrote CRAZYCLOUD.
In the above you generously said "NO ONE SAID THE TULKU SYSTEM IS WRONG, DID THEY?" But in your other statement "PLEASE REALIZE THAT THE TULKU TRADITION IS TOO DANGEROUS IN THESE DEGENERATE TIMES. IT WILL BE THE END OF THOSE WHO DANCE WITH IT." What are you Nostradamus now?? In one line you insinuate thet tulku system is not wrong, then in another line you say it's too dangerous. You didn't even say some tulkus are dangerous, but you said the tulku tradition which is all tulkus. What a total put down to all tulkus.
The degenerate age didn't start this morning or 10 years ago, it's this whole cyle of time we are in now. And the tulku system of Tibet is like what 700 or 800 years old. So which is it? All tulkus from day one in Tibet are too dangerous or tulkus now are dangerous?? Wake up!! Since the first recognized tulku in Tibet (karmapa) it HAS BEEN THE DEGENERATE AGE ALL ALONG.
Your fixed mind based on your 'experience' of tulkus makes you put down all tulkus. Well not everyone had your experience with tulkus and not everyone will go along with what you rant non-stop about them. Think. Calm down forever and think.
Reject it or accept it\
It matters little
Opinions as we know
We All have at least one
The Protector Will Show
Any and All
What it means to be Divine
The Divine Lord
Lord Dorje Shugden'
King Protector of the Dharma
Our Friend
Our Protector
The One Who Calls You All
Make Peace and Make It Right
We have an Entire World
A World that needs the Dharma
Not a bunch of Children Arguing!
Please accept that this an open forum, it's upto the admin team to police things if things are getting out of hand and for the rest of us to try our best not to use harmful speech that might offend others! But sometimes some of just can't help being sarcastic, it's in our nature, lol
Hey Crazy Cloud!
I've been reading quietly all the posts for months and I am going to post this one time. Your posts have been consistently the most sarcastic. Are you what you pray to? Is Dorje Shugden like this? If not, STOP!!
You write long posts filled with spiteful negative words at anyone YET YOU GIVE VERY LITTLE KNOWLEDGE, EXPLANATIONS, OR INFORMATION. Your posts educate no one. Everything is opposition to any knowledge shared.
You know so little yet you knock down anyone who has something to share. You feel like your from E-sangha. Anything on Gelugs, the moderators shoots you down. Here, anything against CRAZY CLOUD YOU GET SHOT DOWN.
Well, this is my first post ever and last because people like you on the forum really make me disappointed. The Shugden group is small and you encourage so much friction WITHIN THE 'FAMILY'. SAD!
Your views are different, yet I don't see anyone attacking you, yet you constantly attack.
Getting out of here, I came here to learn not get EXASPERATED AT SO MUCH SARCASM. No more of this forum for me.
I would not publicly accept or reject that someone is a Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen/Dorje Shugden reincarnation, because I can't know. Even if they have the good word of a DS oracle or an earlier lama that it's true, I wouldn't accept it on that basis even. The reason is because even if the DS oracle or lama said it, that doesn't mean it was meant to be institutionalized or made the official view posed onto the general Gelug community. That is unless of course there is official documentation that they explicitly approve of officially institutionalizing it publicly.
We should accept there could be Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen/Dorje Shugden emanations, otherwise that would go against the speech of the lamas we accept like Trijang Rinpoche. However, there has not been an official Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen/Dorje Shugden reincarnation institution for over 300 years, so an attempt to pin down and make an official reincarnation of such is a deviation from precedence that requires authorization from a lama of a very high stature such as Trijang Rinpoche.
Hey Crazy Cloud!
I've been reading quietly all the posts for months and I am going to post this one time. Your posts have been consistently the most sarcastic. Are you what you pray to? Is Dorje Shugden like this? If not, STOP!!
You write long posts filled with spiteful negative words at anyone YET YOU GIVE VERY LITTLE KNOWLEDGE, EXPLANATIONS, OR INFORMATION. Your posts educate no one. Everything is opposition to any knowledge shared.
You know so little yet you knock down anyone who has something to share. You feel like your from E-sangha. Anything on Gelugs, the moderators shoots you down. Here, anything against CRAZY CLOUD YOU GET SHOT DOWN.
Well, this is my first post ever and last because people like you on the forum really make me disappointed. The Shugden group is small and you encourage so much friction WITHIN THE 'FAMILY'. SAD!
Your views are different, yet I don't see anyone attacking you, yet you constantly attack.
Getting out of here, I came here to learn not get EXASPERATED AT SO MUCH SARCASM. No more of this forum for me.
Dear Namdrol
I hope you will still stick around as there are many posts from other members which are not exasperating to read! I sincerely wish you well.
Crazy Cloud, too bad, and I'm sorry for you that Namdrol left when he could have learnt quite a bit from this forum.
concern
DSFriend
The hatred against Tulku system is un-Dharmic, view of an unbeliever. It is against what is written in the Lamrim! If a person do not believe in the Nirmanakaya form then forget about the existence of the Buddhas whom we cannot see. THEY ARE ALL ONE! It's irrational to pick and choose what we like or is convenient to fit into our self made, picture perfect Buddhism.
Can you please do something about your sarcasm, its destroying the forum, you and your friends (esp. crazywisdom, emptymountains) who, like Honeydakini said use "the thats just me, take me as I am, you don't have to like me" argument.
You choose to be buddhist, but your attitude is a relfection of your Dharma practice. You and your buddies.[/quote]
Saracasm is part of your nature? I don't believe, prove to me that sarcasm is permanent and unchangeable in your mindstream and people like myself and others won't get p#$#ed off with your attitude.
Selfishness is your nature, a deep selfishness and a deep desire to want recognition, want attention!
(snip snip snip)
Why do you want others to suffer from your sarcastic words?
Show everyone where in the Lamrim where it says these habits are your nature, and cannot be changed. Because it still is part of you, then it still means your not into buddhism for Dharma, your still fixated on some part of you, you think is permanent.
Yep! It's pretty funny cc!
Just delete your post like I do and start all over again.
I will second LineageHolder in what was said several pages ago: that this announcement was, i believe supposed to be something to rejoice in but people have once again become very snippy
Why not wait and see if the proof is in the pudding?
There is so much self cherishing and grasping of our opinion that I cannot see into the room.
Wait until He appears and then decide.
Whatever happened to patience?
Once again, I go back to my point made in other threads about how it is not what we are saying to each other but HOW we are saying it. For a moment, I read through the posts as if I was a complete stranger logging onto the site for the first time. It made me incredibly sad to realise that THIS is how Dorje Shugden practitioners talk - sarcastic, bitey and condescending.
It would help, if we just spent a few mini seconds just to think about how we are coming across.
I have spoken with many monks here at Shar Gaden this week about this topic and I must say that almost all of the monks do seem genuinely intrigued. Many are like me in feeling that if the incarnation was recognized by one of the authorized Dorje Shugden oracles, or by a Lama such as Trijang Rinpoche or Zong Rinpoche years back, that is reason enough to be open to this. After all, in the begining none of us had any 'proof' of the existence of Protectors and such, so we had to establish the Lama as a reliable source first.
Maybe this a simplistic approach, but it suits me and my practice just fine.
1. Of course the 'oracle-things' can be explained. If this cannot be explained, the only conclusion IS NOT "THAT IT IS A CULTURAL THING OF TIBETANS and HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH DHARMA".
TRIJANG RINPOCHE AND ZONG RINPOCHE CONSULTED ORACLES ALWAYS AND EVERYTHING THEY DID WAS DHARMA FROM BEGINNING TO END. EVEN BREATHING FOR THEM WAS DHARMA. SO IF YOU DOUBT THAT, YOU HAVE TO DOUBT OUR WHOLE LINEAGE. Do you think Trijang/Zong Rinpoche will engage in activities that have no meaning and no relations to dharma? I DON'T THINK SO EVER. NO DEBATE.
It is your particular like and dislike due to ignorance perhaps that you have distorted thinking of certain very beneficial practices such as oracles or oracular practices. The oracles can be very useful.
Western society relied on oracles and the like before the advent of Christianity. With Christianity, many practices such as the arts of divining, tarot cards, taking trances, reading the future, ouija boards all became labelled as evil and should be violently stopped. Violent and aggressive campaigns were set throughout Europe and the Americas to abolish these practices. We are the modern day results of that destruction in excluding anything labelled magical. Hence things like oracles are seen as superstitious, or invalid. That is the legacy of the advent of Christianity.
The Delphic oracles with their famous Pythias were sought over the ancient world for their very clear prophecies for hundred of years. Destroyed by Alexander so he can be assured no one else will know what was told to him. How selfish. In order to assure his victory.
2. It would take many pages and hours to type out what I have learned at the feets of 8 eminent lamas for the last decades to explain. I will condense very short. If you understand, fine. If you don't it's obvious then why you're 'against' it.
3. I would recommend to you to read 'Wheel of Protection' from 'Exile From the Land of Snows' to get an overview of how oracles work. Dorje Shugden and Nechung oracles operate somewhat differently, but generally same. Please do your homework, read, research, contemplate then speak to elucidate to others to clear their misunderstandings and ignorance. After all dharma is the highest form of giving. Before giving go get it.
See Here. Please read thoroughly: [url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1332[/url]
4. Simple story: When I was in Dharamsala 14 years back, an American backpacker lady fell off the hills there and was lost for around two days. Her friends, local police, and some Tibetans scoured lower upper dharamsala for her. Could not be found. I went to see the Yudroma oracle for my personal reasons as were a few other people for their questions also. At that time, another group had consulted her out of desperation. The American friends were very desperate. The lady oracle went into trance with the help of the monk from Gyuto Tantric College as Gyuto Tantric College often consult her( Yudroma is their protective deity). Yes the renowned Gelug Tantric college goes to her to consult often. When Yudroma entered the oracle ( i witnessed several times), she gave the location, place and fall clearly. She also said the lady is still alive but must get to her quickly. Within another half a day, following her instructions they found the backpacker who had broken a leg ( maybe wrist) and was stuck in a precarious location. The Americans were dumbfounded.
That was one of my first personal experiences with a recognized oracle with many more to come. Observed I did and convinced I am today.
5. Our bodies are just a shell in which our sublte consciousness temporarily abides. You can leave it and enter at will if you have practiced correctly. Ra Lotsawa and son were well known for that. Hence, since it is a shell, any beings can enter and abide including yourself. Thererfore possessions of the evil nature is definitely possible as the Vajra Yogini Kakkoo (ritual) text is a remedy for that. Possessions, ghosts, spirits, psychics, clairvoyants do exist previously and currently. The stories abound in the bios of Heruka lineage Mahasiddhas.
We can temporarily abide elsewhere or within an object and let a higher force use our bodies to speak, express, move or do whatever actions that are necessary. Hence Dorje Shugden and Kache Marpo can definitely enter such a 'ready' body. When we do the invitations for example in Lama Chopa and ask the deities to abide, it can be inviting them to enter a statue or thangka we are consecrating. They abide at our request to become a merit field not that they have nowhere to go.
Hence if they can enter a statue and abide, why not a human? Both are made of the four physical composite elements suitable for a consciousness to abide in. Of course there's the formless also, but need not apply here for now.
In the Tara ritual, you ask Tara to come forth, abide in her image. Then we make offerings, requests, mantras, prayers, etc and at the end, you ask her to remain in this image by scattering dried rice/flowers with appropriate recitation. Then she abides. When you invite Dorje Shugden to enter an oracle, you recite the invitational liturgy at the beginning of our Dorje Shugden Kangsol. If you wish the peaceful to come, the oracle will wear monk robes, yellow chogo/Namjar, and Pandit's hat. Then Dorje Shugden will enter in a peaceful form to talk, known as Dulzin. If wrathful is required, then oracle will wear the full robes with flags, boots, weapons, etc. This energy cannot stay long, or talk much as it is in fierce form. Old oracles in their 70's who limp or are on walking sticks when taking trance of the wrathful form, can leap, bend swords, 'dance' and whole body convulses with the energy of the deity-Shugden. That is amazing, what is more is, someone like Kuten Lama (Geshe-la's uncle) never studied much, but in trance as Dulzin he can give long (2-3 hours) discourses citing perfectly from Panchen Sonam Drakpa, Nagarjuna, Chandrakirti, Dharmakirti, etc's texts and give you page numbers and cross reference points. He can give oral transmissions, initiations, compose texts on the spot as I have witnessed. He is elucidating among scholars, high incarnates such as Zong Rinpoche, Zemey Rinpoche, Dagom Rinpoche, the abbots, Geshes etc. He can refute with them or even debate if the occasion calls for it. Out of trance, Kuten Lama is a nice old man whose knowledge of dharma is that of little higher than the typical Tibetan laity. Certainly he couldn't fool the masters in Gaden for 30 years.
He must have gone into trance thousands of times since Buxa when he was officially approved as genuine by H.H. Trijang Dorje Chang. Leaping around and bending swords is neat, but lesser spirits can also do the same. What is amazing and convincing is what comes out of the mouth of the oracle time and time tested again. Even things you asked Dorje Shugden through another oracle ten years back, when taking trance of a 'new' oracle he can recount and remind you. It has happened to me. I consulted Shugden through Sera's oracle, then much later the Gaden oracle. While in trance Dorje Shugden reminded me of what he said precisely and accurately what he told me ten years back through a completely different person, different setting, different translators, different monastery. Mind you, what he told me was very intimate and very applicable to me. He has even indicated clearly to me what my gurus have told me in private- he reminded me of their vajra commands. This happened to me. I do not need you or anyone else's confirmation as the advice was timely, very helpful and I saw the results. His advices and dharma talks will blow your mind. You feel you are in the presence of someone very old, grand and from another time. But then that cannot be used here, as that is subjective-my feelings of him that it.
6. Lama Tsongkapa's Guru Yoga practice and Guru Rinpoche's practice are not in the sutras or tantras from India. They were not taught in Pre-Tibet-Buddhist India. Due to the many enlightened activities of enlightened beings after the Buddha, of course that is possible. Buddha Shakyamuni cannot be the only enlightened one, otherwise the dharma is false. But by seeing the many attainments gained by many practitioners over 600 hundred years, we know Guru Yoga of Tsongkapa is valid. The close lineage of the Mahamudra instructions that are practiced by Tsongkapa's disciples are also not the sutras and tantras of Buddha Shakyamuni/Vajradhara. Nyingmas rely heavily on Secret treasure texts or Termas never spoken about and guru Rinpoche's mantra is nowhere to be found in the original sutras and tantras yet has created many realized beings within the Nyingma, Kagyu and Sakyas.
Yet Guru Rinpoche's initiation, practices, rites, rituals, images form the central core of the Nyingma lineage. Tsongkapa's Guru Yoga practice was revealed by Manjushri directly to Tsongkapa. Hence if something is not in the sutras do not disqualify their authenticity nor benefits. In this case the qualifications of the author is very important.
Thai Buddhists do not recognize Yamantaka, Heruka nor Vajra Yogini. They do not have the lineage nor believe that it originated from the perfect Buddha. Not finding something somewhere can lead to endless unnecessary debates. Hence, for us the author is very important. Dorje Shugden is not mentioned in the sutras. Dakpo Rinpoche named the 'village lama' by the 13th Dalai Lama 'left' his body and transported to Tushita to receive the practice of Dorje Shugden. So today if someone was to say that was their soure of teachings, this forum would be alive with snide sarcastic posts. So why is it we can believe Dakpo Rinpoche. Just because it happened 50, 100, 200 or whatever years ago? If we don't believe him, then our whole Dorje Shugden lineage is a lie. Then why are we even here. The origins of our Dorje Shugden practice, Heruka, Vajra Yogini, etc are all from 'magical' beginnings. Yet we believe and trust. Why not oracles? Why not Shugden entering a qualified oracle consecrated and authenticized by HH kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang the heart son of Pabongka who in turn is the heart son of Dakpo Rinpoche? Contemplate.
Not everything has to be in the sutras yet we still need a lineage no matter how magical it's origins. Western culture claims to not accept anything magical but more practical. Hogwash. Much of western religions and our Buddhism is awash with 'magical, mystical and obscure' beginnings yet we still practice and proclaim logic. Logic by us is very limited. We cannot take full refuge in our logic after certain point.
Heruka revealed his tantra by teaching on Mt Kailash to Vajra Yogini then to human first. How to verify that? Yet many have received attainments from Her practice. So we need to see results to ascertain validity of origins in this case. Many have received benefits from Dorje Shugden's oracles for the last 350 years including myself many times over.
How many scholars and masters rely on Asanga's 'Ornament of Clear Realizations' given to him by Maitreya Buddha in Tushita. Doesn't that sound wierd in today's terms? How about if I wrote a text and told you Tara told me the contents. It would be psychiatric time. Well why do we accept Asanga's assertions coming from such a source? Because we rely on the author and mostly the benefits in this case. Nagarjuna retrieved how many wisdom texts from the Nagas hidden away? Show me a naga. Have you seen one? Hence validity in Tibetan Buddhism is not stemmed only from the original sutras alone. There will be more teachings arising in the future logically speaking to suit the various aptitudes. Lam Rim made it's first appearance by Atisha's composition. Before that it was unheard of. Yet it is our core practice now having been passed down and further versions written of course the latest by Pabongka. Oracular practices do not need to be in the original sutras/tantras to validate their authenticity and applicability for dharma practitioners of this age, time and circumstances.
I hope this sincerely help you. I have spent over 6 solid hours writing the various explanations on this thread. I didn't write to convince you but to open your mind to things that perhaps are very foreign and at first unacceptable to you. I hope you will investigate further as knowledge is knowledge. We carry that into our future lives. As Shantideva says, there's no limit to our minds ability to comprehend.
I wish you luck and I humbly hope you will accept for others' sake, if not your own, practices that may benefit them by not discarding due to ignorance. All practices by our lineage lamas should be respected and feel how fortunate we are to even hear about them. Our lineage lamas are free of faults, hence their practices, teachings, traditions, manners should be respected even if some cannot be applied now due to degenerate times, but they should not be seen as something Tibetan and hence culturally beneficial only.
TK
Like what Protector's Champion says - why not wait til we see who this incarnation is before we judge?
Why are some people so negative? Whatever news we receive, we can either take it on a neutral, negative or positive way. Some people in this forum, like me, are happy about the news. Even if you don't really like the news, do you need to put it down, especially as some of you have said that there is not enough information for you to judge? ....
I have spoken with many monks here at Shar Gaden this week about this topic and I must say that almost all of the monks do seem genuinely intrigued. Many are like me in feeling that if the incarnation was recognized by one of the authorized Dorje Shugden oracles, or by a Lama such as Trijang Rinpoche or Zong Rinpoche years back, that is reason enough to be open to this. After all, in the begining none of us had any 'proof' of the existence of Protectors and such, so we had to establish the Lama as a reliable source first.
Maybe this a simplistic approach, but it suits me and my practice just fine.
So should we conclude from this that you and the monks of Shar Ganden don't really believe in the tulku either ?
I have spoken with many monks here at Shar Gaden this week about this topic and I must say that almost all of the monks do seem genuinely intrigued. Many are like me in feeling that if the incarnation was recognized by one of the authorized Dorje Shugden oracles, or by a Lama such as Trijang Rinpoche or Zong Rinpoche years back, that is reason enough to be open to this. After all, in the begining none of us had any 'proof' of the existence of Protectors and such, so we had to establish the Lama as a reliable source first.
Maybe this a simplistic approach, but it suits me and my practice just fine.
So should we conclude from this that you and the monks of Shar Ganden don't really believe in the tulku either ?
I used the word intrigued to mean interested in learning more. Most of the monks I have talked with seem very open to the news.
I have spoken with many monks here at Shar Gaden this week about this topic and I must say that almost all of the monks do seem genuinely intrigued. Many are like me in feeling that if the incarnation was recognized by one of the authorized Dorje Shugden oracles, or by a Lama such as Trijang Rinpoche or Zong Rinpoche years back, that is reason enough to be open to this. After all, in the begining none of us had any 'proof' of the existence of Protectors and such, so we had to establish the Lama as a reliable source first.
Maybe this a simplistic approach, but it suits me and my practice just fine.
It's interesting that monks are more open to the possibility of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen's incarnation than lay people. Perhaps the monks who have a centuries old tradition of identifying tulkus via oracles and high lamas know something laypeople don't?
Next week the Summer Festival is starting ;D ;D ;D I am counting the days .....
We will meet many Tulkus ::), Buddhas ;D , Bodhisattvas ;D , Protectors ;D , nice people ;D ;D, good food, nice English weather, nice camping ground.
If you want to meet all these nice people, come to the Summer Festival 8)
Does the Tulku have the ability to read and understand scriptures in Tibetan?
Now, the unmistaken incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen has returned among us.
He has been incarnating continuously over the past few hundred years, quietly preserving and propagating the lineage of Lama Tsongkhapa and his most significant work, the Lamrim Chenmo.
Recognised by oracles and high lamas a few decades ago, the current incarnation continues to live quietly among us, awaiting the most beneficial time to emerge, to openly continue this legacy of incredible deeds.
His time is coming soon.
His return will cause an explosion at the heart of the Tibetan Buddhist world, righting a great ‘wrong’ that was done hundreds of years ago.
His return marks the culmination of an orchestrated sequence of events which began over 600 years ago during the time of Dulzin.
His return heralds a new age of Buddhist renaissance, where Dorje Shugden will rise to the fore, unveiling his true nature as the greatest Dharma Protector for our time.
The final episode in this elaborate epic reveals how the highest Lamas have each played their part to propel Lama Tsongkhapa’s lineage to its highest peak.
QuoteHis return heralds a new age of Buddhist renaissance, where Dorje Shugden will rise to the fore, unveiling his true nature as the greatest Dharma Protector for our time.
The final episode in this elaborate epic reveals how the highest Lamas have each played their part to propel Lama Tsongkhapa’s lineage to its highest peak.
OK, this is concerning. If the story is going to be all of these problems people have been suffering due to this problem was all part of some divine plan for the glorification of this person, that is not going to be acceptable.
Why is a "divine plan" not acceptable? Is it because of its judeo-christian background that BUDDHISTS find it not of their 'taste'?
Sorry to say this, but Shakyamuni's enlightenment is a divine plan, Maitreya coming to the rescue after Shakyamuni is a divine plan, Dorje Shugden becoing a protector is a divine plan. Many Bodhisattva have made their vows to come back again and again, that's the "divine plan".
I have spoken with many monks here at Shar Gaden this week about this topic and I must say that almost all of the monks do seem genuinely intrigued. Many are like me in feeling that if the incarnation was recognized by one of the authorized Dorje Shugden oracles, or by a Lama such as Trijang Rinpoche or Zong Rinpoche years back, that is reason enough to be open to this. After all, in the begining none of us had any 'proof' of the existence of Protectors and such, so we had to establish the Lama as a reliable source first.
Maybe this a simplistic approach, but it suits me and my practice just fine.
So should we conclude from this that you and the monks of Shar Ganden don't really believe in the tulku either ?
I used the word intrigued to mean interested in learning more. Most of the monks I have talked with seem very open to the news.
Dear Tenzin Sungrab,
Definitely the monks would be intrigued. The very top senior monks would know who it is for sure, but wouldn't reveal for safety reasons. The persons who recognized this incarnation are top lamas and you can be sure the Dorje Shugden oracle has approved. It's just not time to reveal yet I got wind.
Dorje Shugden monasteries will accept with open arms for sure. With the seal of recognition from reknowned dorje shugden lineage lamas and oracle combined, it will be a great incarnation to spread the lineage of lama tsongkapa. As you said, and I agree, the existence of Dorje Shugden that we so believe in came from the recognition of the lamas also. Your 'simplistic' approach is valid and many of our lineages/practices/tantras sprung from this seemingly simplistic approach. Thanks for confirming what I know of the monks interest in this.
TK
Next week the Summer Festival is starting ;D ;D ;D I am counting the days .....
We will meet many Tulkus ::), Buddhas ;D , Bodhisattvas ;D , Protectors ;D , nice people ;D ;D, good food, nice English weather, nice camping ground.
If you want to meet all these nice people, come to the Summer Festival 8)
where's this summer festival, Godi? :)
just a few clicks away.
[url]http://kadampafestivals.org/summer/[/url]
In former times, people had to undertake very dangerous travels to meet dharma. Nowadays we do some clicks on our netbooks.
We are very fortunate, we are like in pure land. Eveywhere is dharma!!
Next week the Summer Festival is starting ;D ;D ;D I am counting the days .....
We will meet many Tulkus ::), Buddhas ;D , Bodhisattvas ;D , Protectors ;D , nice people ;D ;D, good food, nice English weather, nice camping ground.
If you want to meet all these nice people, come to the Summer Festival 8)
where's this summer festival, Godi? :)
This is great news and I'm very happy to hear :) Gosh, a year rolls around fast doesn't it- time for another summer festival. I have never personally had the chance to visit the festival. The last time i went up to the centre was just before the festival last year and i heard that they were expecting 5000 people that summer! Does anyone know what the plans are for this summer? Is Geshela giving any DS initiation or teachings? It'd be nice to hear of the news :)
Hi TS,
Thanks for the link. Good to see all the happy faces in spite of the adverse situation they are in. I rejoice with the good works done by the sangha at the monastery.
We all are intrigued by this new information, you're not the only ones. We are happy and intrigued at the same time ! I'm intrigued with an earnest prayer that may this be true....
I will definitely keep a close watch on this site for further news and confirmation.
I have spoken with many monks here at Shar Gaden this week about this topic and I must say that almost all of the monks do seem genuinely intrigued. Many are like me in feeling that if the incarnation was recognized by one of the authorized Dorje Shugden oracles, or by a Lama such as Trijang Rinpoche or Zong Rinpoche years back, that is reason enough to be open to this. After all, in the begining none of us had any 'proof' of the existence of Protectors and such, so we had to establish the Lama as a reliable source first.
Maybe this a simplistic approach, but it suits me and my practice just fine.
Wouldn't it have been better to tell us when you actually knew who the real re-incarnation is instead of working everyone up in a frenzy?Sorry to say theloneranger, this is really a dumb statement. There is always a time and place for something to be made known so that there is no detrimental effects to people involved. Needless to say, the incarnation cannot be made known now for obvious reasons.
Tibetan Buddhism is so corrupted these days that no one can be believed! Better to throw away the Tulku reincarnation system because it stinks! It's outdated, corrupted and has no place in the progressive modern society! To many people want to put there grubby fingers in the pie!
One should be chosen to be a leader of men if they have the correct skills and abilities! Not chosen because of there status or title!
We can see from the example of the 14th Dalai Lama that the Tibetan System for choosing reincarnations is corrupt! The whole process is so open to corruption it's just not feasible!
I mean Steven Seagal was made a Tulku! How completely adsurd is that!
I am a newbie and have just started following this forum. I noticed that there are those who are so happy to know that Dorje Shugdan is alive and amongst us and those who have doubts. This forum is a good place for debates. However, I find that some are true Buddhist practitioners who post comments in a very logical and informative manner and some “Buddhists practitioners” who just blasted empty words sarcastically and rudely for the sake of winning. How embarrassing to call oneself a Buddhist and yet think and behave in such manner!
Whether Dorje Shugdan is alive is yet to be known. The day will arrive when truth prevails. So for now, for those who have doubts, stop bad mouthing Dorje Shugdan as it will lead you nowhere except a rebirth in the lower realms. We are just lay people; we have no right to judge who is right or who is wrong. It is very bad karma to speak badly of the lamas, the dharma, the sangha or any holy beings.
I am grateful and thankful that the web team had put in so much effort and countless hours to set up a great site for a newbie like me to learn more about Dorje Shugdan.
I am sure everyone is still friends, because beyond everything else, however opinions differ, the heart should still remain Dharmic.
Have a good evening, everyone?
I look forward everyday to the return of the Dharma King. How should we all usher His return?
I look forward everyday to the return of the Dharma King. How should we all usher His return?
We usher his return by
1) keeping good samaya with our Guru and Dorje Shugden.
2) be informed about the history, lineage, benefits of Dorje Shugden and his practice so we can explain to people who are not so familiar with this issue.
3) practising harmony with people around us, as always advised by Dorje Shugden.
I look forward everyday to the return of the Dharma King. How should we all usher His return?
We usher his return by
1) keeping good samaya with our Guru and Dorje Shugden.
2) be informed about the history, lineage, benefits of Dorje Shugden and his practice so we can explain to people who are not so familiar with this issue.
3) practising harmony with people around us, as always advised by Dorje Shugden.
I cannot refrain from saying what I think
I cannot abide by the forum's intent
Thanks for tolerating me all this time
I cannot delete my topic without deleting everyone's post
I cannot Accept that Dorje Shugden and Kundun
Are Working Together as Real
It makes no sense even in cosmic time
Goodbye my friends, I hope you find what you need
I am the same monk that slipped a piece of paper into the 13th Dalia Lama's Slipper
For my infraction, I was flayed alive for several long and anguished days.
"With regards to this good news about Dorje Shugden's incarnation at sight. This to me sounds like the claims of some over enthusiastic Evangalist. Or somebody trying to play the Jehovah wittness. Is it not understood,through the testimonies of the lineage masters that Dorje Shugden is a protector with links within samsara to be in proximity with humans. Secondly,ones own Guru is understood to be the amalgamation of all Gurus,Deities and protectors. Which means that one's Guru is manifestation of Dorje Shugden per se. While I am not outrightly implying likewise that there cannot be a Tulku. Dorje Shugden would not incapacitate all the different Gurus by appearing himself as the ultimate messiah. This is not the purpouse of DS as a Dharmapala. He wants people to sincerely adhere to the Lamrim and, there is nothing higher in the beginning and the completion of the path by sincerely relying on ones Spiritual Guide."
Really!
Really! I doubt anyone is waiting for anything
You'd have to confirm with the Oracle
My last life was as a Mongolian
"That all you need to know"
Who are You?
Besides your avatar?
I'd tell you to take a flying leap
But that is not allowed.
I'd tell you to take a flying leap
But that is not allowed.
Just for the record, I am only as I am, Thomas David Canada
I do not pretend to be anyone else.
Certainly nothing other than myself
A Grunt for the Dharma
Actually there's no such thing as free speech. With speech comes responsibility for its effects. That's why in the refuge vows, there are four vows related to speech - more than for mind or body. The refuge vows of the Speech are Divisive Speech, Harsh Words, Idle Chatter, Lying. If our speech is divisive or harsh, we have broken our vows. If we have the intention to hurt someone with our speech, we have broken our vows. FYI: From Wikipedia, the definition of sarcasm - Sarcasm is “a sharp, bitter, or cutting expression or remark; a bitter jibe or taunt.” From Dictionary.com - In sarcasm, ridicule or mockery is used harshly, often crudely and contemptuously, for destructive purposes.
Also, why would it have been necessary to keep this incarnations identity a secret if he were identified twenty years ago? There were no death threats then, no violence, and many great Dorje Shugden Lamas had been reborn and recognized without incident. Things only actually began to heat up mid-nineties.
Does the story that this so called Tulku's identity was kept secret for safety reasons make sense?
Also, why would it have been necessary to keep this incarnations identity a secret if he were identified twenty years ago? There were no death threats then, no violence, and many great Dorje Shugden Lamas had been reborn and recognized without incident. Things only actually began to heat up mid-nineties.
Exactly.
And if it's not yet the right time to reveal his identity why start a thread like this in the first place?QuoteDoes the story that this so called Tulku's identity was kept secret for safety reasons make sense?
Not at all and that's why it's likely this whole TDG story is fiction.
I find it strange that so many are so willing to make up their minds before more information is available. The monks here at Shar Gaden seem to see this news with a more optimistic view. None that I have talked to have made up their minds, one way or another, before hearing more. I will follow their example.
I also go along with the brave sangha of Shar Gaden, Tenzin Sungrab and Thaimonk.I find it strange that so many are so willing to make up their minds before more information is available. The monks here at Shar Gaden seem to see this news with a more optimistic view. None that I have talked to have made up their minds, one way or another, before hearing more. I will follow their example.I agree with you Tenzin Sungrab. I agree with the monks. Just be optimistic without making up your minds. I have followed their example and your's. Thank you for the sane logic.
Incarnations can be recognized many decades later for seen and unseen reasons. Definitely possible.
Whatever you may think that there was no controversy with the Shugden issue WITHIN THE TIBETAN communities prior to the 90's, there were already in the late 80's.
But the actual line of TULKU DRAKPA GYELTSEN incarnations HIMSELF WAS BANNED hundreds of years ago.
I also go along with the brave sangha of Shar Gaden, Tenzin Sungrab and Thaimonk.I find it strange that so many are so willing to make up their minds before more information is available. The monks here at Shar Gaden seem to see this news with a more optimistic view. None that I have talked to have made up their minds, one way or another, before hearing more. I will follow their example.I agree with you Tenzin Sungrab. I agree with the monks. Just be optimistic without making up your minds. I have followed their example and your's. Thank you for the sane logic.
TK
I agree with the monks. Just be optimistic without making up your minds. I have followed their example and your's. Thank you for the sane logic.
I find it strange that so many are so willing to make up their minds before more information is available.
I find it strange that so many are so willing to make up their minds before more information is available. The monks here at Shar Gaden seem to see this news with a more optimistic view. None that I have talked to have made up their minds, one way or another, before hearing more. I will follow their example.
Doubt is fine. Criticism added to doubt and sarcasm to bring the point across is not.
tk
I really find this appropriate. Since everything we practice comes from the Sangha. If they are open minded, then we should follow suit. It is wonderful to be open. Since you have given us direct feedback that Shar Gaden Monks are open and do not criticize, it is truly a dharma practitioners way of reacting. Thanks.
Buddhas, Bodhisattvas, attained beings all can incarnate again and again in thousands of forms simultaneously. Whether humans ban them or not, they are not bound by the dualistic laws we uphold here.
tk
Also, why would it have been necessary to keep this incarnations identity a secret if he were identified twenty years ago? There were no death threats then, no violence, and many great Dorje Shugden Lamas had been reborn and recognized without incident. Things only actually began to heat up mid-nineties.
Exactly.
And if it's not yet the right time to reveal his identity why start a thread like this in the first place?QuoteDoes the story that this so called Tulku's identity was kept secret for safety reasons make sense?
Not at all and that's why it's likely this whole TDG story is fiction.
You know, beyond Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, there are very qualified teachers, masters, incarnations and lineage holders ALSO.. So whatever the reasons, why STILL criticize?? Just read it and be still. Wait for the outcome. You may not even be alive when revealed who he is. Why does it bother you so much unless there are other undercurrents you may only know.
The Current 9th Kaka Jetsun Dampa (born in 1932) residing in Dharamsala was recognized OPENLY only in September 1991s as the supreme incarnate teacher of Mongolia.. He was 59 years old already. Now he is 78 years old this year. Just think, he was only officially and more importantly OPENLY RECOGNIZED 55 years after his first and quiet recognition by the Regent Reting Rinpoche at the age of four. No one bothered or knew about him before September 1991. It was hush-hush. Incarnations can be recognized many decades later for seen and unseen reasons. Definitely possible.
Installation of the Kaka Jestun Dampa line of reincarnations was banned in Mongolia since 1929. Only a small handful knew who he was for decades and it was kept a secret. But recognizing him many decades back would of upset the Mongolian Govt then a hard line Stalinist-communist regime. Now Mongolia is open to this and hence recognized and living in Dharamsala. But being the current incarnation is Tibetan and not Mongolian, there are still political issues.
Whatever you may think that there was no controversy with the Shugden issue WITHIN THE TIBETAN communities prior to the 90's, there were already in the late 80's. It just didn't go full blown yet all over the world.
The Geshes and Tulkus around the world greeted the first news of Dorje Shugden not in Dalai Lama's favour with shock/confusion BUT just kept practicing. In fact the problems already started in the late 70's when the Dalai Lama gave up his personal practice. He just didn't blow it up. For him to give up the practice while Trijang Rinpoche was alive was a clear indication of trouble ahead. There were no death threats, or violence with the Dorje Shugden LAMAS. But the actual line of TULKU DRAKPA GYELTSEN incarnations HIMSELF WAS BANNED hundreds of years ago. Incarnate Dorje Shugden lamas and Drakpa Gyeltsen himself are VERY DRAMATICALLY DIFFERENT. The Dalai Lama already believed Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen was a negative spirit when he gave up the practice in the late 70's. Wouldn't be prudent if Drakpa Gyeltsen was recognized two decades ago.
Since Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen was banned by the Tibetan Govt, it would not serve any monastery's benefit if they enthroned him decades back. They do not wish to bring trouble upon themselves. Since the Dalai Lama gave up his Shugden practice in the late 70's, it would not be a smart move for any monastery to say, well here's Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen back in our Monastery. All Gelug Monasteries back then were in alignment with the Tibetan Govt and Dalai Lama.
THAIMONK
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"Thus, when the present Ninth Khalkha Jetsun Dhampa's incarnation was recognized, at the age of four, by Reting Rinpoche, the Regent in Lhasa, as well as other high lamas and the state oracles, his identity was kept secret due to Stalin's influence and oppression in Mongolia. The country vanished from sight, customs and traditions were buried and lost until the five visits of the Dalai Lama in recent years; the last time was in August 1995 when he gave the Kalachakra Initiation.
The Ninth Khalkha Jetsun Dhampa was born at Tromtsikang and then moved to Shol, just below the Potala. His father, Lobsang Jampal, was from Phenpo and his mother, Yangchen was from Kham. At the age of seven, he entered Gomang College, Drepung Monastery, as a simple monk where he studied philosophy for fourteen years, up to the level of Madhyamika. At Gomang he studied primarily with a teacher from Mongolia named Geshe Thupten Nyima. He received his dharma lineages from His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
His Holiness the Panchen Rinpoche, Gyabje Trijang Rinpoche, Gyabje Ling Rinpoche, and Gyabje Lhatsun Rinpoche were his teachers in the Gelukpa lineage. H.H. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche was his teacher in the Nyingma lineage; Kalu Rinpoche was his teacher in the Kagyu lineage; and Sakya Tenzin Rinpoche was his teacher in the Sakya lineage. At the age of 21, he left Gomang College and Drepung to engage in a series of Chod meditations, living the life of a yogi, while on pilgrimage to the holy sites of Tibet.
At the age of 25, he gave back his monastic vows, and then went to stay at Ganden Phunstok Ling, established by his predecesor Taranatha, until the age of 29 when the Chinese invasion forced him into exile, along with hundreds of thousands of Tibetans.
In India, he lived with his family in Darjeeling and Mysore, until 1981, and later in Madhya Pradesh in central India until 1990, quietly serving as lama for the Tibetan community in exile throughout that time. During this period of time Rinpoche did many meditations and gave public teachings in the Tibetan settlements several times a year.
Then, in 1991, with the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the new-found religious freedom felt in Mongolia, many Mongolian monasteries sent their abbots and lamas and ministers to India to request inquiry of the Dalai Lama in Dharamsala about the possible location of the Ninth Khalkha Jetsun Dampa. Did His Holiness know where he was, who he is, and could the Dalai Lama recognize him for the peoples of Mongolia?
It was at that time, through the Religious Office of the Tibetan Government in Exile, that the Dalai Lama gave the official stamp of recognition and acknowledgement of the Ninth Khalkha Jetsun Dhampa, the spiritual head of Buddhism in Mongolia. He moved to Dharamsala to be closer to His Holiness the Dalai Lama, and in 1991, he was officially enthroned as the Ninth Khalkha Jetsun Dhampa, amid great and joyous celebration."
--cited from: [url]http://www.jetsundhampa.com/[/url]
Also, why would it have been necessary to keep this incarnations identity a secret if he were identified twenty years ago? There were no death threats then, no violence, and many great Dorje Shugden Lamas had been reborn and recognized without incident. Things only actually began to heat up mid-nineties.
Exactly.
And if it's not yet the right time to reveal his identity why start a thread like this in the first place?QuoteDoes the story that this so called Tulku's identity was kept secret for safety reasons make sense?
Not at all and that's why it's likely this whole TDG story is fiction.
You know, beyond Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, there are very qualified teachers, masters, incarnations and lineage holders ALSO.. So whatever the reasons, why STILL criticize?? Just read it and be still. Wait for the outcome. You may not even be alive when revealed who he is. Why does it bother you so much unless there are other undercurrents you may only know.
The Current 9th Kaka Jetsun Dampa (born in 1932) residing in Dharamsala was recognized OPENLY only in September 1991s as the supreme incarnate teacher of Mongolia.. He was 59 years old already. Now he is 78 years old this year. Just think, he was only officially and more importantly OPENLY RECOGNIZED 55 years after his first and quiet recognition by the Regent Reting Rinpoche at the age of four. No one bothered or knew about him before September 1991. It was hush-hush. Incarnations can be recognized many decades later for seen and unseen reasons. Definitely possible.
Installation of the Kaka Jestun Dampa line of reincarnations was banned in Mongolia since 1929. Only a small handful knew who he was for decades and it was kept a secret. But recognizing him many decades back would of upset the Mongolian Govt then a hard line Stalinist-communist regime. Now Mongolia is open to this and hence recognized and living in Dharamsala. But being the current incarnation is Tibetan and not Mongolian, there are still political issues.
Whatever you may think that there was no controversy with the Shugden issue WITHIN THE TIBETAN communities prior to the 90's, there were already in the late 80's. It just didn't go full blown yet all over the world.
The Geshes and Tulkus around the world greeted the first news of Dorje Shugden not in Dalai Lama's favour with shock/confusion BUT just kept practicing. In fact the problems already started in the late 70's when the Dalai Lama gave up his personal practice. He just didn't blow it up. For him to give up the practice while Trijang Rinpoche was alive was a clear indication of trouble ahead. There were no death threats, or violence with the Dorje Shugden LAMAS. But the actual line of TULKU DRAKPA GYELTSEN incarnations HIMSELF WAS BANNED hundreds of years ago. Incarnate Dorje Shugden lamas and Drakpa Gyeltsen himself are VERY DRAMATICALLY DIFFERENT. The Dalai Lama already believed Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen was a negative spirit when he gave up the practice in the late 70's. Wouldn't be prudent if Drakpa Gyeltsen was recognized two decades ago.
Since Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen was banned by the Tibetan Govt, it would not serve any monastery's benefit if they enthroned him decades back. They do not wish to bring trouble upon themselves. Since the Dalai Lama gave up his Shugden practice in the late 70's, it would not be a smart move for any monastery to say, well here's Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen back in our Monastery. All Gelug Monasteries back then were in alignment with the Tibetan Govt and Dalai Lama.
THAIMONK
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"Thus, when the present Ninth Khalkha Jetsun Dhampa's incarnation was recognized, at the age of four, by Reting Rinpoche, the Regent in Lhasa, as well as other high lamas and the state oracles, his identity was kept secret due to Stalin's influence and oppression in Mongolia. The country vanished from sight, customs and traditions were buried and lost until the five visits of the Dalai Lama in recent years; the last time was in August 1995 when he gave the Kalachakra Initiation.
The Ninth Khalkha Jetsun Dhampa was born at Tromtsikang and then moved to Shol, just below the Potala. His father, Lobsang Jampal, was from Phenpo and his mother, Yangchen was from Kham. At the age of seven, he entered Gomang College, Drepung Monastery, as a simple monk where he studied philosophy for fourteen years, up to the level of Madhyamika. At Gomang he studied primarily with a teacher from Mongolia named Geshe Thupten Nyima. He received his dharma lineages from His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
His Holiness the Panchen Rinpoche, Gyabje Trijang Rinpoche, Gyabje Ling Rinpoche, and Gyabje Lhatsun Rinpoche were his teachers in the Gelukpa lineage. H.H. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche was his teacher in the Nyingma lineage; Kalu Rinpoche was his teacher in the Kagyu lineage; and Sakya Tenzin Rinpoche was his teacher in the Sakya lineage. At the age of 21, he left Gomang College and Drepung to engage in a series of Chod meditations, living the life of a yogi, while on pilgrimage to the holy sites of Tibet.
At the age of 25, he gave back his monastic vows, and then went to stay at Ganden Phunstok Ling, established by his predecesor Taranatha, until the age of 29 when the Chinese invasion forced him into exile, along with hundreds of thousands of Tibetans.
In India, he lived with his family in Darjeeling and Mysore, until 1981, and later in Madhya Pradesh in central India until 1990, quietly serving as lama for the Tibetan community in exile throughout that time. During this period of time Rinpoche did many meditations and gave public teachings in the Tibetan settlements several times a year.
Then, in 1991, with the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the new-found religious freedom felt in Mongolia, many Mongolian monasteries sent their abbots and lamas and ministers to India to request inquiry of the Dalai Lama in Dharamsala about the possible location of the Ninth Khalkha Jetsun Dampa. Did His Holiness know where he was, who he is, and could the Dalai Lama recognize him for the peoples of Mongolia?
It was at that time, through the Religious Office of the Tibetan Government in Exile, that the Dalai Lama gave the official stamp of recognition and acknowledgement of the Ninth Khalkha Jetsun Dhampa, the spiritual head of Buddhism in Mongolia. He moved to Dharamsala to be closer to His Holiness the Dalai Lama, and in 1991, he was officially enthroned as the Ninth Khalkha Jetsun Dhampa, amid great and joyous celebration."
--cited from: [url]http://www.jetsundhampa.com/[/url]
Dear Thaimonk,
Thank you for this sharing. It helps so much.
tk
Doubt is fine. Criticism added to doubt and sarcasm to bring the point across is not.
tk
What criticism and sarcasm are you referencing?
I look forward everyday to the return of the Dharma King. How should we all usher His return?
We usher his return by
1) keeping good samaya with our Guru and Dorje Shugden.
2) be informed about the history, lineage, benefits of Dorje Shugden and his practice so we can explain to people who are not so familiar with this issue.
3) practising harmony with people around us, as always advised by Dorje Shugden.
Doubt is fine. Criticism added to doubt and sarcasm to bring the point across is not.
tk
What criticism and sarcasm are you referencing?
Don't be shy, Tk, you mentioned some sarcasm, could you please point it out or else refrain from making such statements in future, please?
I look forward everyday to the return of the Dharma King. How should we all usher His return?
We usher his return by
1) keeping good samaya with our Guru and Dorje Shugden.
2) be informed about the history, lineage, benefits of Dorje Shugden and his practice so we can explain to people who are not so familiar with this issue.
3) practising harmony with people around us, as always advised by Dorje Shugden.
Dear Wisdom Being,
I really like your answer on how to usher the return of the Great King Dorje Shugden. It is logical, do-able and perfectly Dharmic. What a breath of fresh air after all the confrontational remarks flying around. 1 and 3 is what we all should do anyways as Dharma practitioners.
As for 2, what better way to repay his kindness than to spread his lineage to others so that others can benefit from his practice too. We should be doing it whether or not his incarnation is back. The whole purpose of any enlightened being manifesting in our world is so that he can lead beings out of suffering. Spreading his lineage is synonymous to celebrating his existence and therefore a perfect way of ushering the return of his incarnation, if his incarnation is really back. Thank you for such an enlightening explanation.
I am actually quite underwhelmed. What proof will we get, what if the reincarnation is a fake ?
He could then potentially destroy the lineage from within. I remain cautious.
I am happy with any Lama/Teacher who spreads Je Tsongkhapa's tradition purely but I am
quite suspicious of all these tulkus etc.. Look how many tulkus have disrobed. Yes I don't know their intentions, they might be high bodhisattvas and benefit others, but it would be nice to see some examples of realized being staying in robes too.
Vajra
listen to the wisdom words of Vajra....
Beware Tulkus and the Tulku system....... Beware Tulkus and the Tulku system.......Beware Tulkus and the Tulku system.......
Geshe Kelsang shows a fine example of this, having absolutely banned the promotion of tulku's within his organization, not to mention Oracles and the rest of the claptrap...
Ha Ha ha!
Thanks goodness our Lord Shugden is finally here to save us! He must be an amazing lama! how kind our gurus are for this new stratagem that will shake the world!!!QuoteFinally there is concrete evidence that all the accusation on Dorje Shugden being an evil spirit is false.
That's right, because someone typing something into an input field IS concrete evidence!
H.O.A.X
I did a quick google search and no where else can this info be found except whatever is extracted from this announcement.
How very surprising.
Why incessantly criticize someone you have never seen. Just because he is a tulku and all tulkus have been bad. I don't think so.
tk you have gotten confusedQuoteIf they said there's a Tsongkapa incarnation, yes I would be like great, but I would reserve ANY NEGATIVE COMMENTS ABOUT THIS PERSON TILL I HAVE CHECKED IT OUT.
to make your points seem less arbitrary, please cite one bad thing I have said about this person.QuoteNo matter what efforts I put is not appreciated for the effort and the sincerity alone, then that alone speaks volumes.
Oh for goodness sake!. I appreciate your efforts, ya big baby.
You have misinterpreted, I believe, what ZP was saying. I believe he meant that if I allow my exasperation with the forum members to make me leave, then I have lost. I am not sure what fifth column refers to.
In any case, it is certainly not me vs. you to see who will win, so try to relax. You usally post very calmly, but now yo8u have almost descended to my level. ;)QuoteSorry to say, humbly,
Tk
keep it humble tk. love it.
"Ya big baby? or Keep it humble??" I find those unnecessary and sarcastic.
I think that would be enough examples.
tk
I did a quick google search and no where else can this info be found except whatever is extracted from this announcement.
How very surprising.
H.O.A.X
"Ya big baby? or Keep it humble??" I find those unnecessary and sarcastic.
I think that would be enough examples.
tk
Hi Tk
They may or may not be unnecessary, but those are not examples of sarcasm, those are good natured ribbing. I jokingly called you a big baby because I believed you were being overly sensitive and petulant. I thought light teasing might be ok. I see that I was wrong and I do apologize if I hurt your feelings. I am still not sure why the people of this forum are SO sensitive and controlling with respect to other peoples speech, but there ya go.I did a quick google search and no where else can this info be found except whatever is extracted from this announcement.
How very surprising.
Kate was kind enough to do some research, and based on her findings, i must say that i don;t think that this is sarcastic either. (From Wikipedia, the definition of sarcasm - Sarcasm is “a sharp, bitter, or cutting expression or remark; a bitter jibe or taunt.” From Dictionary.com - In sarcasm, ridicule or mockery is used harshly, often crudely and contemptuously, for destructive purposes.)
There is no jibe, no taunt, no ridicule, no mockery, no contempt, no destructive intention.
This is a dry way of saying that I am not surprised. Why should that wound anyone? I think the word you are looking for is irony, not sarcasm.H.O.A.X
again this is not an example of sarcasm, this was my expressed belief at the time that this was a hoax. I have no idea why this should hurt anyone's feelings.
So why is it that you cannot interact with me here without getting your feelings hurt? Must you insist on controlling how others speak?
I asked you to back up your comment because I had not said anything sarcastic in the posts you were responding to, so I was surprised. Now I see you are still nursing resentment about things I have said in the past. So even if i do not say something new that is sarcastic, you will keep referring to old things and being hurt by them?
Doubt is fine. Criticism added to doubt and sarcasm to bring the point across is not.
tk
What criticism and sarcasm are you referencing?
Don't be shy, Tk, you mentioned some sarcasm, could you please point it out or else refrain from making such statements in future, please?
However, I cannot say the same of your tone of voice in this thread and others. I shall repost one particular comment which shocked me when I read it. And yes, I was quite taken back with your choice of words. Please read the below. This was posted by you in this particular thread on 12th July :-
actually do respect everyone on this forum, but I will attack what I see to be miserable views, and I will do so with the means at my disposal. For me, it's fun. I suggest others learn to enjoy it and stop trying to dictate what style of speech one should use. Otherwise, why join a forum for discussing? Get a few people you like and email your agreed upon views back and forth to each other
I did a quick google search and no where else can this info be found except whatever is extracted from this announcement.
How very surprising.
I did a quick google search and no where else can this info be found except whatever is extracted from this announcement.
How very surprising.
With the pervasive use of the internet, our first stop is usually google search. But it's not surprising to me that this piece of info could come from outside of the net...
Dear CC,
Firstly, let me just say that I do appreciate you taking the time to point out what you do not agree with in my posts. Especially, in my thread about the ban on the search for TDG's reincarnation.
In that thread, you put forth your views very clearly and without any hint of ill intent, rudeness or sacarsm or ironic remarks. And I do appreciate that because it is not an attack on me. At least, I do not perceive it to be. So, I do not feel in any way offended.
However, I cannot say the same of your tone of voice in this thread and others. I shall repost one particular comment which shocked me when I read it. And yes, I was quite taken back with your choice of words. Please read the below. This was posted by you in this particular thread on 12th July :-
I actually do respect everyone on this forum, but I will attack what I see to be miserable views, and I will do so with the means at my disposal. For me, it's fun. I suggest others learn to enjoy it and stop trying to dictate what style of speech one should use. Otherwise, why join a forum for discussing? Get a few people you like and email your agreed upon views back and forth to each other
Now, I hope you will not take an offence for me to tell you this as a friend. Because you do not strike me as someone who do not wish to hear the truth. And you post for TS in News From Shar Gaden shows me that you are indeed a very caring person who is dedicated to the Dharma.
I don't know who you are nor do I know the people here. But if your tine has affected this many other people and not just one person, then do you not pause to think why? Do you not wish to find out how come a lot of people felt that way too?
So, I hope you take this in the same manner in which I have received your comments in my other thread. This is not an attack. This is just sharing with you in hope you also understand.
May be it is very much valued by the rest in this Forum when you do not attack, and think it is fun to do so, but just forth your views with the intention of finding out the truth or just wanting to develop more understanding.
Again, I sincerely hope you do not take this wrong way, because you have much knowledge and much to share.
I may not always agree with you, but hey, I do respect you as a fellow dharma brother/friend. In fact, your comments have motivated me to search the net much more, find out more and learn up. So, today I can say I do know more because Crazy Cloud kept saying I am not right, but not in a rude way.
Thank you for that indeed. You have a wonderful day now, CC.
May be it is very much valued by the rest in this Forum when you do not attack, and think it is fun to do so, but just forth your views with the intention of finding out the truth or just wanting to develop more understanding.
"Ya big baby? or Keep it humble??" I find those unnecessary and sarcastic.
I think that would be enough examples.
tk
Hi Tk
They may or may not be unnecessary, but those are not examples of sarcasm, those are good natured ribbing. I jokingly called you a big baby because I believed you were being overly sensitive and petulant. I thought light teasing might be ok. I see that I was wrong and I do apologize if I hurt your feelings. I am still not sure why the people of this forum are SO sensitive and controlling with respect to other peoples speech, but there ya go.I did a quick google search and no where else can this info be found except whatever is extracted from this announcement.
How very surprising.
Kate was kind enough to do some research, and based on her findings, i must say that i don;t think that this is sarcastic either. (From Wikipedia, the definition of sarcasm - Sarcasm is “a sharp, bitter, or cutting expression or remark; a bitter jibe or taunt.” From Dictionary.com - In sarcasm, ridicule or mockery is used harshly, often crudely and contemptuously, for destructive purposes.)
There is no jibe, no taunt, no ridicule, no mockery, no contempt, no destructive intention.
This is a dry way of saying that I am not surprised. Why should that wound anyone? I think the word you are looking for is irony, not sarcasm.H.O.A.X
again this is not an example of sarcasm, this was my expressed belief at the time that this was a hoax. I have no idea why this should hurt anyone's feelings.
So why is it that you cannot interact with me here without getting your feelings hurt? Must you insist on controlling how others speak?
I asked you to back up your comment because I had not said anything sarcastic in the posts you were responding to, so I was surprised. Now I see you are still nursing resentment about things I have said in the past. So even if i do not say something new that is sarcastic, you will keep referring to old things and being hurt by them?
I believe that if we're truly sorry about something, then we don't need to follow on our apology with explanations, justifications and further comments/ opinions about others' reactions to us. It's like saying, "I'm sorry I broke your antique vase but you shouldn't have put it on that table; I was just walking past it and hit it and it fell over; why do you make such a big deal, it's just a vase anyway."
If you're sorry for "hurting TK's feelings" as you say in the first paragraph, then why do you go on and on to question WHY his feelings are hurt and make it out like it is his problem - that he's nursing resentment, that he's controlling how others speak, that people on the forum are sensitive etc etc and then explain and explain.
If you're really sorry for hurting someone's feelings, then isn't it just about that: the fact that someone's feelings are hurt? The very fact that we have to explain, justify and point back at what others are doing "wrong" shows clearly that the apology was not a real apology at all.
Doubt is fine. Criticism added to doubt and sarcasm to bring the point across is not.
tk
What criticism and sarcasm are you referencing?
Don't be shy, Tk, you mentioned some sarcasm, could you please point it out or else refrain from making such statements in future, please?
I don't want to take sides on this issue but you ask for the examples of sarcasm and tk oblige your request. He quoted examples of it.
Then you say tk is shy and oversensitive about this whole issue... Why do you keep goading him on?
I find that rather unnecessary and I think tk has been rather patient about this. Then, you apologise for something... and you turn around and explain yourself again. Wouldn't the forums be a lot nicer place to share news and knowledge of Shugden without all this unnecessary explanations and apologies?
A reminder too of the forum's rules, short and simple: We promote and value HARMONY. Please do not post anything negative about any lamas, sects, deities or anyone.
What I certainly don't appreciate is when it becomes "fun" to do for the sake of just arguing or wanting to be right.
"Attack what I see to be miserable views"... it's exactly that - WHAT YOU SEE to be miserable views.Whether they are "miserable" or not is besides the point. That's your interpretation...
and already you are taking a judgmental high ground that no one has the right to here.
You are making things personal now; note your choice of words: to attack? I don't believe this is what the forum is about, as is clearly stated above. It's about a healthy debate, gaining understanding (even of the things we don't agree to).
All of us have the right to our points of view;
we could even agree to disagree and have completely opposing views. But to start jibing at each other, mocking, being sarcastic or ironic about what someone may hold seriously as their beliefs just doesn't contribute towards a harmonious environment - how can it??
Think about whether a comment for or against a view is actually contributing information, knowledge or education to the topic at hand. Or does the comment just argue for the sake or arguing because:
1) you find it "miserable"
2) you personally aren't convinced of that view / don't like that view
3) it's "fun" to just stir things up
How does making sarcastic, ironic, jibing little one-liners add to someone's education? Or will it just make them leave with the impression that this is how Buddhists "debate" and put each other down to make a point?
Dear CC,
Perhaps there may be a lot of people in this Forum from very different upbringing, education and cultural backgrounds also - regardless of having Dharma or not, and being a sincere or mature practitioner or not.
Perhaps might be good to consider that each individual's cultural/educational background and upbringing may see things very differently from the way you do, or I do. And vice versa.
Asians will definitely see things very differently from Westerners. Americans respond very differently from Europeans. Even in Asians, the different ethnic groups will communicate and understand in their own unique way.
I can tell you, living in HK is like being in a huge melting pot of different cultures and what nots. So, it takes a lot of skill and time to learn how to communicate with different people so that misunderstandings do not arise.
In any case, what should matter most is that we want to strive for a deeper and richer understanding of the subject matter at hand. I am sure you'd like others to understand your point of views too, and not just think they are coming down hard on you or vice versa.
I, myself, have offended some people in here before such as A Friend. But I did sincerely apologise. And I do mean it. I learn a great deal from there too. And yes, I adjust myself. But I do not consider that a bad thing. It's a work-in-progress for higher understanding.
So, we all have to learn/modify/improve as we also do in real life - ie outside of this Forum.
Otherwise, how would we achieve harmony, peace and friendship in the real sense?
Anyways, this is really just a personal sharing. You may not agree and it is not designed for convincing you either.
Something tells me you are one of those who will decide for himself and hates people pushing him around to a certain way of thinking.
I am glad to know that you are having a glorious day. Enjoy.
Here's to harmony and friendship. May they always endure and rise above every pettiness and misunderstandings.
great stuff, so true.
I do appreciate your "sharing" and am glad you have no interest in convincing me, it really comes across. Of course as a result, it has a greater effect on my mind, pacifying me like music soothes a wild beast.
As to my character, I am mercurial and change a great deal depending on circumstances. I will allow myself to be pushed around if I think it serves the greater good, but you are right, i will always decide for myself.
I do notice a great deal of misunderstandings of my posts, so perhaps I will modify in future, who knows?
cheers all
Dorje Shugden and Saint George – Brothers in Arms
Some time ago I was attending teachings at a Dharma center. During a break I joined a group of visitors who were being shown round. One of them expressed surprise at the figure of a Tibetan Buddha who was holding a sword and riding a fierce looking Himalayan snow lion. She wanted to know why, if Buddhism was a religion of peace and gentleness, this Buddha was armed.
The guide explained that the Buddha was Dorje Shugden, who was the Dharma Protector of the center. A Dharma Protector has the function of spiritual guidance and protection of those who follow a particular Buddhist path. The sword was symbolic and was used to cut through the bonds of ignorance and attachment which bind us to Samsara. It was certainly not for injuring sentient beings.
This explanation of the role of Dorje Shugden (also spelled Dorje Shugdan) very much reminded me of the concept of a Patron Saint in Christianity, and in particular of Saint George, who is also depicted as an armed knight.
Saint George is usually shown in combat with a dragon, which he is attempting to slay using a sword, or sometimes when depicted on horseback he has a lance.
Of course the dragon also is not a sentient being. Terrestrial reptiles of that size (let alone fire-breathing ones!) have not existed during human history, so they can’t be some sort of folk memory of dinosaurs – though I suppose it is possible that dinosaur fossils may have been unearthed in ancient times and given rise to legends of dragons.
But, as Brian Bates points out in The Real Middle Earth [1], to ancient peoples dragons had an allegorical and symbolic significance. The typical dragon would gather and guard a hoard of treasure, and fly into fiery and destructive anger if any of the treasure were removed. And yet the dragon could not spend any of its wealth. Tolkien’s Smaug in The Hobbit has many precedents in ancient folklore.
So the symbol of the dragon represents the two useless and destructive delusions of attachment and anger, which Saint George is attempting to destroy.
The historical Saint George was a native of Cappadocia and was martyred for his beliefs in 303 AD by the emperor Diocletian. Thus the legend of St George dates from the earliest period of Christianity, when it was still close to its Buddhist roots [2].
Saint George is the Patron Saint of several countries and cities, and is often regarded, like some of the Arthurian knights, as a symbol of Christian chivalry.
As with Saint George, the historical Dorje Shugden also suffered martyrdom for speaking his mind. According to Donald Lopez Jr.[3] he was a learned and virtuous monk of the seventeenth century. He was also an expert debater, but one day his debating skills annoyed the establishment and he was found dead soon after with a ceremonial scarf stuffed down his throat.
Following his death, Dorje Shudgen was adopted as the protector of the Gelug school of Tibetan Buddhism. In common with St. George, he has a chivalrous aspect, his forceful functions being to ‘dispel false accusations against the innocent’ and to act as the ‘protector of the protectorless’ [4] .
So we can perhaps think of the two supramundane knights – one Buddhist, the other Christian – as brothers-in-arms in the bloodless war against delusions.
Let faith be my shield and let joy be my steed
‘Gainst the dragons of anger, the ogres of greed;
And let me set free, with the sword of my youth,
From the castle of darkness, the power of the truth.
From ‘WHEN A KNIGHT WON HIS SPURS’
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
REFS
[1] The Real Middle Earth by Brian Bates, published Sidgwick and Jackson 2002. ISBN 0 283 07353 5
[2] Key dates for the politically inspired removal of the Buddhist teachings from Christianity are -
In the East, the Second Council of Constantinople 553 AD.
In the West, the Synod of Whitby in 664.
The process was completed with the Papal extermination of the Cathars (Albigensians) in the 13th century.
[3] ‘Two Sides of the same God’ by Donald S. Lopez, Jr. in Tricycle, Vol VII, No 3 Spring 1998, pp 67 to 69.
[4] ‘Heart Jewel’ by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, second edition published Tharpa 1997 ISBN 0 948006 56 0 p.119.
Perhaps there may be a lot of people in this Forum from very different upbringing, education and cultural backgrounds also - regardless of having Dharma or not, and being a sincere or mature practitioner or not.
Perhaps might be good to consider that each individual's cultural/educational background and upbringing may see things very differently from the way you do, or I do. And vice versa.
Asians will definitely see things very differently from Westerners. Americans respond very differently from Europeans. Even in Asians, the different ethnic groups will communicate and understand in their own unique way.
I can tell you, living in HK is like being in a huge melting pot of different cultures and what nots. So, it takes a lot of skill and time to learn how to communicate with different people so that misunderstandings do not arise.
In any case, what should matter most is that we want to strive for a deeper and richer understanding of the subject matter at hand. I am sure you'd like others to understand your point of views too, and not just think they are coming down hard on you or vice versa.
I, myself, have offended some people in here before such as A Friend. But I did sincerely apologise. And I do mean it. I learn a great deal from there too. And yes, I adjust myself. But I do not consider that a bad thing. It's a work-in-progress for higher understanding.
So, we all have to learn/modify/improve as we also do in real life - ie outside of this Forum.
Otherwise, how would we achieve harmony, peace and friendship in the real sense?
Anyways, this is really just a personal sharing. You may not agree and it is not designed for convincing you either.
Something tells me you are one of those who will decide for himself and hates people pushing him around to a certain way of thinking.
I am glad to know that you are having a glorious day. Enjoy.
Here's to harmony and friendship. May they always endure and rise above every pettiness and misunderstandings.
QuoteNot to worry Sweetheart. I Defend the Lineage of My Masters and Lone Hermit seems to enjoy jumping on my case as disturbed also. I am doing exactly as My Masters instructed 15 years ago. Maybe after another decade you to will understand the depth of this schism goes way back in our sense of time.
Hi Thom,
Most of the personalities here are just online virtual person creations just like on Facebook, to create the illusion that interesting, ordinary people are talking about Dorje Shugden, etc. Don't let the puppet master pull your strings. I don't see how having an honest discussion is an any way possible or worthwhile trying.
I'll give it a day then delete my account as it is obvious there is something fishy going on the site. Some people with agendas are creating a coup over Dorje Shugden.
That way you can hustle people to think something that is not true about Dorje Shugden and the Dalia Lama are working together is false.
But since this is your site. I'll bow out from lack of interest in supporting a dharma drama with liars and people like you.
I changed my mind little worm,I'd rather stay here and nail you for your stupidity.Dear Tc,
I see you did not answer my statements.
As you have nothing to say as English is your second language.
I'll just tell you to shut up and mind your own business.
Whatever hole you crawled out of you are not a Practrioner of Dorje Shugden
I think you are just a pain in the ass,\Quote that as you have nothing to say
Oh I forgot, I'll list your alternative webs sites., Is it humid in the Southeast?
I'll give it a day then delete my account as it is obvious there is something fishy going on the site. Some people with agendas are creating a coup over Dorje Shugden.
That way you can hustle people to think something that is not true about Dorje Shugden and the Dalia Lama are working together is false.
But since this is your site. I'll bow out from lack of interest in supporting a dharma drama with liars and people like you.
Whatever hole you crawled out of you are not a Practrioner of Dorje Shugden
I changed my mind little worm,I'd rather stay here and nail you for your stupidity.
I'll just tell you to shut up and mind your own business.
Whatever hole you crawled out of you are not a Practrioner of Dorje Shugden
I think you are just a pain in the ass,\Quote that as you have nothing to say
...To say this one line reflects everything about the very person who is saying this. Do you think using this kind of language, talking in this way says very much about YOURSELF as a practitioner?
I’m so saddened and disheartened today. I respected Thomas Canada very much for his great passion, tenacity and for holding on strongly to his beliefs. But talking in this way to others is just not inspiring at all. It makes me sad to think that a DS practitioner can react in this way. I lose respect for him a little today by all these nasty posts.
When we come across situations or people we dislike, views we disagree with, then shouldn’t we be even more patient, more tolerant, more tenacious, find more skilful methods to put our point across? To simply blow up like this doesn’t say much at all about how far you have come in your practice.
Dear HD,
(and especially, dear Thomas DC, please do not mind if I talk a little beside here...)
So, HD, and whoever is reading, if you would just know the whole story, you would perhaps feel different. I mean, you said that you have been "in this thing" for a half a year, but if you would have been "here" for, let us say, for a decade or more, you might know the case of This Certain Man, who gave his life and his wealth, for the Lineage of Je Tsongkhapa, but who nevertheless got kicked out by the brother of the Dalai Lama from the very Centre he had donated simply because he maintained his Protector practice given to him by his Lama, and who has got constant ostracism and been targeted in very unethical, but ah, so wonderfully mysterious Tibetan ways, ever since, by those who follow the Ever Holy Dalai Lama, you might, perhaps, understand why somebody is sometimes in a bit non-peaceful state.
It is not respect, in a big or lessened way, that you should feel. But compassion. The Ban is not a joke, or a part of any "big picture", or just something floating in an universe of ideations. It is real, and it has it's victims, who are real persons. He is one.
The Ban is evil, the source of that Ban is likewise, and so are those who uphold it.
Gyara Tulku Rinpoche from Drepung Loseling Monastery wrote a prayer of gratitude, whose sentiments are shared by Dorje Shugden practitioners worldwide:
First you gave me a highly qualified Spiritual Guide
Under whom I studied and practised Dharma.
When through following misleading advice I came close to entering wrong paths,
You immediately hooked me back into the correct path.
O Duldzin, King of the Dharma, I thank you for your kindness.
Your body is the synthesis of all Sangha Jewels,
Your speech is the synthesis of all Dharma Jewels,
And your mind is the synthesis of all Buddha Jewels.
Dear HD,
(and especially, dear Thomas DC, please do not mind if I talk a little beside here...)
So, HD, and whoever is reading, if you would just know the whole story, you would perhaps feel different. I mean, you said that you have been "in this thing" for a half a year, but if you would have been "here" for, let us say, for a decade or more, you might know the case of This Certain Man, who gave his life and his wealth, for the Lineage of Je Tsongkhapa, but who nevertheless got kicked out by the brother of the Dalai Lama from the very Centre he had donated simply because he maintained his Protector practice given to him by his Lama, and who has got constant ostracism and been targeted in very unethical, but ah, so wonderfully mysterious Tibetan ways, ever since, by those who follow the Ever Holy Dalai Lama, you might, perhaps, understand why somebody is sometimes in a bit non-peaceful state.
It is not respect, in a big or lessened way, that you should feel. But compassion. The Ban is not a joke, or a part of any "big picture", or just something floating in an universe of ideations. It is real, and it has it's victims, who are real persons. He is one.
The Ban is evil, the source of that Ban is likewise, and so are those who uphold it.
I am very sorry for what I am about to say, if it may sting; I don’t mean this in a disrespectful manner. But shouldn’t we, as dharma practitioners go beyond just saying we were hurt and use that over and over again to justify why we are angry, not in a peaceful state of mind or lash out at others? Yes, there is no denying that you were hurt and but then what? Are you going to allow that to justify all the anger that you’re feeling and continue to “share” with the world forever?
Would it be more helpful and healing, perhaps, to transform that hurt into something positive? Instead of just feeling angry all the time and “getting back” by constantly reminding ourselves (and others) of what the other person has done to us, try to look at how you can help others in the same situation, bringing light and relief to others who are suffering in whatever way?
The first method clearly isn’t working – it just brings more angst, anger and sadness to yourself, and possibly more hurt to other people also. Ironically, you end up perpetuating and spreading the very hurt that you had received from that person who had hurt you in the first place. The latter method – it might not right the wrong of the past, but it has far more potential for bringing some light to others. It is more likely to "work" in terms of healing our minds and helping us come to some peace, as there is more potential for benefit and positivity from that action instead.
This is great news. I really can't wait for the truth to unfold. I really can't wait for the ban to be lifted. May Kyabje Drakpa Gyeltsen bring benefit to millions and millions of people once the ban is lifted.
A light of hope will finally clear out the darkness that befalls this earth. The holy Dharma will be replenished. Many will feel the benefits. May Kyabje Drakpa Gyeltsen have a long life and may he help lead countless people to enlightenment.
This is indeed good news for us practitioners and I can't wait for Him to announce himself to the world.
WHO?? WHEN?? 2 year? 5 years?
And I look forward to seeing a huge monastery dedicate to Dorje Shugden very soon!!!
This is indeed good news for us practitioners and I can't wait for Him to announce himself to the world.
WHO?? WHEN?? 2 year? 5 years?
And I look forward to seeing a huge monastery dedicate to Dorje Shugden very soon!!!
Announcing yourself as a reincarnation is not usually how it is done in the Gelugpa. From my understanding, the Lama who confirms or entrones the tulku is the one who makes the 'announcing'. I would have a hard time trusting a Lama as a 'tulku' who announced himself or proped himself up as a tulku without first having it be formally declared openly by the Lama who enthroned him.
so, no announcememt after all...? ;D
This is indeed good news for us practitioners and I can't wait for Him to announce himself to the world.
WHO?? WHEN?? 2 year? 5 years?
And I look forward to seeing a huge monastery dedicate to Dorje Shugden very soon!!!
Announcing yourself as a reincarnation is not usually how it is done in the Gelugpa. From my understanding, the Lama who confirms or entrones the tulku is the one who makes the 'announcing'. I would have a hard time trusting a Lama as a 'tulku' who announced himself or proped himself up as a tulku without first having it be formally declared openly by the Lama who enthroned him.
CLICK HERE TO SEE THE LINK:
[url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/tdg.html[/url] ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/tdg.html[/url])
SUCH HISTORICAL AND INCREDIBLE NEWS. This line of Tulkus has unwittingly 'threatened' and frightened the Tibetan Govt for 350 years. They have spent so much resources to obliterate everything about him and his name. Now his incarnation is back??? This proves Tibetan Govt is WRONG. If Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen was such an evil being, he should be in the three lower realms. He's not. He is among us and doing dharma work again which proves all the untruths spewed by Tibetan Govt to be totally untrue. Their untruths are proven openly WRONG by the living incarnation of this illustrious being living among us now.
I am very excited to hear more announcements in the future. This is made one day after H.H. Dalai Lama's 75th birthday. How ironic is that.
May Kyabje Drakpa Gyeltsen Rinpoche live exceptionally long and reveal his whereabouts very soon and may I have the chance to meet his incarnation wherever he is now. May Kyabje Drakpa Gyeltsen and H.H. Dalai Lama again unite and meet in this life as they did prior to his murder 350 years ago.
TK
You mention that the recognition should be given by the Lama who confirmed him. However, what if the Lama who confirmed or enthroned that particular tulku has passed on, surely another highly respected Lama's recognition would suffice? Which Lamas in the world who are still alive would you trust this kind of recognition with? I'm just curious.
You mention that the recognition should be given by the Lama who confirmed him. However, what if the Lama who confirmed or enthroned that particular tulku has passed on, surely another highly respected Lama's recognition would suffice? Which Lamas in the world who are still alive would you trust this kind of recognition with? I'm just curious.
Dear Losang Tenpa,
You didn't respond to my question above? I'm curious as to what would convince you that a particular incarnation is genuine? Of course an internet announcement is not enough to convince me. But if a high lama, such as HH Gaden Trisur or HE Gangchen Rinpoche or any of the great Shugden Lamas, confirms the incarnation, or the oracle confirms it, that would be good enough for me.
I know that there is often controversy over the identification of incarnations but i am sure that the good qualities of the current incarnation would be the ultimate proof.
For sure it is important to have confirmation from other high Lamas. Also, the incarnation status of tulkus are often and almost always confirmed by the protectors in trance, through oracles. So I believe this would probably also be sought as further confirmation, and would have to match the divinations / visions / dreams and confirmation of the high Lamas.
As to the specific incarnations and emanations of Dorje Shugden - do remember that enlightened beings are also able to manifest simultaneous incarnations and emanations. It is not uncommon for tulkus to manifest in three or several forms, for example - the body incarnation, speech incarnation and mind incarnation.
It is openly known that the Dalai Lama's own brother AND Samdhong Rinpoche are recognised as Shugden emanations. Surprise? (or not, perhaps!)
For sure it is important to have confirmation from other high Lamas. Also, the incarnation status of tulkus are often and almost always confirmed by the protectors in trance, through oracles. So I believe this would probably also be sought as further confirmation, and would have to match the divinations / visions / dreams and confirmation of the high Lamas.
Beggar, your post got me thinking. Kyabje Drakpa Gyeltsen, if recognised and enthroned would be one of the most powerful forces in the Tibetan Buddhist world, and THE most powerful in the Shugden movement. The CTA would be trembling in their beds just considering this possibility. Therefore, should Kyabje Drakpa Gyeltsen ever decide to reveal himself, who would recognised him? Who would enthrone him?
....
I'm sure since this announcement was made, the supporters of Kyabje Drakpa Gyeltsen, those who know that he is alive, would already be considering these facts. Perhaps they are even planning to request the oracle of Shugden or Setrab or other deities to recognise the new incarnation. Previous life recognising a future life? Surreal yet entirely possible.
Just wondering if anyone on this thread has considered what type of reaction the NKT and Geshe Kelsang Gyatso may have about the idea of enthroning someone as Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen. I do not think GKG endorses or promotes any tulku, and as far as I know he does not seem to think that the tulku system is integral to the fluorishing of the Dharma in the West.
Any thoughts? I am very curious.....
Just wondering if anyone on this thread has considered what type of reaction the NKT and Geshe Kelsang Gyatso may have about the idea of enthroning someone as Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen. I do not think GKG endorses or promotes any tulku, and as far as I know he does not seem to think that the tulku system is integral to the fluorishing of the Dharma in the West.
Any thoughts? I am very curious.....
It is really great that Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen is just among us now, waiting for a correct time to help the rest of this world get out of samsara. I believe all these are only announced to show us that the ban is really coming down soon.
Hence, with this it just proved that what others say that Dorje Shugden being an evil spirit is wrong and that there might be a bigger issue going on to help spread Dharma further and to a bigger community. Just that some people are misinterpreting and twisting all the positive signs to make them look bad.
And if, Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen is really bad, then the reincarnations of him would not be even recognized by all these high lamas and oracles.