dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: LosangKhyentse on February 12, 2010, 10:12:33 AM
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• May 14, 1995 – Tsangpa Oracle Prophesy I
Prophesy (kha.lung) through the Tsangpa Oracle requested by the Private Office of the Dalai Lama, Prophesies of the Tibetan Government Oracles, published by the Department of Religion and Culture of the Tibetan Administration of the Dalai Lama, Dharamsala, 1996, p. 13.
"It is important that Tibetans should observe their commitments (dam.tsig) which is their obligation. Particularly, the issue of Gyalchen [Dorje Shugden] is a bad omen. In this direction, we, the formless, are aware that it does not harbor good. This should definitely be stopped (mtshams.'jog) in the region of Tibet. With respect to the issue of the unity of religion and politics [of Tibet] and the Ganden Potang government in particular, Gyalchen [Dorje Shugden] cannot demonstrate even a grain of benefit. He can never bring happiness for Tibet [or Tibetan people?].
• June 14, 1995- Tsangpa Oracle Prophesy II
Prophesy (kha.lung) through the Tsangpa Oracle requested by the Cabinet of the exile government: Prophesies of the Tibetan Government Oracles, pp. 14-17.
"An important current issue is that if you continue to go through the motions of government service as if it were punishment instead of serving the Ganden Potang government with total loyalty it is possible that this may pose a serious threat to the well being of Gyalwa Tenzin Gyatso [the Dalai Lama]. A grave issue has arisen concerning the administration of the Ganden Potang. One thing that I, the Tsangpa Dhungthoed Chan, have to say about this explicitly is that [Tibetan] worship of deities has now reached a critical stage. It is extremely sad that Gyalchen [Dorje Shugden] the Chinese spirit is being worshiped.
Even though [Gyalchen] angers Gyalwa Tenzin Gyatso [the Dalai Lama], there are those who worship him [Dorje Shugden] and who revere him in secret. Not only are there such worshipers in Tibet, there is deep reverence for him even among government employees. This is very harmful. That he is of great harm has already been said by Dorje Dragden [Nechung].
In this regard there is a popular perception that there is acrimony between Dorje Dragden [Nechung] and Gyalchen [Dorje Shugden]. That can never be true. For the success of Buddhism and the Ganden Potang government, Dorje Dragden continues to extend to me complete support and since I too am to pursue this path completely, [I have to point out] that if the Cabinet and the People's Deputies [Assembly] do not strictly decide this issue and adhere to it, even though Buddhism may spread and even though the causes for the speedy freedom for Tibet may have begun [to grow], Gyalchen [Dorje Shugden] is sowing dissension [among Tibetans] by employing Chinese spirits and [furthermore] taking advantage of being a formless entity to vocalize and spread misinformation and thereby supporting China. This is a grave matter. Interesting to note here is that the Buddhists who rely on Dorje Shugden strongly favor Tibetan independence. Thus, it is difficult to reconcile that they would be working for the Chinese who are so adamantly against Tibetan independence. It is almost as if someone were trying on purpose to divide the Tibetan people along these lines, zeroing in on the deepest karmic weakness of the Ganden Potang government brought forward into the twentieth century. One has only to ask, in whose interest would such a division be?
We recommend rituals toward the well being of Gyalwa Rinpoche [the Dalai Lama]. Nevertheless, it is our serious concern that there needs to be strict adherence to the wishes of His Holiness and internal unity. Whether it be the People's Deputies or an ordinary Tibetan, it is unacceptable for anyone to engage in partisan politics.
Of the honest guidelines stipulated by [His Holiness] in this regard, the most important is that regarding the worship of deities. If the common Tibetans and the government employees in particular do not heed those guidelines, there will be great loss for all." When in 1995 someone claims that the seeds of freedom for Tibet are flourishing when the Chinese have vowed to wipe out even the name of the Dalai Lama from history seems a blatant contradiction. In fact, this sounds so absurd that one must conclude something else entirely must be going on here. I think it is that the demonization of the Dalai Lama by the Chinese which started in 1995 is passed right on to Dorje Shugden. Perhaps he is strong enough to carry such a heavy burden. Who is to say which would be a greater loss to the tradition of Buddhism, a Dalai Lama shouldering the blame for the loss of Tibet, no doubt unjustly, or Dorje Shugden and the split banning him has caused within Buddhism? All we know for certain is that the demonization of Dorje Shugden split the Tibetan community. It drive underground many genuine Buddhist practitioners and their practices, leaving in the larger public view mostly those who know how to play their political card correctly.
Another interesting point about this "prophesy" is the claim that acrimony between Nechung and Dorje Shugden is impossible. This is a statement from an ultimate and exclusively religious point of view also held by Buddhists who rely on Dorje Shugden. Clearly there is a danger to the Ganden Potang government of the Dalai Lama. The Chinese have been working hard to destroy it for the last fifty years. Blaming Dorje Shugden for the actions of the Chinese makes the issue a political one. Dorje Shugden is -- even for the government protector through this oracle -- a matter of politics. The issue the oracle points out it is about the [deposed] Tibetan government, that is, the institution of the Dalai Lama. It is political, especially when it concerns the Chinese.
In one trance ceremony of Tsering Chenga, the female oracle tells that Dorje Shugden
prevented her from raising the Tibetan flag on the Potala in Lhasa Some of the prophesies of these oracles are published by the exile government's Department of Religion and Culture, 1996: gzung.bsten bod.skyong lha.srung khag.gi rdo.rje bka'.lung bzhug.so // implying that Dorje Shugden works for the Chinese.
• 1995- Exorcism Rituals Against Dorje Shugden
The Dharamsala government Most government rituals are performed by Namgyal Monastery, special to the Dalai Lama and Tibetan government. In the course of the ban, other monasteries were also asked by the government to perform anti-Dorje Shugden rituals, often without the participating monks knowing specifically who had ordered them. performs massive exorcism rituals against Dorje Shugden. For some the Dalai Lama is present. See above reference, the Dalai Lama's statement of March 21, 1996 It is said that for thirteen days after the Tibetan new year celebrated in spring 1996, the government did rituals against Dorje Shugden.
Above article extracted from:
http://www.shugdensociety.info/Bernis2EN.html
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Dear everyone,
This article above is very powerful. I will share my thoughts and comments on the article. It is what I have believed also for the last decade and a half, and it concurs with the prophesy from Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche in the late 70's. Which is in the future, it may look like Dalai lama is at odds with Dorje Shugden, but in actuality they are helping eachother to make Buddha Dharma grow in the world.
1. Dorje Shugden acts in the Bodhisattva manner accepting criticisms, hate campaigns and the 'destruction' of his practice. Why? Because it serves a bigger purpose for the overall survival of Buddhism in the world for the future. Why? It is easier to resurrect or do a Lazarus on Dorje Shugden in the future when the smoke clears, than it would be for the Dalai lama. The Dalai lama is a man and controlled by media, opinions, ppl, circumstances. But Dorje Shugden is a formless entity that can 'rise' above all of that very quickly when the time is right.
2. Whenever Dorje Shugden takes trance in any of the oracles, he never criticizes the Dalai Lama and in fact tells the audience to always withhold criticism towards Dalai Lama. He can say nothing about the Dalai Lama and just keep quiet. Dorje Shugden is well known to not answer questions that has little meaning, insignificant, or unacceptable to the listener. When questions are presented to him through the oracle, he often skips through questions that should not be answered at this time or has no meaning.
3.All the the destruction happening against him, he never makes comments, speaks against nor advices undharmic actions. Because it can all be fully reversed in a short time when the time is right.
4. Temporarily Dorje Shugden will accept the name AS THE CAUSE FOR THE LOSS OF TIBET, OR THE CAUSE WHY TIBET CANNOT BE REGAINED BACK, but in the end truth will arise. Dorje Shugden will reveal the true plot which Trijang Rinpoche already hinted at in the late 70's. ( I fold my hands to Trijang Rinpoche and prostrate my full body to Him. I offer my head as a stepping block for his feet. I truly have confidence in this great being. )
5. Dorje Shugden is strong enough to carry such a burden. Dorje Shugden practitioners are resilient enough to not abandon his practice during this crisis. Both Dorje Shugden and his true followers will not abandon eachother no matter what is said and done temporarily at this time. Both can carry the burden. I personally do not dislike, hate the Dalai Lama but have confidence in him and my own sacred protector Dorje Shugden. I choose to believe and take refuge in Trijang Rinpoche's prophecy. The other two options of hating Dalai lama and abandoning Dorje Shugden are not open to me nor would I choose any of the two options.
6. Why would Dalai Lama act, talk and promote so many contradictory actions that makes himself look unstable. Unless it was on purpose. I believe that truly. He is not stupid.
7. If Kache Marpo has 'destroyed' lamas/ppl/practitioners in the past for breaking the samaya or polluting the yellow hat teachings, then why is Samdhong Rinpoche, Kashag, Kalons, Ministers, Kunga Tara, and even the Dalai Lama himself are spared? Unless there is a much bigger soup brewing.
8. Nechung is the one who requested Dulzin Drakpa Gyeltsen to arise as a uncommon Protector to protect Nagarjuna's view as embodied within Lama Tsongkapa's lineage only 350 years ago. Why would the same Nechung be talking the opposite. Unless there was a larger plan between Dorje Shugden, Dalai lama and Nechung. Seems like a hopeful fantasy? Well to many more, the idea of a dharma protector or Dorje Shugden themselves are fantasies made up by the Tibetan Lamas.
9.If Dorje Shugden is so powerful (which he is), why doesn't he do something to stop all this. Perhaps it is not time to 'stop' all this yet. In fact, Dorje Shugden is putting his followers through 'hell and back' (excuse me) and we have to just take it. Yes we will 'take' it. There has to be a much bigger game plan. Dorje Shugden takes the blame, Dalai lama works hard to make the Buddha Dharma grow while all the elite lamas and teachers are young.
Those who take refuge in Dalai lama and Dorje Shugden will not give up on both. Strongholds for the growth of Buddhadharma and the 're-arisal' of Dorje Shugden in the near future. If Dalai lama is so powerful (which he is), why doesn't he just do a binding ritual or fire puja himself and rid the planet/samsara of this horrible demented being called Jamgon Gyelway Tensung Gyelpo Dorje Shugden. And then stop spending so much time, money, heartaches, energy, resources to keep going against Dorje Shugden???!!! Just get rid of him ONCE AND FOR ALL. THE END. Because the Dalai Lama cannot destroy a being who has actualized the complete path of Guhyasamaja in both completion/generation stages or in other words a Buddha. Dalai lama cannot destroy Buddha Dorje Shugden who is one with Guhyasamaja and the 32 deities of his mandala are the same 32 deities as in Guhyasamaja's entourage.
So for the bigger purpose, the Dalai Lama has TO PUT THE BLAME OF ALL THE ILLS OF TIBET'S MISFORTUNE ONTO DORJE SHUGDEN WHO IS STRONG ENOUGH TO SHOULDER THIS. Dorje Shugden plays the bad guy for now. If it is blamed onto the Dalai Lama, it would spoil his reputation to spread dharma on the global scale which is what he is doing now. Planting seeds of dharma on the global scale, ripe for the young lamas to take over later as well as Dorje Shugden. The ills of Tibet are not Dalai lama or Dorje Shugden's fault, but the Tibetan ppls' own fault. But for most of the world , karma is not accepted, so the blame would go to the leader which is the Dalai lama. We couldn't afford that at this time when no one else can spread Buddhism like the Dalai lama. Think through this carefully to come to terms with the pain in your heart.I do not blame you for the pain. You are not at fault. You are part of a bigger plan. I've had many pains in my heart that I have come to terms with and some still working on because of this issue. We are all part of a bigger plan. Sounds cliche, but it is true and easier to get through the storm with this way of thinking.
10. If Dalai lama loses his reputation because he is the 'cause' for the loss of Tibet, then it would stain his reputation greatly and that would hinder to say the least, his promotion of the BuddhaDharma around the world. No lama of any tradition can match the skills, the persona, the knowledge, the title, and the charisma of Dalai lama to spread Buddhism so far and wide around the world.
11. Why can't the Tibetan Govt and various Monasteries destroy Dorje Shugden through binding rituals? Because they have tried and it shows the power of Dorje Shugden purposely. Hence to keep this power in mind, when later ppl will remember this power when they re-adopt Dorje Shugden's practice later. To leave a mark in ppl's minds that DORJE SHUGDEN CANNOT BE DEFEATED OR DESTROYED.
12. Why is Trijang Rinpoche allowed to practice Dorje Shugden if it harms the cause of Tibet and brings danger to the Dalai lama's life? Because it leaves a mark for the future, to bring up the point that Dorje Shugden does not hinder Tibet or Dalai Lama. These are small traces of hints left by the Dalai Lama for the SURVIVAL OF DORJE SHUGDEN. Someone has to take the blame. That is samsara.
13. Why does Dorje Shugden himself 'SIT ON THE FENCE?' Meaning, he says on one hand to respect and follow what the Dalai Lama says, but on the other hand, he told the Shar Gaden Monks that if their motivation for opening Shar Gaden was for the growth and preservation of the lineage, then it will be auspicious in the future. Doesn't that look contradictory. C'mon, which one is it Dorje Shugden? Clear it for us. So if we were to follow what the Dalai Lama says, why open Shar Gaden and Serpom Monastery? If we were to follow what Dorje Shugden says, then why be on this forum as he says to respect the Dalai lama always.
Should we open Shar Gaden which 'opposes' the Dalai Lama or should we listen to the Dalai lama and abandon Dorje Shugden's practice? Even the great Dorje Shugden sounds contradictory.
Why does Dorje Shugden continuously take trance and give advice even to those who do not give their allegiance up to Dalai lama while practicing Dorje Shugden at the same time? Doesn't that damage the samaya of the individual with Dorje Shugden or with the lama who initiated them into Dorje Shugden's practice? Whichever way you look at it, you damage the samaya with your guru or protector.
Zong Rinpoche (previous), Dagom Rinpoche, Yongyal Rinpoche,Geshe Tendar, current Trijang Rinpoche, current Zong Rinpoche, Geshe Rabten, current Pabongka, Gonsar Rinpoche, the oracle monks, Gangchen Rinpoche, Lama Yeshe, Geshe Tsultrim Gyeltsen, etc etc all took teachings from the 14th Dalai Lama, let's not forget, at once time or another. So if we have taken teachings from the above lamas, then 14th Dalai lama is also our lineage lama which we must respect. Logical?
Since we say the Dalai lama must respect our lineage lamas such as Pabongka, then we must also reverse the situation and respect the Dalai lama as our lineage lama. So either way, the system is set up for you to 'lose'. If that is the case, there must be a MUCH BIGGER PICTURE that current infractions with our lineage lamas can be repaired later FOR THE BIGGER PICTURE.
After all with or without the Dalai Lama/Dorje Shugden current state affairs, we were doing a great job collecting negative karma, breaking commitments, and generally creating the causes for our personal samsaras to remain intact and strong on our own.
It is not the Dalai lama or Dorje Shugden to blame. Nor are they adding to it. We were in Samsara before the Dalai lama's name and Shugden even 'existed' as we know them today.
Yes the Dalai lama does look like he contradicts himelf always. But so does Dorje Shugden. This AGAIN LEADS ME TO BELIEVE THEY ARE COOKING UP SOMETHING MUCH BIGGER OR IT'S NEARLY COOKED.
Yes, it is nearly cooked.
It is best to have respect for the Dalai lama and keep our practices towards Dorje Shugden steady. Whatever the case, if we go to Dalai lama's camp or we go to Dorje Shugden's camp, we go against lineage lamas. So best is to keep an equilibrium by thinking things out logically, following the law of cause and effect, engage in our practices to develop attainments within our continuum. With the great attainment we win freedom totally and no disprespect intended, but we won't need Dalai Lama, Buddha, Dorje Shugden or anyone. And that is their original intention.
I have stated my thoughts at this time and I SINCERLEY HOPE THIS WILL BRING PEACE/UNDERSTANDING TO THE MANY PRACTITONERS THAT VISIT THIS GREAT WEBSITE. With my thoughts, I wish to offend no one, or be right. It is just my attempt to think and reason things out at this time when no many other options are available. Again, I will NEVER GIVE UP MY DORJE SHUGDEN COMMITMENTS AND TO THE LAMAS WHO GAVE ME THE PRACTICES. Nor will I demean and hate His Holiness the Dalai Lama. I will not hate those against Dorje Shugden and forgive them.
Much success to all,
Tk
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Thank you, TK. I have read your entire article. However, I think this says it all: "With respect to the issue of the unity of religion and politics [of Tibet] and the Ganden Potang government in particular, Gyalchen [Dorje Shugden] cannot demonstrate even a grain of benefit."
P.S. My Spiritual Guide (not named in your list) never took teachings from the DL, so the DL is not a lineage Guru for me.
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Your spiritual guide may not have recieved any teachings from Dalai lama, but his spiritual guides most likely has in one way or another in Tibet before 1959 or after. So even if your spiritual guides haven't directly, it is definitely possible that their teachers have. It is very rare that incumbents from Gaden, Sera or Drepung have not recieved teachings from Dalai lama in Tibet prior to 1959 or in exile.
Most likely, 9 out of 10 Gelug Teachers available these days have recieved teachings from the Dalai Lama or their teachers have recieved teachings from the Dalai Lama.
Even the Dalai Lama was very young prior to 1959 still would of required him to teach nominally during Losar or Monlam. And all the Greats, Tulkus, Geshes would have definitely attended. Dalai lama also gave talks/teachings in Buxa (newly in exile) and the monks of Drepung, Gaden, and Sera are all converged there together before the re-establishments of the respective Monasteries in Bylakuppe and Mundgod.
Somehow, Dalai lama being in his 70's, many of the teachers and their teachers would have recieved teachings during losar, monlam, or special ceremonies. The point is that everyone has somehow have everyone in as their lineage gurus.
So we have to be careful even if others choose not be careful if we sincerely wish attainments to be born within our mindstreams. All the higher tantras such as Guhyasamaja, Heruka, Yamantaka, VajraYogini, etc, requests blessings form the root and lineage gurus in the generation stages.
tk
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Gosh - this is a gem for today. What a nice Losar gift. I had to read it and re-read it and there is a lot of information here and logically presented. Thank you very much TK for posting this.
Points to ponder for me were the contradiction with Nechung/Dorje Dragden.. that if Nechung had been the one who had asked Lord Dulzin Drakpa Gyeltsen to become Dorje Shugden, he would not be against Dorje Shugden. That would be illogical.
I also liked your point about HH Trijang Rinpoche being allowed to practice because this will show in future that Dorje Shugden practice does not harm Tibet nor the life of HH Dalai Lama.
As i have always repeated in this forum, since we are all Dorje Shugden practitioners, we should not denigrate HH the Dalai Lama - and TK has mentioned it clearly here that Dorje Shugden himself does not criticise the Dalai Lama and advises everyone NOT to do so either.
Personally, i think that is the sign that Dorje Shugden is truly an enlightened Being because he constantly propagates the Buddhist principles of peace, respect and harmony and if we truly love Dorje Shugden, I think that is what we should do also.
Please keep posting nuggets like this. If only more people could read this. I will post this on my facebook too.
Thank you and Happy Losar!
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Thank you TK for posting these many logical points which presents a very fair and broad picture for us to contemplate. I particularly like your point that both Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden seem to be contradicting themselves; and the related point that whichever side we "choose" (for lack of a better word), we would be breaking our samaya. Why would our protectors or Lamas set us up to fail?! We choose and take refuge in these great beings and teachings because we have complete faith that they will help us to progress in our spiritual practice, not send us to hell or confusion!!
It is a VERY EXCELLENT point that all our Lamas will somehow be connected back to the Dalai Lama - either Dalai Lama would have either taught our own lineage lamas or, in turn, our own lineage of Lamas would have taught him. Either way, we can't "escape" the lineage that connects us back to the same line and lineage of Lamas and to our own protector. Our samaya is there to be "broken" whichever way we choose - again, why would our Lamas and the 3 jewels do that to us and set us up to fail or create negative karma for ourselves?
In the same vein therefore, when we criticise and attack the dalai Lama, we are also criticising our own lineage and our own Lamas and all the lams within that lineage. We shoot ourselves in our own foot! In 1959, when all the Lamas escaped from Tibet in 1959, they all congregated at Buxa and were all receiving or giving teachings; they would have all attended and therefore, all been connected.
As TK has said therefore, wouldn't it be most wise (and ultimately beneficial for ourselves) to "keep an equilibrium by thinking things out logically, following the law of cause and effect, engage in our practices to develop attainments within our continuum". Many of us have forgotten the very basis of our practice and Dharma - Karma - as we get so embroiled in the politics of this issue and continue to lama-bash or deity-bash.
Another point I'd like to add is that it is also completely illogical to associate Dorje Shugden practitioners with the certainty that they are receiving help/money from China or are China spies or being corrupted and bribed by China. What about all those hundreds of years before where there was no China issue and the Lamas never even left Tibet? Were they being corrupted then also? Were they also selling out their own country and being spies then also? Dalai Lama himself also practised - so did he jeopardise his own health and the future of his own country also? Why would he contradict himself like that and also set up his whole country to contradict themselves also?! Why would a practice go from being an enlightened one, to suddenly becoming political since the arisal of Tibetan Independence issue?
The whole issue is, as TK has very clearly pointed out, totally fraught with contradictions that leave us no option but to consider that there MUST be a much larger picture than what we are seeing at face value now. If we have taken refuge and had the incredible good fortune to study and practice closely with a Guru, we will also have experience and understand that the Gurus often tell us things or give us practices/tasks etc that we can't understand or which even seem to be painful for us as we go through a process of healing or realisation. I believe that this is what Dalai Lama - representing all our Gurus and line of Lamas - and Dorje Shugden are doing for us.
Just do our practices well, remember what our Lamas have taught us in the dharma and be sincere in our practice. That is the best way we can promote, defend and spread the teachings of both Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden and reflect our Lamas well.
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This matches what I have had in my mind for a while, that the actions of the Dalai Lama appear contradictory, which doesnt make sense for such an esteemed Lama. The original post by tk is logical, well thought out and bears close reading and re-reading.
Yes, one can choose to follow the Dalai Lama's advice to the letter, but logic is a key element of the study of Buddhism. So when we examine the fact that Dalai Lama has allowed Trijang Rinpoche to practice, doesnt it raise the questions that
1) How come it doesnt affect the cause of Tibetan independence
2) How come it doesnt affect the long life of the Dalai Lama
If what Dalai Lama says is true ie that Trijang Rinpoche allowed to practice because he is such an attained master that Dorje Shugden will not affect him, then why doesnt Dalai Lama ask Trijang Rinpoche to perform a ritual to destroy Dorje Shugden? What is the purpose of allowing Trijang Rinpoche to practice at all????
Hence the premise put forward by TK is one that makes sense on many levels and offers an answer to the questions above.
Another point that I like: The ban started with Nechung's prophecy that Dorje Shugden's practice would be damaging to Tibetan independence and HHDL's long life. Yet it was Nechung that first requested Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen to arise as a protector. And he prompted Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen to remember the promise he made in his previous incarnations to protect the teachings of Je Tsongkapa. So which one is it Nechung? Why "create" Dorje Shugden only to slam down his practice later?
Note that the Tsangpa Oracle takes trance of peaceful Setrap - another enlightened protector. The oracle pronouncements seem to criticise Shugden. Yet Setrap and Dorje Shugden share the same mandala. Yet another contradiction in this endless maze of contradictions?
And for those who do practice Dorje Shugden, we are breaking samaya no matter which way we turn. Many lamas, perhaps even 9 out of 10 Tibetan lamas have received teachings from Dalai Lama. And in any case, my lama has received teachings from the Dalai Lama, so he is in my line of lineage gurus. I respect Dalai Lama and I do not hate him. But I will hold my commitments to my root lama strongly to heart. Appearing to sitt on the fence is not necessarily a sign of weakness and cowardice. Sometimes it is the least damaging path. Follow Dorje Shugden's example.
Admin, please add this gem of a posting to the permanent section at the top of the forum.
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Dear all,
The information presented within this thread like the many of the others are thought-provoking and very relevent to all Tibetan Buddhists. With the statements issued from the Dalai Lama and now the Tsangpa oracle adds more fuel to the current state of affairs. Knowing a little bit from much of the wonderful articles within this website and the comments and statements posted by the many other fellow forum users.
Of all the views I have heard, the most appealing is that of tk's explanation of the current state of affairs. It makes the most sense to me that as according to Trijang Rinpoche's much earlier prophesy of the current clash. It appears to be a clash but the result is more people are worshiping Dorje Shugden. Despite the clampdown, many people are practising and even within the TGIE as expressed by the Tsangpa Oracle.
It is funny that samaya was brought up within the prophesy. Maybe samaya is pledged to the Dalai Lama for those in the TGIE but for others like us around the world, our samaya is towards our Lama who compassionately gives us our yidam and protector practices. However, having said that, we should not deny the Dalai Lama who is also our lineage Lama and clearly an eminent student of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. Hence, the growing appeal of sitting on the fence and quietly creating the causes for all this to end which is also prophesied by Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. (Heck! Even Dorje Shugden does this although he is persecuted!)
In my opinion, it is funny that they would even compare the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden's importance in Buddhism. A Lama is always more important especially the Dalai Lama but the Dalai Lama is after all a man and will come to pass... And Dorje Shugden will continue to pervade and benefit countless beings after his passing. What is amazing is that when the Dalai Lama passes, logically the other high Lamas will step in to take care of the 'flock' and many of them already practicing Dorje Shugden. Hence, the Dalai Lama works very hard to become world famous. I understand now. How exciting! It will be like a new world order!
It sounds like the Dalai Lama has been orchestrating this all along. All Lamas prepare for their passing because they meditate on it every single day. It doesn't make sense that after decades of hard work and teachings and then allow it to die or degenerate after their passing. He must be working on a level that we cannot comprehend at this time and after all, some Tibetan Lamas and yogis are pretty well known for that. It is clear that Dorje Shugden is already an unstoppable force but he will always revere the Dalai Lama - a testament to Dorje Shugden's wisdom and compassion.
Hence, I too choose to take refuge in Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's prophesy. I hope websites and forums like these spread the truth to many out there so everyone is aware and less conflicts will occur the Dalai Lama's divine plans to come to fruition.
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Dear everyone,
Thank you for your opinions. I do appreciate reading them.
TK
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Hey Everyone,
Happy Losar!
Wow! TK's findings and sharings is really helpful to a newbie like me. I didnt know that it really meant so logical to have all these happenings at this time when Buddhism and human ethics are degenerating greatly.
From what I've read from TK's posts, these three figures seem to take on 2 personalities at different times. Each taking different sides of pro and against at different times to different crowds. I mean, how can HHDL in his own ways stop all DS practices within the Tibetan community and at the same time permits the new incarnation of Trijang Rinpoche to practice DS right? Nechung was the one bugging Dulzinpa to manifest as a holy protector and he was the one to fan up flames within the Gaden prodrang people back then to create the causes for Dulzinpa to arise as a protector, now he's saying that DS is a bad spirit. DS on the other hand says to support the cause of HHDL but on the other hand spoke in trance to the monks of Shar Gaden that their move to establish Shar Gaden was right.....isn't it a bit too confusing which sides these 3 figures are on??? ???
Are the Buddhas really confused or are they playing a prank on us? The loophole here which matches what TK has shared that I read somewhere that HH the previous Trijang Rinpoche said that in the future there will be an upheaval in the Tibetan Buddhist scene and Trijang Rinpoche gave advice not to abandon DS and at the same time not to lose faith in HHDL as well. Based on this statement (I need to dig out the source) backed by TK's post, I think it really makes sense.
Thanks TK, your posting really came in time to help people like myself.
Long life and happiness to you
cheers,
HN
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After reading this ... everything seems so much more CLEARER!!! Thank you TK for the logical 13 points stated above that makes us all not lose faith in both His Holiness as well as Dorje Shugden!
I especially like Point no. 3 as it says a lot. Yes why is there never once Dorje Shugden speak ill against the Dalai Lama or advices us to go against the Dalai Lama despite all the "outward destruction" against Dorje Shugden??? That it self leads me to think deeper that there must be something else we don't know that is beyond our concept at this point. And if Dorje Shugden never speaks ill of the Dalai Lama who are we to do that?
Point no.6 "Why would Dalai Lama act, talk and promote so many contradictory actions that makes himself look unstable. Unless it was on purpose."
I too do not think the Dalai Lama is so stupid. How can 1 man fooled the entire world, scientists, philosophers, leaders of nations, if he was not sincerely promoting the Dharma? They would have stiffed him out a long time ago. He is still up till today the most popular Buddhist monk in the world who can single handedly attract hundred of thousands to his teaching. Hence planting Dharma seeds in them for later. He hasn't worked this much and this far to purposely destroy his reputation, go to court for no reason?
This above points also clears the questions of why the Dalai lama doesn't himself just subdue/bind Dorje Shugden, just get rid of him, if he really was a spirit? Instead of talking so much till He gets a soar throat! And no spirit can bring any harm to those who has taken refuge right, what more a monk? Hence it makea no sense Dorje Shugden can harm any the Dalai Lamma.
Another point is Why keep blasting and implementing the Ban knowing very well that it would be so easy for China to pick it and happily promote Dorje Shugden massively! If the Dalai Lama doesn't want China or anyone to practice Dorje Shugden and spread the teachings, he would not be going around telling the media, the world about it. If really Dorje Shugden will create problems for the Dalai Lama's life and the cause of Tibet Independence then the Dalai Lama himself would have been the main culprit who have started the promotion of it with this Ban issue!
So it only leaves me to realise and agree with what TK said that it would be far better and wiser for us all to keep an equilibrium being patient, following the law of cause and effect, do our own practices well to develop attainments. After all the nothing is permanent.
If Dorje Shugden himself is 'SITTING ON THE FENCE?' Then I guess I should too. After all we claim him to be our Enlightened Protector :)
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Concerning Trijang Rinpoche's advice
One has to remember, that all the teachings given by the Buddha were contextual, that is, dependent upon the audience. Therefore everything that the Buddha teached, must be taken in relation to something else. There are no absolutes in Dharma. This is a basic fact. At the very least all Mahayanists should understand this point, and us Vajrayanists especially. And in Theravada too, there are conflicting teachings since there are the two Sanghas, the householders and the homeless ones. I'll guess we all understand this point, at least when it comes to Madhyamika and Chittamatra, Hinayana and Mahayana, and so forth. But it goes all the way, through the Dharma. Really.
And now, if we Shugdenites accept that Trijang Dorjechang was indeed a Buddha, we must understand his statements, advices and teachings in the same manner. They were meant for specific audiences at a specific times. They were not absolute universal commandements. We can, and indeed must, make rational judgements about his words. (There is of corse a slightly different tone with written books and spoken advice, since the authors of books tend to make more general statements whereas the recorded spoken word tends to be more audience-sensitive in a narrowing sense.)
And as this is so, I would therefore like to have the context of Trijang Rinpoche's well known advice that says that somebody or somebodies should in the future retain faith in both DS and DL. This kind of advice is meaningless without the context. What was the context? Who were the primary intended audience? When was it said and to whom? And so forth. The context must be present whenever a teaching or a quote is given, since otherwise we could all just dig the Sutras and Sastras to have a snippets of words or lump-a-words that nicely suit us ourselves.
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I have many marooned clothed friends in Gaden and many senior monk friends. The senior monks are already now aged into their 70's related that Trijang Rinpoche mentioned not to lose faith in DL and DS because in the future it would seem as if they are against eachother. They are there in Gaden with Trijang Rinpoche, when Trijang Rinpoche said this.
Time it was said: Late 1970's after composing His volume on Dorje Shugden in order to preserve the lineage after He has passed away.
Place it was said: Gaden Monastery.
Audience: close students who are senior monks now in Gaden. Intended time for the advice to be remembered is after the death of Trijang Rinpoche. And if we need clarification after Trijang Rinpoche has passed away, we should refer to the volume Trijang Rinpoche has so kindly written for us to preserve Dorje Shugden's lineage. This volume is scanned in and available on this website (thank you so much webmaster).
Time it is referred to: Trijang Rinpoche meant this prophecy to be fulfilled after his death. He has written this volume to preserve Dorje Shugden's lineage as it would seem that DL and DS will be at odds after his death and he would not be around to clarify. So he leaves this volume on Dorje Shugden written by himself for the future generations. Dalai Lama was aware he is composing this volume. Trijang Rinpoche mentioned during that time in the future not to lose faith in both DL and DS.
To add to that, when the ban first happened in the 90's, Dulzin took trance of Choyang Kuten in Gaden. The audience were Jangtze monks who asked Dulzin to do something regarding the ban. Dulzin replied, to be steadfast in their practice simultaneously not to say negative words against Dalai Lama. That in the future, the ppl who gave up their Ds practice and berated Ds WILL COME TO DULZIN AND APOLOGIZE.
Both the information above was passed to me by senior monks of Gaden.
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Yes why is there never once Dorje Shugden speak ill against the Dalai Lama or advices us to go against the Dalai Lama despite all the "outward destruction" against Dorje Shugden???
Maybe it is because non-physical beings are not capable to speak to us in any way, whether against something or otherwise. ;D
That it self leads me to think deeper that there must be something else we don't know that is beyond our concept at this point. And if Dorje Shugden never speaks ill of the Dalai Lama who are we to do that?
Oh please now, could you really pretty please do not use the "god has a bigger picture, whereas I'm just an unknowing idiot" -argument. It is so lame. And especially, it does not work very well in Buddhism. If you claim that the evil done is not necessarily evil, because maybe you do not have the moral apparatus in your heart to make the judgement, or the necessary information in your brains, you are removing yourself from the humanity, you are placing yourself into the flocks of animals. If you claim that you are not capable of making moral judgements on your own, then there is no Buddhism for you. Really.
The argument or existential position of "God knows the best" or "the Party knows what we need" or "the Dalai will save us all" is no argument or position at all. It is merely the empty words of an automaton. It is not even existence. You could as well not exist. Not even you would miss you. To be, is to be human, and to be human is to be moral, and that requires moral judgement which is not given from outside, from the God or the Party. If you are, then you must be you. There is no other way. And as a human, you cannot say that an evil today is a big blessing tomorrow.
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Yes, it could be in the late 1960's or 70's..of which it doesn't matter in regards to His message. Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche presented/taught the text to students many times and has repeated such message in regards to the future for many audiences many times.
As the time came closer to His passing, the message became sound and clear in Gaden, that after the passing of Himself, this so called disharmony would occur between DL and DS. And when that time comes, do not lose faith in both as they are helping eachother to make the Dharma grow bigger in the world. Although it would appear to be the opposite. That matches what Dulzin says also not to slander DL.
tk
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Oh please now, could you really pretty please do not use the "god has a bigger picture, whereas I'm just an unknowing idiot" -argument. It is so lame. And especially, it does not work very well in Buddhism. If you claim that the evil done is not necessarily evil, because maybe you do not have the moral apparatus in your heart to make the judgement, or the necessary information in your brains, you are removing yourself from the humanity, you are placing yourself into the flocks of animals. If you claim that you are not capable of making moral judgements on your own, then there is no Buddhism for you. Really.
The argument or existential position of "God knows the best" or "the Party knows what we need" or "the Dalai will save us all" is no argument or position at all. It is merely the empty words of an automaton. It is not even existence. You could as well not exist. Not even you would miss you. To be, is to be human, and to be human is to be moral, and that requires moral judgement which is not given from outside, from the God or the Party. If you are, then you must be you. There is no other way. And as a human, you cannot say that an evil today is a big blessing tomorrow.
I guess you/we have the highest wisdom, the omniscient mind higher than any lama, teacher or Buddha past present and future. What you see is what you percieve. Hence a glass a water to you is a glass of water to you. But to a preta, it can appear as spittle or urine. Hence to a preta it is urine and to you it is water, who is right?? What you see is not what you get.
God or Christian Judeo theory of God knows more than you does not apply here. God knows more is an attempt to explain something mysterious that may cause someone to doubt or lost faith in God. God always knows and you always don't. So don't question God. It is not like that in Buddhism at all. We do not know as much now, or able to percieve as much as a Buddha but that is impermanent depending on our efforts. You cannot question God. But you can question Buddha so you can become a Buddha.
In Buddhism, it would refer to higher attainments. If higher attainments through meditative experiences are possible, then the level in which a mind can percieve would be differing also. What happened to Shakyamuni under the bodhi tree on the night of his full enlightenment? The 1st watch, 2nd watch, 3rd watch, etc? With each watch his understanding and perception encompassed all sentient beings more and more and seeing every single life they have taken rebirth in simultaneously. I am not able to do that. But Buddha is able to. That does not make him a God, but an omniscient one, or a Buddha. There is nothing wrong in accepting Buddha would percieve more and some of the things he can percieve, there is no way we can.
A highly attained being having greater insight than us is not lame. Otherwise why take refuge in a Buddha. Do you know more than a Buddha? If you do, then you are right. Always right. Then why practice dharma? You wouldn't need to.
No offence intended to you. Just sharing my thoughts with you please. Thank you.
TK
P.s. No one called you and unknowing idiot. And just because you don't know everything does not mean you are an idiot. No need to be so extreme. Either you know or you are an idiot. It's not like that. I don't know as much as Trijang Rinpoche or Dulzin. Why? Because I don't have their attainments. There is certainly 100% possibility due to their attainments they know of the past, present and future much more than me. But I don't feel bad just inspired to become like them one day.
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Perhaps, but it all depends on if the DL was on good terms with his guru Trijang Rinpoche in his final years. I have heard things to the contrary, but will refrain from saying much until there is more certain indication.
In Bernis' research (p. 50 of the pdf), she says that in 1980 the Dalai Lama visited Trijang Rinpoche "for the first time in several years." Doesn't sound like they were on good terms.
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much to consider and I heard this at the begining from someone.
So many experiences to reevaluate and reconsider with the perspective that tk has so elegantly presented this morning.
It all sound so nice and momentarily makes all the strife worthwhile, maybe.
I see what this might bring to Tibetans, but I am uncertain what it means to the World Peace at this time of incredible options, if we pursue peace and not war. The Dalia brings out the nastiness and does not appear to that of a lama. Unless he is as you say, working a survivial approach for Mahayanna Buddhism.
I must say that Trijang Rinpoche did not appear to be in a cosmic ruse when we brought up the Dalia Lama.
I must say, I will need more time to reflect on this as a strategy and what words are best applied to bring about our wishes and results.
You are indeed a very honest person that speaks your mind. Your willing to evaluate a long held thinking when you read something that might fit better. Whether my theory is correct or your's is correct is not the point here. The point is your extremely honest.
Most important is to create peace within the minds of practitioners as much as possible of course based on the truth.
Thank you.
TK
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Oh please now, could you really pretty please do not use the "god has a bigger picture, whereas I'm just an unknowing idiot" -argument. It is so lame. And especially, it does not work very well in Buddhism................
..............A highly attained being having greater insight than us is not lame. Otherwise why take refuge in a Buddha. Do you know more than a Buddha? If you do, then you are right. Always right. Then why practice dharma? You wouldn't need to.
No offence intended to you. Just sharing my thoughts with you please. Thank you.
Somehow I think that my thoughts were not transmitted in this thread. But hey.... you cannot win, in samsara. ;D
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wow beautifully mind blowing and this resonates with what my Lama taught about his issue! My points exactly, but sadly i lack the factual evidence to back it up but u were able to. Thanks tk!
they were extremely clear and illuminating...
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My Lamas were both direct disciples of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. After the issue came into open light in 1996 they never ever gave the slightest justification for the Dalai Lama´s actions even though one of them was a personal friend with the Dalai Lama. Most on the contrary. Both were in their kadampa attitude entirely and utterly in disagreement with the Tibetan leader without the slightest restriction nor the slightest hint of the slightest justification. I can tell you that both were highly realized beings, peerless. Their holiness was so blatant that it´s almost irrelevant that both got that title --rinpoche-- that many others have had before and after them. And I can tell you under my heaviest karmic responsibility that they would shake their heads in disbelief if someone were to repeat to them the things that have been appearing in this website about the higher, unknown purpose of this sacrilege against Dharma that has been committed by the Tibetan leader.
Now, it´s true that my Lamas were gone from this world a while ago. When the horrid schism and persecution that started at the Winter Retreat in December 2007 and culminated with the forced campaign that produced the complete extirpation of our people from all monasteries and communities, when that happened, here in this Forum we were some of us, at least me, still hesitant about denouncing the Dalai Lama, not out of the silly argument of his mysterious good hidden purposes but out of compassion for all those in the world who had him as an icon of goodness, as the face of Buddhism.
His actions in that Winter of 2007/2008 demanded that we protect the persecuted monks and thus we started here our international campaign of information about the Dalai Lama's persecution of a religious minority. Our hesitations were not correct any more, the most urgent, important thing was to protect the unprotected, and mainly our innocent monks in South India and elsewhere. So we started our actions. But in the meantime I had the occasion of talking to one of the few Rinpoches that openly belongs to our lineage living in the United States. I didn´t have my Lamas with me, and I knew what I had to do. But I thought of supplicating his kindness for a confirmation. This is a man Teacher of Teachers, a venerated Rinpoche from one of our big monastic institutions. A disciple of the old Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche too. And his answer was: IT IS CORRECT TO TELL THE WORLD THAT HIS ACTIONS ARE WRONG. I´m sorry guys. You can call all the oracles in the world, our Lamas are above all oracles. (And only the high Lamas can really know what oracles are saying but this is another matter.)
So we wrote and wrote and wrote and published everywhere we could. Of course, our campaign was magnificently overcome by the actions of the WSS: the extraordinary demonstrations of the Spring/Summer 2008, where you still can see the videos, and the people belonging to Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche´s labdang are in first line shouting their protest against the Dalai Lama in the face of the world.
THE WSS DEMONSTRATIONS SAVED THE MONKS. THE WSS DEMONSTRATIONS INSTILLED SUCH FEAR IN DHARAMSALA THAT THE DIRECT PERSECUTION IN THE MONASTERIES could not culminate in what had been announced by the Abbots of Sera to their Protector´s friends from Pomra: that the Dalai Lama not only wanted them out of the monasteries but out of India altogether. And this could not be acheived because of the fear for his reputation that the WSS demonstrations inspired the DL and his followers.
So dear Noobs, you can go on with your nice gospel, who´s to stop you. BUT AT LEAST THE READERS ARRIVING AT THIS WEBSITE WILL KNOW THAT YOURS IS NOT THE GENERAL OPINION OF THIS WEBSITE´S PEOPLE. Here we have too much respect for the Buddhas, whose main action as Buddhas is to teach us what to abandon and what to practice, and we do not like that they are betrayed by confusing people teaching them the opposite to their basic teachings: that what is wrong is right. It is not like that. The wrong of the Dalai Lama´s doings is to huge to be described in words. And your gospel is forcing us to proclaim it, now that we thought that we would stop talking about him because we are having some peace, due to the rise and prosperity of Serpom and Shar Ganden. No, now we have to defend the truth against the Noobs' gospel, instead of retiring to a desired silence.
Quite regularly I feel overwhelmed by sadness on behalf of the Dalai Lama. I've loved him dearly and never tried to stop loving him. How could I hate him while loving him? I can´t. So could you stop whining your niceties about not hating the Dalai Lama? Stop being absurd. Who is hating him? To love him has nothing to do with signaling his wrongdoings to the world when it´s needed.
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Dear A friend,
1. You are a global moderator. Yet I find your opinions very biased hence not matching the mission statement of this website. You should please read the MISSION STATEMENT of this website and what you are posting does not match the spirit of the website. Please encourage polite debate between those who are for, against and in between. It is all words anyway. But at least let ppl read the words and think both sides please.
2. I think you should stop your negativities against the 'noobs' whoever that is suppose to be. You are suppose to moderate not take sides. I am sorry to say to you.
3. There are ppl who are for DL and against. They all come on this forum, but you must make everyone feel 'welcomed' to a certain degree and not call their opinions re the Dalai lama their 'noobs gospels.'
Please stop criticizing the ppl who have recently joined as noobs. You shouldn't call them noobs. I find that very rude, unwelcoming and also unnecessary. Welcome everyone. Through patience, explanations, and kind words help ppl change their minds if you feel it is wrong. Don't ever tire of explaining again and again if you wish to be in a forum out of your care and compassion for ppl who are new to this forum, to the practice, to Dorje Shugden and the ban perhaps.
Let everyone express their thoughts for the Dalai lama, their higher purpose opinions, their dislike of Dalai lama opinions and whatever opinions anyone may have. It is healthy for a forum. Everyone should express without a moderator being biased in your dislike toward some people and their opinions.
I do apologize for saying the above to you, but I would request you to think of your position please.
Thank you,
TK :)
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Dear TK,
I thank you very much for your kind opinion.
It´s time that again I repeat that this title of Global Moderator has nothing to do with anything else than watching for electronic attacks. Beyond that, I don´t moderate anything, I don´t have that capacity and I don´t exert it. I didn´t request this title, and I´m all ready to relinquish it at any moment. Actually if you are ready to watch for malicious electronic attacks I would right away request Administration to pass on the title to you, I would feel so much better, believe me. Actually, I´m proposing any of the old people of this website who would like to do this job (to have an eye for electronic attacks) to please let me know, I´ll ask Administration to award the Global Moderator title to whoever would like it.
About the Noobs, a cute name that somebody gave the group of people that all the sudden came to this website to defend what I believe is a very serious wrong view, I have to tell you that the use of the word "gospel" has nothing insulting, it´s a type of synonim for dogma of belief. The Noobs are welcome, and it´s evident that they are free here to express their opinion. But please do not ask me to welcome opinions that I consider wrong views, very harming for Dharma. I do not welcome opinions about the Dalai Lama´s supposed hidden good intentions. I didn´t welcome them coming from Beggar, whom I consider my friend. I don´t welcome them coming from a group of people whose concerted actions have intentions that I cannot fathom. Some people in this website have expressed suspicion about the Noobs' intentions, and I think with good reasons. I personally am not convinced one way or another.
Anyway, again, thank you for your opinion TK. One thing is sure, I don´t have any doubts about your good intentions.
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Dear A friend,
My only intention is TO SPREAD THE PRACTICE OF DORJE SHUGDEN AND TO CLEAR ANY MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT HIM.
And I am open to listen to any opinions that is related to Dorje Shugden. Whether they are right or wrong. Because I can learn from both.
This is my intention and only intention. I will never rest from accomplishing the spread of Shugden's gospel.
TK
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Dear A friend,
You have a right to your opinion as much as I do. I appreciate what you said but you are a moderator and like what tk said, you should be voicing more views that encourage discussion and not dissension! Now, it seemed that you are mobilizing yourself and others to suppress 'our gospel'. Well, actually there is no gospels, only opinions. I would appreciate if you don't label it gospels, it is derogatory.
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Mission Statement
This website, an ongoing work in progress, is dedicated to the glorification and deeper appreciation of the name and holy work of His Holiness the Dalai Lama, who by peaceful, increasing, subjugating and wrathful means spreads in this world the general and profound teachings of the Buddhadharma that can dispel all suffering and its causes. We believe that what may sound contradictory today, will be revealed as skilful means in the future.
It is dedicated to the lineage Lamas, without whom the holy teachings would have disappeared, and without whose blessings, obtained by a pure bond of faith and reverence, the transmission is broken and the foundation of Enlightenment destroyed.
It is dedicated to the increasing number of aspiring practitioners who have been affected by the apparent controversy about the nature and intent of Gyalchen Dorje Shugden, whose enlightened mind and qualities have and are being recognized and relied upon by so many exalted Masters, some of them with reincarnation lineages all the way back to Buddha Shakyamuni.
We have no wish to convert or even convince anyone about this. In Buddhism we can only convert ourselves, by studying and applying the methods offered – if you practice Tara and become more arrogant and materialistic, it is a bad practice, as far as YOU are concerned. If you pray to Dorje Shugden and become more humble and committed to the Bodhisattva ideal, it is a good practice, as far as YOU are concerned. It is our thoughts, words and actions that make karma. It is our motivation that determines these.
We have a great wish to serve in healing the schism and doubts created in the minds of those new to Dharma or otherwise yet unable to look deeper and strive to apply the principles of non-harming and introspection on every level.
For those passing judgment on enlightened Beings (can you REALLY be sure who is and who is not?) – may we remind you of the Lamrim teachings where it is stated that converting anyone at the cost of their faith in their previous teachers or religion is equal to killing a thousand Buddhas. May we remind you that creating schism within the Sangha is one of the five “crimes of immediate retribution”. May we remind you of the Bodhisattva vow of never giving up Bodhicitta. If something or someone is harmful, misdirected etc., wouldn’t the sign of true practitioners be that their compassion grows?
For those who are influenced by these judgements – their door to Dharma may well close for this life, and who knows when such an opportunity will arise again. Anyone truly concerned could easily avoid the horrible karma created in this way, by truly practicing what they believe is good and becoming a shiny example of goodness and wisdom that speaks for itself.
It is dedicated to provide information and inspiration for those with an affinity to Dharmapala Dorje Shugden, based on writings, sayings, prayers and praises by enlightened Masters and their examples of wisdom and compassion, as well as on sharing interesting thoughts of intelligent people.
Much of our own thoughts and conclusions will have to remain in the realm of speculation, just like so much that has been written, as we are ordinary beings lacking the clairvoyance of the wise. We will, however, do so with the sole aim to present possible ways to see what arises as the display of enlightened minds, not the battle between right and wrong, so as to decrease afflictive emotions and actions and to invite us all to focus on our ongoing responsibility to look deeper; to look within.
“Drive all enemies into one,” as the old Kadampas said; the one (and only) enemy being of course the self-grasping and self-cherishing mind.
Extracted from:
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=27
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Big Uncle: Now, now... Precisely when TK comes to terms with the word "gospel", and uses it himself, you get offended by it. Well, this is news to me that the word gospel in general or the word gospel in this particular meaning of "dogma" or "belief" was derogatory.
Anyway, since you are new to this website you should know that here we are used to our different opinions. With Beggar we had a long battle that never got resolved about this issue of the imaginary Dalai Lama´s hidden good intentions. At that time he was the GB and he didn´t stop from voicing his own opinion. And I´m not planning to stop myself from voicing mine. The reasons I have for this I just stated them in my last posts.
Änd let´s see: "mobilizing others against your gospel"? Is this a case of projection? If you made the effort of acquainting yourself with this website reading the old posts, you would see that before the newly arrived started their concerted mobilization against the WSS actions in this website (and apparently elsewhere too they say?) there was no mobilizing anybody against anybody. We had and we have individual personal opinions.
No matter what, I´d be curious to know how this happened. Are you ready to tell us why and how all of a sudden you all decided to declare a D Day and chose this website as your Normandy?
Dear TK: as I said, we had a long, never resolved battle with dear Beggar about precisely this issue. I maintain without doubts the view that it is a wrong view to suggest higher purposes in the Dalai Lama's actions. I gave some reasons and I think they are good, since they try to defend the heart of Lord Buddha´s actions. But please you have to understand that I might not be giving all the reasons I have. There is a limit to the shame one is able to bear from talking about these matters. So please if we could leave the Dalai Lama alone and go back to our practice, as I´ve asked so many times, I would not be forced time and again to remind myself and others about his frightening actions. Why don´t we concentrate on our Je Rinpoche´s teachings, on our Protector´s actions and forget about all the negativity?
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Dear A friend,
1. You wish to emphasize DL's frightening activities, and you wish me to not mention the higher purpose.
Can we do the reverse? Or just keep on expressing what we both feel is right without restricting eachother, that would be nice. You will not think like me, and vice versa, so let's just keep up our happy foruming expressing what we both feel in freedom.
2. You wish everyone to only talk about Je Rinpoche's teachings, protector's activities and forget about all the negativities. Please do forget all the negativities and shame you have experiened, so when ppl talk about the Dalai Lama you will not be offeded. Please apply the teachings that you have learned to heal. Better to wear shoes then wrap the whole world in leather to protect your feet.
3. You and Beggar might had a long never resolved 'BATTLE', but I am not battling with you. I am not here to battle. Nor do I wish to battle with anyone here or anywhere. I am expressing my views with the beliefs I choose just like you.
I have a different opinion regarding what is happening and I have very good reasons for myself to believe it also. I maintain without a doubt that the Dalai lama and Dorje Shugden are working hand in hand to make dharma grow in the world. So when I mention these things and that upsets you or reminds you of the shame you had to bear, I am sorry for you. I truly am. I hope you heal.
But I cannot stop my beliefs because of your experiences. That is your experience and not mine. And I wish you gain peace, but that won't happen just because I stop talking about what you don't believe. Or when I do talk about it, you wish to do 'battle'. I am not here to criticize you if you believe opposite of what I believe. Your negative posts regarding the Dalai lama does not disturb me even slightly. Contrary, I find them interesting and I think them through always. I don't agree with them and if we met, I would discuss the same issues with you with alot of laughter and friendly gentle debate over tea and cake. I would never get upset, riled up or aggravated in any way by your opinions that contradicts my own. It would be very lively session and I would always keep it that way please. So let's have our 'tea and cake conversations' on the forum please.
And I will CONTINUE TO EXPRESS MY BELIEFS REGARDING DL AND DS'S HIGHER PURPOSE AND Je Rinpoche's teachings/protector's action and any other subject I wish, but it is not to defy you, but you need to come to terms with what you went thru but not by controlling what I can and cannot express.
If my posts offend you, reminds you of the shame you have endured, then may I gently suggest to you not to read my posts (folded hands and apologies). Till perhaps when you feel better about it.
I am attracted to this website and have remained with it because of the mission statement. Due to the nature of the mission of this website, I feel it is unbiased and gives a platform for all to speak. If the mission statement changes, then I may not participate anymore.
I sincerely believe what I believe due to good reasons I have and I will continue as so. Again I apologize sincerely to you for offending you without wanting to in anyway. My opinions/posts are not directed at you. Please keep that in mind. Om mani padme hung.
tk
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In the future when the Dalai lama/Tibetan Govt's policies against Dorje Shugden fades and it will, then people will say the Dalai lama was wrong as he has set himself up for this. Just like when Dalai Lama said Trijang Rinpoche was wrong for disseminating this practice. Well he 'allowed' the current Trijang Rinpoche to practice again, so he left the imprints to be labelled wrong in the future.
We say Dalai lama is wrong. He says Trijang Rinpoche is wrong. We say Trijang Rinpoche is right. He allows Trijang Rinpoche (current) to practice. The tide will change. When it does, Shugden will be bigger than ever and his imputed negative reputations of the past will dissolve into emptiness as planned. I will not base my practice of Dorje Shugden at the expense of berating the Dalai Lama even slightly. Dalai Lama is doing what he is doing, but it will not deter me or make me dislike him. The ban will fade. The Dalai Lama's words against Shugden will be forgotten in near future and distant future.
tk
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TK Thank you for your thoughts and what you've shared from your heart.
It is very unbiased and I am certain many who are confuse, like myself, about this whole situation will appreciate very much to be more at peace with the possibility of DL and DS working hand in hand. Why because it is less agressive and extreme, good guy/bad guy, black/white all is very subjective in deed. Whatever WSS has done it is no doubt of great courage and we don't question their motivation. However this website does not belong to WSS and it's purpose a non-biased one as stated clearly in its Mission. Hence there are people of different opinions who have discovered this wonderful non militant site and decided to join as it seem fairer here to voice out our views without being called an idiot.
Dear friends, I am new too and my thoughts are along the lines of TK. Why because we trust in our Lamas and our Lamas have all in one way or another received teaching from Trijang Rinpoche and the Dalai Lama. Condemning the Dalai Lama is equivalent to condemning all Lineage Lamas and our Lamas too, so I cannot and will not. And if we say that we should only act upon what we perceive with our 5 senses then I guess there is no point in following Buddha for his teachings encourages us to think the impossible - Buddhahood. Then why even follow of trust in a Gurur?
"The noobs" are people who chooses to not pick up the stone and throw, is that so wrong? If we do that how are we different from those who persecuted our Shugden brothers and sisters.
Thank you TK again, your thoughts makes me have more conviction in Dharma, faith in our protector Dorje Shugden, and trust in our Gurus including His Holiness. That is for me at least :)
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Oh please now, could you really pretty please do not use the "god has a bigger picture, whereas I'm just an unknowing idiot" -argument. It is so lame. And especially, it does not work very well in Buddhism. If you claim that the evil done is not necessarily evil, because maybe you do not have the moral apparatus in your heart to make the judgement, or the necessary information in your brains, you are removing yourself from the humanity, you are placing yourself into the flocks of animals. If you claim that you are not capable of making moral judgements on your own, then there is no Buddhism for you. Really.
The argument or existential position of "God knows the best" or "the Party knows what we need" or "the Dalai will save us all" is no argument or position at all. It is merely the empty words of an automaton. It is not even existence. You could as well not exist. Not even you would miss you. To be, is to be human, and to be human is to be moral, and that requires moral judgement which is not given from outside, from the God or the Party. If you are, then you must be you. There is no other way. And as a human, you cannot say that an evil today is a big blessing tomorrow.
ZP- It is becoming increasingly pleasurable to read your posts here, thank you....
or to put it in noobspeak... wow! Gosh, ZP, this confirms exactly what I have always believed about our precious protector!!!!! ;D ;D
btw, I really enjoyed your rather dark portrayal of what will happen after the passing of the current Tibetan Hegemon. Great implicit advice, cut yourself off from the floundering Tibetan union of politics and religion, or it will drag you to the depths along with it. Could you repost it here or remind me how to find it? I want to read it again and then send it too a friend...
it used to be you could find the substantive posts you had read here, but now the forum is clogged with so much miserable nonsense, it takes a long time...
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As i said earlier - i like the logic of TK's post. What i think is interesting is that it doesn't really matter who is right or wrong right now because eventually the truth will come out... and when Dorje Shugden practice becomes mainstream and accepted, which i believe it will be, then we will know whose theories was right after all. In the meantime, it is not necessary to cast judgement over what other people say - if we do not share the same view, it's fine to agree to disagree. Respecting differences is how we create harmony with each other - and i believe this is the heart of Dharma.
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• May 14, 1995 – Tsangpa Oracle Prophesy I
"It is important that Tibetans should observe their commitments (dam.tsig) which is their obligation. Particularly, the issue of Gyalchen [Dorje Shugden] is a bad omen. In this direction, we, the formless, are aware that it does not harbor good.
Ha ha! This sounds so fake! "we, the formless....." Goodness...!
Imagine Je Tsongkhapa consulting oracles in this way! Absurd!
People, break your addiction to Tibeatna politics oracles, tulkus and ridiculous fantasies about how protectors function!
Nevertheless, it is our serious concern that there needs to be strict adherence to the wishes of His Holiness and internal unity. Whether it be the People's Deputies or an ordinary Tibetan, it is unacceptable for anyone to engage in partisan politics.
really now.
Dear everyone,
This article above is very powerful. I will share my thoughts and comments on the article. It is what I have believed also for the last decade and a half, and it concurs with the prophesy from Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche in the late 70's. Which is in the future, it may look like Dalai lama is at odds with Dorje Shugden, but in actuality they are helping eachother to make Buddha Dharma grow in the world.
unfortunately, this eruption of power politics into the BuddhaDharma shames all Buddhists, and decreases respect for the Dharma worldwide. People as disgusted with this.
1. Dorje Shugden acts in the Bodhisattva manner accepting criticisms, hate campaigns and the 'destruction' of his practice. Why? Because it serves a bigger purpose for the overall survival of Buddhism in the world for the future. Why? It is easier to resurrect or do a Lazarus on Dorje Shugden in the future when the smoke clears, than it would be for the Dalai lama. The Dalai lama is a man and controlled by media, opinions, ppl, circumstances. But Dorje Shugden is a formless entity that can 'rise' above all of that very quickly when the time is right.
This is just a theory. In general, you have no idea if Dorje Shugden accepts any of this. What do you expect, that he might log on to this forum and state his opinion? Are you waiting on baited breath for the next revelation from an oracle, whose pronouncements you cannot verify? A protector can only work with the karma of those who are involved, that is why the ridiculous statements you read here and elsewhere as to Dorje Shugden's action have no relevance whatsoever. You simply don't know what they are, as you are not able to recognize his blessings and emanations.
2. Whenever Dorje Shugden takes trance in any of the oracles, he never criticizes the Dalai Lama and in fact tells the audience to always withhold criticism towards Dalai Lama. He can say nothing about the Dalai Lama and just keep quiet. Dorje Shugden is well known to not answer questions that has little meaning, insignificant, or unacceptable to the listener. When questions are presented to him through the oracle, he often skips through questions that should not be answered at this time or has no meaning.
Again, you have no idea what is actually going on here, this is all mere supposition, attractive only to those who already subscribe to this theory.
Please don't bother with "the HIGH LAMAS trust the oracles..." most keep quiet and go along for a variety of reasons. The stories about the thirteenth and fourteenth Dalai Lamas taking disastrous advice form oracles abound, so it is clear that many if not most of these lamas are just as in the dark as the rest of us.
It's time for Tibeatan Buddhism to grow up, and what we are experiencing now are the growing pains. Bye bye, oracles, it was fun, but unreliable and ultimately destructive, while it lasted.....
3.All the the destruction happening against him, he never makes comments, speaks against nor advices undharmic actions. Because it can all be fully reversed in a short time when the time is right.
see above.
4. Temporarily Dorje Shugden will accept the name AS THE CAUSE FOR THE LOSS OF TIBET, OR THE CAUSE WHY TIBET CANNOT BE REGAINED BACK, but in the end truth will arise. Dorje Shugden will reveal the true plot which Trijang Rinpoche already hinted at in the late 70's. ( I fold my hands to Trijang Rinpoche and prostrate my full body to Him. I offer my head as a stepping block for his feet. I truly have confidence in this great being. )
Very romantic. I.... uh...offer my heart and blood to the glorious radiant blazing splendour of the impossibly magnificent uh... inconceivable gurus uh...
we ALL have confidence in Trijang Rinpoche here.
“Even these days, some suspect those who rely upon and propitiate Gyalchen (Dorje Shugden) of conjuring ghosts, but it is the babbling talk of those who don’t understand the definitive meaning.” - Trijang Dorjechang
Have some confidence in that.
the rest, again is just your supposition. "then later on, the DL will apologize and the protector practice will be raised as a victory banner for all beings...."
yeah, maybe. I prefer to work towards it rather than pretending the celestials will take care of everything if I just keep quiet and stay in my place.....
5. Dorje Shugden is strong enough to carry such a burden. Dorje Shugden practitioners are resilient enough to not abandon his practice during this crisis. Both Dorje Shugden and his true followers will not abandon eachother no matter what is said and done temporarily at this time. Both can carry the burden. I personally do not dislike, hate the Dalai Lama but have confidence in him and my own sacred protector Dorje Shugden. I choose to believe and take refuge in Trijang Rinpoche's prophecy. The other two options of hating Dalai lama and abandoning Dorje Shugden are not open to me nor would I choose any of the two options.
tk, come on now.
It is not appropriate to pretend you have not seen yourself the destruction this politicking has casued. Monks in their 70's and 80's weeping openly and saying "I wish I had died before this happened" is just the tip of the iceberg. Families destroyed, moasteries ripped in half, brother turned against brother, people burned and stoned out of their homes......
I'm glad you have been able to keep up with your practice, but it needs to be admitted that many who were not as strong (or as far from the reach of mobs incited by the TGIE) as you have had their spiritual and material lives destoyed.
The options of hating the DL or giving up the protector are not open to any of us here, we are Mahayana Buddhists. Please see beyond the extremes and realize there are more than two options here, and please try to see that you can speak out against injustice without hate. It might be worth a separate discussion as to why this is so difficult for some here to understand..... addiction to social approval? Fear of their own deeply repressed rage? Sentimental compassion that can only accept "nice" talk and smilies as compassionate? I'm sure there are many possibilities.....
6. Why would Dalai Lama act, talk and promote so many contradictory actions that makes himself look unstable. Unless it was on purpose. I believe that truly. He is not stupid.
He may be stupid, he may not be stupid, personally, I have no idea. It is entirely possible that a man who has been prostrated to since he was a baby and has no apparatus to deal with those who disagree with him, might become ...angry? Ypour precious oracle above said that "Gyalwa Rinpoche became angry...." In such a situation. Everyone knows that the angry man makes many bad decisions and acts against the interest of all.
Maybe he is lost in a fantasy about Tibet and himself that he cannot find his way out of. Really, no-one here knows.
Why would he make so many contradictory statements and actions that make him look unstable? \
Maybe he is unstable.
Personally, that would be my guess, but again, who knows? No point trying to divine a hiugher purpose based on your own confused judgements (no insult intened, these judegements are common to all us Samsara types...)
7. If Kache Marpo has 'destroyed' lamas/ppl/practitioners in the past for breaking the samaya or polluting the yellow hat teachings, then why is Samdhong Rinpoche, Kashag, Kalons, Ministers, Kunga Tara, and even the Dalai Lama himself are spared? Unless there is a much bigger soup brewing.
If you take everytime you can't explain something as evidence of your theory, soon you will be living in a hall of mirrors. There are countless reasons this could be the case, for example Dorje Shugden ( and Kache MArpo) don't kill people. "What about the yellow book?" you ask? Perhaps it was meant for a certain reason. Perahps it was superstitious nonsense, who knows? Not me, not you.
It seems to me the only soup that is brewing is the one you are making of your own ingredients, and it doesn't smell very appetizing to me....
8. Nechung is the one who requested Dulzin Drakpa Gyeltsen to arise as a uncommon Protector to protect Nagarjuna's view as embodied within Lama Tsongkapa's lineage only 350 years ago. Why would the same Nechung be talking the opposite. Unless there was a larger plan between Dorje Shugden, Dalai lama and Nechung. Seems like a hopeful fantasy? Well to many more, the idea of a dharma protector or Dorje Shugden themselves are fantasies made up by the Tibetan Lamas.
Oh dear.
Is it the same Nechung, tk? From where in the world would you derive information to that effect? Do you really feel confident that you know what Nechung thinks? maybe a local wordly spirit has entered the Nechung oracle, of which tere are apparently many, some more stable than others? Belief in Oracles and Tulkus in an uncritical way will be the end of Tibetan Buddhism in this world.
yes, it seems like a hopeful fantasy, very much so.
The idea that there are Protectors seems like a hopeful fantasy to some, I have no doubt, but the idea that something seems like a hopeful fantasy to someone somewhere has no bearing whatsoever as to wheter or not it is true. I'm sure there are people that believe that the moon landing is a hopeful fantasy. and yet, it happened, didin't it?
Tk, do you get my point? This is very very poor logic, and should embarass someone of your intelligence, evidneced elsewhere on this forum over and over again.
9.If Dorje Shugden is so powerful (which he is), why doesn't he do something to stop all this. Perhaps it is not time to 'stop' all this yet. In fact, Dorje Shugden is putting his followers through 'hell and back' (excuse me) and we have to just take it. Yes we will 'take' it. There has to be a much bigger game plan. Dorje Shugden takes the blame, Dalai lama works hard to make the Buddha Dharma grow while all the elite lamas and teachers are young.
Once again, this is a theory, not at all a fact, as you state above. Why doesn't he do something to stop this? Again, please stop tjhinking that Dharma protectors function like superman, flying in to save us. Why didn't the protectors stop Langdarma? Why didn't the protectors stop the moghuls from wiping out Buddhism in india? Why didn't the protectors stop the Chinese? why don't the protectors do my laundry? we seriously need to outgrow this type of thinking.
. If Dalai lama is so powerful (which he is), why doesn't he just do a binding ritual or fire puja himself and rid the planet/samsara of this horrible demented being called Jamgon Gyelway Tensung Gyelpo Dorje Shugden. And then stop spending so much time, money, heartaches, energy, resources to keep going against Dorje Shugden???!!! Just get rid of him ONCE AND FOR ALL. THE END. Because the Dalai Lama cannot destroy a being who has actualized the complete path of Guhyasamaja in both completion/generation stages or in other words a Buddha. Dalai lama cannot destroy Buddha Dorje Shugden who is one with Guhyasamaja and the 32 deities of his mandala are the same 32 deities as in Guhyasamaja's entourage.
now that actually makes some sense. He doesn't bind Dorje Shugden because he can't. IOt seems he believes he can bind the followers of Dorjke Shugden using his honeyed speech and his political power, and he will be right if many here have there way and get everyone to adopt this magical view that we are all pals nad that noone should disagree.
So for the bigger purpose, the Dalai Lama has TO PUT THE BLAME OF ALL THE ILLS OF TIBET'S MISFORTUNE ONTO DORJE SHUGDEN WHO IS STRONG ENOUGH TO SHOULDER THIS. Dorje Shugden plays the bad guy for now.
This is all politics, in fact no one blamed the DL for the loss of Tibet, his followers and most of the rest of the world are GaGa over this strange man. It is a false premise leading to a false conclusion, tailor-made to support an impoverished nicey-nice position. the intellignet would never go for this unless under the sway of some deep emotional need.
If it is blamed onto the Dalai Lama, it would spoil his reputation to spread dharma on the global scale which is what he is doing now. Planting seeds of dharma on the global scale, ripe for the young lamas to take over later as well as Dorje Shugden.
You vastly overestimate the Dalai Lama's ability to spread the Dharma, he only spreads tibetan politics. All of those who like the DL's teachings that I know are diletannte's, they have no actual teacher and no lineage.
The ills of Tibet are not Dalai lama or Dorje Shugden's fault, but the Tibetan ppls' own fault.
Agreed
Sounds cliche, but it is true and easier to get through the storm with this way of thinking.
it does sound cliche, and I think this view directly contributes to the loss of Dharma in this world. No offense intended, I think most who hold this view are well-meaning, as I was when I believed this stuff. The Dalai Lama himself helped me out of that one.
10. If Dalai lama loses his reputation because he is the 'cause' for the loss of Tibet, then it would stain his reputation greatly and that would hinder to say the least, his promotion of the BuddhaDharma around the world. No lama of any tradition can match the skills, the persona, the knowledge, the title, and the charisma of Dalai lama to spread Buddhism so far and wide around the world.
Oh wow. Really? Ot my view, noone can match how skilfull the DL is at destroying Buddhism around the world. huh. I guess we see this one differently. I centainly agree that to superficial appeaances, the DL speads Dhama, but this dharma is contaminated by his abandonment and excoriation of lineage, so this dharma is stillborn, sterile, and inert.
11. Why can't the Tibetan Govt and various Monasteries destroy Dorje Shugden through binding rituals? Because they have tried and it shows the power of Dorje Shugden purposely. Hence to keep this power in mind, when later ppl will remember this power when they re-adopt Dorje Shugden's practice later. To leave a mark in ppl's minds that DORJE SHUGDEN CANNOT BE DEFEATED OR DESTROYED.
Yes, they are showing Dorje Shugden's power by destroying the spiritual and material lives of thousands and thousands of people. This view is deeply unkind and saddens my heart.
12. Why is Trijang Rinpoche allowed to practice Dorje Shugden if it harms the cause of Tibet and brings danger to the Dalai lama's life? Because it leaves a mark for the future, to bring up the point that Dorje Shugden does not hinder Tibet or Dalai Lama. These are small traces of hints left by the Dalai Lama for the SURVIVAL OF DORJE SHUGDEN. Someone has to take the blame. That is samsara.
Why did Trijang Chogtrul run away to Vermont and disrobe? The Dalai Lama only ever intended to let TR practice for a while, he states his intention to check again in the future (the Omniscient one gets out his doughballs aagin....) . I'm sure for the young lama this was ominous enough. Everyone can see wherer the DL is headed with this, why not you?
Traces of hints? You are surely grasping at straws. No need to did around in the dirt for traces when the truth fills the whole world.
13. Why does Dorje Shugden himself 'SIT ON THE FENCE?' Meaning, he says on one hand to respect and follow what the Dalai Lama says, but on the other hand, he told the Shar Gaden Monks that if their motivation for opening Shar Gaden was for the growth and preservation of the lineage, then it will be auspicious in the future. Doesn't that look contradictory. C'mon, which one is it Dorje Shugden? Clear it for us. So if we were to follow what the Dalai Lama says, why open Shar Gaden and Serpom Monastery? If we were to follow what Dorje Shugden says, then why be on this forum as he says to respect the Dalai lama always.
For you, your lama and lineage is Dorje Shugden. No need to search around the internet for scraps. the way you lay it out above, either we need to be against the opening of Shar G and Serpom N, or get off the forum.
Yet again, pointing out someones political mistakes is not necessarily respecting them. Even friends point out the flaws of friends as an act of love when they see that those flaws will destroy them. This is like that.
Should we open Shar Gaden which 'opposes' the Dalai Lama or should we listen to the Dalai lama and abandon Dorje Shugden's practice? Even the great Dorje Shugden sounds contradictory.
you have confused yourself. Do you really think Dorje shugden said "listen to the Dalai Lama and abandon the practice of Dorje Shugden?" You seem to be all tangled up in your hopes.
Why does Dorje Shugden continuously take trance and give advice even to those who do not give their allegiance up to Dalai lama while practicing Dorje Shugden at the same time? Doesn't that damage the samaya of the individual with Dorje Shugden or with the lama who initiated them into Dorje Shugden's practice? Whichever way you look at it, you damage the samaya with your guru or protector.
Focus less on oracles andf this will be less confusing for you.
Zong Rinpoche (previous), Dagom Rinpoche, Yongyal Rinpoche,Geshe Tendar, current Trijang Rinpoche, current Zong Rinpoche, Geshe Rabten, current Pabongka, Gonsar Rinpoche, the oracle monks, Gangchen Rinpoche, Lama Yeshe, Geshe Tsultrim Gyeltsen, etc etc all took teachings from the 14th Dalai Lama, let's not forget, at once time or another. So if we have taken teachings from the above lamas, then 14th Dalai lama is also our lineage lama which we must respect. Logical?
not logical. What do you do when you have conflicting advice from your gurus? This happens. You need to follow your root guru, and in doing so, you keep all your comittments. If one were to follow your suggested 'logical' style of doing things, one would surely be forced to break samaya. This would render the Vajrayana meaningless.
Since we say the Dalai lama must respect our lineage lamas such as Pabongka, then we must also reverse the situation and respect the Dalai lama as our lineage lama. So either way, the system is set up for you to 'lose'. If that is the case, there must be a MUCH BIGGER PICTURE that current infractions with our lineage lamas can be repaired later FOR THE BIGGER PICTURE.
tk, one's respect for one's root guru, and the need to follow the DL's advice because some of our teachers (for example Trijang Rinpoche) were present at the DL's teachings are completely different. If my teacher got the empwerment of Heruka from trijang Rinpoche, who got it from Je Pabonkha etc etc, and the DL gave a teaching on the six perfections (that he initially received from Trijang Ripnpoche, incidentally), this does not make DL my lineage Lama, and can never in any way override my responsibility to keep my heart commitments to my spritual guide.
the fact that this 'contradiction' makes it seem to you that some mysterious thing is going on and your conclusion is that the DL is a good friend for slandering your lineage lamas makes me think you need to further your education.
After all with or without the Dalai Lama/Dorje Shugden current state affairs, we were doing a great job collecting negative karma, breaking commitments, and generally creating the causes for our personal samsaras to remain intact and strong on our own.
Ha ha ! Finally we agree unreservedly! i'm glad I have perservered!
Yes the Dalai lama does look like he contradicts himelf always. But so does Dorje Shugden.
only according to the unreliable.
Yes, it is nearly cooked.
It seems I've lost my appetite.
It is best to have respect for the Dalai lama and keep our practices towards Dorje Shugden steady.
Whatever the case, if we go to Dalai lama's camp or we go to Dorje Shugden's camp, we go against lineage lamas.
Utterly false as shown above. How could you break samaya by practicing the protector of your guru's words?!?
So best is to keep an equilibrium by thinking things out logically, following the law of cause and effect, engage in our practices to develop attainments within our continuum. With the great attainment we win freedom totally and no disprespect intended, but we won't need Dalai Lama, Buddha, Dorje Shugden or anyone. And that is their original intention.
lovely. I think we all agree there.
I have stated my thoughts at this time and I SINCERLEY HOPE THIS WILL BRING PEACE/UNDERSTANDING TO THE MANY PRACTITONERS THAT VISIT THIS GREAT WEBSITE. With my thoughts, I wish to offend no one, or be right. It is just my attempt to think and reason things out at this time when no many other options are available. Again, I will NEVER GIVE UP MY DORJE SHUGDEN COMMITMENTS AND TO THE LAMAS WHO GAVE ME THE PRACTICES.
yeah! me too!
Nor will I demean and hate His Holiness the Dalai Lama. I will not hate those against Dorje Shugden and forgive them.
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I won't either, unless demeaning the DL means disagreeing with him either publically or privately, when he says harmful an hurtful and destructive things. In that case, no one is immune from criticism.
Much success to all,
Tk
Thanks, same to you! :)
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Wow!
Look how real Dorje Shugden is as a Buddha. Even from all the bad rumours which has been spread about him, his only concern is for others. Hence, his advice for the people not to speak ill of the Dalai Lama speaks volumes of how great a being he is!
Homage to Lord Shugden
HN
I have many marooned clothed friends in Gaden and many senior monk friends. The senior monks are already now aged into their 70's related that Trijang Rinpoche mentioned not to lose faith in DL and DS because in the future it would seem as if they are against eachother. They are there in Gaden with Trijang Rinpoche, when Trijang Rinpoche said this.
Time it was said: Late 1970's after composing His volume on Dorje Shugden in order to preserve the lineage after He has passed away.
Place it was said: Gaden Monastery.
Audience: close students who are senior monks now in Gaden. Intended time for the advice to be remembered is after the death of Trijang Rinpoche. And if we need clarification after Trijang Rinpoche has passed away, we should refer to the volume Trijang Rinpoche has so kindly written for us to preserve Dorje Shugden's lineage. This volume is scanned in and available on this website (thank you so much webmaster).
Time it is referred to: Trijang Rinpoche meant this prophecy to be fulfilled after his death. He has written this volume to preserve Dorje Shugden's lineage as it would seem that DL and DS will be at odds after his death and he would not be around to clarify. So he leaves this volume on Dorje Shugden written by himself for the future generations. Dalai Lama was aware he is composing this volume. Trijang Rinpoche mentioned during that time in the future not to lose faith in both DL and DS.
To add to that, when the ban first happened in the 90's, Dulzin took trance of Choyang Kuten in Gaden. The audience were Jangtze monks who asked Dulzin to do something regarding the ban. Dulzin replied, to be steadfast in their practice simultaneously not to say negative words against Dalai Lama. That in the future, the ppl who gave up their Ds practice and berated Ds WILL COME TO DULZIN AND APOLOGIZE.
Both the information above was passed to me by senior monks of Gaden.
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Dear TK, Sorry for answering here your last message addressed to me, I don´t even know where to find it since the rythm of posts has been so intense in the last hours.
Just to tell you that of course I would like to share with you a cup of tea and have a good laugh. I thank you for your sympathy, but when I spoke of shame I didn´t mean that I suffered any personal shame myself, on the contrary, I´ve always felt very happy and saintly "proud" of belonging to this holy lineage; rather that one experiences a type of shame for the person who does something wrong, particularly if one has to speak about it.
I realize that I don´t have a relaxed attitude when I see Dharma being destroyed. And for me there's no way to help in any way anybody who is destroying Dharma, let alone finding justifications that make things worse, confusing innocent people about the most basic of the Buddha´s actions, which is to show beings what to keep and what to abandon.
No matter what, I do understand the reasons others might have for doing what you and the Noobs are doing: to twist Dharma principles to justify the Dalai Lama´s actions. I understand the reasons, particularly in your case and the case of Tibetans, I understand that you want to preserve the icon of your identity as a nation.
We Westerners have an old way of dealing with these type of things: we distinguish between attacking a tenet, an action, an attitude, and attacking a person. We don´t favor attacking the person, it´s called to go "ad hominem", to go against the human being. But we do retain the right to not agreeing and to attacking the actions. Difficult, but I find it quite wise.
Obviously many people do not act according to this pattern, thus the Noobs preaching against our supposed hatred against the Dalai Lama. Or some people actually expressing hatred against him. For the most part, the people in this website do not hate the Dalai Lama but do not agree with his actions. And his actions entailing the persecution of others, well, we have not only the right but the moral obligation to help the persecuted.
So we find it quite strange that a bunch of self proclaimed practitioners of the Protector come here as a group and try to destroy our actions aimed to protect the victims of the Dalai Lama. We might try to understand their intentions and even accept that they might be good intentions. But we disagree with their purpose.
This having been said, it´s clear that there is no debate possible. I don´t see in the new people (I think Noobs is short for newbies) the slightest intention of having a debate. A debate follows the path of reasoning. They are following, according to what Ensapa said, the instructions of a Lama. The path of faith in this case seems to preclude reasoning. So there is no way we can debate.
I have great appreciation for your kindness, TK. Thank you.
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Dear A Friend,
I fold my hands to you and I thank you for your beautiful message which I appreciate and it has touched my heart deeply.
Let me make some things clear to you please:
1. You have every right to be angry with the tenants and policies of the Dalai lama. What happened is very painful and very shocking. It hurts me too. I believe in the prophecy of Trijang Rinpoche that Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden are working hand in hand, but that DOES NOT MEAN I DON'T FEEL DISTRESSED, IN PAIN, HAVE ANGUISH, CONFUSED AND FEEL ISOLATED. I know Dorje Shugden is a Bodhisattva and his strength not to retaliate is what shows me who he is. My faith in him grows even more. I feel everything you and everyone else feels because I am just an ordinary person who met the Dharma and trying my best to practice.
2. You have every right to express your views and I do read them and contemplate it very much. I don't think negatively of your views nor feel bad about reading them. I do not judge your views, but take intense interest to learn more.
3. Other ppl on this forum are feeling what you feel is perfectly natural and alright. I pray that this horrible ban can be changed or just disappear. All of you/us do not deserve this.
4. I have no ill feelings towards you and other ppl who express their anger toward Dalai Lama. I understand deeply how you feel. Betrayal.
5.I am not on this forum to in ANY WAY INSULT YOU OR ANYONE ELSE. Why? Because we are the same lineage, same practice, same lamas, same protector. I am on your side. I have always been on your side and will remain that way. We have the same purpose.
6. I am not posting things to justify what the Dalai lama is doing. I am offering another view to perhaps help heal the pain, betrayal and disappointment. My posts are not meant to counter you or others who feel like you in any way. I do not wish to further the hurt you, or berate you or put your feelings down. You do not deserve that for all that you have gone through. Dharma is not easy in the world today to practice.
7. Whatever I post is not following the instructions of my lamas, but from my own dedication to my lamas and Dorje Shugden. Dorje Shugden has helped me so much. I have many stories. It disturbs me deeply when Bodhisattvas like Pabongka, Trijang, Gangchen, Yongyal, Gonsar, Zong, Zemey, Dagom Rinpoches and other great beings are dragged through the dirt. I do not approve of that at all. I will counter that at every stop, but in a way that makes the anti-shugden ppl's minds calm down also in the end or die trying.
8. I will follow all of you in any way except the slander of the Dalai lama. Why? Dorje Shugden in trance through the oracles have advised us not to do so. It is on that reason and that reason alone I will not. I love Dorje Shugden tremendously. I can give my life for him if need be. So I will follow his instructions as long as I breathe. That is my reason and that is ok for me. I do not speak for anyone else because there are many factors involved, I understand.
9. I salute you and the others' strength, tenacity, stability, and perserverance in the Dharma during these difficult times. I fold my hands and bow to you and all of you humbly. Please never stop working, foruming, posting, writing, speaking for the cause of Dorje Shugden. He will prevail by the power of truth, karma and resultant karma in the near future. We will not be like the poor israelites who wandered in the Sinai desert for many more decades after recieving the covenant (ten commandments) from Moses on Mt Sinai.
10. I understand completely that you are distinguishing between attacking a tenant, an action, an attitude and the person. I understand you are attacking the actions. I fully understand and MAY I PLEASE SAY THAT I APPRECIATE THAT VERY VERY VERY MUCH AND THANK YOU AND ALL THE OTHERS. Really thank you.
Please forgive me if I have offended you of which I have no intention to from the beginning. I very much look forward to the forum daily/or as much as possible although I do have a busy schedule, but doing the forum is like doing my sadhanas/commitments daily. I feel something is missing if I don't.
I look forward to meeting all of you on the forum for many years into the future and learn so much from all your posts daily.
I truly feel indebted to all of you to spend so much time for our cause.
A friend, again, I would like to thank you for your beautiful post to me. I understand what you have written and appreciate it. Please keep in mind, whatever I will further write in the future is NEVER TO ATTACK YOU OR ANYONE, PLEASE REMEMBER THAT. It is not to attack your work nor put you or anyone down. I cannot do such a thing. It is beyond me.
I will write in my style for berating of Dorje Shugden to stop with my views and you will write for the same reasons with your views. Both our views are necessary as the audience is vast. Minds are attracted to different styles and approaches. You are not wrong. Your intent is excellent. Your motivation is excellent and your efforts will bear results.
Thank you again, I offer incense, serkym, and a candle to Dorje Shugden for you today. I request Dorje Shugden to bless you further for longer life, further growth and further realizations.
Much sincerity,
Tk
P.S. I will post this at other other threads where we have communicated so you can access it easily.
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This topic resounds with excellent comments and observations.
I find it exceptional when people speak from their hearts supported by their intellect brings clarity to all if we simply mirror Je T'SongKhapa and his advice to Friends.
The Young Tulkus and Lamas join the host of Qualified Teachers, some I suspect speak with us on the forum.
Generating Love 24/7 without any effort. What a wonderment to experience in our daily moments.
Energy attract energy and this forum is but a stepping stone to Wisdom's Gate.
I am certain there is a Big Picture. Perhaps the courts will act as a catalyst?
Perhaps something else? I just have a hard time with all of this ending with a HoHo HO! I was just fooling!
We know how we think this looks, the question is can we convince them that they are the ones who are playing the fools and will be found out somehow or another. Truth is like water and finds a way out!
I know I am not the one who is lying.I hate to point fingers, but I am fairly certain it is they or he that misrepresents the facts and places demands for others to do as he says.
So time is not on his side, there must be a resolution in this life time, it must end. This has gone on long enough and now it time for it to end once and for all.
With folded hands, I implore the Dalia Lama to cease and desist persecting the Dorje Shugden People.
"with folded hands",now this was a verse that touched my heart and simply showed me another way to reach across the digital waves to subdue the storms of my samsaric mind, and that brings the yawl of this majestic Sloop of Mind safely into port. Yes! words have profound affect and we all need to use them wisely.thanks tk,afriend,beggar and Trinley,EM,Mohani and on and on and all of you have taught me alot. It has made me a calmer person, you should have seen me before! and I smile more everyday at strangers on the street.
Most importantly,I smile at me.
tk, I'll try harder not to offend anyone with my speech.
I have learned so very much here over the last few years from others solid advice and words of compassion,and patience that has been shown is worth more than all the gold weight in the world.
I've only briefly visited with two other dharma friends in ten years and longer than that since I've lived with the Kunten Lama.I might be a little rusty, things get dusty here in the Western Deserts along the Wasatch Mountains.Prostrating before monumental mountains of Red Standstone visualizing Vajrayoginni etched within the peaks and valleys of her redstone mountains crowned with Snow Caps is a beauty to behold. Truly one ascends to the Dakinni Heavens In Southern Utah. Maybe Practioners will come and share the Sangha.This would be nice to have friends in the Wilderness. I miss others and laughter and humour of smiling faces.But the Protector put me where I could find Peace.So I exiled myself to the Western Deserts and made a new me.
8. I will follow all of you in any way except the slander of the Dalai lama. Why? Dorje Shugden in trance through the oracles have advised us not to do so. It is on that reason and that reason alone I will not. I love Dorje Shugden tremendously. I can give my life for him if need be. So I will follow his instructions as long as I breathe. That is my reason and that is ok for me. I do not speak for anyone else because there are many factors involved, I understand. "
"May the great King Dorje Shugden and his four powerful emanations peaceful, increasing, controlling and wrathful, bring All of you the greatest success because your hearts and motivation are pure for the Dharma.. ."
katela
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Dearest dearest TK,
Your kindness is one of the best things that have found their way to this Forum.
Believe me, I don´t know directly of any sayings in trance about not slander the Dalai Lama, but I totally agree with those sayings. I´ve always wanted to keep silent about what the DL did. I´ve started writing against it because of the dangers that our monks and many lay people endured and you have to agree with me that any follower of the Protector has in some degree the characteristic of a protector and that´s what happened, we have wanted to protect those who were defenseless in the world against one who is tremendously powerful.
At least and thank heavens I never had to defend myself, but others.
Also I need to defend the Dharma when I see it being distorted, that´s the reason I keep writing against any praise explicit or implicit of what was done against our common Guru Trijang Rinpoche and our Deity. I write to defend Dharma from misunderstandings, not to slander the Dalai Lama. It´s very important to do this for the future generations, we cannot allow them --the still unborn-- to receive as truth or as a good thing what is not.
I sincerely pray for the Dalai Lama´s long life and for a change in his mind before he leaves this world.
I´m always happy to have your voice around.
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Until today, Dorje Shugden and his practitioners still do not have freedom to practice. I can accept that no matter what religion or faith that's out there, not everyone will agree and accept and it is fine.
Many are oppressed for what they believe. Not only being oppressed but their personal freedom and opportunities are being taken away so that Dorje Shugden practitioners give up their practices. I'm sure many of us have thought of why is Dorje Shugden the bad guy!
In this forum, the general position is that we do not focus on bashing any lamas. But strive to learn and see what is going on in an educated manner. This thread has been around a while but the points raised in here may be of interest to the many inquisitive minds who has joined this forum in the past year or so.
Do take a read and have a great weekend!
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Well, who could forget this post! Was doing a search for something else and came upon this. I thought I'd revive it for the benefit of new people.
Re-reading it a few years later, it feels good to read it again and have a rethink about the points raised by TK - and the very entertaining subsequent discussions on the subject. My question, this time round is why there even has to be a bad guy? What is there was no chakra at all? Would it not have worked if the Dalai Lama simply promoted the practice of Dorje Shugden as strongly as he has done for Kalachakra? Now, all he needs to do is to show up to give a Kalachakra initiation, and the venues are packed to the brim by people wishing for the practice. Kalachaka's tantra requires initiation and heavier commitments. Then the Buddhas remain at the level of Buddhas (as opposed to being called a spirit, as Shugden is often referred to now) and people feel that they are connecting to something good.
Think time: Do you really think the Dalai Lama would have been as successful in bringing the name Dorje Shugden out to the world if he left him as a good guy??
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Well, who could forget this post! Was doing a search for something else and came upon this. I thought I'd revive it for the benefit of new people.
Re-reading it a few years later, it feels good to read it again and have a rethink about the points raised by TK - and the very entertaining subsequent discussions on the subject. My question, this time round is why there even has to be a bad guy? What is there was no chakra at all? Would it not have worked if the Dalai Lama simply promoted the practice of Dorje Shugden as strongly as he has done for Kalachakra? Now, all he needs to do is to show up to give a Kalachakra initiation, and the venues are packed to the brim by people wishing for the practice. Kalachaka's tantra requires initiation and heavier commitments. Then the Buddhas remain at the level of Buddhas (as opposed to being called a spirit, as Shugden is often referred to now) and people feel that they are connecting to something good.
Think time: Do you really think the Dalai Lama would have been as successful in bringing the name Dorje Shugden out to the world if he left him as a good guy??
re-reading this post again made me realize how true of what did TK wrote a few years back, especially with the recent incident of the Dalai Lama giggling as he said that there were more and more Dorje Shugden practitioners from Singapore and Hong Kong. And also, the inception of Shar Ganden and Serpom who fearlessly continues to practice Dorje Shugden despite the ban and discriminations. they remain steadfast in their practice and did not give up in such dark times. Are these not the hallmark of a practitioner that will gain attainments? is this not the mark of the practitioner that will definitely perserve the lineage's integrity irregardless of what will happen? It is practitioners like these that will spread the Buddha's teachings fearlessly and without giving up.
The ban itself has raised so much more questions than answers and international media always pairs the story of Dorje Shugden with the Dalai Lama these days. Reporters wishing to dig dirt on the Dalai Lama bumps into the ban and spreads that around and people of these days are more attracted to gossip and negative news rather than to positive ones. To me, it is very clear where this is heading to and it will be soon before the ban is lifted as more and more people are aware of Dorje Shugden's existence and story.
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The ban on Dorje Shugden remains the lousiest ban at all times in terms of the results of reducing or stopping people from doing the practice anymore. If the Dalai Lama was in ernest like the spanish inquisition I think he would have actually drive much more people and monks into tremendous hardships and also to give up the practice. As the ban progressed the Practitioners who are loyal to their lamas and Dorje Shugden found ways to keep their practices and make themselves heard.
What is the biggest Buddhist organisation in the world now ? NKT and what does NKT support dorje shugden. And the dharma is being spread in the western countries like wildfire as a result of the protector. I like what Ensapa said about reporters trying to dig up stuff about the HHDL they eventually encounter Dorje Shugden , how skillful!
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I folded my hands to all Lama that encourage us to learn with their own skillful means. Even by sacrificing themselves, their reputations, etc. for the growth of Dharma.
If the purpose of implementing the ban at all is to do lazarus on Dorje Shugden, we should keep pointing out the obvious so these facts are imprinted in people’s mind:
• The ban is based on unfounded arguments that DS is a spirit and shorten the life of HHDL. How could that be?? It is stated clearly in Trijang Rinpoche’s biography that DS protects HHDL when he was fleeing Tibet and attempted murder by the Chinese. DS protected HHDL.
• The argument that DS is a spirit and the protest against the ban is about the issue of spirit worship and not religious persecution. DS is the incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen, an exceptional being that came from long line of incarnation of distinguished Lama including Sakya Pandita and Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen. These beings are enlightened. So to say DS is a spirit is the same as stating that degeneration from enlightened mind is possible.
• DS cannot be destroyed by rituals performed by High Lamas. The rituals to destroy DS have been performed since the time of 5th Dalai Lama. DS still cannot be destroyed. How many more rituals and how many more centuries should lapse until we believe the obvious that DS is not a spirit and the ban against DS is not the question of spirit worship.
If we do not reiterate these facts over and over again, the purpose of the ban and the bigger pictures to promote DS would not have been served. If we resorted in passivity and being politically correct and comfortable with the fact and adopt the attitude to let the ban ran its course because HHDL has a bigger picture, even “the bigger picture” mentioned above will not be served.
There were times when I stated the above arguments, I received criticism that I have adopted a wrong view against a very highly respected Lama, HHDL, so to say. But I really respected HHDL, I respected Trijang Rinpoche, and I believe in my own Lama. I believe that to speed up the removal of the ban, the facts should be put forth and we should continue to serve “the bigger picture” to promote DS and to argue for the removal of the ban.
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This is a fantastic post. Thank you TK. This is should made compulsory reading for all practicing Tibetan Buddhism so that all can truly understand the deep and compassionate mind of the Bodhisattvas.
I always had a nagging question in my mind i.e. why the ban on Dorje Shugden was called literally quite out of the sudden. This post made me think and my conclusion was that the Tibetans lost their country because of their collective karma but many would not agree to that. Instead they looked to HHDL to "do something" and pull a rabbit out of the hat. By the 90's it may have become clear to HHDL that the karma for the Tibetans to get their country back was over and a new set approach has to be taken.
The Dalai Lama's most important role was to spread the Buddhdharma throughout the world and HH had to be credible to everyone, especially to those who do not full understand the dynamics of group karma. There had to be a conjured up reason that everyone would understand. There had to be a scapegoat. And Dorje Shugden is not only able to shoulder this blame, it was most practical for Dorje Shugden to be the scapegoat. This is because HHDL must go on to be the authority and the ambassador of Buddhism and to spread it all over the world. Which he has. Nechung was and is still the State Oracle and it made no sense to undermine the divinity of Nechung.
Dorje Shugden was the only choice.
But right from the beginning and throughout, HHDL and even Nechung have made very confusing and contradictory statements about Dorje Shugden and in so doing, have very skillfully create the incentive for people to look further into Dorje Shugden. In this way, not only has the name of Dorje Shugden spread but increasingly people have come to see how baseless the accusations against Dorje Shugden are. Against the backdrop of all these persecutions and confusion, we see Dorje Shugden as truly the enlightened being he is.
It has been two years since this thread was started and HHDL has gone on to achieve tremendous milestones for Buddhism. Dorje Shugden's practice has also grown around the world. When we focus on the results and outcomes, instead of the smoke and mirrors we see the enlightened beings at work spreading the dharma.
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To me, the only reason why he has to be the 'bad' guy is very simple: there was a need for a good guy/bad guy role in order to benefit sentient beings. Most people in our current generation are more familiar with the christian duality of God and Satan, so perhaps, there is a need for Buddhism to do this in order to appear more presentable to these people and if a worldly protector is chosen to play this role, that protector may turn against Buddhism as he/she cannot handle the pressure. An enlightened Dharma protector that has not much affinity with us, once banned would stay that way for a long time. Hence, Dorje Shugden is the most suitable as he can withstand the pressure.
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Of course Dorje Shugden is not the bad guy. This is a very interesting article to read and to learn from.