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About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: LosangKhyentse on March 14, 2010, 12:21:50 AM

Title: Kopan Monks Divided
Post by: LosangKhyentse on March 14, 2010, 12:21:50 AM


Kopan has a large portion of monks who are of Nepalese descent. The other part is Tibetan. These two groups are having problems and not getting along. So Kopan now is not in a harmonious state. The karma of creating dissent in other places using the Shugden issue is now coming back full swing I am sorry to say. Many FPMT centres around the world go on witch hunts accusing other centres of practicing Dorje Shugden for sake of gaining Dalai lama's favour. It is very sad. It is selling out on Lama Yeshe and their lineage lamas.

Kopan should resume their practices as ordained by their root lama, founding father and Master Lama Yeshe. To abandon their practices in order to get in the good books of the Dalai lama will have only temporary benefits as their samaya with their root guru, Lama Yeshe, is severely broken.

What happens if the Dalai lama passes (sorry) and they have another lama teaching in the future, do they adopt the practices another lama teaches because Dalai Lama is passed? If not, then why would you abandon your practice from Lama Yeshe just because another more famous teacher (Dalai lama) says you should. The practices laid down by the founding father of the Monasteries, in this case Kopan, should keep their practices and not trade it in for anything if they wish their lineage to grow, practices to be able to confer blessings.

Just because Lama yeshe has passed away, FPMT should not just abandon their Shugden practices and adopt what Dalai lama says. If we keep doing that, our Monastery will have lost it's basis.

What happens if everyone does that? The minute your master passes, you abandon what he taught you to practice and adopt another lama's? Then when the new lama passes, you again abandon what he taught, and adopt yet again more new practices. That does not sound right. To switch practices each time your lama passes and adopt a new and more famous lama's practices IS NOT THE RIGHT WAY TO GO. But that is what Kopan/FPMT is doing today. Hence after Lama Zopa, they will have many problems already for sure. It is such a waste that a great institution like that shows poor example of guru/lineal devotion.

I for one would never join in Kopan or their activities due to this break. I am sorry to say.

TK
Title: Re: Kopan Monks Divided
Post by: xiangba on March 14, 2010, 05:49:02 AM
http://blog.sina.com.cn/dorjeshugden
Title: Re: Kopan Monks Divided
Post by: honeydakini on March 14, 2010, 08:23:55 PM
TK - thank you for sharing this information. I have heard about FPMT being very clear that they no longer wish to practice Dorje Shugden and this is probably why the reincarnation of Lama Yeshe - Lama Osel - cannot be with them. They directly break samaya with their root teacher which makes it difficult for him to come back and be with them. I have learnt also that it not only makes it difficult for us to reconnect with our Lama, but we also create the negative cause that, in the future, we also are not able to receive or hear any Dharma, meet any teachers; in the worst cases of breaking such a sacred bond with our teachers, we create the causes to even meet with wrong paths and wrong views, that are opposite to the dharma. How frightening and dangerous.

I agree that it is really dangerous to "drop" a practice just because another (more famous) lama says so. Once we start saying that our lama is wrong in one aspect, then what makes us think that all the other teachings he has taught us are also not wrong? What makes us so sure, after all, that this lama is right? If our lamas can be wrong, then so could the next lama, and the next and the next... so then who do we listen to? We open up the door for many things to be "wrong" also. It also means that if one lama has the "power" to say that one practice is wrong, then it opens up the possibility for other lamas to also start saying another practice is wrong. What gives one lama more sway or power to decide which practice is correct or not? I find it very disheartening and frustrating to hear that one lama can say that one practice is wrong, which then completely obliterates all the other THOUSANDS of sangha over the past 350 YEARS who have said that it is a good and enlightened practice. That makes the practices very fickle and loses all basis of our practice.

Title: Re: Kopan Monks Divided
Post by: DharmaDefender on March 14, 2010, 10:12:25 PM
I have learnt also that it not only makes it difficult for us to reconnect with our Lama, but we also create the negative cause that, in the future, we also are not able to receive or hear any Dharma, meet any teachers;

How odd that you should use those exact words because I was just conversing with someone who broke from NKT five years ago. I quote their words: they have since had a lot of trouble "putting together a practice" without the support, and "without the benefit of receiving teachings"  :(

Switching practices isn't just dangerous but at the most basic level, damn bloody confusing! I'd rather just stick to one lama who tells me one thing, and that's it! When you switch, you end up with a whole bunch of different practices that you cannot keep your commitments to...like people who it's okay to go from centre to centre, picking up initiations that their lamas didn't want to give them. Going from centre to centre just proves that the lama was right all along, that the student wasn't prepared to receive initiations.

Speaking of Lama Osel, do you think that due to Lama Yeshe's attainments, that Lama Osel can return to the fold very quickly when this is all over? Or is the broken samaya so great that even if Lama Osel wanted to, he could not?
Title: Re: Kopan Monks Divided
Post by: DharmaDefender on March 14, 2010, 10:40:19 PM

"Lying, cheating, being sneaky and using people when you're in a Dharma organisation is the same as the karma of KILLING PEOPLE.

These types of people become cold, animal-like, and have tremendous unhappiness, pain and troubles waiting for them in the future AGAIN and AGAIN."
Tsum Tulku

Well, this does not bode well for Dalia Lama! Makes sense that his brother decided to recincarnate as  burro in Tiajaunia, Mexico.

I know you didn't post that to be self-righteous (because your posts never come across as self-righteous, and I'm not saying that in a smarmy way!) but I just want to point out that it does not bode well for anyone else either, not just the Dalai Lama. Just because we practise DS, does not necessarily mean we are perfect practitioners who aren't at risk of becoming cold, animal-like and suffer from tremendous unhappiness etc etc. We're all subject to karma, whether DS practitioners or not.
Title: Re: Kopan Monks Divided
Post by: Geronimo on March 14, 2010, 11:05:24 PM
No, I was simply saying as he does that first of all he is human. Secondly, he is subject to the same condtions as everyone else.
Thirdly,it was his brother who repeatedly stated that he would reincarnate as a burro in Tiajunia.'
I pledged to find him as his friend. I took it quite seriously. Oh yes! I protect my friends and think myself loyal. Even though this has been an ongoing project. I am confident that I will leqrn to forgive my own idiocy and forgive what I believed were attacks from others were no more than my own maras.
Ultimately, at least I see the possibilities and not stuck in some emotional corner for years on end.
Nope! Not anymore.
Most of you are young and so fortunate to have so many books and quailified Teachers and Lamas attending to the needs of others. It was not always this way in the West, afterall we are just getting started.
 Think when you are my age and you look back. You'll be amazed at the Flourishing of the Dharma.
The tighter the world gets, the more the pot will fill all the cups and happiness will reign, because we are writing the future today, as we think,speak and pray! Accumulated Merit includes not only us, but all of these Realized Masters.
Wow! I feel better already.
Whatever mny karma might bring, I,at least know that I carry the dharma with me and this will help to endure any horrors or bad karmas.
One good Prayer is worth a thousand mindless recitations.
Try it! Certainly we have enough of whatever it is to be here
Makes me think that we could generate at least 270,000 Powerful Prayers from what I've read here.
Love Prayer Terrorist Blast Away through the concrete and flower pop up! Something like that![lol]
I thought Tsem was clear and thought of Dl lying and deceiving everyone is really too horrible to comtemplate. So make it a kinda joke to rub off the possibilities in  my mind for what he has done to others.
Plus, it says how important it is to maintain our vows, expecially when we are depending on each other in a Sangha Community. Not to be looking over your back, trust!
 I know I have had experiences with others in sanghas that broke my heart and made me angry.
So,Tsum Rinpoche put the fire under the seat and reminds us of the reactions to our actions in thought and deed. I do believe we can change bad actions for good actions and come out whole. One knows when the storms have swept across our minds. Becasue after it passes, we come to know the calm.
The Calm completes and if we are vigilant, whatever it was we did, we're not nearly as likely to do it again. This in itself brings a certain peace and knowing that one does not have to just allow the storm to last long or even arise in the first place. If it is in there, I think it best to get it out. Hanging on to stuff, will make you crazy and old before your time!
I observed Norbu holding and getting older and crazier than he was when he started out.Why? He was polite and kind and made me laugh and called me Old Friend all of the time.
He hid from the politics as long as he could,then after the Pultizer Prize, he really went beserk and paranoid, like Professor Hoffman seeing Nazi marching after him. I think the CIA turned these men into some sort of animals. One's who were taught to lie and deceive, spy on others, while pretending to some sort of holy men.This is what some of us confused the dharma with. Why? Because for years he never taught, but fanned his hatred onto us to project back upon the Communist. We did not even know what the kanjur and tanjur were about. He did not want us to know about the real Lhasa politics. What did we know? We lived in the country and simply worked side by side or in my case alone more than not. I had a John Deere Tractor, almost a diety![hoho] to build stupas and temples and mow the fields. One tractor is worth about 5,000 slaves. So Norbu got along like he did back in Old Tibet with the Serfs.One tractor worth 5,000 serfs?
 Imagine how that concept went over our heads. So removed from a world that was a medieval serfdom, we thought it picturesque in Tibet. We did not think of the reality.
  Anyway, lies and deceits sometime fill too many books.
I for one cannot express how grateful I am that I met Dorje Shugden and All the Other Dharma Practioners over the years literally saved my life and brought me sanity. Not perfect, but I'm working on it! Ever so much better than other times in my life. How many times have we been destroyed and recreated just in this life?
Grateful to be alive and accept my karma and do my dharma as best as I can without fear and worry about being a human devil. I think I forgave myself and this includes many others.
Be kind and if you get out of sort. Just rewind and play it again with kindness. It works everytime.
If we Practice the Precepts! Then relax, it's really all we can do, is generate love as best as we can. That in itself is a Miracle!
Je T'Song Khapa taught this is true and how to do it.
Amazing!
I am so grateful!
Being a Practioner gives my life meaning
Compasion for others is the Bodichitta
We are not alone
The Lamas prove that
We are together in samsara with rainbows and clear pure mind streams
If we want to Be!

Title: Re: Kopan Monks Divided
Post by: a friend on March 15, 2010, 01:19:36 AM

It looks as if you were really back from the cold, friend.
It really seems that it´s getting better and better for you and that makes me so happy. I wish Beggar could read your posts these days ...
Best to you, always!

Title: Re: Kopan Monks Divided
Post by: harrynephew on March 15, 2010, 11:43:27 AM
it is sad to receive news that Kopan is in a disharmonious state. Again it shows us how much people cherish the Dharma and want to make a stand for what is known to be right and otherwise. I feel sad that members of the Sangha has to go through this ordeal. In times like these when we're faced with such difficult situation, is there a way to help? Especially in getting out our message of peace through the practice of Dorje Shugden?

I pray that the monks will get back in harmony in order to benefit sentient beings hungry for salvation

HN
Title: Re: Kopan Monks Divided
Post by: WisdomBeing on March 15, 2010, 01:44:42 PM
The situation at Kopan is very sad. I was struck by what TK pointed out about if we change the practice our own lama gave us because another lama says so, then when this other lama passes on or another lama tells us otherwise, we change again? That is not logical at all and shows the one's practice has no firm foundation to be abandoned so easily.

It is interesting that while Lama Zopa advocates abandoning Shugden practice, he simply expresses it as an extension of his loyalty to HH Dalai Lama rather than being critical of Shugden:

In the FPMT (Foundation for the Preservation of the Mahayana Tradition) Handbook, Lama Zopa says:

“All those who offer service or teach in FPMT centers are committed to follow the advice of His Holiness the Dalai Lama. As an example, His Holiness has prohibited the practice of the so-called protector, Do Gyel (Shugden), so teachers or others affiliated with the FPMT should not engage in this practice.”

in his advice book (which is posted on this website too http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1166), he states that he has imposed not engaging in Shugden practice  because HH the Dalai Lama said so and NOT because of anything wrong with Shugden practice as a whole:

Therefore, it becomes very important to support His Holiness and to fulfil His Holiness’ wishes. For that reason, Kopan Monastery stopped doing this practice. This was done for His Holiness. This does not mean that Pabongka Dechen Nyingpo, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche, and His Holiness Zong Rinpoche have made mistakes. It does not mean they are wrong. Nor does one have to look at the protector as evil.

It would have been better for FPMT if Lama Zopa had kept Shugden practice and many might say that Lama Zopa sold out Lama Yeshe because of following HH Dalai Lama's directive. However, i do hope that Lama Zopa himself is still practising in private and when the ban is lifted or fades, he will be able to be public about it.

In the meantime though, would Lama Zopa bear the karma for the broken samaya of the monks who, under Lama Zopa's directive, have stopped their practice?
Title: Re: Kopan Monks Divided
Post by: honeydakini on March 15, 2010, 02:08:23 PM

In the meantime though, would Lama Zopa bear the karma for the broken samaya of the monks who, under Lama Zopa's directive, have stopped their practice?


I do wonder sometimes if perhaps those who are already practising DS are continuing to do the practice secretly, so it is not really that any samaya with Lama Yeshe is broken... Perhaps the practice just stops at those who have not yet received the practice - so it is "no loss" to them, if you know what I mean? i  suppose there is no way of knowing this and I am just purely conjecturing. Still, the repercussions for FPMT are massive because whether they are "old" or "new" students, their root lama, Lama Yeshe / Osel is not with them, probably by this broken samaya.

So how would this work? Wouldn't it take a massive amount to build back this samaya? And mightn't it be too late by then since Lama Osel is already clearly manifesting signs of going further and further away from his students?
Title: Re: Kopan Monks Divided
Post by: LosangKhyentse on March 15, 2010, 09:55:49 PM
The situation at Kopan is very sad. I was struck by what TK pointed out about if we change the practice our own lama gave us because another lama says so, then when this other lama passes on or another lama tells us otherwise, we change again? That is not logical at all and shows the one's practice has no firm foundation to be abandoned so easily.

It is interesting that while Lama Zopa advocates abandoning Shugden practice, he simply expresses it as an extension of his loyalty to HH Dalai Lama rather than being critical of Shugden:

In the FPMT (Foundation for the Preservation of the Mahayana Tradition) Handbook, Lama Zopa says:

“All those who offer service or teach in FPMT centers are committed to follow the advice of His Holiness the Dalai Lama. As an example, His Holiness has prohibited the practice of the so-called protector, Do Gyel (Shugden), so teachers or others affiliated with the FPMT should not engage in this practice.”

in his advice book (which is posted on this website too [url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1166[/url]), he states that he has imposed not engaging in Shugden practice  because HH the Dalai Lama said so and NOT because of anything wrong with Shugden practice as a whole:

Therefore, it becomes very important to support His Holiness and to fulfil His Holiness’ wishes. For that reason, Kopan Monastery stopped doing this practice. This was done for His Holiness. This does not mean that Pabongka Dechen Nyingpo, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche, and His Holiness Zong Rinpoche have made mistakes. It does not mean they are wrong. Nor does one have to look at the protector as evil.

It would have been better for FPMT if Lama Zopa had kept Shugden practice and many might say that Lama Zopa sold out Lama Yeshe because of following HH Dalai Lama's directive. However, i do hope that Lama Zopa himself is still practising in private and when the ban is lifted or fades, he will be able to be public about it.

In the meantime though, would Lama Zopa bear the karma for the broken samaya of the monks who, under Lama Zopa's directive, have stopped their practice?



Very good points. I like the way you wrote it clearly and easily which shows you have understood 'the whole giving up on Shugden in kopan' issue. Kopan is just one of the more prominent examples. There are others who have sadly done the same.Thanks  




Title: Re: Kopan Monks Divided
Post by: thor on March 16, 2010, 12:04:32 PM
The situation at Kopan is very sad. I was struck by what TK pointed out about if we change the practice our own lama gave us because another lama says so, then when this other lama passes on or another lama tells us otherwise, we change again? That is not logical at all and shows the one's practice has no firm foundation to be abandoned so easily.

It is interesting that while Lama Zopa advocates abandoning Shugden practice, he simply expresses it as an extension of his loyalty to HH Dalai Lama rather than being critical of Shugden:

In the FPMT (Foundation for the Preservation of the Mahayana Tradition) Handbook, Lama Zopa says:

“All those who offer service or teach in FPMT centers are committed to follow the advice of His Holiness the Dalai Lama. As an example, His Holiness has prohibited the practice of the so-called protector, Do Gyel (Shugden), so teachers or others affiliated with the FPMT should not engage in this practice.”

in his advice book (which is posted on this website too [url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1166[/url]), he states that he has imposed not engaging in Shugden practice  because HH the Dalai Lama said so and NOT because of anything wrong with Shugden practice as a whole:

Therefore, it becomes very important to support His Holiness and to fulfil His Holiness’ wishes. For that reason, Kopan Monastery stopped doing this practice. This was done for His Holiness. This does not mean that Pabongka Dechen Nyingpo, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche, and His Holiness Zong Rinpoche have made mistakes. It does not mean they are wrong. Nor does one have to look at the protector as evil.

It would have been better for FPMT if Lama Zopa had kept Shugden practice and many might say that Lama Zopa sold out Lama Yeshe because of following HH Dalai Lama's directive. However, i do hope that Lama Zopa himself is still practising in private and when the ban is lifted or fades, he will be able to be public about it.

In the meantime though, would Lama Zopa bear the karma for the broken samaya of the monks who, under Lama Zopa's directive, have stopped their practice?



If FPMT students followed the example of Lama Zopa and abandoned the practice of Shugden for the purposes of supporting Dalai Lama, that would be less damaging than going on Shugden witch hunts and creating divides in other pro-Shugden centres.

Imagine if Lama Osel did return to the helm of FPMT despite their broken samaya with Lama Yeshe. Imagine if Lama Osel practiced Dorje Shugden? What would the students do?

Read Lama Zopa's advice book carefully and you'll see that his message fluctuates from "support the Dalai Lama" to "repair your connection with your [pro-Shugden] root Guru". Conflicting isnt it? Lama Zopa is subtly sitting on the fence and I hope his students see that and lessen their hard-line approach.
 
You can't bargain with karma and samaya.

Title: Re: Kopan Monks Divided
Post by: honeydakini on March 16, 2010, 02:21:30 PM
I found this article on the FPMT website, part of a much longer article: http://www.lamayeshe.com/index.php?sect=article&id=335

Among other advice regarding Guru Devotion and aspects of practice, Lama Zopa advises his students to follow His Holiness' advice and not practice Dorje Shugden. His reasons are explained below.

what is interesting to note is that throughout his explanation and advice, Lama Zopa does not speak negatively against Dorje Shugden but takes this approach of respecting the Dalai Lama and focuses on praising his qualities.

Dorje Shugden     
[posted Oct 2009]
Rinpoche gave the following talk on the Dharma protector practice, Dorje Shugden. First he talked about the importance of compassion and our responsibility for leading all sentient beings to enlightenment. To do that, we need first to become enlightened ourselves. In order to do that, we have to complete the entire path to enlightenment, the root of which is guru devotion. Then Rinpoche talked about the qualities of the guru, including the ten qualities from the Abhisamayalankara and the twenty qualities required of a tantric guru.

If you are making a new Dharma connection with a teacher, aside from the other qualities of the teacher that you should check, you should also examine the teacher to make sure that he or she is in harmony with His Holiness Dalai Lama regarding the practice of what is called döl-gyäl, the protector Shugden. Make sure that the teacher does not do this practice. These days, that is an extra analysis you should make. In that way, you’ll avoid problems in the future.

Recently, I also introduced a new guideline for the protection of the Dharma centers and their students, which is not to invite to the center teachers who do the protector practice and are therefore against His Holiness the Dalai Lama. However, this doesn’t include gurus who may have practiced the protector in the past. It doesn’t mean that they’re bad. I’m not saying that. If you have already made a Dharma connection with such teachers and you criticize them or give them up, that is totally incorrect; that is opposite to lam-rim practice. The lam-rim, sutra, and tantra teachings all explain how to practice guru devotion so that we can avoid creating such heavy negative karmas as criticizing our gurus. It’s for our benefit. Since we disciples want profit, not loss, since we aspire to achieve the highest profit, enlightenment, the complete qualities of cessation and realization, it is crucial to know how to practice guru devotion.

If those gurus who used to do the practice still had the same aspect now, if they were still alive in that aspect, they would also change. For example, His Holiness himself did the practice in Tibet for a short while, but after extensive analysis, checking many experiences and signs, and considering the advice of many other high lamas who advised not to do the practice, His Holiness also decided against it.

It is not only His Holiness who is saying not to do this practice. Before His Holiness, many other high lamas, holders of the entire Buddhadharma, also instructed their monasteries and students not to do this practice. After checking in many ways, His Holiness came to the conclusion that for the benefit of individual people as well as the world in general, he would stop doing this practice and also advised others to stop. Therefore, if those gurus who did the practice still had the same aspect, they would stop. Also, many gurus, many great teachers who are still living, have stopped as well, even though they used to do the practice before.

Even though many people, groups, and monasteries have asked His Holiness to change his advice on this, he has remained firm. Since he arrived at his decision through many years’ analysis, there has been no change; His Holiness always says the same thing in this regard. As His Holiness has said in many teachings, he will never change his opinion on this matter. If His Holiness the Dalai Lama is not Chenrezig, if he’s not Buddha, who else is there in the world that you can point to as Buddha? If His Holiness is not the Buddha of Compassion, then it’s a mistake to call other lamas Buddha, who are said to be incarnations of a Buddha.
Title: Re: Kopan Monks Divided
Post by: Zhalmed Pawo on March 16, 2010, 03:01:10 PM
Among other advice regarding Guru Devotion and aspects of practice, Lama Zopa advises his students to follow His Holiness' advice and not practice Dorje Shugden. His reasons are explained below.

what is interesting to note is that throughout his explanation and advice, Lama Zopa does not speak negatively against Dorje Shugden but takes this approach of respecting the Dalai Lama and focuses on praising his qualities.

While it is wonderful to see that he still feels the samaya, by not speaking against the teachings of his Lamas directly by avoiding saying anything negative about DS, there is the worrisome aspect of his deferring to authorities alone. All the praises about the DL seem to be here simply "arguments from authority". It is as if he simply does not have any good reasons for swiping DS away from FPMT except that "this wonderful big honcho in Dharamsala wishes it, so can't you all just see how great this honcho is, and obey?!"

As I see it, while he still tries to bow to the tradition he received, he has nevertheless ceased to bow to wisdom but is opting to bow to the Throne. When Authority Figures become more important that reason and wisdom, then 'there is something rotten in Denmark'.
Title: Re: Kopan Monks Divided
Post by: crazycloud on March 16, 2010, 03:30:04 PM
The Dalai Lama is his Root Guru now, what can you do?
Title: Re: Kopan Monks Divided
Post by: Lee Dhi on March 16, 2010, 04:55:29 PM
This is the first time I am learning in detail about Lama Zopa’s decision for FPMT to stop the practice of Dorje Shugden. So, once again, thanks for sharing your very sound points of views!

After reading the postings, I just thought of the “story” of H.H Gaden Trisur Rinpoche who previously denounced Dorje Shugden and recently defected from Ganden Shartse Monastery to Shar Ganden Monastery, where Dorje Shugden is practiced openly.

In a video on YouTube (Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden Part 1, 2 and 3), one of the harshest suffering Dharma practitioners has to confront was in the choice between Dorje Shugden and Dalai Lama. Perhaps, to reduce the pain for their students when making THE choice, both Lama Zopa and H.H Trisur Rinpoche took the lead in making the decision to (TEMPORARILY) stop their practice of Dorje Shugden.

As they are both attained, they may be able to see the bigger picture: when the time is right, they will be able to embrace their Protector again. H.H Trisur Rinpoche’s time came when his term as Gaden Tripa ended. Maybe Lama Zopa’s will come when the Dalai Lama passes away (with due respect). 

Some other possible reasons I thought of to support the “temporary” choice are:

1)   As Dorje Shugden is a Buddha who exists for the benefit of all sentient beings. So, if the long-term decision to stop DS practice could be of greater benefit, DS will accept. Based on result, the ban of DS has caused great awareness and embracement of his practice ?
2)   Dalai Lama is the official representative of Buddhadharma in the international, worldly arena. Therefore, it was necessary that his position be guarded as he makes controversial decision in his strategy to spread of the Dharma for the benefit of all sentient beings. * Reasons for Dalai Lama to ban DS is ingeniously presented in TK’s posting WHY DORJE SHUGDEN HAS TO BE THE BAD GUY.

My thoughts above do not represent that I condone to the split among the Kopan monks. My thoughts above stem from my hope and faith that maybe Lama Zopa together with many other high Lamas are all waiting for the time when Dorje Shugden returns to mainstream Dharma practice and they can, once again, openly worship him with great reverence!
Title: Re: Kopan Monks Divided
Post by: a friend on March 16, 2010, 09:26:56 PM

Dear Lee Dhi,

I suggest that you read all the posts where Beggar, TK´s and the Noobs' position maintaining that there is some type of divine higher purpose for the sacrilege of the ban is refuted.
It has been refuted, please read the posts. TK is not going to be offended, he is happy just to read what we have to say. So I'm going to state it again, that view about a higher purpose for the ban is a wrong view.

It´s a wrong view because it attacks, undermines, the Buddha´s basic action. The basic enlightened deed of a Buddha, any Buddha, is to teach what we have to keep and what we have to abandon. To maintain that something so wrong as the ban, so wrong as the way the person who dictated it treated his own Lama has a higher purpose is to maintain that Buddhas can teach what is wrong, that Buddhas can teach what produces suffering, which is a horrendous thing to say about a Buddha.

I understand the need for clinging to such view. One of the reasons for doing that is the Dalai Lama's status as the icon of the Tibetan nation (not the official representative of Buddhadharma in the world, thank heavens he is not that, not at all) and because of his role as their leader Tibetans need to defend his image in their own hearts.

Just ponder what it would entail that Buddhas acted creating such confusion, giving such bad advice and such bad example, there would not be a path for us to get out of samsara, no path at all. Our Buddhas, when they showed themselves as Buddhas, never ever acted like that. Lord Shakyamuni didn´t act like that, Lord Atisha didn´t act like that, Lord Tsongkhapa didn´t act like that. That´s enough for us to know.



Title: Re: Kopan Monks Divided
Post by: LosangKhyentse on March 16, 2010, 10:47:07 PM
Dear A Friend,

You are absolutely right, I am very happy to read everyone's thoughts, views, and ideas. It does not matter if they are different than mine. Because everyone has intelligence and they have to eventually figure things out for themselves, but before that happens, we have to rely on the kindness of everyone's input and listen carefully. We must listen to everyone's input with deep respect whether it matches our own views or not. I do not get offended if others say my view is wrong. Because sometimes it could be. And that is fine.

I love the sharing on this forum. It will be sad in one way when Ds's ban is lifted and we don't need this forum anymore. It will be like close dharma ppl parting. But perhaps we can all meet in person that time. Or this forum evolves into more and then when we look at the older threads, it will awaken many emotions and thoughts. I look forward to that.


Tk
Title: Re: Kopan Monks Divided
Post by: Geronimo on March 16, 2010, 11:15:00 PM
We can celebrate the Resolution of this Unprecedented Schism by creating a Festival. A festival where all can come together in the Mountains and watch the Performance of the Dance of a Thousand Dieties. It's been a hundred years since this has taken place.
What do you think of that?
I hope TK is right and Rainbows and Water Falls feed the New Spring Of Buddhism.
I for one can more easily see Je T'Songkhapa and His Sons sitting on their dais radiating colorful array of lights that bring a brillance to the Dharma Protector Shri Dorje Shugden and Her Majesty Vajrayoginni at the threshold of my mind's gate.
The Teachings clarify and mystify,keeping it simple and recite the prayers will bring all of us closer.
 Maybe this forum will change before long. Then we can as other suggest focus entirely our energies and love into practicing the dharma and see what this brings. One thing is for certain, this schism has brought the cream to the top with all the Practioners really having their mettle tested through the Rings Of Fire has created a whole new generation of DEDICATED PRACTIONERS. Willing to lie down their lives to Protect the Lineage of Our Masters. Understanding what true freedom is really made, the dharma, the foundation the core to make us rise above our lesser selves and we aspire to magnificence.
No slackers here. No we have a core that has spread around the world and even brought the Protection of Lord Shugden to the Chinese nation.
We are on a roll and soon we will hear from the Courts in New Delhi.
One way or another, we have already won.
We are just getting started.

"It does not matter if they are different than mine. Because everyone has intelligence and they have to eventually figure things out for themselves, but before that happens, we have to rely on the kindness of everyone's input and listen carefully. We must listen to everyone's input with deep respect whether it matches our own views or not. I do not get offended if others say my view is wrong. Because sometimes it could be. And that is fine."
tk is so cool! I always love what tk says in equaniminous ways.

WSS spearheads the way to Stand for All of Our Freedoms.

Title: Re: Kopan Monks Divided
Post by: Lineageholder on March 17, 2010, 09:05:36 AM
It looks like www.lamayeshe.com (created by FPMT) has anti-Shugden material.

Their website has changed a lot.  Under 'teachings' --> 'Lineage lamas' there used to be a lot of picture of lineages Gurus including Trijang Rinpoche and Je Pabongkhapa, but now it's a list of articles, the latter ones being gushing fanboy expositions of how wonderful the Dalai Lama is, urgh, it makes me want to vomit!

It's shameful that in the list of 'teachers' the Dalai Lama comes first, then Lama Yeshe.  No wonder Lama Osel, if he is the genuine tulku of Lama Yeshe wants nothing to do with them - they've become a political tradition of Buddhism.  If he's in a pure land somewhere, no doubt he is sadly shaking his head and wondering how all his hard work of bringing Je Tsongkhapa's tradition to Westerners has turned into this travesty of mixing religion and politics.

I believe this question is also asked with a dubious intention:

7. I have been practicing within another school of Buddhism for about a year, but when I first got into Tibetan Buddhism, I spontaneously put up pictures of Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa Rinpoche and put offerings before them. My question is that I don’t want to break any vows by studying with a teacher other than my root guru, which I am seriously contemplating as I FEEL that your lineage is the one.

In other words, 'how can I abandon my root Guru without creating negative karma and go onto your side, guys?'

I wonder why this question is asked and replied to?....hmmmmm  ::)  and people criticise the NKT for their missionary zeal!
Title: Re: Kopan Monks Divided
Post by: wang on March 17, 2010, 09:18:36 AM
Wouldn't it go too extreme?

As you quoted, it start with 'I have been practicing within another school of Buddhism for about a year,...', how many guys not start with approaching multi-lineage at the very beginning?  In Greater China where you can find all tradition's master, it looks be quite common(rather stick with one master and one lineage since day one is un-usual)...
Title: Re: Kopan Monks Divided
Post by: Lee Dhi on March 17, 2010, 05:05:01 PM
Dear A Friend,

Thank you for your respond and suggestion to read other posts. I have actually read some of them together with the respective rebuttals. After taking into consideration the different arguments and points of views, which are all sound and shared with sincerity, I still see the great possibility and have faith in this divine higher purpose.

Although I do agree with you that the act, which caused confusion, is not the path out of samsara. I believe the more important factor to consider is the motivation behind the act. Sometimes, the methods chosen may not completely or immediately cause the intended consequence. As to what H.H's true motivation is, no sentient being can determine with complete certainty. Only the final result can act as some sort of indication. With this, I refer to Lhakpa Gyaltshen's comment that the confusion and controversy has created a "whole new generation of dedicated practitioners" and caused Dorje Shugden worship to flourish in China. Although this consequence is imperfect (as there is still suffering experienced by some), it is pretty beneficial to the purpose of turning the wheel of Dharma.

With this said, I agree and am happy to accept your suggestion to continue reading with an open mind and develop a more rounded view point about Dharma and our Protector -  Dorje Shugden.

I thank you again for giving me another angle of contemplation. This is the greatness of this powerful forum! I do not think that the purpose of this forum will end as there is always value to be created by a medium that brings so much far-reaching benefit to so many people.


 
Title: Re: Kopan Monks Divided
Post by: a friend on March 17, 2010, 08:37:25 PM

Dear Lee Dhi,

How about taking into consideration what the Dalai Lama said?
To proclaim a higher purpose is not only a type of terrible disrespect towards the Buddhas,
it´s also a total lack of respect for the Dalai Lama as a person.
Do you understand the difference between interpretive and definitive? This is a very important distinction.
The Dalai Lama stopped short those who wanted to find purposes to his actions about the Protector, and said that what he was doing was definitive, not interpretive.
He himself barred the way for you or anybody else to try to interpret what he did in a different way.
A "definitive meaning" means that the meaning matches exactly what is being said.
So if he himself precludes an interpretive meaning, why insist on disrespecting the Buddhas and disrespecting the Dalai Lama with rosy interpretations?
Sorry, my "why" was just rethorical. I know the various answers to my "why" ... from patriotic hope to feelgood, and so on and so forth ...

 
Title: Re: Kopan Monks Divided
Post by: thor on March 18, 2010, 01:52:38 AM
The Dalai Lama is his Root Guru now, what can you do?

What do you mean Dalai Lama is his root Guru now? Isnt Lama Yeshe his root Guru? [sorry for the ignorance btw]
Title: Re: Kopan Monks Divided
Post by: WisdomBeing on March 18, 2010, 09:45:26 AM
Quote
one of the harshest suffering Dharma practitioners has to confront was in the choice between Dorje Shugden and Dalai Lama.

Sorry to have to say this, but for many the choice is not between Dorje Shugden and the Dalai Lama, it is between Dorje Shugden and their meal ticket (Dalai Lama).  That is the reality.

For the sake of sponsorship, some DS practitioners will do the unthinkable and denounce their own practice given by their Gurus. However, looking at Serpom and Shar Gaden, it doesn't look like there is a lack of sponsorship for those who wish to openly practice Shugden.

Some lamas in the monastery may not abandon their practice but do it privately although it is common knowledge that they are still maintaining their practice. While some criticise them for pretending to abide by the ban for the sake of not losing sponsorship or support, i have heard that some of these lamas are advised by Dorje Shugden NOT to be open with their practice when they would have happily gone to Shar Gaden or Serpom. So i think that it would be wisest for us, who do not know people's motive, to not judge them in case we judge wrongly (which is highly likely!)

Title: Re: Kopan Monks Divided
Post by: Geronimo on March 19, 2010, 02:51:26 AM
In Praise Of The Incomparable Tsongkhapa

By Gyalwa Mikyo Dorje, the Eighth Karmapa (1507 – 1554

Once when Gyalwa Mikyo Dorje was travelling through the Charida Pass, thoughts of the incomparable Tsongkhapa welled up within him. Overcome by profound faith, he was moved to compose this poem.



At a time when nearly all in this Northern Land
Were living in utter contradiction to Dharma,
Without illusion, O Tsongkhapa, you polished the teachings.
Hence I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.



When the teachings of the Sakya, Kargu, Kadam
And Nyingma sects in Tibet were declining,
You, O Tsongkhapa, revived Buddha's Doctrine,
Hence I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.



Manjushri, the Bodhisattva of Wisdom, gave to you
Special instructions on the thought of Nagarjuna.
O Tsongkhapa, upholder of the Middle Way,
I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.



"Mind and form are not empty of their own natures
But are empty of truly existent mind and form",
You, O Tsongkhapa, are Tibet's chief exponent of voidness,
Hence I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.



In merely a few years you filled
The land from China to India
With peerless holders of the saffron robes.
Hence I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.



Those who become your followers
And look to you and your teachings
Are never again disappointed or forsaken.
Hence I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.



The trainees who walk in your footsteps
Breath the fresh air of the Great Way.
They would die for the good of the world.
Hence I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.



Anyone who disparages your doctrine must face
The terrible wrath of the Dharma protectors.
O Tsongkhapa, who abides in truth's power,
I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.



In person and in dreams you come to those
Who but once recollect your image.
O Tsongkhapa, who watches with compassionate eyes.
I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.



In order to civilize men and spirits you spread
Your teachings through Kham, Mongolia and Turkestan:
O Tsongkhapa, subduer of savages,
I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.



For men coarse and far from the Way, you dispel
Mental clouds, evils and bad karma.
O Tsongkhapa, who bestows quick progress,
I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.



Those who take heartfelt Refuge in you,
Even those with no hope for now or hereafter,
O Tsongkhapa, have their every wish fulfilled.
Hence I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.



Having exposed false teachings transgressing
The excellent ways well shown by Buddha,
You firmly established your Bold Doctrine.
Hence I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.



Manifesting sublime austerity and discipline,
The form and fragrance of your life was incomparable.
O Tsongkhapa, controlled one pleasing to the Buddhas,
I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.



By the strength of the sons of your lineage
And by my having faithfully offered this praise,
May the enlightened activity of Buddha Shakyamuni
Pervade the earth for ages to come.[/
b]
Title: Re: Kopan Monks Divided
Post by: Big Uncle on March 19, 2010, 04:29:49 AM
This Kopan Incidence reminds me of the Wheel of Sharp Weapons. I quote the two stanzas here for everybody's perusal that i feel is related to it:-

(21) When our minds are disturbed and we feel great frustration
That things never happen the may that we wish,
This is the wheel of sharp weapons returning
Full circle upon us from wrongs we have done.
Till now we have caused interfering disturbance
When others were focused on virtuous acts;
Hereafter let's stop causing such interruption.

(22) When nothing we do ever pleases our Gurus,
This is the wheel of sharp weapons returning
Full circle upon us from wrongs we have done.
Till now with our Gurus we have feigned pious manners,
But out of their presence have reverted to sin.
Hereafter let's try to be less hypocritical
And take all the teachings sincerely to heart.
Title: Re: Kopan Monks Divided
Post by: honeydakini on March 20, 2010, 05:43:45 PM
Quote
one of the harshest suffering Dharma practitioners has to confront was in the choice between Dorje Shugden and Dalai Lama.

Sorry to have to say this, but for many the choice is not between Dorje Shugden and the Dalai Lama, it is between Dorje Shugden and their meal ticket (Dalai Lama).  That is the reality.

For the sake of sponsorship, some DS practitioners will do the unthinkable and denounce their own practice given by their Gurus. However, looking at Serpom and Shar Gaden, it doesn't look like there is a lack of sponsorship for those who wish to openly practice Shugden.

Some lamas in the monastery may not abandon their practice but do it privately although it is common knowledge that they are still maintaining their practice. While some criticise them for pretending to abide by the ban for the sake of not losing sponsorship or support, i have heard that some of these lamas are advised by Dorje Shugden NOT to be open with their practice when they would have happily gone to Shar Gaden or Serpom. So i think that it would be wisest for us, who do not know people's motive, to not judge them in case we judge wrongly (which is highly likely!)



Wow. that's a strong statement re: the meal ticket.

I have to agree with wisdombeing however. I'm sure, more than anything, you would acknowledge that the  struggle arises because there is a deeply ingrained issue of samaya for many practitioners - between themselves and both Dorje Shugden and Dalai Lama. I think just because someone stands up for the dalai lama or doesn't speak out against him it doesn't mean it's because he's 1) political motivated 2) bribed 3) relying on Dalai Lama for money / resources/ fame / good reputation etc

There are many out there who are torn because within them, they cannot think of either Dorje Shugden nor the dalai lama as wrong or bad. For many, the whole basis of their faith and belief in goodness rests simultaneously both in Dorje Shugden and in Dalai Lama as their Guru. So how do you pick? It is a difficult option because literally, it is making you choose between what has now been newly defined for you as "good" and "evil" and forcing you to betray one side or the other. It's like trying to choose between which parent you'd rather follow? abandon your mother or your child?

Then there is the third level - where one lama asks you to practice, and another (dalai lama) tells you not to - so now you have to pick: Lama #1 or Lama #2. Either way you're breaking your samaya, made to feel like you're betraying one side and losing something so precious to you all your life.

Far more than a meal ticket.
Title: Re: Kopan Monks Divided
Post by: DSFriend on March 20, 2010, 06:23:53 PM
Following on what TK has presented, logically if a students drop their practice for the reasons stated (due to another famous lama or their own lama passing away) there will no longer be any lineage holders to pass on these sacred practices. The more I think about it, the more alarming it becomes in my mind.
Title: Re: Kopan Monks Divided
Post by: DSFriend on March 20, 2010, 06:51:59 PM

I love the sharing on this forum. It will be sad in one way when Ds's ban is lifted and we don't need this forum anymore. It will be like close dharma ppl parting. But perhaps we can all meet in person that time. Or this forum evolves into more and then when we look at the older threads, it will awaken many emotions and thoughts. I look forward to that.

Tk

This website and forum have been an oasis to draw strength from, an incredible source of knowledge and a platform to improve analytical and debate skills. Thank you TK, Lhakpa Gyaltshen, Thom, Trinley Kalsang and all the newly joined friends...your open and sincere sharing has made a huge difference in my mind.
Title: Re: Kopan Monks Divided
Post by: DSFriend on March 21, 2010, 06:30:45 PM
From reading TK's post of the potential future of FPMT and what is happening now to kopan, what can be done to mend the broken samaya and the negativity from schism?  Lama Yeshe is so compassionate to incarnate back and to "allow" himself to be found. He is definitely will benefit others, but will the thousands of FPMT be involved or miss out.. I do hope it will not be too late. What will happen when Lama Zopa passes on (i do hope he live a long life)
Title: Re: Kopan Monks Divided
Post by: honeydakini on March 22, 2010, 04:33:48 PM
From reading TK's post of the potential future of FPMT and what is happening now to kopan, what can be done to mend the broken samaya and the negativity from schism?  Lama Yeshe is so compassionate to incarnate back and to "allow" himself to be found. He is definitely will benefit others, but will the thousands of FPMT be involved or miss out.. I do hope it will not be too late. What will happen when Lama Zopa passes on (i do hope he live a long life)

That's an interesting point... i.e how to retract and go back to mend the samaya?

As an eternal optimist, I'd like to believe that the kopan monks and even Lama Zopa himself are continuing their Dharmapala practice but secretly. From the statements they have made regarding DS, it doesn't seem that they are openly putting down, criticising or negating the practice but rather taking the stance that they wish to respect the Dalai Lama's orders at this time. In this way, I believe that perhaps this is what is needed for kopan and their organisation at this time - perhaps even Lama Yeshe (Lama Osel) is manifesting distance for a reason at this time... but that it may clear and all will come to light again as the ban lessens.

Like i said... eternal optimist...   :D
Title: Re: Kopan Monks Divided
Post by: Big Uncle on March 23, 2010, 01:06:54 PM
I think we should deliberate so much about Kopan because I am sure Lama Zopa or other monks there are weighting things in their minds about the issues. They would probably be thinking about the best course of action and I am sure their leaders would be doing their best to resolve the differences. But if it was me, I would think that the monastery would definitely need to remedy the immediate differences and go on a massive campaign to bring harmony towards others to offset the negative karma. However, the best way would be to repair it with the Protector and seize any negative activities against Dorje Shugden practitioners.
Title: Re: Kopan Monks Divided
Post by: Dondrup Shugden on March 03, 2015, 07:12:37 AM
Buddhism always teaches Harmony, so is the worship of Dorje Shugden a disruption to Harmony in FMPT?

From my reading and understanding of the comments on this article, the whole issue seem to be whether the Kopan monks will support the Dalai Lama's wishes rather then that of their founder Lama Yeshe.Given that Lama Zopa did not speak against worship of Dorje Shugden.

It is then concluded that it is the Ban that is divisive and not the worship of DS.

The incarnation of Lama Yeshe is recognised but he has not returned to the reigns of FMPT?  Why it is so?