dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: DharmaDefender on March 18, 2017, 10:00:07 AM
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Theres been an interesting development in the recent issue of the International Shugden Buddhist Community (ISBC) claiming that Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche is the false incarnation of the previous Trijang Dorjechang.
Over a week ago, the ISBC published a letter as a follow-up in their initial one. It basically highlighted the same point as their previous letter:- Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche is not the real reincarnation of the previous Trijang Rinpoche. This time, the reasoning given was that the current Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche was born before the previous Trijang Rinpoche passed away. This latest letter was based on information published on the Shar Gaden website.
On Facebook, the former secretary of Shar Gaden then attempted to clarify this by stating that when he was in office and publishing information onto the Shar Gaden website, he had got the date wrong and the 1981 year was published in error. It should have been 1982, and he is taking responsibility for this mistake.
His post attracted the attention of Kelsang Rabten, a teacher with the NKT and a prominent member of the previous International Shugden Community (ISC). In his comment, Kelsang Rabten said that Jampa Tharchin lying and that he was making up information to protect the so-called 'false' Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche.
You can see all of the information and exchanges below. Really, Im not on anyones side. Im just posting this here because it concerns two extremely prominent lamas and organisations of our movement and everyone needs to be kept abreast of whats going on with this issue.
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I don't know what benefit there is in, to put down a lineage lama.
And one not just recognized one high Lama but a whole slew of High Lamas who have supported Trijang Rinpoche and his organisation and people as well even by the 14th Dalai Lama. So by saying Trijang Rinpoche is fake, they are saying all the lamas and people who gave authenticity to Trijang Rinpoche are not enlightened and not realized.
Just look at all the works these high lamas do for the people and public, there is so much benefit, peace and enlightening influence for so many people, I refuse to believe that the High Lamas who recognized Trijang Rinpoche don't know what they are doing and have made a mistake about Trijang Rinpoche.
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I do not mean to be rude but who is anyone to question and judge what is right and what is wrong.
Scientifically and methodically there are formulas and equations which can be debated and proven right or wrong. However spiritually???? I doubt there is any right or wrong or lying. Isn't the ultimate truth emptiness.
I am grateful that Jampa Tharchin wrote about the error he made and it is up to us to just accept it or if not don't but there is really no necessity to accuse anyone of lying.
My Guru has always taught me never to criticise monastic disciplines as long as we are Buddhists, as it is about the vows and Dharma of Shakymuni Buddha that we hold supreme and anything else is secondary.
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So heres another development for everyone to be aware of. Theres been a couple of responses to Kelsang Rabtens comment that Jampa Tharchin is lying. Ones from a Lee VT? And the others from Jampa Tharchin himself.
I wonder what Rabtens next move is going to be and where all of this is going to go. Again, not taking sides but going purely on the basis of logic, Lee has a fair point. This is someones root guru were talking about. In the same way NKT isnt happy when other people accuse Geshe-la of not being a bona fide geshe and real monk, people are going to be upset when others accuse their root guru of not being the real reincarnation. Is this a case of not being able to take the punches they give? Or is it summit else?
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I feel Rabten is being very rude in his respond. He is a monk but the way he speak is is very unmonkly. He doesn't really have to use the word "lying". He may have his information, but others have their information too. Can we imagine if two groups of people keep accusing others are lying? Does this do any good to the situation? It only cause more disagreement and disharmony.
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I think it was magnanimous of Jampa Tharchin to claim responsibility of his mistake. No doubt this mistake of date had created a reason for this dissent but as practicing Buddhists, we should be forgiving and accept it was a mistake. Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche had been recognised by so many highly attained Lamas and protectors under trance. As such why disbelieve all these eminent Lamas and protector and publicly shame one who admitted and apologised for his mistake. In history, there had been known reincarnation while the Lama was still alive or more than one incarnations of the Lama existing. Is it appropriate to criticise the status of an attained Lama or those who officially recognised his incarnation?
I find it surprising that Kelsang Rabten of the International Shugden Buddhist Community (ISBC) being a practitioner of Tibetan Buddhism which is heavily dependent on Lama system and Protector practices, would so fiercely blame problems to arise from these. It seems to go in deviant practice. Is this a sign of no blessings from wrong views and criticising holy beings? I sincerely hope that it will not expand into poisoning people's mind towards the good works of Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche and his holy teachings. Om Benza Wiki Bitana Soha. May Dorje Shugden protector the precious Dharma and the pure lineage upholders.
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Why is this happening? Why the skirmishes? How come like this? What is the point? If NKT does not feel Trijang Rinpoche is not real, that is fine. Many people feel Buddha himself is not real. But why spew your opinions outside your centre. Let others have freedom to believe. NKT does not own the rights to who is real and not real. Keep your own NKT policies within NKT.
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Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and the NKT's snipe attack on Kyabje Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche, particularly on his authenticity, is a snipe attack on Dorje Shugden as the search for the then new incarnation of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche was spread-headed by the main assistant of the previous Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, Kungo Palden who consulted Dorje Shugden.
It is mostly likely also to get or to cause Kyabje Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche and his school to come out from their self-imposed silence on the Dorje Shugden issue, particularly at a time when Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche has "come of age".
Over to you Kyabje Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche...
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Kelsang Rabten's comment comes across very rude and inconsiderate. It must be an NKT thing to blame people for lying whenever they do not agree with the NKT's policies. It is amazing how such a huge & successful Buddhist organisation gives rise to unreasonable and angersome sangha like Kelsang Rabten and he is not the only one behaving like this. The fact is the previous Kyabje Zong Rinpoche oversaw the whole process of recognising the current Kyabje Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche, while Dorje Shugden through trance recognised the same candidate. Who is Kelsang Rabten to override their decisions? By commenting like this, Kelsang Rabten is reaffirming all negative impressions the Buddhist scene has on them. It is not a wise move at all.
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This has just been shared on the Shar Gaden Facebook. How embarrassing for them. They dont have access to their website, who loses control of their own website?? Someone really shouldve vetted their letter before posting it.
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It’s very scary to see someone can claim other Lama is fake unless they really have the clairvoyant to see but as far I know no other authentic Lama will do so. We don’t criticise other Lama following the Buddhist practice. Trijang Rinpoche was recognised by many lineage Lamas and if he is fake this directly telling that all other lineage lamas that recognised Trijang Rinpoche are wrong too. Then the teaching that passed down from the lineage lamas are wrong too. How severe it is with such claim.
We have our own Guru that we learn, appreciate, gratitude for and I believe no one like their Guru to be put down. We can just work from respecting each other so to their Guru. I see no benefit of pointing anyone Guru is fake or bad but what important is our spiritual practice bear fruits from the Guru we learn from and follow through all the way. Samaya is very important in our spiritual practice. We definitely unable to bear the consequences for one broken their guru samaya just because of what we said or influenced.
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We don't really need this. Why are we fighting amongst ourselves? It's very clear that Choktrul Trijang Rinpoche is the unmistaken incarnation as he was found by Kyabje Zong Rinpoche and confirmed by Dorje Shugden. Just because he is a lay lama does not lessen his knowledge, wisdom, compassion or spiritual attainments or make him less qualified to be a lama. Throughout history, there are many examples of lay lamas in Indian and Tibetan tradition.
In the Indian tradition, we have numerous Indian mahasiddhas and even the master Chandragomin was a lay lama. In the Tibetan tradition, we are talking about Marpa, Milarepa and so forth. Even recently, we have Serkong Dorje Chang in our own lineage who is told by very own lama to take up a consort to further his practice. I just find it ridiculous that this is used to denounce a lama and call him fake.
For some reason, I am sure NKT, especially the top brass knows this but they have another unspoken reason for this. Perhaps, it may be a strategic move to 'cajol' Trijang Rinpoche to do more. Whatever it is, it is very obvious that there is more than meets the eye.
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The latest development in all of this is a letter published by Geshe Sopa. So hes one of Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoches assistants and has been with Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche for 14 years. Hes now based at Trijang Buddhist Institute in Vermont in the States and their website prior to the revamp said that Geshe Sopa teaches and also maintains the physical aspects of the centre itself. So I would conclude hes well placed to comment on the ongoings of TBI, not to mention the Shugden movement itself considering hes been a very active member of the movement for years now. Geshe Sopa was one of the Tibetan monks who was often seen at the frontlines of the now-defunct International Shugden Community protests to ask His Holiness to lift the ban. I wonder whose going to speak up next.
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We don't really need this. Why are we fighting amongst ourselves? It's very clear that Choktrul Trijang Rinpoche is the unmistaken incarnation as he was found by Kyabje Zong Rinpoche and confirmed by Dorje Shugden. Just because he is a lay lama does not lessen his knowledge, wisdom, compassion or spiritual attainments or make him less qualified to be a lama. Throughout history, there are many examples of lay lamas in Indian and Tibetan tradition.
In the Indian tradition, we have numerous Indian mahasiddhas and even the master Chandragomin was a lay lama. In the Tibetan tradition, we are talking about Marpa, Milarepa and so forth. Even recently, we have Serkong Dorje Chang in our own lineage who is told by very own lama to take up a consort to further his practice. I just find it ridiculous that this is used to denounce a lama and call him fake.
For some reason, I am sure NKT, especially the top brass knows this but they have another unspoken reason for this. Perhaps, it may be a strategic move to 'cajol' Trijang Rinpoche to do more. Whatever it is, it is very obvious that there is more than meets the eye.
I agree with Big Uncle, we need no more controversies. CTA and the current leaders of Tibetans in exile are doing enough.
Shugdenpas should remain solid and grounded in our faith of Dorje Shugden and once our collective karma is purified, the propitiation of our Great Protector will spread in 10 directions to benefit and protect many many sentient beings.
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We don't really need this. Why are we fighting amongst ourselves? It's very clear that Choktrul Trijang Rinpoche is the unmistaken incarnation as he was found by Kyabje Zong Rinpoche and confirmed by Dorje Shugden. Just because he is a lay lama does not lessen his knowledge, wisdom, compassion or spiritual attainments or make him less qualified to be a lama. Throughout history, there are many examples of lay lamas in Indian and Tibetan tradition.
In the Indian tradition, we have numerous Indian mahasiddhas and even the master Chandragomin was a lay lama. In the Tibetan tradition, we are talking about Marpa, Milarepa and so forth. Even recently, we have Serkong Dorje Chang in our own lineage who is told by very own lama to take up a consort to further his practice. I just find it ridiculous that this is used to denounce a lama and call him fake.
For some reason, I am sure NKT, especially the top brass knows this but they have another unspoken reason for this. Perhaps, it may be a strategic move to 'cajol' Trijang Rinpoche to do more. Whatever it is, it is very obvious that there is more than meets the eye.
Big Uncle is right! We, Shugden practitioners really do need this and do not need to create more problems for ourselves, we do not need more disharmony and more disunity. It is horrible hearing these kind of false accusations from NKT/Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and Kelsang Rabten really sounded very rude and cut throat. It really does not make NKT look good and it actually proves to those against them, that the NKT group are really "not very nice/kind" group of people/sangha. It really makes me lose respect for NKT.
How can NKT say that Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche is false and why bring it up and blow it up NOW? If it was so true and Geshela was so sure, he would have brought it up and blow it up a long long time ago, perhaps when Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche was recognise when he was a child and enthroned?
What he is saying now is that the whole entire Gaden Monastery, H.H. Kyabje Zong Rinpoche that was involved is searching for Trijang Rinpoche's incarnation, and even Dorje Shugden himself who recognised and confirmed Trijang Rinpoche's incarnation via the oracle is also wrong? WOW! Everyone is WRONG except Geshe Kelsang who just heard a remark that no one can even back it up. Well if the whole entire great elite attained masters + Dorje Shugden is wrong, then chances are Geshela can be wrong too! Same logic applies and what more is, there are so many more people who are against him, 1 person who thinks what he heard is accurate.
I'm sorry to say this but Geshe Kelsang sounds EXACTLY like HH the Dalai Lama who said all lineage Lamas who believe in Dorje Shugden are wrong. Geshela sounds exactly like Dalai Lama... isn't this so ironic? I am sorry but I don't buy what Geshela say and is doing now and I do not like the way NKT is blowing this out of proportion and creating a split between Shugden community. It is okay if the NKT wish to stand on their own and no longer wish to associate themselves with a lineage of enlightened masters, they may do so, although I don't see a point, any benefit or any blessings from it, but that is their choice. Just don't drag everyone else into the mud with them please! And stop hurting other people with their dramatic false accusations and lies.
Yes we may not know what craziness Geshela is manifesting here as he is no doubt a pure attained master, but whatever his intentions are, I sure hope it can quickly manifest so that we can put a rest to this chaos and disbelief. However, my request is please NKT sangha/teachers and people, behave well, be careful of your speech so it does not create more negative karma by hurting others and falsely accusing Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche, Geshela may be attained and doing some mahasiddha action here, but you are not, so please watch it and represent your teacher/centre well please. You do not need to be rude at all.
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IF this was done by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, I truly believe that what he does, he has a bigger picture in mind. His decisions and dedication made New Kadampa Tradition a huge movement with hundreds of centres around the world, and the protests, although I don't agree with the slogan, caught the attention of media worldwide to report on the Shugden issue or conflict.
If this was done by his students, I am sorry, I do not have faith, and what they do doesn't seem right. They made Geshe-la looks like someone who goes against his teacher, the previous Trijang Rinpoche.
What is the real reason behind this :-\ :-\ :-\ Although NKT is big, it doesn't mean what they say is absolutely right 8)
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Can anyone be sure that, that was what Geshe Kelsang Gyatso said. Besides, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso hasn't made an appearance in public for a long while now. Could this be again internal politics in the absence of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso?
Anyway, as for Shar Gaden website, obviously something is not right as they have no access to the website. So, who is in charge of the website there?
Samsara, samsara, is Buddhism to be destroyed from within?
Source: http://www.meditationthailand.com/16predictions.htm (http://www.meditationthailand.com/16predictions.htm)
@vajratruth - "This describes well the situation the High Lamas and serious practitioners of Dorje Shugden find themselves today. Clearly, the Buddha foresaw this situation occurring. "
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=2041.msg29070#msg29070 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=2041.msg29070#msg29070)
Degeneration of the Buddha's teachings as prophesied?
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Can anyone be sure that, that was what Geshe Kelsang Gyatso said. Besides, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso hasn't made an appearance in public for a long while now. Could this be again internal politics in the absence of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso?
Don't mean to sound like some of the NKT-haters, but really, because Geshe Kelsang Gyatso did not make public appearance, that has caused much speculation on whether certain things done were Geshe-la's wishes. Perhaps Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's purpose of doing so is for the NKT Sangha to rely and focus on the next generation of teachers, such as Kelsang Dekyong, Kelsang Khyenrab, Kelsang Rabten and so on.
Does anyone see any response from the NKT people besides Kelsang Rabten? I wonder if 1 person represents what the whole Sangha of NKT thinks? :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
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The latest is that Shar Gaden has launched their own official website - https://www.shargaden.org/ (https://www.shargaden.org/)
Im not sure what this accomplishes since they dont appear in the search results when you search for the monasterys name but Im sure theres a good reason behind it. In any case, heres hoping this website will be updated more often than the previous one was. Most Tibetan monasteries dont have a very good track record of upkeeping their online real estate which is a real pity because its the easiest way these days to reach out for support from around the world instead of relying on tourists who stumble across you only after theyve made their way to India!
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And here we have two-face Stasi Peljor, posing as Blake Smith, who disappeared and then reappeared, who suddenly seem like he's on Shugden Tibetans/ non-NKT Shugdenpas side!
(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5809.0;attach=6668;image)
>>> http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=5809.msg63803#msg63803 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=5809.msg63803#msg63803)
What I am very surprised is how all the issue on NKT calling HH Trijang Rinpoche fake is turning out to be siding Shugden people/Tibetans who are not NKT followers! Strangely it has twisted to be like so, on purpose or not that is the question here.
Is Geshe Kelsang Gyatso destroying NKT's link with all Tibetan connections in order to for more unity and action from the Tibetan Shugdenpas themselves? Just toying with some possible scenarios, if the motivation was set good for a much bigger cause. Perhaps I am being wishful thinking?
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Geshe Kelsang Gyatso’s and his senior student, Kelsang Rabten’s comments on the authenticity of Kyabje Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche have attracted many controversies, especially from Trijang Tulku faithful followers. I do not and have never doubted Geshe Kelsang’s noble intention in spreading the Dharma and his faith on Dorje Shugden. His lifetime of work is the proof of his faith of his perseverance and good intention.
On the other hand, I also believe that the current incarnation of Trijang Rinpoche has a lot of potentials, and I do not doubt the authenticity of his incarnation status. However, I have not seen Trijang Rinpoche or his followers are doing much to help lift the Dorje Shugden ban and relief the suffering of many in the recent years.
I do believe that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso’s comment on the authenticity of Trijang Rinpoche was meant to provoke him and his followers to do more to prove to the world that the current Trijang Tulku is the real incarnation. Otherwise, why only comment after Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche reached the age of 35 years old and had been recognized for years?
Therefore, instead of making the situation worse by creating controversy and making NKT an enemy, I strongly suggest that Trijang Rinpoche’s followers to do more work to preserve the lineage and spread the Dharma in order to convince the world that the current Trijang Rinpoche is the real incarnation. I believe this will be more beneficial.
May peace prevails!
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There were 'rumours' through the grapevine that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso was upset as many NKT members or students attended Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche's teachings in Europe. Has anyone heard anything similar :o?
NKT is a huge organisation, how many is 'many' exactly? In my opinion, someone like Geshe Kelsang Gyatso will not be bothered if a small number of people went to attend Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche's teachings. Even if these people were to leave NKT, they may not stop the NKT from growing bigger and attracting more students? Unless the students attending Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche's teachings were Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's close students, I don't think it is a big concern for NKT as there are 1200 Kadampa Centers and branches in 40 countries around the world.
Another thing to consider is what was the basis Geshe Kelsang Gyatso was upset? Was it because Geshe Kelsang Gyatso doesn't believe that Chocktrul Rinpoche is the real incarnation, or was it because Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche is a potential 'threat' or 'competitor'? What do you think?
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@pemachen, do you think Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is trying to goad Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche to show his activities publicly and in way to prove that he is who the other high lamas say he is? To proof by his activities? Right now, Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche has been pretty low key. After all, the proof is in the pudding, that by his activities that benefit many, many people, Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche silences all dissension and rally all Dorje Shugden practitioners behind him?
I think it is pretty demeaning to think that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso can be jealous or fearful of Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche's influence or popularity. There is nothing to be gained and a lot to be lost by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso further dividing practitioners. Why would attained beings get involved in such mundane affairs if not for a higher cause?
Or, do you think that Buddha's prophecy that Buddhism will be destroyed from within, is happening here and now?
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I cannot believe it! Why is there now also politics within the Dorje Shugden community? Why attacking Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche who has been recognised by HH Zong Rinpoche and Dorje Shugden long time ago?
I don't see the point to create further problems by going against one another! We should work together to end the Shugden ban and not starting problems where there are none!
So the only thing we want is to end the ban against Dorje Shugden, am I right or am I right?
I hope this can stay our main focus as this is crucial for all of us!
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It seems things are getting more serious now. I just saw this. I wonder what NKT/ ISBC has up the sleeve?
(https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/PqP4QOQUU.jpg)
Seems like some NKT members who have been quiet are now are speaking up about this. Why is NKT/ ISBC doing this - still no has has or has given the answer. It cannot be that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is just adamant that Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche is fake. Come on, Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche was in the monastery for years, it cannot be that he is fake, and non of the high lamas said anything ::) Geshe Kelsang Gyatso should know, he was in the monastery system.
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(http://1.1m.yt/TIvuZ9N.jpg)
I saw quite a few posts about the leaflet from NKT people on facebook. Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche's birth date is still being debated. NKT insisting on this wrong information to make their argument ::).
(http://2.1m.yt/Au4OSbN.jpg)
His Holiness Kyabje Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche is the eighteenth in a lineage of eminent Indian and Tibetan pandits and masters. The supreme reincarnation was born on October 15 1982 in a Tibetan family in Dalhousie, Northern India and was officially recognized by His Holiness the 14th. Dalai Lama on April 23, 1985. Rinpoche has completed his primary studies under his root guru H.E. Kyabje Lati Rinpoche and Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche. Presently Rinpoche is doing further studies under the guidance of H.E. Dagpo Rinpoche, H.E. Yongyal Rinpoche. As the Spiritual Director of the Trijang Buddhist Institute, he will guide the Institute's activities and programs for the public, for ordained monks and nuns, and for future lay teachers whose Dharma training is anticipated in coming years.
https://www.tbiusa.org/his-holiness-trijang-chocktrul-rinpoche-spiritual-director/
I am sure the information from the Trijang Buddhist Institute's website is the most accurate?
I have been thinking. Since NKT is against the Lama Policy and has traditionally DO NOT recognise Tulkus or are familiar with the Tulku system, WHO MAKES THEM THE AUTHORITY now to say that the current Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche is not the real one?
Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche was recognised through the proper Tulku recognition system, being recognised by HH the Dalai Lama, as well as growing up in the monastery among great lamas, senior Tulkus, before he had to leave the monastery in his teens due to death threats. It cannot be that for the 13 years Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche was in the monastery, everyone, including his teachers mentioned above from Gaden, Sera, Drepung all kept quiet about this 'fake' incarnation?
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(http://3.1m.yt/zvPIucc.jpg)
I don't know what NKT is up to, really. They are against the tulku system or Lama policy, I respect them for this is what they wish for their Kadampa organization. But they cannot deny the fact that this system is there, and was established and had been 'in use' till now and is still working.
You can read more here, you may not have read this before: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/dharma-readings/the-tulku-system-is-crucial-for-the-lineage-to-endure/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/dharma-readings/the-tulku-system-is-crucial-for-the-lineage-to-endure/)
This also does not mean that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso do not believe in tulkus/ reincarnation system. In fact, it is well known that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso claims he has recognised the reincarnation of his mother in the daughter of an English couple, Ruth and Ron Lister. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's uncle was the Choyang Duldzin Kuten Lama, a Dorje Shugden oracle of Gaden Monastery, who had visited and took trance in Manjushri Institute.
Prajna, these teachers mentioned by you (from the Trijang Buddhist Institute websites) are highly respected teachers and some are abbots/ ex-abbots of the Three Great Seats (Gaden, Sera, Drepung). It is unlikely that the 3 monasteries will go along accepting a fake incarnation.
Besides, the 101st Ganden Tripa Lungri Namgyal Rinpoche also recognised Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche, authorizing Trijang Buddhist Institute of Northfelid Vermont to “represent and transmit the teachings of the Gelug order of Tibetan Buddhism in the United States.”
He also stated catacorically that Trijang Chogtrul Rinpoche (“having been educated in the teachings of the Gelug order of Tibetan Buddhism, and officially recognized by His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama as being the incarnation of the late Trijang Dorje Chang, Tutor to the 14th Dalai Lama and one of the greatest twentieth-century Buddhist masters of this order…”) is fully qualified to act as director of TBI.
So, the whole of Gelugpa recognises Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche. But again, NKT is not Gelugpa, so...
Here is the letter,
(http://www.dorjeshugden.com/images/gadentriletter.jpg)
taken from the post 'Ganden Tripa Authorizes Dorje Shugden Practitioners to represent the Gelugpa tradition'
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/ganden-tripa-authorizes-dorje-shugden-pratitioners-to-represent-the-gelugpa-tradition/
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The only thing that comes to my mind is "STOP LYING"
All these accusations have no basis! What is the goal here?
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I am surprised about the basis of criticism, which is the birth date, as well as Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche being married.
(http://1.1m.yt/BPudUdo.jpg)
Let's see...
(http://4.1m.yt/ewm07d0.jpg)
The 10th Panchen Lama was married with a daughter.
(https://scontent.fkul8-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/11041776_807472542633961_7338539434122429332_n.jpg?oh=b473cf64eab238ee7d5f8e3e46f232e0&oe=595E5867)
Famous Nyingma master Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche with (wife) Sangyum Khandro Lhamo in the center; to the right is their daughter Semo Chime Wangmo and to the left her sister at Lhasa before leaving for Bhutan around 1959.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/07/78/a5/0778a5dff291e4c9ff10003645e1d119.jpg)
Sakya's Drolma Podrang family (Sakya Trizins)
(http://s16.sinaimg.cn/middle/9bfb5864gd56e39143e0f&690)
Sakya's Phuntsok Podrang family (Sakya Trizins)
As for Kagyu, His Holiness the 15th Karmapa (1871-1922), Khakhyab Dorje had three sons, one of whom was recognised as the second Jamgon Kongtrul Palden Khyentse Oser. Now the 17th Karmapa was also recently married.
(http://2.1m.yt/9hFZ5ai.jpg)
So according to the argument by International Shugden Buddhist Community, does that mean ALL SCHOOLS of Tibetan Buddhism ‘has no experience of pure Buddhism’ >:( 8)?
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This whole 'issue' is a joke, unnecessary and harmful to the lineage. The NKT are here to find fault based on their own policies and beliefs. They are forcing their policies onto other people arrogantly forcing others to follow regardless. The NKT has a reputation for being arrogant and unreasonable, their attitude do not represent NKT or GKG well too. In fact, they do not behave like a sangha but angersome lay people who blame others for their faults.
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THE MEANING OF CONTROVERSY
Dear Friends,
Throughout the history of Buddhism, there has been controversy, especially in Tibet. Welcome to your own samsara produced through mistaken discrimination of reality. There are many things that have happened in Tibetan Buddhism, said or done or even written in ritual texts by lineage Gurus that to our ordinary appearance and limited wisdom seem to contradict Buddhas teachings. Murder, slander, competition for fame and resources and so on into the present list of controversies; these thing have the power to destroy our faith and even our practice altogether, and have done so for many people in our world.
I would like to share how I cope with controversy in the Buddhist community with a hope it will help alleviate the pain or confusion we may feel. Rather than elaborating on all the details, we need to take the power back by focusing on the essential meaning of the appearance.
So, rather than run myself in circles trying to figure out why this and why that or lose faith, I have concluded that:
1) the essence of life is to accomplish realizations
2) the only reason difficulties and controversies happen, is for us to use these as fuel to deepen out realizations.
This is from the lojong instructions. In every situation in life we are given a choice to either follow the boring ordinary path of deluded view that is worthless, or the extraordinary path of Buddhist view that is priceless.
Although conventions are complex and we may involve ourself in relevant activities, if we forget the meaning of our life in our activities, we are missing the point of having encountered the Dharma. I know we each have our own capacity, but don't let that knowledge become an excuse to let your monkey mind run wild with nonsense! Seize the essence of your life, it is about to extinguish! Procrastination is the thief of time!
No matter what controversies appear or how the Gurus act, may Je Tsongkhapa's blessings erupt in your heart with powerful gentle precision. THAT is the meaning of controversy!
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One of my Teachers is Dorjechang Kelsang Gyatso Rinpoche. Because I value Dharma realizations, I can honestly say I could care less whether or not he has a tulku title. He has transmitted holy Dharma for me to permanently end samsara. Just as Je Tsongkhapa said that it was more important for people to be taught wisdom than to be shown fancy miracles, so it is more important for people to develop realizations than it is to have teachers we only validate through a tulku title. There are many many tulkus in our world who do not have the public title. It may have been necessary in the culture of Tibet, but it is no longer necessary.
So what's the big deal here? If I were a close heart disciple of my root Guru and knew that someone was acquiring status and wealth through using the tulku title of my root Guru, but that they weren't the incarnation of my Guru, I would make some effort to ask them to stop using my Gurus' legacy this way. In that sense, certainly you can understand why Geshe-la would finally speak openly and take some action.
Likewise, if I knew that I wasn't the tulku, and if I was genuinely beyond worldly concern, I would declare it publicly, give up the title, and simply continue to help others with my Dharma activities knowing the title is irrelevant. If I knew I was the tulku, I would have a private meeting with my accuser to discuss it, and still give up the title knowing what really matters is not fancy titles but the Dharma. The Dharma, people gaining realizations; and like Langri Tangpa and Marpa Lotsaw, I would continuously use the gifts I receive from disciples and benefactors to benefit others.
If Trijang Choktrul has received the transmissions, practiced well, done the necessary retreats, and been given permission to transmit, that is sufficient is it not? To a mind focused on realizations, the title of your Guru doesn't matter. It's his transmission and your practice that are the most important. Mahasiddha Tilopa and Jetsun Milarepa were dirty wandering beggars and they did just fine transmitting the lineage. If nowadays we think a tulku title is necessary to qualify our Guru, we have not studied and meditated in the lamrim instructions on Guru Devotion, wherein we learn it is our own view of 'the Guru is Buddha' that makes them function as a Buddha for us. That decision is essential, and having the other qualifications such as transmissions are important. 'Title' is not.
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I want to clarify that I haven't shared my thoughts to say he should or should not use the title 'tulku', but merely to share some perspectives that had been on my mind.
What I've been trying to drive home really is that our faith is important, and that it should be built on the foundation of contemplating the lamrim instructions regarding Guru Devotion rather than on a foundation of titles or positions. If we view Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche as a Buddha, or as the Yidam, that is more to the point of Guru devotion than paying too much attention to a title such as 'tulku'. If we are resting on the foundation of pure view, we will not care if our Guru has a special title or not, or whether or not they are part of an incarnation lineage, because our view is that they are a Buddha.
Likewise, if in our practice we have actually tasted the peace of virtuous minds, now is the time to hold those minds. Challenging situations are produced to test our ability to react by going deeper into our virtuous minds. If you are not passing the test, I recommend taking a break from the challenging information to spend time in formal meditation so that you will have some power and insight to draw upon when you encounter the information again.
I pray for harmony and especially for practitioners to have the power to transform adverse conditions into virtuous inner paths of profound realization.
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You are absolutely right. Whether the person is a tulku or not does not matter. As long as he/she has done the necessaries to make them qualified to transmit the teachings. No one is making a big deal of the tulku issue except NKT/ISBC. They should stop doing this and make more harmony.
One of my Teachers is Dorjechang Kelsang Gyatso Rinpoche. Because I value Dharma realizations, I can honestly say I could care less whether or not he has a tulku title. He has transmitted holy Dharma for me to permanently end samsara. Just as Je Tsongkhapa said that it was more important for people to be taught wisdom than to be shown fancy miracles, so it is more important for people to develop realizations than it is to have teachers we only validate through a tulku title. There are many many tulkus in our world who do not have the public title. It may have been necessary in the culture of Tibet, but it is no longer necessary.
So what's the big deal here? If I were a close heart disciple of my root Guru and knew that someone was acquiring status and wealth through using the tulku title of my root Guru, but that they weren't the incarnation of my Guru, I would make some effort to ask them to stop using my Gurus' legacy this way. In that sense, certainly you can understand why Geshe-la would finally speak openly and take some action.
Likewise, if I knew that I wasn't the tulku, and if I was genuinely beyond worldly concern, I would declare it publicly, give up the title, and simply continue to help others with my Dharma activities knowing the title is irrelevant. If I knew I was the tulku, I would have a private meeting with my accuser to discuss it, and still give up the title knowing what really matters is not fancy titles but the Dharma. The Dharma, people gaining realizations; and like Langri Tangpa and Marpa Lotsaw, I would continuously use the gifts I receive from disciples and benefactors to benefit others.
If Trijang Choktrul has received the transmissions, practiced well, done the necessary retreats, and been given permission to transmit, that is sufficient is it not? To a mind focused on realizations, the title of your Guru doesn't matter. It's his transmission and your practice that are the most important. Mahasiddha Tilopa and Jetsun Milarepa were dirty wandering beggars and they did just fine transmitting the lineage. If nowadays we think a tulku title is necessary to qualify our Guru, we have not studied and meditated in the lamrim instructions on Guru Devotion, wherein we learn it is our own view of 'the Guru is Buddha' that makes them function as a Buddha for us. That decision is essential, and having the other qualifications such as transmissions are important. 'Title' is not.
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I saw this on FB and twitter. It was a debate between NKT's Kelsang Pagpa and another person. I found the debate very applicable here:
From Kelsang Pagpa of NKT:
- The Dalai Lama recognised him - isn't that suspect enough?
- The Dalai Lama is false anyway, so what does his appointing or recognising anyone mean anyway? Nothing.
- The tulku system is causing so many problems and cannot be trusted.
- That's debatable because they keep getting it wrong! The Dalai Lama is a fake and so is Trijang - how many others? Better to rely on Dharma.
- People should be respected for their spiritual achievements not their 'big name' and past incarnation achievements. It's too unreliable.
- Yes, he (Geshe Kelsang Gyatso) knew what he was doing and had no political motives. It's a different matter when you 'recognise' a spiritual leader.
Reply to Kelsang Pagpa
1. Zong Rinpoche and Zemey Rinpoche recognizing Trijang Rinpoche HAD NO POLITICAL MOTIVES. They have the ability and attainments to recognize. They have recognize many other incarnations also.
2. It is unreliable to you Pagpa because you are a ordinary person. But it may not be unreliable to those who are highly attained. There are people who are highly attained and to them they can make reliable choices. Choices they recognize may grow up to perform a dharma function that does not fit YOUR world view, but that does not mean it is wrong. Not everything has to fit your world view so you should mind your own business. People can choose whoever they want as their teacher. Many of the Mahasiddhas were lay people-so what!
3. Zong Rinpoche and Zemey Rinpoche recognizing Trijang Rinpoche HAD NO POLITICAL MOTIVES. They have the ability and attainments to recognize. They have recognize many other incarnations also.
It is unreliable to you Pagpa because you are a ordinary person. But it may not be unreliable to those who are highly attained. There are people who are highly attained and to them they can make reliable choices. Choices they recognize may grow up to perform a dharma function that does not fit YOUR world view, but that does not mean it is wrong. Not everything has to fit your world view so you should mind your own business. People can choose whoever they want as their teacher. Many of the Mahasiddhas were lay people-so what!
You work and act and do according to your world view and keep quiet about other people's choices. Religious Freedom!
4. Just because Geshe Kelsang says yes or not does not mean the whole world of Tibetan Buddhist followers have to follow. Personally I do not follow Geshe Kelsang nor do I trust his decisions. That is my choice. Similarily, I do not need to run around protesting against Geshe Kelsang nor speak negatively against him. Nor do I need to force my views/traditions/path onto him and his followers. It is the same with him. Geshe Kelsang and NKT/ISBC should not force your views/paths/traditions onto others. If you don't like a particular lama/tradition or methodology, that is your choice. But keep quiet about it. Do you agree with the pope, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Jehovahs, Mormons, Hinduism and all their traditions, teachers and methods? If you don't, then why don't you protest against all of them? Too much? That's right. Too much. We don't go through life fighting all the spiritual traditions and people we don't like. You should just keep quiet and practice your own path and prove it's power by your attainments.
Are you attained Pagpa? Is anyone in NKT among the students attained? Realized or advanced in their practice? If they are great. If they are not, then get to it. Better to go and practice instead of protesting against all the religious traditions/practices and path you don't agree with. You don't like Dalai Lama, then fine. Don't attend his talks and don't invite him to your centre. You don't like Trijang Rinpoche, same thing. But there are people who like them and their teachings and that is their right and their business. You do not need to get involved with other people's affairs. If you think following Trijang Choktrul is wrong, fine. You don't follow, but don't tell others not to follow as it's not your centre, not your business and not your decision. It is none of your business. It is one thing to protest and make a huge scene by protesting against the Dalai Lama for religious freedom but it is another for you, NKT, ISBC and Geshe Kelsang to dictate what is religion to others. It is wrong for you to dictate what path, teacher and tradition anyone wishes to follow. Religious freedom goes both ways!
5. It is unreliable to you Pagpa because you are a ordinary person. But it may not be unreliable to those who are highly attained. There are people who are highly attained and to them they can make reliable choices. Choices they recognize may grow up to perform a dharma function that does not fit YOUR world view, but that does not mean it is wrong. Not everything has to fit your world view so you should mind your own business. People can choose whoever they want as their teacher. Many of the Mahasiddhas were lay people-so what!
You work and act and do according to your world view and keep quiet about other people's choices. Religious Freedom!
6. I don't agree with Geshe Kelsang. I do not think he is attained. I am glad he will have no incarnation to be recognized when he is passes away. I will never attend his teachings nor invite him to any centre. I have and wish no affiliations with him. But I will not tell people not to attend his talks or be involved with NKT or ISBC. That is their choice. Each centre has a committee and students.They decide for their OWN CENTRE what teacher, what tradition (if any) and what practices they wish to follow. It is not for NKT/ISBC to tell other centres who they can follow and not follow. We do not need your endorsement to follow whatever teacher we like as that is our choice. If people want to follow Trijang Choktrul, that is their choice and the choice of their committee be it wrong or right in your eyes. ISBC/NKT do not rule the roost as the saying goes. You mind your own business. No one except yourselves need to listen to your diktats. The rest of us have our own wishes, opinions and direction. So keep out of it.
I want to clarify that I haven't shared my thoughts to say he should or should not use the title 'tulku', but merely to share some perspectives that had been on my mind.
What I've been trying to drive home really is that our faith is important, and that it should be built on the foundation of contemplating the lamrim instructions regarding Guru Devotion rather than on a foundation of titles or positions. If we view Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche as a Buddha, or as the Yidam, that is more to the point of Guru devotion than paying too much attention to a title such as 'tulku'. If we are resting on the foundation of pure view, we will not care if our Guru has a special title or not, or whether or not they are part of an incarnation lineage, because our view is that they are a Buddha.
Likewise, if in our practice we have actually tasted the peace of virtuous minds, now is the time to hold those minds. Challenging situations are produced to test our ability to react by going deeper into our virtuous minds. If you are not passing the test, I recommend taking a break from the challenging information to spend time in formal meditation so that you will have some power and insight to draw upon when you encounter the information again.
I pray for harmony and especially for practitioners to have the power to transform adverse conditions into virtuous inner paths of profound realization.
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I agree with what Erstvollzug said. Kelsang Pagpa and NKT may not agree with the Dalai Lama's stand on Dorje Shugden issue and use that as a basis of not respecting his recognition of Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche as the reincarnation of the late Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. However, Kelsang Pagpa and friends should remember that Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche was also recognized by other prominent Dorje Shugden Lamas such as Zemey Rinpoche and Zong Rinpoche.
Geshe Kelsang Gyatso himself is known to have recognized the reincarnation of his own mother. Therefore, recognition of one's incarnation is not something new within Buddhism and NKT.
Just because Geshe Kelsang Gyatso suddenly does not agree with Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche's incarnation status (after many years of silence), it does not invalidate the previous recognition of Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche. Just like when the Dalai Lama suddenly changed his stance that Dorje Shugden is a spirit after practicing this protector deity for many years, it does not mean that Dorje Shugden is a spirit. I am sure Kelsang Pagpa and other NKT members can relate to this point.
Although the recognition would help to alleviate the status, at the end of the day, Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche would realise his potentials to benefit many beings. What we can do as ordinary practitioners is to not create further obstacles for this to happen.
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This Kelsang Pagpa is such a hypocrite... he and the whole ISBC is really becoming a huge pot of negative KARMA collection centre!
Look at what I discovered from a friend's Twitter >>>
(http://i67.tinypic.com/2zp61ip.png)
Seriously who is he to judge since he is not attained and ordinary and I guess will never be attained according to NKT's standards! So might as well just shut the big gap and just do their practice quietly, no?
I don't their hypocrisy, they ask the anti-Shugden people to GIVE RELIGIOUS FREEDOM yet they DON'T GIVE IT TO OTHERS? How IRONIC!
Pagpa should really just stuff himself stay quiet, NKT really paint a horrible image of their entire centre and bring Buddhism down. Now they are really segregating and alienating themselves from the whole Buddhist world and making whatever CTA says REAL! The more they judge and condemn others, the more they are becoming a cult!
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Anyway here are some nice quotes I found floating around Twitter which everyone and anyone can feel free to use to support one of our great lineage masters ... H.H. Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche.
Long live His Holiness Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche. Perhaps this is all playing out well for all of us Shugdenpas as we become stronger and even more united than ever.
May Geshe Kelsang Gyatso be well and at peace. Whatever he is doing, is making our devotion to HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche even stronger, we should thank him! :) :) :)
Thank you!
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Anyway here are some nice quotes I found floating around Twitter which everyone and anyone can feel free to use to support one of our great lineage masters ... H.H. Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche.
Long live His Holiness Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche. Perhaps this is all playing out well for all of us Shugdenpas as we become stronger and even more united than ever.
May Geshe Kelsang Gyatso be well and at peace. Whatever he is doing, is making our devotion to HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche even stronger, we should thank him! :) :) :)
Thank you!
Thank you for these pictures!
For sure we will not be influenced by people who take anything, even a typing mistake for putting down HH Trijang Rinpoche.
Sorry to say but this is only showing their delusions, to start attacks against highly attained lamas, what a shame.
We need Buddhism to grow stronger as people need it so much in these degenerate times. May we all be close to the holy Dharma and our holy Gurus always.
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There is zero evidence that the demeaning and defamatory statements against the current Trijang and Gonsar Rinpoches originated from, or are in any way endorsed by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.
What is obvious, however, is that some greedy NKT bureaucrats, wishing to bolster their corporate brand, and to ensure its relevance in the absence of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, are making a crude attempt to present themselves as the sole heirs and representatives of both Tsongkhapa and the previous Trijang Rinpoche.
This need is all the more felt by such bureaucrats, since an incarnation of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is not supposed to be found. Indeed, how to avoid the disintegration of such a huge organization as the NKT without Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's leadership, and without his reincarnation to continue his work?
Of course, Geshe-la's worth students could do the job, but as it often happens the best students are the worse politicians, and surely not those running the affairs of NKT, as evidenced by the sordid defamatory campaign now endeavored against the current Trijang and Gonsar Rinpoches by NKT politicians.
Therefore, the strategy was devised by the corporate bureaucrats running NKT of hijacking the brand names “Tsongkhapa” and “Trijang Rinpoche”, so that they are associated with “NKT” and “ISBC” to the absolute exclusion of any other of their followers, whence the need to defame and thoroughly degrade them.
Just like the Jewish “god” could not justify its own evil and irrelevance except through the demonization of wisdom, as represented by the serpent, the greedy NKT bureaucrats realize their utter irrelevance, and see the defamation of others as their only means of survival .
And just like the Jewish “god” has to be the only one and does not accept the competition of any other gods, the greedy NKT bureaucrats sell the story that they and only they, to the exclusion of anyone else, represent Tsongkhapa and the previous Trijang Rinpoche, whence again the need to defame the perceived competition.
What we are seeing therefore is the ugliest, most grotesque pattern of religious manipulative discourse, so typical of barbaric, monomaniac Abrahamic ideologies, creeping into Buddhism, and specifically into “Shugden” branded Buddhism.
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In other words, while Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and his incomparable teachings and inspiration will be forever alive, the previously glorious NKT, now ruled by a bunch of greedy theocratical mafiosi, became just a stinking corpse in advanced state if decomposition.
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It seems things are getting more serious now. I just saw this. I wonder what NKT/ ISBC has up the sleeve?
(https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/PqP4QOQUU.jpg)
Seems like some NKT members who have been quiet are now are speaking up about this. Why is NKT/ ISBC doing this - still no has has or has given the answer. It cannot be that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is just adamant that Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche is fake. Come on, Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche was in the monastery for years, it cannot be that he is fake, and non of the high lamas said anything ::) Geshe Kelsang Gyatso should know, he was in the monastery system.
So Kyabje Zong Rinpoche was wrong, Zemey Rinpoche was wrong, His Holiness Ganden Trisur Lundgrik Namgyal Rinpoche was wrong, Dorje Shugden was wrong, Lama Gangchen is wrong, Gonsar Rinpoche is wrong...and only the Kelsangs (NKT) are correct about whether Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche is real or not? In essence, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is also accusing Zong Rinpoche and Dorje Shugden to be incompetent or dishonest since Zong Rinpoche and Dorje Shugden were significantly involved in the recognition of Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche.
We have seen a similar kind of derogation before when the Dalai Lama and his corrupt politicians accused Dorje Shugden of being a malicious spirit and harmful to the Dalai Lama. Again it was one-sided, baseless and vicious. Ironically then, it was the Kelsangs who accused the 'fake' Dalai Lama of lying and now they accuse Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche of being fake.
The Kelsangs seems to spend all their time working out who is real and who isn't instead of focussing on the study and practice of the five great subjects. I think it would serve the NKT better if they worked out amongst themselves who is really practicing Dharma and who isn't. I cannot recall ever coming across a single passage in the Buddha's teachings that advocates creating schism and insulting Dharma teachers to be the path to enlightenment.
The NKT says that the tulku system is unreliable and corrupt, as if a non-tulku system is free of exploitation. The simple fact is samsara is corrupt and full of falsities and deceits. However, it is interesting that 600 years after Lama Tsongkhapa lived, someone like Geshe Kelsang Gyatso should choose to study under a system preserved and administered by tulkus and lamas says that the system has been effective despite not being foolproof. Geshe Kelsang Gyatse learned from a root guru who was a tulku and he benefited from a system that the NKT today says doesn't work. It worked fine for countless illustrious teachers and practitioners and produced innumerable attained scholars. But suddenly because the NKT is not built to follow the system and must invent its own, there is now a need to discredit it lest is shows the NKT to be odd.
Whether Trijang Choktrul is real or not is no concern of the NKT. By this poor showing of ordinary Kelsangs attacking senior monks and practitioners, I would say the NKT has much to be concerned about. If the Lama system is not beneficial to the NKT, don't follow it.
The biggest joke is someone like Kelsang Pagpa claiming Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche is not real. Wow!
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In essence, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is also accusing Zong Rinpoche and Dorje Shugden to be incompetent or dishonest since Zong Rinpoche and Dorje Shugden were significantly involved in the recognition of Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche
Do you have any hard evidence that the NKT hate propaganda originates from, or is in any way supported by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso? if you do, please show it to the rest of us, but if you don't please apologize and stop defaming the great teacher and propagating your own hate speech, by the way unsuitable to your condition of moderator of this website.
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The funny thing here is that while there is plenty of hard evidence that the evil dalie lame is the one personally waging war against Shugdenpas, many people here try to save his face and blame the “CTA”, but while there is an absolute lack of evidence that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is the one behind NKT's hate propaganda, people such as Vajratruth rush to blame him personally.
This hypocritical double standards shows that opportunistic politicians abound not only in CTA or NKT, but on this website as well, even as “moderators”.
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And what such opportunistic politicians ultimately want? To be cozy with the evil criminal dalie, thus always trying to save his face, and as the opportunity shows, to earn cookie points in Dharamsala defaming the evil dalie's perceived arch-nemesis, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. What a dishonorability, what a shame!
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In essence, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is also accusing Zong Rinpoche and Dorje Shugden to be incompetent or dishonest since Zong Rinpoche and Dorje Shugden were significantly involved in the recognition of Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche
Do you have any hard evidence that the NKT hate propaganda originates from, or is in any way supported by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso? if you do, please show it to the rest of us, but if you don't please apologize and stop defaming the great teacher and propagating your own hate speech, by the way unsuitable to your condition of moderator of this website.
Matibhadra,
You should ask Kelsang Rabten, or any NKT person. Do you seriously suggest that the Kelsangs would do anything without Geshela's directive? Wouldn't it look absolutely ridiculous that a couple of the NKT people decided to question a senior lama's spiritual qualifications especially when Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche has nothing whatsoever to do with them.
The right question you should be asking is where's the proof that Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche is a 'fake'.
The next question you can ask is how is it the NKT's business.
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Vajratruth, you say
You should ask Kelsang Rabten, or any NKT person.
This is what *you* should have done before irresponsibly leveling unwarranted accusations against Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.
Now that you recognize that your gross accusation has zero hard evidence in its support, at least have the decency to apologize, instead of cynically asking me to do your job.
Do you seriously suggest that the Kelsangs would do anything without Geshela's directive?
Of course! Or tell me that bad disciples misusing the name of their teacher is something new to you?
Anyway, now you confess that your gross accusation is based on the mere, ridiculous presumption that disciples are always faithful to their teachers.
In other words, you have just confessed your thorough lack of hard evidence in support of your accusation.
Now, please show some decency and do apologize, or change your nickname to something like “vajraslanderer”.
Wouldn't it look absolutely ridiculous that a couple of the NKT people decided to question a senior lama's spiritual qualifications especially when Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche has nothing whatsoever to do with them.
So what. Even more ridiculous is your assumption that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is behind them. And beyond ridiculous, it is shameful that you level such a gross accusation on the mere basis of such a ridiculous assumption.
By the way, according to your own logic, behind your false accusation there must be some Geshe Kelsang Gyatso-hating lama, because it would look ridiculous for you to question Geshe-la's qualifications, right?
Therefore, make the bold step and reveal who is the defaming lama behind you.
The right question you should be asking is where's the proof that Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche is a 'fake'.
If I wanted an answer to this question I would ask it to them, not to you. But since I'm talking to *you* and not to them, the only right question, which you shamefully try to evade, is where is *your* proof that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is behind the slandering against Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche.
The next question you can ask is how is it the NKT's business.
Again, my dialogue is with you, not with them; therefore I have asked *your* to provide a proof in support to *your* defaming statement against Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, which obviously you have miserably failed to offer.
Bottom line, your main concern here is not even to refute the sordid accusations from NKT's side, but above all to slander such a pure teacher as Geshe Kelsang Gyatso while failing to provide any evidence supporting your defamatory statements.
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The next question you can ask is how is it the NKT's business.
Again, my dialogue is with you, not with them; therefore I have asked *your* to provide a proof in support to *your* defaming statement against Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, which obviously you have miserably failed to offer.
Bottom line, your main concern here is not even to refute the sordid accusations from NKT's side, but above all to slander such a pure teacher as Geshe Kelsang Gyatso while failing to provide any evidence supporting your defamatory statements.
Matibhadra,
All your lexical acrobatics is about one thing only - to avoid demanding sound proof from the Kelsangs that can justifies their hurtful and baseless accusations of Tijang Choktrul Rinpoche.
Every demand you have made of me, should peremptorily be directed to the NKT for first accusing then proceeding to print material/allowing to be published to defame Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche. It is reasonable for anyone to make the assumption that the now anti-Trijang stance is an official NKT position since various statements to the effect have been made by NKT office bearers. In addition the Open Letter defaming Trijang Choktrul is posted on the NKT's official website (http://kadampa.org/2017/03/open-letter-international-shugden-buddhist-community-isbc (http://kadampa.org/2017/03/open-letter-international-shugden-buddhist-community-isbc)).
If the NKT's good name has been misused by "bad students" then you are accusing Kelsang Rabten and Kelsang Pagpa who are known NKT teachers, as well as the Deputy Spiritual Director of NKT-IKBU who signed the Open Letter to be bad students. If that is so then perhaps Geshe Kelsang can direct for the Open Letter to be removed and an apology/disclaimer to be published. This has not happened. I suspect it will never happen but why don't you try and ask the NKT website Admin for good measure.
Strange that you feel it is shameful for me to infer that Geshe Kelsang is behind this repugnant affair but its ok for various Kelsangs, office bearers of NKT and official NKT sites to viciously attack Trijang Rinpoche and Gonsar Rinpoche without cause.
Why the double standard unless you're a student of Geshe Kelsang and you act when someone attacks *your* teacher and its ok when its not *your* teacher who is being wrongly indicted.
By the way, we are not exactly in your living room having a quiet tête-à-tête over tea, are we? This a public forum and so all conversations are public.
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All your acrobatics
Then demanding proof of your unwarranted accusations is “acrobatics” in your dictionary, is it?
And cowardly evading giving such proof is what then in your dictionary? The honorable act of a man?
is about one thing only - to avoid demanding proof from the Kelsangs that justifies their hurtful and baseless accusations that Tijang Choktrul Rinpoche is fake.
If you want such proof from them, ask directly them for it, not me. Since it's you, not me, interested in this proof, why should I do your job?
Asking such proof from me is your own acrobatics, aimed at evading your duty to give hard evidence in support of your irresponsible, slanderous statement against Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
Every demand you have made of me, should first be directed to the NKT for first accusing then publishing material/allowing to be published to defame Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche.
Who slandered Geshe Kelsang Gyatso with sordid accusations against him was you; therefore you and only you are responsible for the proof of your sordid accusations.
But instead of honorably offering such proof, as though you had one, you cowardly try to hide behind NKT's own misdeeds, as though such misdeeds would exempt you from your duty.
The fact is, you have no proof at all showing that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is the one behind the slanderous statements against Trijang Choktrul, and therefore you are guilty of slander against the holy lama.
It is reasonable for anyone to make the assumption that the anti-Trijang stance is an official NKT position since various statements to the effect have been made by NKT office bearers and the Open Letter defaming Trijang Choktrul is still on the NKT's official website ([url]http://kadampa.org/2017/03/open-letter-international-shugden-buddhist-community-isbc[/url] ([url]http://kadampa.org/2017/03/open-letter-international-shugden-buddhist-community-isbc[/url])).
That NKT perpetrated such slander is not just an assumption, but rather a demonstrated fact. But NKT is not necessarily Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.
If the NKT's good name has been misused by "bad students" (and this case, you are accusing Kelsang Rabten and Kelsang Pagpa who are known NKT teachers, and the Deputy Spiritual Director of NKT-IKBU to be bad students), then perhaps Geshe Kelsang can direct for the Open Letter to be removed and an apology/disclaimer to be published.
Can he? Since I'm not omniscient I cannot know whether or not he can. But since you claim to know that he can, please prove it.
This has not happened. I suspect it will never happen
It's possible, but this still proves nothing
but why don't you try and ask the NKT website Admin for good measure.
Why should I? It's you, not me disturbed by their slander. Wherefrom did you get this habit of asking others to perform your own tasks?
Personally I could not care less about the slandering statements coming from a bunch of greedy bureaucrats I'm not related to. But if you care, go ahead and ask them whatever you want, instead of asking others to do your job.
However, your request that I ask them this or that is not sincere. It is only your acrobatics to evade your duty to provide proof for your slander against Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.
You lack sincerity; this is your root problem. You and maybe some fake, envious lama behind you.
Strange that you feel it is shameful for me to infer that Geshe Kelsang is behind this repugnant affair
To “infer”? This is a joke. You are mistaking unproved assumption for inference, which is valid cognition. Try reading Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's “Understanding the Mind”.
Anyway, it is not shameful for you to infer, or even to presume whatever. What is shameful is to make slandering statements without proof, and indecently to evade offering such proof.
but its ok for various Kelsangs, office bearers of NKT and official NKT sites to viciously attack Trijang Rinpoche and Gonsar Rinpoche without cause.
Of course the various Kelsangs's attitude is as shameful as yours, because both you and them are slandering holy lamas while lacking any proof. The difference is that they are not part of the current discussion, whereas you are.
The funny thing here is that you lack the decency both to provide proof to support your own slandering and to ask directly the Kelsangs for a proof to support their own statements, rather asking me to do your job!
Why the double standard
No double standard from my side. The difference is that I'm talking to you, not to them; therefore I ask you, not them, to provide proof in support of your own slander.
Meanwhile, the blatant double standard from your side is that while you fail to provide proof for your own slander, you want the Kelsangs to provide proof for their slander, and what is worse, you lack the guts to ask such proof directly to them, but rather want me to do your job! Talk about acrobatics! I call this cowardice.
unless you're a student of Geshe Kelsang and you act when someone attacks *your* teacher and its semi-ok when its not *your* teacher who is being wrongly indicted.
Even being a student of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso I would not support a slander coming from his side, and even not being a student of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso I will denounce anyone slandering him as you do.
Besides, who told you that Trijang Choktrul and Gonsar Rinpoches are not my teachers? The difference between you and me is that if I wanted proof from the
By the way, we are not exactly in your living room having a quiet tête-à-tête over tea, are we? This a public forum and so all conversations are public.
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unless you're a student of Geshe Kelsang and you act when someone attacks *your* teacher and its semi-ok when its not *your* teacher who is being wrongly indicted.
Even being a student of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso I would not support a slander coming from his side, and even not being a student of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso I will denounce anyone slandering him as you do.
Besides, who told you that Trijang Choktrul and Gonsar Rinpoches are not my teachers?
The difference between you and me is that if I make a statement I offer a proof, while you cowardly evade offering any proof in support of your own slanderous statements, rather cowardly asking me to ask someone else for the proof you did not have the guts to ask yourself! What a shameful, unmanly behavior!
By the way, we are not exactly in your living room having a quiet tête-à-tête over tea, are we?
The behavior of self-respecting people, both in private and in public, is that if you make a slanderous statement you have to show the proof, and if you fail to show the proof (as you did), you should apologize and retract from your slanderous statements (which again you fail to do).
This a public forum and so all conversations are public.
So what. But since, as above shown, you lack self-respect even in public, one can know by inference what happens in private!
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« Last Edit: Today at 01:49:12 PM by vajratruth »
You have just edited you previous post. May I suggest that if change you mind you write another post instead of trying to deny and hide whatever wrong was written before.
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« Last Edit: Today at 01:49:12 PM by vajratruth »
You have just edited you previous post. May I suggest that if change you mind you write another post instead of trying to deny and hide whatever wrong was written before.
And what factual change did I make? None.
Matibadhra, there is no benefit in continuing with this debate with you and so I will stop. Time will tell if Geshe Kelsang is behind this fiasco or not, but this much is for sure - the NKT Kelsangs are definitely not qualified to judge Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche or indeed anyone's teacher.
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Matibadhra and Vajratruth,
There can only be a few possibilities -
1. GKG is unaware or senile or have totally lost control of NKT which is being now being run by people with bad intentions;
2. GKG is fully aware and behind this undermining of Trichan so that NKT is safe from students defecting to Trichan who offers a more traditional and authentic brand of Tibetan Buddhism;
3. NKT has cut a deal with the Dalai clique and together they now plan to destroy the Gelukpa or Shukden worshipping Geluk sect;
4. Trichan Chotrul is not the real tulku of Trichan Dorjejang and GKG must speak before the fake tulku gets more powerful;
5. GKG is inflaming the old Geluk-Shukden foundation (Gongsa, Pabonkka, Trichan, Ganchen et al) to take action and group the already fragmented Shukden lamas, because 20 years they did nothing but GKG fought the war himself and took on many sufferings. Later Tsem joined and then Zawa and some others. But the other lamas stood by to see the lineage being ruined.
Matibadhra will defend GKG loyally which is commendable and correct but his loyalty blinds him to reality. Vajratruth is pro-Tibetan lama to see that many things NKT accuse of tulku system is right and must change.
Whatever option you select won't matter because the old Geluk-Shukden lamas will not do anything. This is how the Shukden lineage will end. By people who can, deciding to do nothing the Shukden practice will become insiginificant. They say they will revive when Dalai is no more but if Dalai Lama lives another 20 years then Shukden is a vague memory.
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Matibadhra and Vajratruth,
1. GKG is unaware or senile or have totally lost control of NKT which is being now being run by people with bad intentions;
If this is the case then you should burn all of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's books and teachings because the logic is that he is unattained and is unaware of what is going on.
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2. GKG is fully aware and behind this undermining of Trichan so that NKT is safe from students defecting to Trichan who offers a more traditional and authentic brand of Tibetan Buddhism;
If this is the case then you should also burn all of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's books and teachings for they would be worthless. Why? Because Buddha never taught the "me first" attitude.
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3. NKT has cut a deal with the Dalai clique and together they now plan to destroy the Gelukpa or Shukden worshipping Geluk sect;
So what you are saying is that the NKT and the Dalai "clique" and all are out to destroy Dorje Shugden? Well, if this is the case then there must be a reason for them to act this way for they well know that it cannot be done. Almost four hundred years ago many high lamas in Tibet did the same - try to destroy Dorje Shugden via very strong fire pujas and they failed.
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4. Trichan Chotrul is not the real tulku of Trichan Dorjejang and GKG must speak before the fake tulku gets more powerful;
The main assistant of Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang, Kungo Palden, was primarily responsible for the search for the new incarnation. He consulted Dharmapala Dorje Shugden, who recognised Kyabje Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche as the unmistaken incarnation of Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang. Such sentiment was also shared by many other high Gelugpa lineage lamas, including the late Kyabje Lati Rinpoche and His Holiness the 98th Gaden Tripa Jampel Shenpen. His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama officially recognised Kyabje Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche as the reincarnation of his predecessor on 23 April 1985.
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5. GKG is inflaming the old Geluk-Shukden foundation (Gongsa, Pabonkka, Trichan, Ganchen et al) to take action and group the already fragmented Shukden lamas, because 20 years they did nothing but GKG fought the war himself and took on many sufferings. Later Tsem joined and then Zawa and some others. But the other lamas stood by to see the lineage being ruined.
There might be something to this I agree. To create the causes for bigger things.
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Matibadhra will defend GKG loyally which is commendable and correct
Missed shot. Merely pointing out the lack of evidence that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is behind the defamatory letter has hardly anything to do with “loyalty”.
but his loyalty blinds him to reality.
Maybe you try to read what you comment upon before belching about “reality”.
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Matibadhra will defend GKG loyally which is commendable and correct
Missed shot. Merely pointing out the lack of evidence that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is behind the defamatory letter has hardly anything to do with “loyalty”.
but his loyalty blinds him to reality.
Maybe you try to read what you comment upon before belching about “reality”.
You didn't disappoint Matibadhra. I have been reading your comments for a while. Basically you nitpick to show you have knowledge which you probably do but you somehow avoid addressing the topic being discussed nor comment in any way that is positive and educational.
Have another go at the options raised Matibadhra and let's see if you're capable of honest and friendly discussion. If you find #1-#5 to be rubbish, let's hear something other than your pent up angst.
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You didn't disappoint Matibadhra. I have been reading your comments for a while. Basically you nitpick to show you have knowledge which you probably do but you somehow avoid addressing the topic being discussed nor comment in any way that is positive and educational.
You seem to be personally affected by my comments. My only claim on this thread has been that there is no evidence that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is behind NKT's smearing campaign against other Shugden lamas.
This has nothing to do with showing off knowledge. And if to you avoiding irresponsible, proofless accusations is not something positive and educational, I draw the conclusion that you are a proponent of such vicious attacks.
Have another go at the options raised Matibadhra and let's see if you're capable of honest and friendly discussion.
I could not care less about your idiotic options, and there is no room for honest and friendly discussion with a vicious proponent of proofless accusations.
If you find #1-#5 to be rubbish,
You got it. Speculation in general is rubbish, the idle, stupid activity of mentally deranged people.
let's hear something other than your pent up angst.
Feel free to hear whatever you want, but please avoid getting personally affected.
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Just never ends with this Rabten. Is this how a monk should talk? So fine, you don't believe in this person being the reincarnation but dismissing him as "some guy"? How about we dismiss Rabten as "some white guy playing dress up in a Tibetan costume"? That type of judgement about him wouldn't be deemed very spiritual, and hence applying the same logic to him neither is his behaviour. NKT's representations are really not doing their organisation any favours with this kind of speech.
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Sorry, I obviously meant to say "NKT's representatives are really not doing their organisation any favours with this kind of speech."