dorjeshugden.com
General Buddhism => General Buddhism => Topic started by: icy on March 08, 2014, 06:56:22 AM
-
Scott Bixby
WORLD NEWS 03.07.14
Contradicting previous statements about gays, the foremost Tibetan Buddhist’s peace-and-love message now includes same-sex couples.
It’s not every day that a 78-year-old man comes out in favor of same-sex marriage, particularly when that septuagenarian happens to be His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama, spiritual leader of Tibetan Buddhism and winner of the Nobel Peace Prize. In an interview on Ora.tv’s Larry King Now show, the exiled spiritual leader offered a matter-of-fact endorsement of gay marriage: “If two people—a couple—really feel that way is more practical, more sort of satisfaction, both sides fully agree, then OK.” ??The Dalai Lama clarified that the religious should still follow their faith’s rules on sexual behavior, “but then for a non-believer, that is up to them. So there are different forms of sex—so long as it is safe, OK, and if they fully agree, OK.”
The Dalai Lama, considered in Tibetan Buddhism to be the 14th incarnation of Avalokite?vara, a being who embodies the compassion of all Buddhas, had previously urged for “respect, compassion, and full human rights for all,” including gays.
But many of his previous statements regarding homosexuality would seem more at home at the Conservative Political Action Conference. At a meeting with gay and lesbian Buddhists in 1997, His Holiness said that “Even with your wife, using one’s mouth or the other hole is sexual misconduct. Using one’s hand, that is sexual misconduct.” He has also described relations between people of the same sex as “what we Buddhists call bad sexual conduct. Sexual organs were created for reproduction between the male element and the female element—and everything that deviates from that is not acceptable from a Buddhist point of view.”
Much of the Dalai Lama’s objection to homosexual behavior stems from the Buddhist belief that sensual enjoyment, and desire in general, are hindrances to enlightenment. Lay Buddhists—that is, Buddhists who are not monks and have not sworn themselves to celibacy—are expected not to engage in “sexual misconduct.” However, some modern scholars, pointing out that homosexuality is not explicitly mentioned in any of the Buddha’s sayings, have pushed to have same-sex sexual behavior evaluated on the Universality Principle, or the Golden Rule: “How would I like it if someone did this to me?”
The Dalai Lama’s statements come on the heels of another religious leader’s mellowing on the issue of same-sex relationships: On Wednesday, Pope Francis called on the Catholic Church and its leaders to explore civil unions and how they provide for the economic security and well-being of same-sex couples.
-
Due to the ambivalent language about homosexuality in Buddhist teachings, there has been no official stance put forth regarding the issue of marriage between members of the same gender.
There is no objection of the Buddha found in the Tipitaka. Buddha was neither supportive nor against marriages between members of the same gender. Also, from the Tipitaka, it is clear that the Buddha acknowledged the difference between hermaphrodites and homosexual practitioners. Hermaphrodites and eunuchs are not allowed to be ordained, but there is no sanction against homosexuality. As for the lay homosexual people, Buddha gave no rule or advice as to whether they should be allowed to marry or not.
Buddha posted himself simply as the one who shows the way. He did not insist that he had any right to enforce on others what they should do. With this principle, the original teachings of the Buddha do not cover social ceremonies or rituals. Weddings and marriages of all kinds are regarded as mundane and have no place in Buddhism.
On October 11, 1995, some religious leaders gave testimony to the Commission on Sexual Orientation and the Law in support of same-gender marriages. Robert Aitken, co-founder and teacher of the Honolulu Diamond Sangha, a Zen Buddhist society established in 1959, with centers in Manoa and Palolo, gave written testimony on the subject of same-sex marriage. Aitken explains that by applying the Four Noble Abodes (loving kindness, compassion, joy in the attainment of others, and equanimity) to the issue of same-sex marriage, he finds compassion for and with the gay or lesbian couple who wish to confirm their love in a legal marriage. Aitken cites a precept about sex which Zen Buddhists inherit from earlier classical Buddhists teachings.
It is one of the sixteen precepts accepted by all Zen Buddhist monks, nuns and seriously committed lay people. He understands this to mean that self-centered sexual conduct is inappropriate, and he vows to avoid it. He believes that self-centered sex is exploitive sex, non-consensual sex, sex that harms others. It is unwholesome and destructive in a heterosexual as well as in a homosexual context. He goes on to explain that The Legislative Reference Bureau compiled a formidable list of rights that are extended to married couples in Hawai'i, but which are denied to couples who are gay and lesbian.
He argues that gay and lesbian unions would be "settled even more" if they were acknowledged with basic married rights. Aitken says, "A long-standing injustice would be corrected, and the entire gay and lesbian community would feel more accepted. This would stabilize a significant segment of our society, and we would all of us be better able to acknowledge our diversity. I urge you to advise the Legislature and the people of Hawai'i that legalizing gay and lesbian marriages will be humane and in keeping with perenniel principles of decency and mutual encouragement.
-
I see a change of mind again by His Holiness. First he was against same sex relationships, labelling it as sexual misconduct and being unacceptable from a Buddhist point of view. And now, it is okay if the people involved are okay. Just like how His Holiness was okay with the practise of Dorje Shugden and then later, against it. These are big 'issues' to change your mind about.
As for me, gay or straight, I think it is alright because at the end of the day, love is love. Being gay doesn't mean that you are less of a person than one who is straight. As long as respect, kindness, honesty etc. can be shown to one another, then I think it's fine.
-
Hi Fellow Dharma Frds, it has been long since I have spoken in this website as I find the Dharma presented seems to be a little deviated or off the course. I Have consulted the matter on Homosexual, I have consulted my Guru and He replied that sexual relationship between same sex is considered sexual miscounduct as abnormal sexual intercourse like anal or mouth is involved. At that point of time, I felt slightly awoke from the simple answer provided.
Please kindly consult your OWN GURUs for answers when in doubts, look for renowned & reliable lamas like GKG, Gangchan Lama, Gonsar Rinpoche etc etc. and DO NOT depend on layman answers which are most of the time INCORRECT which suits their interest and deviate from the truth presented by Buddha's teachings! From our lineage masters, did we hear anyone are manifested as gay or lesbian got enlightened? Can anyone name any such lineage masters manifest as homosexual to convince me that homosexual sex is okay? I am not saying that they cannot practice dharma, as we have to shred the ego of self and perceive the same emptiness as the enlightened beings. Until true perceiving of emptiness is attained, will the inherent negative characteristic trait will be corrected. I sympathized these people as these characteristic trait is as a result of negative karma manifested.
There are times that I have been rebuked by many that I am wrong. Does it mean that we should rely on answers by MANY people or rely on the answers from FEW enlightened ones? As for HHDL, sometimes he manifested by giving some unreliable answers.
Please DUN cloud young and weak with our mundane and unenlightened thinking, but always preach and practice whatever our Gurus who had passed down to us.
Another example that someone debated that they can tattoo DS on their body as a respect or reminder. But I remembered my Guru told me after getting empowerment, a yogist's body has become as same as Vairocana Buddha body and yogist must treat his/her body with respect. No piercing ears, no tatoo, no cosmetic surgery etc is to cause bodily harm or else sidhhis or good fruits will not be attained. There are many here are upset with my explanation and my kind intention to help. They debated their way to align to their interest until some senior practitioners to speak up.
I hope that we will preserve the Buddha's authentic teachings and stick to traditions and stick to our own Guru's advice and not leaded by the blind. If many are not listening with filtering and wisdom. I am not going to share any comments any more in future.
Thank you
-
It is sad and hurt to see Buddha's teachings especially the essence of Buddha teachings presented by Je Tsong Kha Pa are tainted.
-
I have heard a Lama gave a teaching on related matters:
1) Regardless marriage or relationship, the problem is not about the other person is same sex or different sex. Instead, the problem is attachment to the relationship or the person. If you are very attached to the other person, doesn't matter if it is different or same sex, it will affect our spiritual advancement. From this, I can see that both Lamas do not object same sex marriage, because the problem is not about same sex or not, but the attachment itself.
2) It was said in the tantra that when male and female genitalia in contact, they create a good energy flow. But when genitalia are in the other places, the energy does not flow and eventually, it may cause anger in long run (it is not guarantee it will cause anger though). So it is advised not engage in not "normal" sex.
-
Hi Fellow Dharma Frds, it has been long since I have spoken in this website as I find the Dharma presented seems to be a little deviated or off the course. I Have consulted the matter on Homosexual, I have consulted my Guru and He replied that sexual relationship between same sex is considered sexual miscounduct as abnormal sexual intercourse like anal or mouth is involved. At that point of time, I felt slightly awoke from the simple answer provided.
Please kindly consult your OWN GURUs for answers when in doubts, look for renowned & reliable lamas like GKG, Gangchan Lama, Gonsar Rinpoche etc etc. and DO NOT depend on layman answers which are most of the time INCORRECT which suits their interest and deviate from the truth presented by Buddha's teachings! From our lineage masters, did we hear anyone are manifested as gay or lesbian got enlightened? Can anyone name any such lineage masters manifest as homosexual to convince me that homosexual sex is okay? I am not saying that they cannot practice dharma, as we have to shred the ego of self and perceive the same emptiness as the enlightened beings. Until true perceiving of emptiness is attained, will the inherent negative characteristic trait will be corrected. I sympathized these people as these characteristic trait is as a result of negative karma manifested.
There are times that I have been rebuked by many that I am wrong. Does it mean that we should rely on answers by MANY people or rely on the answers from FEW enlightened ones? As for HHDL, sometimes he manifested by giving some unreliable answers.
Please DUN cloud young and weak with our mundane and unenlightened thinking, but always preach and practice whatever our Gurus who had passed down to us.
Another example that someone debated that they can tattoo DS on their body as a respect or reminder. But I remembered my Guru told me after getting empowerment, a yogist's body has become as same as Vairocana Buddha body and yogist must treat his/her body with respect. No piercing ears, no tatoo, no cosmetic surgery etc is to cause bodily harm or else sidhhis or good fruits will not be attained. There are many here are upset with my explanation and my kind intention to help. They debated their way to align to their interest until some senior practitioners to speak up.
I hope that we will preserve the Buddha's authentic teachings and stick to traditions and stick to our own Guru's advice and not leaded by the blind. If many are not listening with filtering and wisdom. I am not going to share any comments any more in future.
Thank you
Dear lightning,
Thank you for sharing and please tell us why do you think that the "Dharma presented (here) seems to be a little deviated or off the course"? That is a very serious allegation and should be addressed if found to be valid.
Also, please tell us who is your teacher that says homosexual sex is misconduct. Please state your source when making such statements. An explanation from him as to why it is misconduct would be excellent as well and preferably not from your own interpretation of this matter.
Thank you. For now, I would stick to the Dalai Lama's open acceptance of homosexuality.
-
For me, the issue here is not about the same sex marriage. Its about HHDL. One day, He says ok, then another day, He changes His mind and people just follow without checking. Yes, follow your Guru all the way but we must also check and not have blind faith.
So does this mean, tomorrow, He will say His peace-and-loving message 'Its ok for you to practice Dorje Shugden. No problem.' :o
-
Hi Fellow Dharma Frds, it has been long since I have spoken in this website as I find the Dharma presented seems to be a little deviated or off the course. I Have consulted the matter on Homosexual, I have consulted my Guru and He replied that sexual relationship between same sex is considered sexual miscounduct as abnormal sexual intercourse like anal or mouth is involved. At that point of time, I felt slightly awoke from the simple answer provided.
Please kindly consult your OWN GURUs for answers when in doubts, look for renowned & reliable lamas like GKG, Gangchan Lama, Gonsar Rinpoche etc etc. and DO NOT depend on layman answers which are most of the time INCORRECT which suits their interest and deviate from the truth presented by Buddha's teachings! From our lineage masters, did we hear anyone are manifested as gay or lesbian got enlightened? Can anyone name any such lineage masters manifest as homosexual to convince me that homosexual sex is okay? I am not saying that they cannot practice dharma, as we have to shred the ego of self and perceive the same emptiness as the enlightened beings. Until true perceiving of emptiness is attained, will the inherent negative characteristic trait will be corrected. I sympathized these people as these characteristic trait is as a result of negative karma manifested.
There are times that I have been rebuked by many that I am wrong. Does it mean that we should rely on answers by MANY people or rely on the answers from FEW enlightened ones? As for HHDL, sometimes he manifested by giving some unreliable answers.
Please DUN cloud young and weak with our mundane and unenlightened thinking, but always preach and practice whatever our Gurus who had passed down to us.
Another example that someone debated that they can tattoo DS on their body as a respect or reminder. But I remembered my Guru told me after getting empowerment, a yogist's body has become as same as Vairocana Buddha body and yogist must treat his/her body with respect. No piercing ears, no tatoo, no cosmetic surgery etc is to cause bodily harm or else sidhhis or good fruits will not be attained. There are many here are upset with my explanation and my kind intention to help. They debated their way to align to their interest until some senior practitioners to speak up.
I hope that we will preserve the Buddha's authentic teachings and stick to traditions and stick to our own Guru's advice and not leaded by the blind. If many are not listening with filtering and wisdom. I am not going to share any comments any more in future.
Thank you
Dear lightning,
Thank you for sharing and please tell us why do you think that the "Dharma presented (here) seems to be a little deviated or off the course"? That is a very serious allegation and should be addressed if found to be valid.
Also, please tell us who is your teacher that says homosexual sex is misconduct. Please state your source when making such statements. An explanation from him as to why it is misconduct would be excellent as well and preferably not from your own interpretation of this matter.
Thank you. For now, I would stick to the Dalai Lama's open acceptance of homosexuality.
Dear Big Uncle,
I have consulted with my own Guru and it is NOT a serious allegation as My Guru have answered to me with a slight frown on his face. Please consult with your Guru or someone of Dharma King level for for valid answers.
-
Dear Big Uncle,
There is five primary vows and sexual misconduct is one of them and if certain Guru required that He/ She must fulfilled all the 5 primary vows in taking highest yoga empowerment. Do you think homosexual can avoid taking it? and He/she has sexual relationship and he/she will transgress the vow taken. Does this make some sense? My Guru is amongst the picture as loaded by the admin, if you want some assurance of my answers. I am not discriminating against anyone but just pointing out true facts. We must spread true Dharma as pass down by our own Guru's instructions NOT our own thinking and with biased agenda. Please provide me of answers from your Guru or someone like Venerable GKG
-
Dear Big Uncle,
If you want to stick to Dalai Lama's answer is fine with me, but sometimes I find his answers can be as flippant like flip flop pan cake. As an admin, please get answers from valid source before sticking to some advice from HHDL, if not your answers may end up misleading others. I prefer to stick to my own root Guru's advice and I advice likewise for the rest of us
-
Dear Big Uncle,
I truly accept homosexual as a human being, and if they want to get married, I rather take a neutral stand of neither encouraging (For reasons of not rejoicing of any bad karma) nor discouraging. But when comes to being Vajrayana practitioner, especially those who are taking highest yoga tantra, it is total different story. There is to be a line drawn between what one can do before and after empowerment especially when one is a Highest Yoga Tantra practitioner. If one is misleading these class of people, imagine the amount of heavy karma accrued in doing so???
-
I have heard a Lama gave a teaching on related matters:
1) Regardless marriage or relationship, the problem is not about the other person is same sex or different sex. Instead, the problem is attachment to the relationship or the person. If you are very attached to the other person, doesn't matter if it is different or same sex, it will affect our spiritual advancement. From this, I can see that both Lamas do not object same sex marriage, because the problem is not about same sex or not, but the attachment itself.
2) It was said in the tantra that when male and female genitalia in contact, they create a good energy flow. But when genitalia are in the other places, the energy does not flow and eventually, it may cause anger in long run (it is not guarantee it will cause anger though). So it is advised not engage in not "normal" sex.
Thanks for speaking out Kris, I have been seeing too much "encouraging signs" of same sex relationship found here. I felt uneasy and rather speak out from my mind with intention of correcting.
-
In term of spiritual growth, what is the significant of 'marriage'? None.
Unlike the religions based on "ultra-moralistic judeo-christian principles" (to borrow from Wisdom Being), for common Buddhists, marriage will most probably increase one's attachment and has no direct contribution to one's spiritual growth.
In Buddha's teachings, the most important factors for one to achieve ultimate happiness, i.e. to be freed of suffering and cyclic existence, is depending on one's mind and actions.
Based on the Law of Karma (the Law of Cause and Effect), we are all responsible for our own actions, in term of morality and other aspects. Thus the morality aspect in Buddhists' principle does not require 'approval' or 'permission' from Divine or 'God' via a spiritual 'office' or 'police' to stay together as a couple.
Married or not, as long as one is loyal, honest and not hurting one's partner by cheating on her/him, one is not violating any rules or vows.
So whether HHDL 'OK' or 'NOT OK' with gay marriage, it will not increase one's merits or blessings and not contributing anything for one to achieve the ultimate goal of enlightenment.
This 'approval' is more for society's acceptance and for one's worldly concerns. Nothing more, actually....
-
In term of spiritual growth, what is the significant of 'marriage'? None.
Unlike the religions based on "ultra-moralistic judeo-christian principles" (to borrow from Wisdom Being), for common Buddhists, marriage will most probably increase one's attachment and has no direct contribution to one's spiritual growth.
In Buddha's teachings, the most important factors for one to achieve ultimate happiness, i.e. to be freed of suffering and cyclic existence, is depending on one's mind and actions.
Based on the Law of Karma (the Law of Cause and Effect), we are all responsible for our own actions, in term of morality and other aspects. Thus the morality aspect in Buddhists' principle does not require 'approval' or 'permission' from Divine or 'God' via a spiritual 'office' or 'police' to stay together as a couple.
Married or not, as long as one is loyal, honest and not hurting one's partner by cheating on her/him, one is not violating any rules or vows.
So whether HHDL 'OK' or 'NOT OK' with gay marriage, it will not increase one's merits or blessings and not contributing anything for one to achieve the ultimate goal of enlightenment.
This 'approval' is more for society's acceptance and for one's worldly concerns. Nothing more, actually....
Early Buddhism seems to be silent on homosexuality. However the Buddha mentioned that there are 3 gender ie male, female, the in-betweens. In the in-between category there are the male-and-male, female-female and the hermaphrodites. The Sangha are prohibited to have sex at all.
The Buddha's proscriptions against certain types of people joining the monastic sangha (ordained community) are often understood to reflect his concern with upholding the public image of the sangha as virtuous; in some cases, this is explicitly stated. Social acceptability was vital for the sangha, as it could not survive without material support from lay society.
However, I feel the Dalai Lama's acceptance of same sex marriage are more in line with the modern acceptance of it by many especially in the West.
I agree with DS Star's position on marriage in Buddhism as just another attachment to a person, sex and the household/family which in Buddhism are something we should let go of. But since, most lay Buddhist chose to marry, marriage is the normality and in this age , same sex marriage are also becoming more common.
-
What i find completely contradictory about the Dalai Lama's current stance on homosexuality is that it is sexual misconduct for Buddhists but not for non-believers? How can it be ok for non-buddhists but NOT ok for Buddhists?! Seems like a weak rule to me! All other Buddhist tenets like not stealing, not killing etc are universal values - they incur bad karma whether you are buddhist or not. But if you are a non-Buddhist homosexual it is okay??
Is the Dalai Lama simply trying to curry favour with more sexually open western society? In case Boy George decides not to be Buddhist anymore?
Dalai Lama - please don't be so contradictory. Otherwise people might think your stance on Dorje Shugden is also wishy washy!
-
I have heard a Lama gave a teaching on related matters:
1) Regardless marriage or relationship, the problem is not about the other person is same sex or different sex. Instead, the problem is attachment to the relationship or the person. If you are very attached to the other person, doesn't matter if it is different or same sex, it will affect our spiritual advancement. From this, I can see that both Lamas do not object same sex marriage, because the problem is not about same sex or not, but the attachment itself.
2) It was said in the tantra that when male and female genitalia in contact, they create a good energy flow. But when genitalia are in the other places, the energy does not flow and eventually, it may cause anger in long run (it is not guarantee it will cause anger though). So it is advised not engage in not "normal" sex.
I have heard of point 2. As my guru says, it's not a sin per se but that it has a possibility of disturbing our energies. So it's up to us to decide. Just like drinking alcohol. The drink is not a sin per se, but because it can influence our mind due to the chemicals. The actions we carry out under the influence of alcohol may create more negative karma for us.
Any type of desire is an attachment which further enhances our self cherishing mind or ego. Whether it's desire for food, our outer appearance, and so on, they are various forms of desire. As the Dalai Lama stated, as long as there is no harm to the person involved in the sexual activity, it is still ok.
I believe that eating meat is worse than having different sexual preferences because animals are killed to nourish our bodies and in most cases, to fulfill our taste buds. Most of us can survive without meat. If we want world peace and happiness, why do we create the karma to be further away from peace and happiness by supporting the killing of animals? No beings should suffer.
-
Let me summarize what I see so far:
So far I have only seen one reply on what is from Lama's view on homosexual which is quite align to what my Guru have said. I hope to see more Dharma Frds giving more inputs from their Lama or Gurus.
As for other Buddhism sects, I personally felt that the authentic underlying meaning behind has lose touch on the Buddha's teaching. Tibetan Buddhism system has a more well preserved teaching than other Buddhist sects because of the oral transmission are almost unbroken generations after generations especially Gelugpa Sect. Because of these lineage oral transmissions, attainment of Supra-mundane achievement is possible. I do not agree on certain Buddhist masters holding wedding for gays or lesbians and fighting for their rights, as it could be possible that sexual misconduct between homosexual has more negative karma than those between man and women.
I do not believe that we should bend the teachings set by Buddha 2500 years ago just to please the society to gain more financial support and it will make the Dharma more degenerate. On one story, Buddha scolded one monk that the latter see Buddha equal to not seeing Himself, because he violated vows of drinking unfiltered water with germs, while the other died of thirst maintaining his vow on journey to pay visit to Buddha.
I felt that Prominent figure like Dalai Lama made things worse by declaring he is alright with Gays/ Lesbians marriage, which made people think that it is okay to engage same sex sexual activities. Especially the lay Buddhists should draw a line on NOT committing sexual misconduct after they have taken that particular vow. Such prominent figures like HHDL will carry weight on their words which will influence more people at larger scale and with greater impact. BTW,HHDL display great inconsistency and what kind of impression he gave to the public on accepting a infamous Japanese cult leader as student for his empowerment session?
I felt that Wisdom being is right about sexual misconduct applies to Non Buddhists as well, whether they like it or not because seeds of karma is planted dependent on choices made.
As for meat eating, during Buddha's time, He had preached pure meat under 5 conditions to be taken to allow to be taken to avoid negative karma. If a person is pre-taking meat under this 5 conditions, how could we say that it is worse than having sexual misconduct? As long as we are not the direct cause to kill the animal for consumption and bought it under the 5 conditions and are we saying that Buddha is wrong that meat eating even if it is eaten under 5 conditions???
Especially in HYT, meat is transformed into 5 meat and 5 nectar as same as nature of 5 directional Buddhas and Consorts, taking it become merit instead of accumulating negative karma. Even there is Buddhism mantra for meat consumption for both Mahayana and Theravada tradition to bless the meat before consumption. With these, it give more assurance to eat meat.
Finally, I hope to see more people give answers from their Guru or Lamas.
-
I think Buddhism is not technically against anything per say. It does not advocate sex, relationship or marriage heterosexual or homosexual simply because Buddha taught that desires are obstacles. Buddhism is the most accepting religion in my opinion when it comes to the issue of one sexuality because the mind is genderless. Going with the belief of reincarnation most of us have been either male or female or gay probably countless lifetimes. Homosexuality in itself is nothing to Buddhism, that's what I think. But the lifestyle is not encouraged due to the many downfalls and obstacles it can create in ones life and pain to those around us. I have nothing against homosexuality but I don't necessarily advocate gay marriage but then again I generally don't believe in marriage full stop.
-
Dear Big Uncle,
If you want to stick to Dalai Lama's answer is fine with me, but sometimes I find his answers can be as flippant like flip flop pan cake. As an admin, please get answers from valid source before sticking to some advice from HHDL, if not your answers may end up misleading others. I prefer to stick to my own root Guru's advice and I advice likewise for the rest of us
Dear lightning,
I have my own advice from my lama and its basically the same as the Dalai Lama's stance on homosexuality. What you are talking about is Tantric consort practice and that is done with the union of male and female genitalia. In the Gelug, that is NOT done physically but visualized and this is perfectly exemplified by Lama Tsongkhapa, who achieved that union in the bardo without the aid of any consort. It is NOT recommended to engage in consort practice unless you yourself are highly attained and have specific instructions from a qualified Guru.
When it comes to heterosexuality and homosexuality, there is no difference. Both have their own qualities that leads one deeper into Samsara. My Guru never said it is NOT sexual misconduct to engage in homosexual relationship. That is a serious allegation from your Guru as it makes heterosexual relationship valid and I don't see why heterosexual relationships are valid in the Dharma from this viewpoint. You are saying that homosexuals have to either abandon their sexual urges/relationships when taking on taking certain vows or not get deeper into Dharma. On the other hand, heterosexual partners need not do abandon their sexual urges/relationships. Why? Please explain this inequality or seek an explanation. Your line of thought encourages discrimination.
-
Especially in HYT, meat is transformed into 5 meat and 5 nectar as same as nature of 5 directional Buddhas and Consorts, taking it become merit instead of accumulating negative karma. Even there is Buddhism mantra for meat consumption for both Mahayana and Theravada tradition to bless the meat before consumption. With these, it give more assurance to eat meat.
Finally, I hope to see more people give answers from their Guru or Lamas.
I am sorry, I do not agree with this and this what I was explained...
In HYT, meat is partaken during Tsog for its symbolism in relations to Tantra. It is not an excuse to say meat-eating is permitted. The mantras are meant to bless the meat/animal but that does not mean you have not committed negative karma when consuming the meat. In consuming meat, you have become part of the cause that the animal died. Karma is blind to all our Dharmic reasonings.
-
Dear Big Uncle,
If you want to stick to Dalai Lama's answer is fine with me, but sometimes I find his answers can be as flippant like flip flop pan cake. As an admin, please get answers from valid source before sticking to some advice from HHDL, if not your answers may end up misleading others. I prefer to stick to my own root Guru's advice and I advice likewise for the rest of us
Dear lightning,
I have my own advice from my lama and its basically the same as the Dalai Lama's stance on homosexuality. What you are talking about is Tantric consort practice and that is done with the union of male and female genitalia. In the Gelug, that is NOT done physically but visualized and this is perfectly exemplified by Lama Tsongkhapa, who achieved that union in the bardo without the aid of any consort. It is NOT recommended to engage in consort practice unless you yourself are highly attained and have specific instructions from a qualified Guru.
When it comes to heterosexuality and homosexuality, there is no difference. Both have their own qualities that leads one deeper into Samsara. My Guru never said it is NOT sexual misconduct to engage in homosexual relationship. That is a serious allegation from your Guru as it makes heterosexual relationship valid and I don't see why heterosexual relationships are valid in the Dharma from this viewpoint. You are saying that homosexuals have to either abandon their sexual urges/relationships when taking on taking certain vows or not get deeper into Dharma. On the other hand, heterosexual partners need not do abandon their sexual urges/relationships. Why? Please explain this inequality or seek an explanation. Your line of thought encourages discrimination.
Dear Big Uncle,
Thanks for finding out from your Guru and providing answers from your side. The purpose of this debate is to clarify the issues and deliver the correct message to readers NOT to discriminate anyone. It is a standard procedure for a Guru to explain on 5 primary precepts during empowerment session which include No Killing, No Stealing, No lying, No sexual misconduct and No Alcohol drinking. As for sexual misconduct, I am very sure that most of the lamas will mentioned that anal sex, oral sex are forbidden and are considered as sexual misconduct. Homosexual activities of course consist of anal and oral sex. Hence, could you kindly verify with your Guru on why anal sex and oral sex is NOT consider sexual misconduct?
Referring to one of the encounter with HHDL: http://shambhalasun.com/sunspace/?p=9070 (http://shambhalasun.com/sunspace/?p=9070)
Quote:" ...Relying on a detailed text from the fifteenth-century Tibetan scholar Tsongkhapa, His Holiness explained what the work has to say about “sexual misconduct”—the type of sex that, as one of the ten nonvirtues, is considered a moral evil. Among other things, Tsongkhapa’s formulation prohibits sex between men, solitary masturbation, oral or anal intercourse, and even sex during daylight. On the other hand, it does not prohibit sex between women, or men employing the services of prostitutes, and it permits heterosexual men up to five orgasms per night. Lest it be thought that this delineation of the boundaries between permissible and illicit sex is idiosyncratic to Tsongkhapa, I should point out that similar formulations are found in important Tibetan texts written before and after him, including works by Gampopa and Dza Patrul. More important, every element in Tsongkhapa’s formulation has a basis in the Indian Buddhist sources.
Having explained Tsongkhapa’s text, His Holiness went on to speak about “the possibility of understanding these precepts in the context of time, culture, and society… If homosexuality is part of accepted norms [today], it is possible that it may be acceptable … However, no single person or teacher can redefine precepts. I do not have the authority to redefine these precepts since no one can make a unilateral decision or issue a decree…"
As mentioned even in Je Tsong Kha Pa work, sexual misconduct is further clarified and HHDL also admit that He cannot redefined precepts and He has no authority to do so, He is seemingly inconsistent with his words in acceptance and was caught flippant in his stand. I Do Not agree that rules should be bend to suit the society, but rather the devotees and disciples should follow the Dharma set by the Enlightened ones for their own benefits.
Lastly, you mentioned that My Guru is making allegation? How do we know that you whether you are providing correct answers on homosexual sex is not sexual misconduct? If you wish to know my Guru's name or doubt his qualification, you could PM me for it
It is late now for my time and I will come back on the meat consuming versus vegetarian
-
A recent interview on Larry King which clearly illustrates HH The Dalai Lama's view... simple. profound yet keeping to the very principles of Buddhism!
Love it!
http://youtu.be/pJVvVSr8E2M (http://youtu.be/pJVvVSr8E2M)
-
Dear Big Uncle,
If you want to stick to Dalai Lama's answer is fine with me, but sometimes I find his answers can be as flippant like flip flop pan cake. As an admin, please get answers from valid source before sticking to some advice from HHDL, if not your answers may end up misleading others. I prefer to stick to my own root Guru's advice and I advice likewise for the rest of us
Dear lightning,
I have my own advice from my lama and its basically the same as the Dalai Lama's stance on homosexuality. What you are talking about is Tantric consort practice and that is done with the union of male and female genitalia. In the Gelug, that is NOT done physically but visualized and this is perfectly exemplified by Lama Tsongkhapa, who achieved that union in the bardo without the aid of any consort. It is NOT recommended to engage in consort practice unless you yourself are highly attained and have specific instructions from a qualified Guru.
When it comes to heterosexuality and homosexuality, there is no difference. Both have their own qualities that leads one deeper into Samsara. My Guru never said it is NOT sexual misconduct to engage in homosexual relationship. That is a serious allegation from your Guru as it makes heterosexual relationship valid and I don't see why heterosexual relationships are valid in the Dharma from this viewpoint. You are saying that homosexuals have to either abandon their sexual urges/relationships when taking on taking certain vows or not get deeper into Dharma. On the other hand, heterosexual partners need not do abandon their sexual urges/relationships. Why? Please explain this inequality or seek an explanation. Your line of thought encourages discrimination.
Dear Big Uncle,
Thanks for finding out from your Guru and providing answers from your side. The purpose of this debate is to clarify the issues and deliver the correct message to readers NOT to discriminate anyone. It is a standard procedure for a Guru to explain on 5 primary precepts during empowerment session which include No Killing, No Stealing, No lying, No sexual misconduct and No Alcohol drinking. As for sexual misconduct, I am very sure that most of the lamas will mentioned that anal sex, oral sex are forbidden and are considered as sexual misconduct. Homosexual activities of course consist of anal and oral sex. Hence, could you kindly verify with your Guru on why anal sex and oral sex is NOT consider sexual misconduct?
Referring to one of the encounter with HHDL: [url]http://shambhalasun.com/sunspace/?p=9070[/url] ([url]http://shambhalasun.com/sunspace/?p=9070[/url])
Quote:" ...Relying on a detailed text from the fifteenth-century Tibetan scholar Tsongkhapa, His Holiness explained what the work has to say about “sexual misconduct”—the type of sex that, as one of the ten nonvirtues, is considered a moral evil. Among other things, Tsongkhapa’s formulation prohibits sex between men, solitary masturbation, oral or anal intercourse, and even sex during daylight. On the other hand, it does not prohibit sex between women, or men employing the services of prostitutes, and it permits heterosexual men up to five orgasms per night. Lest it be thought that this delineation of the boundaries between permissible and illicit sex is idiosyncratic to Tsongkhapa, I should point out that similar formulations are found in important Tibetan texts written before and after him, including works by Gampopa and Dza Patrul. More important, every element in Tsongkhapa’s formulation has a basis in the Indian Buddhist sources.
Having explained Tsongkhapa’s text, His Holiness went on to speak about “the possibility of understanding these precepts in the context of time, culture, and society… If homosexuality is part of accepted norms [today], it is possible that it may be acceptable … However, no single person or teacher can redefine precepts. I do not have the authority to redefine these precepts since no one can make a unilateral decision or issue a decree…"
As mentioned even in Je Tsong Kha Pa work, sexual misconduct is further clarified and HHDL also admit that He cannot redefined precepts and He has no authority to do so, He is seemingly inconsistent with his words in acceptance and was caught flippant in his stand. I Do Not agree that rules should be bend to suit the society, but rather the devotees and disciples should follow the Dharma set by the Enlightened ones for their own benefits.
Lastly, you mentioned that My Guru is making allegation? How do we know that you whether you are providing correct answers on homosexual sex is not sexual misconduct? If you wish to know my Guru's name or doubt his qualification, you could PM me for it
It is late now for my time and I will come back on the meat consuming versus vegetarian
Thank you for your wonderful quote. Since you quote Jamgon Je Tsongkhapa, I cannot refute that. However, I do feel in this case that the Dalai Lama is not being flippant but he is being skilful with his audience. Presenting homosexuality as sexual misconduct to modern people just because it was mentioned in ancient scriptures is not skilful and runs the danger of turning people away from the Dharma.
I believe my lama has taken this stance because at our level of practice, sexuality is not the major hindrance to practice but our general attachment to sexuality. My lama is not making an allegation but expanding on his skilful understanding of his students mind. What's important is the actual transformation of the mind instead of harping on minor issues of the general issues of sexual misconduct. Some lamas promote protector practices like Dorje Shugden to everyone but other lamas prefer the traditional approach of scriptural studies and developing a relationship with the yidam and do not ever encourage any protector practice. I don't think we can be so quick to judge the lama on their manner of approach. Don't you think?
PS - Looking forward to your reply on meat eating...
-
A recent interview on Larry King which clearly illustrates HH The Dalai Lama's view... simple. profound yet keeping to the very principles of Buddhism!
Love it!
[url]http://youtu.be/pJVvVSr8E2M[/url] ([url]http://youtu.be/pJVvVSr8E2M[/url])
Yes that is right. Why complicated the matter?
It is none of our business who wants to marry who as long as there is no violent.
Rape is rape, it is an violent act, both on same gender or not... it is sexual-misconduct.
Marriage is marriage, same gender or not, it will lead to attachment... thus harder to practice renunciation for non-attained people.
Period.
-
for me, why not? It doesn't mean that a couple who fell in love with each other have to be apart because it is against their racial custom. It is acceptable as long as they are very sure what they are doing.
-
Actually, in hindsight, I would have to dispute what was even said by Lama Tsongkhapa and the great pandits on this matter of sexual misconduct because I do feel that the views were formed based on social acceptance of the time.
I draw parallels with how women and the ordained female Sangha had been viewed throughout the history of Buddhism in India and Tibet. Nuns although many of whom achieved great heights of spiritual attainments had to take on more vows and were subservient to the male Sangha. This is codified in the Vinaya and even the Indian pandits like Nagarjuna and all viewed women rather negatively. This does not mean women are inferior to men although it is constitutionalised within Buddhism as such. This was formed due to societal norms of the past. The same goes with homosexuality, which was definitely not something that easy accepted within mainstream society.
Therefore, the definition of sexual misconduct is colored by the society of the time and may not be what ultimately is truly a sexual misconduct in karmic terms.
-
None of us chose to be who we are today, it is due to our own doing from the past and attachments which eventually we became who we are today. Buddhism in particular should understand this behaviour and be more acceptive in this issue. So, if HHTDL is OK with Gay Marriage i am not surprised but in any case people still think and judge and have their own point of view.