dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: psylotripitaka on December 22, 2013, 06:07:38 PM
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Dear friends,
I am curious what you think of how, even if the ban is lifted, the damage will be reversed?
I am thinking particularly of the fact that the Dalai Lama and others such as Lama Zopa have emphatically given their people reasons and grizzley stories about how bad our Protector is. Even if they lift the ban, this does not mean their people will change their view or actions. It is baffling to me how for instance, we could be so unquestioningly enamored by someone that our common sense and ability to use logic becomes totally incapacitated. For instance, how could we read Lama Zopa's write up against the Protector on lamayeshe archive and not see all the contradictions? Now even if they lift the ban and say to respect others and act in accordance with the Dharma, what do you think will really happen? And what work do you think we will need to do to reverse the damage that's been done especially to people's view?
It is in a certain light the same as the mental trauma and resentment harbored by people such as the Isreali's and Palestinian's, where damage has been done that is very hard to forget or forgive, and it therefore continues to fuel actions that perpetuate the negative cycle. Do you think this will be the same? What's the solution?
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1st- CTA should stand out and admit the decision on banning Dorje Shugden practice was a wrong decision made by them.
2nd- CTA should officially recognize Dorje Shugden practice.
3rd- CTA should host more gathering among Dorje Shugden practitioners with those which are not, we hope by doing this, with the help of mutual understandings and interactions, this will heal the trauma among them.
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Do you not think people will lose faith in the Dalai Lama, Lama Zopa and others if they turn around and say they made a mistake, that the stories of the Protector harming people weren't true, that all of a sudden DS is a Buddha?
Did people change their view and actions just because the 5th Dalai Lama said he made a mistake and subsequently wrote a praise and built a temple for the Protector? Where did the belongings and lineage of our precious Tulku go? Did various camps not still harbor negative views and actions that finally saw their day in 1996 through a supposed propagator of loving kindness, compassion, and wisdom installing the ban? How long ago did the 5th live, yet here we are in 2013 and it has become a world wide epidemic of non-virtue under veil of denial.
Anyone else have further ideas to help healing after the ban lifts? Pardon me if this has already been discussed at length, I haven't read about it yet.
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Why would you say that? The Dalai Lama and Lama Zopa previously were strong practitioners and proponents of Dorje Shugden, and then they turned against him. Yet people followed blindly and didn't lose faith. So if the Dalai Lama and Lama Zopa do it again, turn around on their words and now promote Dorje Shugden, what makes you think the Tibetans won't follow what he says? Seriously, the whole reason the ban has lasted as long as it has is BECAUSE THE TIBETANS DONT QUESTION WHAT THE DALAI LAMA SAYS!
So enough ranting.
I dare say, you don't have to worry about repairing the damage after the ban is lifted. The Dalai Lama did a decent job of concocting a ban that would stand up to all casual examination - in fact, opposition to the ban is limited to pockets of those with knowledge, while most of the world idly sits by applauding the Nobel Peace Prize-winning Dalai Lama not being sufficiently aware of the ban that he imposed, but most likely having heard of the name Dorje Shugden in passing. And when the ban comes down, that's when dorje Shugden will be seen and heard far and wide around the world in his full glory.
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Excellent reply Thor. I pray you're right.
Thank you for dismissing my considerations as ranting. Very helpful getting to the point.
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Actually I am not too concerned about whether the "damage" to Dorje Shugden's name and reputation can be repaired post ban. To those who know about the truth regarding the Protector, there is no damage as such. As for those who have obeyed the ban blindly, they will again follow blindly when the ban is removed.
What I am concerned about is the mass of bad karma that those who have opposed Shugden would have accumulated for themselves. We have seen opponents of the protector perform the heinous act of creating schism within the sangha, we have seen them curse and disparage a Buddha and we have witnessed how many have caused harm to be inflicted on innocent monks and lay practitioners alike. We have heard accounts of how statues and images of Dorje Shugden have been destroyed and we know that many monks were forced to disrobe as the result of severe punishments by anti-Shugden groups and individuals.
Not that Dorje Shugden will seek vengeance and punish them but these terrible acts must surely yield dire consequences for the perpetrators.
The important question is how these people can reverse or mitigate the damage they have create for themselves.
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The ban on Dorje Shugden has caused immeasurable mental and physical damage to many especially to the Tibetans in exile. It is impossible to reverse the damage which had occurred since the outset of the ban. How do you compensate for all the emotional pain, agony, anguish, suffering, anger, disappointment, fear, panic, worry, etc that had arisen? How do you compensate for all the financial loss? How do you compensate for the loss of lives?
In the conventional sense, His Holiness Dalai Lama appears to be wrong about the ban! However, how could HHDL be wrong if He is an emanation of Chenrezig who is fully enlightened, omniscient and compassionate? From the perspective of a pure view, HHDL seems to have a higher purpose in imposing the ban. It could be for the overall wellbeing of the Dorje Shugden Lineage and followers. Currently we don't have the wisdom to know why HHDL had initiated the ban and fully understood HHDL's intention.
It is not the case with Central Tibetan Administration (CTA) and those who had ignorantly supported the ban! They will unfortunately bear the consequences of their negative actions!
It will take a while after the ban is lifted before Shugden followers can totally forget about their sufferings over the last 30 years.
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From the perspective of a pure view, HHDL seems to have a higher purpose in imposing the ban.
From the perspective of a pure view, the dalai entity violated the most essential Buddhist precept, which is respect for one's guru, the foundation of all good qualities, and therefore does not even qualify as a Buddhist.
Currently we don't have the wisdom to know why HHDL had initiated the ban and fully understood HHDL's intention.
Actually what is lacking is wisdom to understand the most basic Buddhist principles, and thus to stop being fooled by non-Buddhist vow-breakers.
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For reasons unknown Lama Zopa has decided to go against his teachers, and brought all his people along that course.
I feel once the ban is lifted and Kopan and FPMT does Ds practice again, Lama Zopa's followers will follow suit. similarly for Dalai Lama's followers I believe. If the people have gratitude for their lamas teachings I think they will just toe the line. All will be revealed soon enough.
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I come to read about that "Tibetans don't question about what Dalai Lama says". This really make me contemplate more. Actually is funny that we became a genuine Buddhist and not heading to wise direction. How can we gain wisdom if we don't think and question but just follow blindly? Of cause the ban can be imposed by someone like HH Dalai Lama, but a true practitioner need to justify it instead of just follow. My question is do we need to wait for HH Dalai Lama to lift the ban after knowing that a lot of question marks raised relating to the ban? If we know it the ban was actually wrong, stop doing anything whereby will worst the scenario. Don't create any disharmony among the Buddhist practitioners. But before HH Dalai Lama ready to stand up to lift the ban, we should respect each other's practice and be at peace all the time. Do it now to reduce any damages and avoid negative consequences for over acting. I always believe that the true Buddhist practitioners can forgive and forget whatever damages had been done.
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Currently we don't have the wisdom to know why HHDL had initiated the ban and fully understood HHDL's intention.
Actually what is lacking is wisdom to understand the most basic Buddhist principles, and thus to stop being fooled by non-Buddhist vow-breakers.
Or, in other words, what is lacking is the wisdom to realize that the emperor has no clothes, and there is no “bigger picture” than just that, as many people have been fooled into believing, just like in Andersen's tale.
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Damage done will not be able to be reversed, i am sure. It is going to be very important for The Dalai Lama to lift the ban immediately to end the sufferings for our fellow Dorje Shugden practitioners.
But it will be good if CTA can at least redeem back their wrong doings such as:
1. Openly apologise to all the harmed ones
2. Redeem the harmed Dorje Shugden devotees whichever way they can.
3. Reunite the Tibetans and to continue voice for the freedom of Tibetans (especially their religious beliefs)
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Just like what the others say. If these high lams are going to step out saying that they are wrong, definitely there will be some followers that will lose their trust towards these high lamas. But if they do so, I believe that many would accept their apology and also understand that the Dalai Lama has banned the practice for Dorje Shugden for a period of time for a greater reason.
Although what is being said and done may not "repair" what is already damaged, but I believe that it does help in the situation by a little bit.
Best thing that should be done now is for the CTA to stop spreading so many false accusations about how negative Dorje Shugden practices are.
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Thank you for bringing up this issue for discussion. I have been thinking about this as there are no actions that are without repercussions. This is samsara, ruled by karma. Yes, while I agree that the Tibetans may just follow their leader blindly, would it benefit them if they continuously live in ignorance like a flock of sheep or should they be encouraged to think and analyze for themselves? If the crux of Tibetan Buddhism is mind transformation, then, unless the so-called blinded Tibetans open their eyes, where is the change that the lifting of the ban is meant to inculcate? ???
We should try to at least look at the hard work and dedication of the Bodhisatvas, Dorje Shugden and the Tulkus who return to partake in this illusionary play. For example, we use the phrase "lifting the ban" sparingly or ferociously. But what does it mean to you individually? How would it affect you on the deepest level, in your metamorphosis of Buddhahood. Because unless we feel the passion and sincerity to practice Dorje Shugden, discussions on this forum are mere intellectual exercises. If our practice, studies and understanding of Dorje Shugden are clear and pure, then, the lifting of the ban comes very naturally. We will stand and fight for what we truly believe in. We won't need to be cajoled, praised, pushed, threatened or be told to do so.
In short, maybe, this is just my humble opinion that the folly of the Tibetans could be just reflection of our intellectual ignorance. To reverse the damage, we transform ourselves by practicing the 3 principle paths of Lama Tsongkhapa, the 4 noble truths as illuminated by Shakyamuni Buddha. Always go back to the purpose of our King Protector. He protects the doctrine of Nagarjuna, the Middle Way. By diligently practicing them in our daily life, aren't we already starting to lift the ban and reverse any apparent damage? ;D
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I don't think that the damage can be reversed for a long time. I have personally not been able to understand the maze of Tibetan politics which are prevalent in Tibetan Buddhism. Whatever the reasons are for the ban, it can be justified that it is for the 'greater good', but personally, I am continuously finding it more and more difficult to accept that because of the hypocrisy and harm that has come about because of this ban.
Should the ban be lifted, it would be fantastic, but there really cannot be a positive outcome. People who followed the Dalai Lama blindly would be confused. Those who kept their faith in Dorje Shugden may feel relieved to be able to practice freely - but what was all the decades of struggle and strife all about? Is it karma? What kind of karma comes from practising a deity who is deemed a Buddha? Is the ban nonsensical? If it is, then everything the Dalai Lama says is nonsensical. We cannot be selective and say he is a Buddha here but he is not there. Or are we supposed to blindly have faith too that the Dalai Lama knows better?
I am still holding onto what HH Trijang Rinpoche said about not losing faith in the Dalai Lama nor Dorje Shugden, but it really does not make sense.
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I guess a lot of things makes no sense especially when it comes to the ban. The only thing that we could hold on to is what Trijang Rinpoche said in not losing faith in the Dalai Lama nor Dorje Shugden... yes this makes the best sense because... Trijang Rinpoche also did mentioned/predicted that what we are experiencing now will happen. So it's no surprise in this sense to me. If Trijang Rinpoche can predict this will happen, I am sure the Dalai Lama also knows. So what does this mean? To our ordinary mind, all of this may not make sense, and perhaps out comes more questions like why would Trijang Rinpoche say something like that and not stop it from happening in the first place? Or was it suppose to happen, like nature, to take its course in order for something else to take it's course? So is this all an illusory play of the divines?
If we knew everything, we would definitely not still be here stuck in samsara, unless willed by our own intent and control. Sometimes there are things in life I do believe are unexplainable to us, or we simply do not comprehend just yet, but just because we do not have the wisdom to understand it fully, that does not mean that it does not make any sense.... haha does that make sense?
In terms of damage, well... I would trust what the Buddha has taught us about "KARMA"... those who have merits will be able to continue the Dharma, and those who don't will be devoured by their own karma to follow the wrong view, even Lamas are not exempted from the laws of karma but lets not judge others before we judge ourselves eh? ;)
I agree with Thor, if they can follow blindly whatever the Dalai Lama says, they will again follow blindly what the Dalai Lama says about Dorje SHugden suddenly is a Buddha and He did a mistake and there is no ban. Those with a basic kind human heart would be able to forgive, that is after all the basis of all love and compassion.
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I wouldn't be too worry about the damaged done. The important thing is to have the ban lifted. History has shown us that we have short memory. How many people really cared about the Berlin Wall now, what Hitler did in the 2nd War World, the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Even the seemingly biggest financial crisis the world ever faced are fast forgotten and what have we really learnt?
Hence we the ban is lifted, I believe Dorje Shugden practice will spread fast and wide and most if not all who have turned their back in this practice will welcome and embrace the practice.
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I think the most important benefit of lifting the ban is that it will stop the abuse and discrimination towards the practitioners. Because of the ban, and because of the open blaming from HH Dalai Lama, His government and officials think it would be OK to discriminate the practitioners, deny them from basic rights, and in the latest development, they inflict violence towards Trijang Rinpoche's old student (monk).
Through the internet and social media, the world is getting more and more connected and information is exchanged much easier. Many of the people now knows the reasons given by HH Dalai Lama is no longer holding water, and the lift of ban will clear the doubt of Tibetans who are less educated.