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About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rowntree on December 28, 2018, 06:02:25 PM
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'Karmapa' Ogyen Trinley no longer recognised by Indian govt as 17th Karmapa. The Indian government is not happy he did not show respect to India for all the years he took refuge in India. He simply renounced his Indian protectorate papers and took a Dominican Republic passport. He could have had the courtesy to let Indian government know beforehand and thank them.
Dorje no longer recognised by Indian govt as 17th Karmapa
Indrani Bagchi | TNN | Dec 28, 2018, 04.00 AM IST
NEW DELHI: The already strained ties between Karmapa Ugyen Trinley Dorje and the Indian government seems to have further deteriorated with the government making it clear that it does not recognise him as the legitimate Buddhist religious leader of the influential karma kagyu sect.
The sharp put down, articulated by well-placed sourc status and the status and future of the Karmapa uncertain in India and seems to indicate that India’s impatience with his long absence from India has turned into a colder indifference to the leader’s claim to his “traditional” seat of the Rumtek monastery.
Given its apparent disenchantment with the Karmapa, the government is no longer seeing his decision to acquire a Domincan passport as a problem and is willing to give him a visa. This could mean that India will not accord much importance to the status of his identity certificate, the document commonly issued to Tibetan refugees, which also facilitates travel abroad.
There are legal and political aspects to the development. Since there are competing claims to the Rumtek monstery that are sub judice, India cannot pronounce on the Karmapa’s claim. However, politically, keeping the Karmapa in its zone of influence and supporting his presence here makes India a “guardian” of a religious leader seen to rank next to the Dalai Lama in importance.
The government’s stand is at odds with the Dalai Lama, who has recognised Dorje as the legitimate Karmapa. In recent years, the Indian government had also shed its suspicions about Karmapa’s escape from China along with his older sister and a few followers. But for more than a year after Karmapa went to the US, he has avoided returning and has in fact complained that he finds restrictions on his travel irksome.
The rival claimant to the post, Thaye Dorje, who had been placed as a Karmapa claimant by Shamar Rimpoche, recently renounced monkhood and got married, diluting his claim since the title calls for celibacy.
The two claimants had riven the Karma Kagyu sect, though according to reports, an attempt was made to bridge the divide with Ugyen Trinley Dorje and Trinley Thaye Dorje meeting at a place on the France-Switzerland border in October.
Ugyen Trinley Dorje’s situation became tenuous after he took a passport from the commonwealth of Dominica in the Caribbean. Sources said Dorje’s acquiring of a foreign passport automatically makes the Tibetan identity certificate (IC) invalid. This means he would need a visa to enter India.
The Indian government, according to sources, have conveyed to the Karmapa willingness to issue him a visa. “But he has not approached any Indian mission for a visa,” they said.
Indian security agencies have been suspicious of him for years, branding him a Chinese spy, particularly as China so readily recognised him. In 2016, the Modi government however, eased travel restrictions for him and he was allowed to travel overseas.
This throws into confusion not only the future of the Karma Kagyu sect of which Dorje is believed to be the head, but would have implications for India-China and India-Tibet relations in the longer term.
[url]http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/67279793.cms?[/url] ([url]http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/67279793.cms?[/url])
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This certainly comes as a piece of shocking news because awhile ago the Tibetan leadership was hoping to be able to get Karmapa on their side to replace His Holiness the Dalai Lama when he no longer around. The Tibetan leadership needs someone that has almost the same religious authority over the Tibetans and Karmapa is actually the next best option that they can get. That is why they imposed alot of restrictions on the young Karmapa when he was in India.
Karmapa was pretty unhappy with what they CTA is doing and chose to escape to a foreign country and recently he decided to take up the passport from the Dominican Republic and that gave him even more freedom because he won't have to rely on the travel pass that was given to him by the Indian government which was controlled by the Tibetan leadership. He stayed overseas for an extended period of time and now he decided to no return to India
Karmapa has been complaining about not getting his education and his freedom is restricted. CTA certainly overdid it with their controlling and now they lose an important ally to have in their future. I am glad that the lineage continues to stay pure away from the control of CTA because their involvement had proven to be destructive.
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The government’s stand is at odds with the Dalai Lama, who has recognized Dorje as the legitimate Karmapa.
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The Indian Gov't is now publicly stating that the 14th Dalai Lama was WRONG in officially recognizing Dorje as the 17th Karmapa.
This is a direct slap in his face by the Indian Gov't.
The Indian Gov't is now turning their back on the Dalai Lama and his CTA.
This could spell the political end in India of both the Dalai Lama and his CTA.
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For everyone's convenience, please find attached the original article
'Karmapa' Ogyen Trinley no longer recognised by Indian govt as 17th Karmapa. The Indian government is not happy he did not show respect to India for all the years he took refuge in India. He simply renounced his Indian protectorate papers and took a Dominican Republic passport. He could have had the courtesy to let Indian government know beforehand and thank them.
Dorje no longer recognised by Indian govt as 17th Karmapa
Indrani Bagchi | TNN | Dec 28, 2018, 04.00 AM IST
NEW DELHI: The already strained ties between Karmapa Ugyen Trinley Dorje and the Indian government seems to have further deteriorated with the government making it clear that it does not recognise him as the legitimate Buddhist religious leader of the influential karma kagyu sect.
The sharp put down, articulated by well-placed sourc status and the status and future of the Karmapa uncertain in India and seems to indicate that India’s impatience with his long absence from India has turned into a colder indifference to the leader’s claim to his “traditional” seat of the Rumtek monastery.
Given its apparent disenchantment with the Karmapa, the government is no longer seeing his decision to acquire a Domincan passport as a problem and is willing to give him a visa. This could mean that India will not accord much importance to the status of his identity certificate, the document commonly issued to Tibetan refugees, which also facilitates travel abroad.
There are legal and political aspects to the development. Since there are competing claims to the Rumtek monstery that are sub judice, India cannot pronounce on the Karmapa’s claim. However, politically, keeping the Karmapa in its zone of influence and supporting his presence here makes India a “guardian” of a religious leader seen to rank next to the Dalai Lama in importance.
The government’s stand is at odds with the Dalai Lama, who has recognised Dorje as the legitimate Karmapa. In recent years, the Indian government had also shed its suspicions about Karmapa’s escape from China along with his older sister and a few followers. But for more than a year after Karmapa went to the US, he has avoided returning and has in fact complained that he finds restrictions on his travel irksome.
The rival claimant to the post, Thaye Dorje, who had been placed as a Karmapa claimant by Shamar Rimpoche, recently renounced monkhood and got married, diluting his claim since the title calls for celibacy.
The two claimants had riven the Karma Kagyu sect, though according to reports, an attempt was made to bridge the divide with Ugyen Trinley Dorje and Trinley Thaye Dorje meeting at a place on the France-Switzerland border in October.
Ugyen Trinley Dorje’s situation became tenuous after he took a passport from the commonwealth of Dominica in the Caribbean. Sources said Dorje’s acquiring of a foreign passport automatically makes the Tibetan identity certificate (IC) invalid. This means he would need a visa to enter India.
The Indian government, according to sources, have conveyed to the Karmapa willingness to issue him a visa. “But he has not approached any Indian mission for a visa,” they said.
Indian security agencies have been suspicious of him for years, branding him a Chinese spy, particularly as China so readily recognised him. In 2016, the Modi government however, eased travel restrictions for him and he was allowed to travel overseas.
This throws into confusion not only the future of the Karma Kagyu sect of which Dorje is believed to be the head, but would have implications for India-China and India-Tibet relations in the longer term.
[url]http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/67279793.cms?[/url] ([url]http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/67279793.cms?[/url])
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Wow! Now the Indian Government can do recognition as well. I can't but help thinking if the Indian government was to go this way, is it in collaboration with the Tibetan Leader. After all, it was inferred that Lobsang Sangay had wanted the Karmapa to replace the Dalai Lama as the next religious head. If this is so, then it is obvious that Lobsang Sangay just does not have the authority or clout with India as he thought he had. Haha, how does one go against an enlightened one who has clairvoyance??
Also, the Karmapa has great wealth associated with his seat and as such, will this Karmapa be able to gain access to it with India not recognizing his status? It can't be just getting slighted by Karmapa's failure to inform India of his getting the passport of Dominican Republic that they would not allow him back into India. It is obvious that the Karmapa's return to India will not be smooth in this near future. Such a shame that religious figures fall prey to politics!
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If the Indian Gov't is saying that the Dalai Lama's "Karmapa" is FAKE what does that really mean?
Are they now DECLARING that the Sharmpa's "Karmapa" is now the one and only true incarnation of the 16th Karmapa?
Does the Indian Gov't now "Officially" hand over the keys to Rumtek Monastery and the "Black Crown" to the other Karmapa?
Do they NEVER issue him a "Visitor's Visa" to visit India every again?
Does the Dalai Lama speak up against the actions of the Indian Gov't denying HIS choice for the 17th Karmapa?
What do the monks and followers of the Dalai Lama's "Karmapa" residing in India do with this bit of news?
The Indian Gov't is DECLARING that the Dalai Lama was totally wrong about his choice for the 17th Karmapa.
If the Dalai Lama can be WRONG about the 17th Karmapa can he also be wrong about Dorje Shugden???
???
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The Karmapa is ungrateful. How can he do this to his host of so many decades? No matter how unhappy he is, he shouldn't leave without a proper goodbye. He is also very disrespectful of the Dalai Lama who has kind of protected him from the Indian government due to the controversy. I am not surprised that the Indian government has made such a decision.
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The Karmapa is ungrateful. How can he do this to his host of so many decades? No matter how unhappy he is, he shouldn't leave without a proper goodbye. He is also very disrespectful of the Dalai Lama who has kind of protected him from the Indian government due to the controversy. I am not surprised that the Indian government has made such a decision.
The 17th Karmapa is a "living Buddha" and does not need to bow down to anyone.
This "Living Buddha" does not need the PERMISSION of either the Indian Gov't, Dalai Lama nor the CTA to do anything he now wants to.
He is now a CITIZEN of Dominica with all the rights and privileges that go with that.
None of us truly knows the sufferings this "Living Buddha" has and continues to go through yet some "mere mortals" have the nerve to judge him.
The 17th Karmapa is now free from all of the combined politics of the CTA, Dalai Lama, India and China.
Please pray for the long life of this brave 17th Karmapa.
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The Karmapa was already very unhappy with how the CTA was controlling him and he was not able to receive the education that he expected. All this while, he has been living in a Gelug monastery, not even a Kagyu monastery. Why does the CTA and the Dalai Lama want to keep Karmapa so close to them?
The CTA must have planned it long ago for Karmapa to take over the Dalai Lama's position when the Dalai Lama passed away. The CTA does not have the power over the Tibetans, only religious head like the Dalai Lama or Karmapa has the capability to command the people. Since the CTA does not have the Panchen Lama, the next best choice will be the Karmapa.
The Karmapa lineage has never been involved in politics before. It is not surprising that the current Karmapa feels so unhappy living under the control of the CTA and forced to get involved in the political scene. The Karmapa is rebellious in the sense that he ran away from the CTA, he had a meeting with the other Karmapa and he did not go back to India to participate in the conference as promised. This may also be a sign that the CTA is losing its power and will collapse soon.
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I don't think the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley cares if the Indian government recognises him or not. If he is after fame, power and money, he would not have run away from the CTA and met up with the Karmapa Thaye Dorje. Meeting up with the other Karmapa could mean that they have to decide who will be the throne holder.
From the video that was once released by the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley, he sounded very sincere when he said he does not want to get involved in politics and he only wants to spread Dharma. He was very unhappy in India because he could not get the education that he wants and do the things that he wants. He could be seen as ungrateful but I think he is compassionate in the sense that spreading Dharma is more important than the fame, power, and money the CTA can give him.
But anyway, the recognition from the Indian government is not important, they don't have the authority to do that. The Karmapa has no intention to go back to India and to be controlled by the CTA anymore. Now he has the freedom to do what he wants. The CTA has lost an influential high lama, their position is very shaky now.
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I don't think the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley cares if the Indian government recognises him or not. If he is after fame, power and money, he would not have run away from the CTA and met up with the Karmapa Thaye Dorje. Meeting up with the other Karmapa could mean that they have to decide who will be the throne holder.
From the video that was once released by the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley, he sounded very sincere when he said he does not want to get involved in politics and he only wants to spread Dharma. He was very unhappy in India because he could not get the education that he wants and do the things that he wants. He could be seen as ungrateful but I think he is compassionate in the sense that spreading Dharma is more important than the fame, power, and money the CTA can give him.
But anyway, the recognition from the Indian government is not important, they don't have the authority to do that. The Karmapa has no intention to go back to India and to be controlled by the CTA anymore. Now he has the freedom to do what he wants. The CTA has lost an influential high lama, their position is very shaky now.
I agree with you Tracy. Anyone who wants to have fame, money and power can easily get from the Tibetan leadership. All they need to do is to give them any kind of benefits and the best kind will be monetary benefits. Once you get close to the Tibetan leadership and take 1 picture with His Holiness the Dalai Lama, you will be famous in no time.
Look at all those high lamas that that close to His Holiness the Dalai Lama like Sogyal Lakar the sexual offender. His Holiness the Dalai Lama's influence is that great that even after they found out that he is actually doing all those nasty things to his students, he is able to escape all the charges and went into hiding. If Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje is a monk who loves fame and money, he would have gone along with CTA's plans.
It was rumoured that CTA wanted to push him to be the successor of the Dalai Lama. I guess they went overboard with their control on the Karmapa because they were so afraid to lose him as he is their best asset for the post-Dalai Lama era. I guess their plan now backfired.
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India, really did it this time, without worrying about the sentiments of The Dalai Lama and CTA.
CTA and the Dalai Lama had been grooming the 17th Karmapa Ogyen Trinley, for the longest time, so now who will they groom to be the leader of the Tibetans, in the absence of the Dalai Lama.
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I agree with you Tracy. Anyone who wants to have fame, money and power can easily get from the Tibetan leadership. All they need to do is to give them any kind of benefits and the best kind will be monetary benefits. Once you get close to the Tibetan leadership and take 1 picture with His Holiness the Dalai Lama, you will be famous in no time.
Look at all those high lamas that that close to His Holiness the Dalai Lama like Sogyal Lakar the sexual offender. His Holiness the Dalai Lama's influence is that great that even after they found out that he is actually doing all those nasty things to his students, he is able to escape all the charges and went into hiding. If Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje is a monk who loves fame and money, he would have gone along with CTA's plans.
It was rumoured that CTA wanted to push him to be the successor of the Dalai Lama. I guess they went overboard with their control on the Karmapa because they were so afraid to lose him as he is their best asset for the post-Dalai Lama era. I guess their plan now backfired.
It is very clear that the CTA wanted the Karmapa to be the successor of the Dalai Lama since they don't have other high lamas who are as influential as the Karmapa. Historically, the Tibetan leadership had relied on the high lama to control the people, they don't have the capability to command or rule, this is one of the reasons why they lost their country. In the old Tibet, they use the commoners as slaves to make money for them; in the modern day, they make sure the Tibetans remain as refugees so they can make money out of it.
It was kind of shocking when the Karmapa released a video expressing his disappointment and frustration at his situation in India. He was under strict control of the CTA, his attendants are not taking care of his welfare. For example, the offerings given to him, he did not know where they end up. It could mean that he knew nothing about the money when he was involved in the money scandal a few years back.
His wish to spread Dharma is greater than living comfortably in Dharamsala and be the puppet of the CTA. His decision to obtain a Dominican passport and meet up with the other Karmapa is a big slap to the CTA. To preserve his lineage is his utmost objective, he will not sacrifice that for money, power or fame.
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His Holiness the Dalai Lama is current at a ripe old age and it will not be long until His Holiness decided to enter into clear light. Many high lamas pass away into the clear light around this age and CTA certainly knows about it and started to prepare themselves for the post-Dalai Lama era.
His Holiness the Dalai Lama has been the most powerful and influential tool for CTA to do control the Tibetans and also influence the world to fulfill their selfish needs. They know very well that the way to control the Tibetans is through their lama.
That is why they have selected Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje to be the successor of the Dalai Lama which is totally absurd and illogical. In history, no Karmapa has been the successor to the Dalai Lama. The regents of Tibet will come into power until His Holiness’s return. It is obvious that CTA is desperate for power and they will use whatever evil methods to reach their goal and that includes twisting the system in Tibetan Buddhism and forcing a Karmapa to be the successor of the Dalai Lama.
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I think the CTA and the Indian government have never expected the Karmapa to escape from them by getting a Dominican passport. The CTA has planned it long ago to make the Karmapa the successor of the Dalai Lama once the Dalai Lama enters into the clear light. However, it is never the Karmapa's wish to be involved in politics, he is brave to run away from the CTA.
If the Indian government does not recognise the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley anymore, what does it imply? Does it mean now they recognise the Karmapa Thaye Dorje as the real Karmapa? Does it mean the Karmapa Thaye Dorje will be the official throne holder and he will be allowed to go back to Rumtek Monastery? If that is the case, it is actually quite humiliating to the CTA because the Indian government suddenly becomes the authority to recognise a reincarnate lama.
The CTA has not issued any statement on this matter perhaps it is too embarrassing for them to talk about it because their Karmapa has run away! If they still recognise the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley as the real Karmapa, they are going against the Indian government. If they don't recognise him as the real Karmapa, they will lose their credibility. The CTA is stuck now.
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Karmapa Ogyen Trinley is the Karmapa that Tibetan leadership recognizes. However, he ran away from them and refuses to come back to India. Recently, relationship scandals about him are being exposed by a Taiwanese girl and there is no official statement released by the Karmapa regarding it.
Then, the Tibetan leadership showed up at the Kagyu Monlam that was preceded by the Karmapa Thaye Dorje who is recognized by Sharmapa. Are they trying to get close to that Karmapa now?
Who is the real Karmapa now? The Tibetan leadership had tried to get close to both Karmapa while they only recognize Karmapa Ogyen Trinley to be the real Karmapa. This is very confusing for followers of Kagyu lineage. The Tibetan leadership needs to let the world know who is the real Karmapa and stop the confusion.
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I think the CTA and the Indian government have never expected the Karmapa to escape from them by getting a Dominican passport. The CTA has planned it long ago to make the Karmapa the successor of the Dalai Lama once the Dalai Lama enters into the clear light. However, it is never the Karmapa's wish to be involved in politics, he is brave to run away from the CTA.
If the Indian government does not recognise the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley anymore, what does it imply? Does it mean now they recognise the Karmapa Thaye Dorje as the real Karmapa? Does it mean the Karmapa Thaye Dorje will be the official throne holder and he will be allowed to go back to Rumtek Monastery? If that is the case, it is actually quite humiliating to the CTA because the Indian government suddenly becomes the authority to recognise a reincarnate lama.
The CTA has not issued any statement on this matter perhaps it is too embarrassing for them to talk about it because their Karmapa has run away! If they still recognise the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley as the real Karmapa, they are going against the Indian government. If they don't recognise him as the real Karmapa, they will lose their credibility. The CTA is stuck now.
This is probably the reason why the CTA is not saying anything about the Karmapa after he has run away and the sex scandal he is involved in. If the CTA goes along with the Indian government, they are telling people not to trust them anymore because they can be wrong. If the CTA still recognises Karmapa Ogyen Trinley, they will be seen as going against the Indian government. Either way, the CTA will be put in a awkward position.
Now CTA has to suffer from their misbehaviour. For the longest time, they do things for their own interest, never for the Tibetans. They don't think of the consequences, now they are backfired. They should not have meddled in the religious matter. Their recognition of the Karmapa is their plan to make him their political puppet, not for the benefit of the Tibetans or the spiritual practitioners.
The Karmapa has never been involved in politics and he will not be. An enlightened mind will do things that are similar to what they have been doing for the many previous lifetimes, politics certainly is not something the Karmapa did. There is no wonder the Karmapa refuses to be the political puppet of the CTA.
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This is probably the reason why the CTA is not saying anything about the Karmapa after he has run away and the sex scandal he is involved in. If the CTA goes along with the Indian government, they are telling people not to trust them anymore because they can be wrong. If the CTA still recognises Karmapa Ogyen Trinley, they will be seen as going against the Indian government. Either way, the CTA will be put in a awkward position.
Now CTA has to suffer from their misbehaviour. For the longest time, they do things for their own interest, never for the Tibetans. They don't think of the consequences, now they are backfired. They should not have meddled in the religious matter. Their recognition of the Karmapa is their plan to make him their political puppet, not for the benefit of the Tibetans or the spiritual practitioners.
The Karmapa has never been involved in politics and he will not be. An enlightened mind will do things that are similar to what they have been doing for the many previous lifetimes, politics certainly is not something the Karmapa did. There is no wonder the Karmapa refuses to be the political puppet of the CTA.
Ahaaaa no wonder they are so quiet and don't dare to say anything!
CTA, you have blown it this time and you are cornered now... people are going to keep asking you... so who is the real Karmapa please? You should have mind your own business and be a real democratic government.
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Many people are wondering how did the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley escape from China to come to India? There are rumours saying that the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley is a Chinese spy. The Chinese government has arranged him to infiltrate the Tibetan in exile community.
I think there is another possibility. Perhaps it was the CTA who has arranged the escape of the Karmapa. They know the Karmapa needed good tutors and many Karma Kagyu masters were outside of China. So they use this as a bait to lure the Karmapa to go to India.
The CTA knows that it is very unlikely they will be able to bring their Panchen Lama out of China to be the successor of the Dalai Lama. Therefore, they plotted for the Karmapa to escape to India so they can groom him to be the successor or the Dalai Lama. At that time, the Karmapa was young and could be easily controlled. However, the CTA didn't realise not everyone is hungry for money and power. They are overconfident and they have lost their puppet.
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Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje is not recognized by the Indian government anymore and it is very possible that Tibetan leadership is the one that influenced the Indian government on this matter. The Karmapa has been rebellious against the Tibetan leadership for quite some time now.
A year ago, he fled to the western countries in the name of seeking treatment and refuses to come back to India until now. In the meantime, he talked about how the Tibetan leadership is controlling him and how he is very miserable to not able to perform his duties as the Karmapa due to all the restrictions that are imposed on him by the Tibetan leadership.
Now he has taken up a Dominican passport and he forfeited his IC which is given by the Tibetan leadership. With this step, he is able to break free from the Tibetan leadership and he is able to travel to wherever he wishes without the need for approval from the Tibetan leadership. This is a huge slap on the Tibetan leadership’s face because of their very own Karmapa that they nurtured is going against them. This has proven that Tibetan leadership is not good people and they can even exploit and manipulate the high lamas for their own benefits.
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Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje is not recognized by the Indian government anymore and it is very possible that Tibetan leadership is the one that influenced the Indian government on this matter. The Karmapa has been rebellious against the Tibetan leadership for quite some time now.
A year ago, he fled to the western countries in the name of seeking treatment and refuses to come back to India until now. In the meantime, he talked about how the Tibetan leadership is controlling him and how he is very miserable to not able to perform his duties as the Karmapa due to all the restrictions that are imposed on him by the Tibetan leadership.
Now he has taken up a Dominican passport and he forfeited his IC which is given by the Tibetan leadership. With this step, he is able to break free from the Tibetan leadership and he is able to travel to wherever he wishes without the need for approval from the Tibetan leadership. This is a huge slap on the Tibetan leadership’s face because of their very own Karmapa that they nurtured is going against them. This has proven that Tibetan leadership is not good people and they can even exploit and manipulate the high lamas for their own benefits.
The Indian government is angry with the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley because they think they were taken for granted. India allowed him to live in India and gave him shelter but the Karmapa choose to become a citizen of another country. I guess the Indian government found it embarrassing because the Karmapa did not consider becoming an Indian citizen. It made the Indian government felt they were taken for granted.
But if that is the case, the Indian government should get angry with the CTA because many of them choose to become the citizens of the western countries and they don't really want to consider to integrate into the Indian society. How come the Indian government does not condemn the CTA? Maybe it is true that the Indian government is influenced by the CTA to not recognise the Karmapa anymore. The CTA is taking revenge as usual.
The Karmapa doesn't really care if the Indian government will recognise him and let him take over the seat in Rumtek monastery. He probably just wants to be a Dharma teacher and he doesn't want the big title. He has said before he thinks he does not have the qualification to carry the Karmapa title. His meeting with the Karmapa Thaye Dorje is probably to decide who will take the seat in Rumtek monastery. Since the Indian government does not recognise the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley anymore, it is very likely the Karmapa Thaye Dorje will take the seat.
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Ahaaaa no wonder they are so quiet and don't dare to say anything!
CTA, you have blown it this time and you are cornered now... people are going to keep asking you... so who is the real Karmapa please? You should have mind your own business and be a real democratic government.
What's new? If you understand how CTA operates, it is no wonder why CTA is keeping quiet on the Karmapa issue. If there is no benefit for them, they will not get involved, everything they do, they have to be sure they will get something in return. They are busy creating problems for China because they are paid to do that.
There is no way the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley will go back to India. India is actually doing the Karmapa a favour by not issuing the visa to enter India to the Karmapa. It will look as if the Karmapa wants to go back but India is giving him problems. It also shows that the Indian government is not supporting CTA knowing CTA wanted Karmapa to be back in India so desperately.
There is no more successor to the Dalai Lama, CTA must be very panic now. Once the Dalai Lama enters into clear light, they will lose control of the Tibetans, they will lose support from the west. If they are really wise, they should really look into make the Middle Way approach a reality, it will definitely be a win-win situation for both China and CTA.
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Well, up until now, the Tibetan Leaders have not made any announcement of the validity of which Karmapa; Thaye Dorje or Ogyen Trinley. Both Karmapas are widely accepted but the Dalai Lama had chosen Ogyen Trinley as the rightful Karmapa since his escape to India and had been widely seen with him. However, Karmapa Ogyen Trinley ran away and applied for the Dominican Republic's passport and then allegations of sexual relationship with a 5-year affair were announced over the social media, with the possibility of more girlfriends in line. Being in robes and holding vows, Karmapa Ogyen Trinley is setting a very bad example if the allegations are true. Now it is rumored that the Dalai Lama is courting Karmapa Thaye Dorje and I don't think he will succeed after the "slap in the face" by the Dalai Lama in not recognizing him or giving him the ordination vows. So do you still think that the Tibetan Leaders dare to pronounce which is the right Karmapa?
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'Karmapa' Ogyen Trinley no longer recognised by Indian govt as 17th Karmapa. The Indian government is not happy he did not show respect to India for all the years he took refuge in India. He simply renounced his Indian protectorate papers and took a Dominican Republic passport. He could have had the courtesy to let Indian government know beforehand and thank them.
Why are those who are being selected and recognised by the Dalai Lama always turn out to be a bad apple? Trouble makers, political, bias, selfish, a coward and basically just bad people. Look at Sogyal and how much the Dalai Lama supported him before it blew up and became a #MeToo thing. (sigh) Looks like the Dalai Lama is someone who makes mistakes and hence, he definitely can make mistake about Dorje Shugden. Look after he stopped praying to Dorje Shugden, everything he does just becomes rubbish and goes down. Should not have break his samaya with his Guru, Dalai Lama is still subject to the laws of karma.
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So do you still think that the Tibetan Leaders dare to pronounce which is the right Karmapa?
The Tibetan government has been quiet. What do you think? Do you think someone who hold the truth will remain quiet for so long especially this involve the reputation of a world class spiritual leader?
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Rightfully, the Indian government does not have the right or authority to recognise the Karmapa. Each tradition has its own system to recognise their reincarnate lama, endorsement or recognition from a Lama of another lineage or the government is not needed and does not carry weight. The Indian government does not want to recognise the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley because they were angry at him for running away and becoming the citizen of the Republic of Dominica. Even though the Indian government does not want to recognise the status of the Karmapa, it will not affect him, he will still be supported by his group of Sangha members and followers.
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Rightfully, the Indian government does not have the right or authority to recognise the Karmapa. Each tradition has its own system to recognise their reincarnate lama, endorsement or recognition from a Lama of another lineage or the government is not needed and does not carry weight. The Indian government does not want to recognise the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley because they were angry at him for running away and becoming the citizen of the Republic of Dominica. Even though the Indian government does not want to recognise the status of the Karmapa, it will not affect him; he will still be supported by his group of Sangha members and followers.
I do not think the Indian government is not recognising the 17th Karmapa will be any effect on Karmapa Ogyen Trinley. The Indian government has no authority when it comes to spiritual matters in the Karma Kagyu sect of Tibetan Buddhism. On the other hand, Karmapa Ogyen Trinley got His Holiness's recognition a long time ago as the 17th Karmapa.
But it is evident that the Indian government is not happy with the Karmapa's recent activity of accepting a Dominican passport. It is possible that the Indian's government decision to be fuelled by the Tibetan's government tricks to put pressure on the Karmapa. They are trying to take revenge on him since he chose to abandon them.
Karmapa Ogyen Trinley has a lot of students in the west, and he should not come back. After so many years, he finally can taste the freedom away from CTA and carry out his duties as the spiritual head of the Karma Kagyu sect of Tibetan Buddhism.
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If we only see Ugyen Trinley Dorje’s situation from one angle, yes it may sound ungrateful. But why he makes such decision? A lot of people may see he move away from India but the truth is he makes a brave move from the Tibetan leadership. Ugyen Trinley Dorje express himself before that :
1 )he has no freedom of speech within the Tibetan settlements. He was forced to be involved in politics, something he was ill-prepared to deal with.
2) Ogyen Trinley said that historically, the Karmapas are purely spiritual leaders who are not politically involved. And even in this.
3) So not only did he fail to receive a complete spiritual education, but he was also not given the tools to succeed in a secular environment.
The CTA has a trend of splitting lineages and keeping them divided. The CTA intentionally interfered in the Karma Kagyu’s religious affairs and after splitting the lineage, did not lift a single finger to mend the rift or even mediate between both parties. They created the issue in the first place, dividing large groups of people in order to weaken and conquer them. Likewise, the CTA instigated the unjust and illegal ban against Dorje Shugden practitioners, splitting the Gelug lineage in half as well. It is clear the CTA does not care about spiritual practice or its preservation; the only thing that matters is political dominance over the Tibetan people and they have achieved this by attacking what is at the very heart of Tibetan culture – its religion.
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It really doesn't matter if India or the Dalai Lama recognise the 17th Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje is the real Karmapa or not. The two Karmapas met up and jointly wrote a long life prayer for Sharmapa, what is the significance of it? The reincarnation of a high lama is recognised by his own tradition following the procedure of the tradition. It seems like Kagyupas are kind of recognising the two Karmapas as the valid ones. But who will be enthroned, this is still a question. Perhaps, the works of the lama is more important than the title, so none of the two Karmapa will be enthroned and takes over Rumtek Monastery. The CTA is not capable, they have not worked to unite the Tibetans. Therefore, the free Tibet movement will never succeed.