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About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: mountains on January 10, 2019, 01:16:20 PM

Title: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: mountains on January 10, 2019, 01:16:20 PM
Dear Tibetan government-in-exile (Dharamsala),

Sharmapa Rinpoche is the highest authority in the Karma Kagyu after Karmapa. By age old tradition, Sharmapa is the one that confirms the real incarnation of Karmapa. He recognized Thaye Dorje as the genuine Karmapa. But Dalai Lama endorsed Orgyen Trinley as the real Karmapa. Dalai Lama is a great lama but there has never been a tradition of him recognizing a Karmapa.

Both 'Karmapas' have big followings in and out of Tibet. So which one should we follow? We have to follow the genuine Karmapa. If we follow the fake one, we will get fake teachings, fake lineage and no results. We can even take rebirth in the lower realms.

Only the Tibetan leaders can tell us which is the real Karmapa. You have told us which one is the real Panchen Lama. We follow the Panchen of your choosing. Since then we have condemned China and condemned the fake Panchen Lama. Now it is the same situation with Karmapa. We have denounce the fake Karmapa and ask him to step down. He is destroying the Karma Kagyu Lineage.

This issue has torn the Karma Kagyu sect in half. There are many who are so confused and some gave up Tibetan Buddhism altogether because of this. We must solve the confusion. This does not look good for the Tibetan government in exile because the confusion was started by Tibetan government. I support Dalai Lama and Tibetan government. But so many of us need to know the real Karmapa already. Don't remain silent. Which one is the real Karmapa.



Tibetan government in exile, you have created two Gelugs (Pro-Dorje Shugden and against), you have created two Panchen Rinpoches, two Karmapas, two Dromo Geshe Rinpoches, two Kundeling Rinpoches and so on. When are you going to solve all the confusion. You are destroying Tibetan Buddhism.


VERY INTERESTING ARTICLE ON THIS SITUATION HERE- https://bit.ly/2SMNQe1

[I found these memes and message floating around on the internet and thought to share here]
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: mountains on January 10, 2019, 02:13:24 PM
Karmapa Thaye Dorje recognized by Sharmar Rinpoche is heading the Kagyu Monlam 2018. Is he the real Karmapa. Or is Ogyen Trinley the real one? Which one is it?

Pictures of Karmapa Thaye Dorje heading the Kagyu Monlam festival in Bodhgaya, India 2108 - https://www.karmapa.org/kagyu-monlam-2018-the-story-so-far-photos/ (https://www.karmapa.org/kagyu-monlam-2018-the-story-so-far-photos/)
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Ringo Starr on January 10, 2019, 04:08:10 PM
Thank you so much for asking these questions which have been on my mind for quite a while.

The CTA or Tibetan government-in-exile which is an NGO really (No-Good Organization) who went about supporting and appointing all kinds of Tulkus including the "missing" Panchen Lama has not said a single thing about the not missing Panchen Lama although the Dalai Lama has confirmed, a couple of times and clearly, that there could be multiple incarnations of the same mindstream which is not limited.

With that also comes the question which the above have asked - which is the real Karmapa CTA?

Which?

Please answer for all to know ye almighty CTA.

Need to know. Really urgent.

I don't want to pray to the wrong, fake Karmapa - just as you have advised and enforced not to pray to the devil evil conniving dangerous bad terrible shorten the Dalai Lama's life DORJE SHUGDEN.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Lawrence L on January 10, 2019, 06:01:31 PM
The Tibetan leaders are very sneaky. When it comes to the 2 Panchen Lamas controversy, they quickly condemn one of the two so strongly, riding on the anti China sentiment to fulfil their selfish agenda at the cost of sacrificing Tibetan Buddhism.

They are doing the same to the Karma Kagyu sect. They created the situation of having 2, no, in fact 3 Karmapas and they keep quiet for 2 decades, ignoring all the conflicts, confusion and chaos resulting from the controversy. Yet they happily play the role of policing religion affairs, telling the whole world, which deity is good and which is bad, for example the Dorje Shugden controversy. They said Dorje Shugden is evil and stop people from practicing it, and condemn and segregate the people who practice it.

Since they condemn one of the two Panchen Lamas, since they held the power to judge which deity is good or bad and are above all god, all Buddhas, all deities, they should also condemn the fake Karmapa (sorry to say), and it is time to tell which Karmapa is real and which is not! I thought this is what they should do? Since they ban Dorje Shugden, they can also ban the fake Karmapa. Tibetan leaders in Dharamsala, please don't be selective, don't hide.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Lawrence L on January 10, 2019, 06:17:03 PM
Thank you so much for asking these questions which have been on my mind for quite a while.

The CTA or Tibetan government-in-exile which is an NGO really (No-Good Organization) who went about supporting and appointing all kinds of Tulkus including the "missing" Panchen Lama has not said a single thing about the not missing Panchen Lama although the Dalai Lama has confirmed, a couple of times and clearly, that there could be multiple incarnations of the same mindstream which is not limited.

With that also comes the question which the above have asked - which is the real Karmapa CTA?

Which?

Please answer for all to know ye almighty CTA.

Need to know. Really urgent.

I don't want to pray to the wrong, fake Karmapa - just as you have advised and enforced not to pray to the devil evil conniving dangerous bad terrible shorten the Dalai Lama's life DORJE SHUGDEN.

All these fake Panchen, fake Karmapa problems are so unnecessary and pointless. It brings no good but harm. Perhaps we should call the Tibetan leaders in Dharamsala as fake government because they did and doing such a lousy job. Close down Dharamsala office and I guess all these problems will be solved.   ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Lawrence L on January 10, 2019, 06:22:36 PM
Karmapa Thaye Dorje recognized by Sharmar Rinpoche is heading the Kagyu Monlam 2018. Is he the real Karmapa. Or is Ogyen Trinley the real one? Which one is it?

Pictures of Karmapa Thaye Dorje heading the Kagyu Monlam festival in Bodhgaya, India 2108 - https://www.karmapa.org/kagyu-monlam-2018-the-story-so-far-photos/ (https://www.karmapa.org/kagyu-monlam-2018-the-story-so-far-photos/)

The Dharamsala office has no gut to tell which Karmapa is the real one because they dare not to offend the followers of whichever Karmapa, yet they bully the Dorje Shugden practitioners because they conveniently labeled them as Chinese spies and ride on the anti China sentiment. So much hypocrisy and it is tiring to see the stunts pulled by the Dharamsala office.    >:(

Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: phyag na rlangs pa on January 10, 2019, 06:54:09 PM
When it suits them, one is fake and one is real.

Like the Panchen Lama controversy, in the beginning the Chinese Panchen Rinpoche was declared fake but now that he is doing well and become popular along with the fact that China is stronger and Tibetans are doing well and happy in the Tibetan Autonomous Region, and because the CTA has lost and there is now way for them into Tibet except through China, Dalai Lama is saying that Chinese Panchen Rinpoche is real because there can be more than one incarnation.

When it suits them, one is fake and one is real.

Before, when Dalai Lama recognised Orgyen Trinley, he was a young man who through Tai Situpa, could be controlled and the CTA thought they can control the Kagyupas BUT NOW that Karmapa Orgyen Trinley has decided that enough is enough and refusing to be another CTA puppet, cutting away the CTA's strings on him by becoming a citizen of Dominica, SUDDENLY the Dalai Lama goes to Bodhgaya Kagyu Monlam to "meet Karmapa Thaye Dorje".

So, is Thaye Dorje the real Karmapa or not?

The CTA and Dalai Lama must declare who the REAL KARMAPA is and stop playing the Kagyu sect and their followers.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Jushri on January 10, 2019, 07:21:12 PM
Of course, CTA can help. It's a matter of if they want to or how much money they will get from this.

If CTA doesn't do anything to fix this Karmapa issue, it will just show again that CTA does not care about their own people. CTA have poked their noses onto spiritual affairs which should NOT have been the case at all as CTA people like Lobsang Sangay know nuts about spirituality and couldn't be bothered about his people if it doesn't help his bank account grow even more.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: DharmaSpace on January 10, 2019, 07:23:35 PM
As mountains said it, all these divide and conquer business is very damaging for Tibetan Buddhism.

Tibetan Buddhism is being destroyed from within.

CTA can do something really decent for once and recognize the true Karmapa. 

Else, their support from the Tibetans will erode away even more, CTA has lost many allies around the world, now they risk losing the very support that put them into power the Tibetans.

Bye bye CTA, if you don't manage to resolve the Karmapa issue once and for all. 
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: michaela on January 10, 2019, 10:30:16 PM
The Central Tibetan Administration (CTA) has been playing devide et impera politics for many years. What I see is when an influential lama passed away, They created two of everything (e.g., two Karmapas, two Panchen Lamas, two Serkong Rinpoche, two Domo Geshe Rinpoche, two Kundeling Rinpoche). Just like the invaders of the past, the CTA is doing this to weaken the influence of powerful lamas.

This is another proof that the CTA is not acting in the best interest of Tibetans and Tibetan Buddhism. This is not a smart move on their part because Tibetan Buddhism is their biggest assets and the only thing that is still growing within the Tibetan culture. This is what the Tibetans are known for. Many of their sponsors came forward because of their faith to the Dalai Lama or other high lamas, not so much because of the CTA's achievements and reputation. They may not realize it now, but the CTA is committing suicide by playing self-interest politics.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: pemachen on January 11, 2019, 01:05:47 AM
When it suits them, one is fake and one is real.

Before, when Dalai Lama recognised Orgyen Trinley, he was a young man who through Tai Situpa, could be controlled and the CTA thought they can control the Kagyupas BUT NOW that Karmapa Orgyen Trinley has decided that enough is enough and refusing to be another CTA puppet, cutting away the CTA's strings on him by becoming a citizen of Dominica, SUDDENLY the Dalai Lama goes to Bodhgaya Kagyu Monlam to "meet Karmapa Thaye Dorje".

So, is Thaye Dorje the real Karmapa or not?

The CTA and Dalai Lama must declare who the REAL KARMAPA is and stop playing the Kagyu sect and their followers.

You have a good point there, phyag na rlangs pa. Why is it after not contacting, and over 20 years of not recognising this Karmapa Thaye Dorje, suddenly there is a need to connect and want to 'meet'? The Central Tibetan Administration must think that Karmapa Thaye Dorje is stupid to not see what's the plot and intention behind this sudden urge to be friendly.

The good news is that Thaye Dorje, especially after suffering from being despised by the Central Tibetan Administration for over two decades, the Karmapa sees no need to being chummy with the Tibetan leadership in Dharamsala. This is perhaps why the two Karmapas took the bold step of meeting each other outside of the knowledge of the Central Tibetan Administration, publicly announcing their monumental meeting. I applaud them. Unity of a divided lineage is far more important than appeasing the rotten Tibetan leadership in Dharamsala. Now both Karmapas are free from encumbrances, especially Karmapa Ogyen Trinley who has stayed abroad for almost a year now, and has recently acquired a Dominican Republic passport.   8)
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Tracy on January 11, 2019, 02:08:53 AM
This is so confusing, there are 2 Panchen Lamas and 2 Karmapas. Which one is real? Since all Tibetan Buddhists have to listen to the Dalai Lama we have to just follow the one that is recognised by the Dalai Lama and the CTA. They have the responsibility to ensure the purity of a lineage just like how they are trying to preserve the purity of Gelug lineage by imposing a ban on Dorje Shugden practice.

All these years the Dalai Lama only endorses the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley. He always takes photos with the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley and wants him to become his successor. The Dalai Lama has not taken any photo with the Karmapa Thaye Dorje before, it is a clear indication he does not recognise the Karmapa Thaye Dorje. However, the thing has changed. Recently, the Dalai Lama graced the Kagyu Monlam Festival presided by the Karmapa Thaye Dorje.

How come there is a sudden change from the Dalai Lama? It is similar to how the Dalai Lama suddenly changed his tone on the Chinese recognised Panchen Lama. The Dalai Lama said the Chinese Panchen Lama could be real. Is the Dalai Lama trying to tell us the Karmapa Thaye Dorje is also real? Or is he trying to take revenge on the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley for running away from him and the CTA? Whatever it is, the Dalai Lama and the CTA have to let us know which is the real Karmapa so there is no more confusion.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Harold Musetescu on January 11, 2019, 02:39:41 AM
The real and only question should be,

 re: The Fake 14th Dalai Lama is destroying the precious Gelugpa lineage! Can't CTA help?

 8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Harold Musetescu on January 11, 2019, 03:03:10 AM
The 17th Karmapa Orgyen Trinley publicly turned his back on the 14th Dalai and his CTA in 2018.

At the 2018 Kagyu Monlan he publicly condemned the 5th Dalai Lama and his murderous ways against the Karma Kagyu.

This was a direct shot against the Dalai Lama lineage and his governments.

The rest of this article is from a article I posted here on this matter.

Quote
Harold Musetescu
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 445
View Profile  Personal Message (Offline)

17th Karmapa publicly condemns murderous 5th Dalai Lama
« on: March 09, 2018, 04:33:05 PM »
Quote
The following is a quote from part of  the 17th Karmapa's speech at the 2018 Monlam.

He publicly states that the 5th Dalai Lama and his murderous Mongolian Army friends lead by Gushen Khan destroyed Karma Kagyu monasteries and lineages.

Quote
Likewise, if you think about the history of the Kagyu lineage, and in particular the Karma Kamtsang, there have been many losses. For example, when the Mongol Gushen invaded, their armies razed many Karma Kamtsang monasteries and many lineages of practices and explanations were lost.
Unquote

You can find all this at Tsem Rinpoche's website under the title "Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje Explosive Special Message" dated March 09, 2018.

Finally we now see that even the 17th Karmapa stated that the Dalai Lama's lineage has engaged in the destruction of Monasteries and the Lineages.

He puts the blame squarely at the feet of the 5th Dalai Lama.

The same 5th Dalai Lama who attempted to murder Dorje Shugden with Fire Pujas.

The same 5th Dalai Lama who's Government was behind the MURDER of Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen.

We know what with 5th Dalai Lama did to the Sakya, Karma Kagyu, Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen and Dorje Shugden.

We know what the 13th Dalai Lama did to Tengyeling Monastery, His Holiness Demo Tulku, His Eminence Nyari Tulku, Methar, Kache (Tsiu) Marpo's Protector Chapel and the Tengyeling Oracle and Lineage.

We know what the 14th Dalai Lama has done to Dorje Shugden and his followers.

We know what the 14th Dalai Lama has done by creating fake anti Dorje Tulkus like the fake Dome Geshe Rinpoche and Serkong Dorje Chang.

Now we have the voice of the 17th Karmapa tell all the world what he thinks.

Praise to the 17th Karmapa Ogyen Trinley.
Unquote

Orgyen Trinley has now become a citizen of Dominica and has turned his back on the Dalai Lama and his CTA.

They in return are now courting Thaye Dorje to be their puppet with the carrot of recognizing him as the true Karmapa.

Their present to him for doing their bidding with be the keys to Rumtek Monastery.



Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Lawrence L on January 11, 2019, 09:49:18 AM
Sad to say the truth loud out - The Dharamsala office (Dalai Lama's office) is just using these high lamas to gain money, fame and support. Like for example, one of the two Karmapas must be the fake one. IF the fake one is going to be Ugyen Thrinley, obviously he was Dharamsala's puppet and I am glad he is out from India and Dharamsala office's control now.

Dharamsala office couldn't care less about what is happening with the Karma Kagyu's lineage. I guess they are now scratching head thinking how to deal with the incarnation of Sharmapa. Maybe the Dharamsala office is going to recognise their own Sharmapa?

Oh dear, please, not again! 3 Karmapas, 2 Sharmapas, 2 Panchens, 2 Dromo Geshes, 2 Kundelings...

Dharamsala office is annoying   

Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Pema8 on January 11, 2019, 02:14:56 PM
Why so much confusion. Isn't one Karmapa enough?? The CTA should stop this confusion and let the Karmapa and the lineage of the Karma Kagyu continue as it has been their tradition. There is no need for a Fake Karmapa! Why creating all these problems?
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Harold Musetescu on January 11, 2019, 02:45:01 PM
Why so much confusion. Isn't one Karmapa enough?? The CTA should stop this confusion and let the Karmapa and the lineage of the Karma Kagyu continue as it has been their tradition. There is no need for a Fake Karmapa! Why creating all these problems?

Which Karmapa is enough Pema8?????
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Joo Won on January 11, 2019, 04:12:53 PM


"Tibetan government in exile, you have created two Gelugs (Pro-Dorje Shugden and against), you have created two Panchen Rinpoches, two Karmapas, two Dromo Geshe Rinpoches, two Kundeling Rinpoches and so on. When are you going to solve all the confusion. You are destroying Tibetan Buddhism."

--->Tibetan leaders for decades keep saying DORJE SHUGDEN ppl divide Tibet, creates disharmony within Tibetans, now you see, who is actually the real bad guy? It's definitely TIBETAN LEADERS! Who is more evil and sneaky than Tibetan leaders, who stick their nose into Karma Kagyu's, Gelug's, and all the other Tibetan Buddhism lineages' affairs?

Tibetan leaders are the one who actually divide Tibetans, create disharmony. Their real motive behind is to divide and rule, to divide attention to their failure as a government but no care about her people, their welfare, their future. They just eat and eat money. Then when no money they move to oversea to study and retire, one good example is Dhardon Sharling!

Wake up Tibetans, and followers of all leneages, say NO and bye bye to CTA. No one needs a corrupted government like CTA.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: vajratruth on January 11, 2019, 04:37:19 PM
The 17th Karmapa Orgyen Trinley publicly turned his back on the 14th Dalai and his CTA in 2018.

At the 2018 Kagyu Monlan he publicly condemned the 5th Dalai Lama and his murderous ways against the Karma Kagyu.

This was a direct shot against the Dalai Lama lineage and his governments.

The rest of this article is from a article I posted here on this matter.

Quote
Harold Musetescu
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 445
View Profile  Personal Message (Offline)

17th Karmapa publicly condemns murderous 5th Dalai Lama
« on: March 09, 2018, 04:33:05 PM »
Quote
The following is a quote from part of  the 17th Karmapa's speech at the 2018 Monlam.

He publicly states that the 5th Dalai Lama and his murderous Mongolian Army friends lead by Gushen Khan destroyed Karma Kagyu monasteries and lineages.

Quote
Likewise, if you think about the history of the Kagyu lineage, and in particular the Karma Kamtsang, there have been many losses. For example, when the Mongol Gushen invaded, their armies razed many Karma Kamtsang monasteries and many lineages of practices and explanations were lost.
Unquote

You can find all this at Tsem Rinpoche's website under the title "Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje Explosive Special Message" dated March 09, 2018.

Finally we now see that even the 17th Karmapa stated that the Dalai Lama's lineage has engaged in the destruction of Monasteries and the Lineages.

He puts the blame squarely at the feet of the 5th Dalai Lama.

The same 5th Dalai Lama who attempted to murder Dorje Shugden with Fire Pujas.

The same 5th Dalai Lama who's Government was behind the MURDER of Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen.

We know what with 5th Dalai Lama did to the Sakya, Karma Kagyu, Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen and Dorje Shugden.

We know what the 13th Dalai Lama did to Tengyeling Monastery, His Holiness Demo Tulku, His Eminence Nyari Tulku, Methar, Kache (Tsiu) Marpo's Protector Chapel and the Tengyeling Oracle and Lineage.

We know what the 14th Dalai Lama has done to Dorje Shugden and his followers.

We know what the 14th Dalai Lama has done by creating fake anti Dorje Tulkus like the fake Dome Geshe Rinpoche and Serkong Dorje Chang.

Now we have the voice of the 17th Karmapa tell all the world what he thinks.

Praise to the 17th Karmapa Ogyen Trinley.
Unquote

Orgyen Trinley has now become a citizen of Dominica and has turned his back on the Dalai Lama and his CTA.

They in return are now courting Thaye Dorje to be their puppet with the carrot of recognizing him as the true Karmapa.

Their present to him for doing their bidding with be the keys to Rumtek Monastery.

Ogyen Trinley was right and the 5th Dalai Lama's government did aggressively usurp Karma Kagyu monasteries and assets. It wasn't even about religion or a believe that the Gelug system is 'superior'. It was simply a fake excuse to forcibly take over dominance and control the Karma Kagyu and other sects. The motivation was purely political.

Gaden Phodrang is the source and cause of much of skullduggery in Tibetan Buddhism and that has not changed today. A simple way to asses how much benefit/disbenefit Gaden Phodrang has brought to the Tibetan people is by honestly looking to see if the Tibetan people in exile and the state of Tibetan Buddhism in exile is better off or worse off than 60 years ago. The Dalai Lama and CTA cannot blame China for everything. They can blame China for scuttling negotiations for the return of the Tibetan people, but they cannot blame China for the mess that we see in the CTA and the Karma Kagyu and Gelug sects. They cannot blame China for the fact that the Tibetan refugees who are in the third generation are literally lost and with no future. Those who are making it are doing it without the CTA.

I think this issue of demanding Gaden Phodrang and CTA to ascertain which is the right Karmapa is important and a simple way to expose the Tibetan leadership's politics that underscores everything they do. However, the Tibetan answers, they will lose:
- if they say Ogyen Trinley is the correct Karmapa, how come he has abandoned the Tibetan cause. How come he has created such a mess between the Indian government and the Tibetan leadership. How come Thaye Dorje is visibly displaying signs that he has the merits to command a strong spiritual following and loyalty of a bit chunk of the Karma Kagyu?

- if they say Thaye Dorje is the correct Karmapa then come Gaden Phodrang did not recognise and enthrone him and instead, endorsed the wrong Karmapa?

- if they say both are correct, then how come the Dalai Lama did not recognise both and how come two incarnations of the same mind stream ie that of the omniscient 16thKarmapa would want to tear their own lineage apart?

- if they stay quiet, then how come the Dalai Lama is not taking steps to safe practitioners from the 'wrong' Karmapa and be led down a ruinous path?

Good questions for Dalai Lama and CTA.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Alex on January 12, 2019, 03:34:15 AM
It is very important for Lobsang Sangay and Tibetan Leadership to announce which Karmapa is the real one. I know Dalai Lama has appeared in pictures with Ogyen Trinley Dorje as the Karmapa. However, now that Ogyen Trinley Dorje has escaped to the US and refuse to work with the Tibetan leadership, do we still follow him? Is he still the real Karmapa?

On the other hand, Karmapa Thaye Dorje seems to be doing quite well and even give birth to a son which is rumoured to be Sharmapa. It seems like His Holiness the Dalai Lama tried to meet up with him during the Kagyu Monlam which mean Tibetan Leadership is trying to get close to Karmapa Thaye Dorje now?

This is very confusing to us followers. Can the Tibetan Leadership give us an answer to who is the real Karmapa like how they told us which Panchen Lama is the real one? We are very grateful for Tibetan leadership to clarify the confusion on Panchen Lama so that we will not follow the wrong lama.

Now that there are 2 Karmapa, it will be best if Tibetan Leadership can let us know so that we won’t follow the wrong one and end up going to the three lower realms for following a fake lama.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: michaela on January 12, 2019, 06:21:44 AM
Now that there are 2 Karmapa, it will be best if Tibetan Leadership can let us know so that we won’t follow the wrong one and end up going to the three lower realms for following a fake lama.


Hi Alex

Dear Alex

There are actually three Karmapas. But the third one, Dawa Sangpo Dorje, was not recognized by the Dalai Lama or the Sharmapa. It was recognized by Jamgon Kongtrul Rinpoche, one of the regents of Karma Kagyu lineage. You can read about the three Karmapa in this article:

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-tibetan-governments-meddling-created-three-karmapas/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-tibetan-governments-meddling-created-three-karmapas/)
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: michaela on January 12, 2019, 06:31:43 AM

Tibetan leaders are the one who actually divide Tibetans, create disharmony. Their real motive behind is to divide and rule, to divide attention to their failure as a government but no care about her people, their welfare, their future. They just eat and eat money. Then when no money they move to oversea to study and retire, one good example is Dhardon Sharling!



Dear Joo Won

Thank you for your comment. Honestly I don't think Dhardon Sharling left the CTA due to lack of fund. Within the last one year alone, the CTA has scored millions of dollars from the United States alone and this is excluding the fund they extracted from other countries. I think Ms. Sharling resigned because she does not want to be caught up in the middle of Lobsang Sangay and Penpa Tsering's conflict. If you are interested in the matter, you can read this article:

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/lobsang-sangay-and-dhardon-sharlings-catastrophic-legacy/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/lobsang-sangay-and-dhardon-sharlings-catastrophic-legacy/)
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Rowntree on January 12, 2019, 11:21:54 AM
This is HOT NEWS! How come the CTA still hasn't announced which Karmapa people should denounce and which one to follow? They did that with the Panchen Lama, Serkong Dorje Chang, Domo Geshe Rinpoche, Kundeling Rinpoche and etc. They also created two Gelug, one that practices Dorje Shugden, the other that not. They just love to split the lineage and the reincarnations all for political purposes.

There has never been a tradition where the Karmapa is recognised by the Dalai Lama throughout the Tibetan Buddhist history. The Karmapa has been recognised by the Sharmapa as far as the lineage is concerned and vice versa. Since the CTA rubbed it in, they should now tell the Karma Kagyu which one is the real Karmapa so they can denounce the fake one. This is very important because following a fake lama means they follow fake lineage and have fake teachings. This will mean the followers will end up in hell.

People are very confused and this has to be solved already. The Karmapa shouldn't keep quiet.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Harold Musetescu on January 12, 2019, 11:38:29 AM
This is HOT NEWS! How come the CTA still hasn't announced which Karmapa people should denounce and which one to follow? They did that with the Panchen Lama, Serkong Dorje Chang, Domo Geshe Rinpoche, Kundeling Rinpoche and etc. They also created two Gelug, one that practices Dorje Shugden, the other that not. They just love to split the lineage and the reincarnations all for political purposes.

The 14th Dalai Lama and HIS CTA have publicly recognized and enthroned their pick for the 17th Dalai Lama.

In their eyes all the rest are fake.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: dsnowlion on January 13, 2019, 04:28:43 PM

Sharmapa Rinpoche is the highest authority in the Karma Kagyu after Karmapa. By age old tradition, Sharmapa is the one that confirms the real incarnation of Karmapa. He recognized Thaye Dorje as the genuine Karmapa. But Dalai Lama endorsed Orgyen Trinley as the real Karmapa. Dalai Lama is a great lama but there has never been a tradition of him recognizing a Karmapa.

So why did the Dalai Lama do such a thing? He should have minded his own business and not get involved in the first place? Did he do it because that Tai Situ gave a huge donation? Then that means the Dalai Lama is worst than a Chinese spy!

Quote
Both 'Karmapas' have big followings in and out of Tibet. So which one should we follow? We have to follow the genuine Karmapa. If we follow the fake one, we will get fake teachings, fake lineage and no results. We can even take rebirth in the lower realms.

And guess what? Both Karmapas do not want to associate themselves with the Dalai Lama or the CTA! Even the Karmapa that His Holiness endorsed does not want to return to India and be under the CTA's control, which goes to prove what we have been saying about the corrupt, abusive CTA is so true!


Quote
Only the Tibetan leaders can tell us which is the real Karmapa. You have told us which one is the real Panchen Lama. We follow the Panchen of your choosing. Since then we have condemned China and condemned the fake Panchen Lama. Now it is the same situation with Karmapa. We have denounce the fake Karmapa and ask him to step down. He is destroying the Karma Kagyu Lineage.

So why wouldn't they just do that? Since they can twist history around, ban incarnations, and murder high lamas. Heck, they even banned the Sharmapa from returning and the Karmapa had to secretly recognised him for 3 lifetimes and the funny thing is when he is allowed back, he went straight back into giving the Dalai Lama more headaches hahahaha.


Quote
This issue has torn the Karma Kagyu sect in half. There are many who are so confused and some gave up Tibetan Buddhism altogether because of this. We must solve the confusion. This does not look good for the Tibetan government in exile because the confusion was started by Tibetan government. I support Dalai Lama and Tibetan government. But so many of us need to know the real Karmapa already. Don't remain silent. Which one is the real Karmapa.

So why wouldn't they just do that? Since they can twist history around, ban incarnations, and murder high lamas. Heck, they even banned the Sharmapa from returning and the Karmapa had to secretly recognised him for 3 lifetimes and the funny thing is when he is allowed back, he went straight back into giving the Dalai Lama more headaches hahahaha.

Looks like Tibetan government in exile's legacy will be destroying Tibetan Buddhism.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Jushri on January 13, 2019, 05:29:27 PM
Sad to say the truth loud out - The Dharamsala office (Dalai Lama's office) is just using these high lamas to gain money, fame and support. Like for example, one of the two Karmapas must be the fake one. IF the fake one is going to be Ugyen Thrinley, obviously he was Dharamsala's puppet and I am glad he is out from India and Dharamsala office's control now.

Dharamsala office couldn't care less about what is happening with the Karma Kagyu's lineage. I guess they are now scratching head thinking how to deal with the incarnation of Sharmapa. Maybe the Dharamsala office is going to recognise their own Sharmapa?

Oh dear, please, not again! 3 Karmapas, 2 Sharmapas, 2 Panchens, 2 Dromo Geshes, 2 Kundelings...

Dharamsala office is annoying

CTA has failed to regain their country and they need to cover their failure. Dorje Shugden is one of the ways CTA uses to shift the blame. By staying silent on the Karmapa issue, CTA is hoping to divide the Karma Kagyus so that they can also blame the Kagyus for disunity, resulting in Tibetan Cause being a lost cause.

When will CTA ever become a REAL government for their people? Looks like NEVER, seeing how they are still stuck in India for the last 60 years and nothing has changed. Instead of uniting Tibetans, CTA has effectively split the Tibetans to so many fractions with the Shugden ban, the 2 Panchen Lamas and now the 2 Karmapas.

CTA is doing a great job at destroying the Tibet Cause and Tibetan Buddhism. No government in the world has managed to achieve what CTA has - To destroy their own country and their official religion.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Harold Musetescu on January 13, 2019, 05:42:40 PM
The CTA is NOT the problem and they NEVER have been the problem.

The Dalai Lama IS,WAS AND CONTINUES to be the problem.

The CTA are his puppets and they do and say what their "Puppet Master" tells them to say an do.

Our true enemy is the Dalai Lama and not his puppets.

Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: mountains on January 13, 2019, 07:26:21 PM
Very significant

A hair cutting ceremony can be done when someone is going to be a monk. Or when a person is being recognized as a tulku. Besides that, it's rare there are hair cutting ceremonies for others reasons except for certain pujas.

Also the master who does the hair cutting should be someone of 'high standing', greatly respected and if possible a high lama with blessings. Many attendants of young tulkus will seek hair cutting ceremony with the highest or very respected lamas of their lineage. Many like to get this done by HH the Dalai Lama these days. So it is very unusual that Karmapa Thaye Dorje has his son's hair cutting done by Luding Khenchen Rinpoche who is Sakya and not even Karma Kagyu which Karmapa Thaye Dorje belongs to. This signifies a few things:

1. Definitely Karmapa Thaye Dorje's son is not becoming a monk at such a tender age. So the hair cutting signifies it is a incarnate lama or tulku.

2. To have his son's hair cut should be done by Dalai Lama but instead they have this done by Luding Khenchen Rinpoche shows an outright avoidance of Dalai Lama.

3. Also Karmapa Thaye Dorje is telling Dalai Lama and CTA (Tibetan govt in exile) that they don't need them. Karmapa Thaye Dorje does not need Dalai Lama or CTA to make it. They will be fine on their own. It is a very strong message to everyone.


Remember, the Karmapa Thaye Dorje has never taken one single photo with the Dalai Lama. Why is that? Because Karmapa Thaye Dorje and followers reject the Dalai Lama.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: SabS on January 13, 2019, 09:00:51 PM
CTA is really, really doing so much harm to their people and destroying the sacred Tibetan Buddhist lineages with so many doubts in the Masters and their teachings. How are they allowed to still be in existence? Pure lineages took centuries to establish in their true and trusted methods and yet, in just a few years, CTA managed to create so much distrust and damage the credibilities of true lineage Masters. CTA is nothing but the HERETICS of Tibetan Buddhism. Those who value their legacies of pure teachings and practices should join forces to oust the devils of Tibetan Buddhism.....

Give us back our faith and trust. Tell us who is real or fake. Double Karmapa, Panchen Lama, Dromo Geshe Rinpoche, Serkong Rinpoche, etc. CTA, decide and let us know. We do not want to follow the wrong practice nor do we want to go to hell for the wrong practice. We are waiting for your announcement!!!
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: michaela on January 13, 2019, 10:51:29 PM

CTA has failed to regain their country and they need to cover their failure. Dorje Shugden is one of the ways CTA uses to shift the blame. By staying silent on the Karmapa issue, CTA is hoping to divide the Karma Kagyus so that they can also blame the Kagyus for disunity, resulting in Tibetan Cause being a lost cause.

When will CTA ever become a REAL government for their people? Looks like NEVER, seeing how they are still stuck in India for the last 60 years and nothing has changed. Instead of uniting Tibetans, CTA has effectively split the Tibetans to so many fractions with the Shugden ban, the 2 Panchen Lamas and now the 2 Karmapas.

CTA is doing a great job at destroying the Tibet Cause and Tibetan Buddhism. No government in the world has managed to achieve what CTA has - To destroy their own country and their official religion.
We know that these days the so-called Tibet cause is no more than just lip service. Which Tibetans in exile really fight for the Tibet cause beside arranging a small protest here and there and encouraging the people inside Tibet to self-immolate. Remember that the self-immolation is performed by the people inside Tibet and not outside. They do so because the CTA praised the previous self-immolation victims for their patriotism. Then they paraded the face of the victims around the world to request donations. What a shame to be under such administration!

We know the CTA's dirty divide and conquer politics to ensure that nobody among the Tibetans is becoming too strong and become their potential rivals. The two Karmapas are the evidence. But what can they do now, The Karmapa Thaye Dorje does not care about the CTA and is outside the CTA's influence. The Karmapa Ogyen Thinley refused to be their tool and chose to live overseas. This is another sign that the CTA's power is eroding fast and soon enough nobody would listen to them. They are nothing without the Dalai Lama's name.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: pemachen on January 14, 2019, 02:59:14 AM
CTA is really, really doing so much harm to their people and destroying the sacred Tibetan Buddhist lineages with so many doubts in the Masters and their teachings. How are they allowed to still be in existence? Pure lineages took centuries to establish in their true and trusted methods and yet, in just a few years, CTA managed to create so much distrust and damage the credibilities of true lineage Masters. CTA is nothing but the HERETICS of Tibetan Buddhism. Those who value their legacies of pure teachings and practices should join forces to oust the devils of Tibetan Buddhism.....

Give us back our faith and trust. Tell us who is real or fake. Double Karmapa, Panchen Lama, Dromo Geshe Rinpoche, Serkong Rinpoche, etc. CTA, decide and let us know. We do not want to follow the wrong practice nor do we want to go to hell for the wrong practice. We are waiting for your announcement!!!

This is true. Tibetans are very confused on who to follow, and already Tibetans are losing unity because of being in exile and being scattered around the world. The Central Tibetan Administration is not making things easier.  Of course, many will follow His Holiness' the Dalai Lama's choice, but then that would mean the Tibetans will lose confidence in the lamas or the system who recognised these reincarnated lamas not chosen by His Holiness. Either way, it's a lose-lose situation. I wonder if this is the beginning of the end of the Tulku system in Tibetan Buddhism.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Drolma on January 14, 2019, 04:32:25 AM
CTA is really, really doing so much harm to their people and destroying the sacred Tibetan Buddhist lineages with so many doubts in the Masters and their teachings. How are they allowed to still be in existence? Pure lineages took centuries to establish in their true and trusted methods and yet, in just a few years, CTA managed to create so much distrust and damage the credibilities of true lineage Masters. CTA is nothing but the HERETICS of Tibetan Buddhism. Those who value their legacies of pure teachings and practices should join forces to oust the devils of Tibetan Buddhism.....

Give us back our faith and trust. Tell us who is real or fake. Double Karmapa, Panchen Lama, Dromo Geshe Rinpoche, Serkong Rinpoche, etc. CTA, decide and let us know. We do not want to follow the wrong practice nor do we want to go to hell for the wrong practice. We are waiting for your announcement!!!

This is true. Tibetans are very confused on who to follow, and already Tibetans are losing unity because of being in exile and being scattered around the world. The Central Tibetan Administration is not making things easier.  Of course, many will follow His Holiness' the Dalai Lama's choice, but then that would mean the Tibetans will lose confidence in the lamas or the system who recognised these reincarnated lamas not chosen by His Holiness. Either way, it's a lose-lose situation. I wonder if this is the beginning of the end of the Tulku system in Tibetan Buddhism.

Until today, the CTA is not saying anything about the Karmapa yet especially after the 2 Karmapas had met up and after the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley decided to give up the Indian IC card. We need an answer from the CTA, they have to tell us which Karmapa is real and which is fake. We only follow the one chosen by the CTA.

The CTA has the experience to identify the real and the fake lama, see how the CTA told us the Chinese Panchen Lama is fake and not to follow him? They can consult Nechung oracle on this issue as well. It is important to know that because if we follow the wrong Karmapa, the teachings we receive will not have blessings, we will not have attainment, we might even end up in the hell realm.

Why double standard again? Why didn't the CTA run campaigns to condemn the fake Karmapa for deceiving people? The CTA has the responsibility to ensure the purity and preservation of a lineage. They must not let the fake Karmapa stain the Kagyu lineage. The CTA has done such a good job in preserving the Gelug lineage by banning Dorje Shugden practice, I am sure they can also protect the Kagyu lineage by identifying and advising us which Karmapa to follow. They must also condemn the fake Karmapa like how they do to Dorje Shugden so people don't follow the wrong path.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Alex on January 14, 2019, 12:29:47 PM
CTA is really, really doing so much harm to their people and destroying the sacred Tibetan Buddhist lineages with so many doubts in the Masters and their teachings. How are they allowed to still be in existence? Pure lineages took centuries to establish in their true and trusted methods and yet, in just a few years, CTA managed to create so much distrust and damage the credibilities of true lineage Masters. CTA is nothing but the HERETICS of Tibetan Buddhism. Those who value their legacies of pure teachings and practices should join forces to oust the devils of Tibetan Buddhism.....

Give us back our faith and trust. Tell us who is real or fake. Double Karmapa, Panchen Lama, Dromo Geshe Rinpoche, Serkong Rinpoche, etc. CTA, decide and let us know. We do not want to follow the wrong practice nor do we want to go to hell for the wrong practice. We are waiting for your announcement!!!

This is true. Tibetans are very confused on who to follow, and already Tibetans are losing unity because of being in exile and being scattered around the world. The Central Tibetan Administration is not making things easier.  Of course, many will follow His Holiness' the Dalai Lama's choice, but then that would mean the Tibetans will lose confidence in the lamas or the system who recognised these reincarnated lamas not chosen by His Holiness. Either way, it's a lose-lose situation. I wonder if this is the beginning of the end of the Tulku system in Tibetan Buddhism.

Until today, the CTA is not saying anything about the Karmapa yet especially after the 2 Karmapas had met up and after the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley decided to give up the Indian IC card. We need an answer from the CTA, they have to tell us which Karmapa is real and which is fake. We only follow the one chosen by the CTA.

The CTA has the experience to identify the real and the fake lama, see how the CTA told us the Chinese Panchen Lama is fake and not to follow him? They can consult Nechung oracle on this issue as well. It is important to know that because if we follow the wrong Karmapa, the teachings we receive will not have blessings, we will not have attainment, we might even end up in the hell realm.

Why double standard again? Why didn't the CTA run campaigns to condemn the fake Karmapa for deceiving people? The CTA has the responsibility to ensure the purity and preservation of a lineage. They must not let the fake Karmapa stain the Kagyu lineage. The CTA has done such a good job in preserving the Gelug lineage by banning Dorje Shugden practice, I am sure they can also protect the Kagyu lineage by identifying and advising us which Karmapa to follow. They must also condemn the fake Karmapa like how they do to Dorje Shugden so people don't follow the wrong path.

I am quite sure CTA is ashamed of their own actions when the 2 Karmapas met up and decided to release a joint statement to urge for the unity of their followers to preserve their holy lineage and resolve the differences that have plagued them a quite a while now. If I am the shit stirrer who created all these problems, I would have shut up and hopefully, no one will notice what I did.

CTA has caused alot of troubles and problems to the Karma Kagyu lineage when they decided to use His Holiness to recognise another Karmapa candidate. However, due to their desperate nature to have the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje to be under their control, they overdid it and now Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje escaped from India and refuse to be subjected under CTA's control.

CTA has lost their only chance to have Karmapa over their side and there will not be another high lama at the same calibre that CTA can get their hands on. They have suffered a huge loss because of this. Their plans for the Karmapa to take over Dalai Lama's place after he had passed away flopped badly. They must be quite worried now. I wonder who will be the next puppet that they will get to replace Dalai Lama when he passed away.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Harold Musetescu on January 14, 2019, 01:29:22 PM
The CTA has officially recognized Ogyen Trinley Dorje as the 17th Karmapa as reported by Phayul.com on Friday March 17, 2017.

Here is the link.

http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id=38870&t=1 (http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id=38870&t=1)

March 31, 2017
Quote
The Tibetan leader His Holiness the Dalai Lama and the CTA recognize Ogyen Trinley Dorje as the 17th Karmapa. However, the Indian government has not yet lifted the restriction it imposed on the young Lama to visit Rumtek, which is guarded by Indian paramilitary force (BSF).
Unquote

We all know that the CTA and the Dalai Lama have been telling us OFFICIALLY since 1992 that Ogyen Trinley Dorje is the 17th Karmapa.

So can we stop playing this silly game of "The CTA MUST tell us who is the fake Karmapa"!!!!!

THEY HAVE SO LETS MOVE ON.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Aurore on January 14, 2019, 08:34:05 PM
We all know that the Dalai Lama and CTA recognised the Ogyen Trinley Dorje as the 17th Karmapa. It doesn't mean he is the true Karmapa. We all know it's the Sharmapas who recognises the next Karmapas. Through the recognition by both the Dalai Lama & the Sharmapa (Kunzig Shamar Rinpoche Mipham Chokyi Lodro) of the 17th Karmapas, the Karma Kagyu sects was divided and been in rift since.

It is NOT the Tibetan leadership's job to recognise the Karmapa by tradition. So why would the Dalai Lama reject the Karmapa Thaye Dorje when so many highly attained lamas from various lineages recognized and accept him? Could it be because he's fake?

Now that Thaye Dorje's son could be the Sharmapa, is he still the "fake" Karmapa? Would really want to hear what the Tibetan leaders has to say about this!




The CTA has officially recognized Ogyen Trinley Dorje as the 17th Karmapa as reported by Phayul.com on Friday March 17, 2017.

Here is the link.

[url]http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id=38870&t=1[/url] ([url]http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id=38870&t=1[/url])

March 31, 2017
Quote
The Tibetan leader His Holiness the Dalai Lama and the CTA recognize Ogyen Trinley Dorje as the 17th Karmapa. However, the Indian government has not yet lifted the restriction it imposed on the young Lama to visit Rumtek, which is guarded by Indian paramilitary force (BSF).
Unquote

We all know that the CTA and the Dalai Lama have been telling us OFFICIALLY since 1992 that Ogyen Trinley Dorje is the 17th Karmapa.

So can we stop playing this silly game of "The CTA MUST tell us who is the fake Karmapa"!!!!!

THEY HAVE SO LETS MOVE ON.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: PrajNa on January 15, 2019, 04:39:17 AM
The CTA has officially recognized Ogyen Trinley Dorje as the 17th Karmapa as reported by Phayul.com on Friday March 17, 2017.

Here is the link.

[url]http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id=38870&t=1[/url] ([url]http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id=38870&t=1[/url])

March 31, 2017
Quote
The Tibetan leader His Holiness the Dalai Lama and the CTA recognize Ogyen Trinley Dorje as the 17th Karmapa. However, the Indian government has not yet lifted the restriction it imposed on the young Lama to visit Rumtek, which is guarded by Indian paramilitary force (BSF).
Unquote

We all know that the CTA and the Dalai Lama have been telling us OFFICIALLY since 1992 that Ogyen Trinley Dorje is the 17th Karmapa.

So can we stop playing this silly game of "The CTA MUST tell us who is the fake Karmapa"!!!!!

THEY HAVE SO LETS MOVE ON.


His Holiness the Dalai Lama has recently said that it is possible for Thaye Dorje to be the Karmapa too. Looks like this is the trend following the Panchen Lama's statement last year. So, CTA has to tell us which is the real Karmapa, now that His Holiness said it's possible to have a few reincarnations. So what about the 3rd claimant of Karmapa? He's a reincarnation too?  :o

While he said that it was possible for the 16th Karmapa to have a few reincarnations, the Dalai Lama made it amply clear that there should be only one holder of the seat of the 17th Karmapa. The 14th Dalai Lama chose to remain quiet as to who will decide on the holder of the heads of Tibetan schools of Buddhism with the presence of two Panchen Lamas, two Karmapas and the Chinese government already initiating the process of anointing the 15th Dalai Lama.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/not-my-business-to-decide-on-successor-dalai-lama/story-pI7CFgqSFnmBg9ZSOvWMTP.html (https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/not-my-business-to-decide-on-successor-dalai-lama/story-pI7CFgqSFnmBg9ZSOvWMTP.html)
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Drolma on January 15, 2019, 06:14:15 PM
This is so confusing, the Dalai Lama always changes his tone. Who should we believe and what to believe? In the beginning, the CTA and the Dalai Lama said the Chinese Panchen Lama was fake. Many campaigns were launched by the CTA to condemn the fake Panchen Lama. Many years later, the Dalai Lama said the fake Panchen Lama might also be a real incarnation of the previous Panchen Lama.

For the Karmapas, it is the same again. The Dalai Lama has never met with the Karmapa Thaye Dorje, this shows that the Dalai Lama does not recognise him as the real Karmapa. Now, the Dalai Lama changed his tone to say the other Karmapa can also be real. Did the Dalai Lama say that because he can no longer control the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley and he thinks he can somehow influence the Karmapa Thaye Dorje to be on his side?

Whatever it is, the CTA cannot keep quiet on the Karmapa issue. They are the authority to tell which Tibetan lamas are fake and which are real. They have put so much effort into condemning the fake Panchen Lama, why are they not doing that for the Kagyu lineage? Isn't it their job to make sure all the Tibetan Buddhist lineages remain pure?
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: PrajNa on January 16, 2019, 04:52:43 AM
This is so confusing, the Dalai Lama always changes his tone. Who should we believe and what to believe? In the beginning, the CTA and the Dalai Lama said the Chinese Panchen Lama was fake. Many campaigns were launched by the CTA to condemn the fake Panchen Lama. Many years later, the Dalai Lama said the fake Panchen Lama might also be a real incarnation of the previous Panchen Lama.

For the Karmapas, it is the same again. The Dalai Lama has never met with the Karmapa Thaye Dorje, this shows that the Dalai Lama does not recognise him as the real Karmapa. Now, the Dalai Lama changed his tone to say the other Karmapa can also be real. Did the Dalai Lama say that because he can no longer control the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley and he thinks he can somehow influence the Karmapa Thaye Dorje to be on his side?

Whatever it is, the CTA cannot keep quiet on the Karmapa issue. They are the authority to tell which Tibetan lamas are fake and which are real. They have put so much effort into condemning the fake Panchen Lama, why are they not doing that for the Kagyu lineage? Isn't it their job to make sure all the Tibetan Buddhist lineages remain pure?


Exactly to the point, Drolma. It's very confusing for the Tibetans, needless to say for non-Tibetans like us. You should have a look at the other thread, The hidden message in the Dalai Lama's speech! here: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=6145.0 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=6145.0)

His Holiness is a really skilled orator and experienced politician. Some people think that in recent years, His Holiness had made many blunders, but I don't think so. I think all these are what His Holiness wants to bring the situation to certain results, although I don't know what  8), I can't judege these high lamas and what they want to do with their skillful means.

Back to the Karmapa, yes CTA as the government should really make it clear who to support and not support. They were the one who made a decision who was real and who was fake in the past. So now that both Karmapas recognised each other as Karmapas, what's next? It could be diplomacy to have unity in Karma Kagyu. But His Holiness the Dalai Lama mentioned that there can only be one Karmapa. So who will be the real official Karmapa?
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: dsnowlion on January 17, 2019, 03:35:26 AM

His Holiness the Dalai Lama has recently said that it is possible for Thaye Dorje to be the Karmapa too. Looks like this is the trend following the Panchen Lama's statement last year. So, CTA has to tell us which is the real Karmapa, now that His Holiness said it's possible to have a few reincarnations. So what about the 3rd claimant of Karmapa? He's a reincarnation too?  :o

While he said that it was possible for the 16th Karmapa to have a few reincarnations, the Dalai Lama made it amply clear that there should be only one holder of the seat of the 17th Karmapa. The 14th Dalai Lama chose to remain quiet as to who will decide on the holder of the heads of Tibetan schools of Buddhism with the presence of two Panchen Lamas, two Karmapas and the Chinese government already initiating the process of anointing the 15th Dalai Lama.

[url]https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/not-my-business-to-decide-on-successor-dalai-lama/story-pI7CFgqSFnmBg9ZSOvWMTP.html[/url] ([url]https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/not-my-business-to-decide-on-successor-dalai-lama/story-pI7CFgqSFnmBg9ZSOvWMTP.html[/url])


I knew it! I knew this is what he is going to say next. So now what? For every high Lama the Dalai Lama recognises, there is a possibility of ANOTHER? So all these high lamas that he picked, that is always opposite of another high lama, authority's choice, just so happened there is a 2nd incarnation/emanation? Sounds a little bit too good to be true if you ask me.

Yes I do believe that high lamas can incarnate and they can emanate into many forms and have 5 possible forms of emanations; mind, body, activity, speech, and one more... who knows? But I don't think this is the case here for all the ones Dalai Lama recognised that opposes the other parties who have their own authority and tradition.

The issue here is the CTA lies, and they keep on lying and the slowly but surely the skeleton is being uncovered! Now let's here what they say about Thaye Dorje and did the Dalai Lama wanted to try to become friends now?  'Karmapa' Thaye Dorje rejects the Dalai Lama > http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=6240.0 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=6240.0)
He has never taken any pictures with Thaye Dorje... why did he crash the Bodhgaya Kagyu Monlam in hope to get a picture with him but what a slap in the fece, and Thaye Dorje purposely escaped the Dalai Lama. Looks like he did not want to meet the Dalai Lama and that's a clear indication he is for real... not a fake lama that wants to rub shoulders with the Dalai Lama for fame and fortune. He is saying outright, he doesn't need the Dalai Lama to help him or promote him cos he is authentic!?! Wow!
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: PrajNa on January 17, 2019, 03:44:54 AM
The issue here is the CTA lies, and they keep on lying and the slowly but surely the skeleton is being uncovered! Now let's here what they say about Thaye Dorje and did the Dalai Lama wanted to try to become friends now?  'Karmapa' Thaye Dorje rejects the Dalai Lama > [url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=6240.0[/url] ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=6240.0[/url])
He has never taken any pictures with Thaye Dorje... why did he crash the Bodhgaya Kagyu Monlam in hope to get a picture with him but what a slap in the fece, and Thaye Dorje purposely escaped the Dalai Lama. Looks like he did not want to meet the Dalai Lama and that's a clear indication he is for real... not a fake lama that wants to rub shoulders with the Dalai Lama for fame and fortune. He is saying outright, he doesn't need the Dalai Lama to help him or promote him cos he is authentic!?! Wow! [/size]


Exactly. You get very confused with the Central Tibetan Administration. Who is the real Karmapa? If Karmapa Ogyen Trinley is (was?) the real one, then why want to be chummy with Karmapa Thaye Dorje now? Perhaps since CTA has "lost" Karmapa Ogyen Trinley, now they are eyeing to control Karmapa Thaye Dorje. Maybe they will tell him that CTA will get His Holiness the Dalai Lama to endorse him as the real Karmapa since Karmapa Ogyen Trinley ran away from Dharamsala.

I would run away from Dharamsala too. Karmapa Ogyen Trinley was under strict scrutiny like in a prison and the Indian government, under the influence/instruction of CTA for sure, raided his office/premise and confiscated the money - almost USD1 million in cash, they have not return it until now. Luckily Karmapa Ogyen Trinley is not cash-strapped.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: michaela on January 17, 2019, 05:43:10 AM

Do watch the above video. This is the result of the confusion and conflict between the two Karmapa followers. The Central Tibetan Administration has been doing a good job to create schism and conflict among Tibetans and Tibetan Buddhism practitioners.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: dsnowlion on January 17, 2019, 10:54:19 AM
Why did the Dalai Lama allow this? Why didn't they do anything to stop the schism and the fighting? It has to stop! The Tibetan government is really too much! The always poke their noses in other people's business and try to control us.

The reason is simple, they just want to exploit the Tibetans for their own greedy needs. Disgusting. It is such a shame to be known as a Buddhist government. They really destroy the dharma, people's lives and people's spirituality! Disgusting!!!

The Tibetan exile government better sort this out and tell the world who is the real Karmapa and stop all the violence already. Stop all the in-fighting and schism and broken up so many families and spiritual families between Guru and disciples. Karma Kagyu was united, just like Dorje Shugden was united with other Gelugs and had good harmonious relationship with all other sects until the disgusting CTA told lies and ban Dorje Shugden which they have no right to do and against human rights! Very very bad. They are worst than Trump because they are supposed to be Buddhist and have some dharma! Unfortunately, NOT.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: michaela on January 17, 2019, 10:57:37 AM

Look at this video how much the Karmapa factions are fighting. The Tibetan government (The Central Tibetan Administration (CTA)) in exile is responsible for this. The CTA interfered in the Karmapa's recognition which resulted in more than one Karmapas. The situation causes confusion and unrest among the Karma Kagyu followers. The CTA is responsible for this mess, so they have to do something to solve this.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: SabS on January 18, 2019, 12:52:44 PM

Look at this video how much the Karmapa factions are fighting. The Tibetan government (The Central Tibetan Administration (CTA)) in exile is responsible for this. The CTA interfered in the Karmapa's recognition which resulted in more than one Karmapas. The situation causes confusion and unrest among the Karma Kagyu followers. The CTA is responsible for this mess, so they have to do something to solve this.

This is how CTA had created the disharmony. By announcing who the right Karmapa is would have avoided this kind of unrest. Why does the CTA not care for their people but instead always created the conditions for unrest. They should worry about whether we are following the wrong Karmapa or not and make the announcement of who the real one is. Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje had always been thought to be the right one since he is constantly making appearances with the Dalai Lama but now, even the Dalai Lama don't know where he is after this Karmapa received his Dominican Republic passport. On top of that India is waiting for his return to level charges against him.

As for Karmapa Thaye Dorje which was recognised by the Sharmapa as lineage tradition dictates, he had been photographed with the Dalai Lama and he had to face tremendous obstacles wherever he went. Now he even has a baby rumoured to be the Sharmapa incarnate. And the Dalai Lama paid visit to the prayer event he was holding at Mahabodhi Temple in Bodhgaya. So now we are all very confused as to who is the right one. Are the Tibetan Leaders going to create more controversy like the Panchen Lama issue, Dorje Shugden issue, and all the many double cases of reincarnations? We want to know before we continue to follow the wrong one and end up in hell. Who is the real Karmapa?
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Tracy on January 19, 2019, 10:48:26 AM
Why the double standard from the CTA again? For the Panchen Lama issue, the CTA is very vocal about it. They launch campaigns to let everyone know who is the real Panchen Lama and advise us not to follow the fake one. They do it to protect the purity of the lineage, it also clearly indicates that there can only be one Panchen Lama.

In the case of the Karmapa, why is the CTA not doing the same to protect the Karma Kagyu lineage? Why is the CTA not telling us who the real Karmapa aggressively? Is it because the Gelug lineage is more precious than the Karma Kagyu lineage? How can a government play favoritism?

Whether Gelug or Karma Kagyu lineage, they are both very precious. The CTA as the guardian to the Tibetan Buddhism as they claim, they should protect all lineages. They seem to put more effort and focus on Gelug lineage, why the favoritism? They are sectarian in this case because they care more about the Gelug lineage.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: PrajNa on January 19, 2019, 11:40:33 PM
Why the double standard from the CTA again? For the Panchen Lama issue, the CTA is very vocal about it. They launch campaigns to let everyone know who is the real Panchen Lama and advise us not to follow the fake one. They do it to protect the purity of the lineage, it also clearly indicates that there can only be one Panchen Lama.

In the case of the Karmapa, why is the CTA not doing the same to protect the Karma Kagyu lineage? Why is the CTA not telling us who the real Karmapa aggressively? Is it because the Gelug lineage is more precious than the Karma Kagyu lineage? How can a government play favoritism?

Whether Gelug or Karma Kagyu lineage, they are both very precious. The CTA as the guardian to the Tibetan Buddhism as they claim, they should protect all lineages. They seem to put more effort and focus on Gelug lineage, why the favoritism? They are sectarian in this case because they care more about the Gelug lineage.

Personally I think it's because for the Panchen Lama issue, they can garner sympathy for Tibet cause and also get funding. Not so with the Karmapa issue, because it seems to be an internal/religious issue.

CTA operates based on profit, or profit-making for their own pocket, unfortunately.  :(
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: pemachen on January 20, 2019, 01:15:39 AM
Why the double standard from the CTA again? For the Panchen Lama issue, the CTA is very vocal about it. They launch campaigns to let everyone know who is the real Panchen Lama and advise us not to follow the fake one. They do it to protect the purity of the lineage, it also clearly indicates that there can only be one Panchen Lama.

In the case of the Karmapa, why is the CTA not doing the same to protect the Karma Kagyu lineage? Why is the CTA not telling us who the real Karmapa aggressively? Is it because the Gelug lineage is more precious than the Karma Kagyu lineage? How can a government play favoritism?

Whether Gelug or Karma Kagyu lineage, they are both very precious. The CTA as the guardian to the Tibetan Buddhism as they claim, they should protect all lineages. They seem to put more effort and focus on Gelug lineage, why the favoritism? They are sectarian in this case because they care more about the Gelug lineage.

Personally I think it's because for the Panchen Lama issue, they can garner sympathy for Tibet cause and also get funding. Not so with the Karmapa issue, because it seems to be an internal/religious issue.

CTA operates based on profit, or profit-making for their own pocket, unfortunately.  :(

Agree with PrajNa. Lobsang Sangay and his accomplice in Dharamsala are only out to fend for themselves. They are making the Panchen Lama a big deal so that they can get worldwide sympathy for Tibet Cause, and they can get more financial aid from the West. That's what it's all about. Do you think Lobsang Sangay really cares who's the Panchen Lama? CTA has been functioning without a Panchen Lama for 60 years. What's the difference?
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Rowntree on January 20, 2019, 04:15:21 AM
Thanks to Tai Situ now there are 2 Karmapas. He even brought people to Rumtek and create the riot during the White Karmapa's enthronement preceded by Sharmapa. This has caused the Indian Government banned both Karmapas from going back to their monastery. There is a lot of heritage there and everyone is eyeing on it.

Politics and greed take over a supposedly high lama who is willing to ruin the lineage by getting his choice of Karmapa endorsed. Tai Situ created all these fractions and enjoyed the material benefits for selling his lineage. He is such a bad example.

Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Alex on January 20, 2019, 09:02:32 PM
Thanks to Tai Situ now there are 2 Karmapas. He even brought people to Rumtek and create the riot during the White Karmapa's enthronement preceded by Sharmapa. This has caused the Indian Government banned both Karmapas from going back to their monastery. There is a lot of heritage there and everyone is eyeing on it.

Politics and greed take over a supposedly high lama who is willing to ruin the lineage by getting his choice of Karmapa endorsed. Tai Situ created all these fractions and enjoyed the material benefits for selling his lineage. He is such a bad example.

Tai Situ Rinpoche is a high lama in Karma Kagyu sect of Tibetan Buddhism really made a fool out of himself. Have anyone seen the video where he talked about how scary Dorje Shugden is? In the video, he expressed that he is scared by just reciting Dorje Shugden's name. Indirectly, he is saying that him being a high Rinpoche can be overpowered by a mere evil spirit.

Lamas of Tibetan Buddhism are famous for their ability to solve paranormal problems. That is why when Situ Rinpoche said that he is afraid of the evil spirit called Dorje Shugden, he is saying that Karma Kagyu Lamas are incapable. They can't even subdue an evil spirit. So it means whatever teachings they practice is not effective and false because Buddha's teachings are supposed to be able to subdue spirits with compassion.

It also shows how incapable of him being a Rinpoche for being scared of an evil spirit. All of these does not make sense for a person who has knowledge about Tibetan Buddhism. In fact, anyone who examines the whole Dorje Shugden ban and also the reason that CTA gave to justify the ban, they will find it illogical. CTA is obviously lying about why the impose the ban. There is a hidden agenda in it.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Tracy on January 20, 2019, 10:57:18 PM

Personally I think it's because for the Panchen Lama issue, they can garner sympathy for Tibet cause and also get funding. Not so with the Karmapa issue, because it seems to be an internal/religious issue.

CTA operates based on profit, or profit-making for their own pocket, unfortunately.  :(

I am sure the CTA is using the Panchen Lama issue to condemn China and to garner sympathy for Tibet cause for more free money. But if the Karmapa issue is an internal/religious within the Kagyu lineage, why did the CTA and the Dalai Lama have to give an endorsement to him that he is the real Karmapa?

The way the CTA handle the Karmapa issue is again with a political agenda. They want the Karmapa to be their puppet so they can use a high lama to continue to get free money. The only mission of CTA is to exploit the lamas, the Tibetans people so they don't have to work hard and they can get rich easily.

The CTA always uses the name of religion to manipulate people. They have failed miserably in the Tibet Cause, in order to cover up themselves they blame it on Dorje Shugden. This sounds so ridiculous that an unseen being is so powerful to destroy a country.  But the CTA think everyone is so gullible that they will buy the story.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Alex on January 22, 2019, 03:35:24 AM

Personally I think it's because for the Panchen Lama issue, they can garner sympathy for Tibet cause and also get funding. Not so with the Karmapa issue, because it seems to be an internal/religious issue.

CTA operates based on profit, or profit-making for their own pocket, unfortunately.  :(

I am sure the CTA is using the Panchen Lama issue to condemn China and to garner sympathy for Tibet cause for more free money. But if the Karmapa issue is an internal/religious within the Kagyu lineage, why did the CTA and the Dalai Lama have to give an endorsement to him that he is the real Karmapa?

The way the CTA handle the Karmapa issue is again with a political agenda. They want the Karmapa to be their puppet so they can use a high lama to continue to get free money. The only mission of CTA is to exploit the lamas, the Tibetans people so they don't have to work hard and they can get rich easily.

The CTA always uses the name of religion to manipulate people. They have failed miserably in the Tibet Cause, in order to cover up themselves they blame it on Dorje Shugden. This sounds so ridiculous that an unseen being is so powerful to destroy a country.  But the CTA think everyone is so gullible that they will buy the story.

This is very confusing for Buddhist like me. There used to be 2 Panchen Lama and luckily CTA cleared the doubt. Now there is a total of 3 Karmapas now and who am I suppose to follow? All 3 of them are backed by high lamas and there is no way for a normal Buddhist like me to know who is the real Karmapa and who to follow.

The Tibetan leadership did a good job in identifying the fake Panchen Lama and they should also do it for Karmapa. Why are they keeping quiet now since it is a good time for them to speak up. The Karmapa that used to be close to CTA ran away to the western country and now His Holiness the Dalai Lama went to Kagyu Monlam in Bodhgaya which is preceded by the other Karmapa.

So CTA going to recognise both of the Karmapa? This is very confusing. Please Tibetan leadership, I do not want to follow the wrong Karmapa and then go to hell for this. Please help me and choose the right one.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: dsnowlion on January 23, 2019, 03:25:37 AM
We all know that the Dalai Lama and CTA recognised the Ogyen Trinley Dorje as the 17th Karmapa. It doesn't mean he is the true Karmapa. We all know it's the Sharmapas who recognises the next Karmapas. Through the recognition by both the Dalai Lama & the Sharmapa (Kunzig Shamar Rinpoche Mipham Chokyi Lodro) of the 17th Karmapas, the Karma Kagyu sects was divided and been in rift since.

It is NOT the Tibetan leadership's job to recognise the Karmapa by tradition. So why would the Dalai Lama reject the Karmapa Thaye Dorje when so many highly attained lamas from various lineages recognized and accept him? Could it be because he's fake?

Now that Thaye Dorje's son could be the Sharmapa, is he still the "fake" Karmapa? Would really want to hear what the Tibetan leaders has to say about this!

Yes - mee too would like to hear what the CTA has to say about this BUT they have been QUIET! So quiet you can hear the pin drop! Lol

These are my thoughts.... they would not dare to say anything because they are cornered... since the new baby from Thaye Dorje is "Sharmapa" that would simply mean the Karmapa the Dalai Lama recognise is wrong and so, CTA would end up condemning themselves that the Dalai Lama can be wrong and choose the wrong candidate for the sake of what? Money? Did Tai Situ donate a huge amount for this deal? Who knows, probably after hearing so many scandals, one after another being exposed.

Another reason is, if they pick and say their Karmapa is the real one, then they a whole section of people who follows Thaye Dorje who are from ALL OVER THE WORLD... countries the CTA is trying to MILK the mulah $$$$ from will start to protest and reject. They already dislike Dharamsala for choosing Tai Situ's black Karmapa... this would just escalate their anger.

Now Dalai Lama is trying to cover his mistakes by saying there is a possibility of 2 Karmapas, well maybe that's true, maybe that isn't, but whatever the case, I don't think the CTA can manipulate the Karmapas any more seeing BOTH want OUT and AWAY from the Dalai Lama and the CTA which is a huge embarrassment. We just have to wait and see as the drama unfolds! There is such a thing called karma, and guess what Sharmapa is back to taunt them
  ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: PrajNa on January 23, 2019, 03:39:58 AM
The Tibetan leadership did a good job in identifying the fake Panchen Lama and they should also do it for Karmapa. Why are they keeping quiet now since it is a good time for them to speak up. The Karmapa that used to be close to CTA ran away to the western country and now His Holiness the Dalai Lama went to Kagyu Monlam in Bodhgaya which is preceded by the other Karmapa.

So CTA going to recognise both of the Karmapa? This is very confusing. Please Tibetan leadership, I do not want to follow the wrong Karmapa and then go to hell for this. Please help me and choose the right one.

It's very weird. They are the one who started who's real who's fake in the first place. So now that there are 2, why can't they announce which one is the real one? The question is will they stick to the one who is 'real' and ran away, or will they declare Karmapa Thaye Dorje as the real one now since the 'real' Karmapa fled and left them high and dry after years of being mistreated and manipulated under the CTA ::)?
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Harold Musetescu on January 23, 2019, 08:16:25 AM
The Tibetan leadership did a good job in identifying the fake Panchen Lama and they should also do it for Karmapa. Why are they keeping quiet now since it is a good time for them to speak up. The Karmapa that used to be close to CTA ran away to the western country and now His Holiness the Dalai Lama went to Kagyu Monlam in Bodhgaya which is preceded by the other Karmapa.

So CTA going to recognise both of the Karmapa? This is very confusing. Please Tibetan leadership, I do not want to follow the wrong Karmapa and then go to hell for this. Please help me and choose the right one.

What is this nonsense about "CTA who is the real Karmapa?".

In 1992 the Dalai Lama and the CTA publicly stated who was the Karmapa and it was NOT Thaye Dorje.

So can we stop this nonsense here and now.

The CTA stated publicly in 1992 who was the Karmapa.

Can we move on now.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: PrajNa on January 23, 2019, 05:08:10 PM

What is this nonsense about "CTA who is the real Karmapa?".

In 1992 the Dalai Lama and the CTA publicly stated who was the Karmapa and it was NOT Thaye Dorje.

So can we stop this nonsense here and now.

The CTA stated publicly in 1992 who was the Karmapa.

Can we move on now.


While he said that it was possible for the 16th Karmapa to have a few reincarnations, the Dalai Lama made it amply clear that there should be only one holder of the seat of the 17th Karmapa. The 14th Dalai Lama chose to remain quiet as to who will decide on the holder of the heads of Tibetan schools of Buddhism with the presence of two Panchen Lamas, two Karmapas and the Chinese government already initiating the process of anointing the 15th Dalai Lama.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/not-my-business-to-decide-on-successor-dalai-lama/story-pI7CFgqSFnmBg9ZSOvWMTP.html (https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/not-my-business-to-decide-on-successor-dalai-lama/story-pI7CFgqSFnmBg9ZSOvWMTP.html)
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Drolma on January 24, 2019, 03:59:14 AM
As the leadership of the Tibetans, the CTA is very concerned of the purity of a Tibetan Buddhist tradition. They will put in a lot of effort and money to protect the lineage. Look at how they protect the Gelug lineage, in order to prevent the lineage from being polluted by Dorje Shugden, they impose a ban, publish books and videos and put official statements on their website. They even have a page dedicated to that.

But why is the CTA not doing the same for Karma Kagyu lineage? The 2 Karmapa issue has divided the Karma Kagyu into 2 groups, none of the 2 Karmapas is allowed to go to Rumtek Monastery because they still cannot decide which is the real Karmapa. Why didn't the CTA step in and decide which is the real Karmapa and allow him to go back to Rumtek Monastery? They did a good job in identifying the real and fake Panchen Lama, they will be able to do the same for the Karmapa.

Again, the CTA has a double standard on religious issues. Is it because they think Gelug lineage is more precious than the Karma Kagyu lineage and other lineages? As the leadership of the Tibetans, the CTA should not show favouritism, they have to protect the lineage, they cannot let the fake Karmapa destroy such a precious lineage. The CTA has to let people know which is the fake Karmapa and which is the real one.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Harold Musetescu on January 24, 2019, 09:26:33 AM

The CTA has to let people know which is the fake Karmapa and which is the real one.

The Dalai Lama has stated since 1992 who is the real Karmapa and who is the fake one.

The CTA has stated since 1992 who is the real Karmapa and who is the fake one.

Your question has been answered by the Dalai Lama and HIS CTA for the last 27 years.

Have I finally answered your question.

If not here's the answer to your question.

It's OGYEN TRINLEY DORJE.

Can we now all move on to more important issues that affect we the followers of Dorje Shugden?
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: dsnowlion on January 25, 2019, 08:16:22 AM
Well CTA what happened to your chosen Karmapa now???

Looks like the Dalai Lama's chosen Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje has a girlfriend and has many girlfriends according to what the news in Taiwan is reporting.


Translation of the Youtube title from a friend: Born amidst "auspicious cloud" descending into the world, showing miraculous signs! Karmapa with millions of devotees involved in a sexual scandal, voice recording exposed: "We experience joy and sorrow of life together" San Li news station


How come Dharamsala's choice of Karmapa has so many scandals, from money scandals to now sexual/relationship scandals. What does this tell us about the Central Tibetan Administration's credibility?

Looks like everything the exile Tibetan Government does is just turning into a huge sham! What a disgrace.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Drolma on January 25, 2019, 08:21:31 AM
The meeting of the two Karmapa definitely is a big surprise to everyone. In the past, the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley has expressed many times he wants to meet with Sharmapa but it didn't happen. But finally, he met up with the Karmapa Thaye Dorje knowing that he cannot rely on the CTA to resolve the Karmapa issue.

They know the two Karmapas issue will split the Karma Kagyu lineage into two and it will affect the continuity of the lineage. They are very concerned about this than who the real Karmapa is. Perhaps the two of them are both real but there can be only one throne holder. But then as the leadership of the Tibetans, the CTA has to decide which one is real and which one is fake.

I am waiting to see when will the CTA issue a statement to declare who the real Karmapa is. Many Tibetans and Tibetan Buddhist all around the world are waiting for the CTA to make an announcement, they have to give everyone a direction like how they tell us which Panchen Lama to follow. I believe the CTA has the capability to do that since they have done it for the Panchen Lama.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Harold Musetescu on January 25, 2019, 12:37:14 PM
But then as the leadership of the Tibetans, the CTA has to decide which one is real and which one is fake.

I am waiting to see when will the CTA issue a statement to declare who the real Karmapa is. Many Tibetans and Tibetan Buddhist all around the world are waiting for the CTA to make an announcement, they have to give everyone a direction like how they tell us which Panchen Lama to follow. I believe the CTA has the capability to do that since they have done it for the Panchen Lama.

The CTA has since 1992 publicly backed the 14th Dalai Lama's choice of Ogyen Trinley Dorje as the 17th Karmapa.

So Drolma way after 27 years of the CTA backing this Karmapa  do they need to repeat it again in 2019?

Why are you and others demanding the CTA repeat again that Ogyen Trinley Dorje is the 17th Karmapa?

This demand to the CTA makes no sense to me at all.

1992,1992,1992,1992,1992!!! :o :o :o :o :o
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: SabS on January 25, 2019, 06:13:40 PM
Well CTA what happened to your chosen Karmapa now???

Looks like the Dalai Lama's chosen Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje has a girlfriend and has many girlfriends according to what the news in Taiwan is reporting.


Translation of the Youtube title from a friend: Born amidst "auspicious cloud" descending into the world, showing miraculous signs! Karmapa with millions of devotees involved in a sexual scandal, voice recording exposed: "We experience joy and sorrow of life together" San Li news station


How come Dharamsala's choice of Karmapa has so many scandals, from money scandals to now sexual/relationship scandals. What does this tell us about the Central Tibetan Administration's credibility?

Looks like everything the exile Tibetan Government does is just turning into a huge sham! What a disgrace.


Wow! This is the Karmapa endorsed by the Dalai Lama as often seen together in events. I wonder if this is the reason that the Tibetan Leaders had been keeping quiet about who the real Karmapa is and not clearing the confusion from their people's mind. If the Tibetan Leaders had cared for their people, they would have swiftly announced who the real Karmapa is so that we will be able to be assured of our practices. It is so dangerous to receive teachings from the wrong Karmapa as we may end up in Hell as what the Tibetan Leaders tell us all the time with Dorje Shugden practice. So I for one do not wish to end up in hell and why are the Tibetan Leaders not telling us?????
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Alex on January 26, 2019, 04:46:50 AM
This is getting uglier than before as time goes by. The Tibetan leadership is still keeping quiet on who is the real Karmapa and they refuse to let their followers know who is the real deal and who is the imposter. Now that CTA's Karmapa has a relationship scandal, I think it made the situation even worst.

CTA recognised Karmapa Ogyen Trinley as the real Karmapa and now he is involved in a relationship scandal. It makes CTA looks very bad. Now if CTA says their Karmapa is the real one, the public will not accept because how can the Karmapa have such conduct as a monk. It will make the whole lineage looks very bad.

If the CTA recognises Karmapa Thaye Dorje now, they will be seen as betraying their own recognised Karmapa when their own Karmapa is in a bad situation. They will be seen as not loyal. Either way, CTA will get blasted and this is the results of their own actions for meddling with the affairs that they are not supposed to meddle with in the first place.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: michaela on January 27, 2019, 05:31:26 PM
Well, the CTA created their own mess by meddling in the Karmapa issue. Now they are being put in an awkward position. Karmapa Ogyen Trinley left India and now his visa request is being ignored by the Indian government. The CTA cannot use him for now, and they have very little influence with the Karmapa Thaye Dorje. They tried to control the Karma Kagyu lineage and they ended up losing control.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Harold Musetescu on January 27, 2019, 06:00:12 PM
Well, the CTA created their own mess by meddling in the Karmapa issue.

Your all wrong about who created this mess.

It rest with only one person and one person alone.

The 14th Dalai Lama.

He had no business meddling in the affairs of the Karma Kagyu.

The CTA only endorsed the 14th Dalai Lama's choice as all good puppet governments do when their dictators speaks.

This is not the fault of the CTA but their "Puppet Master" the 14th Dalai Lama.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: thaimonk on January 28, 2019, 04:42:37 AM
Does this Karmapa really have a girlfriend in Taiwan? It is all over the Taiwanese media and has taped recording of his conversation with the girl.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: PrajNa on January 29, 2019, 08:44:54 PM
According to the news in the media, Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche made a statement to refute the story, and that the Karmapa doesn't have a girlfriend in Taiwan. Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche said that this "H girl" is not someone special, and definitely not under his direction to get close to the Karmapa.

It's a he says she says situation, so I guess we just watch and see. Here is the short news of Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche's statement being shared on Facebook.


(https://i.ibb.co/ZhwV8qJ/karmapa.png)

Found on: https://www.trilinq.life/cat/181/node/1244112?fbclid=IwAR0AeHmQiIodlPbmX9kT1saHPwYooIMd27beWZczJEcsRgRSGkil-dTuJGk (https://www.trilinq.life/cat/181/node/1244112?fbclid=IwAR0AeHmQiIodlPbmX9kT1saHPwYooIMd27beWZczJEcsRgRSGkil-dTuJGk)
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: pemachen on January 30, 2019, 07:22:01 PM
Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche isn't exactly stainless in his reputation either.

In October 2017, Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche published a 16-page 'sex contract' as a purportedly humorous example of legal framework by which a tantric guru may engage in sexual relations with their disciples. After that he received a lot of backlashes and then removed the post. Perhaps that's why this H girl took the chance to implicate Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche. In any case, why is it that the Karmapa himself didn't make any statement about this I wonder  8)?

This is the type of facebook posts by Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche that creates controversy, saw it flying around, so I decided to post it here.

(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/ac3457_01a293c4ed2041c3b4a732a401e12994~mv2.png/v1/fill/w_599,h_615,al_c,q_85,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/ac3457_01a293c4ed2041c3b4a732a401e12994~mv2.webp)

Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Tracy on January 31, 2019, 05:29:45 AM
According to the news in the media, Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche made a statement to refute the story, and that the Karmapa doesn't have a girlfriend in Taiwan. Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche said that this "H girl" is not someone special, and definitely not under his direction to get close to the Karmapa.

It's a he says she says situation, so I guess we just watch and see. Here is the short news of Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche's statement being shared on Facebook.


Found on: https://www.trilinq.life/cat/181/node/1244112?fbclid=IwAR0AeHmQiIodlPbmX9kT1saHPwYooIMd27beWZczJEcsRgRSGkil-dTuJGk (https://www.trilinq.life/cat/181/node/1244112?fbclid=IwAR0AeHmQiIodlPbmX9kT1saHPwYooIMd27beWZczJEcsRgRSGkil-dTuJGk)

The Karmapa issue has become so complicated. First, the money laundering scandal, then he ran away from the CTA to meet with the other Karmapa, not long after that a sex scandal. How true is the sex scandal, I am not sure. But it just puzzles me that why only now the H girl exposes the Karmapa.

There are 2 possibilities that the Karmapa or his office are not issuing any statement until now. One, it is a set-up, the Karmapa is wrongly accused and they see no point in clarifying the issue. Two, the scandal is real and they are still looking for the best way to deal with it.

I also wonder why the international media did not pick up this news? The news is reported in Taiwanese media and some minimal coverage in other Chinese media, nothing more than that. Is this again some kind of dirty tactic from the CTA trying to take revenge on the Karmapa for going against them?
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: vajratruth on January 31, 2019, 05:55:51 AM
Well, the CTA created their own mess by meddling in the Karmapa issue.

Your all wrong about who created this mess.

It rest with only one person and one person alone.

The 14th Dalai Lama.

He had no business meddling in the affairs of the Karma Kagyu.

The CTA only endorsed the 14th Dalai Lama's choice as all good puppet governments do when their dictators speaks.

This is not the fault of the CTA but their "Puppet Master" the 14th Dalai Lama.

Dear Harold,

Do you think that is still the case? Of late I see that the Dalai Lama and Lobsang Sangay seems to be at odds but being Tibetan, it is all very subtle. Apart from news that Lobsang Sangay cancelled the Tibetan Religious Leaders Conference last year without informing the Dalai Lama beforehand, we can also see that the Dalai Lama is making efforts to make friends with China while Sangay is still quite hostile to China.

What is your opinion? Is the CTA still a puppet government or are people people like Sangay now thinking on their own but not openly challenging the Dalai Lama?

Thanks
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Harold Musetescu on January 31, 2019, 12:20:25 PM

Dear Harold,

Do you think that is still the case? Of late I see that the Dalai Lama and Lobsang Sangay seems to be at odds but being Tibetan, it is all very subtle. Apart from news that Lobsang Sangay cancelled the Tibetan Religious Leaders Conference last year without informing the Dalai Lama beforehand, we can also see that the Dalai Lama is making efforts to make friends with China while Sangay is still quite hostile to China.

What is your opinion? Is the CTA still a puppet government or are people people like Sangay now thinking on their own but not openly challenging the Dalai Lama?

Thanks

The Dalai Lama could dissolve with CTA with a simple proclamation that they are corrupt.

The Nechung Oracle will declare the CTA to be corrupt.

This is how fragile the CTA are and they know it.

Lobsang could have cancelled the conference on orders of the Dalai Lama.

This way he could take the blame and the Dalai Lama would appear to be the innocent party.

The Dalai Lama did try to appease China but that was some time ago with zero results.

I believe the CTA considers the Dalai Lama their enemy in their bid for total control.

They will wait for his death then we will all see the true nature of the CTA.

We will all see how the "Puppet" acts without it's "Puppet Master" controlling it's every move.

The unchained CTA will show it's true evil, cruel nature starting with it's own people.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Alex on January 31, 2019, 02:31:43 PM
Why the Tibetan leadership still refuses to come out and make a stand for their chosen candidate of Karmapa? Since they have recognized Ogyen Trinley Dorje as the real Karmapa, they should defend him all the way and announce that he is the REAL Karmapa and the other is the fake one. There is no need for them to be afraid and just make the statement.

Why are they delaying the announcement at this crucial time? Are they regretting in recognizing the Karmapa that is causing alot of troubles for them now? Even before the scandal is exposed, the Karmapa already ran off to the west for a year and refused to come back. The relationship between the Karmapa and CTA is already not good.

Whatever it is, CTA needs to come out of hiding and let us know who is the real Karmapa already. Many CTA followers are asking and they have the responsibility to clear the doubt since they are the one who created the 2 Karmapa situation. Please Tibetan leadership, please let us know who is the real Karmapa so we don't practice the wrong teaching and go to hell.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Harold Musetescu on January 31, 2019, 02:37:15 PM
Why the Tibetan leadership still refuses to come out and make a stand for their chosen candidate of Karmapa? Since they have recognized Ogyen Trinley Dorje as the real Karmapa,

As  you have stated the Dalai Lama and the CTA  have stated publicly since 1992 that Ogyen Trinley Dorje is the real Karmapa.

Do they REALLY need to do it again and again and again and again???

End of story and time to move on to something a little more important.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Harold Musetescu on January 31, 2019, 02:46:06 PM
The question is not if the CTA still recognizes Ogyen Trinley Dorje as the Karmapa.

The question is does the 14th Dalai Lama still recognize him.

The CTA does not have the power to recognize anyone as a Tulku.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Drolma on February 01, 2019, 08:21:26 AM
Now that there are 2 Karmapas, when is the CTA going to tell us who is the real Karmapa? They cannot let the fake Karmapa destroy the lineage. If the followers follow the fake Karmapa, they will go to hell, this is very serious.

The CTA has so much experience in recognising the real reincarnate lamas, they sure will have the capability to identify the real and the fake Karmapa. They did recognise the real Panchen Lama, didn't they? They are so concerned about people following the fake Panchen Lama, why are they not doing the same for the Karmapa?

Many Karmapa followers are very confused now.  They are not sure who is the real Karmapa. For the beginners, it is even worse, they might just decide not to practice Vajrayana anymore, this will damage their spiritual path. The CTA has to protect the welfare of the spiritual practitioners, they have to make an announcement of who the real Karmapa is!
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: dsnowlion on February 02, 2019, 09:57:14 AM
Sad to say the truth loud out - The Dharamsala office (Dalai Lama's office) is just using these high lamas to gain money, fame and support. Like for example, one of the two Karmapas must be the fake one. IF the fake one is going to be Ugyen Thrinley, obviously he was Dharamsala's puppet and I am glad he is out from India and Dharamsala office's control now.

Dharamsala office couldn't care less about what is happening with the Karma Kagyu's lineage. I guess they are now scratching head thinking how to deal with the incarnation of Sharmapa. Maybe the Dharamsala office is going to recognise their own Sharmapa?

Oh dear, please, not again! 3 Karmapas, 2 Sharmapas, 2 Panchens, 2 Dromo Geshes, 2 Kundelings...

Dharamsala office is annoying


LOL LOL LOL Next there will be 4 Karmapas! Oh my goodness... you said it! CTA is just using them and that is why the KARMAPAS are avoiding them, BOTH of them... the one Dalai Lama recognised doesn't even wanna come home and crying abuse and depression and now has this girlfriend(s) scandal http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/the-dalai-lamas-protege-karmapas-scandal-growing-big/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/the-dalai-lamas-protege-karmapas-scandal-growing-big/)

The Thaye Dorje runs away and avoids bumping into the Dalai Lama who tried to get a picture with him? Why did Dalai Lama do that if the Dalai Lama does not recognise him as the Karmapa unless he knew it all along and could not retract his recognition due to face, and because of this created a split in the Karma Kagyu lineage.... so sad. 

Looks like CTA cannot even recognise good tulku from fake/bad ones. Hmmm, maybe it is time for them to just close shop since they cannot seem to get anything right and all they do is create more problems for their own people. What have they actually done for Tibetans is Tibet seriously?
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Tracy on February 02, 2019, 01:09:53 PM
So many people are asking the CTA to tell them who the real Karmapas is but until today the CTA has not said a single word! It is very important for the CTA to tell us who the real Karmapa is. If people follow the fake Karmapa, the teachings they are following will be fake and they will end up in hell!

One of the CTA's responsibilities is to ensure the Tibetan Buddhism is preserved and remains pure, they must have some guideline to do that. They have done a lot of work to preserve the Gelug lineage, why is that not so much is done for other lineages? They can issue a statement and put it up on their official website to inform everyone, why are they not doing it?

Is it because the Karmapa issue does not bring any benefit to the CTA that is why they are keeping quiet? So, in fact, the CTA is a hypocrite, they don't do much to preserve the Buddhist traditions, they only want money and power. They make use of the high lamas to help them make money. The CTA is the most useless government in the world!
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Alex on February 03, 2019, 09:48:59 AM
Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje’s scandal is getting bigger and bigger in Taiwan and surprisingly, the Tibetan leadership did not help their darling Karmapa out. They did not release any statement to protect him or whatsoever. They just enjoy the news and let their darling Karmapa to fend for himself.

Since a year ago, Karma Ogyen Trinley escaped to the US with the given reason for receiving treatment for his health issues. Since then, it is obvious that the Tibetan leadership’s relation with Karmapa had gone down the drain. Karmapa also gave a long a depressing talk about how he is being suppressed during his stay in India and his actions are being controlled tightly.

Now that Karmapa Ogyen Trinley decided to fight back the suppression from Tibetan leadership by getting a Dominican passport. Tibetan leadership lost their control over the Karmapa since they can not control his movement and traveling anymore. The Karmapa is free to come and go as he wishes with the new passport. The Tibetan leadership had lost another powerful ally on their side and they are not happy about it.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: pemachen on February 03, 2019, 10:12:47 AM
Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje’s scandal is getting bigger and bigger in Taiwan and surprisingly, the Tibetan leadership did not help their darling Karmapa out. They did not release any statement to protect him or whatsoever. They just enjoy the news and let their darling Karmapa to fend for himself.

India doesn't accept Karmapa Ogyen Trinley, and the Chinese crowd are shocked with this scandal - this false news is damaging Tibetan Buddhism's reputation in Taiwan and Hong Kong. But I guess the CTA doesn't give a damn, after all, their cash cow His Holiness is still alive and giving teachings, so Lobsang Sangay cannot be bothered to address Karmapa Ogyen Trinley's scandal. After all, he's got more travel and holiday plans to rake money off more countries in the West. Now that Karmapa Ogyen Trinley is no longer the 'successor' of the Dalai Lama, who cares?  8)
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Harold Musetescu on February 03, 2019, 12:38:36 PM
Maybe everything Ogyen Trinley Dorje is doing is to ensure that he doesn't become the Dalai Lama's handpicked 'successor'.

Maybe him did all this was in fact his way to turn the Dalai Lama the CTA  and India against him.

If he did all these on purpose it does seems to have worked quite well for him.

He has now publicly broken all ties with them.

He is now a free man and can act like a free man.

Now he can go back to being the Karmapa and not the 'successor' or 'puppet' to the Dalai Lama and his CTA.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Drolma on February 03, 2019, 01:41:11 PM
Is the sex scandal a set-up by the CTA or someone else? Some people said it didn't make sense that the Karmapa could have had a relationship while he was in India. He was under strict surveillance of the CTA and the Indian government. If he really had a relationship, the CTA or the Indian government would have known about it and used it to threaten him to return to India.

The photo of the Karmapa taken with the girl cannot really be a proof. The Karmapa takes photos with thousands of people every year, anyone can request to have an audience with him and has the photo taken with him. If the girl wanted to keep the evidence of her relationship with the Karmapa, why did she only keep the audio evidence? She could have kept evidence of her video calls with the Karmapa.

This news was reported only by the Taiwanese tabloid, not the mainstream media. Only some international media shared this news and no other journalists reported on this news. How come? If this scandal is real, many media would want to report it, but this is not the case.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Tracy on February 03, 2019, 02:08:03 PM
India doesn't accept Karmapa Ogyen Trinley, and the Chinese crowd are shocked with this scandal - this false news is damaging Tibetan Buddhism's reputation in Taiwan and Hong Kong. But I guess the CTA doesn't give a damn, after all, their cash cow His Holiness is still alive and giving teachings, so Lobsang Sangay cannot be bothered to address Karmapa Ogyen Trinley's scandal. After all, he's got more travel and holiday plans to rake money off more countries in the West. Now that Karmapa Ogyen Trinley is no longer the 'successor' of the Dalai Lama, who cares?  8)

The CTA is still not announcing who is the real Karmapa. They cannot say the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley is fake because if they do that what is the message they are sending to the public? They will lose more credibility because it implies that they always make the wrong decision. This will also mean the basis for them to ban Dorje Shugden is also very dubious.

Since it is not the CTA's agenda to protect the welfare of the Tibetans or to preserve the Tibetan Buddhism, I don't think they will issue any statement. Unless they see there is a benefit for them to do that. Now that the Karmapa has left the CTA, the CTA will totally ignore him or want to have anything to do with him. They will remain silent.

Knowing how revengeful the CTA is, I am not surprised if this sex scandal is a set-up by CTA. They will do everything to take revenge, they will even plot to murder, this is how evil they are. The CTA is hungry for power, money and fame, they don't care about the Tibetans or welfare of the Tibetan Buddhists.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Pema8 on February 03, 2019, 02:58:47 PM
It is a shame that the CTA is not acting and preventing the Karma Kagyu Lineage to be damaged and even destroyed by a fake Karmapa.

Traditionally the Karmapa and the Karma Kagyu Lineage do not need the CTA but since there is a fake Karmapa which was installed by the CTA, they should stop the damage as soon as possible.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Alex on February 06, 2019, 05:45:12 AM
Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje is fed up of how Tibetan leadership has been treating him and that is why he is rebelling against them. He has been recognized by the Dalai Lama as the Karmapa since a young age and he was controlled by the Tibetan leadership since then.

The Tibetan leadership is grooming him to be a successor to His Holiness the Dalai Lama which is totally absurd. Tibetan leadership is desperate for power and their fear of losing power grew as His Holiness the Dalai Lama grows old. They need a new young and powerful lama to control.

Hence, the Karmapa is the best choice. However, their plan backfired and Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje escaped to the western country. He stayed over 1 year and now he refused to come back to India and took up a Dominican passport to escape from the clutches of Tibetan government. Tibetan leadership had lost their best bid for post-Dalai Lama time which means once His Holiness the Dalai Lama passed away, they will lose their influence and Tibetans In Exile will have freedom once again.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: dsnowlion on February 06, 2019, 10:52:40 AM
Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje is fed up of how Tibetan leadership has been treating him and that is why he is rebelling against them. He has been recognized by the Dalai Lama as the Karmapa since a young age and he was controlled by the Tibetan leadership since then.

The Tibetan leadership is grooming him to be a successor to His Holiness the Dalai Lama which is totally absurd. Tibetan leadership is desperate for power and their fear of losing power grew as His Holiness the Dalai Lama grows old. They need a new young and powerful lama to control.

Hence, the Karmapa is the best choice. However, their plan backfired and Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje escaped to the western country. He stayed over 1 year and now he refused to come back to India and took up a Dominican passport to escape from the clutches of Tibetan government. Tibetan leadership had lost their best bid for post-Dalai Lama time which means once His Holiness the Dalai Lama passed away, they will lose their influence and Tibetans In Exile will have freedom once again.

Hahaha very true what you say! Their plan sure backfired and bitting them on the backside.

Even before the Dalai Lama passes... the CTA is already sinking! This is the karma they get back for all the chaos and disharmony they created for so many people, Dorje Shugden and Karma Kagyu. They should have remained a true democratic government and not get involved with spiritual affairs but I guess the truth is the Dalai Lama is still KING.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Tracy on February 06, 2019, 03:01:36 PM
The CTA thinks they are like in the old Tibetan time and they can rule the Tibetans like they are the lord and the Tibetans are the slave. The Tibetans did not lose their country for no reason. Most of the Tibetans were nomads and they are not highly educated. The people who ran the government were not highly educated either. Tibet has been a very isolated place, the Tibetans were not exposed to the outside world, Tibet was not run like a country but rather like a village.

The CTA continues the tradition of running their government like in the same old day. They exploit their own people for money and they fight among themselves for power. They don't think a lama getting involved in politics in an issue, what they want is how to control and make money for themselves by using the lama. Maintaining a precious lineage is never the plan.

The Dalai Lama has helped them to control Tibetans and made money for the 6 decades while they are in India. If it was not because of the Dalai Lama, they will not survive for this long. They need another high lama to do the job so the next best person will be the Karmapa. But little did they know, the Karmapa betrayed them! Lobsang Sangay and his gang must be very panic now.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Alex on February 09, 2019, 05:56:23 PM
Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje is fed up of how Tibetan leadership has been treating him and that is why he is rebelling against them. He has been recognized by the Dalai Lama as the Karmapa since a young age and he was controlled by the Tibetan leadership since then.

The Tibetan leadership is grooming him to be a successor to His Holiness the Dalai Lama which is totally absurd. Tibetan leadership is desperate for power and their fear of losing power grew as His Holiness the Dalai Lama grows old. They need a new young and powerful lama to control.

Hence, the Karmapa is the best choice. However, their plan backfired and Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje escaped to the western country. He stayed over 1 year and now he refused to come back to India and took up a Dominican passport to escape from the clutches of Tibetan government. Tibetan leadership had lost their best bid for post-Dalai Lama time which means once His Holiness the Dalai Lama passed away, they will lose their influence and Tibetans In Exile will have freedom once again.

Hahaha very true what you say! Their plan sure backfired and bitting them on the backside.

Even before the Dalai Lama passes... the CTA is already sinking! This is the karma they get back for all the chaos and disharmony they created for so many people, Dorje Shugden and Karma Kagyu. They should have remained a true democratic government and not get involved with spiritual affairs but I guess the truth is the Dalai Lama is still KING.


Tibetan leadership likes to call themselves a democratic country but they breached one of the most important rules in the constitution of democracy which is religious freedom. No democratic country will persecute another religion without a valid reason. The Tibetan leadership has been prosecuting Dorje Shugden practitioners for years and until now they still continue to think of new ways to make sure the ban is being carried out.

The Tibetan leadership had released books and videos against the practice. Until now, they still did not change their stance on the Dorje Shugden practice despite numerous pleas from Dorje Shugden practitioners to please reconsider the ban because it is illogical.

They are trying to impress the Western countries to they will continue their support but in actuality, that is the biggest lie to tell the world they are a democratic country while His Holiness the Dalai Lama is the god-king of Tibet.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Drolma on February 13, 2019, 03:59:27 AM
The Tibetan government is not a democratic country, they say they are but they are not. If you know someone in the government, you can get a job easily or you can get away with the crime you have committed. For example, the lamas who are involved in the sex scandals. The Dalai Lama and CTA have known about it for a long time but they never take action.

The CTA always has a double standard. If Dorje Shugden followers have a good relationship with the Chinese, they are called the Chinese spies who are receiving money from the Chinese to create disharmony. But there are also many Lama of other lineages who have a good relationship with the Chinese and their main sponsors are Chinese, why didn't the CTA condemn them?

Very clearly, the CTA is only using Dorje Shugden as a scapegoat to cover their failure and distract people from looking at what they have done for the past 60 years. The CTA is very money minded and power hungry, they will do whatever it takes to make themselves rich, that includes indirectly murdering the Tibetans. The CTA encourages the Tibetans to self-immolate so they can use the self-immolation case to get more donations. As for the Karmapa issue, as of now, there is no more benefit by getting involved in Karma Kagyu dispute anymore. This is why the CTA is keeping quiet and not saying anything.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: daka on February 13, 2019, 09:26:06 AM
The CTA must have thought that Karmapa Ogyen Trinley will forever be their puppet, and the fact that Karmapa Ogyen Trinley dares to betray them has caught them off guard. What can they say now? The Dalai Lama has recognized the black Karmapa ages ago, unrecognizing him now will not bring them any benefit. The only way is to recognize Karmapa Thaye Dorje, but why Karmapa Thaye Dorje want to accept that? So the CTA now has lost two Karmapas, what are they supposed to say? Whatever they say will only make them look even more untrustable. I believe the CTA will just stay quiet on this.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Alex on February 13, 2019, 09:47:43 AM
The CTA must have thought that Karmapa Ogyen Trinley will forever be their puppet, and the fact that Karmapa Ogyen Trinley dares to betray them has caught them off guard. What can they say now? The Dalai Lama has recognized the black Karmapa ages ago, unrecognizing him now will not bring them any benefit. The only way is to recognize Karmapa Thaye Dorje, but why Karmapa Thaye Dorje want to accept that? So the CTA now has lost two Karmapas, what are they supposed to say? Whatever they say will only make them look even more untrustable. I believe the CTA will just stay quiet on this.

That is exactly why CTA has stayed quiet until now. They have been quite vocal about other lamas such as the Panchen Lama when His Holiness recognized Karmapa Ogyen Trinley. Now, why are they being so quiet and not even protecting their own Karmapa when he is involved in the relationship scandal with the Taiwanese girl?

Karmapa Ogyen Trinley is their sole hope in controlling the Tibetans in exile once His Holiness the Dalai Lama passes away. They have been nurturing him and grooming him to be the successor of His Holiness. However, their plan backfired when the Karmapa felt it was too much and escaped from India to foreign countries.

He expressed his disappointment about how he is treated by the CTA and how he was controlled to badly. He could not carry out his duties as the Karmapa and also he could not even get the education that he wanted because his teachers are not near him. At last, he took on a Dominican passport and renounced his Tibetan yellow IC which sends a clear message to CTA that he will never be under their clutches anymore and he is obviously fighting back now.

Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Alex on February 15, 2019, 05:07:06 AM
So many people are asking the CTA to tell them who the real Karmapas is but until today the CTA has not said a single word! It is very important for the CTA to tell us who the real Karmapa is. If people follow the fake Karmapa, the teachings they are following will be fake and they will end up in hell!

One of the CTA's responsibilities is to ensure the Tibetan Buddhism is preserved and remains pure, they must have some guideline to do that. They have done a lot of work to preserve the Gelug lineage, why is that not so much is done for other lineages? They can issue a statement and put it up on their official website to inform everyone, why are they not doing it?

Is it because the Karmapa issue does not bring any benefit to the CTA that is why they are keeping quiet? So, in fact, the CTA is a hypocrite, they don't do much to preserve the Buddhist traditions, they only want money and power. They make use of the high lamas to help them make money. CTA is the most useless government in the world!

It is very obvious that the Tibetan leadership are unwilling to make any announcement regarding which Karmapa is the real one because they have lost confidence in their own Karmapa which is recognized by His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Things have not been going smooth between Karmapa Ogyen Trinley and the CTA.

Karmapa has not been exactly easy to control and manipulate by the CTA. He has his own will and he is not willing to be controlled by the CTA any further. He made his point clear by fleeing India and taking on a Dominican passport. His defiance is clear and there is nothing the Tibetan leadership can do about it.

I guess Tibetan leadership is regretting why they did not recognize Karmapa Thaye Dorje now because that Karmapa seems to be doing quite well especially that his son could be very well the Sharmapa. CTA sneakily wanted to get close to this Karmapa now because obviously, this Karmapa is way more powerful and influential than Karmapa Ogyen Trinley. That is why, they cannot announce who is the true Karmapa yet because they are trying to get Karmapa Ogyen Trinley under control and in the meantime, they are trying to get close to Karmapa Thaye Dorje.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: SabS on February 16, 2019, 06:38:44 AM
After such a long time of people asking the Tibetan Leaders to state who is the real Karmapa, no answer has been forthcoming. Guess they dare not! After all, with either one, they will be in the wrong.

If they go with Karmapa Ogyen Trinley, he ran away and got himself a passport from Dominican Republic and stayed away from India for over a year. Indian government is seeking to persecute him for some alleged crimes and he received much publicity about his alleged affair with many girlfriends. He publically complained about his ordination from the Dalai Lama and his confined life.

As for Karmapa Thaye Dorje, well, he is giving the Tibetan Leaders the cold shoulder. And I don't blame him one bit. He was treated so shoddily back when he was young and Sharmapa requested for his recognition and ordination. So much respect given in the request when there was no need to the requests at all as Sharmapa himself has the authority to do either in lieu of the Karmapa. And in all these years, obstacles had always been created for Karmapa Thaye Dorje wherever he went, to put him down but it only made the fact of his attainment all the more as his enlightened activities grew in spite of all the ill intent. And now, Sharmapa has reincarnated as Karmapa Thaye Dorje's son.

So yeah, the Tibetan Leaders will not dare to declare this or that for they will be wrong themselves. Just as they had been wrong in many choices and decisions made that now are becoming apparent. Like the Chinese Panchen Lama as the real incarnate of the previous, the practice of enlightened protector Dorje Shugden, China's status in the world and even their own welcome in the world (we know that many countries are shunning them for the good relationship with China). Too bad, karma created is coming back to bite now.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Alex on February 17, 2019, 06:46:48 PM
After such a long time of people asking the Tibetan Leaders to state who is the real Karmapa, no answer has been forthcoming. Guess they dare not! After all, with either one, they will be in the wrong.

If they go with Karmapa Ogyen Trinley, he ran away and got himself a passport from Dominican Republic and stayed away from India for over a year. Indian government is seeking to persecute him for some alleged crimes and he received much publicity about his alleged affair with many girlfriends. He publically complained about his ordination from the Dalai Lama and his confined life.

As for Karmapa Thaye Dorje, well, he is giving the Tibetan Leaders the cold shoulder. And I don't blame him one bit. He was treated so shoddily back when he was young and Sharmapa requested for his recognition and ordination. So much respect given in the request when there was no need to the requests at all as Sharmapa himself has the authority to do either in lieu of the Karmapa. And in all these years, obstacles had always been created for Karmapa Thaye Dorje wherever he went, to put him down but it only made the fact of his attainment all the more as his enlightened activities grew in spite of all the ill intent. And now, Sharmapa has reincarnated as Karmapa Thaye Dorje's son.

So yeah, the Tibetan Leaders will not dare to declare this or that for they will be wrong themselves. Just as they had been wrong in many choices and decisions made that now are becoming apparent. Like the Chinese Panchen Lama as the real incarnate of the previous, the practice of enlightened protector Dorje Shugden, China's status in the world and even their own welcome in the world (we know that many countries are shunning them for the good relationship with China). Too bad, karma created is coming back to bite now.

Sabs, you are absolutely correct regarding this and this is the reason why the Tibetan leadership has been very quiet about the Karmapa issue considering that they are the one who insisted to recognize Karmapa Ogyen Trinley. They made a lot of noise too when they recognize their own Panchen Lama and starts to talk bad about the Panchen Lama that was recognized by the Chinese.

They are the one who created the 2 Karmapa mess and they will have to suffer the consequences. The Tibetan leadership will suffer either way and they will not like it. This is why they should not have stuck their hand into the Karmapa issue within the Karma Kagyu sect.

Now that they are unable to get Karmapa Ogyen Trinley back, they will be panicking for the post-Dalai Lama era where His Holiness has passed away and the new reincarnation is not recognized yet. During this time, CTA needs a strong and powerful Lama to control the Tibetans and now since they do not have anyone that can replace His Holiness, their power will drop significantly and soon they will lose the influence on the Tibetans.


Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: pemachen on February 27, 2019, 07:31:11 AM

I guess Tibetan leadership is regretting why they did not recognize Karmapa Thaye Dorje now because that Karmapa seems to be doing quite well especially that his son could be very well the Sharmapa. CTA sneakily wanted to get close to this Karmapa now because obviously, this Karmapa is way more powerful and influential than Karmapa Ogyen Trinley. That is why, they cannot announce who is the true Karmapa yet because they are trying to get Karmapa Ogyen Trinley under control and in the meantime, they are trying to get close to Karmapa Thaye Dorje.


Oh definitely they are trying to get chummy now, but Karmapa Thaye Dorje does not need the CTA for anything. Read up on the news about how His Holiness the Dalai Lama tried to show up and 'meet' Karmapa Thaye Dorje during the recent Kagyu Monlam  8)
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Tracy on March 01, 2019, 03:06:32 PM
To be honest, I think the CTA is not going to say anything about the 2 Karmapas. We all know how the CTA operates, they don't operate based on doing the right thing, they operate based on their interest. Everything they do revolve around what they can get out of it.

When the CTA recognised the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley, they wanted to groom him to become the next Dalai Lama, to use him to control people. It is definitely not because they were trying to resolve the dispute within the Karma Kagyu lineage. Unfortunately, their candidate ran away and he will never go back to them to become their puppet.

This is a big slap to the CTA, they must be very upset and angry with the Karmapa. Making a further announcement on who the real Karmapa is, does not bring benefit to the CTA at all. Therefore, it is not surprising the CTA is keeping quiet. The welfare of the Tibetans or spiritual practitioners is not CTA's concern, they only care about themselves.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Harold Musetescu on March 01, 2019, 05:36:28 PM
The CTA is not keeping quite about who is the real Karmapa.

They told the world years ago who was and who was not the real Karmapa.

What's all this made up BS about "CTA tell us who is the real Karmapa".

Time to grow up and move along to something more meaningful.
 8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: pemachen on March 03, 2019, 04:57:18 AM
Has anyone heard anything about the Dalai Lama trying to make a connection with Karmapa Thaye Dorje? Now that Karmapa Ogyen Trinley is missing from the scene. Also, anyone heard any news from Karmapa Ogyen Trinley?
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Drolma on March 03, 2019, 10:10:07 AM
Has anyone heard anything about the Dalai Lama trying to make a connection with Karmapa Thaye Dorje? Now that Karmapa Ogyen Trinley is missing from the scene. Also, anyone heard any news from Karmapa Ogyen Trinley?

There were people saying that last December when the Karmapa Thaye Dorje was attending the Karma Kagyu Monlam festival, the Dalai Lama was trying to be friendly with him. However, the Karmapa Thaye Dorje ignored him. It is not surprising that the Karmapa ignored the Dalai Lama, it was the Dalai Lama who did not want to acknowledge the Karmapa Thaye Dorje in the first place.

The Karmapa Thaye Dorje is smart not to be associated with the Dalai Lama or the CTA. If he is associated with them, he might be used as a political puppet and he will not be able to do as much Dharma work as he is doing now. Since every tradition in Tibetan Buddhism has its own tradition to recognise the reincarnation of their lamas, they really don't need any endorsement from the Dalai Lama.

As for the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley, it is said that he is in a retreat now. He did not make any announcement on his sex scandal and there is no more update or news on the scandal. I find it weird because news like this especially when the famous Karmapa is involved it will create a big scene internationally but only Tawainese media were covering the news. It makes me wonder if it is another dirty job from the CTA trying to destroy Karmapa's reputation.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Tracy on March 07, 2019, 09:07:09 AM
Is the CTA going to announce who the real Karmapa is? It has been so long since the 2 Karmapas met up and the CTA has not said a single word on their meeting. As usual, when the CTA sees no benefit for them, they will not do anything.

In the past, the CTA recognised the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley because the CTA wanted to groom him to become the next Dalai Lama. They don't have their Panchen Lama and within the Gelug lineage, there is no other lama who has the same commanding power as the Dalai Lama. Hence, the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley became the next best candidate.

Now that the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley has run away and the other Karmapa does not give face to the CTA, there is no point for the CTA to meddle in the 2 Karmapas issue anymore. If they make the announcement, they will create problems for themselves because people will doubt them and the Indian government will be very upset with the CTA. The CTA doesn't care if a lineage will continue on, they only care about their own financial interest.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: pemachen on March 10, 2019, 09:54:15 PM
Is the CTA going to announce who the real Karmapa is? It has been so long since the 2 Karmapas met up and the CTA has not said a single word on their meeting. As usual, when the CTA sees no benefit for them, they will not do anything.

In the past, the CTA recognised the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley because the CTA wanted to groom him to become the next Dalai Lama. They don't have their Panchen Lama and within the Gelug lineage, there is no other lama who has the same commanding power as the Dalai Lama. Hence, the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley became the next best candidate.

Now that the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley has run away and the other Karmapa does not give face to the CTA, there is no point for the CTA to meddle in the 2 Karmapas issue anymore. If they make the announcement, they will create problems for themselves because people will doubt them and the Indian government will be very upset with the CTA. The CTA doesn't care if a lineage will continue on, they only care about their own financial interest.

I am also wondering the same thing. Up till today, the CTA is still quiet about Karmapa Thaye Dorje. Will CTA try to be friendly with Karmapa Thaye Dorje soon since Karmapa Ogyen Trinley ran away?
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Alex on March 11, 2019, 07:25:28 AM
The long song and dance about who is the real Karmapa is a show put up by the CTA to confuse the Karma Kagyu followers in order for CTA to control them much easier. Now that the Karmapa that they had chosen became less favorable due to all the scandals and problems that he had given CTA, CTA is trying to get close to the Karmapa that they do not recognize last time?

It seems like the whole holy sacred lineage of the Karmapa is a sandbox for CTA to play with. They can play around with the Karmapa as and when they like and changes their stance on the real Karmapa? They are very disrespectful to the lineage and holy beings thinking that they can manipulate them to their own favor.

Now both Karmapa refuses to listen to them and it is very obvious why it is so. But they still have to come up with a statement announcing who is the real Karmapa because of the whole mess that they had created by recognizing a Karmapa on their own against the objection from the Sharmapa who is the 2nd highest lama in Karma Kagyu lineage after the Karmapa.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: pemachen on March 12, 2019, 10:10:53 PM
Now both Karmapa refuses to listen to them and it is very obvious why it is so. But they still have to come up with a statement announcing who is the real Karmapa because of the whole mess that they had created by recognizing a Karmapa on their own against the objection from the Sharmapa who is the 2nd highest lama in Karma Kagyu lineage after the Karmapa.

On a side note, the Kagyus are not always friendly with Tibetan leadership or Gaden Phodrang. The Kagyus are rumoured to have procured the Fifth Dalai Lama’s hair and placed it under the steps at the front entrance of Tsurphu Monastery. This was done deliberately so that all who entered the monastery would have to symbolically step over the Dalai Lama, which was considered a grave insult. This incident is one of many that tells of the historic enmity between the Karma Kagyus and the Fifth Dalai Lama and his government. It is rumoured that the Fifth Dalai Lama’s hair is still under the Tsurphu Monastery steps.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: SabS on March 13, 2019, 06:56:59 AM
Now both Karmapa refuses to listen to them and it is very obvious why it is so. But they still have to come up with a statement announcing who is the real Karmapa because of the whole mess that they had created by recognizing a Karmapa on their own against the objection from the Sharmapa who is the 2nd highest lama in Karma Kagyu lineage after the Karmapa.

On a side note, the Kagyus are not always friendly with Tibetan leadership or Gaden Phodrang. The Kagyus are rumoured to have procured the Fifth Dalai Lama’s hair and placed it under the steps at the front entrance of Tsurphu Monastery. This was done deliberately so that all who entered the monastery would have to symbolically step over the Dalai Lama, which was considered a grave insult. This incident is one of many that tells of the historic enmity between the Karma Kagyus and the Fifth Dalai Lama and his government. It is rumoured that the Fifth Dalai Lama’s hair is still under the Tsurphu Monastery steps.


Wow! Thank you Pemachen for this interesting side note. It is funny how humans are when on one hand, we accept the Dalai Lamas and Karmapas as enlightened beings and on the other hand still have that mentality of seeing them as humans, subject to our pettiness. Placing of the 5th Dalai Lama's hair in the step seem so petty and often than not, it is those under the Dalai Lama that are the culprits. So why demean an attained being and create further karma? Lol!
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Drolma on March 14, 2019, 08:36:57 AM
As the leadership of the Tibetans in the exiled community, the CTA definitely has the power to make things right. While the Dalai Lama is still around, they can easily use the name of the Dalai Lama to try resolve the conflict in Karma Kagyu lineage. Unfortunately, the CTA is not doing that because everything they do is motivated by what benefits will they give.

What the CTA is capable of is creating conflict and tension in the Tibetan community, and they leave a mess behind. Solving a problem is too much of an effort and it brings more work to the CTA, they will not want to do that. They prefer to travel all around the world to enjoy free holidays and pretend to be a pitiful victim.

Now that the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley has run away, there is no reason for the CTA to get involved in the 2 Karmapas issue again because they don't see any benefit in doing that. It is a messy problem, they will have to deal with so many people and it will be very stressful. Knowing the members of the CTA only want an easy life and be comfortable, they will continue to keep quiet and do nothing about the 2 Karmapas issue.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: PrajNa on March 22, 2019, 03:12:26 AM
Now that the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley has run away, there is no reason for the CTA to get involved in the 2 Karmapas issue again because they don't see any benefit in doing that. It is a messy problem, they will have to deal with so many people and it will be very stressful. Knowing the members of the CTA only want an easy life and be comfortable, they will continue to keep quiet and do nothing about the 2 Karmapas issue.

This is very bad. They really don't care about their spiritual/religious leaders and the mess they have created with this 2 Karmapas issue. Now that one ran away, and the other one is not recognised by His Holiness the Dalai Lama, what would happen to the Kagyu school?
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Tracy on March 22, 2019, 03:03:52 PM

This is very bad. They really don't care about their spiritual/religious leaders and the mess they have created with this 2 Karmapas issue. Now that one ran away, and the other one is not recognised by His Holiness the Dalai Lama, what would happen to the Kagyu school?

Actually, the future for the Kagyu lineage is brighter now than before. It came as a big surprise when the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley gave up the Indian IC and became the citizen of the Dominican Republic. It was even a bigger surprise when the 2 Karmapas met up.

What the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley did really upset the CTA but this is a very courageous act. It may look rebellious but it is a clear sign that people are fed up with the CTA. The Karmapa Ogyen Trinley cares about the Kagyu lineage more than being politically correct, that is why he ran away in order to do more Dharma work and he wanted to reconcile with the other Karmapa.

Now the Kagyu tradition is no longer associated with the CTA anymore, this is actually a piece of good news. The 2 Karmapas can work together to clear the doubts in Kagyu lineage and continue to spread their precious teachings. The CTA only destroys a lineage but never preserves it. They create doubts but never try to resolve them.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Alex on March 23, 2019, 01:08:22 PM
This is ridiculous that CTA still has not chosen who is the real Karmapa between Karmapa Ogyen Trinley and Karmapa Thaye Dorje. Why is it so difficult for them to choose the real Karmapa? They recognized Karmapa Ogyen Trinley so many years ago when Sharmapa already recognized Karmapa Thaye Dorje as the true Karmapa. They went against Sharmapa's wishes by recognizing their own Karmapa and used His Holiness's fame to garner support for Karmapa Ogyen Trinley.

Since they are the one that recognized Karmapa Ogyen Trinley, why did they not announcing Karmapa Ogyen Trinley is the real Karmapa now? Why is there a delay? Are they afraid to do so because Karmapa Ogyen Trinley is not exactly favorable for the public now with the scandal that is going on?

I heard the Tibetan government wanted to meet up with Karmapa Thaye Dorje at the Karma Kagyu Monlam but Karmapa was not there. If they rejected him as the real Karmapa when they recognise Ogyen Trinley, why are they trying to meet him now? Suspicious.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Rowntree on March 23, 2019, 11:52:00 PM
It was a big slap on the Dalai Lama's face when he visited the Kagyu Monlam venue. There was no Karmapa Thaye Dorje and the media that went with him were disappointed. I bet they wanted to stir some news but too bad Karmapa Thaye Dorje knew the trick and avoided it. After all, he already gave birth to the Sharmapa. He doesn't need the CTA or the Dalai Lama for sure!


I guess Tibetan leadership is regretting why they did not recognize Karmapa Thaye Dorje now because that Karmapa seems to be doing quite well especially that his son could be very well the Sharmapa. CTA sneakily wanted to get close to this Karmapa now because obviously, this Karmapa is way more powerful and influential than Karmapa Ogyen Trinley. That is why, they cannot announce who is the true Karmapa yet because they are trying to get Karmapa Ogyen Trinley under control and in the meantime, they are trying to get close to Karmapa Thaye Dorje.


Oh definitely they are trying to get chummy now, but Karmapa Thaye Dorje does not need the CTA for anything. Read up on the news about how His Holiness the Dalai Lama tried to show up and 'meet' Karmapa Thaye Dorje during the recent Kagyu Monlam  8)
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Alex on March 25, 2019, 03:15:07 AM
It was a big slap on the Dalai Lama's face when he visited the Kagyu Monlam venue. There was no Karmapa Thaye Dorje and the media that went with him were disappointed. I bet they wanted to stir some news but too bad Karmapa Thaye Dorje knew the trick and avoided it. After all, he already gave birth to the Sharmapa. He doesn't need the CTA or the Dalai Lama for sure!


I guess Tibetan leadership is regretting why they did not recognize Karmapa Thaye Dorje now because that Karmapa seems to be doing quite well especially that his son could be very well the Sharmapa. CTA sneakily wanted to get close to this Karmapa now because obviously, this Karmapa is way more powerful and influential than Karmapa Ogyen Trinley. That is why, they cannot announce who is the true Karmapa yet because they are trying to get Karmapa Ogyen Trinley under control and in the meantime, they are trying to get close to Karmapa Thaye Dorje.


Oh definitely they are trying to get chummy now, but Karmapa Thaye Dorje does not need the CTA for anything. Read up on the news about how His Holiness the Dalai Lama tried to show up and 'meet' Karmapa Thaye Dorje during the recent Kagyu Monlam  8)

What a shame when His Holiness went to Kagyu Monlam and no one is there to meet him. I bet Karmapa Thaye Dorje knew about CTA's evil plan and decided to ditch the event that day. Good for him! I hope he never be involved with the CTA because CTA can only bring harm to him. He does not need them so it is better for him to stay away from CTA. Karmapa Ogyen Trinley is the perfect example of this. Look how miserable he is now with all the lawsuits as well as scandal. Let him be a warning to all the high lamas to think twice before getting involved with CTA.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: dsnowlion on March 25, 2019, 04:06:13 AM
The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?

Of course not, because they are a FAKE themselves hahahahaha  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Rowntree on March 25, 2019, 09:56:18 PM
I wonder what the Karma Kagyu will turn into in the near future. With the Sharmapa born in the Karmapa Thaye Dorje's family, they will be powerful to command the whole lineage. I remember that the Kagyu didn't work with the 5th Dalai Lama and did not want to follow his government. "In retaliation, the Kagyus are rumoured to have procured the Fifth Dalai Lama’s hair and placed it under the steps at the front entrance of Tsurphu Monastery. This was done deliberately so that all who entered the monastery would have to symbolically step over the Dalai Lama, which was considered a grave insult." If you are interested, read this article http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/cta-and-the-kagyus/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/cta-and-the-kagyus/)

The Kagyu had a history of "going against" the Dalai Lama and the Sharmapa especially, in few reincarnations, have brought much grief to the Dalai Lama. Just like the late 14th Sharmapa Mipham Chokyi Lodro who went to the 14th Dalai Lama and requested him to not recognise Karmapa Ogyen Trinley, the candidate presented by Tai Situ. He has asked the Dalai Lama to recognise his candidate Karmapa Thaye Dorje which the Dalai Lama has refused.

So logically, since that request was not accepted, why should the Karmapa Thaye Dorje meet the Dalai Lama now?
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Alex on March 26, 2019, 06:29:53 AM
I wonder what the Karma Kagyu will turn into in the near future. With the Sharmapa born in the Karmapa Thaye Dorje's family, they will be powerful to command the whole lineage. I remember that the Kagyu didn't work with the 5th Dalai Lama and did not want to follow his government. "In retaliation, the Kagyus are rumoured to have procured the Fifth Dalai Lama’s hair and placed it under the steps at the front entrance of Tsurphu Monastery. This was done deliberately so that all who entered the monastery would have to symbolically step over the Dalai Lama, which was considered a grave insult." If you are interested, read this article [url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/cta-and-the-kagyus/[/url] ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/cta-and-the-kagyus/[/url])

The Kagyu had a history of "going against" the Dalai Lama and the Sharmapa especially, in few reincarnations, have brought much grief to the Dalai Lama. Just like the late 14th Sharmapa Mipham Chokyi Lodro who went to the 14th Dalai Lama and requested him to not recognise Karmapa Ogyen Trinley, the candidate presented by Tai Situ. He has asked the Dalai Lama to recognise his candidate Karmapa Thaye Dorje which the Dalai Lama has refused.

So logically, since that request was not accepted, why should the Karmapa Thaye Dorje meet the Dalai Lama now?


His Holiness the Dalai Lama had rejected the Karmapa Thaye Dorje before when Sharmapa first recognized him as the Karmapa. He even refused to ordain him when Sharmapa requested for it. Clearly, His Holiness the Dalai Lama and Tibetan leadership does not want to have anything to do with him.

If that is what they want, why are His Holiness the Dalai Lama and CTA trying to connect with Karmapa Thaye Dorje? What are they trying to do? Aren't they ashamed of what they did and now they try to connect with him? I guess it must be related to Karmapa Ogyen Trinley's rebellion to CTA's wishes.

Karmapa Ogyen Trinley had been running away from CTA and he even took up a Dominican passport. It signifies Karmapa will not be under control of the CTA anymore. CTA needs him to rule over Tibetan during post Dalai Lama era. They are desperate to find a replacement and that is why they are trying to get close to Karmapa Thaye Dorje.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Drolma on March 26, 2019, 05:33:59 PM
When we talk about spiritual organisations, we don't expect to see conflicts. Unfortunately, conflict does exist as most people are still not enlightened. The conflict between the Kagyu and Gelug lineage has existed since a few hundred years ago and it continues on until today.

So this is how the Tibetan leadership works, they don't try to resolve conflicts to bring peace in the community. They let the conflicts continue and create disharmony in their society. That is why the Tibetans lost their country and after struggling for 60 years, there is still no progress in the Tibet cause.

The CTA does not care to preserve the precious Tibetan Buddhist traditions. They intentionally create tension in Gelug lineage by imposing the Dorje Shugden ban. They destroy Kagyu lineage by giving one of the Karmapas recognition and ignore the other. 
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: PrajNa on March 27, 2019, 05:58:10 PM
His Holiness the Dalai Lama had rejected the Karmapa Thaye Dorje before when Sharmapa first recognized him as the Karmapa. He even refused to ordain him when Sharmapa requested for it. Clearly, His Holiness the Dalai Lama and Tibetan leadership does not want to have anything to do with him.

If that is what they want, why are His Holiness the Dalai Lama and CTA trying to connect with Karmapa Thaye Dorje? What are they trying to do? Aren't they ashamed of what they did and now they try to connect with him? I guess it must be related to Karmapa Ogyen Trinley's rebellion to CTA's wishes.

Karmapa Ogyen Trinley had been running away from CTA and he even took up a Dominican passport. It signifies Karmapa will not be under control of the CTA anymore. CTA needs him to rule over Tibetan during post Dalai Lama era. They are desperate to find a replacement and that is why they are trying to get close to Karmapa Thaye Dorje.

I think everyone knows by now that the leaders and leadership of the Central Tibetan Administration have no sense of shane. Lobsang Sangay even had barley grains thrown at him when he was consulting Nechung Choegyal and Tsering Chenga to receive the prophecies concerning the government in 2016. He and the government was later condemned by the deities  for the “mishandling of the gift of democracy” besides the violation of the Sikyong oath. The government was also warned that the mismanagements could lead to negative consequences on His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s health and life. Lobsang Sangay was subsequently advised by the deities to offer apology to His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

Yet after both Lobsang Sangay and Penpa Tsering offered public apology, we knew how Lobsang Sangay plotted and got rid of competition by unfairly sacking Penpa Tsering with absolutely no regret. This is the kind of people we are talking about so why be surprised that the CTA has no shame and wants to connect with Karmapa Thaye Dorje?
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Tracy on March 27, 2019, 05:59:01 PM
When we talk about spiritual organisations, we don't expect to see conflicts. Unfortunately, conflict does exist as most people are still not enlightened. The conflict between the Kagyu and Gelug lineage has existed since a few hundred years ago and it continues on until today.

So this is how the Tibetan leadership works, they don't try to resolve conflicts to bring peace in the community. They let the conflicts continue and create disharmony in their society. That is why the Tibetans lost their country and after struggling for 60 years, there is still no progress in the Tibet cause.

The CTA does not care to preserve the precious Tibetan Buddhist traditions. They intentionally create tension in Gelug lineage by imposing the Dorje Shugden ban. They destroy Kagyu lineage by giving one of the Karmapas recognition and ignore the other.

As the government of the Tibetans, the CTA should be protecting Tibetans and fulfill their promise of freeing Tibet and bringing the Tibetans back to Tibet. However, this is not the case. The CTA always creates conflicts in the Tibetan community and causes disharmony. It seems like the CTA does not have the intention to free Tibet or give a better future to the Tibetans.

As the government of the Tibetans, the CTA can easily be the mediator to resolve the conflict between the two Karmapas but they are not doing it. The CTA actually aggravated the conflict by recognising one of the Karmapas as the legitimate one. The CTA is doing this for their own benefit because they wanted to groom the Karmapa to be the successor of the Dalai Lama.

For the past 60 years, the CTA has not achieved anything significant. They only create problems. They failed to maintain peace and harmony in the Tibetan community. The Tibetan community is divided into many groups and each group cannot get along well with other groups. So to expect the CTA to protect and preserve Kagyu lineage, it is not going to happen.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Alex on March 27, 2019, 06:59:18 PM
His Holiness the Dalai Lama had rejected the Karmapa Thaye Dorje before when Sharmapa first recognized him as the Karmapa. He even refused to ordain him when Sharmapa requested for it. Clearly, His Holiness the Dalai Lama and Tibetan leadership does not want to have anything to do with him.

If that is what they want, why are His Holiness the Dalai Lama and CTA trying to connect with Karmapa Thaye Dorje? What are they trying to do? Aren't they ashamed of what they did and now they try to connect with him? I guess it must be related to Karmapa Ogyen Trinley's rebellion to CTA's wishes.

Karmapa Ogyen Trinley had been running away from CTA and he even took up a Dominican passport. It signifies Karmapa will not be under control of the CTA anymore. CTA needs him to rule over Tibetan during post Dalai Lama era. They are desperate to find a replacement and that is why they are trying to get close to Karmapa Thaye Dorje.

I think everyone knows by now that the leaders and leadership of the Central Tibetan Administration have no sense of shane. Lobsang Sangay even had barley grains thrown at him when he was consulting Nechung Choegyal and Tsering Chenga to receive the prophecies concerning the government in 2016. He and the government was later condemned by the deities  for the “mishandling of the gift of democracy” besides the violation of the Sikyong oath. The government was also warned that the mismanagements could lead to negative consequences on His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s health and life. Lobsang Sangay was subsequently advised by the deities to offer apology to His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

Yet after both Lobsang Sangay and Penpa Tsering offered public apology, we knew how Lobsang Sangay plotted and got rid of competition by unfairly sacking Penpa Tsering with absolutely no regret. This is the kind of people we are talking about so why be surprised that the CTA has no shame and wants to connect with Karmapa Thaye Dorje?

I wonder why the Tibetans did not throw Lobsang Sangay out from the parliament when Nechung manifested displease with him? It is obvious that Lobsang Sangay is doing a really bad job of running the CTA. If the Tibetans listen faithfully to what Nechung says, why are they not asking Lobsang Sangay to resign?

Since they listened to Nechung who speak ill of Dorje Shugden, they should listen to what he reacts toward Lobsang Sangay too. It is unfair for them to be selective and choose what they want to listen to and what they ignore.

Lobsang Sangay is also another shameless fella. How can he act like nothing happened after the State Oracle of Tibet manifested displease with him? He is destroying Tibetans in exile and Tibetans should have seen his tricks now. If they allow this kind of president to govern them, it means that they are ignorant or they are the same as him.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: PrajNa on March 29, 2019, 08:26:20 PM

I wonder why the Tibetans did not throw Lobsang Sangay out from the parliament when Nechung manifested displease with him? It is obvious that Lobsang Sangay is doing a really bad job of running the CTA. If the Tibetans listen faithfully to what Nechung says, why are they not asking Lobsang Sangay to resign?

Since they listened to Nechung who speak ill of Dorje Shugden, they should listen to what he reacts toward Lobsang Sangay too. It is unfair for them to be selective and choose what they want to listen to and what they ignore.

Lobsang Sangay is also another shameless fella. How can he act like nothing happened after the State Oracle of Tibet manifested displease with him? He is destroying Tibetans in exile and Tibetans should have seen his tricks now. If they allow this kind of president to govern them, it means that they are ignorant or they are the same as him.

They did! A group of Tibetans living in India, the US and Nepal, said to number around 70, protested at the Central Tibetan Administration (CTA), Dharamshala, from Mar 17 to 24 2018 to demand the resignation or ouster of President Lobsang Sangay. The protesters were reported to have submitted a petition to the Parliament in Exile, calling for the impeachment of Lobsang Sangay. But nothing happens, because Lobsang Sangay is too powerful and the Central Tibetan Administration (CTA) doesn't give much consideration to people's voice, despite claiming to be democratic.  :(
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: SabS on March 30, 2019, 04:12:31 PM

They did! A group of Tibetans living in India, the US and Nepal, said to number around 70, protested at the Central Tibetan Administration (CTA), Dharamshala, from Mar 17 to 24 2018 to demand the resignation or ouster of President Lobsang Sangay. The protesters were reported to have submitted a petition to the Parliament in Exile, calling for the impeachment of Lobsang Sangay. But nothing happens, because Lobsang Sangay is too powerful and the Central Tibetan Administration (CTA) doesn't give much consideration to people's voice, despite claiming to be democratic.  :(

Wow! Does that mean that Lobsang Sangay is invincible? Why doesn't the Dalai Lama remove him from office and instate someone who cares about their people with impartiality to their differences such as religious practices or their Tibetan locality? Well, the fact is I would say that since the Tibetan leaders had been suppressing their people, no positive potential had risen up to be capable of this lead. Only recently, Tenpa Yarphel dared to speak up for harmony and that is simply amazing. Alas, he is in robes and not suitable as a political head. If more people are like Tenpa Yarphel, then Tibetans will be at greater harmony to forge ahead with a better future. However, even as he spoke, so many are already attacking him with threats and claims that are untrue. It really shows how ignorant these people are in the clutches of Lobsang Sangay, as any attack on Tenpa Yarphel is support for Lobsang Sangay's self-serving policies.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Alex on March 30, 2019, 05:11:58 PM

I wonder why the Tibetans did not throw Lobsang Sangay out from the parliament when Nechung manifested displease with him? It is obvious that Lobsang Sangay is doing a really bad job of running the CTA. If the Tibetans listen faithfully to what Nechung says, why are they not asking Lobsang Sangay to resign?

Since they listened to Nechung who speak ill of Dorje Shugden, they should listen to what he reacts toward Lobsang Sangay too. It is unfair for them to be selective and choose what they want to listen to and what they ignore.

Lobsang Sangay is also another shameless fella. How can he act like nothing happened after the State Oracle of Tibet manifested displease with him? He is destroying Tibetans in exile and Tibetans should have seen his tricks now. If they allow this kind of president to govern them, it means that they are ignorant or they are the same as him.

They did! A group of Tibetans living in India, the US and Nepal, said to number around 70, protested at the Central Tibetan Administration (CTA), Dharamshala, from Mar 17 to 24 2018 to demand the resignation or ouster of President Lobsang Sangay. The protesters were reported to have submitted a petition to the Parliament in Exile, calling for the impeachment of Lobsang Sangay. But nothing happens, because Lobsang Sangay is too powerful and the Central Tibetan Administration (CTA) doesn't give much consideration to people's voice, despite claiming to be democratic.  :(

That is even worst. The Tibetan government claims to be a democratic body but it is totally not true. They never listen to their people and they do what they want regardless of what their people want. Lobsang Sangay is a very good example of the undemocratic Tibetan government.

Lobsang Sangay has been involved in cases of sexual abuse as well as scandals. If any political leader around that world that is involved in those kind of cases or scandals, they will have to step down from their position because it is not a good example for people.

However, it is a different case with Lobsang Sangay. He still remains in his position and no apology from him or whatsoever. He is not affected at all and carried on with his obnoxious ways even if the public had requested him to step down. Hence, the Tibetan government is no democratic and they are actually running the government with dictatorship.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Rowntree on April 01, 2019, 06:07:48 AM
It is not because Lobsang Sangay is too powerful, it is because 70 people cannot do much. Also, the protestors focus more on making noise but there lacked a plan on how to achieve the goal to impeach Sangay. If they are really serious about it, they have many channels they can go to. The reality is, Lobsang Sangay is unimportant, so no one is interested in impeaching him either.

They did! A group of Tibetans living in India, the US and Nepal, said to number around 70, protested at the Central Tibetan Administration (CTA), Dharamshala, from Mar 17 to 24 2018 to demand the resignation or ouster of President Lobsang Sangay. The protesters were reported to have submitted a petition to the Parliament in Exile, calling for the impeachment of Lobsang Sangay. But nothing happens, because Lobsang Sangay is too powerful and the Central Tibetan Administration (CTA) doesn't give much consideration to people's voice, despite claiming to be democratic.  :(
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: daka on April 01, 2019, 10:03:04 AM
What you said could be true. Tibetans overall are not interested in politics. For generations, they are so used to live under the Dalai Lama's leadership. They have no idea about politics, no idea about human rights and even no idea about how to live without the Dalai Lama. Since Lobsang Sangay belongs to CTA, and the Dalai Lama supports CTA, I think people will just think, "forget about it, just follow the Dalai Lama". I believe this is the overall mindsets. therefore until now, the Tibetans are still content with the CTA's fake democracy. 
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Alex on April 02, 2019, 02:32:29 PM
What you said could be true. Tibetans overall are not interested in politics. For generations, they are so used to live under the Dalai Lama's leadership. They have no idea about politics, no idea about human rights and even no idea about how to live without the Dalai Lama. Since Lobsang Sangay belongs to CTA, and the Dalai Lama supports CTA, I think people will just think, "forget about it, just follow the Dalai Lama". I believe this is the overall mindsets. therefore until now, the Tibetans are still content with the CTA's fake democracy.

Tibetans in exile are too sheltered and they do not know anything outside of Tibet prior to 1959. His Holiness the Dalai Lama is their god-king and they will follow him no matter what he said. This kind of mindset existed several hundreds of years already since the 5th Dalai Lama's time. Anyone who goes against the Dalai Lama will not have a good ending. Hence, no one dares to oppose His Holiness or the government.

When they came to India in 1959, they bring the exact same mentality with them. Those who refuse to see the world outside of Tibet will be stuck with that kind of attitude while those who are willing to step out of their comfort zone will be able to see a whole new world. That is why, those Tibetans who went overseas, will be more successful and will be able to see the true colors of their government.

Just look at the Tibetans who self-immolate to fight for the freedom of their country. There is no way for them to get back their country now and all they manage to achieve by burning themselves to death is more sympathy and money for CTA. There is also the main reason why CTA encourages their people to self-immolate. Tibetans who are exposed and can think logically will never do such harmful act to themselves because it is a waste of precious human lives. That is why Tibetans need to leave their government and join India or go back to Tibet.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Drolma on April 04, 2019, 03:51:26 AM
The CTA is not interested in preserving Buddhism or any lineage, of course they will not protect Kagyu lineage. Look at how they have caused the Gelug lineage to break into two fractions. They care more about the money than anything else.

The CTA is actually using Buddhism to make money. They promote themselves as the protector of ancient Buddhist culture but they have not done much towards the preservation of Buddhism. All they do is they 'export' the monks to perform Buddhist chanting on the stage and make sand Mandalas to entertain people. They don't allocate much budget to help the Tibetan Buddhist monasteries in India and Nepal. Nobody knows how exactly they spend the money given by the sponsors.

If the CTA can gain something from the 2 Karmapas issue, they sure will get involved without anyone asking for their help. But since the 2 Karmapas issue don't bring benefit to them and it will give them more work, they would rather keep quiet. This is how the CTA destroys their precious culture and Buddhism.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Rowntree on April 05, 2019, 01:54:36 PM
We should not forget that the 14th Sharmapa went to His Holiness the Dalai Lama to ask him to withdraw his acknowledgement of the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley recognised by Tai Situ. The Dalai Lama said he couldn't withdraw. There had never been a tradition where the Dalai Lama is involved with the recognition of the Karmapa and definitely not by Tai Situ. It has always been the Sharmapa recognising the Karmapa and vice versa.

If the Dalai Lama didn't involve in it, none of this confusion will arise. Please listen to what the Sharmapa has to say. Real practitioner speaks the truth fearlessly. This is a very admirable quality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHBAsBi9hys (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHBAsBi9hys)
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Alex on April 05, 2019, 07:25:24 PM
We should not forget that the 14th Sharmapa went to His Holiness the Dalai Lama to ask him to withdraw his acknowledgement of the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley recognised by Tai Situ. The Dalai Lama said he couldn't withdraw. There had never been a tradition where the Dalai Lama is involved with the recognition of the Karmapa and definitely not by Tai Situ. It has always been the Sharmapa recognising the Karmapa and vice versa.

If the Dalai Lama didn't involve in it, none of this confusion will arise. Please listen to what the Sharmapa has to say. Real practitioner speaks the truth fearlessly. This is a very admirable quality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHBAsBi9hys (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHBAsBi9hys)

Yes! Not many high lamas out there is as brave as the Sharmapa. He told His Holiness directly that he is wrong and he should retract his endorsement of Karmapa Ogyen Trinley. Sharmapa is right because His Holiness the Dalai Lama does not have the authority to recognize a Karma Kagyu high lama. There are no such examples before.

They exploited His Holiness's fame and endorsed Ogyen Trinley and created the 2 Karmapa situation as Sharmapa also has chosen his candidate of the Karmapa. According to the lineage, Sharmapa is the one who has the authority to recognize the next Karmapa and be his regent.

Now that Sharmapa is back again, we will know that Karmapa Thaye Dorje is the good and authentic Karmapa. With the recent event of Karmapa Thaye Dorje ignoring the CTA and His Holiness, we can make a smart guest that Dorje Shugden is preparing h
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: daka on April 06, 2019, 05:59:34 PM
We should not forget that the 14th Sharmapa went to His Holiness the Dalai Lama to ask him to withdraw his acknowledgement of the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley recognised by Tai Situ. The Dalai Lama said he couldn't withdraw. There had never been a tradition where the Dalai Lama is involved with the recognition of the Karmapa and definitely not by Tai Situ. It has always been the Sharmapa recognising the Karmapa and vice versa.

If the Dalai Lama didn't involve in it, none of this confusion will arise. Please listen to what the Sharmapa has to say. Real practitioner speaks the truth fearlessly. This is a very admirable quality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHBAsBi9hys (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHBAsBi9hys)


The reason behind the Dalai Lama's involvement in this Karmapa issue always puzzles me. The Karma Kagyu's reincarnation tradition actually started much earlier than the Gelugs, it has never been an issue even long before the era of the 1st Dalai Lama. In fact, the Dalai Lamas never and shouldn't have involved in the recognition of any of the Karmapa. The tradition of the recognition of  the Karmapa has long been set, ie before each Karmapa passes away, he will leave behind a letter foretelling the exact circumstances of his next rebirth. The key is the letter.

Even if for the case of the recognition of the 17th Karmapa, that whereabouts of the particular letter seems to be the key problem, it still has nothing to do with the Dalai Lama. And even if the Karma Kagyu really sought help from the Dalai Lama, what the Dalai Lama should do is still related to the letter, He could have used his clairvoyance to help in locating the letter, but not directly jumped into the recognition of the Karmapa itself. Things could have been much easy and simple and less political. Why the Dalai Lama and the CTA didn't do that but chose to do it the wrong way instead, and did it in such a rush? It's all very suspicious.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Alex on April 07, 2019, 04:58:15 AM
We should not forget that the 14th Sharmapa went to His Holiness the Dalai Lama to ask him to withdraw his acknowledgement of the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley recognised by Tai Situ. The Dalai Lama said he couldn't withdraw. There had never been a tradition where the Dalai Lama is involved with the recognition of the Karmapa and definitely not by Tai Situ. It has always been the Sharmapa recognising the Karmapa and vice versa.

If the Dalai Lama didn't involve in it, none of this confusion will arise. Please listen to what the Sharmapa has to say. Real practitioner speaks the truth fearlessly. This is a very admirable quality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHBAsBi9hys (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHBAsBi9hys)


The reason behind the Dalai Lama's involvement in this Karmapa issue always puzzles me. The Karma Kagyu's reincarnation tradition actually started much earlier than the Gelugs, it has never been an issue even long before the era of the 1st Dalai Lama. In fact, the Dalai Lamas never and shouldn't have involved in the recognition of any of the Karmapa. The tradition of the recognition of  the Karmapa has long been set, ie before each Karmapa passes away, he will leave behind a letter foretelling the exact circumstances of his next rebirth. The key is the letter.

Even if for the case of the recognition of the 17th Karmapa, that whereabouts of the particular letter seems to be the key problem, it still has nothing to do with the Dalai Lama. And even if the Karma Kagyu really sought help from the Dalai Lama, what the Dalai Lama should do is still related to the letter, He could have used his clairvoyance to help in locating the letter, but not directly jumped into the recognition of the Karmapa itself. Things could have been much easy and simple and less political. Why the Dalai Lama and the CTA didn't do that but chose to do it the wrong way instead, and did it in such a rush? It's all very suspicious.

His Holiness the Dalai Lama should not have gotten himself involved in the recognition of the Karmapa because he is from the Gelug sect and not Karma Kagyu sect. His Holiness the Dalai Lama, with all due respect, should not have recognized the Karmapa and he does not have the authority to do that in the first place.

The Dalai Lama has never been involved in the matters of recognizing the Karmapa ever and this is the first time a Dalai Lama recognize a Karmapa. In history, it was Sharmapa who will be the one responsible and with authority to recognize the next Karmapa. It has been like this for hundreds of years and it is the tradition of the Karma Kagy lineage.

CTA used Dalai Lama's fame to recognize another Karmapa causing a rift in the Karma Kagyu sect. The followers are torn between 2 Karmapas and it is very detrimental to the unity of the sect. Hence, CTA did it on purpose to split the Karma Kagyu sect followers so that it is easier to control them.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Rowntree on April 08, 2019, 12:02:10 AM
Something funny to share with everyone.

The Gaden Phodrang (now known as Central Tibetan Administration) banned the reincarnations (recognition) of the Shamarpa since the 10th Shamarpa, Mipam Chödrup Gyamtso (1742–1793). The 10th Shamarpa was the stepbrother of the 6th Panchen Lama, Lobsang Palden Yeshe (1738–1780). There was a dispute over his claim to his stepbrother's material inheritance led to an armed conflict in which the Shamarpa conspired with the Nepalese Gurkha army in 1788.

Together with other disputes between the Gelug and Kagyu schools, the Shamarpa had to live in exile from Tibet. In addition, a legal ban was imposed by the Gaden Phodrang on further Shamarpa incarnations. This ban remained in place until after the 14th Dalai Lama lost power in Tibet during the 1950s. Just like Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen, the Tibetan government banned his recognition and confiscated all his properties as he was seen as a threat to the Dalai Lama's role. It is a very common practice for the Tibetan government to ban a reincarnation when they feel threatened. There is no democracy whatsoever even until today. 

It was later revealed that the Karmapa had recognized reincarnations of the Shamarpa secretly during the intervening period although there was a ban. The 16th Karmapa was a good friend of the 3rd Trijang Rinpoche and also friendly with the 14th Dalai Lama. Rumours had it that the 16th Karmapa spoke to the 14th Dalai Lama and had the ban lifted for the Sharmapa's recognition, which the Dalai Lama agreed.

The funny thing was, after the ban was lifted and the Sharmapa was again recognised, the 14th Sharma Rinpoche immediately caused trouble for the Dalai Lama / CTA! The Sharmapa took the controversial case of the 17th Karmapa to the Dalai Lama and requested him to withdraw his recognition of the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley (a candidate recognised by Tai Situ), creating troubles for the Dalai Lama / CTA just like how the 10th Sharmapa did. The Dalai Lama must really regret to have lifted the ban ;D ;D ;D

The 14th Shamar Rinpoche, Tai Situ Rinpoche, Jamgon Kongtrul Rinpoche, and Goshir Gyaltsab Rinpoche agreed to form a council of regents to take joint responsibility for the spiritual affairs of the Karma Kagyu lineage, alternating as the regent for the Karmapa every three years, after the death of the 16th Karmapa. This regency was, however, dissolved in 1984 having only functioned for three years after the 16th Karmapa's death due to a breach of agreement among them.

Traditionally, the Karmapa has always been the one who recognises the Shamar Rinpoche and vice versa, just like how the Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama recognises each other. This has been the tradition for the lineage for decades. However, Tai Situ decided to recognise his own Karmapa. Hence the split of the regency and the Karmapa controversy.

The Sharmapa is seen as a trouble maker for the Dalai Lama and CTA because he dare to speak the truth and stand for what is right. He respected the Dalai Lama but he is not afraid to speak his mind politely. Now that the 15th Sharmapa is born under the Karmapa Thaye Dorje (the candidate recognised by the 14th Sharma Rinpoche) family and the Karmapa Thaye Dorje ignored the Dalai Lama in the recent Kagyu Monlam event in Bodhgaya, we shall see the revival of the Karma Kagyu power against the Dalai Lama's (aka Ganden Phodrang aka CTA) rule.

No matter how much the eight world dharma seems to be in control, the truth (the dharma) will always prevail over them. This is another sign of the falling of CTA for sure!
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: daka on April 11, 2019, 05:32:53 AM
Thanks for posting this story. I remember someone posted this a few years ago, I couldn't find the post. Gaden Phodrang has never really had a good relationship with the Karma Kagyu. To ban the reincarnation of the 2nd highest lama of Karma Kagyu for almost 2 centuries definitely is not a friendly gesture Gaden Phodrang has shown show to Karma Kagyu.

If the relationship between Gaden Phodrang and the Karma Kagyu has been quite tense for so many years, how could we believe whatever action or decision that Gaden Phodrang (now CTA) made in relation to Karma Kagyu is with good intention?

Shamarpa and Karmapa are supposed to recognize each other's reincarnation. Putting the Shamarpa in exile and banning his reincarnation is like to amputate one of Karma Kagyu's legs. If someone amputated your left leg with no obvious valid reason before, are you going to trust him with your right leg? Letting the CTA recognized the Karmapa is just like that. Not even to mention the Gaden Phodrang has no right to be involved with the recognition of the Karmapa, even if it does, the process of the recognition of the 17th Karmapa is so rush, so unprofessional and without going thorough examination and proper procedure. Make it looks more like a power fight. I am surprised not many really fight hard to clarify this.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: SabS on April 11, 2019, 11:14:32 AM
Wow! Thank you, Rowntree, for sharing the history of Ganden Podrang and the 10th Sharmapa. It is interesting how money could enter into the upper echelon of Buddhist Leaders. Guess, greed can still be a very strong pulling factor no matter what position you may be. It would seem that if the Dalai Lama should pass, then the next highest would be the Karmapa since the Panchen Lama is located in China. So the Karmapa is a very crucial piece of chess or pawn to the interested party, especially CTA. No wonder CTA dare not announce who the real Karmapa is. Don't want to cut their lifeline in case one or the other Karmapa does not work out.  8)
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Drolma on April 12, 2019, 08:14:44 PM
The CTA and Mr. Lobsang Sangay are definitely very delusional and refuse to see the truth. The Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorjee is not coming back, full stop! Who will be so stupid to go back to India to be controlled and under the surveillance for 24 hours, 7 days a week? The 17th Karmapa has already expressed his unhappiness towards the CTA, how he was not allowed to learn from many Kagyu masters and to spread Dharma. He is not that stupid to go back to them.

Not only the CTA makes the lives of the Tibetans miserable, but they are also making the lives of the lamas miserable and depressing. This is how capable the CTA is. They are destructive and bring no benefit to anyone. Thus, to ask if the CTA can help to preserve the precious Karma Kagyu lineage? The answer is no.

The CTA is only after their own benefits, they don't care about the Tibetans, the preservation of the precious Tibetan Buddhism or anyone. This has been their culture even before they went into exile. The Dalai Lama wishes very much to change the political culture and mentality but he has failed. The Tibetan leadership still wants to control the Tibetans like in the old days, treating them and exploiting them like slaves.
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http://www.tibetanjournal.com/karmapa-will-return-back-india-assures-president-sangay/ (http://www.tibetanjournal.com/karmapa-will-return-back-india-assures-president-sangay/)

Karmapa Will Return Back to India Assures President Sangay

Amid the protracted issue over the return of His Holiness the 17th Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorjee to India after he left the country in 2017, the President of Central Tibetan Administration, Dr. Lobsang Sangay has assured of his return. The Karmapa has been based in the United States over the past more than one year besides his short visits to Europe and Canada.

Since the Karmapa left India since May 2017, he has been on an extended stay predominantly in the United States due to medical reasons. Later in the year 2018, the Karmapa announced that he has acquired the citizenship of Commonwealth of Dominica and received a passport of the same. Although he had left India on the Identity Certificate (IC), a travel document issued by the government of India for Tibetan refugees, the passport of Commonwealth of Dominica was sought to ease the complications associated with travelling on the travel document.

There has been rising controversy with regard to the return of the Tibetan spiritual guru to India. While the Karmapa reported of problems in receiving an official nod from the government of India for his return, the officials of the External Affairs ministry said that the Karmapa is welcome to India but he has not applied for a visa for the same.

President Sangay in a recent conversation with the Times of India, he acknowledged that Karmapa taking the citizenship of Dominican Republic is a personal choice and assured that he will return to India.

“Taking citizenship of a country is a matter of a personal choice. Many people are taking the same in various parts of the world. But we trust that his holiness Karmapa will return back.” said Dr. Sangay according to TOI adding that his government believes that move of Karmapa is not going to dent the issue of Tibet and struggle by Tibetans.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Alex on April 12, 2019, 09:33:04 PM
Thank you, Rowntree for sharing the interesting information regarding Sharma Rinpoche. It seems like anyone afraid to speak the truth and not intimidated by His Holiness's power will eventually get into trouble with the CTA. CTA has been ruling over Tibet with their modus operandi of eliminating whoever that is a possible threat to their power. Many high lamas who are innocent were prosecuted and accused of crimes that they did not do.

This modus operandi of theirs has been going on for hundreds of years from the 5th Dalai Lama's time.  One famous example will be the murder of Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen who was believed to be on par, if not superior to the 5th Dalai Lama in terms of fame and power. Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen was a close dharma brother of the 5th Dalai Lama, and they grew up together. Both of them were erudite masters, and many came to visit them to make offerings but Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen has more visitors than the 5th Dalai Lama.

That time, the 5th Dalai Lama had just set up his government which is Gaden Podrang. The 5th Dalai Lama's attendants were weary of Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen's fame and power to surpass the 5th Dalai Lama. Hence, they wanted to get rid of him to eliminate the threat to the throne. Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen was murdered and all his possessions were confiscated. They even went to the extent of banning his incarnation line.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Tracy on April 17, 2019, 06:32:58 PM
The CTA will not help in preserving the Kagyu lineage, they don't even preserve the Gelug lineage, why would they preserve the Kagyu lineage? They have not done much to preserve the precious Tibetan culture. They have been busy creating conflicts in the Tibetan community in order to weaken the people's power so no one will question their failure as a government.

The CTA has to understand that they should not take a side in the Karmapa issue. They are the government for all Tibetans, they should stay neutral in this case. Unfortunately, they did not. They want to groom the Karmapa as the successor to the Dalai Lama so they can continue to use the spiritual head to control the Tibetans and sell Dharma to the world.

In addition to the two Karmapa issue, the other famous controversy the CTA has created is the Dorje Shugden ban. Again, the ban is imposed so that people are distracted from the real reason the Free Tibet movement has failed after 60 years. The CTA is hopeless as a government, they don't improve the life of the Tibetans, they are not capable of fulfilling their promise to the Tibetans and they only bring sufferings to them.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Tenzin K on April 17, 2019, 09:00:09 PM
It’s really unjustified for Dalai Lama to interference in the Karma Kagyu tradition deceived the sect. This is something the Dalai Lama would have known and could have chosen to honor. There is no tradition in Tibetan Buddhism that allows the Dalai Lama to spiritually override the Shamarpa or indeed any teacher or any head of the other Tibetan Buddhist schools.

In this case, I can only see from the political view where Dalai Lama is purposely recognized one for power control. In each sect. Dalai Lama will place his own people for his control.  Unfortunately Ogyen Trinley Dorje unable to continue with the control from CTA and would rather leave India for a better choice in terms of spiritual practice.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Alex on April 17, 2019, 10:36:51 PM
It’s really unjustified for Dalai Lama to interference in the Karma Kagyu tradition deceived the sect. This is something the Dalai Lama would have known and could have chosen to honor. There is no tradition in Tibetan Buddhism that allows the Dalai Lama to spiritually override the Shamarpa or indeed any teacher or any head of the other Tibetan Buddhist schools.

In this case, I can only see from the political view where Dalai Lama is purposely recognized one for power control. In each sect. Dalai Lama will place his own people for his control.  Unfortunately Ogyen Trinley Dorje unable to continue with the control from CTA and would rather leave India for a better choice in terms of spiritual practice.

His Holiness the Dalai Lama is not even of his own sect, Gelug. Many people are unfamiliar with the system which leads to the public believing His Holiness is the head of all Tibetan Buddhism sects. This gives His Holiness the ability to interfere with other lineages such a Karma Kagyu. An example will be the recognition of the 17th Karmapa.

Traditionally, His Holiness has no say in the recognition of the 17th Karmapa because Karma Kagyus have their own leaders and they are not under His Holiness. However, due to ignorant and fame, the public accepts the Karmapa candidate that is chosen by His Holiness. This is how sneaky the Tibetan government is to exert control onto the other sects.

The result of having 2 Karmapa candidates is the splitting of Karma Kagyu sect with disharmony and conflicts. The only party that will be benefitted from this is the Tibetan government as they will be able to rule over them easily.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Tenzin K on April 18, 2019, 09:03:36 AM
Dalai Lama never in the Karma Kagyu tradition to choose any of the Karmapa or Sharmapa but breaking the tradition to do so. Since the Dalai Lama has already chosen his candidate why not go all the way to announce the real Karmapa. Let the people have a peace of mind and follow the real one all the way. Don’t let the fake one create heavier negative karma by leading the rest to the lower realm. Everyone respect Dalai Lama and his words now are very important and crucial to determine the faith of Karma Kagyu lineage now.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: PrajNa on April 18, 2019, 10:48:39 AM
The result of having 2 Karmapa candidates is the splitting of Karma Kagyu sect with disharmony and conflicts. The only party that will be benefitted from this is the Tibetan government as they will be able to rule over them easily.

This really is a disaster. Although the 2 Karmapas had a monumental meeting,  the conundrum is still not resolved. The debate over who will hold the unofficial seat-in-exile at Rumtek Monastery, in Sikkim, India, persists. Thanks to the Tibetan leadership in Dharamsala, people are more confused now because it seems that after Karmapa Ogyen Trinley ran away, the Tibetan leadership tries to court Karmapa Thaye Dorje now. Who really is the real Karmapa? Why did Dharamsala switch side?  :-\
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Tenzin K on April 19, 2019, 04:08:50 PM
Obviously, we can’t have the fake Karmapa to lead the people in the wrong way. Since the Tibetan leadership is able to recognize another Karmapa they should also announce the fake one to prevent any confusion. The Tibetan leadership has recognized their own leaders in different sect so should be able to identify the fake Karmapa.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Tenzin K on April 19, 2019, 04:23:28 PM
It’s strange how CTA can come into the picture of recognizing another Karmapa. Never in their tradition that the Karmapa recognize in such and under what authority that CTA recognizes one is correct? Can CTA be held responsible if the one they recognize is not the real one? And by saying so how could CTA able to recognize? Can a secular body recognize the spiritual side? Even if it's recognized by the Dalai Lama it also violates the tradition of recognition by the lineage sect themselves.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Rowntree on April 19, 2019, 05:30:59 PM
Perhaps this is the post you are referring to http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/cta-and-the-kagyus/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/cta-and-the-kagyus/) I find this paragraph below particularly interesting. Among the four main traditions of Tibetan Buddhism, Kagyu is the only one that had ruled part of Tibet within the Tibetan history. I believe they will be happy to resume to rule in no time since the 15th Sharma Rinpoche and 17th Karmapa Thaye Dorje are under one roof now!

In retaliation, the Kagyus are rumoured to have procured the Fifth Dalai Lama’s hair and placed it under the steps at the front entrance of Tsurphu Monastery. This was done deliberately so that all who entered the monastery would have to symbolically step over the Dalai Lama, which was considered a grave insult. This incident is one of many that tells of the historic enmity between the Karma Kagyus and the Fifth Dalai Lama and his government. It is rumoured that the Fifth Dalai Lama’s hair is still under the Tsurphu Monastery steps. Even Geshe Sopa had heard of it and he states in his book that he never set foot in that monastery because he was afraid that the rumour might turn out to be true.


Thanks for posting this story. I remember someone posted this a few years ago, I couldn't find the post. Gaden Phodrang has never really had a good relationship with the Karma Kagyu. To ban the reincarnation of the 2nd highest lama of Karma Kagyu for almost 2 centuries definitely is not a friendly gesture Gaden Phodrang has shown show to Karma Kagyu.

If the relationship between Gaden Phodrang and the Karma Kagyu has been quite tense for so many years, how could we believe whatever action or decision that Gaden Phodrang (now CTA) made in relation to Karma Kagyu is with good intention?

Shamarpa and Karmapa are supposed to recognize each other's reincarnation. Putting the Shamarpa in exile and banning his reincarnation is like to amputate one of Karma Kagyu's legs. If someone amputated your left leg with no obvious valid reason before, are you going to trust him with your right leg? Letting the CTA recognized the Karmapa is just like that. Not even to mention the Gaden Phodrang has no right to be involved with the recognition of the Karmapa, even if it does, the process of the recognition of the 17th Karmapa is so rush, so unprofessional and without going thorough examination and proper procedure. Make it looks more like a power fight. I am surprised not many really fight hard to clarify this.
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: Rowntree on April 19, 2019, 06:01:50 PM
You are right. Money is money at the end of the day. "Don't make enemy with money" ~ the CTA's slogan for years! This is precisely why they did not announce who is the wrong Karmapa. Better sit on the fence and observe who can bring them more money! The CTA needs money and support as the Dalai Lama is getting older and this is their grand plan to secure their own interest! Welcome to Shangrila!

Wow! Thank you, Rowntree, for sharing the history of Ganden Podrang and the 10th Sharmapa. It is interesting how money could enter into the upper echelon of Buddhist Leaders. Guess, greed can still be a very strong pulling factor no matter what position you may be. It would seem that if the Dalai Lama should pass, then the next highest would be the Karmapa since the Panchen Lama is located in China. So the Karmapa is a very crucial piece of chess or pawn to the interested party, especially CTA. No wonder CTA dare not announce who the real Karmapa is. Don't want to cut their lifeline in case one or the other Karmapa does not work out.  8)
Title: Re: The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?
Post by: PrajNa on April 23, 2019, 11:29:13 PM
Obviously, we can’t have the fake Karmapa to lead the people in the wrong way. Since the Tibetan leadership is able to recognize another Karmapa they should also announce the fake one to prevent any confusion. The Tibetan leadership has recognized their own leaders in different sect so should be able to identify the fake Karmapa.

Agree with you Tenzin K. They really should announce which Karmapa is fake, and which is real. Tibetans are confused after the 2 Karmapas met.