dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Big Uncle on May 03, 2014, 08:26:05 AM
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Here's an interesting description of a Mahasiddha...
Mahasiddha (mah?siddha, from maha meaning "great" and siddha meaning "adept"; Tibetan Wylie: grub thob chen po or Wylie: tul shug) is a term for someone who embodies and cultivates the "siddhi of perfection". They are a certain type of yogin/yogini recognized in Vajrayana Buddhism. Mahasiddhas were tantric practitioners, or tantrikas, who had sufficient empowerments and teachings to act as a guru or tantric master. A siddha is an individual who, through the practice of sadhana, attains the realization of siddhis, psychic and spiritual abilities and powers. Their historical influence throughout the Indic and Himalayan region was vast, and they reached mythic proportions as codified in their songs of realization and hagiographies, or namthar, many of which have been preserved in the Tibetan Buddhist canon. The Mahasiddhas are the founders of Vajrayana traditions and lineages, such as Dzogchen and Mahamudra. The mahasiddha tradition may be conceived and considered as a cohesive body due to their spiritual style, sahaja; which was distinctively non-sectarian, non-elitist, non-dual, non-elaborate, non-sexist, non-institutional, unconventional, unorthodox and non-renunciate.
Based on this explanation, could the Dalai Lama be using Mahasidddha-like intention by instituting this ban? This is considering that the Dalai Lama does not really stand to gain in any way. He literally put his reputation at stake here...
Just food for thought...
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I have heard about a theory that many of the great Lamas are working together in this degeneration age to spread Dharma, and each lama has a specific role in this great plan. Using the ban on Dorje Shugden is one of the ways to spread Dharma. An issue like this will make people to be curious to find out more about what happened...
As Big Uncle said, HH Dalai really have nothing to gain in this whole setup. It is totally against His teachings, and there seem to be totally no sense in implementing this ban. If this is not part of the great plan, then what is?
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In Tibetan Buddhism through tantric practices, extraordinary men and women attained enlightenment and magical powers abiding in the state of perfected level of meditative realization, inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion, of emptiness and skillful means disregard conventions and penetrate to the core of life. These Mahasiddhas showed us a way through human suffering are spontaneously one with the divine. They lead unconventional lives which include some of the legendary renowned Buddhist masters namely Milarepa, Tilopa, Naropa and Marpa.
Who are we to judge the HH Dalai Lama if he is or not a contemporary amongst these legendary masters and is beyond convention in instituting the ban. If we wish to maximise on the profits of these crazy wisdom best we go along with the divine play with a pure mind and appearance.
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His Holiness is without a doubt an enlightened one.
His actions just speak for themselves.
What appears to be contradicting our perception of Him as an enlightened one is the ban over a Buddha... Why would a Buddha ban another Buddha?
Yet the analysis over the actions of His Holiness shows that in his whole life there has ever been only one appearing contradiction, only one: the ban on Dorje Shugden.
And while getting about talking about the ban, explaining it etc... His Holiness has said contradicting things, illogical things, silly things, false things... Why?
Why would a being of supreme wisdom, skills and intelligence be demonstrating perfection ALL THE WAY, ALL THE TIME, except when it comes to the topic of the ban versus Dorje Shugden?
Why if not to talk to our intelligence and logic and demonstrate to us that the ban is not a ban but a method to bring about the conditions for us to propitiate and actually practice Dorje Shugden.
If we had better merits, His Holiness and Dorje Shugden would not have to use this rather unusual and rather confusing method... But the fact is that we only have the merit to get into spirituality through scandal, bans, defamation, "taking-sides" etc.... because that is where our mind is...
In the current case, let's note that whether one is supporting the ban or not, they are participating to the growth of Dorje Shugden in people's minds, and everybody is getting to collect/create merit along the way...
Now, if this is not the work of a Mahasiddha in action, I mean what is it?
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I 100% believed that HH is a Mahasiddha.
An act of a Mahasiddha is not determined by what he does now but by the RESULTS his action brings. Because of the ban of Shugden 34 yrs ago, the practice has spread so wide. Take for example the following
1. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso Centers and followers all over the world who practices Shugden. Do not just look at the physical counts but also those online. They might be bigger then a few non DS monasteries combine
2. Monasteries in Tibet/Sichuan itself with Shugden practitioners with the support of the Chinese government, the size of their statues are getting bigger. Not only that, the Chinese government are promoting these temples into tourist sites. More and more are being exposed to Shugden.
Just based on these 2 points above, it was all possible because of the ban of Shugden imposed by HH himself.
I think it is an act of a Mahasiddha, who doesn't want an easy life. By actual fact, when HH imposed the ban, HH has actually more bad publicity then ever. It is not easy for HH & his people. But to HH, the bigger picture is more important.
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Yes, Big Uncle, I am very sure that His Holiness the Dalai Lama is using a very Mahasiddha approach when HH imposed the ban on Dorje Shugden practice. Since we are now living at the degenerate time (according to Lord Buddha), methods that were effective in spreading and teaching Lord Buddha's words more than 2000 years ago seemed to have changed.
Due to our deluded minds and obscured views, we are definitely not in the position to judge the emanation of Chenrezig on his holy actions based on our views. Due to the ban on Dorje Shugden practice, our protector king is known by many worldwide.
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I too agree with the sentiments of those who have posted comments before me. There is sure some illusory play going on here. After all HH Dalai Lama is Chenresig and Dorje Shugden is Manjushri. Therefore, out of great compassion and wisdom, this ban has led to the great protector Dorje Shugden to be known all over the world (though his practice still needs to be spread further) and not only that, but Tibetan Buddhism as well.
When the ban falls, which will be a joyous occassion indeed, I am sure that Tibetan Buddhism, and especially the Gelug lineage in particular will be spread even futher, and a great many people will benefit from the teachings and transform their minds, alleviating at their suffering.
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The reasons given by His Holiness Dalai Lama for the ban on Dorje Shugden are totally baseless. His Holiness himself is hypocritical about what he had taught and how he had acted. It is beyond our comprehension! His actions are unconventional and inconceivable! His actions in relation to the ban on Dorje Shugden are certainly the actions of a mahasiddha! How else could we describe His Holiness Dalai Lama who is believed to be an emanation of Chenrezig?
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Mahasiddha or not, to the common appearance of the world he is a human being breaking the laws of human society and causing great damage and suffering to the BuddhaDharma and lives of many. Accordingly, these actions must be stopped.
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Big Uncle,
Btw, I've read many stories about Mahasiddhas and wild lineage Gurus, but I can't seem to recall a single one who did anything even remotely close to what the DL is doing to cause international suffering and damage to the Buddhist tradition. What stories are you equating the DL's unacceptable actions with? I understand people trying to come to terms with what is going on, but such giving such praise of the DL in light of his actions seems like a continuous attempt to justify them. Everybody knows he's done some good things in the world, but these are overshadowed by the hypocritical behavior, behavior we should not constantly try to justify by saying its ok he's a Buddha. It is more important for those trying to figure out how to reconcile the situation to learn how to deal with the common appearance of a human being making huge mistakes. We can debate with ourselves and each other endlessly about whether or not someone is or is not a Buddha but the bottom line always will be that we do not know who is not a Buddha other than ourselves. However, even if everyone is a Buddha but me, I have ordinary appearance and in that the world appears to be full of humans with human laws and human suffering, so it is my duty to act with compassion for the suffering living beings I perceive, to pacify their suffering, not continuously justify the actions of the person causing their suffering. Whether or not the DL is a Mahasiddha is completely irrelevant. His actions are performed in a human body in human society and these must be stopped!
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Many Mahasiddhas were recognized as Mahasiddha in retrospect many years after the manifestation of their controversial actions. These actions need to be against the expectations of the society at that time and later proven to be more beneficial than harm for the person to be called Mahasiddha. Otherwise, it is just as easily that we can call the person a monster. if the actions of Hitler were proven to be beneficial, we can call him a Mahasiddha!!?? A very controversial question to ask. I have no doubt Hitler was a monster. Nevertheless, there were people who loved him......but that is another matter.
My point is; to actually judge the Dalai Lama on the ban alone, we need to let things pan out. If at all the ban is somehow more beneficial than the harm it has caused, then we can say the Dalai Lama is a Mahasiddha. For now he has done much good for the world and Buddhism and much harm also with the ban. So I will let the results just if we can call him a Mahasiddha.
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Ok... next someone's going to ask if the ban is a new unconventional way that the Dalai Lama applied for all Shugdenpas to purify their bad karma through the sufferings they experience from it.
I have no doubt that Dalai Lama, is a Mahasiddha... a great, spiritual master. I also know that the Dalai Lama is entangled in politics and the ban is nothing more than a political move. Dorje Shugden is just used as a scapegoat... That is why many people that are smart enough to think for themselves can see through this and continue their practice despite having to listen to so many people slandering our Dharma Protector since a political ban has nothing to do with spirituality.
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If as described by Tibetan text that the Mahasiddha style is ''DISTINCTIVELY non-sectarian, non-elitist, non-dual, non-elaborate, non-sexist, non-institutional, unconventional, unothordox and non-renunciate, I find the reasons and ways of the Ban on Shugdenpas not the work of a Mahasiddha.
With due respect to DL who had done wonders to spread the Dharma, it is definitely not within my grasp to consider the ban on Dorje Shugden to be one imposed without pain and much sufferings to many Tibetans.
According to DL, the worship of Dorje Shugden will divide the Tibetans, I chose to differ as it is not the worship that divides the Tibetans all over the world but rather the Ban.
With the simple argument that the Ban is creating confusion, pain, sufferings to many at large, can I accept that the Ban is the work of a Mahasiddha. Sorry for now, the answer is no.
As mentioned the good results of the work of a Mahasiddha manifest much later, then let it be that the DL will lift the Ban as soon as possible.
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This topic somehow reminds me of "collective karma".
I would like to quote what H.E. Kyabje Lati Rinpoche said in an interview about collective karma:
"Collective karma just applies to group actions and group decisions, such as the decision to go to war. But it should not be understood as applying to individuals. For example it is not the case that a Tibetan in this life was a Tibetan in a previous life or will be a Tibetan in the future. That is not how group karma works at all.
The way it works is that if a group of people decide to agree with each other and live together in harmony, then they will experience happiness. But if they decide to be in conflict with each other, then they will experience the hardships of conflict.
For example, Toronto is a very beautiful city that has so many wonderful hospitals and beautiful parks and is very peaceful with very little crime. That is because the citizens of Toronto have decided collectively to be civilized people. They have made an effort in that direction. And it is because of what they have done as individuals in their past lives that the individual citizens of Toronto are so fortunate as to be able to live here."
Given the above, and the postulation that H.H. Dalai Lama is a Mahasiddha, I would hypothesize that H.H. Dalai Lama sees the collective karma of a portion of the Tibetan people ripening and that he is skillfully using that to make the outcome an outcome where great purification occurs with the result of a great spreading of the dharma as practised by the Gelugpas. _/.\_ _/.\_ _/.\_
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Big Uncle,
Btw, I've read many stories about Mahasiddhas and wild lineage Gurus, but I can't seem to recall a single one who did anything even remotely close to what the DL is doing to cause international suffering and damage to the Buddhist tradition. What stories are you equating the DL's unacceptable actions with? I understand people trying to come to terms with what is going on, but such giving such praise of the DL in light of his actions seems like a continuous attempt to justify them. Everybody knows he's done some good things in the world, but these are overshadowed by the hypocritical behavior, behavior we should not constantly try to justify by saying its ok he's a Buddha. It is more important for those trying to figure out how to reconcile the situation to learn how to deal with the common appearance of a human being making huge mistakes. We can debate with ourselves and each other endlessly about whether or not someone is or is not a Buddha but the bottom line always will be that we do not know who is not a Buddha other than ourselves. However, even if everyone is a Buddha but me, I have ordinary appearance and in that the world appears to be full of humans with human laws and human suffering, so it is my duty to act with compassion for the suffering living beings I perceive, to pacify their suffering, not continuously justify the actions of the person causing their suffering. Whether or not the DL is a Mahasiddha is completely irrelevant. His actions are performed in a human body in human society and these must be stopped!
Hi Psylotripitaka,
I am not actually praising the Dalai Lama. It is framed as a question to invite people to discuss if there is a possibility that the Dalai Lama is after all a Mahasiddha and the ban is enlightened action. There were no mahasiddhas who did it on such a global stage but then again, there was no mahasiddha whose influence on global Buddhadharma like the way the Dalai Lama has. Since Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche was the one who prophesied in his writings and gave advice not to have negative view towards the Dalai Lama and to realize of his innate enlightened qualities. Therefore, I was exploring that the ban could have been an act of a Mahasiddha. Most Mahasiddha are ill-understood because their actions go against conventional ideas of what is holy, sacred and the profane. This to me sounds like what the Dalai Lama is doing to Dorje Shugden. Unlike an ordinary person with ordinary intention, the Dalai Lama does not seem to gain in anyway from this.
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Believing that the Dalai Lama is Chenrezig,we have to go back all the way in the history of Tibet, to the very beginning, when the role of Chenrezig seems to parallel that of Chenrzig today. Chenrzig is believed to have manifested as Songzen Gampo. As Songzen Gampo, he was a warrior King who vanquished all foes and opposition and united all the different states, under petty kings and chieftains,into a country called Tibet. There was much loss of lives then. But once he had united the country into one Tibet, he began to take steps to develop a language which could be used as a platform to introduce Buddhism to Tibet.Even marrying 2 princesses from China and India was another way to bring Buddhism to Tibet. These princesses were Buddhists and they brought with them statues of the Buddha. Temples were built to house these statues.So, all in all, Songzen Gampo was a bodhisattve king, who was instrumental in bringing Buddhism to Tibet. Yet much violence, involving the loss of many lives had taken place in his time.
As we fast forward to the present,in the Dalai Lama, Chenrezig again appears to be manifesting compassion in the form of the "crazy wisdom" of a Mahasiddha. Our ordinary conceptual mind cannot fathom the workings of the mind of such a compassionate Enlightened being, .Hence the violence in the wake of the ban, the loss of innocent lives, that does not make sense, has still to be taken in stride, while all await the unfolding of the big picture.
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Mahasiddhas are great individuals who have become perfect Buddhas in their subtle mystic bodies but continue to manifest through their “coarse” bodies in order to be accessible to their societies and help fellow sentient beings. To think that H.H. the Dalai Lama is a mahasiddha is our way of justifying the irrational action of imposing the ban that has caused so much suffering. On the one hand, we have great respect for His Holiness because he is Chenrezig. On the other, we do not understand why Chenrezig, the Buddha of Compassion could manifest uncompassionate actions. Hence the justifications. Only time will tell whether His Holiness is a mahasiddha or not. But let's not judge His Holiness with our unenlightened minds. The Buddha, as a bodhisattva in his previous lives, had performed actions that seemed cruel but in the end we realise that they were done out of compassion.
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Mahasiddha or not, this ban has gotten way too too far! The birth right is taken away. You can't buy even basic necessities from grocery shops, friends shun each other, monasteries split, Gelugpa lineage is at the brink of collapsing, high lamas excommunicated, children can't register for school, innocent monks physically attacked, Dorje Shugden practitioners live in constant fear.An act of a Mahasiddha???? I am sure there are other methods....
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Agreed Rihanna!!! This plan is gone way too far to even to the extend of a threaten ones life and High Lamas. What example are we showing to the rest of the world for the fact that Buddhism is supposedly practicing love and compassion. We can't even purchase a tooth paste from a non Shugden practitioner's shop and in the other hand we told the world we are practicing love and compassion. We are we actually...
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As we fast forward to the present,in the Dalai Lama, Chenrezig again appears to be manifesting compassion in the form of the "crazy wisdom" of a Mahasiddha. Our ordinary conceptual mind cannot fathom the workings of the mind of such a compassionate Enlightened being, .Hence the violence in the wake of the ban, the loss of innocent lives, that does not make sense, has still to be taken in stride, while all await the unfolding of the big picture.
I am all in favor of not condemning the acts of the 14th Dalai Lama, not least of all because it was the instructions of Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang. Furthermore it is not necessary to for me to revile a monk in my practice of Dharma and one can attack the unholy ban without having to attack the Dalai Lama himself. However, I am not sure if its a bit of a stretch to regard the events that came close to causing Tsongkhapa's lineage to disappear to be the acts of a Mahasiddha arising out of 'crazy wisdom'.
Without dispute the great Pabongkha Rinpoche was a Mahasiddha as was his teacher the irrefutable mahasiddha, Tagphu Rinpoche. As a well told story goes, one night, Pabongkha Rinpoche dreamt of a person giving him a pot of milk and requesting him to drink it completely. This symbolized that the complete teachings would be transferred to him. Later on, a monk came to see Pabongkha and explained that there were a lot of philosophies in Tibet but not much teaching on Lamrim. The monk offered to be Pabongkha's patron so that he could go and teach which he did. Pabongkha Rinpoche taught in Lhasa and he went every where in Tibet and many people became his students. He propagated Tsongkhapa's Dharma with great zest.
Finally the monk who was Pabongkha Rinpoche's patron returned and thanked him. He told Pabongkha to rest, while he was away at Wu-tai-shan in China. During this time, no one sought Pabongkha Rinpoche requesting Lamrim teachings. Three years later, this monk returned and requested Pabongkha Rinpoche to now to teach Tantra. After this many people requested Tantra teachings. Pabongkha Rinpoche contemplated these events and realised that this monk was in fact Dorje Shugden.
Pabongkha went to see his guru Tagphu Dorjechang, a very special spiritual teacher. Tagphu had a long line of incarnations numbering four or five. The first Tagphu Khacho Uncho while meditating, saw Tara, Chenrezig and they gave empowerments to him. Tagphu Dorje Chang also travelled to the pure lands. Yidams give him initiations such as "Cittamani Tara". He also held the thirteen deity initiation called "Da-pan Na-ja soon".
Mahasiddha Pabongkha asked Mahasiddha Tagphu Dorjechang to go to Tushita where he requested teaching from Je Tsongkhapa. Tsongkhapa lifted the cloth that covered the front of the golden throne he was sitting on and from under the golden throne came the five forms of Dorje Shugden. Dorje Shugden gave to Mahasiddha Tagphu Dorje Chang Tempay Gyaltsen's complete instructions and the Mahasiddha returned to Tibet with this texts. Tagphu Dorjechang gave Pabongkha Rinpoche not only the initiation and lineage of Dorje Shugden, but also all his lineages that he held.
I am not saying necessarily that the Dalai Lama is not a Mahasiddha but I am wondering out loud why would a Mahasiddha work against two undisputed Mahasiddhas, both of whom saw the great importance of propagating Dorje Shugden's practice that the Dalai Lama has tried to destroy? I cannot reconcile this.
We may say that The Dalai Lama's ban was behind the cause of the spread of Manjushri-Tsongkhapa's lineage but in truth that was pretty much due to the efforts of Shugden lamas such as Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and Lama Yeshe. We may also say that the Dalai Lama declared a ban so that the enemy-China would take up the practice and spread it but again there is no evidence to support this claim. The Dalai Lama's prohibition of Dorje Shugden came in the 1990's and if indeed the purpose of the Dalai Lama creating a controversy so that China would take up the practice, then His Holiness would have declared a ban before Mao Zedong died in 1976, and when the Dalai Lama's threat to China (with the aid of the CIA in wishing to oppose Communism) was much stronger than it is today.
Moreover if the ban is an act of a Mahasiddha with a divine purpose that our ordinary minds cannot fathom, then why are we opposing the ban and hence the work of a Mahasiddha?
These are just my opinion and it would be interesting to hear everyone's thoughts based on logic and reason and not mere speculations.
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To me, 14th Dalai Lama's purpose in all of this is as a catalyst for thought transformation. Let me explain.
In the 1400’s, the Middle Ages had ended in Europe and thence began the Renaissance which lasted for 300 years. Before this, during the Middle Ages, the Church had authority over most people. During the time people had very few rights. The Renaissance was a big change. European man started to see a new type of art, literature, and science.
Most importantly, European man's view of (European) man changed.
The evidence of this transformation in thought are numerous. For example, I have read that the painting “Madonna Enthroned Between two Angles”, by Duccio di Buoninsegna, painted during the Middle Ages, was for example done in a religious manner, common during the Middle Ages because that was what the church had wanted. In comparison, the “Mona Lisa”, by Leonardo Da Vinci, showed a new type of art style which had landscapes and three-dimensional figures. Man’s view of man had changed as evidenced by art.
In literature, in the play Hamlet, William Shakespeare wrote “in apprehension how like a god!”. During the Renaissance people were viewed as god/angel-like creatures or as works of art. People were starting to think that they were beautiful people. Compare this with the play Everyman, a late 15th centry English morality play, where the author wrote, “Ye [ man ] think sin in beginning full sweet”.
In the Middle Ages humans were considered to be sinners, and how they were created by god. During the Renaissance, people were becoming god himself from creations that sin. Literature changed man’s view of man by telling people they were beautiful and god-like.
How to create a Renaissance? Make people think and re-think and to me this is the "logic" behind the 14th Dalai Lama's actions.
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Mahasiddha or not, this ban has gotten way too too far! The birth right is taken away. You can't buy even basic necessities from grocery shops, friends shun each other, monasteries split, Gelugpa lineage is at the brink of collapsing, high lamas excommunicated, children can't register for school, innocent monks physically attacked, Dorje Shugden practitioners live in constant fear.An act of a Mahasiddha???? I am sure there are other methods....
I like what you have just said Rihanna and the suffering of the Shugden practitioners cannot be denied or downplayed at all. If the Dalai Lama is who he is, he must be working to accomplish something greater like the spread of Dorje Shugden throughout the world through China. May it come to fruition quickly so the ban can come down and release the sufferings of so many Shugden practitioners in India right now.
Many of us foreigners can only imagine the discrimination and suffering experienced by the practitioners there. It's amazing that through everything that Shugden practitioners are going through, many practitioners and high lamas never retaliate or fought back. Incredible samaya, patience, fortitude, faith and trust in the lineage lamas and the protector.
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Many of us foreigners can only imagine the discrimination and suffering experienced by the practitioners there. It's amazing that through everything that Shugden practitioners are going through, many practitioners and high lamas never retaliate or fought back. Incredible samaya, patience, fortitude, faith and trust in the lineage lamas and the protector.
I like what Big Uncle said about the adversity that Shugden practitioners are experiencing now, there is no retaliation or violence but there is only clean samaya, patience, fortitude, faith and trust in the lineage lamas and protector. In this difficult time, it goes to show in this degenerate time, Shugden practitioners are genuine dharma practitioners who uphold and preserve the Buddhadharma well. In time of this, we can clearly differentiate the quality of "spirit worshippers" and "non-spirit worshippers". What matter most is the ultimate goal of achievement in the spiritual journey and not the accusation of being "spirit worshippers". However, the ban must be lifted for the sake of our Shugden brothers and sisters who are suffering due to the persecution.
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Do you think the Dalai Lama's ban is an act of a Mahasiddha?
Never heard of any mahasiddhas defaming their gurus, or inciting people to kill themselves, or causing schism within the Sangha.
There were no mahasiddhas who did it on such a global stage but then again, there was no mahasiddha whose influence on global Buddhadharma like the way the Dalai Lama has.
Then, according to you, defaming the guru, causing schism within the Sangha, and inciting people to kill themselves are all fine and dandy, as long as the mahasiddha candidate is a CIA puppet and a Jewish-media promoted celebrity, right?
Most Mahasiddha are ill-understood because their actions go against conventional ideas of what is holy, sacred and the profane.
Who else then is a mahasiddha candidate according to you? Chemical Ali? Osama Bin Laden? Henry Kissinger?
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HH The Dalai Lama may have used a Mahasiddha approach but I feel that his actions has gone way too far. Families are broken up; DS practitioners are banned from buying groceries from shops, are denied medical assistance, children are banned from entering schools, etc. They are deprived of basic human rights? Even high lamas are excommunicated and some are threatened with violence and death threats. Is that the act of a Mahasiddha?
However, HH The Dalai Lama is an emanation of Chenrezig and he promotes compassion and non-violence. Why would he put his reputation at risk and deal with all the defamation by implementing the ban? Is it to cause uproar as due to the ban Dorje Shugden is widely known and the practice is getting stronger and spreading all over the world? Only time will tell when the ban is lifted and I hope it will be soon.
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Perhaps I'm lucky in that I don't feel any need to justify the Dalai Lama's actions. I have never been his disciple or admirer, just neutral about him until I found out about his actions in the matter of Dorje Shugden. Surely if a monk rescinds his devotion to his root guru, says that worldly spirits can harm his body and work, and tells lies which set monk against monk, layperson against layperson, our natural instinct as peaceful and truthful people should be to say that he is simply making mistakes? I don't understand why we need to create elaborate excuses. Are we worried that criticising him will lead to harm? I don't want him to come to harm, but I also don't want him to have an undeserved good reputation if his actions are bad. Do we also want to excuse the Fifth Dalai Lama for his war-making, just because he bore the name Dalai Lama? I find this Mahasiddha idea bewildering and think it is tortuous and glamoured rather than accurate. It rather unpleasantly reminds me of Catholic cover-ups, where people's sense of truth has been twisted by wanting to believe that a criminal is holy.
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I do think the Dalai lama is a mahasiddha who has taken the responsibility to spread Dorje Shugden and also Lama Tsongkhapa's tradition.
The Dalai Lama is not a dull person who is not aware of all he has done. He is the top scholar in the world since Je Tsongkhapa's time and he has spread the dharma, far and wide to all over the world plus he has made Buddhism hip hence the centres around the world have benefitted from this teachings and presence.
He has made contradicting decisions like allowing Trijang Rinpoche to practice, knowing full well Trijang Rinpoche will one day rise up to defend and 'challenge' against his Dorje Shugden policies. The Dalai Lama was Dromtonpa who relied totally on Je Atisha and was the only one who was given the role to preserve the Lamrim teachings from Lama Atisha.
I feel that perhaps to do the work that the Dalai Lama has set out for himself, we the Gelug practitioners and Dorje Shugden need to do more work to lift the ban and collecting the merit for the lifting of theban. So lets put our backs to it and do more for the spread of Lama Tsongkhapa's tradition and Dorje Shugden. The faster we get Dorje Shugden out there the faster we can lift the ban.
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Haha... I actually thought about Hitler. He was perhaps a great Mahasiddha who agreed through his immensely deep Bodhicitta to act out the negative for us to experience the illusory play of duality. But then again.. what do I know? hee hee
I think if view the DL as a Mahasiddha that is manifesting a a bigger picture that we yet could perceive, then, we just play our part to assist in this mega movie of the ban of Dorje Shugden 8)
Ok... next someone's going to ask if the ban is a new unconventional way that the Dalai Lama applied for all Shugdenpas to purify their bad karma through the sufferings they experience from it.
I have no doubt that Dalai Lama, is a Mahasiddha... a great, spiritual master. I also know that the Dalai Lama is entangled in politics and the ban is nothing more than a political move. Dorje Shugden is just used as a scapegoat... That is why many people that are smart enough to think for themselves can see through this and continue their practice despite having to listen to so many people slandering our Dharma Protector since a political ban has nothing to do with spirituality.
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Haha... I actually thought about Hitler. He was perhaps a great Mahasiddha who agreed through his immensely deep Bodhicitta to act out the negative for us to experience the illusory play of duality. But then again.. what do I know? hee hee
I think if we view the DL as a Mahasiddha that is manifesting a a bigger picture, which we yet could perceive, then, we just play our part to assist in this mega movie of the ban of Dorje Shugden 8)
Ok... next someone's going to ask if the ban is a new unconventional way that the Dalai Lama applied for all Shugdenpas to purify their bad karma through the sufferings they experience from it.
I have no doubt that Dalai Lama, is a Mahasiddha... a great, spiritual master. I also know that the Dalai Lama is entangled in politics and the ban is nothing more than a political move. Dorje Shugden is just used as a scapegoat... That is why many people that are smart enough to think for themselves can see through this and continue their practice despite having to listen to so many people slandering our Dharma Protector since a political ban has nothing to do with spirituality.
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I, for one, cannot tell a mahasiddha from an ordinary person. One thing's for sure, the Dalai Lama started the ban and what I can do is to speak up against it. Maybe before the curtain falls, the ending of the drama may be positive to show the whole movie. But for me right now I do what I can to write against the ban, share the practice of Dorje Shugden to as many people as possible. I sure would not want to create more bad karma for myself by disparaging a sangha member, I have plenty to deal with. After all, he wears the maroon robes and holds his vows, I don't.
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i've not been to this forum for years. i stopped posting because i was so exasperated by this idiotic big picture idea. i thought you'd actually started to drop this lunacy and get fully behind ISC's efforts to lift the ban, but this is thefirst thread i have looked at since coming back and i see you haven't moved on at all. bravo.
don't give me any bull about conventional appearance and China and we can't see who's enlightened. i can't see who's enlightened but i CAN see who is the worst dictator in the modern world according to his actions and i haven't time to indulge in this Stockholm syndrome mutual rationalisation.
WAKE UP. GET OUT THERE AND PROTEST. ffs - what do you think Dorje Shugden would do if he were incarnate?
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I sure would not want to create more bad karma for myself by disparaging a sangha member, I have plenty to deal with.
What about the bad karma of promoting a criminal as a ”sangha member”?
After all, he wears the maroon robes
The cowl does not make the monk. Just because the criminal wear maroon robes does not mean that he is Buddhist, let alone a monk. The evil entity is nothing but a barbaric terrorist.
and holds his vows
Which vows? The root bodhisattva downfall of not creating schism within the Sangha? Or the tantric vow of not scorning and deriding his own vajra master? Or the pratimoksha vow of not kiling, which the evil terrorist does when he praises self-immolations?
I don't.
I agree. A good way to start holding your vows is abandoning devotion to a terrorist and looking for a Buddhist guru.
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I think if we view the DL as a Mahasiddha that is manifesting a a bigger picture, which we yet could perceive, then, we just play our part to assist in this mega movie of the ban of Dorje Shugden 8)
Like the idiot king without clothes playing the ”bigger picture” of a clothed wise king, an everybody saying that ”yes, he is not naked, he is a mahasiddha” out of concern for their own reputation.
And, in the same way that the the idiot naked king was manipulated by his clever tailors, the evil puppet named ”dalai” receives his monthly allowances from, and allow himself to be manipulated by, the Jewish financial terrorist George Soros.
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I have no doubt that Dalai Lama, is a Mahasiddha... a great, spiritual master.
While this statement says nothing about the evil terrorist, its says a lot about you, who take a depraved terrorist as a ”spiritual master”.
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Here's an interesting description of a Mahasiddha...
Mahasiddha (mah?siddha, from maha meaning "great" and siddha meaning "adept"; Tibetan Wylie: grub thob chen po or Wylie: tul shug) is a term for someone who embodies and cultivates the "siddhi of perfection". They are a certain type of yogin/yogini recognized in Vajrayana Buddhism. Mahasiddhas were tantric practitioners, or tantrikas, who had sufficient empowerments and teachings to act as a guru or tantric master. A siddha is an individual who, through the practice of sadhana, attains the realization of siddhis, psychic and spiritual abilities and powers. Their historical influence throughout the Indic and Himalayan region was vast, and they reached mythic proportions as codified in their songs of realization and hagiographies, or namthar, many of which have been preserved in the Tibetan Buddhist canon. The Mahasiddhas are the founders of Vajrayana traditions and lineages, such as Dzogchen and Mahamudra. The mahasiddha tradition may be conceived and considered as a cohesive body due to their spiritual style, sahaja; which was distinctively non-sectarian, non-elitist, non-dual, non-elaborate, non-sexist, non-institutional, unconventional, unorthodox and non-renunciate.
Based on this explanation, could the Dalai Lama be using Mahasidddha-like intention by instituting this ban? This is considering that the Dalai Lama does not really stand to gain in any way. He literally put his reputation at stake here...
Just food for thought...
So the logic goes "if someone is acting crazy and destroying Buddhism through lies, hypocrisy and politics, that person must be a maha siddha"
I don't follow your logic!
Furthermore, how can (according to the description) a mahasiddha be a non-renunciate? This is ridiculuous! Renunciation is the basis for all spiritual realisations that lead to liberation and enlightenment. Where is the definition from?
It may be food for thought but I think it's more like poison for thought. It kills your investigative faculties and induces blind faith that then enables you to be exploited by anyone (especially religious dictators like the false Dalai Lama ;)).
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I have no doubt that Dalai Lama, is a Mahasiddha... a great, spiritual master.
Oh please....where is your evidence? I have no doubt the cows are green and live on the moon but am I right?
If the false Dalai Lama is a great mahasiddha then we should follow his holy example of defaming and abandoning our teachers, wearing a Rolex watch, living in luxury five star hotels, banning authentic religious practices and lying through our teeth at every opportunity.
let's all create a schism in the Sangha as a path to enlightenment!
Please use your wisdom and don't buy the snake oil.
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i've not been to this forum for years. i stopped posting because i was so exasperated by this idiotic big picture idea. i thought you'd actually started to drop this lunacy and get fully behind ISC's efforts to lift the ban, but this is thefirst thread i have looked at since coming back and i see you haven't moved on at all. bravo.
don't give me any bull about conventional appearance and China and we can't see who's enlightened. i can't see who's enlightened but i CAN see who is the worst dictator in the modern world according to his actions and i haven't time to indulge in this Stockholm syndrome mutual rationalisation.
WAKE UP. GET OUT THERE AND PROTEST. ffs - what do you think Dorje Shugden would do if he were incarnate?
Actually, on the contrary to what you may be thinking, I started this thread without the intention to dissuade anybody from any form of protests. It was just a line of thought that I had and I just thought I had one day when I was just googling about the Mahasiddhas and I was just wondering what people may be thinking about. If the protests are done peacefully and without violence and with sound reasoning, I don't see anything wrong with that. Personally, if it was up to me. I would rather shift the focus from demonising the Dalai Lama to actual evidences of disintegration of Tibetan society and abuse of human and religious freedom. Been quite busy at work in Asia so I can't make it for protest over in the European countries yet.
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Yes, certainly. If we believe the Dalai Lama to be Chenrezig, then this is the only logical conclusion. Otherwise, the who basis of Tibetan Buddhism will fall flat and we need not practice any Vajrayana. That being the case, we need to understand that what the enlightened ones, including the Dalai Lama and the Shugden Lamas, do and will be doing are acts of skillful means to benefits all sentient beings.
The ban is both a reflection of the collective karmas/mertis of beings in this world and the response via skillful means to propagate what is most beneficial to us.
As in any acts of a Mahasiddha, one usually cannot comprehend these acts initially but over time, it will be clear.
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Do I think the Dalai Lama's ban is an act of a Mahasidda?
NOPE! I think he is acting like a crazy power hungry politician. Can Buddhas emanate as crazy power hungry politicians? Yes.... but I have ZERO proof from any of the Dalai Lama's activities that he is a Buddha, a mahasidda or even a person I would not do constant Vajrasattva for so that he doesn't fall into the lower realms.
Anyone could be a Buddha. But just because someone thinks he is one, doesn't make him one.
Why is the Dorje Shugden ban so confusing for people? Because it makes not one grain of sense--- the Dalai Lama, if he were a Buddha, would be emanating in a reverse psycology way--- like usually if a teacher wants us to follow him, he brings us on board before he starts doing weird and crazy stuff.
The Dalai asks me to go against the bodhisattva vow by asking me to give up the Shugden practice, because I need it for full Buddhahood. So, I don't know who is a Buddha or not, but the backwards teachers don't want us to do anything they say with their mouths--- also I think he is generally misdirecting all of humanity ....
which doesn't seem like something a Buddha would do. I love Dorje Shugden, and I pray to Dorje Shugden (who is a Buddha people) everyday.... and I always add that will he please help the Dalai Lama purify his karma; I do ask for Dorje Shugden to protect the Dalai Lama's life, since I don't want the Dalai Lama to die and go to the lower realms. If he realizes what he has done, or at least does a lot of Vajrasattva, he might be okay. I do a lot of Vajrasattva, and I pray to clear the karma of all living beings; I especially pray for the Dalai lama in this prayer
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I see the acts taken to impose the ban on Dorje Shugden, to be a divine play within the Buddhas, mahasiddhas and enlightened Masters to create the next Big Wave of Buddhism to rise in this degenerate age.
We are already in the midst of the 600 years or so within an era of 1,500 years where Buddhism will continue to remain with us. Thereafter this degenerate age of Buddhism sutra and tantra, we will have to wait for the Buddha Maitreya to return from Tushita land. But Buddha Maitreya will only return to teach sutra, and not tantra.
Quote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Ages_of_Buddhism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Ages_of_Buddhism)
The Three Ages of Buddhism are three divisions of time following Buddha's passing:
The Former Day of the Law, also known as the Age of the Right Dharma, the first thousand years (or 500 years) during which the Buddha's disciples are able to uphold the Buddha's teachings;
The Middle Day of the Law, also known as the Age of Semblance Dharma, the second thousand years (or 500 years), which only resembles the right Dharma;
The Latter Day of the Law, which is to last for 10,000 years during which the Dharma declines.
With the skillful use of the Ban on a protector as mighty as Dorje Shugden aka Manjushri, Buddha of Wisdom to spread the teachings and revival of Je Tsongkhapa - when the ban is lifted, it will be the start of the next revival of Buddhism in the world of degenerate age to benefit many beings.
This may be the work of a great mahasiddha, HH the Dalai Lama.
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I abhor the Dalai Lama's ban... and i know we should condemn the action and not the person (hang on.. that sounds more Christian) anyway... i'm quite happy to condemn the man too... but I only stop short as I am mindful of what HH Trijang Rinpoche said in his epic Music Delighting - to not lose faith in either Dorje Shugden or the Dalai Lama.
What do you think of what Trijang Rinpoche said? Was Trijang Rinpoche predicting that this crisis of confidence would happen? Was Trijang Rinpoche wrong?
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Whether the Dalai Lama is or is not a Mahasiddha is of little consequence to the work of bringing down the ban. It still has to be done and that pretty much renders this discussion a merely academic one. The 'Big Picture' theory suits some people and if that is what someone needs to believe in order not to be conflicted, then so be it.
But I think it may be harder to accept that he is a Mahasiddha if:
1. You and your family have been bearing the brunt of the the Dalai Lama's persecution directly;
2. You are named on a hit-list with your personal details and address made available while there is a constant call for the people to get you;
2. You have been up beaten just because of your guru devotion and continuing faith in Dorje Shugden;
3. You have been expelled from your monastery and community;
4. You have lost your job or denied welfare services just because of your religion;
5. You have had your children be subjected to bullying and humiliation because of your religious practice;
6. You have had your house stoned, padlocked and be the target or arson while your family is in it;
The last thing the Shugden community need now is to be divided. So while I think everyone is entitled to have an opinion, we also need to be sensitive to hurt feelings and a lot of damage that has been done to Shugden people and the Tibetan community worldwide.
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What do you think of what Trijang Rinpoche said? Was Trijang Rinpoche predicting that this crisis of confidence would happen? Was Trijang Rinpoche wrong?
Just like Galileo, Trijang Rinpoche said what he could say in a brutal theocracy.
And in the same way that Galileo said ”eppur si muove” (”and yet it moves”), Trijang Rinpoche clearly hinted at the evil dalai's sick jealousy.
Jealousy is incompatible with bodhichitta. A jealous person cannot be a bodhisattva, let alone a mahasiddha. A sickly jealous person in a position of power will likely become a terrorist. This is the case with the evil dalai.
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With the skillful use of the Ban on a protector as mighty as Dorje Shugden aka Manjushri, Buddha of Wisdom to spread the teachings and revival of Je Tsongkhapa - when the ban is lifted, it will be the start of the next revival of Buddhism in the world of degenerate age to benefit many beings.
Then, according to you logic, the ban imposed by Muslim terrorists on Buddhism, forcing every single Buddhist to choose between conversion or decapitation, in much of Central Asia for the last millenium, heralded a revival of Buddhism to benefit many beings.
That's why Buddhism flourishes so wonderfully in Afghanistan, in Pakistan, in Turkmenistan, and so forth, right?
This may be the work of a great mahasiddha, HH the Dalai Lama.
Then you have to add to your gallery of ”mahasiddhas” world-class terrorists, from Aurangzeb to Osama bin Laden. And don' t forget to make your prostrations only towards Mecca!
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I do think the Dalai lama is a mahasiddha who has taken the responsibility to spread Dorje Shugden and also Lama Tsongkhapa's tradition.
If you support evil inside your heart, you are always going to try and justify evil, no matter how much you proclaim the names of Lama Tsongkhapa and Dorje Shugden to the four winds.
Actually, proclaiming the names of Lama Tsongkhapa and Dorje Shugden is even a convenient cover for your perverted propaganda of terrorism and terrorists, such as the evil dalai.
The Dalai Lama is not a dull person who is not aware of all he has done.
This is precisely the nature of cold criminals and terrorists.
He is the top scholar in the world since Je Tsongkhapa's time
The top scholar in the academia of terrorism, you mean, right?
But no, he is not. The evil dalai is just a learning puppet on the payroll of the master terrorists controlling his actions, such as the financial terrorist and international troublemaker George Soros.
and he has spread the dharma, far and wide to all over the world
Then for you spreading the cancer of religious intolerance is ”spreading dharma”, right? This indeed explains you devotion to the terrorist dalai.
plus he has made Buddhism hip hence the centres around the world have benefitted from this teachings and presence.
Centers of witch-hunting, you mean, right?
And the material benefit of money and sponsorships with political strings attached to them, right?
Please tell us where ”Buddhism” enters this macabre story.
The Dalai Lama was Dromtonpa
Sure. And Osama bin Laden was the Buddha, and Chemical Ali was Ananda.
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Big Uncle - forgive my harsh tone. my intention is to overcome doubt and prevent inappropriate actions amongst our people caused by confusion. for example, i am so deeply disappointed and worried by the threat letters: these are a huge mistake and we need wisdom to prevent such things happening again or the consequences will be disastrous. i think that comments in this thread demonstrate how harmful and confusing this view of the FDL as a Mahasiddha can be if we're not advanced Tantric practitioners of Pure View. if we ARE, great - please practice in secret. if we're not, please practice Sutra and develop compassion for the FDL as a deeply confused mother being. either way, we need openly and explicitly to oppose the ban by every legal, moral means available such as (but not limited to) demonstrating.
then, wrt Trijang Rinpoche's advice re. our view of the False DL, i agree that he had no reasonable choice but to say this - much as Je Phabongkhapa had to promise the 13th that he wouldn't go against his decrees again. i think anyone with knowledge of the situation and the people involved would be able clearly to see that these statements where not meant to be taken literally!
wrt criticizing the FDL directly, as opposed to simply criticizing his actions: i understand our people's discomfort at these ad hominem attacks. however, i think that they are a valid tactic, and one that we need to use now. we've tried arguing the inconsistencies and faults of the ban over and over, and we've requested dialogue again and again. this is having some effect, but maybe not enough, and not quickly enough. some people, seeing this, have recently made huge and very dangerous mistakes such as sending the letters. we need to act powerfully, but legally, and within our vows and precepts. because he has failed to bend to our criticicism of the ban, the next step is ad hominem attacks aimed at destroying his reputation. after all, the ban only has power through his speech; if he won't lift it we can negate it by disempowering his speech and taking away his reputation. for that reason, i have no issue calling him a liar and the worst dictator in the modern world.
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Well said, Solomon Lang. why else would a Buddha of Compassion institute this ban? Why his statements do not tie up and not make sense given that he won a Noble Peace prize and is articulate? But, there's a lot heavy negative karma to expunge, though.
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Well Barack Obama also won a noble peace prize. I have always assumed he is the Buddha Padmasambava, though I guess I don't have the CTA's backing....
The point is--- you know--- we can see anyone as a Buddha--- but when someone is destroying Buddhism then we don't need to sit by and say--- oh well, a priori---- he one a Nobel peace prize and therefore is the Buddha of Compassion or some guys decided he was the reincarnation of the Buddha of Compassion, so he must be---- therefore be quiet, sit down, and do as he says, okay?
Actually, I do like Barack Obama, and I personally think he might be Padmasambava; but you know, it doesn't generally make a lot of sense to walk around telling people that political leaders are Buddhas. If so, then we should complete the inner view of them, and say it's okay to completely ignore anything they say with their mouths. So when a Buddha wants to teach in a tantric way, it's not like we have to remain like quiet and polite sutrayana disciples. Tell him he's wrong, if that's the way his actions appear to the world. That people won't say he's wrong in many cases means they don't really see him as the Buddha of anything but are scared of the oppressive dictatorial god-king guy. Just like people have always been afraid of the oppressive dictatorial king/god-king guy.
So when did Nobel start recognizing Buddhas?
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Hers a question for you.
Is there any benefit in any emanation of Buddha showing the example of calling their Teachers wrong if those Teachers were sincere and highly realised practitioners?
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Hers a question for you.
Is there any benefit in any emanation of Buddha showing the example of calling their Teachers wrong if those Teachers were sincere and highly realised practitioners?
Only to get us not to listen to anything the emanation who is telling us his highly realized teachers are wrong. In other words, if a Buddha wants to do reverse activity, like calling Trijang Rinpoche and other Shugden teachers wrong, then that Buddha wants us to outwardly acknowledge him as not a Buddha, and ignore him, or peacefully demonstrate against him, and separate religion and state. (Though feel free to keep up internal views as your practices indicate, always following the Buddhas).
However, though that COULD happen or something, I feel very tired of having to always deal with the fact that people expect me to say the Dalai Lama is a Buddha; if we are practicing that everyone we see is a Buddha--- okay--- but that is a practice and also we act normal externally. So if I see someone beating someone else up, rather than just thinking, look two Buddhas displaying fistfighting so we will see the faults of anger, I can think that, but also call the police to stop the conflict.
I get tired of the everyone has to see the Dalai Lama in particular as an infallible Buddha thing--- because that is just brainwashing to me; where is the actions that follow the (during some teachings) words of compassion? Where is the logic that he is acting in a kind way? Where is his logic at all? I'd say, again, if I have to choose a Nobel peace winner who is an emanation of Buddha, my money is more on Obama--- though teaching in reverse a lot of course--- but I don't have to say that to people--- because no one thinks the American president is Buddha Chenrezig....
In reality this thing where everybody has to think the Dalai Lama is a Buddha is part of the brainwashing from his giving the tantra teachings too much worldwide and people (maybe including him, I don't know) misunderstanding the tantra. So, in the story of Marpa and Milarepa, Milarepa was very devoted to Marpa, and was also attaining enlightenment--- including an 11 year retreat in one life. He had real faith in Marpa--- not blind faith. We are supposed to examine the teacher first, and the teacher is supposed to examine us. This Dalai Lama guy, you know, he is a guy to me.... he is someone that got picked to be the reincarnate lama that has been head of state---- so--- he is the god-king, but also he gives "tantra" to the west--- technically a vajramaster is supposed to be a Buddha---- at least according to (recently dissolved from Nirmanakaya into Dharmakaya temporarily) Shamar Rinpoche. So everybody runs around saying this is the Buddha of Compassion. He can do no wrong! Yeah? Well, that's very convenient for a dictator---- these same people would say I don't understand, I have no faith, I am spirit worshiping.... so how is it I have no faith when I know that Buddhas are omniscient and infinitely compassionate. I just don't believe people who are beating me over the head saying that guy is a Buddha so follow his every command. No. I won't do it.... can you get real or something?
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Just one and a half cents:
The Dalai Lama received his serendipitous Nobel Peace prize because the West wanted to tell China to ease off. That's all. After all, what had the Dalai Lama done that deserved the Peace prize?
Perhaps it was because he was a deposed head of government. There are other deposed heads of government who never received the peace prize.
He taught the Dharma. So do other monks. Is he better than other monks? But he is a "buddha" - the Buddha of Compassion. But so are so many other incarnate lamas?
My issue with this view of the Dalai Lama as infallible is that once you realise the emperor has no clothes, everything crumbles. Everything. It is difficult to distinguish the dharma he has taught. It is difficult to distinguish his kind acts. All because we suddenly realise that he is human. It's like suddenly realising santa claus is mom or dad.
He says his tutors are wrong. And as Samayakeeper says earlier.. he can't judge because he is not wearing the robes. The Dalai Lama is wearing the robes.. Does that mean that he is right to condemn his gurus? Does that mean he is right to condemn Dorje Shugden?
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Firstly Welcome back Atishas Cook... nice to see you here and the rest of the crew ;)
Well this whole thing about Dalai Lama being a Mahasiddha... who knows really. Me being not a mahasiddha or mahasiddhi, not even a sangha, can't judge that but will judge the actions of a person who basically is creating civil war amongst it's own people and not to mentioned the destruction of Vajrayana Buddhism as a whole and that MUST BE STOPPED!
We can choose to be skillful in our speech... ok some will say don't condemn the Dalai Lama so harshly... it's not good, bad karma, take Trijang Rinpoche's words literally etc etc etc, ok great - do it! And some say TELL IT TO HIS FACE using what we call SHOCK TACTICS to get attention, TO GET PEOPLE TO STOP AND LISTEN. To me it is really all about your motivation isn't it? I am sure no one here wishes anything ill of harmful to be done to the Dalai Lama per se, as one human to another, as real Buddhist, but we do for sure want the violence, the threats, the discrimination, condemnation, the BAN to STOP.
This issue has become more than just a Shugden issue.... the bigger picture would be... haha... I know u hate that word Atisha, but yes I'm gonna use it here... "the biger picture" is and has become a HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSED ISSUE OF THE WORST KIND OF RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION! Which the Tibetan Leadership is now very desperately trying to cover up by saying "Hey there is no ban and there never was, everyone's got their IC". OMG when you here your PM speaks like that, what would you have do? Wish there was no karma and throw a few eggs on him LOL! It's now a global issue people when we look at the humanity aspect of this.
Honestly i personally do not know if DL is a Mahasiddha or not... whatever... He has his own Karma to deal with... but I am certainly not going to sit around to say IT IS OK FOR HIM TO TEACH PEACH AND THEN GOES AND RUN A HITLIST ON HIS OWN PEOPLE. NOW that is CRIMINAL MOTIVE and that is some the world needs to know. CTA cannot go on operating this way and basically getting away with MURDER! This is still samsara, binded by HUMAN LAWS so we USE HUMAN LAWS which is accepted by EVERYONE to STOP this HARM before it gets bloodier.
You think the Tibetans who goes to His talk cares about Buddhism and Karma? If they do, they would not have spat, show their fist and middle finger at the protesters, imagine if you guys were in Dharmasala?! IT would have been more violent! They do showcase behaviours of a very much deluded psychotic violent society likened to a following of a CULT yet they condemn us to be a CULT. It is hilarious and SCARY! No matter what logic present to them, they will not listen but only SPIT IT OUT AT YOU. SO this issue needs to be address from a GLOBAL STAND POINT ALREADY. How is it that the blooming CTA can get away which such bold threat on their webpage and no one gives a sh***?! Why haven't the UN step in to investigate? Who is corrupting who to shut up and let it be? This is more my thoughts!
So yes DALAI LAMA PLEASE GIVE RELIGIOUS FREEDOM. YOU ARE A POWERFUL MAN, YOU CREATED THIS MASSACRE, ONLY YOU CAN STOP IT. SO DO PLEASE STOP LYING, STOP YOUR CTA FROM LYING AND MANIPULATING YOUNG MINDS!
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Perhaps this newly posted picture quote comes quite apt...
(https://scontent-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/t1.0-9/p235x350/10479149_744223938952432_6407816151757126842_n.jpg)
It should be this way... but it's NOT but it will CHANGE as all things are impermanent right?! ;) Says Buddha
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dsiluvu - that's the kind of bigger picture i'm happy publicly to get behind! :D
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Given the above, and the postulation that H.H. Dalai Lama is a Mahasiddha,
Postulation? Then to you it is ”evident” that a bloody terrorist is a mahasiddha, is it?
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Why his statements do not tie up and not make sense given that he [the evil dalai] won a Noble Peace prize and is articulate?
Many war criminals, terrorists, and torturers won the Nobel peace prize, and are (or were) articulate. Henry Kissinger, Menachem Begin, Barack ”Drone” Obama, the list is long. It would be amazing ifhat the evil dalai would not have been awarded such prize!
Indeed, the Nobel peace prize is rather a propaganda tool aimed at glorifying mass murderers, as long as they murder according to the interests of US, Israel, or both.
But, there's a lot heavy negative karma to expunge, though.
Then, according to your logic, the hell's henchmen are all emanations of Chenrezig, compassionately helping hell beings to purify their ripened karma, right? Plucking their eyes, skinning and burning them alive, and so forth.
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I believe the ban that Dalai Lama enforces is an act of Mahasiddha, and HH is definitely one. Reason is ever since Tibetan escape and fled to India, Tibetan Buddhism started to spread throughout the world, but to truly to revive Buddhism and help Buddhism to create an impact, the Practice of Dorje Shugden is one of the most powerful protector in this degenerate age that one could ever rely on, and also the most controversial due to the origin.
Ever since the band started, more and more people are connected to Dorje Shugden and its practice, and subsequently to Buddhism, with the centers like NKT, it has spread and reach thousand or even millions of followers, and because of this ban also created alot of attention due to demonstration.
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I believe the ban that Dalai Lama enforces is an act of Mahasiddha, and HH is definitely one. [...]
Ever since the band started, more and more people are connected to Dorje Shugden and its practice, and subsequently to Buddhism, with the centers like NKT, it has spread and reach thousand or even millions of followers, and because of this ban also created alot of attention due to demonstration.
Then, according to your logic, evil people intentionally spreading diseases are mahasiddhas too, because thanks to them more and more people look for doctors and medicine, and a lot of awareness is raised of the need for public health policies.
Also, evil people making wars and massacres are all mahasiddhas too, because thanks to them millions of lucky refugees escape to peaceful countries, and a lot of attention is created to the need of peace due to anti-war demonstrations.
Your logic of ”the worse the better” could be traced to the Jewish-Christian apocalyptic literature, where a lot of bad things, such as wars and other catastrophes, are welcome and even wished for, since they sign the advent of the ”messiah”.
Your logic lacks any Buddhist lineage. It is the very opposite of the lojong, because you wish for and rejoice on the suffering of others, believing that such suffering promotes your social group and deity, and thus your feeling of self-satisfaction.
Buddhism spread and flourished from Java to Persia, from Madagascar to Japan, throughout India, Central Asia, and China, without the need of bans, witch-hunts and persecutions, but only on the strength of the purity of its teachings.
Why would the practice of Dorje Shugden need to be banned in order to spread and flourish? Is it bereft of any good qualities, so that only a mythology of martyrdom would bring attention to it? Is there a need to add to the suffering in order to highlight its virtues?
Therefore, the deification of a terrorist, the evil dalai, as a ”mahasiddha”, together with his execrable deeds as the ”acts of a mahasiddha”, has nothing to do with Buddhism, or with the practice of Dorje Shugden, but only and strictly with subservience to an evil theocrat, and with a deeply ingrained, even if unconscious, accomplicity with crime and terrorism.
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Are we beating a dead horse here?
1. We don't know who is and is not a Buddha unless we are a Buddha. Je Pabonkhapa even says in his Kangso that Dorje Shugden can appear in many aspects to tame living beings.
2. It doesn't matter if he is a Mahasiddha, his actions contradict the laws of human society and are causing much suffering. For you who view his ban as an act of a Mahasiddha, the main point of his actions then is for you to respond in the most appropriate ways - to actively cultivate compassion for suffering sentient beings, and to take compassionate actions to stop the ban that contradicts conventional human laws.
3. It is not a contradiction to regard someone as an emanation of Buddha while at the same time we take practical steps to confront and stop their inappropriate behavior in human society in order to protect people from suffering.
4. Whether we maintain faith he is a holy being or have compassion for him as a suffering sentient being, we are cultivating the continuum of virtuous minds in both instances, and that is the most important point, to train your mind incessantly in the liberating paths. If you are not actively cultivating these minds but simply getting lost in the labyrinth of intellectual activity, your precious opportunity to end samsara is slipping through your fingers!
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It is not a contradiction to regard someone as an emanation of Buddha while at the same time we take practical steps to confront and stop their inappropriate behavior in human society in order to protect people from suffering.
For instance, even if it is a who buddha emanates as a mad dog with furious rabbies, still the dog should be put in a cage.
In the same way, even if it is a buddha who manifests as a furious terrorist, such as the evil dalai, inciting mass murdering, mass suicide, and social convulsion and violence, still he should be put in a cage as much, in order to protect people from his ”blessings” (appropriately, a word derived from ”blood”).
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If the ban of DS is an act of a Mahasiddha then I believe the Dalai Lama is one and this is another way to spread DS. With all the news about how the ban has affected the practitioners the world is now aware of DS.
Let's hope that once the ban is lifted DS will need no introduction and will easily spread worldwide.
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Perhaps no one is more tormented than the Dalai Lama and the ban is an act of a Mahasiddha. Perhaps. But this ban has caused too much hardship, suffering and death. I know it is wrong to criticize the Dalai Lama, a Nobel Peace Prize winner, a universal icon of peace and one who is revered as a Bodhisattva but he deserves criticism in this case for allowing this ban to last so long. I urge the Dalai Lama to adopt a path far more tempting to the basic human instinct: to release the ban which have not served any benefit except tensions and restrictions. Rather than indulging in philosophical investigations and debates on whether it is a divine act, please listen to the urgent pleas from people pushed to the brink by decades of ruthless repression as a result of the ban.
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If the ban of DS is an act of a Mahasiddha then I believe the Dalai Lama is one and this is another way to spread DS.
But since the ban of DS of the act of a perverted terrorist, what then do you believe?
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Perhaps no one is more tormented than the Dalai Lama and the ban is an act of a Mahasiddha.
Every criminal is ultimately tormented by their monstrous actions, but this does make of them a ”mahasiddha”.
I know it is wrong to criticize the Dalai Lama, a Nobel Peace Prize winner, a universal icon of peace and one who is revered as a Bodhisattva
Wrong? Wherefrom did you take this one? Many mass murderers have received the Nobel Peace Prize. Barack Obama, Henry Kissinger, Yitzhak Rabin, just to name a few; and the evil ”dalai” is no different.
Probably the most obnoxious Nobel Peace Prize nominee so far has been Henry Kissinger, the US State Secretary who organised the secret bombing of Laos and Cambodia (neutral countries) during the Vietnam War and was engaged in many other war crimes that cost about 3 millions human lives.
In the Seventies, the US badly needed to somehow repair their international image, and the 1973 Nobel Peace Prize to their chief criminal was a precious present from their faithful Scandinavian sucker.
A similar story happened in 2009 when Barack Obama got the Nobel Peace Prize despite being the president of the world’s most belligerent country then heavily engaged in two wars and responsible for countless war crimes.
During Obama’s rule, the US military presence has heavily increased around the world, thousands of people are now slaughtered by drones and other modern murder technologies on daily basis. [...]
Many other Nobel Peace Prize laureates seem to have been nominated to give them more political weight they could later exercise acting as (factual) agents of the USA or other NATO members against their respective homelands.
Thus, Nobel Peace Prizes are usually given to war criminals, traitors and other similar persons who prove to be useful to the US and NATO in order to give them more political weight. The award has nothing to do with making the world a more peaceful place.
In fact, the Nobel Peace Prize has become a handy public relations tool for modern criminals in power, a service that Norway provides to its political and military leaders. Practically, by means of it Norway is sucking up to the US.
http://www.counter-propaganda.com/?post=en_Nobel_Peace_Prize_as_a_means_of_sucking_up (http://www.counter-propaganda.com/?post=en_Nobel_Peace_Prize_as_a_means_of_sucking_up)
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From the above quotation, one part so precisely elucidates how and why the Nobel Peace Prize was awarded to such a criminal as the evil that it is suitable to highlight it:
Many other Nobel Peace Prize laureates seem to have been nominated to give them more political weight they could later exercise acting as (factual) agents of the USA or other NATO members against their respective homelands.
Thus, Nobel Peace Prizes are usually given to war criminals, traitors and other similar persons who prove to be useful to the US and NATO in order to give them more political weight. The award has nothing to do with making the world a more peaceful place.
Indeed, the perverted criminal dalai is nothing but a weapon used by US and its NATO vassal states against so-coveted Tibet, and ultimately against Buddhism itself.
Therefore, the evil 14th dalai, rather than a ”mahasiddha”, qualifies as a despicable traitor of Tibet, Tibetans, and Buddhism.
By the way, the evil 13th dalai did not fare better, having donated a huge chunk of his homeland, known as South Tibet (renamed as ”Arunachal Pradesh”), to the greedy, predatory, brutal, murderous, drug-dealing East Indian Company.
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sorry to keep pressing this point, but with the greatest respect, it is utterly WRONG - and ultimately very harmful - to say that patently and unambiguously evil actions are secretly virtuous, or that the perpetrators of those actions are somehow worthy of our respect, because everything is empty, or because Pabongkha Rinpoche tells us in his Kangso that Buddhas can manifest as deluded beings. this is, to quote Geshe Chekhawa, to turn a god into a demon - to misunderstand and to misuse the holy Dharma.
you people saying that the False Dalai Lama's actions are the actions of a Mahasiddha need to develop some wisdom. this is a ridiculous thing to say; the False Dalai Lama has caused the biggest schism in the Sangha the world has ever seen. he has caused hundreds of thousands, if not millions, to break their samaya and to reject their path to liberation and he is trying to eradicate this path entirely. his actions are incredibly harmful. this is unequivocally a fact.
PLEASE will you stop this idiocy. if you are engaged in the advanced practices of completion stage Tantra and viewing all phenomena as inseparable from bliss and emptiness, that's marvellous and i rejoice - but keep it to yourself. for goodness' sake, act according to the conventions of common appearance and denounce and oppose evil wherever you see it.
can't you see it??!
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PLEASE will you stop this idiocy.
Don't hold your breath. People supporting the evil dalai with ”mahasiddha” arguments and the like are not interested in stopping any idiocy.
Rather, they want to promote idiocy, specifically, the idea that the pernicious dalai is above any kind of blame or reproach, as some kind of ”infallible” pope of the middle ages.
That's why people promoting such a sordid, inhuman agenda always try to shift the blame for the evil dalai's crimes to the ”CTA”, while attempting at keeping an immaculate image of the criminal, thus suitable to be used by Western hate-and-war propaganda as an anti-China posterboy.
Such people are just politically motivated, are guilty of mixing Dharma with politics, and basely misuse Dharma sacred traditions such as the one of the Mahasiddhas as a tool for legitimizing and covering their own sordid political purposes.
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Atishas Cook,
I hear what you say, and well said, but you miss the point of this thread. Some people here have the DL as one of their Teachers, so they are trying to figure out a way to reconcile his actions with respect to their commitments of Guru devotion.
Matibhadra is doing an excellent job elucidating the heinous conventional actions. The aim of my posts is simply to help such persons be able to keep their samaya while taking compassionate action to stop actions inappropriate by human laws.
Despite what you and Matibhadra say, based on excellent sources of which I'm familiar, the fact remains that people have Guru samaya with the DL, and I'm sure you are both familiar with the Lamrim and Ashvagosha's 50 Verses on Guru Devotion. Due to these instructions, particularly the grave dangers involved, you must understand how this poses a very confusing and concerning dilemma for his students.
Pure view is not exclusively for tantric practitioners nor is such a view only maintained as a high realization. There are many levels of training in this view. By discussing it, there is a chance it may help people follow the lamrim instruction while also being able to take appropriate actions according to common human conventions.
The stance you take appears to be strictly a compassionate view of the DL as a suffering sentient being. That is valid and important. But there is another side to it that is also valid, and there is no contradiction.
Ven. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso himself even has said that though someone may be an emanation of Vajradhara, they are appearing as a human and it is entirely appropriate to confront them if their actions are inappropriate by common human standards.
So though he is not the actual incarnation of the Dalai Lama lineage, and his actions are criminal, it is very possible he is a Buddha performing skillful actions that defy ordinary understanding. The express purpose of pointing this out in this thread is once again, to help those who have samaya with the DL.
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Matibhadra is doing an excellent job elucidating the heinous conventional actions.
There is nothing beyond the merely conventional. Even the ultimate is this very lack of anything beyond the merely conventional, and is conventional itself. Let's not delude ourselves with the silly Jewish talk of beyondness.
So though he is not the actual incarnation of the Dalai Lama lineage, and his actions are criminal, it is very possible he is a Buddha performing skillful actions that defy ordinary understanding.
The same applies to the evil king Langdarma, to Osama bin Laden, to Jack the Stripper, to Chemical Ali, to a mad dog with rabies, or to a poisonous viper. Buddhas or not, they are better well locked in a jail or a cage, where they cannot harm others.
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psylotripitaka -
thank you for your skilful diplomacy!
that is a very specific condition and it would have been better - and made for a different discussion - if this thread had been entitled "If we have samaya with the DL, how can we reconcile our commitments with his apparently harmful action of banning Dorje Shugden?" in this very specific case, we might choose to hold a view such as you describe. i would also argue that we might validly consider him to have broken the samaya from his side, thereby freeing us from our commitment to him. right or wrong, that might make for a valid discussion (in a new thread!)
nevertheless, even if it were the case that we had such samaya with the DL, as Matribhadra says, no matter what view we hold internally, the correct outer response is to oppose his harmful actions by all appropriate means.
and i stand by my point that, excepting this very specific case of those who are trying to maintain samaya with him, this is not a helpful view to put about; it just causes confusion.
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If we have samaya with the DL
Is it possible to have samaya with someone lacking samaya himself?
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Unless you call ”samaya” the kind of oath sworn by members of mafia-style criminal organizations.
In such case, this is not a Buddhist samaya, and needs to be broken if one wants to become a Buddhist.
Therefore, if anyone ever took such a non-Buddhist oath from the evil criminal dalai, this person definitely needs to break this oath, in order even to become a Buddhist.
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yup. ^^ what he (or she) said.
i understand some ppl are struggling to give up on their perceived samaya, and i lay the blame for their pain directly at the door of the False Dalai Lama. he has failed you the worst of everyone.
i believe Trijang Rinpoche's often-quoted statement about not disparaging the Dalai Lama was made out of skilful means and was appropriate for the time: he had no choice but to say this, and Tibetans had no real choice but to follow this advice at that time. things are different now - now is the time to stand up and tell the truth.
False Dalai Lama "samaya"-holders - STOP FOLLOWING THE FALSE DALAI LAMA!
yes - i am saying it's time to break that connection. it is not valid samaya. he is a fraud.
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i believe Trijang Rinpoche's often-quoted statement about not disparaging the Dalai Lama was made out of skilful means and was appropriate for the time: he had no choice but to say this, and Tibetans had no real choice but to follow this advice at that time.
And even at that time, Trijang Rinpoche made a point of clearly remarking that the evil dalai is an envious character, which is just an euphemism for ”dangerous psychopath”.
Maybe from this very quintessencial remark comes the evil dalai's undisguised grudge against his tutor. An envious person will never forgive whoever points to their character deformity.
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Personally, I am no fan of the Dalai Lama. I follow Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche, although I have no direct connection with Rinpoche, I take Rinpoche as my teacher. As far as I know, even Rinpochela does not speak ill of Dalai Lama, not because the circumstances forces Rinpoche to not able to speak against DL, because we all know Rinpochela will never bend to any political or social pressure, which is the very reason why Rinpochela is still keeping His practice of Dorje Shugden.
Since that is the case, I'm following my teacher's footsteps and not condemn the DL, eventhough I feel the DL is wrong in so many ways. But that does not mean I don't fight for the ban to be lifted, but fighting through a method that does not disparage the DL or displease my teacher.
Remember, not everyone here are students of GKG. I do not know what Geshela have thought His students about the DL, but from the way some of you behave it is quite clear that Geshela would outwardly speak ill of DL.
Forcing people to follow your views, and calling people idiots for not agreeing with you. If there's such lack of tolerance even between Shugden practitioners, you can forget about asking the DL to lift the ban.
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Haha... I actually thought about Hitler. He was perhaps a great Mahasiddha who agreed through his immensely deep Bodhicitta to act out the negative for us to experience the illusory play of duality. But then again.. what do I know? hee hee
I think if we view the DL as a Mahasiddha that is manifesting a a bigger picture, which we yet could perceive, then, we just play our part to assist in this mega movie of the ban of Dorje Shugden 8)
Ok... next someone's going to ask if the ban is a new unconventional way that the Dalai Lama applied for all Shugdenpas to purify their bad karma through the sufferings they experience from it.
I have no doubt that Dalai Lama, is a Mahasiddha... a great, spiritual master. I also know that the Dalai Lama is entangled in politics and the ban is nothing more than a political move. Dorje Shugden is just used as a scapegoat... That is why many people that are smart enough to think for themselves can see through this and continue their practice despite having to listen to so many people slandering our Dharma Protector since a political ban has nothing to do with spirituality.
Yeah, aren't we all just looking for the Buddha nature that is present in every being? lol
There are so many ways we can use to lift the ban, why take the risk of disparaging a Mahasiddha and collect the negative karma from it. I certainly don't want to take that risk, I have enough bad karma to last me another 3 eons, not planning to add more to it.
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As far as I know, even Rinpochela does not speak ill of Dalai Lama,
”Speaking ill” of the evil dalai is a very difficult task.
not because the circumstances forces Rinpoche to not able to speak against DL, because we all know Rinpochela will never bend to any political or social pressure, which is the very reason why Rinpochela is still keeping His practice of Dorje Shugden.
Since that is the case, I'm following my teacher's footsteps and not condemn the DL, eventhough I feel the DL is wrong in so many ways. But that does not mean I don't fight for the ban to be lifted, but fighting through a method that does not disparage the DL or displease my teacher.
Remember, not everyone here are students of GKG. I do not know what Geshela have thought His students about the DL, but from the way some of you behave it is quite clear that Geshela would outwardly speak ill of DL.
Forcing people to follow your views, and calling people idiots for not agreeing with you. If there's such lack of tolerance even between Shugden practitioners, you can forget about asking the DL to lift the ban.
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As far as I know, even Rinpochela does not speak ill of Dalai Lama,
”Speaking ill” of the evil dalai is a very difficult task. So evil are his heinous actions that even buddhas would find it difficult to speak them out.
Anyway, there is no need to ”speak ill” of the evil dalai, or of any criminal or terrorist to that effect. Reality, the reality you want to cover, speaks for itself.
Since that is the case, I'm following my teacher's footsteps and not condemn the DL,
Your judgmental, childish mind confounds uncovering reality with ”condemning”. There is no need to ”condemn” anyone, not even the evil dalai. Indeed, it's enough to uncover the reality of his evil actions and character.
Since, however, your judgmental, un-Buddhistic mind is so much into ”condemning”, you yourself cannot refrain from condemning the uncovering of the evil dalai's crimes and character, which shows that you actual motivation is to cover them, as any of his accomplices would.
But that does not mean I don't fight for the ban to be lifted,
Fighting the ban? Why don't you try first to fight your own accomplicity with criminals and their crimes?
but fighting through a method that does not disparage the DL or displease my teacher.
This is because your actual teacher is the evil dalai, and just what you have learnt from him is to cover criminals and their crimes.
Remember, not everyone here are students of GKG.
Does one have to be ”a student of GKG” not to be the accomplice of a criminal, such as the evil dalai?
It should be enough to be a human being with a minimum moral sense.
I do not know what Geshela have thought His students about the DL, but from the way some of you behave it is quite clear that Geshela would outwardly speak ill of DL.
”Geshela” is hardly a topic on this thread. You are only talking about your own unwarranted fantasies and projections.
Forcing people to follow your views,
This is quite hilarious. Please tell the rest of us how is it possible to force anyone to follow one's views on an internet forum.
and calling people idiots for not agreeing with you.
The only one called ”idiot” on this thread was the idiot emperor without clothes of Andersen's fairy tale. If you identified with the gullible character, my apologies.
If there's such lack of tolerance even between Shugden practitioners,
You have just introjected the malicious anti-Shugden discourse of your ”mahasiddha”, the evil dalai, who sees ”intolerance” where there is only free and responsible speech.
you can forget about asking the DL to lift the ban.
Asking anything to a criminal? Why not to give up being his accomplice to start with?
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Q -
Geshe Kelsang has never "spoken ill" of the False Dalai Lama. saying that a deluded person is performing negative actions s not speaking ill, it is speaking the truth. sometimes, out of compassion for the deluded and those they harm, it is necessary to speak this truth.
i apologise for calling people idiots. i lack my Teacher's patience and skill. nevertheless, i stand by my statement that it is HARMFUL at this point to stand by and do nothing. to do nothing, when one has the opportunity, to prevent the innocent being oppressed is surely to side with the oppressor, is it not?
right now some people - including most Tibetans - do not have this opportunity, however realized they may be. just as Pabongkha Rinpoche had no choice but to appear to promise the 13th DL that he would no longer practise, and Trijang Rinpoche had no choice but to appear to say we should not disparage the False DL, so all those Tibetans currently under the political power of the False DL pretty much have no choice but to keep silent about his obvious, clearly deluded and destructive actions.
this is precisely why those of us with the good fortune to be free to think and act for ourselves MUST SPEAK OUT. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso Rinpoche had the foresight to give up his Tibetan citizenship and to dissociate NKT entirely from the influence of Tibetan politics many years ago. he and his students therefore are free to join ISC and say what the others so far mostly do not dare - despite the fact that, in private, MANY, MANY of them tell us repeatedly that they feel the same way and that they fully support our actions of protest. the protests are giving the Tibetans confidence to come out publicly and to state the truth: the False Dalai Lama is lying! more and more are joining ISC.
this is what CTA fears the most; so long as ISC protests are made up mainly of NKT students with western faces they can discount them as just a bunch of crazy Injis. the more Tibetans come out publicly and tell the world that the False Dalai Lama is lying, the harder the protests are for them to ignore. the world will see and understand that the False DL has lost his people's trust and their support - he will fold under the pressure and the ban will be lifted or disregarded.
NOW is the time to dispel false accusations against the innocent! Tibetans - STOP supporting the False Dalai Lama!
all the rest of you - PLEASE: stop disempowering the protests and splitting the pro-Shugden community! stand with the protests, or, if you cannot, stay silent.
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i apologise for calling people idiots.
You are unduly apologizing. You have not called anyone ”idiots”, at least on this thread, and anyone leveling against you such false accusation is brazenly lying.
Against me it's ok, because I did call the emperor without clothes ”an idiot”, and some people, funny enough, did take offence.
Far from it, what you did say was merely that
i stopped posting because i was so exasperated by this idiotic big picture idea.
But then, why should you ”apologize” just because someone else concocted such an idiotic idea. You should only be praised for pointing out the idiocy of such a misguided theory.
And why is this theory idiotic? Because it aims at duping people into accepting a criminal as a ”holy being”, and his crimes as the ”acts of a mahasiddha”.
Therefore, the ”big picture” theory is not only idiotic; it is criminal itself.
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why take the risk of disparaging a Mahasiddha and collect the negative karma from it.
The fact that you are not afraid of the negative karma of making yourself an accomplice of a criminal terrorist together with his crimes, calling them ”the acts of a mahasiddha”, shows that you do not believe in karma at all, but rather that you are just interested in politics.
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Wow! I can't believe people are still commenting on this thread. Anyway, I love the Dalai Lama is lying protests but I wish they would expand the tag lines and boundaries of the protest towards legitimizing Dorje Shugden as an authentic protector of the Gaden lineage or that he is an emanation of Manjushri or something more than just than Dalai Lama is lying. No country in the world current upholds the DS ban except within the Tibetan community of India. There are social norms and things we need to respect there in order to get the message across. Perhaps a different approach would get the message across better and reach a wider audience? Just a thought.
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Wow! I can't believe people are still commenting on this thread.
Stinking ideas, just like stinking stuff in general, sometimes require prolonged treatment.
Perhaps a different approach would get the message across better and reach a wider audience?
A less stinking approach this time, please.
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Big Uncle -
that's a fair point - to consider different angles that could be pursued in parallel to the existing ones. in fact, i think that the human rights/religious freedom angle is one that will continue to be emphasised in particular
as far as i know (which is not very far, to be fair!) the general consensus is that, in order to get the ban lifted and protect the lineage, we need to pressure the False DL to rescind the ban - or, failing that, we need to take away his power to maintain its legitimacy. this is because, as you know, we tried since 1996 to appeal to his reason, his compassion (his basic human decency!), to respectfully request discussion, etc. - all of which failed.
in the absence of any indication of willingness on his part to consider our position, we now find ourself having to resort to the second option: stripping him of his legitimacy and taking away his main weapon, the power of his speech.
to this end, pointing out to the world his lies and his harmful actions of repressing the right to freedom of worship of Tibetans under his control is the best - in fact, the only effective - method left to us.
i don't want to have to call anyone a liar. i don't want to be spat at in the street, or vilified online, or called a spirit-worshipper or a bought agent of the PRC. but i will continue to accept these things and do whatever i have to in order to protect our lineage for the sake of all suffering mother beings, as i know you will too.
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Anyway, I love the Dalai Lama is lying protests but I wish they would expand the tag lines and boundaries of the protest
On this one I have to agree with you. Just stating that the evil dalai is an infamous liar is way too weak, almost a praise to the evil terrorist.
There is a need to show that he is a barbaric, medieval witch-hunter, that he is promoting bloody riots and racist murderings, and that he is actively encouraging people to self-immolate.
People need to understand that we are dealing with an evil terrorist, nothing short from just that.
towards legitimizing Dorje Shugden as an authentic protector of the Gaden lineage or that he is an emanation of Manjushri or something more than just than Dalai Lama is lying
Actually what you want is *less* than the evil dalai is lying. As usual, you want to cover and protect the criminal, just like with your stinking proposition that the evil dalai is a ”mahasiddha”, shifting the protests to another topic.
Now, the legitimization of Dorje Shugden as an ”authentic protector of the Ganden lineage” and as ”an emanation of Manjushri” does not come from the evil dalai, or from public recognition; therefore it is not a topic for protests.
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We as a lay person should judge the master like HH because we just ordinary being who know very little , if HH is not a mahasiddha then how can he continue to take rebirth for 14 times as a great being like him if he is so bad he could have got to lower three realms.
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We as a lay person should judge the master like HH because we just ordinary being who know very little ,
Little, but enough to tell a terrorist from a Buddhist.
if HH is not a mahasiddha then how can he continue to take rebirth for 14 times as a great being like him
A great terrorist, therefore not the reincarnation of any great being.
if he is so bad he could have got to lower three realms.
Which is probably where the great terrorist 5th is, together with the great puppet and traitor 13th, and where the great terrorist 14th will join them.
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Hi Kelly,
Apparently you are unaware that he is not the actual Dalai Lama, therefore not part of a lineage of blessed tulkus. See the following:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=5040.0 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=5040.0)
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The act of a mahasiddha in this degenerate time would be very much different from the times of Mahasiddha Tilopa, Virupa, Naropa and so on. With the current times, humans are more brutal. The acts of a mahasiddha may require a harsher and brutal methods to tame the minds now. During the times of Virupa, all was needed was an act of miracles to bring people to the dharma!
It would definitely be possible that whatever HHDL is doing, as harsh it may appear to be is an act of a Mahasiddha. However, I can only be 100% sure once this is all over through results. Did this ban bring thousands and thousands to Buddhism? Or was this just a meaningless decision? Only time can tell.
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I have yet to attain the wisdom and compassion of a Buddha therefore I cant tell whether HHDL is using his skills like a mahasidha. But I do believe that He is an emanation of Chenresig like what my Guru and lineage masters tell me despite what people are saying. I believe that all these collective sufferings are purification of negative karma and that will lead to ripening of positive karma and merits that will lift the ban and grow into something huge and beneficial for many. And I do believe in the karma of wrong views, bad speech and thoughts.
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There are always two side of a story in whatever we are going to do or decide. Whether HHTDL intention of imposing the ban of practicing Dorje Shugden is with good intention or not, with so much suffering, lost of life, families were separated and ultimately this ban had created disharmonious among the sangha members between students and their gurus. I really thing it is time for HHTDL seriously consider to lift the ban as soon as possible if His intention is to spread the teaching of the Protector Dorje Shugden are with good motivation and it is the act of a Mahasiddha.
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The act of a mahasiddha in this degenerate time would be very much different from the times of Mahasiddha Tilopa, Virupa, Naropa and so on.
While our times are degenerate, a mahasiddha is never degenerate, whereby the evil, degenerate dalai can only be a ”mahasiddha” in the mind of the degenerate people of our times, as exemplified by you.
However, I have to agree with you that the evil dalai, like our times, is very degenerate indeed.
With the current times, humans are more brutal.
Sure, as exemplified by the brutal terrorist dalai, and by people supporting his brutalities, such as you.
The acts of a mahasiddha may require a harsher and brutal methods to tame the minds now.
Are you proposing violence and brutality to deal with the evil terrorist dalai and his minions? Are you proposing that they should be brutally murdered?
Any Buddhist will disagree with your bestial approach. They should be criminally charged, imprisoned, and reeducated, just like any criminal, no matter how brutal they may be.
Your brazen, shameless advocacy of brutal methods is obnoxious and repugnant. You should be summarily banned from this website for your unacceptable advocacy of violence.
By the way, your attempt to justify brutality is very much akin to the Jewish-Christian defense of the bloody actions perpetrated by their evil ”prophets”, as described in their ”bible”.
This shows that your advocacy of violence stems from your Abrahamic barbaric beliefs, which are thoroughly repugnant to Buddhism and Buddhists.
During the times of Virupa, all was needed was an act of miracles to bring people to the dharma!
Je Tsongkhapa said that there is no miracle beyond the Buddha's teaching of dependent arising. This is the firm belief of every single follower of Je Tsongkhapa and Dorje Shugden practitioner.
But you, together with the evil terrorist dalai, believe in violence and brutal methods, which for you are better than miracles. This shows how degenerate is your mind, just like our times.
It would definitely be possible that whatever HHDL is doing, as harsh it may appear to be is an act of a Mahasiddha.
This is because you, just like Jews, Christians, Muslims and dalaites, and barbarians in general, believe in violence. Your model of ”mahasiddha” is the Jewish mass murdering ”prophet”.
Meanwhile, we Buddhists, and specifically we, followers of Je Tsongkhapa and practitioners of Dorje Shugden, always believe in non-violence. As opposed to you, we thoroughly reject violence and brutality.
However, I can only be 100% sure once this is all over through results.
The only result of brutality, as advocated by you, is suffering in the hell realms. Since you want to get there in order to be 100% sure, good luck. At least there you will enjoy the company of your evil hero, the degenerate terrorist dalai.
Did this ban bring thousands and thousands to Buddhism? Or was this just a meaningless decision? Only time can tell.
Buddhism, as opposed to Christianity and Islam, is not about ”bringing thousand and thousands” through brutality, as you propose.
Christianity and Islam are not better, and actually are much worse, because they did ”bring thousands and thousands” through brutality, as you propose.
Now, if you want to follow the Christian-Muslim path of brutality, please go and join Islamic Takfiri terrorists in Iraq, or the minions of the evil dalai, but do not defile this website and forum with your repugnant advocacy of brutality.
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I have yet to attain the wisdom and compassion of a Buddha therefore I cant tell whether HHDL is using his skills like a mahasidha.
Still, it is enough that you use direct perception and reason to know that he is an evil terrorist.
But I do believe that He is an emanation of Chenresig like what my Guru and lineage masters tell me despite what people are saying.
The point is, deep inside your guts you believe in terrorism and terrorists, such as the evil dalai, but you lack the balls to take responsibility for your depraved belief, and thus hide yourself behind what you call ”Guru and lineage masters”, in order to protect your own reputation.
I believe that all these collective sufferings are purification of negative karma and that will lead to ripening of positive karma and merits that will lift the ban and grow into something huge and beneficial for many.
Then, according to you and your ”Gurus and lineage masters”, causing schism within the Sangha, which is the worst among the 5 heinous actions of immediate retribution, is a ”positive karma” which will ripe as ”merits” and be beneficial to many.
If so, according to your ”Gurus and lineage masters”, killing one's own father and mother, killing an arhat, and causing a buddha to bleed, are also ”acts of a Chenrezig” which will ”purify negative karma” and be ”hugely beneficial to many”.
And I do believe in the karma of wrong views, bad speech and thoughts.
You are lying. You believe in terrorism, in violence, in brutality, in murdering, in self-immolations, in racist riots, in social strife and chaos, which is what your hero the evil terrorist promotes, with your fanatic support and perverted admiration.
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As far as I know, even Rinpochela does not speak ill of Dalai Lama,
”Speaking ill” of the evil dalai is a very difficult task. So evil are his heinous actions that even buddhas would find it difficult to speak them out.
Anyway, there is no need to ”speak ill” of the evil dalai, or of any criminal or terrorist to that effect. Reality, the reality you want to cover, speaks for itself.
Since that is the case, I'm following my teacher's footsteps and not condemn the DL,
Your judgmental, childish mind confounds uncovering reality with ”condemning”. There is no need to ”condemn” anyone, not even the evil dalai. Indeed, it's enough to uncover the reality of his evil actions and character.
Since, however, your judgmental, un-Buddhistic mind is so much into ”condemning”, you yourself cannot refrain from condemning the uncovering of the evil dalai's crimes and character, which shows that you actual motivation is to cover them, as any of his accomplices would.
But that does not mean I don't fight for the ban to be lifted,
Fighting the ban? Why don't you try first to fight your own accomplicity with criminals and their crimes?
but fighting through a method that does not disparage the DL or displease my teacher.
This is because your actual teacher is the evil dalai, and just what you have learnt from him is to cover criminals and their crimes.
Remember, not everyone here are students of GKG.
Does one have to be ”a student of GKG” not to be the accomplice of a criminal, such as the evil dalai?
It should be enough to be a human being with a minimum moral sense.
I do not know what Geshela have thought His students about the DL, but from the way some of you behave it is quite clear that Geshela would outwardly speak ill of DL.
”Geshela” is hardly a topic on this thread. You are only talking about your own unwarranted fantasies and projections.
Forcing people to follow your views,
This is quite hilarious. Please tell the rest of us how is it possible to force anyone to follow one's views on an internet forum.
and calling people idiots for not agreeing with you.
The only one called ”idiot” on this thread was the idiot emperor without clothes of Andersen's fairy tale. If you identified with the gullible character, my apologies.
If there's such lack of tolerance even between Shugden practitioners,
You have just introjected the malicious anti-Shugden discourse of your ”mahasiddha”, the evil dalai, who sees ”intolerance” where there is only free and responsible speech.
you can forget about asking the DL to lift the ban.
Asking anything to a criminal? Why not to give up being his accomplice to start with?
Oh gosh this is truly tiresome
No one in this forum will deny that the actions of the DL have brought about great suffering to a portion of the Tibetan Community (and even to a certain extent, Western Buddhists). But how each person view the DL is our own problem.
Before you call people 'judgmental', look at yourself in the mirror. Your false accusations of me as a follower/supporter of DL is childish and ignorant. Stop being narrow minded, just because people do not wish to call the DL 'evil', 'demon' or whatever, does not make them supporters of DL.
Remember, not everyone here are students of GKG.
Does one have to be ”a student of GKG” not to be the accomplice of a criminal, such as the evil dalai?
It should be enough to be a human being with a minimum moral sense.
Yes exactly my point, not everyone here (whom are DS practitioners) are GKG students, so what's your point?
Geshela is not a topic because you dont want it to be. Well whatever it is, I have nothing bad to talk about Geshela, since I highly value Geshela from day 1. My point is, if we can so conveniently point out how barbaric and idiotic the DL followers are behaving, maybe it's time you guys reflect back on how your behavior will impact Geshela's image (if it matters to you of course).
If you do not feel that being in this forum or having an online presence will influence people of their opinion, then why on earth are you in this forum? Too much free time? Maybe you can use it to reflect and practice Buddhism.
If you're not asking the 'criminal' to lift the ban, then what are your protests about? Too much free time also?
Think before you type, or you will appear like those idiotic pro-dl Tibetans that only reply to Shugden practitioners with statements like 'F YOU' or 'Go to hell' etc, with the only difference being your more extensive use of vocabulary.
Accept the fact that there are Shugden practitioners that do not wish to think ill of the DL. Just as how some Shugden practitioners do not approve of the ISC's protests but don't make a HUGE ISSUE OUT OF IT; well, give the same respect back to them.
You want to talk about fantasies and projections? Well, let me tell you the facts. It does not matter what we think about the DL, we can call him evil, demon whatever, but ultimately the only thing that matters is what the world think about him; and guess what, the world wants to keep their fantasy about this heroic and pure monk. As more tragedies happen, the DL is becoming more famous with his 'peace talks'. Truth be told, if DS had a PR manager, he would say that is one hell of a bad image to build on Shugden practitioners. Sure there are people that would start questioning the truth about the DL, but you can't deny that a majority of these people will not go that far to question the truth, and you damn well know you can't deny that unless of course you're trapped in your own fantasies and projections.
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Oh gosh this is truly tiresome
So true. Why don't you rest, and give a rest to the rest of us?
But how each person view the DL is our own problem.
So true. Why then are you concerned with the topic?
Before you call people 'judgmental', look at yourself in the mirror.
No complex of Evil Queen here. Anyway, if you find me ”judgmental”, please tell me when and why, instead of just blabbering generic accusations.
Your false accusations of me as a follower/supporter of DL is childish and ignorant.
I don't remember having ever accused you of anything. Please substantiate your claims or they will be ignored.
Stop being narrow minded, just because people do not wish to call the DL 'evil', 'demon' or whatever, does not make them supporters of DL.
Actually, I could not care less about what you call or not the evil dalai. I don't care either if you are or not a supporter of the evil dalai. This is anyone's personal problem. I wonder why you bring this topic to a public forum. Maybe you discuss it with your psychiatrist.
Yes exactly my point, not everyone here (whom are DS practitioners) are GKG students, so what's your point?
You quoted it, I assume you can read. But I repeat only once for free: my point is that just because one is not a student of teacher A or B one does not have to behave like a stooge, licking the buttocks of a criminal. But if this is your taste, again, this is just your personal problem.
maybe it's time you guys reflect back on how your behavior will impact Geshela's image (if it matters to you of course).
You are obsessed with this topic of teacher A or B, which exists only in your mind. Maybe you report it to your psychiatrist.
If you do not feel that being in this forum or having an online presence will influence people of their opinion, then why on earth are you in this forum? Too much free time? Maybe you can use it to reflect and practice Buddhism.
Do not become obsessed with ”influencing people”. This is a mundane concern.
If you're not asking the 'criminal' to lift the ban, then what are your protests about? Too much free time also?
Could you please provide a bit of context to your question? Is it still about the Dalai Lama?
Think before you type, or you will appear like those idiotic pro-dl Tibetans that only reply to Shugden practitioners with statements like 'F YOU' or 'Go to hell' etc, with the only difference being your more extensive use of vocabulary.
Do not concern yourself with appearances. This is the mark of the fool.
Accept the fact that there are Shugden practitioners that do not wish to think ill of the DL. Just as how some Shugden practitioners do not approve of the ISC's protests but don't make a HUGE ISSUE OUT OF IT; well, give the same respect back to them.
This is a bit off-topic. The topic here is only whether or not the evil dalai is a mahasiddha, period.
You want to talk about fantasies and projections? [...] you can't deny that unless of course you're trapped in your own fantasies and projections.
Yawn. Talking about fantasies and projections, is the evil dalai still a ”mahasiddha”? Please keep us updated.
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i agree with Matibhadra that to publicly state that the False Dalai Lama is a Mahasiddha is to support his evil actions. some of you have even said this: that his actions will utimately be beneficial, for example.
you must understand how utterly insane that sounds to anyone familiar with the suffering and damage the ban is causing?
if you want to hold that view in private, good luck to you. but the moment you start publicly discussing it then you become a part of the problem. you are confusing the public about the issue, sowing division and doubt amongst Shugden practitioners, undermining the power of the protests, and ultimately doing the False Dalai Lama's job for him.
spreading this idea is helping the False DL to destroy the path to liberation for all beings. i'll take the karma of a speaking a few harsh truths over that karma any day.
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i agree with Matibhadra that to publicly state that the False Dalai Lama is a Mahasiddha is to support his evil actions. some of you have even said this: that his actions will utimately be beneficial, for example.
you must understand how utterly insane that sounds to anyone familiar with the suffering and damage the ban is causing?
if you want to hold that view in private, good luck to you. but the moment you start publicly discussing it then you become a part of the problem. you are confusing the public about the issue, sowing division and doubt amongst Shugden practitioners, undermining the power of the protests, and ultimately doing the False Dalai Lama's job for him.
spreading this idea is helping the False DL to destroy the path to liberation for all beings. i'll take the karma of a speaking a few harsh truths over that karma any day.
You are being dramatic. This is just a forum discussion about the possibility that the Dalai Lama could be a Mahasiddha. Anybody has the right to state their opinion one way or another as long as they have a good sound reasoning behind it and that they are not rude. Please do not make unnecessary Doomsday threats here. The success of the protest does not depend on the threat of a forum discussion. This discussion would never undermine the protests and the protest alone cannot lift the ban. People also need to know the nature of Dorje Shugden and that he is really who Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche says he is. Don't you think?
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"People also need to know the nature of Dorje Shugden and that he is really who Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche says he is. Don't you think?"
absolutely - of course.
we're on the same team - we have the same goal. perhaps, as you say, one discussion on one forum doesn't amount to so much. but it's not just that, is it? this is a view which makes MANY people vacillate - and then do nothing practical to oppose and lift the ban. Geshe Kelsang's students are lucky - he is not under the CTA's power in any way, and neither are they. apart from a very few brave individuals, it's taken almost twenty years for other Shugden Lamas and practitioners - despite privately supporting SSC, WSS & ISC - to come out publicly and lend their strength to the efforts to oppose the ban. many still feel unable to do so. i don't blame them for this; i know they have their reasons. but at least they and their students could refrain from actively weakening the opposition by spreading this confusing doubt.
doubt is our inner enemy, here. we need to be confident: Dorje Shugden is the enlightened Wisdom Protector of the Ganden Oral tradition, of Je Tsongkhapa's lineage. this is the quick path to enlightenment in these degenerate times! now is the time to dispel false accusations against the innocent! stand up and speak out! or at least, lend support tacitly by saying nothing counter-productive.
we are on the same team. peace and respect,
AC x
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Dear Atisha's Cook,
I think I see what you are trying to say about people not saying publically that the Dalai Lama's act is an act of a Mahasidda, as that would confuse people generally, as it would generally require a secret practice of 'everyone is a Buddha."
It is okay, though, I think in the context of this forum if that is what they really think if they express it, because most people who have joined the forum have some familiarity (and in many cases a lot of familiarity) with Buddhism and with the inner view that many maintain of everyone--- no particular politicians alone--- but everybody.
I do hear what you are saying though, that if I am explaining this to a non-Buddhist family member or something, that it wouldn't make sense to say well, I see so and so as a Buddha, but teaching backwards etc etc.... because that would just confuse them, as they are not familiar with Buddhist teachings about inner view; like even if I see the Dalai Lama as a Buddha teaching in reverse, outwardly for me, the appropriate thing to do is say his actions are wrong, because that is the teaching I think he is trying to give us, would he be a Buddha.
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"even if I see the Dalai Lama as a Buddha teaching in reverse, outwardly for me, the appropriate thing to do is say his actions are wrong, because that is the teaching I think he is trying to give us, would he be a Buddha."
yup.
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Oh gosh this is truly tiresome
So true. Why don't you rest, and give a rest to the rest of us?
But how each person view the DL is our own problem.
So true. Why then are you concerned with the topic?
Before you call people 'judgmental', look at yourself in the mirror.
No complex of Evil Queen here. Anyway, if you find me ”judgmental”, please tell me when and why, instead of just blabbering generic accusations.
Your false accusations of me as a follower/supporter of DL is childish and ignorant.
I don't remember having ever accused you of anything. Please substantiate your claims or they will be ignored.
Stop being narrow minded, just because people do not wish to call the DL 'evil', 'demon' or whatever, does not make them supporters of DL.
Actually, I could not care less about what you call or not the evil dalai. I don't care either if you are or not a supporter of the evil dalai. This is anyone's personal problem. I wonder why you bring this topic to a public forum. Maybe you discuss it with your psychiatrist.
Yes exactly my point, not everyone here (whom are DS practitioners) are GKG students, so what's your point?
You quoted it, I assume you can read. But I repeat only once for free: my point is that just because one is not a student of teacher A or B one does not have to behave like a stooge, licking the buttocks of a criminal. But if this is your taste, again, this is just your personal problem.
maybe it's time you guys reflect back on how your behavior will impact Geshela's image (if it matters to you of course).
You are obsessed with this topic of teacher A or B, which exists only in your mind. Maybe you report it to your psychiatrist.
If you do not feel that being in this forum or having an online presence will influence people of their opinion, then why on earth are you in this forum? Too much free time? Maybe you can use it to reflect and practice Buddhism.
Do not become obsessed with ”influencing people”. This is a mundane concern.
If you're not asking the 'criminal' to lift the ban, then what are your protests about? Too much free time also?
Could you please provide a bit of context to your question? Is it still about the Dalai Lama?
Think before you type, or you will appear like those idiotic pro-dl Tibetans that only reply to Shugden practitioners with statements like 'F YOU' or 'Go to hell' etc, with the only difference being your more extensive use of vocabulary.
Do not concern yourself with appearances. This is the mark of the fool.
Accept the fact that there are Shugden practitioners that do not wish to think ill of the DL. Just as how some Shugden practitioners do not approve of the ISC's protests but don't make a HUGE ISSUE OUT OF IT; well, give the same respect back to them.
This is a bit off-topic. The topic here is only whether or not the evil dalai is a mahasiddha, period.
You want to talk about fantasies and projections? [...] you can't deny that unless of course you're trapped in your own fantasies and projections.
Yawn. Talking about fantasies and projections, is the evil dalai still a ”mahasiddha”? Please keep us updated.
LOL! Well you just quoted my last message to you, I don't troll. Good luck.
@MODERATOR: I demand you look into this person's account. I do not think he/she(?) is here to learn or debate logically, and is obviously causing disharmony in this forum. Go back on all 7 pages of this post and see them trolling the people that thinks DL is a Mahasiddha. As far as I understand, this forum does not welcome trolls. Thanks
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LOL! Well you just quoted my last message to you, I don't troll. Good luck.
Since this is precisely what you have just done, this means that you have short-circuited. Maybe a result of praying too much to the evil dalai. Good luck to you too, anyway.
@MODERATOR: I demand you look into this person's account. I do not think he/she(?) is here to learn or debate logically, and is obviously causing disharmony in this forum. Go back on all 7 pages of this post and see them trolling the people that thinks DL is a Mahasiddha. As far as I understand, this forum does not welcome trolls. Thanks
What a powerful argument. You should have used it before. I'm almost convinced that the evil dalai is indeed a mahasiddha. Just in case he is not, please report to the moderator.
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Q,
Though some of Matibhadra's language specifically attacking individuals may seem misplaced, they make many important points, and since the main point of life is to increase realization, I contend that having someone here that tests our patience with some slight insult is wonderful. How kind Matibhadra is to clarify important things while poking at our worldly concerns. Thank you Matibhadra.
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HH The Dalai Lama is definitely a Mahasiddha. As he is an enlightened being, someone who have attainments, and someone who is like a Buddha. I dare not to doubt HH The Dalai Lama. What I heard from a lot of people is that this is a way of HH The Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden working together to spread the holy Dharma, to achieve something big. Sometimes you just need to sacrifice something to achieve something even bigger. That is how I see it. May all the things that have to be achieved be achieved faster so that all the Tibetan and Monks do not have to suffer anymore.
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Though some of Matibhadra's language specifically attacking individuals may seem misplaced, they make many important points, and since the main point of life is to increase realization, I contend that having someone here that tests our patience with some slight insult is wonderful. How kind Matibhadra is to clarify important things while poking at our worldly concerns. Thank you Matibhadra.
Dear Matibhadra,
While you are most welcome on this forum and you bring about quite a lively discussion on important matters, I would ask you to kindly be more skillful when addressing other participants. Given your mastery in debating your points, I would say that it would not be difficult for you to skew your opinions differently.
Thank you.
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yeah occasionally i start to think maybe Matribhadra's being a little too strong. then i read something like this:
HH The Dalai Lama is definitely a Mahasiddha. As he is an enlightened being, someone who have attainments, and someone who is like a Buddha. I dare not to doubt HH The Dalai Lama. What I heard from a lot of people is that this is a way of HH The Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden working together to spread the holy Dharma, to achieve something big. Sometimes you just need to sacrifice something to achieve something even bigger. That is how I see it. May all the things that have to be achieved be achieved faster so that all the Tibetan and Monks do not have to suffer anymore.
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Matibhadra, sorry. rogue 'r'.
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We won't know for sure now until much later but looking at it , from what I can see, His Holiness is facing so much criticism for implementing the ban against Shugden. Why did he put himself up to such levels of scrutiny and outlash by the public for reasons he knows is easily rebutted when subjected to debate? He is a master of debate himself, so why would he give such silly reasons for the ban, and go against his gurus, just to impose a ban which the public can totally see through is built from lies? The results of this ban has spread far and wide, with increasing practitioners of Dorje Shugden (who has been predicted to be the Buddha that we will all rely on in this degenerate age) all around the world, more lamas bringing the practise to the world, more monasteries built dedicated to the spread of Dorje Shugden's lineage... it has had a positive 'repercussion', though the discrimination that practitioners have to endure is terrible. Whatever it may be, Mahasiddha or not, I know that the ban has to come down, so that all these increased practitioners worldwide, and Tibetans can practise freely.
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Q,
Though some of Matibhadra's language specifically attacking individuals may seem misplaced, they make many important points, and since the main point of life is to increase realization, I contend that having someone here that tests our patience with some slight insult is wonderful. How kind Matibhadra is to clarify important things while poking at our worldly concerns. Thank you Matibhadra.
Dear Psylotripitaka,
Thank you for your message. Reading your message calmed my mind.
However, unfortunately I do not share your view of Matibhadra. Calling the DL 'terrorist', 'evil', etc is just not right, as it instigate greater hate (which is unnecessary), I'm very sure no one want's to gain THAT realization.
This forum is 'Dorje Shugden Forum', not 'Spread the hate forum'. I have seen his replies to other people too, and it is obvious how he attacks them just for having a different view from him in regards to the Dalai Lama. It appears that he is no different from those Pro-Shugden Tibetan Extremists that openly said they would kill Trijang Rinpoche just because Trijang Rinpoche met with the Dalai Lama.
Food for thought: No one at this point of time and place has tested our patience more than the Dalai Lama, whom has also gave us the biggest insult we can imagine by forcing us to disparage our teachers. So do we give a thousand fold worth of Thank Yous to the Dalai Lama? lol.
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"No one at this point of time and place has tested our patience more than the Dalai Lama, whom has also gave us the biggest insult we can imagine by forcing us to disparage our teachers. So do we give a thousand fold worth of Thank Yous to the Dalai Lama?"
yes, of course (though nobody has forced me personally to disparage my teachers). we thank the False DL for testing our patience, just as we thank any other highly deluded individual who tests our patience and our unconditional love - but we do that in our hearts, secretly, according to the conventions of our society. at the same time, we stand up and try as best we can to STOP their harmful and abusive actions. in my view, this is all Matibhadra is doing: calling a spade a spade and an evil terrorist an evil terrorist.
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"No one at this point of time and place has tested our patience more than the Dalai Lama, whom has also gave us the biggest insult we can imagine by forcing us to disparage our teachers. So do we give a thousand fold worth of Thank Yous to the Dalai Lama?"
yes, of course (though nobody has forced me personally to disparage my teachers). we thank the False DL for testing our patience, just as we thank any other highly deluded individual who tests our patience and our unconditional love - but we do that in our hearts, secretly, according to the conventions of our society. at the same time, we stand up and try as best we can to STOP their harmful and abusive actions. in my view, this is all Matibhadra is doing: calling a spade a spade and an evil terrorist an evil terrorist.
Hi Atisha's cook,
I am just urging caution on the term 'calling a spade a spade' as the NPR article below also does. It originally did not have racial overtones, according to the article, but now may be interpreted that way, so just please exercise caution, as we wouldn't want to be seen as racist.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2013/09/19/224183763/is-it-racist-to-call-a-spade-a-spade (http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2013/09/19/224183763/is-it-racist-to-call-a-spade-a-spade)
http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2013/09/19/224183763/is-it-racist-to-call-a-spade-a-spade (http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2013/09/19/224183763/is-it-racist-to-call-a-spade-a-spade)
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srsly?
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@Atisha's cook,
I am not saying in anyway that you intend to be racist, just that the phrase has evolved overtime to have racist connotations, so I was just saying, and not meaning any offense at all.
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HH The Dalai Lama is definitely a Mahasiddha.
“Mahasiddha” is in the eyes of the beholder. Those like you supporting terrorist acts, such as those perpetrated by the evil dalai, will always see a “mahasiddha” in the evil terrorist.
Therefore, it is not so much that the evil dalai is a “mahasiddha”, but mainly that people like you need some kind of icon to legitimize and sanctify their own bestial, terrorist instincts.
As he is an enlightened being, someone who have attainments, and someone who is like a Buddha.
In a Buddhist culture, a “buddha” is the paradigm of goodness and excellence. Therefore, anyone wanting to promote and empower a terrorist will call him or her “a buddha”.
I dare not to doubt HH The Dalai Lama.
This is precisely what makes you not a Buddhist.
While Buddhists go for refuge to the Three Jewels, you go for refuge to an evil terrorist.
And while Buddhists are supposed to check even a authentic guru, you do not dare to doubt even an authentic terrorist.
Therefore, it is just natural that in your dalaite pseudo-religion the evil dalai is praised as a “mahasiddha”.
What I heard from a lot of people is that this is a way of HH The Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden working together to spread the holy Dharma, to achieve something big.
A big pollution of Dharma with the dirtiest politics, at best.
Sometimes you just need to sacrifice something to achieve something even bigger.
What you are brazenly proposing is to sacrifice the purity of Je Tsongkhapa's tradition in order to achieve great mundane success with your “mahasiddha”, the evil dalai.
That is how I see it. May all the things that have to be achieved be achieved faster so that all the Tibetan and Monks do not have to suffer anymore.
Sure. If all Dorje Shugden practitioners are fastly converted to dalaism, or eliminated, they will not have to suffer anymore, right? This is your “big achievement”. And then evil dalai will be a “mahasiddha” forever and ever.
Bottom line, dalaism, being an evil, terrorist cult personality, is thoroughly incompatible not only with any form of Buddhism, but also with even the barest minimum of human decency, as shown by your impudent, shameless remarks.
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While you are most welcome on this forum and you bring about quite a lively discussion on important matters, I would ask you to kindly be more skillful when addressing other participants.
Some people just feign to take offence at my remarks, as a cheap tactics aimed at distracting the readers' attention from the essential point, which is their brazen, shameless support to terrorism and terrorists.
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yeah occasionally i start to think maybe Matribhadra's being a little too strong.
If my remarks are wrong they surely can always be corrected, and I'll humbly accept and be thankful for the correction.
Otherwise, what is strong are not my remarks, but their subject, to wit, the bestiality of anyone's support to terrorism and terrorists. This is shocking, this is outrageous, not my remarks.
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Ma(i)t(r)ibhadra, sorry. rogue 'r'.
No rogue, friendly love!
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Reading your message calmed my mind.
Great. Hotheadedness brings no good.
However, unfortunately I do not share your view of Matibhadra. Calling the DL 'terrorist', 'evil', etc is just not right, as it instigate greater hate (which is unnecessary), I'm very sure no one want's to gain THAT realization.
Realization of reality never instigates hatred. Hatred is only a result of hotheadedness, which is your own confessed speciality.
This forum is 'Dorje Shugden Forum', not 'Spread the hate forum'.
If so, why do you insist on spreading the hateful message of the evil terrorist dalai, promoting him as a “mahasiddha”? Because you are hotheaded? Or because you lack realization of reality? Or surely both, I would say.
I have seen his replies to other people too, and it is obvious how he attacks them just for having a different view from him in regards to the Dalai Lama.
This is a very distorted view. I have never attacked anyone, not even the evil terrorist dalai. I just analyze reality. If I am wrong, please just correct me instead of resorting to sordid, unwarranted personal attacks.
It appears that he is no different from those Pro-Shugden Tibetan Extremists that openly said they would kill Trijang Rinpoche just because Trijang Rinpoche met with the Dalai Lama.
Never heard of such extremists. Did you invent them in a frenzy of hotheadedness, or did you just introject some ridiculous dalaite invention?
[...] the Dalai Lama, whom has also gave us the biggest insult we can imagine by forcing us to disparage our teachers.
Having felt insulted, and forced to disparage your teachers, always by the evil dalai, now you identify with, and even feel the need to sanctify, your depraved captor, to the point of calling him a ”mahasiddha”. This is known as “Stockholm Syndrome”, which affects many spiritual hostages of cult leaders such as the evil dalai.
Stockholm syndrome, or capture-bonding, is a psychological phenomenon in which hostages express empathy and sympathy and have positive feelings toward their captors, sometimes to the point of defending and identifying with them. [...] Identifying with the aggressor is one way that the ego defends itself. When a victim believes the same values as the aggressor, they cease to be perceived as a threat.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome
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I'm onboard with Matibhadra and Atisha's Cook on this. As you can see with my other posts in this thread, I have shared some thoughts in an attempt to help people reconcile their Guru-disciple relationship with a person whose actions are non-Buddhist. I understand your dilemma, but I also see how it is difficult for the message of these two mentioned members to get through to you.
As I said, it is possible to keep pure view while at the same time taking practical steps according to conventional appearances. The following is a view based in the conventions of society and Dharma itself.
Lhamo Dondrub (the proper name of the false Dalai Lama) has abandoned his lineage Gurus, contradicts the Dharma and his vows and commitments, and is therefore not a valid teacher or holder of lineage. I understand where some of you are coming from, but the actions of Lhamo Dondrub are so non-Buddhist that it is completely inappropriate not only to dare give him a title earned only by true Masters who've worked their ass off in meditation - Mahasiddha - but to even rely upon such a degenerate person for one's spiritual growth. Have you read the Lamrim teachings about the disadvantages of improper actions towards a valid Guru? If it is detrimental to one's spiritual development to closely associate with people who speak ill of one's Guru's or spiritual life, it is certainly detrimental to one's spiritual development to rely upon someone who acts as Lhamo Dondrub. To put him in the same category as actual Mahasiddha's such as Saraha, Tilopa, Naropa, Milarepa, Padmasambhava, Gyelwa Ensapa and so on is completely inappropriate and ridiculous.
As Atisha's Cook said, if you're gonna have this view, keep it to yourself, don't propagate it publicly. What is of paramount importance on this website is NOT to promote Lhamo Dondrub, but to invalidate his ban. It does not promote this aim to also promote him as a valid Teacher.
Bottom line - Lhamo Dondrub abandoned his lineage Gurus, disparages them publicly, has engaged in an aggressive campaign to destroy the precious Gelug lineage, and encouraged a cultural revolution-style violence towards Buddhist practitioners. Those who continue to rely upon him and support his actions should be ashamed of themselves.
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I'm onboard with Matibhadra and Atisha's Cook on this. As you can see with my other posts in this thread, I have shared some thoughts in an attempt to help people reconcile their Guru-disciple relationship with a person whose actions are non-Buddhist. I understand your dilemma, but I also see how it is difficult for the message of these two mentioned members to get through to you.
As I said, it is possible to keep pure view while at the same time taking practical steps according to conventional appearances. The following is a view based in the conventions of society and Dharma itself.
Lhamo Dondrub (the proper name of the false Dalai Lama) has abandoned his lineage Gurus, contradicts the Dharma and his vows and commitments, and is therefore not a valid teacher or holder of lineage. I understand where some of you are coming from, but the actions of Lhamo Dondrub are so non-Buddhist that it is completely inappropriate not only to dare give him a title earned only by true Masters who've worked their ass off in meditation - Mahasiddha - but to even rely upon such a degenerate person for one's spiritual growth. Have you read the Lamrim teachings about the disadvantages of improper actions towards a valid Guru? If it is detrimental to one's spiritual development to closely associate with people who speak ill of one's Guru's or spiritual life, it is certainly detrimental to one's spiritual development to rely upon someone who acts as Lhamo Dondrub. To put him in the same category as actual Mahasiddha's such as Saraha, Tilopa, Naropa, Milarepa, Padmasambhava, Gyelwa Ensapa and so on is completely inappropriate and ridiculous.
As Atisha's Cook said, if you're gonna have this view, keep it to yourself, don't propagate it publicly. What is of paramount importance on this website is NOT to promote Lhamo Dondrub, but to invalidate his ban. It does not promote this aim to also promote him as a valid Teacher.
Bottom line - Lhamo Dondrub abandoned his lineage Gurus, disparages them publicly, has engaged in an aggressive campaign to destroy the precious Gelug lineage, and encouraged a cultural revolution-style violence towards Buddhist practitioners. Those who continue to rely upon him and support his actions should be ashamed of themselves.
I am sorry but not everyone agrees with you that this is a false Dalai Lama. At this point, I do not wish to engage in a lengthy debate about the Dalai Lama but to ask you what's your point in degrading the Dalai Lama? I think you are saying this is to let the followers of the Dalai Lama that they should be ashamed of themselves and then what? After insulting their lama whom they believe to be the incarnation of Avalokiteshvara/Chenrezig, you expect them to renounce the Dalai Lama and pressure him to release the ban? Wouldn't that make us no different than the followers of the Dalai Lama, degrading the Shugden lineage lamas to justify the ban. Wouldn't that just infuriate and incite them to be violent? Remember that many of those you are dealing with are Tibetans. Before you jump to conclusions, think it through first.
Notice I said us because we are all practitioners of Dorje Shugden. I am saying this because we are all on the same side, suffering in one way or another, the effects of the ban. Some of us may share differences in opinion of how we want to fight the Dorje Shugden ban. We should remember that we are all on the same side. I just want to point to the fact that some of us would very much like to fight the ban head on and especially on those who enforces the ban directly like the CTA. Another way is to promote and highlight the identity and qualities of Dorje Shugden in the world because eventually the truth will come out. It has to come out and the lies that have been propagated will be quickly refuted. Just thought I share what I have in mind...
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"Wouldn't that make us no different than the followers of the Dalai Lama, degrading the Shugden lineage lamas to justify the ban."
no, of course it wouldn't. the Shugden lineage Lamas have not broken their samaya with their own Lamas, broken almost all their vows and attempted to destroy their lineage and the Dharma itself by mixing it with politics! the False Dalai Lama is completely incomparable with them.
it doesn't matter what your opinion is: Lhamo Dondrub is not the Dalai Lama, as is clearly proven by Reting Lama's confession that he picked the boy at random to save his own position - if in fact there ever was a correctly recognized lineage after the 3rd or 4th; the 5th was a murdering politician - hardly an enlightened being!
those who have faith in the False Dalai Lama have placed their faith in a wrong object, as is clearly proven by his evil behaviour. to believe anything else is to ignore the facts. this is not a matter of opinion, or debate, or "pure view".
i'm sorry but this is the truth.
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Big Uncle, I hear what you are saying, but I put myself in their position, then consider the holy Dharma, and if any of my Lamas were doing as Lhamo Dondrub, I would:
1) Not at all be dismayed by people telling the truth about my Teacher
2) I would immediately recognize how harmful it is to my spiritual life to rely on such a person, immediately distance myself, and seek out a Lama who possesses the qualifications outlined in the Lamrim and Lama Chopa commentaries.
After everything he's done, that people cannot acknowledge the fact that according to the holy Dharma itself Lhamo Dondrub is not a valid lineage holder is stunning, and is frankly an indication that they do not understand the meaning of lineage or value the necessity of receiving a clean lineage transmission as the very source of attaining authentic realizations.
It is an indisputable fact that your Dalai Lama has disparaged and abandoned his lineage Gurus. A 'clean' or 'pure' lineage transmission means the Teacher absolutely loves their lineage Gurus and always pay deep respect to them. Through such a pure hearted bond the disciple is able to be a vessel for the blessings of enlightened lineage to flow through them to the audience, and so the audience can connect to lineage in their own mind. The purpose of telling this truth here is to strike some common sense so that people will consider its import and find a qualified teacher. You may not see what I'm saying, but there is a possibility that someone will and so take action to find another Teacher in order to gain realizations.
We value having a qualified Teacher if we genuinely value the attainment of authentic realizations. If we do not value the importance of relying on a qualified Lama, this reflects that we do not value the importance of attaining authentic realizations. So the question then becomes, for what reason would a person continue to rely upon an invalid Teacher that is trying to destroy the very lineage one is trying to realize?
Having considered these indisputable points, if you really are interested in attaining genuine realizations, I am asking you sincerely to consider and possibly share with us what your reason is for maintaining Lhamo Dondrub as your Teacher?
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Okay, everybody. Please stop drinking the Dalai Lama cool-aide.
You guys, if you are told by thousands of people, since childhood, the U.S. President is a Buddha, well maybe you can say so. Because ANYONE,even an insane being, COULD be a Buddha.
However, it is simply not possible for the majority of the Dalai Lama's followers to have examined him as a teacher nor he them as students--- at all. He gives the Kalachakra to the masses.... and along with it COMPLETELY goes against the tantra by dictating everything everyone has to do. Milarepa had incredible devotion for Marpa, but Milarepa had a chance to find out about Marpa and vice versa, and it was more one on one with a lot of retreats. The Dalai Lama is lying to everybody and making them feel like they are special people who get a big empowerment. It is a good wish to have such an empowerement from an enlightened being, but what chance do these "disciples" of his have to really find out that much about him first? In many cases they just show up....
THen he micromanages their lives, putting Dorje Shugden followers in a category of non-virtuous friend, or malevolent friend, because he has declared himself the guru of Buddhism (and these guys are tricked into thinking they have to do everything this dude says). Okay, so maybe he gave a feel good talk. Maybe Deepak Chopra did the same or the Catholic Pope, but are you saying you are ready to offer everything, even all of your logic circuits and reason to everything they say?
Real tantric masters do not disparage people for practicing. If he wants his own students to do a certain practice, okay, but saying oh you can't be friends with those guys over there, because I have decided they are going against me...malevolent...... blah blah.... oh go over there and get them to stop guys... very convenient... done in the crusades and inquisitions throughout time...
Dalai has logical fallacies all the time, at least if you understand much about Buddhism. Please, look up some basic syllogisms in a logic book.... look up the qualifications of a tantric master in a book written by someone other than the guy who is trying to get you to do what he says. He has departed from Buddha, you are following a cult leader, not an enlightened being.
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I find it peculiar that every time I've ever asked students of the DL a question such as this, they always elect to avoid the discussion.
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I find it peculiar that every time I've ever asked students of the DL a question such as this, they always elect to avoid the discussion.
Psylotripitaka,
There's no student of the Dalai Lama here and I am certainly not avoiding and I am not his student. I have been busy with work in order to earn my keep and I am certainly not paid by the Chinese (I wish!). There are just some Shugden practitioners are thinking that perhaps, the Dalai Lama is just manifesting this to push Dorje Shugden out in the world. I am suggesting that we should be fighting the Shugden ban and not trying to bring down the Dalai Lama. Since you were talking about attainments, I don't see how criticising the Dalai Lama helps you to gain attainments?
There is a Bodhisattva vow that says you are not to insult someone who has committed any of the five heinous crimes or defiled his vows of individual liberation, or treat him or her with contempt. If you hold your Bodhisattva vows, then you have broken it. If you have not, then you should prepare to hold it as that will help you gain attainments. That is if the Dalai Lama is just an ordinary practitioner. You see, you and I don't have the wisdom to see this. Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche certainly has and he has said in his writings not to criticize the Dalai Lama.
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Big Uncle,
I don't think people here are not saying that some of them aren't with the Dalai Lama. Logically, for people from Tibet, that could easily be possible that they had commitments both with Shugden lamas and the Dalai Lama, or older western students too. I think we need to understand what the Dalai Lama is doing is not the acts of an enlightened being, so that we can help bring down the ban. We are dealing with a man who used to be a dictator in Tibet, and people are still afraid to speak out, like when the emperor isn't wearing clothes, everyone was afraid to admit it.
Whatever people's opinion's they are certainly entitled to them, but I think we have to take things in context. Regarding the previous Trijang Rinpoche's advice on not criticizing the Dalai Lama, I will share an excerpt from a teaching called "Four Ways of the Wise," by Shamar Rinpoche. Here Rinpoche advises us to rely on meaning rather than words. I think it is very logical to under Trijang Rinpoche's words to advise people not to criticize the Dalai Lama since he wanted them all to be alive the next morning. Also, I don't think it's criticism if we say we don't think the Dalai Lama is a Buddha. We cherish our mother living beings and rely on them for lojong practice, so saying the Dalai Lama could well be a mother living being isn't a disparagement. It's okay, it's compassionate that we notice, so we can think things through, and make prayers for his swift enlightenment.
Here is the bit from Shamarpa's teaching:
http://shamarpa.org/four-ways-of-the-wise/ (http://shamarpa.org/four-ways-of-the-wise/)
2. Depend on the meaning and not on the words
People like to follow fine words. Impressive language can be very convincing. Wording can be skillful to make meaning clear or it can help to make something more beautiful, as in a poem or a song, or wording can be used to impress your audience, to let them know you are educated and adept at prose style and turns of phrase. But the meaning is the most important: it should be the correct meaning.
What is correct meaning in spiritual teaching? First, to be correct, a teaching must give some benefit. Second, it must tell the truth. Once these two criteria are met, then wording is less important. But good wording can make correct teachings easier to read and more interesting, so it is useful.
Yet, if you use good wording but tell lies, not only does your good wording give no value, but it is actually harmful, because you may cause people to fall into harmful beliefs and errors.
Here’s an example. Legend says that once upon a time there was a Brahmin scholar with a very beautiful wife. At an advanced age, this Brahmin got sick and knew that he would soon die. He was a jealous man, and he became terrified that another man would marry his wife after his death. So, being a scholar who was also very determined, he did something quite extreme. He mustered all his strength to write a self-serving book to convince to convince his wife to jump into his funeral pyre. In this book, the Brahmin said that when his body is offered to the god Shiva it will be transformed from a burning body into a “liberated” body. He went on to write that since a Brahmin’s wife is not just a wife, but a goddess taking part in a holy union, that she should join her husband and become liberated as well. The style and language of this book were perfect, since the Brahmin was a master of rhetoric. Indeed, so the legend goes, the book was so convincing that the wife jumped in the fire. And thus was the hateful practice of sati begun in India. It was widespread until outlawed by the British and continues in some places even today.
Wording is a flower, it is an adornment. Meaning is the real body. Good wording without meaning is like precious jewels on a corpse. The power of meaning will come through even if words are not impressive, like a beautiful woman who is unadorned, whose natural beauty shines through. Skillful wording allied with good meaning is like a beautiful woman whose natural allure is enhanced by beautiful jewels.
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Big Uncle,
My meaning really was that in general when such a dialogue is presented, people do not reply with reasonable discussion.
You began this subject heading, so I have taken the opportunity to share some logical perspectives. I have heartfelt love and compassion for Lhamo Dondrub, and so I've laid out the reasons I do not believe his aspect is that of a holy being or valid representative of the 3 Jewels. Surely this is common sense. Teaching words and doing rituals in and of themselves does not qualify us to be a representative of the lineage. Love and respect for the lineage Gurus is the most important criteria.
He has been given a very long time and many opportunities to have dialogue and address the abuse of human and religious rights but has chosen the path of corruption. For this reason, especially due to not only the amount of time that's gone by but especially the significant increase of persecution in the past few years, he has brought himself to the point where his reputation and the validity of his speech must now be brought into question in a very direct way.
Before, he had the opportunity to save face and still be able to benefit many people through Dharma by bringing harmony, but his actions have brought the natural consequence of opposing the Holy Beings. I do not criticize with bad intention, but out of compassion to protect the lineage and to also try and reason with people who are relying on someone that cannot transmit the blessings of lineage to them, as I explained regarding the Panchen Lama clarifying the how not to mistake an introduction to the conventional nature of mind as an introduction to the ultimate nature of mind. He did so to prevent people's path to liberation from being blocked, and so, I too have presented a reasonable argument with legitimate concern for people's path to liberation.
For the crimes he has committed against the lineage in particular, it is entirely logical and appropriate that he lose his status and position as a Teacher. I mean my gosh people, is this fucking rocket science? If he would have pulled this kinda shit during the time of Lord Buddha, I guarantee, I guarantee he would have been first given the opportunity to rectify it, and if his behavior continued, Buddha Shakyamuni, Mahasiddha Padmasambhava, Lord Atisha, Marpa Lotsawa, Jetsun Milarepa, Sakya Pandita, Je Tsongkhapa and so on and so forth would ALL have dismissed him from the monastery, taken his robes, and taken away his position as a public representative of the 3 Jewels.
Yet people or so wrapped up in the reputation of this guy that they can't even think clearly or have any common sense. Ah, the good 'ol Kali Yuga!
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Big Uncle -
and is it not a Bodhisattva downfall to fail to engage in wrathful actions when appropriate? on the other hand, there's no fault, so long as our motivation is compassion, in pointing out others' negativity - or even in disempowering a spiritual dictator who uses their power only to harm others.
we don't know each others' motivation. so assuming that we are all trying to act out of compassion and not self-interest, the only question for us is: what action is most skilful to end the ban, alleviate Shugden practitioners' suffering, and remove the threat to this holy lineage as quickly as possible? calling him a liar, or staying silent?
during Trijang Dorjechang's life, as Blue Upali says, it was not the time to speak out. NOW is the time.
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Looking forward to this...my first post here.
I have been reading the posts in this thread entitled:Do you think the Dalai Lama's ban is an act of a Mahasiddha?
My answer to this question is: No
My reason is because this dalai lama is destroying faith across all buddhists, setting buddhist in disagreement with buddhist - in other words creating division not harmony. A heinous action is a heinous action is a heinous action.
I have loved and laughed at the ferocity of Maitibhadra - he/she may express themselves in strong language but it is a pleasure to read wisdom cutting through the schizophrenic idea that someone causing massive suffering can also be a holy being.
For years I have wondered what is the meaning of "Dorje Shugden and the Dalai Lama spreading Dharma together."
I am sorry to say but to me this is nonsense.
Anybody believing this should keep their belief private as it cannot be understood by ordinary people - it just confuses them.
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Come on, who are we to kid ourselves about knowing the ultimate motivation of the Dalai Lama and "entourage". If we just focus on the conventional, the worldly, we see that he is lying. This needs to be overcome immediately.
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Come on, who are we to kid ourselves about knowing the ultimate motivation of the Dalai Lama and "entourage". If we just focus on the conventional, the worldly, we see that he is lying. This needs to be overcome immediately.
Honestly we don't have to focus on the worldly at all--- it's just not logical that Chenresig would act like this guy.
We can focus on the Buddha, meditate with the Buddha and then we will really understand that the DL is just a confused mother living being who literally needs us to do lots of Vajrasattva and Dorje Shugden prayers for him so he can purify and have more wisdom, because he is really lacking in wisdom.
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Unless we are Enlightened we should just regard all actions from others as Dharma practices. If someone hit you we should run or defend ourselves. If we think someone lie, even if it is the Dalai Lama, we can respectfully ask him not to lie; but the emphasis is "with respect". Since the Dalai Lama is so higher regarded, we should think of the feelings of his followers and those who respect him. Tell him not to lie but with respect.
Notice that that is what the protester are doing. Protest in peace and respect. But be factual. A lie is a lie.
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I think that it is actually possible for the Dorje Shugden ban to be some form of religious play. I noticed that due to the Dorje Shugden ban many people around the world have noticed Dorje Shugden. Many people have united to form communities to protest against the great Dorje Shugden ban.
Before the Shugden ban, Dorje Shugden was hardly known, but as a result of the ban more people know about Dorje Shugden.
I'd say that the ban has two sides, a good side and a bad side. The good thing(or partially good thing) about the ban is that Dorje Shugden is now famous due to many people protesting against the Ban. The bad thing about the ban is that it has caused suffering to many living in India, families were broken simply because some practiced Dorje Shugden and some did not. Dorje Shugden practitioners face other problems like not being able to vote and not allowed to go to public facilities.
Whatever it is i really hope that once the ban is over everything can go back to normal. _/\_
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@prodorjeshugden - many have also called this ban the Illusory play, a play of the divine.
Because of the ban, the citizens of the most economically powerful and potent nation in the world now being China all 1.3-1.4 billion of them can practice Dorje Shugden and get all the benefits of the practice.
Hence it is a negative action to ban Dorje Shugden, but doing so, there is a huge amount of benefit for the Chinese and the rest of the world, many more people will have Dorje Shudgen's mantra on their lips. And Dorje Shugden always leads towards Tsongkhapa's teachings no doubt about that.
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This is an old but interesting post. As a Dorje Shugden practitioner, at first, I could not comprehend about the reason for the ban. I have always believed and respected the Dalai Lama. Therefore, when I realized that His Holiness spoke against the Dorje Shugden practice, my heart was shattered. However, I do believe in what our lineage master, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche. In his writing Music Delighting Oceans of Protector, written long before the ban, the Trijang Rinpoche has mentioned that in the future, the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden would manifest conflict but in actuality, they are working together for the Dharma.
I think we should try as best as we can, not to lose faith in both the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden.