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About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: kris on August 29, 2015, 10:09:49 AM
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China has already said very clearly China will not accept the "Middle Way" as it basically means it will take away about 1 quarter of China.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/xi-vows-unceasing-fight-against-tibet-separatism/article7582085.ece (http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/xi-vows-unceasing-fight-against-tibet-separatism/article7582085.ece)
So, after 56 years, everything seems to back to the square one. What will CTA do next? What is the solution to the existing situation? Continue with exile? CTA has befriended the westerns for so many years, it does not seem to work out for them. Should they befriend China?
More importantly for us Dorje Shugden practitioners, are you still going to blame Dorje Shugden for your own failure?
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The Tibetans in exiled are the one losing as long as CTA keep on holding to their stand. China can hold out as long as they want but in the end what can CTA do for Tibetans people?
There are Tibetan lamas staying in China already working for the benefits of people. I don't see Tibetans in China losing their culture.
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It is obvious that it is not because of Dorje Shugden practice that made Tibet lose their land. It is their own politics that are played wrongly that made them lose what they have.
They have already befriend so many western countries to use them to make China be afraid of them. Based on what we see, is that working? The answer, sadly is no.
The CTA does not realise that what they are doing is not correct. This is for a very simple reason, now as the world's economy is growing, the CTA failed to see that China is the country with the growing power. If the would really like to have peace, they should be making friends with China instead of opposing them.
Let's just take really simple things to see if the rest of the world is afraid of China. Recently some countries denied H.H Dalai Lama's entry visa as they are afraid that through accepting the Dalai Lama into their country would create some sort of schism between theirs and China's relationship. Through this it shows that China now holds the biggest "power".
Secondly, if the CTA can really manage their own people, why is there a ban to create segregation among the Tibetans themselves? Causing so many of them to be living in fear as they are not allowed to have their own opinions. They would only have to hear what the CTA says, and follow what they have said. If they do not comply or go against the CTA's wishes, they will be "featured" on a hit list. This is not even necessary.
We are already in the 21st century with so many things that people can think on their own and have their own opinions about. Why does the CTA enforce certain thoughts on the Tibetans causing them to live in fear? With this, it will not even allow the people to grow, what more to say the society of theirs.
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For political parties or politicians including those in CTA, to blame another party is always an easy way out to cover the inability of those in power -- in this case CTA for not bringing Tibetans to anyway compare to 56 years ago. There's no democracy, no development, no improvement for the living of Tibetans...
To blame China for making everything fail and blaming Dorje Shugden practitioners for "cooperating" with PRC government to topple any effort of Tibetan leadership to further Tibetan's cause; would become so much easy and convenience.
How long Tibetan leadership could continue with this play? Let's wait and see. I believe very soon people will see more and more how incapable the Tibetan leadership is in bringing peace, development or hope to Tibet people.
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How long Tibetan leadership could continue with this play? Let's wait and see. I believe very soon people will see more and more how incapable the Tibetan leadership is in bringing peace, development or hope to Tibet people.
What you have said is very true. The CTA just blames the Chinese government and also Dorje Shugden practitioners. What they have failed to think about is that, they have been in exile for so many years, during these years what have they done for their people. Not much I would say.
If they have really done things for the Tibetans that are under their care, all of them will be able to have a passport to go travelling. Monasteries will not split because of a ban that was forced upon the people.
What the CTA cares about is only fame and money. If it is not about that, why do they come up with hit lists that shows others who are the wanted people? They are only doing things like that to get the support from the public to do despicable acts on these people.
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If this weren't spiritual, I'd say this is a case of "divide and conquer". Is this the work of a spin doctor to divert attention from the real issue? As I've said many times, it's an ugly mix of politics and religion that's causing this ill.
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One thing, why no middle way? The middle way is how Lord Buddha gained enlightenment. That is a lot of the basics of Buddhism, not to much and not too little, no extreme love, no hate. That also applies to how someone should approach something or a practice that they do not agree with, they say that they do not like it and why if they please and respectfully just leave it. Do not put a ban on it and insult. Make suffering, to followers and deny it like a big bully with a stick.
After so long, and how there is still so much hate. Why? There are still people suffering in Tibet and people are still covering up and don't care. There is so much information at hand in this time and people just do not want to care anymore. So that is why we are growing actually... We can and we can do more research and due to todays technology, people can just join us by researching and finding us to be right. I hope that makes sense. But I just don't understand how everything bad is still blamed on DS.
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VeronicaSmith, the middle way that referred here is the Dalai Lama's proposal of Autonomy similar to Hong Kong SAR and not really the Buddhist Middle Way. Also, it is up to China to accept. Obviously, as the CTA has very little support internationally and is way past its' usefulness to the Western powers, there is very little support for them and it is easy for China to refuge what they think is originally part of China anyway.
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VeronicaSmith, the middle way that referred here is the Dalai Lama's proposal of Autonomy similar to Hong Kong SAR and not really the Buddhist Middle Way. Also, it is up to China to accept. Obviously, as the CTA has very little support internationally and is way past its' usefulness to the Western powers, there is very little support for them and it is easy for China to refuge what they think is originally part of China anyway.
China is investing and developing Tibetan region. Who would want to give up control? Also in many instances the independence of a country comes from within, the people living there stand up and fight for independence. I think it is no longer possible at this point of time.
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This is really waste of time see what did see CTA do after 56 years to the Tibetan people it cause more harm it do not bring peace and development for the Tibetan who live under CTA control, not just that because of the DS ban it even create disharmony among the Tibetan community.
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Yes, Kelly, it is divide and conquer. They create a ban and draw attention away from the fact that they have not done enough, if anything at all for the Tibetan cause. This ban has caused and is still causing a lot of suffering and anguish to the Tibetans in exile, so much so that they cannot think further than the lifting of the ban. May there be a positive change in the CTA in the coming years so that the ban on the practice of Dorje Shugden can be lifted so that the Tibetans can again look to a way out of their current exile.
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It is due to the karma of Tibet and the Tibetans that the conditions and situation are like this today. Just like during the time of Lord Atisha, just before the Buddhism was almost wipe out by the Moghuls in India, todays' situation are that Tibetan Buddhism are deposited out of Tibet, back to India in the Monasteries and mostly to the West.
With China's developing fast and becoming advance, Tibet itself is receiving this development and finally Tibetan Buddhism is again growing in Tibet itself with support of the Chinese Government.
What this really means is that secularly, the Dalai Lama and the CTA is at its lowest point of relevancy to Tibet.
When the the Dalai Lama passes away, China will definite appoint their own Dalai Lama and with that all will have come full circle in that Tibet has been restored in its former glory, albeit within China.
And Dorje Shugden practice will be free to be practice and will thrive.
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[...] and with that all will have come full circle in that Tibet has been restored in its former glory, albeit within China.
And thanks to China and fortunately within China, rather than within a Western-Jewish colonized and predated Tibet, under the leadership of the noxious Western-Jewish puppet the evil dalie, who empowered by his Western-Jewish terrorism-supporting bosses such as the Jew George Soros would proscribe and persecute the practice of Dorje Shugden as he does in India and elsewhere, and even as a good Muslim and supporter and admirer of Muslim terrorism would burn alive, crucify, and decapitate its followers.
The Dalai Lama and George Soros
By goldenmala
George Soros is a major financial contributor to the Dalai Lama. Below is an excerpt from George Soros, Imperial Wizard by Heather Coffin
Soros is a leading figure on the Council of Foreign Relations, the World Economic Forum, and Human Rights Watch (HRW). In 1994, after a meeting with his philosophical guru, Sir Karl Popper, Soros ordered his companies to start investing in Central and Eastern European communications. The Federal Radio Television Administration of the Czech Republic accepted his offer to take over and fund the archives of Radio Free Europe. Soros moved the archives to Prague and spent over $15 million on their maintenance. A Soros foundation now runs CIA-created Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty jointly with the U.S. and RFE/RL, which has expanded into the Caucasus and Asia. Soros is the founder and funder of the Open Society Institute. He created and maintains the International Crisis Group (ICG) which, among other things, has been active in the Balkans since the destruction of Yugoslavia. Soros works openly with the United States Institute of Peace-an overt arm of the CIA.
He thrusts himself upon world statesmen and they respond. He has been close to Henry Kissinger, Vaclav Havel and Poland’s General Wojciech Jaruzelski. He supports the Dalai Lama, whose institute is housed in the Presidio in San Francisco, also home to the foundation run by Soros’ friend, former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev.
When anti-globalization forces were freezing in the streets outside New York’s Waldorf-Astoria hotel in February 2002, George Soros was inside addressing the World Economic Forum. As the police forced protesters into metal cages on Park Avenue, Soros was extolling the virtues of the “Open Society” and joined Zbigniew Brzezinski, Samuel Huntington, Francis Fukuyama and others.
https://shugdensociety.wordpress.com/2010/07/07/the-dalai-lama-and-george-soros/
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Well of course the CTA will blame the Dorje Shugden practitioners even though it is purely their fault.
So in Due time the CTA would be ostracizing and mistreating more people just because they think the "Devil Worshipers'" will prevent them from regaining Tibet.
China's power is growing by the day, thus it would be useless to oppose them it might even give the Chinese government more reasons to prevent Tibet from achieving independence.
If the CTA is to get back their homeland, how will its inhabitants be treated?
If the CTA is going to keep prosecuting Shugden Practitioners how will their homeland fare?
The CTA certainly won't do well if they keep prosecuting Shugden Practitioners. Thus the best course of action is to stop prosecuting Shugden Practitioners.
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If the CTA is to get back their homeland, how will its inhabitants be treated?
To start with the evil dalie and his minions lack any such thing as a “homeland”. They are just mercenary puppets under Western big money service. Their only “homeland” is the garbage bin of History. The Sakya “royal” family, for instance, are notoriously on the payroll of Rockefellers; is it any surprise that they, denying and betraying their own centuries-old tradition, have brazenly subscribed to the evil dalie's anti-Shugden ban? Such is the power of money, and the corruptibility of petty, disgruntled feudal lords claiming “divine status” for themselves.
Anyway, if the evil dalie and his minions would get back to Tibet, they would treat her inhabitants, specially Shugdenpas, as they already do, as “devil woshippers” and “idolaters”, exactly like US supported Islamic State does in Syria and Iraq, and therefore would pluck their eyes out, skin them alive, and cut their limbs out -- exactly what they used to do in the “good old days” before being peacefully liberated with the help of their Chinese brothers and sisters.
If the CTA is going to keep prosecuting Shugden Practitioners how will their homeland fare?
Very well, in the eyes of Western banking, mining, pharma, junk food, GMO, weapons, press, and other such big money companies. And, in the same way that you never see anything bad in Western big money press against countries such as Saudi Arabia, where people are daily flogged, stoned alive, and decapitated for such things as adultery and apostasy, you will only see good news about Tibet, even though Shugdenpas will be daily skinned alive, have their eyes plucked out, and their limbs cut out.
The CTA certainly won't do well if they keep prosecuting Shugden Practitioners.
The evil dalie and his minions won't do well if they are allowed the exist anywhere outside the garbage bin of History. And why? Just because they are nothing but a scum of criminals ready to sell Tibet to the same big money which has already bought them.
Thus the best course of action is to stop prosecuting Shugden Practitioners.
The best course of actions is for Tibetans in general, including Shugdenpas, to place the evil dalie together with his scum of gangsters where they belong, the garbage bin of History. To get rid of any trace of attachment to theocracy and feudalism, and to become a mature and modern nation, free from the poisonous, destructive, predatory influence of Western-Abrahamic big money together with its agents such as the evil mercenary posterboy, the Muslim fake dalie lame.
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We have read about many countries being colonized in history and even in today's fairly "peaceful" era post WW2, the world has not been able to come together and ensure no sovereignty or country is forcefully taken over by another. Mankind has gone to war and killed and committed countless atrocities in the name of "god". What I'm trying to say is it is not that surprising for CTA to blame one of their deity for what happened/is happening in Tibet.
Mankind has blamed "god" for all kinds of shortcomings but it doesn't make it god's fault. It doesn't stop many from continuing to believe in god and their religious practices. Similarly CTA can blame Dorje Shugden and practitioners of Dorje Shugden but one thing for sure, that does absolutely nothing to help the Tibetan get back their country or improve the lives of Tibetans regardless which sovereignty it is under.
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[...] even in today's fairly "peaceful" era post WW2 [...]
There is no such thing as “fairly 'peaceful' era post WW2” even with quotation marks for peaceful.
“U.S. military forces were directly responsible for about 10 to 15 million deaths during the Korean and Vietnam Wars and the two Iraq Wars. The Korean War also includes Chinese deaths while the Vietnam War also includes fatalities in Cambodia and Laos.”
“In 1995 the Food and Agriculture Organization of the U.N. reported that U.N sanctions against on Iraq had been responsible for the deaths of more than 560,000 children since 1990.”
“The American public probably is not aware of these numbers and knows even less about the proxy wars for which the United States is also responsible. In the latter wars there were between nine and 14 million deaths in Afghanistan, Angola, Democratic Republic of the Congo, East Timor, Guatemala, Indonesia, Pakistan and Sudan.”
“But the victims are not just from big nations or one part of the world. The remaining deaths were in smaller ones which constitute over half the total number of nations. Virtually all parts of the world have been the target of U.S. intervention.”
“The overall conclusion reached is that the United States most likely has been responsible since WWII for the deaths of between 20 and 30 million people in wars and conflicts scattered over the world.”
“And the pain and anger is spread even further. Some authorities estimate that there are as many as 10 wounded for each person who dies in wars. Their visible, continued suffering is a continuing reminder to their fellow countrymen.”
http://www.countercurrents.org/lucas240407.htm (http://www.countercurrents.org/lucas240407.htm)
the world has not been able to come together and ensure no sovereignty or country is forcefully taken over by another.
So true. Even after WWII so many sovereign countries have been or remain forcefully taken over and occupied by US, such as Hawaii (since 1896), Cuba (Guantanamo), Iraq, Afghanistan, Germany (37,704 troops), Japan (48,828 troops), South Korea (27,558 troops), Kuwait (12,485 troops), and the list goes on almost endlessly, with a an official total of 173,335 troops occupying more than 150 countries worldwide, not counting hundreds of thousands of mercenaries and proxy combatants such those from the Islamic State (which US charitably calls “Free Syrian Army”), al-Nusra Front, and other US supported terrorist groups worldwide.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_deployments (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_deployments)
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CTA should think big for the benefits of their Tibetan people. Emphasizing middle way is good if it help the situation but from the current situation is not! China is getting his influences bigger out there and what has CTA did? What type of help has CTA gotten from their effort? Who is benefiting and who is loosing now?
CTA should re-strategize and put their priority for the benefit of their people instead of personal. If all other country that is doing much much better than CTA would want to be friend with China and can see how it benefits each other in long term then what is CTA which has nothing. After so long who has really back CTA and voice up for CTA for their independent?
Tibetan leader should make friend with China for a bigger picture and stop separating their own people with non basis ban of Dorje Shugden. Unite the people and give religious freedom for their own people. It’s so contradicting that the Tibetan leaders are screaming for freedom but they take away their own people’s freedom…. What kind of example are they showing to the world?
Tibetan are not losing their culture under China and in fact China is restoring the monastery in Tibet and will further improve the situation and what are the Tibetan leaders going to say now?
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However the CTA want to blame the actual fact is DS practice is not cause of Tibet independence is already a fact , the reason for the CTA not getting back their own country is mainly because of their own fault for not been able to unite their own people instead the CTA has created a lot disharmony among their own people there is nothing to do with DS practice.
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The common practice by National Governments who cannot deliver is to blame and create division as the saying goes "Divide and Rule".
To divide Tibetans in exile the choice made by CTA is to create segregation and discrimination on Shugden devotees. Who can comprehend this, definitely the International communities will not get involved. It is an internal problem.
Isn't the hurt and discrimination against the Shugden devotees an issue of human rights. Where is the International support?
CTA must rectify their outrageous bullying tactics, spending so much efforts to Ban Shudgen worship but think of new and better ways with their attitude and relationship with China.
Dorje Shugden was never and is never the cause of Tibetan to lose Tibet.
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Sometimes i really do wonder when all this blaming will end. When will the CTA realise that their mistake are because of their own actions, not because of Dorje Shugden.
In my opinion, the logic behind their blaming and the ban itself is illogical. There is so much evidence to show that Doje Shugden is who we think he is and yet the CTA does not lift the ban. And to add on to that they also blame Dorje Shudgen for their failures. How great is that? When will they learn.
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So long as there's no proper education, the ban will be there. That's why knowledge and wisdom is very important. That's why the right was is to educate others about the true nature of Dorje Shugden so that they are do not equate Dorje Shugden to the bogieman.
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It is pretty obvious that all these problems and issues were caused by Dorje Shugden.
I really don't see the logic of how the Dorje Shugden practice has been able to bring forth such problems that Tibet is facing.
The main reason why Tibet is facing such problems is because of the CTA, what they have been doing and what they are still doing is not the right thing to do and is incorrect.
The CTA really needs to think carefully before they do something. They need to think and imagine, what would happen if they did a certain something, what would be the possible outcome and etc.
This should stop them from getting themselves in to deeper trouble and hopefully it will eventually mend the broken ties between China and Tibet.
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Unfortunately, like it or not, there are still many Tibetans that are superstitious and would believe anything that these annoying CTA tell them. But things seem to be taking a turn, especially since the younger generation are educated and are able to think clearly about the demerits of the CTA.
I do hope that the ban on Dorje Shugden will be lifted soon. But even if it doesn't, in another 2 generations, perhaps the ban will no longer be applicable as the older superstitious generation dies and the new ones take over.