dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Blueupali on August 26, 2014, 04:57:12 AM
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A man at the Dalai Lama's Hamburg teaching asked a question during the question and answer about why the Dalai Lama broke samaya with his teachers. The Dalai Lama, looking very composed for the first time with regard to anything Shugden, started to answer, but was talked over by the man, who kept yelling, stop lying.
So, who was this guy? Because I notice that they escorted the man out, and the Dalai Lama took another question about praying for someone's mom....
So, he never answered the question.
Zong Rinpoche pointed out in his advice on Dorje Shugden that sometimes in Tibet people say they do Shugden and don't, and vice-versa.
So, just because someone went to a Shugden center once or something, or even for years to see what's going on, if we are doing witchcraft, etc., then you know, I don't think they have to be Shugden. Obviously, whoever he was, if he would be a genuine SHugden person I would be shocked, because we generally have more skillful means than to talk over a person rather than engage in dialogue.
I'm voting it's a set-up. Opinions?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1d2ImUbH1g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1d2ImUbH1g)
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I think the guy did a good job. Whatever answer the false Dalai Lama would have given would have been a lie or an evasion. The false Dalai Lama clearly doesn't have an answer to this question because it's true - he's breaking his Guru devotion and showing the worse example of a Buddhist disciple in history. What was more important was that he was told this face to face and also told to stop lying directly. Unless he is utterly deluded this must affect his mind on some level. I believe he's in denial at the moment and must be made to see the truth if the ban is to be lifted.
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Lineageholder,
Thank you for your input. I am only saying that while protesting outside is good, having the DL take a question (which was not done spontaneously in the one DL teaching I was in 13 years ago--- there were certain people who got to ask--- there were people who screened the questions and who talked), then if the guy yells over his answer this could make us look bad. It's not skillful. We have never been given a chance for real dialogue and generally such questions are not even allowed to make it to the floor. This one does and the guy, in a room full of people who aren't even Buddhists in many cases, and who all paid 158 euro to hear Mr. Smile is Charming and Actions are Harming speak, are presented with someone who makes Shugdens look unreasonable.
I am just reminded how Shugdens were blamed for a triple murder, but I don't think there were any Shugdens involved okay.
Other people can be involved, it doesn't have to be Shugdens.
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His name is Kache Marpo
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Oh? Kache Marpo:)?
Is he ISC?
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Blue Upali,
I was at the Hamburg demos and got to speak to a couple of the False DL's supporters - they already think we are unreasonable. Whatever actions are being done by the ISC are aimed at the false DL, not his supporters. His supporters are angry with the ISC, of course, because they are 'attacking' their icon and its usual when you are attached that anger will arise, but it's not ISC's intention to make the false DL's supporters angry. Only the false DL can lift this dreadful ban and so if he's told that he's breaking his Guru devotion and to stop lying, perhaps some shame will arise in his mind.
Who is going to tell him the truth when his millions of supporters hang on his every word and he's on an ego trip anyway? He will never engage in dialogue with Shugdenpas because he has too much pride. Someone has to get an opportunity to tell him the truth face to face and that's what ISC are trying to do.
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Well, I am a little concerned about the methodology in this case. I am for bringing attention to what the DL is doing, but I am not for making him look reasonable (on TV) while we look unreasonable (on TV).
I think if they ask a question and he answers.... okay.... then say he's lying after he finishes talking or something, otherwise, he looks good (like he tries to do) and we look bad.
I am not sure all the ISC is really trying to bring attention to the DL and what he is doing wrong, but some of them almost seem to want to make him look better and us look worse. This was no exception to that.
THey really played down with the press in the U.S. most significant and pertinent info about the ban, and might be leading people to think the DL isn't such a bad guy. Some people say they are with SHugden, but they aren't really doing Shugden, just like Zong Rinpoche said. The ISC has had some really unusual choices for people who spoke in the U.S., given that they seemed really unable to point out the things that are severe human rights violations.
Then, I am just saying, you know, the DL people were willing to take a Shugden person's question, and then the "Shugden person" is yelling at him.... I mean normally the DL doesn't really allow us to speak at all, and this time he STILL managed not to speak about it, and they made the uh "Shugden" person leave.
I am saying it looks staged. The Dalai Lama's mouth appears incapable of truth, do we expect his more fanatical followers to be any more up front?
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I would be more concerned about the Welsh couple who had spent £800 to attend the Dalai Lama event in Hamburg:
They then asked why the Dalai Lama had not answered the Shugden Buddhist's question, were immediately surrounded by the Dalai Lama's security and then had to leave the building.
So even the Dalai Lama's followers are starting to question him.
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I agree with Shugden Library. Poor people!
Just to let you know that the False Dalai Lama's people didn't vet the question and agree to answer it. The person just went to the mic and asked the question. The FDL and his people didn't know what was going to be asked.
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Interupting the Dalai Lama is not helpful; it is rude and antagonises people. I agree with the question but we need to maintain a respectful attitude at all times. I wanted to hear more of an answer than he was able to give. Hopefully, the next time we get to have a better dialogue and ensure that the ticket cost is well spent.
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I agree with Icy. I am for bringing this to people's attention, but I am for being skillful. Protesting outside is excellent. Asking a question, getting a recorded response would be good. If he lies, then we can always have it on record, and then bring it to the press later that he is lying in his super expensive teachings.
I think it would send the wrong message, to people who are new. Not everybody is a DL supporter who goes to those things and somebody might get complimentary tickets--- so we need to make skillful presentation. The one teaching I went to by the DL (like first and last people.... was cured in one teaching) happened to mostly have not a whole lot of his followers--- of course this was years ago in a place with mostly Hindus....
People who don't understand this issue will think, wow these guys are heckling in the teaching....
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I agree with Shugden Library. Poor people!
Just to let you know that the False Dalai Lama's people didn't vet the question and agree to answer it. The person just went to the mic and asked the question. The FDL and his people didn't know what was going to be asked.
So, how would we know that? The false DL people tell you that:)?
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"Yes, yesss Blueupali, yes yesss." - Kache Marpo
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Okay, next time you guys get the mic with the DL (if there is a next time) then let him answer with a lie and THEN tell him to stop lying, okay. We can get him on record lying to us in a teaching in the west is GOOD okay--- then if one of his niave new people looks it up later then maybe they will work it out okay?
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The Dalai Lama got the message very clearly. Probably in the last 79 years there were no other person passing his message so clearly to him.
And the audiance got the message that there must be something wrong behinde the scene with the Dalai Lama.
Very good.
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The Dalai Lama got the message very clearly. Probably in the last 79 years there were no other person passing his message so clearly to him.
And the audiance got the message that there must be something wrong behinde the scene with the Dalai Lama.
Very good.
I am all for protesting the Dalai Lama's ban, and for exposing the side of the Dalai Lama and his government that the world is only beginning to see. But on this particular post, I would agree with Blueupali. It was an opportunity to engage with the Dalai Lama and catch him out on his lies, and to show to those who are still sitting on the fence, that the Dalai Lama's answer (which was cut short prematurely) and hence his reasons for the ban, lack logic and substance. As it turned out, that opportunity was lost. After all, shouting 'stop lying' was already being done outside the arena.
I think enough time have passed to show that it is futile to try and 'convert' Dalai Lama supporters to see the criminality in the Dalai Lama's actions. If they were looking for facts, they would have stopped supporting his ban a long time ago. Similarly, I think it is pointless to wait for the Dalai Lama to change his mind or to be shamed into moral conscience (per Lineageholder's point). But there are more than two sides to the conflict and a 'third side' must surely be those who have not entered the equation thus far, but could very well influence the speed of the desired outcome. And it is this third side that we have to be mindful of for they have to be won over.
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The person asking the question to the dalai lama was not a heckler but a kind bodhisattva showing us how to behave with a person deceiving millions.
In a public arena such a Hamburg (and any of the public events he teaches) the weight of credibility is with the man on the stage who people have paid to listen to.
Instead of answering directly the 2 questions he was asked the dalai lama (like any politician) tried to change the subject to a generalization that Buddhist monks do not lie. (In which case of course Trijang Rinpoche didn't lie about Shugden!)
When I heard the questioner interrupt him at that point and say "Stop Lying!" I was inspired!
In these posts an incredible, unbelievably incredible, deference is shown to a person who has cause unprecedented suffering - so I really do wonder about people's motives here.
In my country, the UK, when politicians are interviewed publicly by an experienced and seasoned presenter, as soon as the questioner smells evasion, obfuscation or any hint of lying, they interrupt the person talking.
It does not matter that they are the Prime Minister etc. If they lie they need to be exposed. That's called democratic exchange.
This dalai lama has never experienced this in his entire life - everybody around him bows and agrees with his every whim.
Please, let's get some reality in to our questioning of this charlatan!
Good luck to the questioner in Hamburg and may there be many, many more.
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Talking over someone is democratic exchange?
All I am saying is that anyone can say they are with Shugden.... anyone can show up to check out how things are going at a Shugden Center and pretend like they practice. Then if they aren't with Shugden, and get the mic, they can try to make us look like we are unreasonable people who don't even have anything to protest about.
Rabten seems to bring up good points when he talks, but the ISC has chosen people who really downplayed the important points of the ban to the mainstream press, which might not make people understand that we have any big thing to protest. Then some guy, in a teaching where people pay a lot of money, asks the DL a question about Shugden. First, this is the first time the DL looks composed about Shugden. We saw him yelling at a nun about spirit worship before--- she allowed him to answer though, that it was spirit worship.
Then we had that on tape.
But if you combine some people who play down the ban with someone who won't let the DL answer the question that was asked, "why did you break commitments....?" but yell at him, then we appear to be the ones that don't like dialogue. The DL was calm, unlike when the nun talked to him, which to me does look like maybe he knew the question was coming this time, though with the nun he was taken off guard.
Of course, I am not saying that everybody who protests with the ISC is really a Shugden person.
Just like the people who murdered the monks in the 1990s--- how would I know--- if they say they are, so what? Zong Rinpoche brought up to his students that sometimes in India and Tibet people who don't do the Shugden practice say they do, and some who do say they don't.
If someone makes us look bad, and we have good people to choose from, then pick someone good....
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Wow, this is great stuff. :D
I'm a newbie to this forum and the controversy and am just pro-dharma, nothing else.
What I see is that the exchange between the heckler and H.H. Dalai Lama presents a great opportunity to (once again) show the world in general and the Tibetan people living in India in particular, what a Dalai Lama we have.
Why doesn't someone put this video up to the "monks don't lie" bit, together with the video(s) I have seen where the Dalai Lama has claimed there is no ban. and you will have a cracker of a video for the Tibetans in exile!
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Talking over someone is democratic exchange?
What matters is that he is stopped from lying. That is why the questioner did a good job.
Blueupali, do you really think after 20yrs of opportunities to engage, the false DL will now, in a public arena, with an off-guard question, will suddenly start telling the truth?! Of course not. Absurd idea.
In public whenever he opens his mouth on this subject he lies. So the questioner did a good job in telling him directly to stop lying.
He is also showing that in this modern age powerful people who lie in public should be stopped as soon as possible.
Yes, that is democratic exchange - and it can be rough and tough for the public figure if they are tying to cover-up something.
This false DL has never been exposed to this kind of scrutiny and it is time we saw more of it!
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Well, a. we don't know if he was really caught off guard, because like I'm saying, not everyone who says they are doing Shugden really is.
b. he isn't stopped from lying. He keeps lying, to stop him from lying we need to make sure people understand the point and also have someone who does a good job asking the question and answering him...
if we catch him on video while he lies, the people in the audience can hear the reply, and see that he's lying later.
Making us look bad, which can be done by someone who is or not with Shugden, isn't welcome.
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It's not about how we look. That's a worldly concern. ISC's message is for the false Dalai Lama himself, not for his followers, and was delivered very effectively and bravely by this 'heckler'.
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Lineageholder, it's not a worldly concern when how we look affects the opinion of others, and the message we are trying to deliver.
Since not everybody who says they do the practice really does it, then letting somebody at a mic, might be counterproductive if they are not skillful. when have we gotten a dialogue? When has there ever been anything but censorship about us? The Dalai Lama knows he looks bad, some people who are really with him may want him to come off looking better than he really does. At NKT Centers for instance, anyone is welcome, which is great. But just because someone goes to a place doesn't mean they are really with Shugden--- look at the NKT "survivors." Do you really believe they think they are in a cult after being ordained, being there 7 years etc. if they didn't already think so to begin with?
We need to be careful who is speaking for us, or it will not help the ban, because we will get someone who either makes us look bad, or downplays the issues, or "converts" to the Dalai Lama upon seeing him.... I mean... please guys, let's do be careful.
So in summary, being concerned about how others perceive us is not worldly when the motive is bodhichitta, we want to make sure that people come to the Dharma so most people don't run around naked these days like Milarepa did, even the Milarepa emanations (like Gyaltrul Rinpoche, recognized by the 16th Karmapa as Milarepa) has always worn clothes anytime I have seen him. So, you know, Milarepa has no worldly concerns about clothing, but the beings of this day must have needed him to wear clothing in order for them to wake up so so far he has been doing so, at least that I am aware of. It helped the beings in old Tibet for him to show up naked and singing songs.... so he did.... but the situation we are in determines the presentation; the pure motive of wanting people to understand our position so our protests can be effective, and so the ban can really come down is what we are after here.
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Lineageholder, it's not a worldly concern when how we look affects the opinion of others, and the message we are trying to deliver.
Since not everybody who says they do the practice really does it, then letting somebody at a mic, might be counterproductive if they are not skillful. when have we gotten a dialogue? When has there ever been anything but censorship about us? The Dalai Lama knows he looks bad, some people who are really with him may want him to come off looking better than he really does. At NKT Centers for instance, anyone is welcome, which is great. But just because someone goes to a place doesn't mean they are really with Shugden--- look at the NKT "survivors." Do you really believe they think they are in a cult after being ordained, being there 7 years etc. if they didn't already think so to begin with?
We need to be careful who is speaking for us, or it will not help the ban, because we will get someone who either makes us look bad, or downplays the issues, or "converts" to the Dalai Lama upon seeing him.... I mean... please guys, let's do be careful.
So in summary, being concerned about how others perceive us is not worldly when the motive is bodhichitta, we want to make sure that people come to the Dharma so most people don't run around naked these days like Milarepa did, even the Milarepa emanations (like Gyaltrul Rinpoche, recognized by the 16th Karmapa as Milarepa) has always worn clothes anytime I have seen him. So, you know, Milarepa has no worldly concerns about clothing, but the beings of this day must have needed him to wear clothing in order for them to wake up so so far he has been doing so, at least that I am aware of. It helped the beings in old Tibet for him to show up naked and singing songs.... so he did.... but the situation we are in determines the presentation; the pure motive of wanting people to understand our position so our protests can be effective, and so the ban can really come down is what we are after here.
Sorry but I just don't get your obsession about "is this guy 'doing Shugden'". For your information I know that person as a sincere practitioner. Does that change things? Not really.
He did a great job and you seem to miss the point about exposing this false Dalai Lama.
May I ask have you been on a demonstration? If not, I can thoroughly recommend it as the best way to remove your concerns about "looking nice". It's a great purification and mental enema, if you'll forgive the analogy.
People are not stupid. When they see a protest they know that something is wrong for the protesters. In this case it's this lying lama.
When they see this false DL being interrupted in public and told directly to stop lying they will understand he is not beyond criticism.
If you check the responses over three public talks when the DL was asked questions you'll notice in the first one, when the DL answered there was hysterical clapping, whistling and general celebration that the 'nasty questioner' had been silenced.
In the second one the questioner was thrown out with some celebratory laughter (but not as much as at first) and in Hamburg what happened when he was thrown out? Silence from the audience. They were actually confused about what was going on because it seemed an over the top response from the DL's people. Why can't a public figure take a bit of heckling? What's he so weak for that he has to rely on 'heavies' pushing people out of the door? The minds of the general public are starting to see a different image of this lama...he is not beyond normal public intercourse. He is not infallible. He is not universally adored as a god of peace.
For me all that is positive. It means the general public are getting real about this man.
You are concerned about how people perceive us? They only need to believe his lie that we worship a spirit - then it doesn't matter how pure we are we shall be wiped off the face of the earth like the Cathars in the only Crusade against non-muslims. We are already demonized beyond recogntion by the lies.
Please try going on a demonstration. I live in Asia but I am going to be demonstrating in the US soon. Why can't you do the same?
For me it is a priority. Is it the same for you? (to quote Milarepa)
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Blueupali, I was just teasing you in my Kache Marpo post. I agree with where you're coming from, but I also understand there are some sharp actions that can sometimes seem unproductive. There is a broader picture.
I personally feel it would have been much more productive to simply state:
'You speak about tolerance, harmony and respect, yet the protesters have provided thorough evidence that you support the opposite actions against people. People want to hear your teachings, but the protests are disruptive. Can you please have an open dialogue with them and disprove their evidence? Do you believe a mere difference of opinion about Dorje Shugden validates the persecution of people's human and religious rights taking place against these practitioners?'
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Blueupali, I was just teasing you in my Kache Marpo post. I agree with where you're coming from, but I also understand there are some sharp actions that can sometimes seem unproductive. There is a broader picture.
I personally feel it would have been much more productive to simply state:
'You speak about tolerance, harmony and respect, yet the protesters have provided thorough evidence that you support the opposite actions against people. People want to hear your teachings, but the protests are disruptive. Can you please have an open dialogue with them and disprove their evidence? Do you believe a mere difference of opinion about Dorje Shugden validates the persecution of people's human and religious rights taking place against these practitioners?'
Psylotripitaka, you sound like a Wisdom Buddha. This is exactly what we should say to the Dalai Lama when we have the closest opportunity next time. But again he might not directly answer these questions. Remember he is a politician, he will dodge these points like the last time.
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Please try going on a demonstration. I live in Asia but I am going to be demonstrating in the US soon. Why can't you do the same?
For me it is a priority. Is it the same for you?
Well, you know, it's funny you ask, because I certainly did try to go to a Protest. Somehow, some of the um "Shugden" people (which I am not buying, because I have seen them in action in the NKT for years) managed to keep the first round of U.S. ones pretty quiet, and there's no real way to contact the ISC unless you are in the know, which I think around where I live right now, most people in the know are the ones that replaced the Shugden Sangha. So, um, Geshe-la is very old, and you know, we don't have as much money as the Dalai Lama to throw at things, nor have we given the Kalachakra to the masses over here--- so we can't get people to do our every bidding, like taking down a practice at whatever cost.
So, they had much smaller protests than needed to be (I was prevented because of their logistics not being able to get it together).... I don't think we would still have a ban right now if everyone from the Dalai Lama school were up front about their affiliation.
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Blueupali, I was just teasing you in my Kache Marpo post. I agree with where you're coming from, but I also understand there are some sharp actions that can sometimes seem unproductive. There is a broader picture.
I personally feel it would have been much more productive to simply state:
'You speak about tolerance, harmony and respect, yet the protesters have provided thorough evidence that you support the opposite actions against people. People want to hear your teachings, but the protests are disruptive. Can you please have an open dialogue with them and disprove their evidence? Do you believe a mere difference of opinion about Dorje Shugden validates the persecution of people's human and religious rights taking place against these practitioners?'
I agree with how you say that. I am all for protesting, and would have loved to protest the Dalai Lama, to help all living beings. Like I said, we need to make sure we have the right people speaking for us, and so somebody who can say like what you are saying, would be good. I don't trust the Dalai Lama AT ALL so I don't think if he is composed on Shugden issues that he is surprised, that the 'ISC" person is going to really be doing necessarily a helpful job for the Shugden community, and if I say I don't think the Dalai Lama is surprised that I also don't think there is any logical chance for his being omniscient (though even my telephone could technically be a Buddha) but let's just say, I'm not buying every single thing in the ISC right now.
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Please try going on a demonstration. I live in Asia but I am going to be demonstrating in the US soon. Why can't you do the same?
For me it is a priority. Is it the same for you?
Well, you know, it's funny you ask, because I certainly did try to go to a Protest. Somehow, some of the um "Shugden" people (which I am not buying, because I have seen them in action in the NKT for years) managed to keep the first round of U.S. ones pretty quiet, and there's no real way to contact the ISC unless you are in the know, which I think around where I live right now, most people in the know are the ones that replaced the Shugden Sangha. So, um, Geshe-la is very old, and you know, we don't have as much money as the Dalai Lama to throw at things, nor have we given the Kalachakra to the masses over here--- so we can't get people to do our every bidding, like taking down a practice at whatever cost.
So, they had much smaller protests than needed to be (I was prevented because of their logistics not being able to get it together).... I don't think we would still have a ban right now if everyone from the Dalai Lama school were up front about their affiliation.
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Blueupali, forgive me but you sound confused. And also lacking in faith in ISC and NKT. Sad.
A demonstration would do you good. And it's not that difficult to find out if you really want to when and where they are happening. I don't buy your excuses.
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I lack faith in the Dalai Lama. Sometimes we have people who come to the NKT who don't really seem to ever intend to do anything other than become "survivors."
I lack faith that the ISC has always made the best choices. Some of the choices the ISC have made come from the NKT.
The NKT's main guru is very old and retired, and basically has to be very careful to protect his life so he can continue writing unsurpassed Dharma books.
I have a great deal of devotion for Ven. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso; to me he is Manjushri. However, he is not managing the NKT.
It is not a mystery that the Dalai Lama has said he wants to wipe our practice (that of Dorje Shugden) off the earth. It is also not mysterious that DL tells his followers that we are engaging in non virtuous actions, also he has taught people about how bodhisattvas are allowed to lie (like by misdirecting a hunter about which way a deer went). Okay. But according to this "logic" we are doing a practice which is very nonvirtuous, though the very best Gelugpa lamas did/do this practice. They can misdirect us, right, away from this practice because we are not "smart enough" to do what their um (gag) infallible guru said people should do, so it is okay, right for them to come to NKT centers, pose as people who really are interested in actually being a genuine practitioner, but the whole time trying to convince everyone we are a cult. It's fine, right? I mean, according to them it's not like we have dharma that they are interfering with.... so just lie and act like Geshe-la thinks that medicine is bad, or that they have been brainwashed into other nonsense that the Ven. guru Geshe-la absolutely didn't teach. Geshe-la's dharma is unmistaken; protesting the Dalai Lama is great, but if we have a bunch of guys running around trying to cause problems, who demonstrate their unwillingness to bring the right points at the right times (like some of the ISC spokespeople from the U.S.--- left a lot of the really important stuff out about the actual human rights violations). Then they want to ask for these same people to have a dialogue with the DL? Okay, how about with Sonam Rinchen or somebody.... not somebody who will let the Dalai Lama off, or make us look bad....
To clarify: I like that we protest, I love Ven. Geshe-la (founder of NKT) but I do not for one second believe we have people who are uninterested in making the Dalai Lama look good, to protect his reputation, to help destroy this practice, who are in the ISC and NKT.
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I lack faith in the Dalai Lama. Sometimes we have people who come to the NKT who don't really seem to ever intend to do anything other than become "survivors."
So what? We don't know anybody's intention except our own. What is the point of thinking like this. It sounds paranoid, sorry to say.
I lack faith that the ISC has always made the best choices. Some of the choices the ISC have made come from the NKT.
Again. so what? At least ISC is applying practical action to raise awareness and to put the spotlight on the false dalai lama. And why shouldn't the NKT make choices - it is part of the ISC...?
But according to this "logic" we are doing a practice which is very nonvirtuous, though the very best Gelugpa lamas did/do this practice. They can misdirect us, right, away from this practice because we are not "smart enough" to do what their um (gag) infallible guru said people should do, so it is okay, right for them to come to NKT centers, pose as people who really are interested in actually being a genuine practitioner, but the whole time trying to convince everyone we are a cult. It's fine, right? I mean, according to them it's not like we have dharma that they are interfering with.... so just lie and act like Geshe-la thinks that medicine is bad, or that they have been brainwashed into other nonsense that the Ven. guru Geshe-la absolutely didn't teach.
This sounds to be very far-fetched to me....double-agents in Dharma Centres! Why bother. Have you met any; or is this just your own imagination working overtime? Please tell us your practical experience.
but if we have a bunch of guys running around trying to cause problems, who demonstrate their unwillingness to bring the right points at the right times (like some of the ISC spokespeople from the U.S.--- left a lot of the really important stuff out about the actual human rights violations). Then they want to ask for these same people to have a dialogue with the DL? Okay, how about with Sonam Rinchen or somebody.... not somebody who will let the Dalai Lama off, or make us look bad....
First off, there isn't anybody running around trying to cause problems except the false DL and the CTA!
What were the violations the ISC left out? Why don't you publicize them yourself?
I don't know Sonam RInchen. Have you contacted anybody to put his/her name forward to appear publicly asking questions to this false lama?
To clarify: I like that we protest, I love Ven. Geshe-la (founder of NKT) but I do not for one second believe we have people who are uninterested in making the Dalai Lama look good, to protect his reputation, to help destroy this practice, who are in the ISC and NKT
OK you believe something I find amazingly difficult to understand. Would you care to elaborate with observable facts please and not just your imaginings?
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Interupting the Dalai Lama is not helpful; it is rude and antagonises people. I agree with the question but we need to maintain a respectful attitude at all times. I wanted to hear more of an answer than he was able to give. Hopefully, the next time we get to have a better dialogue and ensure that the ticket cost is well spent.
I fully agreed with Icy. That’s a great question to ask His Holiness Dalai Lama. However, it is just a pity that he kept interrupting until HH is not able to answer the question.
I am not sure if it is a setup. It could be because this is making the Shugden practitioners look bad and unprofessional. ISC has been very professional and peaceful during the protests. This is not their style.
I hope the next time we get to have a good dialogue on this Shugden conversation. Even if HH is lying, we get to have him recorded and not just left it unanswered like this time.
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I fully agreed with Icy. That’s a great question to ask His Holiness Dalai Lama.
Even if HH is lying, we get to have him recorded and not just left it unanswered like this time.
Please take a good look at the many recordings, videos etc and you will see that he is lying. That is not in dispute.
What is needed is to show others that he is just an ordinary person and that his lies can be refuted by anybody with a small amount of logical thinking.
Right now he obfuscates and confuses with long complicated explanations. What we need is for the ordinary people to feel they can question his reasoning. So telling him publicly that he must stop lying was a very very good way of helping people to see this. Like I said before, no cheering and clapping happened when this questioner was thrown out of the talk - indicating people are now beginning to think there must be something valid about what the questioner is asking.
More of this please!
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I lack faith in the Dalai Lama. Sometimes we have people who come to the NKT who don't really seem to ever intend to do anything other than become "survivors."
So what? We don't know anybody's intention except our own. What is the point of thinking like this. It sounds paranoid, sorry to say.
I lack faith that the ISC has always made the best choices. Some of the choices the ISC have made come from the NKT.
Again. so what? At least ISC is applying practical action to raise awareness and to put the spotlight on the false dalai lama. And why shouldn't the NKT make choices - it is part of the ISC...?
But according to this "logic" we are doing a practice which is very nonvirtuous, though the very best Gelugpa lamas did/do this practice. They can misdirect us, right, away from this practice because we are not "smart enough" to do what their um (gag) infallible guru said people should do, so it is okay, right for them to come to NKT centers, pose as people who really are interested in actually being a genuine practitioner, but the whole time trying to convince everyone we are a cult. It's fine, right? I mean, according to them it's not like we have dharma that they are interfering with.... so just lie and act like Geshe-la thinks that medicine is bad, or that they have been brainwashed into other nonsense that the Ven. guru Geshe-la absolutely didn't teach.
This sounds to be very far-fetched to me....double-agents in Dharma Centres! Why bother. Have you met any; or is this just your own imagination working overtime? Please tell us your practical experience.
but if we have a bunch of guys running around trying to cause problems, who demonstrate their unwillingness to bring the right points at the right times (like some of the ISC spokespeople from the U.S.--- left a lot of the really important stuff out about the actual human rights violations). Then they want to ask for these same people to have a dialogue with the DL? Okay, how about with Sonam Rinchen or somebody.... not somebody who will let the Dalai Lama off, or make us look bad....
First off, there isn't anybody running around trying to cause problems except the false DL and the CTA!
What were the violations the ISC left out? Why don't you publicize them yourself?
I don't know Sonam RInchen. Have you contacted anybody to put his/her name forward to appear publicly asking questions to this false lama?
To clarify: I like that we protest, I love Ven. Geshe-la (founder of NKT) but I do not for one second believe we have people who are uninterested in making the Dalai Lama look good, to protect his reputation, to help destroy this practice, who are in the ISC and NKT
OK you believe something I find amazingly difficult to understand. Would you care to elaborate with observable facts please and not just your imaginings?
Okay, well, I will give you some food for thought. When we see the panel discussion from Carol of the NKT survivors, do we buy that she was ever intending to really be NKT? Or do we notice that she is most likely just coming to cause problems at the Center, act like she's in a cult to everyone afterwards? I don't know Carol, but I definately have met people at NKT centers that act like they are interested in being in the NKT while we are inside the Center, but then "befriend" newer people (like me) who show up, try to get us to go anywhere but the NKT, ask me if we really should be doing this practice if H.H. DL doesn't like it (Shugden) etc.. Then when we are at the Center and in front of resident teachers, they say something else. Please note that the survivor Carol was both ordained and taught and stayed in the NKT she claims for 7 years. This means to me that we sometimes don't pick the best people. I think it would be difficult for Venerable Geshe-la to oversee every teacher of every class over all these years, at least not without displaying miracle powers, because he has had to stay in hiding in order to keep from being killed by fanatical Dalai Lama people. Furthermore, he is no longer the manager of everything, as he is retired.
I notice the number of such people who try to convert "newbies" or otherwise act unconvincing about Dorje Shugden (like being scared of eating the tsog for the first two years they were there) have increased in the last 3 years or so.
As far as contacting the ISC to suggest they request Sonam Rinchen to dialogue with the DL, I have to say that it is quite difficult to actually email the ISC. It was a little disconcerting that the protests went from WSS to ISC but without warning. The San Francisco NKT Center's newsletter only said they were taking a break from classes for a few days, no reason given why. The same at the Los Angeles Center, it just said the class during a protest time was cancelled. There were only one hundred to 150 people at the protests in a city as large as Los Angeles? How would people have known about them? I don't regularly check the DL's webpage because I don't follow the guy. I have emailed the WSS on more than one occasion offering information, offering to protest, offering to help write if they need it, but they have never responded at all.
The spokespeople they picked for the first protests did not refer to major aspects of the ban to the American press; they played it down a lot, and I notice they didn't refer to Dorje Shugden as an enlightened diety, but just a 'diety' which even Thurman and the DL say.
Anyone can say anything, anyone can join a Center, and even people who become NKT survivors are allowed to teach or manage.... how would Geshe-la oversee that when he at the head of the top ten most wanted (please live for a very long time Geshe-la) dead people by the DL people.
So, okay, I guess if they are willing to kill someone, then I wouldn't be so surprised that they are showing up sometimes and lying about their affiliaton (DL people), though I wasn't expecting it at first.
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Blueupali Your description of people at NKT centres doesn't fit anything I see in my world. Sorry but your thoughts seem a little far-fetched and impractical.
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Well, maybe you aren't someone that they proselytized at? Like if you had been there awhile, are already ordained, or something. They don't walk up and say 'hi we would like to take over your center,' to long term disciples....
However, sometimes the people at an NKT Center have broken away to form their own group. The account below is from the New Kadampa Truth blog.
The NKT has sometimes had people who formed cults (not following Ven. Geshe-la, obviously) such as one in Germany, where an NKT ordained person started a personality cult:
"He was originally ordained as a monk (Kelsang Tashi) by Geshe Kelsang. However, his main allegiance was not to Geshe Kelsang but to a self-styled Lama called Dechen/Carola in Germany (who broke away from Geshe Kelsang and the NKT and started a personality cult). He was her right-hand man, who helped her remove the center and its assets (a castle) in Berlin from the NKT. A lengthy legal case followed and was found by a German court in favor of the NKT. However, the decision was unenforceable in German charity law so Carola's organization kept the castle for a while. Finally, due to them going bankrupt, the castle is now back with the NKT and running as a Dharma Center.
A few years after leaving with Carola, Tashi finally got disillusioned, left Carola and re-ordained as Tenzin Peljor with the Dalai Lama. There seems little doubt that he feels justified in his obsessive campaign against the NKT due to his loyalty to the Dalai Lama and disorientating personal history with Carola."
http://www.newkadampatruth.org/behind-the-lies/#Foundation (http://www.newkadampatruth.org/behind-the-lies/#Foundation) for the Preservation of the Mahayana Tradition (FPMT)
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OK Blueupali I see where you are coming from.....the internet!
The people in the example you mention, and others I have known about who did similar things to these Germans, at the beginning were Geshe Kelsang's students - no doubt about that (although now of course they might deny that I suppose).
Later, for reasons only they know, their motivation changed and they began to follow other ideas/teachers and eventually stopped being a student of Geshe Kelsang.
I know personally (or did know) a fair number of these people. To me they did not seem like double-agents who had joined NKT to subvert it - they simply changed their minds later for some reason - in my view.
Your concern that there are people deliberately setting out to subvert from the beginning isn't based on sound reason or observation.
Isn't it the case that faith communities naturally have 'fall-out' - ie. people who leave later and do something else? Why should NKT be different?
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Whoever it was that stood up to the Dalai Lama in front of 7000 people in Hamburg. Good job, more power to you. It's not easy to stand up in front of that crowd and go 'against' everyone in the room. It's like going to Vatican city, and scream at the pope he's a liar... you'd probably receive a slap from each person in the crowd and die by the time you reach the exit.
It's easy for us to say 'If only he would say something more than Dalai Lama stop lying'... heck, I wish he actually had a more 'intelligent' exchange with the Dalai Lama.
BUT, I think as observers we're forgetting some important points, that being in the position in front the dalai lama, 7000 anti-ds people AND with a limit of probably less than 2 minutes for each question asked to the DL... there really is nothing much you can do or try to attempt conversation with the DL. So the next best thing? Get the attention of everyone, which is what this guy did in the hall.
Good job, I'm sure we will be seeing more of this in the future.
BTW I know some people are saying that the demonstrations are giving some bad reputation to DS practitioners, to a certain extent I too have such opinion (especially if I met with some fanatical ISC member). But just think about it, being in the front line is always risky, the results is like a double edged sword... if it's played well it will be to our favor, if not, then we lose. So far, the ISC have been doing a good job, they don't offend people during demonstrations, they don't give the authorities a hard time, they make sure everything is done according to law and order. So, at the moment, all is good.
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Blueupali,
The meaning of life is the refinement of consciousness. If a particular situation is too difficult or giving rise to delusion, we need to take a break and concentrate single-pointedly on a virtuous object.
In group settings there will always be challenges of social politics. If we learn to look at the situation realistically, we will stop wining, steel our will, and put great energy into cultivating virtuous realizations. If we are not doing that, and find we are just wining, we need to examine the reason we are engaging those objects and whether it not it is benefitting our main purpose - attaining realization.
We're told over and over that the real problem is self-grasping. But I understand there is a practical element to navigating the social conventional tapestry. Nonetheless, if we cannot train our mind in these situations, rather than wining about how we're a victim of others, we need to separate from the situation and stare our own self cherishing and self grasping in the face. Then we can return (or not) to a situation and rather than lose ourself we come to regard everyone as kind for aiding us in the cultivation of realization.
Too much thinking and not enough meditation is destroying our opportunity to gain profound realization.
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His Holiness Dalai Lama had refused to have a formal and proper dialogue with Dorje Shugden followers since the inception of the ban. What makes us think that HHDL would entertain questions pertaining to his lies, hypocrisies, discrimination towards Dorje Shugden followers, infringement of human rights, double standards concerning reliance of spirit i.e Nechung is permitted whereas Dorje Shugden is not permitted since HHDL had claimed that Dorje Shugden is a spirit, and so forth? The only way is create as much attention as possible like what ISC had been doing with the peaceful demonstrations. The world must know the false Dalai Lama! We must zealously and continuously feed the world's mass media with news and information about Dorje Shugden followers' plight and HHDL's hypocrisies and all the negative effects arisen from the ban on Dorje Shugden. Only when the pressure is put on HHDL,
Many Thanks to the heckler for his courage to confront HHDL with a question on His lies!
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Yes, generally speaking, the time for controlling and wrathful actions has come!
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... only when enough pressure is put on His Holiness Dalai Lama would HHDL react positively! A balloon will burst when air is continuously fed into it! ...
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OK Blueupali I see where you are coming from.....the internet!
The people in the example you mention, and others I have known about who did similar things to these Germans, at the beginning were Geshe Kelsang's students - no doubt about that (although now of course they might deny that I suppose).
Later, for reasons only they know, their motivation changed and they began to follow other ideas/teachers and eventually stopped being a student of Geshe Kelsang.
I know personally (or did know) a fair number of these people. To me they did not seem like double-agents who had joined NKT to subvert it - they simply changed their minds later for some reason - in my view.
Your concern that there are people deliberately setting out to subvert from the beginning isn't based on sound reason or observation.
Isn't it the case that faith communities naturally have 'fall-out' - ie. people who leave later and do something else? Why should NKT be different?
I am not just coming from the internet, I have personally seen similar issues, where the people actively try to dissuade people from coming to NKT centers, talk against Geshe-la, talk pro-Dalai Lama, and then turn around and start teaching. So what is going on--- is that they are lying to us so they can pretend to be members of the NKT. THen maybe they can pretend to others that they do Shugden.
And to respond to psylotripa, it's not about winning, it's about who is representing us to the mainstream press, if we have people who lie their way into an organization, pretend to like the organization, but recently (or concurrently) try to get other people to leave the Shugden practice, (and I have seen this, and experienced this with my own eyes) then we just need to be more careful. Like when the U.S. spokespeople played the ban down, I know anyone is welcome in the NKT and there is no discrimination to join the teacher training and other programs.... during the empowerment of Dorje Shugden it is OPITIONAL in the NKT to take the heart committment. Like Ven. Geshe-la says, everyone has choice in dharma.... and I definately notice that Geshe-la and other valid teachers always give choice.
So, just like when in the panel discussion when one of the ISC people was talking about being a lawyer, and doing legal representation for a Tibetan who had been beaten by DL fanatics, this Tibetan kept asking him for proof he really a Shugden practitioner. Right there with the monk, okay. Not everyone who shows up at a Shugden Center has to be a Shugden person. Taking anyone's word for it, with very little investigation of them is really a bad idea, not because we have to win or lose, but because if we are not skillful, we will end up with someone pretending to go along with us, gain audience with the Dalai Lama for us even perhaps, and then really drop the ball on how they approach him. A strawman from the loyalist DL camp.
And no, I don't think anybody like Tenzin Peljor was with us in his heart, which is like most of the survivors. They are here to subvert our school, cause issues, and can be very difficult to deal with as it stops the real dharma from being taught in the center, so that little cult leaders can emerge, people can go with them, and then miraculously, people can switch to the Dalai Lama a few years later. Please, do not be so niave, put the "there aren't any Dalai Lama people in NKT-Centers" cool-aide down; it is a derivative of the "everyone be quiet and let the Dalai Lama do whatever he wants to your lineage cool-aide."
Do you want someone who can't bring up points like torture (for instance a Shugden man had his fingers cut off for his family's doing Shugden) by people like the U.S. spokespeople, but who say, oh, people can't go into "certain shops." It sounds like downplayed, especially since the "certain shops" are those owned by Tibetans in the settlements they live in, and they have to walk in many cases upwards of 15 miles both ways to even buy food. These are the same spokespeople who also failed to mention that the "diety" Shugden is enlightened; like I'm saying, even the DL says "diety" about Shugden. These protests in California were not well-publicized, the ISC had no way to contact them, the WSS didn't get back to me ever, and the protests switched from WSS to ISC without warning.
The issue is coming from the niave Americans who think nobody would lie to us. People we keep telling the DL to stop lying. The students follow the teacher, so please get my drift here, that sometimes people following the DL might be lying.... and saying they are doing Shugden people.... just be careful and make sure we get a valid person speaking for us and representing us, please.
If we get a dialogue with the DL, please request Sonam Rinchen to speak on our behalf, rather than some random semi-educated western person who claims to be a Shugden person. I need someone I trust to be with Shugden to talk.
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Blueupali,
The meaning of life is the refinement of consciousness. If a particular situation is too difficult or giving rise to delusion, we need to take a break and concentrate single-pointedly on a virtuous object.
In group settings there will always be challenges of social politics. If we learn to look at the situation realistically, we will stop wining, steel our will, and put great energy into cultivating virtuous realizations. If we are not doing that, and find we are just wining, we need to examine the reason we are engaging those objects and whether it not it is benefitting our main purpose - attaining realization.
We're told over and over that the real problem is self-grasping. But I understand there is a practical element to navigating the social conventional tapestry. Nonetheless, if we cannot train our mind in these situations, rather than wining about how we're a victim of others, we need to separate from the situation and stare our own self cherishing and self grasping in the face. Then we can return (or not) to a situation and rather than lose ourself we come to regard everyone as kind for aiding us in the cultivation of realization.
Too much thinking and not enough meditation is destroying our opportunity to gain profound realization.
Okay Psylotripitaka,
Let me explain something to you. If we want to learn dharma, if we want to be able to have our dharma purely, then it would be really super helpful to take down the ban.
If we have people who are not maybe as honest as they need to be, and we notice this, and we see that they could subvert bringing down the ban, then it is logical to say something. It is the wrong teaching, no offense, to say to someone 'well your lineage seems to be being taken over by the Dalai Lama. Your group that is trying to stop the Dalai Lama seems to have people loyal to him that want to do a lot of the talking for people right now, according to you. But you know if you go and meditate instead of saying anything that would be really good for your practice. Sorry, but it wouldn't be good for my practice, because my practice is what they are trying to end, and replacing our voice with someone who will help the Dalai, is not my idea of wisdom. (Rabten seems to talk well though--- he brings up the right points). Again, Sonam Rinchen would be good to request to ask to represent the Shugden population to the DL, should we ever get an audience....
To assure you, I do happen to practice every day, and I happen to focus on on holy objects of refuge such as Buddha Dorje Shugden.
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Blueupali OK previously I was trying to believe that your ideas were just from readin things and not having any first-hand experience. Now you are saying that you know people who are deliberately infiltrating our Centres. And that maybe the people ISC choose are like this.
No. Too much 007.
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Blueupali OK previously I was trying to believe that your ideas were just from readin things and not having any first-hand experience. Now you are saying that you know people who are deliberately infiltrating our Centres. And that maybe the people ISC choose are like this.
No. Too much 007.
Well, I have never been too much into TV, but especially not 007. I was very surprised when this happened (these people trying to convert me to other dharmas, some teaching at my local Center at the time, some about to start teaching). So, yes, I would say though, if we notice that Venerable Geshe Keslang heads the top of a list of most wanted (please live for a long time Ven. Geshe Kelsang) dead Shugden people by the DL's CTA, then we can say, okay, that seems like a little too much 007 too. I mean, who ever heard of killing Buddhist lamas? Well the fifth Dalai Lama certainly had no problem with it. Do you think people who want to know a lama's whereabouts so they could kill him would be upfront about it? Why is he at the head of the list anyway? Because he directly said the DL was lying? Well, okay, so, do you think the DL's students are anymore honest than their teacher (some may be, like the ones who are new and just like his books--- they may not even count as DL students). When we are dealing with the ego of this so called Chenresig emanation (the DL) and people who think we are destroying Buddhism and all living beings with our prayers, then do you think people like that are very logical? Because there is no logic manifest in the DL's teachings, except that of his remaining supremely in charge. His image is important for his student's to maintain, so you know, just consider that since anyone can join the NKT, the DL people think we are bad and lying to us to destroy our tradition is fine (like if a hunter wants to know which way an animal went--- point the wrong way) then lying to destroy our tradition would also be fine.
Consider, the "Dharma" of the DL is very mixed, it is not an authentic transmission from the time of Buddha, so his followers are following a cult leader. Since he says fine words, they believe him, and they think we are really bad evil people for this practice of wrathful Buddha Manjushri (Dorje Shugden) which they mistake for a spirit. So, misdirecting what we do, logically, to them, is like misdirecting a hunter toward his prey in the woods.
We need to be careful who we pick, because a duplicitous teacher would logically have duplicitous students.
Not 007, that is just a DL trick to make us not talk while they take as many talking spots as possible in the ISC so they can make the Dalai Lama come off looking like a cherub. Be careful who you trust.
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Blueupali Sorry but I am not buying into your vision.
I have lived in NKT Centres for 25 years. I have never had experience of what you are talking about. In Dharma Centres it's not difficult after a while, getting to know them, to find out a person's real intentions.
If you have details of people in NKT teaching and at the same time telling people not to follow Geshe Kelsang but to follow the Dalai Lama then wouldn't it be kind of you to let NKT know about that?
And if you don't then why wouldn't you do that?
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Well empowerment,
I am so already on the page of telling the NKT about it, which I originally did in Oct. 2012, writing to tell the General Spiritual Director and the National Spiritual Director of the U.S (Gen Jampa) that we were being read zen to in one of the GP classes and that the resident teacher mentioned to another GP class that we might not always have Dorje Shugden as our Dharma Protector.
I did hear from the U.S. spiritual director to please write the Ed. Council reps, but like the WSS, I have never heard anything at all from the Ed. Council reps. Nor have I heard from the GSD. I wrote them a lot by now, we have about 200 plus pages detailing issues both in and out of class with proselitization to other dharmas, to not following the curriculum, etc.. The resident teacher of the San Diego Center was kind enough to respond, in an email, for me not to continue writing anyone but her. When I did not comply, I found myself and my small daughter completely excluded from our "NKT" community. Apparently, one is not allowed to point out mixed dharmas.
I also wrote the WSS, but they have also ignored everything I have said; I submitted a paper to them to publish as they had asked on their site for submissions that detailed the Dalai Lama's hypocracy, human rights violations, etc., but they never got back to me. It did subsequently get posted on DS.com, though I toned down the last paragraph to include pure view.
I have noticed these issues of people who seem keen on the idea of changing the dharma protector, or at least trying to convince me that our practice is bad.... (PFWP teacher told me well, what difference does it make if we don't have Shugden as our Protector, we just need to go to enlightenment, so what does it matter?). I don't happen to get to enlightenment without Dorje Shugden, when I said that I would leave the NKT unless they followed Shugden, she started crying. I don't think some of these people are with us, and if you really have been around for 25 years then I can't see how you wouldn't have noticed. (I can understand not talking about infiltrators normally, as it would distract from dharma, but when they are teaching then you know.... like no way.)
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I think asking the question is good and great.
Accusing the Dalai Lama well, even if it is true, if we say it out that way, we will lose the neutrals or people who might even consider coming to pay homage to Dorje Shugden? Yeah people in the middle will think we are extremists.
If we start this trend of heckling, if the anti DS supporters heckles Geshela or Trijang Dorjechang or other DS lamas, won't that be most unfortunate.
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P.S. To empowerment, the RT that said we might be switching Dharma Protectors was an RT that immediately preceded the one that told me to write only her.
Just to clarify, this was said in the Kid's class-- I get the distinct impression this group wants to end the Shugden practice this generation.
If one of these sorts heckles as an ISC, well then that is not what we need, okay. Nor do we need these sorts of people who couldn't care less about Shugden (except that they would love to end the practice) to somehow end up speaking on the ISC's behalf, because really, we need someone we can trust. I think we should request Sonam Rinchen to dialogue with the DL if we are given an option, because we have got some serious anti-Shugden people at least in the U.S. who teach... and probably elsewhere....
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P.P.S To empowerment, if you have lived in NKT Centers for 25 years, then it would seem you have been with the organization for awhile, so they might not be attempting to convert you (the big ban went into affect in 2008) and I arrived in 2009. You have been here too long, you see, for them to try that. My concern is that they may not always be upfront, go to the ISC, and try to take the mic, which either could
1. play down the ban
2. misdirect what we consider to be the big issues
3. be a strawman if we get to talk to the Dalai Lama
4. misrepresent us some other way, such as by making the DL look reasonable while we look unreasonable, such as if we ask a question, do not wait for a reply and start yelling. This doesn't look reasonable, okay. The person who did that though, might have just been following a suggestion from someone they trusted, who maybe was't with us. I don't know who is with us or not all the time, which is why I say to have caution.
I will direct you to an article I wrote on the Dalai Lama giving bad samaya, so you will understand, I think his students are following a misguided man; I understand they believe they are helping all living beings by making the DL look good, but you know, sometimes people have destroyed stupas when they belong to other religions, because they thought Buddhists were idol worshipers. It's not good karma, okay.
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/guest-writers/tantric-guru-or-cult-leader-can-your-lama-give-samaya/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/guest-writers/tantric-guru-or-cult-leader-can-your-lama-give-samaya/)
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Blue Upali -
i'm choosing to believe you're sincere and not a troll. it's difficult for me to say this without coming across as patronising, but please believe that this is not my intention and that i, too, am being sincere: you sound as if you are suffering from paranoia. some of the behaviour you have described yourself engaging in would certainly be interpreted by most people as unbalanced, and it is not surprising to me that you have not received many replies to your various letters. i am not trying to be rude or insensitive here - all i would ask is that you simply consider the possibility that you are reading too much into all this and that the conspiracy you say may not, in fact, exist outside your own mind. like 'empowerment', while i do see the occasional issues one would expect in any large spiritual organisation, i fail to see anything even approaching the subterfuge you appear to perceive in NKT Centres.
for example - and please believe me when i say this because i am telling you the truth - i know the ISC representatives from the US demos very well. they are personal friends i have known for many years and i can tell you categorically that they are faithful Dorje Shugden practitioners to their core, and that they have the full backing and support of ISC and of our Teachers (who you have said you have faith in too). secondly, i also know the heckler well: he too is a dyed-in-the-wool Dorje Shugden practitioner of many years! he too had the full backing and support of ISC and of all the people you might want him and his actions to be checked out by! i have done MANY Dorje Shugden pujas with all these people, and i have never, ever, once - in all my many conversations with them, whether about the ban, the protests, our Dharma practice, or any other topic - had cause to doubt their utter, steadfast commitment for a second.
i cannot state this strongly enough. i can tell you that you are, in this case, completely wrong. i really, genuinely, hope this helps you to stop and take a step back and reassess. i don't think your train of thought about all this is very healthy for you.
now as to whether or not it was effective, or he should have allowed the False DL time to answer - absolutely not! he did EXACTLY the right thing, and his action was much, much more powerful than if he'd allowed the FDL to carry on lying. for all the reasons people have said above, this action was a triumph. if you disagree with it, you disagree with ISC's tactics - which is fair enough, you have freedom.
peace.
AC x
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Thanks Atisha's Cook for clearing the air.
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AC--- I don''t agree that someone who sits throught DS puja is necessarily sincere, and nope, it's not paranoia, I know what happened at my local center--- lots of lies involved from people working against us on the one hand (trying to convert others) and teaching on the other. I am just saying with the ISC US representatives that they do not seem very sincerely able to get the ISC point across. I think that it is likely that they do not want to get the point across, and maybe someone in the ISC doesn't want to get the point across. Why didn't the ISC make sure that more people would be at the Protests? I didn't know about them, until I saw it posted on DS.com.... the California Prostests were the smallest ones, I think, of any. If we want people to come, perhaps tell more of them? Perhaps instead of just saying class is cancelled, we could say why class is cancelled?
Also why did the U.S. spokespeople play down all the important points about violence against Shugdens, the actual difficulties of the ban, including it being more than just certain shops etc., and why not refer to Dorje Shugden as enlightened? I notice a particular subset of our "teachers" do not think we will stay with Shugden, it wouldn't bother them if we don't stay with Shugden, etc. These are usually the same people that don't say Shugden is a Buddha, an enlightened being, etc. So if they downplay the ban and won't explain Shugden is enlightened to the mainstream press, then I don't trust them, or think they are good spokespeople.
The thing with the DL DID look staged to me, because the DL is never calm about Shugden, like when he yelled at a peaceful nun. So now, we yelled at him before he could answer our question. I don't think a lot of ISC people want this to go to well for us, because they don't want to make the DL look bad.
I trust Geshe-la; I didn't say I have faith in just random people.
I am just pointing this out, so that maybe the right people can speak, rather than the ones who won't help. Everyone says everyone else is sincere, but like I said I experienced NKT so called teachers teaching mixed dharmas in our class and saying we might switch dharma protectors.
I don't trust everyone I see, and I it's not paranoia, it's just logic.
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Blueupali Sorry to disagree with your points again.
Atisha's Cook's post has lots of good advice in it and I agree with what he says.
I do not recognize the ISC or NKT that you are talking about and I personally know, like AC, the people involved; they are all sincere followers of our Dharmapala.
The vision you promote is not one I recognize. Also I cannot find anybody else who agrees with your view. You may have had some personal experience that has led you to say these things but that does not invalidate the much larger personal experience of the many other people I know who cannot agree with your idea.
So maybe it's useful for yourself just to say this is only your own idea - but it isn't helping anyone else here as far as I can see.
Your remarks are not constructive or beneficial for the activities of stopping the ban and returning to harmony within Buddhism free from political pollution, in my view.
The responses (or lack of them) that you received before from the organizations should also give you room to think and possibly reconsider your view. It could be mistaken eh?
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Empowerment,
Let us consider a few facts that bear on the ISC/NKT. You say you are in the NKT at least 25 years? Okay then you would understand the following to be odd, given that the study programs in the NKT are supposed to follow Geshe-la's books, only include (for in class Geshe-la's books--- read what you like elsewhere) and not mix dharmas, okay, and we are supposed to be following Dorje Shugden, I understand, as Heart Jewel is the main practice, and is the essence of the New Kadampa Tradition. So then it's odd when at an NKT temple:
1. Mixed transmissions including directly reading a zen text in class
2. Happy face at the heart meditation (Je Tsongkhapa's pure doctrine???)
3. Mention that we may switch Dharma Protectors in the class
4. Proselytizing to switch to other schools from people who were teaching classes and also people who were imminently teaching classes, when I wrote the GSD and Ed. Council reps that this happened, I received no response from either the GSD or Ed. Council reps. The NKT is remarkably silent on this issue. That's odd, given that we are for keeping the transmissions pure, and so if the GSD and Ed. Council don't have a problem with this, then I am just wondering what is going on? Is the NKT planning to switch dharma protectors? Because if so, I need a Kundeling Rinpoche school or something... the same people who picked the strange teaching staff who they allow to mix dharmas are some of the same ones that make a big show about flying from far away to protests, while people who live nearby and wanted to keep Dorje Shugden in the NKT as the Dharma protector, would not necessarily be informed.
Obviously if we have people who are uninterested in maintaining the NKT as Geshe-la would want it but are promoting more mixed (Dalai Lama vision) dharmas and also appear unconcerned about our Protector's staying our Protector, then I wonder if maybe some of the same not-so-into Shugden people might not try to talk for the ISC for us?
Why would that be a problem? Why, I guess I would want to make sure that we make our point to the world about the Dalai Lama and his terrible ban, but if these guys are talking and won't call Shugden enlightened but just the deity, won't mention the torture, explain the forced signature campaigns, but just say it's apartheid because we can't go into certain shops, why, that makes the Dalai Lama look like a hero who probably didn't even mean for that to happen! And then if another such guy interrupts his answer when he is lying (that's all he does, let him get caught in it) then why SHUGDENS look unreasonable rather than the Dalai Lama! Didn't one of the ISC spokespeople in California forget to email DorjeShugden.com back about a 1000 dollar donation that DS.com wanted to make. Gosh it's funny how they can make the Dalai Lama's ban look like it's really way less bad than it is, forget to take a donation, and then FINALLY when the Dalai Lama, looking very composed for the first time with anything regarding Shugden, starts to answer the question, the heckler, (who you are saying is as sincere as these other spokespeople?) interrupts and makes SHUGDENS look like WE won't dialogue with the Dalai Lama rather than the other way around. It's been the other way around for a very long time, that we ask for dialouge and the DL won't give it. Looks bad, for him, but NOW he looks good, and oh, maybe one of these guys that can't remember to follow up on a donation or bring home key points of the ban, maybe THOSE GUYS could represent Shugdens to the Dalai Lama if we ever got an audience.
Now, I know there are a bunch of people who claim to do this practice right now, but there is no way in hell that they do. Are these FPMT? Whoever they are, go home and leave us alone. Stop Dharma Policing Buddhism, DL dudes.
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Dear Blue Upali, I agree with you that if non-Kadam Dharma is being taught at your centre then NKT Office needs to be told about it and they should respond.
As for the conspiracy theory stuff about changing Dharma Protectors, I can tell you that I've been an NKT teacher and practitioner for twenty years and that's not going to happen. As Atisha's Cook has said, I have also known the ISC spokespersons as friends for a long time and their commitment to Dorje Shugden and the cause of lifting the ban is beyond question. I'd like to request you to stop posting these kinds of comments as they are not helpful and they create doubts in people's minds. We've got enough problems tackling the false Dalai Lama and his ban without dissention amongst Dorje Shugden practitioners. Working together in harmony will achieve results so please help by being constructive.
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Lineageholder,
If people are insincere, and if the NKT does not respond for 2 years, even on request of email receipts, then the only doubt I have is whether we can rely on people who are coming right now to be as honest as they say from the NKT.
It's okay, apparently with the management of the NKT not to teach the Geshe-la books, for an RT to say in class we might change Dharma Protectors?
Well, then when that same organization provides spokespeople from the U.S. who downplay the ban, fail to mention key points like torture, and do not talk about Dorje Shugden as a Buddha, or enlightened, but just as a deity, and also forget to get back to DS.com concerning a 1000 dollar donation, then I definitely doubt their sincerity. I am saying, Geshe-la and the DL are both quite old. Some people think we shouldn't do Shugden; the DL lies, do you really think his students are more sincere?
Requesting I do not speak in order not to cause doubts is not a good argument. I am trying to raise awareness that we need people talking that we can rely on and also that it looks funny that the protests were downplayed (Los Angeles only had a 100-150 or so people? We have a ton of NKT Centers in the U.S. and in California, but like I said, the NKT newsletters only mentioned that the classes were cancelled, not cancelled because of protests. I am on an NKT study course in Los Angeles by correspondence, but heard nothing about it. I wrote the WSS, after hearing about it on DS.com, but the WSS did not get back to me, just like they never got back to me whether they had even received the following article for submission, later posted on DS.com:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/the-legacy-of-the-not-so-great-5th/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/the-legacy-of-the-not-so-great-5th/)
Neither the WSS can get back about protests, they change from WSS to ISC without warning, the first protests are quite small because some people didn't know (I am quite vocally pro-Shugden obviously, as opposed to some prominent people who show up at these things.) I have no voice in the ISC or WSS, neither the WSS or the Ed. Council from NKT respond on whether they have even received emails. Something seems up with that. And I can prove all of that.
So I am not going to be quiet about it, because it doesn't look right to me.
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Blueupali Your tone in this thread is not at all cooperative with any of the other participants who have tried to engage with you. You repeat the same things again and again but we have all read them before.
I understand now why you receive no replies to your emails - because no reply can satisfy you!
People have listened to what you have to say - they prefer to differ as to what to do about your information. Why not just accept that's how it is?
Maybe you believe that you are the only one who knows the real truth - but now you have written to everybody about it and they seem to not agree with you - isn't it time to just let go of this?
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Empowerment---
If the NKT won't reply, not even the Ed. Council reps to say what emails they received about mixed dharmas, even though the NSD told me to write them, then I think it is safe to say we have a breach of contract with Ven. Geshe-la's tradition's Internal Rules going on within the NKT. The NKT people that talk for us, in some cases may not be representing an actual true Shugden position, as we seem to have many people who are not Shugden, even some of them are teachers. If no one replies, then perhaps no one really wants to notice that we definitely for the last at least 2 years have had some very impure (anti-Shugden) anti-Geshe-la dharmas going on, so if they will not reply, then to me, it looks like we have a rather large problem in the NKT.
If similar people, who won't bring up the points about torture and did not refer to Dorje Shugden as an enlightened being when they had the mic with the mainstream press are our spokespeople, then I am concerned that perhaps not everyone who is coming to the ISC is really with Shugden in their hearts, or a Shugden lama either.
I am completely co-operating with this forum in that I am being truthful. The NKT doesn't seem to want anyone to know they have had some issues with anti-Shugden people teaching, impure dharmas etc.? Then that is a problem for the interface between the ISC and NKT, which could lead to people misdirecting the ISC to help the DL keep his amazing good reputation in the press, while we come off looking bad, or making improper points. I think we are supposed to have free speech, yes? So I am in harmony with the Buddha because I am speaking truthfully and without malice and I am upholding Dorje Shugden's heart commitment because I am trying to bring forth points about how we are possibly being misrepresented, so that we can correct this, so that we can engage in helpful dialogue that would help bring this ban down.
Pray tell me, why were the first protests so difficult to predict by regular NKT members? Did someone not want our voices heard? If all of us should have known (and somehow I didn't until 24 hours prior to the L.A one from posts here that we were even having protests, despite being a member of the NKT on an FP study program, then why were the protests so small? I would have LOVED to be at them; how many other people didn't know about them?)
Why was the WSS not polite enough to even respond that they had received the article I later had published on this site? Why did not anyone from the WSS email to say that the ISC would now be in charge of the protests?
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whenever I feel being misunderstood and treated unfair I do some breathing meditation until the world becomes balanced again. What great good karma we have to have met breathing meditation.
breath-in
breath-out and count "1" >:(
breath-in
breath-out and count "2" :(
breath-in
breath-out and count "3" :-\
breath-in
breath-out and count "4" ;)
breath-in
breath-out and count "5" :)
breath-in
breath-out and count "7" :D
breath-in
breath-out and count "8" ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
and now I can clearly see that my problems are not important compared to all the suffering in the world.
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Well breathing meditation is really quite basic and we can all realize that our problems will be much less if this ban comes down.
I'd like to point out that we get a lot of people, when we are pointing out what the DL and his followers are doing, that advise us to do such as Godhi.
This is the wrong teaching, you see, for this instance. It is not bodhisattva activity to fail to do wrathful actions when necessary. So, if you don't like it when people who play down the ban and drop the ball are called out, well feel free to go and breathe, okay. But if you were a Jew in Nazi controlled Europe, and it were just before your grandmother were to be rounded up to be taken to the gas chambers, and you could still get her away, would you listen if someone said don't act to relatively help your grandmother. Count your breath while we round her up and kill her.
The Ganden lineage is at stake here. The Dalai Lama is completely dishonest, and gives the Kalachakra to 10000s of people, who follow do whatever he wants like a bunch of donkeys. We seem to have such people sometimes in the NKT, which in turn affects the ISC; if we let people speak for us that aren't making the valid points to the mainstream press, wouldn't call Shugden enlightened to the mainstream press, etc., then what we need to do rather than just breathing is act to help notice that we need more sincere people. Anyone can SAY they are doing Shugden, and even show up at your house and pretend to do his puja for you, according to Zong Rinpoche, but they may not be really doing his puja, they may not really do Shugden. That's what he said. Be careful who you pick to talk so we can be effective in wanting to bring attention to the injustice of the Dalai Lama, rather than making us just look bad....
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everybody disagrees with you (yes - including Geshe Kelsang!)
deal with it.
we all get it: you don't like the ISC spokespeople and you think you know better than everyone - including Geshe Kelsang - about everything. you won't accept any kindly offered help or advice. that's your choice. i for one am not wasting my time reading any more of your paranoid rants.
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Geshe Kelsang disagrees with me? What is your evidence?
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Geshe Kelsang is a highly respected member of the ISC - of course his advice is sought on things as important as the choosing of spokespeople!
he was delighted with the work the spokespeople in the US did.
you're out of touch. you expect NKT Centres to advertise ISC demonstrations; why would they? if you are so well-informed you will know that they are two separate organisations, albeit organisations who share many members.
once again, with respect, having read through your comments on this thread it does not surprise me that ISC has not felt it necessary to inform you, personally, of the demonstrations in your locality.
please try to understand: you have a delusion, here. you are out of line with most people in ISC, and apparently most in NKT too. you hold a unique, and very strange, view. i advise that you change your mind.
that's it, now - that's all you're getting from me. if it's not enough, there is nothing more i can do for you.
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I thought this was a Forum, not a therapy session? We appear to have lost the thread of the discussion...
The ISC is not the NKT. As you can see from all the photographs from the demonstrations these past 8 months there is a broad mixture of Shugden Buddhists, with over one quarter being Tibetan.
The false Dalai Lama is a liar, and for Dharma to survive, let alone flourish, the people of this modern world must wake up to this fact... even his own supporters.
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Geshe Kelsang is a member of the ISC? Are you sure? I don't have any evidence of that.
And how would I know what he said? Or how it was asked?
I don't think I was the only one who wasn't informed about ISC demos--- because otherwise with as many NKT people that we have in the area--- then I think more would have gone.
I think we have the wrong people talking for us in the U.S., at least so far. Rabten seems like he does a good job; if Geshe-la allows people to talk who drop the issues:) then maybe Geshe-la is trying to let the Dalai Lama people hang themselves--- I only thought the DL was best avoided in the past--- after being proselytized at and lied to by his students at my NKT Center--- who then turn around and pretend they are teachers in the NKT--- well, I will say my opinion of the Dalai Lama has plummeted from their behavior.
Answer me this; why would the WSS be the only way a person could sign up before the first protests--- and no one bothers to tell anyone it's now ISC they need, and instead of Kelsang Pema who brings attention to all the right issues, that point to us having something legitimate to say, we get people who can't seem to remember the basic points? It looks funny from over here:).