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General Buddhism => General Buddhism => Topic started by: DS Star on February 10, 2013, 01:38:29 PM
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Now, does HELL really exist?
Khenpo Karthar, abbot of Karma Triyana Dharmachakra, has said that "From the Buddhist perspective, such a thing as a hell does not exist in absolute reality." Nevertheless, he continues, alluding to the law of karma, "As long as we have serious patterns of aggression, no matter how strongly we might like to believe there is not such a realm or psychological state, we will still experience it because we have the cause for the consequences."
The English word hell is derived from the name of a northern European goddess of the underworld whose name Hel means The one who covers [things] up.
There is some reference in the Old Testament to a hideous place called Gehennah [>Hebrew: gehenom] but scholars generally believe that the idea of a hell did not make its way from Asia to Europe until early in the second millennium, as a cultural consequence of the Crusades. It was not until Milton's Paradise Lost with its description of Satan and Pandemonium, and Dante's poem called The Inferno, that the idea of a fiery place smelling of noxious brimstone [sulphur] entered the consciousness of the West.
Ironically, it is the Western word hell that is now generally used, even in eastern traditions, to refer to the destination where, after death, a wrong-doer is punished. For example, paper money burnt as an offering to the dead is called Hell money even by Chinese Buddhists.
Buddhist scriptures describe in detail about hells. In Vajrayana there HOT HELLS and COLD HELLS.
So, do you believe in the existence of HELL(s)?
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If hell is generally described as a suffering realm, are we not already in hell, given that we are in samsara? If that is so, then hell does exist, does it not?
From : http://www.crystalinks.com/hell.html (http://www.crystalinks.com/hell.html)
Most of the schools of thought, Theravada, Mahayana, and Vajrayana would acknowledge several hells, which are places of great suffering for those who commit evil actions, such as cold hells and hot hells. Like all the different realms within cyclic existence, an existence in hell is temporary for its inhabitants. Those with sufficiently negative karma are reborn there, where they stay until their specific negative karma has been used up, at which point they are reborn in another realm, such as that of humans, of hungry ghosts, of animals, of asuras, of devas, or of Naraka (Hell) all according to the individual's karma.
There are a number of modern Buddhists, especially among Western schools, who believe that hell is but a state of mind. In a sense, a bad day at work could be hell, and a great day at work could be heaven.
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The Buddhist Concept of Heaven and Hell
The wise man makes his own heaven while the foolish man creates his own hell here and hereafter.The Buddhist concept of heaven and hell is entirely different from that in other religions. Buddhists do not accept that these places are eternal. It is unreasonable to condemn a man to eternal hell for his human weakness but quite reasonable to give him every chance to develop himself. From the Buddhist point of view, those who go to hell can work themselves upward by making use of the merit that they had acquired previously. There are no locks on the gates of hell. Hell is a temporary place and there is no reason for those beings to suffer there forever.The Buddha's Teaching shows us that there are heavens and hells not only beyond this world, but in this very world itself. Thus the Buddhist conception of heaven and hell is very reasonable. For instance, the Buddha once said, 'When the average ignorant person makes an assertion to the effect that there is a Hell (patala) under the ocean he is making a statement which is false and without basis. The word 'Hell' is a term for painful sensations. 'The idea of one particular ready-made place or a place created by god as heaven and hell is not acceptable to the Buddhist concept.The fire of hell in this world is hotter than that of the hell in the world-beyond. There is no fire equal to anger, lust or greed and ignorance. According to the Buddha, we are burning from eleven kinds of physical pain and mental agony: lust, hatred, illusion sickness, decay, death, worry, lamentation, pain(physical and mental), melancholy and grief. People can burn the entire world with some of these fires of mental discord. From a Buddhist point of view, the easiest way to define hell and heaven is that where ever there is more suffering, either in this world or any other plane, that place is a hell to those who suffer. And where there is more pleasure or happiness, either in this world or any other worldly existence, that place is a heaven to those who enjoy their worldly life in that particular place.
However, as the human realm is a mixture of both pain and happiness, human beings experience both pain and happiness and will be able to realize the real nature of life. But in many other planes of existence inhabitants have less chance for this realization. In certain places there is more suffering than pleasure while in some other places there is more pleasure than suffering.
Buddhists believe that after death rebirth can take place in any one of a number of possible existences. This future existence is conditioned by the last thought-moment a person experiences at the point of death. This last thought which determines the next existence results from the past actions of a man either in this life or before that. Hence, if the predominant thought reflects meritorious action, then he will find his future existence in a happy state. But that state is temporary and when it is exhausted a new life must begin all over again, determined by another dominating 'kammic' energy. This repetitious process goes on endlessly unless one arrives at 'Right View' and makes a firm resolve to follow the Noble Path which produces the ultimate happiness of Nibbana.
Heaven is a temporary place where those who have done good deeds experience more sensual pleasures for a longer period. Hell is another temporary place where those evil doers experience more physical and mental suffering. It is not justifiable to believe that such places are permanent. There is no god behind the scene of heaven and hell. Each and every person experiences according to his good and bad kamma. Buddhist never try to introduce Buddhism by frightening people through hell-fire or enticing people by pointing to paradise. Their main idea is character building and mental training. Buddhists can practise their religion without aiming at heaven or without developing fear of hell.
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Why not? If we believe in Heaven, shouldnt there also be a hell or hells?
This is the common practice of us human beings. We are too ignorant to acknowledge the existence of negativity. Everything has to work in our way and if it doesn't then it don't 'exist'. I think this is very bad for us because as we do so, we are only accumulating more and more negative karma which will eventually drag us to the place we do not believe in, HELL!
I choose to believe in it so that I fear it to not want to go there!
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There is no individual soul that exists after death-either we reach Nirvana or we are reincarnated in another life form.What we are reincarnated as depends on our karma and actions in our previous life.
Buddhist believe in reincarnation,which means we will keep going through through this life over and over again until reach Enlightenment (a state of mind when we are completely peaceful and in harmony with the world around you) We will be incarnated suiting how we treated others before.When we reach Enlightenment
we will go to Nirvana,
So there is a hell realm where sinful beings are been born and suffer, and the heaven realm where meritable beings are born.
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If the definition of Hell is sufferings, I do believe there is Hell. But it is not God who decides if we are going to hell, but our karmas. In fact, we can also find Hells in where we are living in, the human realm.
Some people suffer from famine, some countries are constantly in war, these are manifestations of Hell in human realm. If in human realm it is such a suffering, I cannot imagine in the real Hell how had it can be.
Knowing our destination is determined by our own actions now, I better be a good person, I don't want to end up in Hell!!
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What I think is that it is important to know if hell exists or not...or any of the 6 realms. So we know for sure that the human realm exists, the animal realm exists, but many of us cannot see the other realms, but all of us experiences pain and happiness just the same. Some experiences prolonged pain and very short lived happiness. To me, that is enough to look for an answer out of these miseries. If believing in hell and knowing the extreme sufferings makes me a better person, then believing it is a good thing... at least it will make a person to be a better person.
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Most of us have been bought up believing in the existence of Heaven and Hell. In most of the mainstream religions, the same belief exists.
I believe that Heaven and Hell exist in our own state of mind .
One can be in the most 'perfect' environment and situation, but if one's mind is in turmoil and has no peace, is depressed and in utter despair, the person is 'in hell'.
If another person who has absolutely nothing in his name or has no possessions at all, living in the most squalid of conditions but has peace and happiness within him and is content with life, he can say he's 'in heaven'.
But mostly, it depends on one's karma. Whether we have the karma to live our lives in happiness (heaven) or live our lives miserably (hell). We are the ones who can only change our karma and our mindset.
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I would like to go on the comparison of the concept of the Buddhist hell and the Christian hell. The Buddhist concept of hell is very different from Judeo-Christian beliefs for the sole fact that hell like any other realms is subject to karma and impermanence. Unlike the Judeo-Christian belief that hell is eternal, the Buddhist hell is impermanent and we can emerge from it and take rebirth in higher realms once our karma is finished.
In the Buddhist hell, we receive the same sort of sufferings based upon the sufferings we had inflicted upon others in previous lives. In the Christian hell, we go there based upon transgressions against the will of god and a host of other negative actions so god is punishing us for our transgressions. I do belief that such a realm do exist because the Buddha and many great beings tell us so. However, in Buddhism, the Buddha specifically taught of how one can create the causes to descend into hell and that is through anger. Every moment of anger creates a cause towards taking rebirth there. That's as far as I know of hells for now.
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Hell realm is one of the six realms of existence in samsara according to Buddhism. Hell realm exists and it is a state of the mind. When sentient beings create the right cause, they will take rebirth as hell beings in the hell realm when they die. Even before they die, humans experience life of a hell being. Humans who are constantly in the state of anger are experiencing the hell realm all the time! There are humans who live in extreme weather conditions like in the desert, or the Artic and Antartica. These living conditions are similar to the hot and cold hells!
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We must understand that the Buddhist concept of hell and heaven is totally different from other religions. Buddhist do not accept these places as eternal, it is just a temporary place.
Buddha also taught that hell do not have to be beyond of this world. The Buddha once said: When the average ignorant person makes an assertion to the effect that there is a Hell (patala) under the ocean he is making a statement which is false and without basis. The word 'Hell' is a term for painful sensations. 'The idea of one particular ready-made place or a place created by god as heaven and hell is not acceptable to the Buddhist concept.
The fire of hell in this world is hotter than that of the hell in the world-beyond. There is no fire equal to anger, lust or greed and ignorance. According to the Buddha, we are burning from eleven kinds of physical pain and mental agony: lust, hatred, illusion sickness, decay, death, worry, lamentation, pain(physical and mental), melancholy and grief. People can burn the entire world with some of these fires of mental discord. From a Buddhist point of view, the easiest way to define hell and heaven is that where ever there is more suffering, either in this world or any other plane, that place is a hell to those who suffer. And where there is more pleasure or happiness, either in this world or any other worldly existence, that place is a heaven to those who enjoy their worldly life in that particular place.
However, as the human realm is a mixture of both pain and happiness, human beings experience both pain and happiness and will be able to realize the real nature of life. But in many other planes of existence inhabitants have less chance for this realization. In certain places there is more suffering than pleasure while in some other places there is more pleasure than suffering.
Buddhists believe that after death rebirth can take place in any one of a number of possible existences. This future existence is conditioned by the last thought-moment a person experiences at the point of death. This last thought which determines the next existence results from the past actions of a man either in this life or before that. Hence, if the predominant thought reflects meritorious action, then he will find his future existence in a happy state. But that state is temporary and when it is exhausted a new life must begin all over again, determined by another dominating 'kammic' energy. This repetitious process goes on endlessly unless one arrives at 'Right View' and makes a firm resolve to follow the Noble Path which produces the ultimate happiness.
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I would like to direct everyone to the section of Joyful Path of Good Fortune entitled 'Gaining Conviction that Hell Exists'. We can also find such commentary in other Lamrim texts such as the Lamrim Chenmo and Je Pabonkhapa's commentaries on Lamrim.
There is this one line in Geshe Kelsang Gyatso Rinpoche's text that I've always found very clever. He says:
"We should ask anyone who believes in the non-existence of hell to present a perfect method for realizing it's non-existence. It would be wonderful if they could do this. Unfortunately no such method exists - but there are many correct reasons that establish the existence of hell."
Hell is both an external place and a state of consciousness. To say something exists 'externally' does not necessarily imply external from mind. The environment around us appears to be external from our mind but it is inside our mind. This is even proved by scientists! Nonetheless, we can say something is 'external' in order to speak conventionally - 'the outside of the body is external to the inside which is internal' and so forth. The hells are external places that are appearing inside the mind of hell beings but appearing to their mind to be outside their mind just as our world appears to be outside our mind.
Yes, hell exists. Buddha explained it extensively and even told anecdotes about going there, and he is not the only one to have done so. If we gained deep conviction in the existence of the hells and how they are achieved, we would be very different people indeed, much more careful about our actions for sure!
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I believe in hell, but if its a physical hell in the chinese folklore i do not know. I heard from some senior buddhist friends that heaven and hell are created base on our disposition and attachments. In the moment of death, if we are still clinging on to anger and attachment and these are causes to be reborn in the lower realms of existence. We are most likely to be reborn in the lower realms. That's one explanation on how we cause ourselves to be reborn in the lower realms.
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The Buddhist texts states that there are thirty one planes or states of existence in the universe, including that of humans. Beings are born into a particular plane depending of their accumulated kamma.
Below the human plane are four planes (Asura,Peta,Thiracchana and Niraya) which are described as unhappy states of existence. Beings are born into these states as a result of their unwholesome kamma. Excessive greed and attachment to worldly belongings may cause re-birth in the Peta plane and be drawn to the place of attachment.
Above the human plane are the Deva and Brahma planes. As the level of plane becomes higher, more subtle is the state of existence and longer is the life span.
The Devas have physical forms which are composed of more subtle material than that in the human plane. They possess physical senses as in humans and enjoy a life of great pleasure. They may also possess supernormal powers.
The Brahma planes are described as form and formless states. In the formless states, the beings are devoid of any material bodies. They transcends all physical sensations and exist in a state of equanimity.
Beings in these higher planes are described as celestial beings and their life span is said to last billions of years relative to earthly life.
It may well be that so called 'gods' are such beings.
Even though the life-spans in these higher planes of existence last millions of years relative to earth, they eventually come to an end, since the existence in all these planes are conditioned: that is, the laws of cause and effect operate, and all conditioned things are impermanent.
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I would like to direct everyone to the section of Joyful Path of Good Fortune entitled 'Gaining Conviction that Hell Exists'. We can also find such commentary in other Lamrim texts such as the Lamrim Chenmo and Je Pabonkhapa's commentaries on Lamrim.
There is this one line in Geshe Kelsang Gyatso Rinpoche's text that I've always found very clever. He says:
"We should ask anyone who believes in the non-existence of hell to present a perfect method for realizing it's non-existence. It would be wonderful if they could do this. Unfortunately no such method exists - but there are many correct reasons that establish the existence of hell."
Hell is both an external place and a state of consciousness. To say something exists 'externally' does not necessarily imply external from mind. The environment around us appears to be external from our mind but it is inside our mind. This is even proved by scientists! Nonetheless, we can say something is 'external' in order to speak conventionally - 'the outside of the body is external to the inside which is internal' and so forth. The hells are external places that are appearing inside the mind of hell beings but appearing to their mind to be outside their mind just as our world appears to be outside our mind.
Yes, hell exists. Buddha explained it extensively and even told anecdotes about going there, and he is not the only one to have done so. If we gained deep conviction in the existence of the hells and how they are achieved, we would be very different people indeed, much more careful about our actions for sure!
You hit on a very good point there psylotripitaka. I like what you said about proving the non-existence of hell. I would like to add that just because we cannot perceive Hell, doesn't mean it does not exist. This is just like the fact that just because we cannot see atoms doesn't mean that it does not exist. I like that line of logical thought very much. This is put together with what you said about the existence of hell in our minds.
I personal think mental suffering for most people is far greater than physical suffering. With the right perspective, physical suffering can be transformed into joyous perseverance. I have heard of monks who endured torture in the Chinese gulags that transformed their physical suffering into spiritual practice. Every day, this monk said he visualized all the sufferings that he had to endure is him enduring all the negative karma of Gaden, Sera and Drepung. He experienced horrendous torture but emerged looking bright, alert and even cheerful. This is no a small achievement as many who emerge out of such torture mentally scarred but this monk showed no traces. It is amazing! It is amazing how applying the teachings can actually transform our personal hells into a spiritual path.
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I believe that hell exists...sometimes when I look at the sufferings of samsara and how much we live in samsara and keep hurting...I tend to be cynical and think that Hell is on Earth...
I read this article:
http://wisdomquarterly.blogspot.com/2008/10/is-there-buddhist-heavenhell.html (http://wisdomquarterly.blogspot.com/2008/10/is-there-buddhist-heavenhell.html)
Is there a Buddhist Hell?
Interesting and may give some perspective... This paragraph caught my attention:
"The Buddha taught that heavenly and hellish worlds exist not only beyond this world but also within it, within beings. Here and now, beings "burn" with greed/lust, anger/fear, delusion/ignorance. Beings endure emotional as well as physical pain. No matter what plane of existence or state of consciousness, Buddhist hells are places where there is more unpleasant than pleasant sensation. Buddhist heavens are places where there is more bliss than suffering. In either, living beings who experience experiencing an extremely rare and "precious human birth" can learn and progress toward enlightenment faster than beings in other realms.
Beyond death, Buddhist teaching holds that there is an incredible spectrum of possibility. It is inevitable that no new state of conditioned existence can become eternal. Hells are terrible, and there are some horrific representations of the lower more gruesome ones. Heavens may be pleasant, sublime, and filled with ecstasy, but they're transient. Final peace lies beyond Samsara and clinging to attachments to the pleasant. Liberation from the cycle of rebirth is nirvana, the unconditioned."
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if we believe in Buddhism, we believe in karma. if we believe there is an existence of God/Buddha, then we should believe ghosts/spirits exists. If you believe there is Heaven, then you should accept the fact that HELL exists and it is not a mere imaginative realm.
Hell for me not only exists in subtle form (or the realm that we don't see) but on earth itself there are Hell everywhere in the world. When you see places without food, war zones, places where it is very cold in TV or you witness yourself that is hell itself.
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I recently heard someone describing how hell and heaven were understood, or explained, by some spiritual traditions as a state "beyond", as "another world" separate from "this world" while Buddhism did explain hell as a "world" not separate yet not together with our world.
Not separate because there is no such thing as a "separation", as "distinct objective worlds", as "limits or boundaries" other than conceptual or chronological.
So hell (as a place other than were I am now) exists as such if we accept to talk about it in conceptual terms only.
In whole terms, there is no such "place" until it is actually experienced and then it is no more a "separate" place.
Is hell another place in the understanding of it is as a result separated from our actions by a distance of time?
Maybe we experience hell now as a separate experience from the action that created it, example: a kind hearted person suffers from cancer. The relation between cause and effect is not obvious as the witness of the cause has vanished and it is no more a known cause other than by extrapolation and intellectual understanding of it over faith in previous lives.
Maybe we fear the experience of hell in the future as we project conceptually the result of some of our actions that we recognize as non-virtuous, this based on faith (faith that our actions will bear fruits resembling their causes and experienced by the doer) and intellectual cognition.
But even the chronological "separation" is conceptual because an understanding of the past can only be conceptual simply because the past does not exist anymore nor anywhere else than in the result of our actions.
Thus the past IS our present (as a result) or is a conceptual limited understanding, the latter not being a reliable understanding and merely a thinking tool.
One that believes in hell is one that believes in future lives, either "eternal" hell as portrayed by some traditions or temporary hell by others.
This belief is an intellectual conceptual foundation propelling one to refrain from non-virtuous actions and engage in virtuous actions. All religions have this in common and conceptualize it in various forms for our understanding.
I think all religions would say that the Truth is beyond our intellectual understanding, yet they do rely upon our intellectual understanding and thus conceptualize it to various degrees for us to grasp.
Hell is thus a concept that is easily grasped.
Attached herewith is an image by Jerome Bosch depicting the "HELL BOUND ON A SHIP OF FOOLS" in case we have too little imagination to grasp the concept of hell.
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I do believe in hell. And I do believe in heavan, if not where do all the enlighted beings stay? we heard heard of paradise but we do not know where and how they operate, so does hell. I was taught since young, we do have a hell realm and it is either we go up or down to exhaust our negative karma so that we can take rebirth after all is purified. But this does not make sense to me anymore. We can actually purified our karma even we are living, same goes with gaining merits. Therefore, what is the purpose of hell if everything operates on the law of karma knowing that we are the very ones to take charge of our karma? Hence, the "punishment" is based on our human weaknesses such as ignorance, selfishness and lack of dharma? It just doesn't make sense to me.
After knowing the law of karma, I do see hell is not a place but it is an existence of our after life depending on our actions in our present life. For example, if we are very attached to a place and very lustful, it is most likely we contribute ourselves in to becoming a lustful spirit who hangs around in that place that we are very attached to. It seems like the spirits is on the loose and there is no physical place for them to live and punish them. Hence hell is not a physical place but a state of mind. It matches Buddhism very much because everything is about consciousness and not physical.
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After knowing the law of karma, I do see hell is not a place but it is an existence of our after life depending on our actions in our present life. For example, if we are very attached to a place and very lustful, it is most likely we contribute ourselves in to becoming a lustful spirit who hangs around in that place that we are very attached to. It seems like the spirits is on the loose and there is no physical place for them to live and punish them. Hence hell is not a physical place but a state of mind. It matches Buddhism very much because everything is about consciousness and not physical.
Barzin, your last statement says it all :)
In Buddhism everything is in the MIND. The whole world exists in our mind... that is to say, without the concepts formed in our minds, our worlds does not exists. Having said that;
Why do we feel that our 'physical' world is so real?
Why are we affected so much by what is happening 'outside' of our minds?
Does it means natural disasters like earth quake or Tsunami only exist in our mind???
So HELL is not a physical place but only a state of mind?
In my opinion, psylotripitaka gaves the best answers for this question on existence of 'Hell'.
Hell is both an external place and a state of consciousness. To say something exists 'externally' does not necessarily imply external from mind. The environment around us appears to be external from our mind but it is inside our mind. This is even proved by scientists! Nonetheless, we can say something is 'external' in order to speak conventionally - 'the outside of the body is external to the inside which is internal' and so forth. The hells are external places that are appearing inside the mind of hell beings but appearing to their mind to be outside their mind just as our world appears to be outside our mind.
Yes, hell exists. Buddha explained it extensively and even told anecdotes about going there, and he is not the only one to have done so. If we gained deep conviction in the existence of the hells and how they are achieved, we would be very different people indeed, much more careful about our actions for sure!