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General Buddhism => General Buddhism => Topic started by: Jessie Fong on November 22, 2012, 01:41:46 PM

Title: Death can be Cheated?
Post by: Jessie Fong on November 22, 2012, 01:41:46 PM
Another article had people discussing about the "merits" received while sponsoring coffins.  Apparently, this is widespread in Thailand.  I read an article also related to coffins, but this time it is about trying to cheat death (and thus you prolong your life) when you lie in the coffin (before you are dead).  Bizarre?

Meantime, chanting is carried out.  You are supposed to feel relieved and re-born as you emerge from this experience.

A friend of mine told me that he had visited a temple in Thailand where this was carried out. It was explained that this act would allow you to experience and accept death.
 
I do not know of any teaching that puts you through this experience. 

Would anyone care to share how this is going to help us prolong our life?
Title: Re: Death can be Cheated?
Post by: buddhalovely on November 22, 2012, 01:46:37 PM
Adult stem cells, used in bone marrow transplants for over 40 years, are harvested from the patient – the most resilient cells are then extracted and concentrated, and re-injected into the patient's body to a targeted area using a virus or protein delivery system. But, it is in embryonic stem cells that the limitations of reprogramming into other cell types are lifted and where the exponential benefit of embryonic stem cells lies. They can become practically any type of human tissue, making them a more appealing option than non-hybrid adult stem cells.

The article adds that, "Geron, a biotechnology company … this year won the Food and Drug Administration's approval to conduct the first-ever study of embryonic stem cells in humans." So, it seems, despite the ethical considerations, mankind will now move forward with the testing of embryonic stem cells in humans. However, there are risks. Embryonic stem cells can form tumors. Additionally, they are foreign – like a transplanted organ – and require powerful anti-immunity drugs to prevent rejection.

"It's that latter problem [use of anti-immunity drugs] that makes scientists particularly excited about iPS cells, which would have the clinical potential of embryonic cells but can be created from a patient's own cells. Reprogramming an adult cell into an embryo-like, more malleable state sidesteps the issue of immune rejection, not to mention the moral debate," the article suggests.
Title: Re: Death can be Cheated?
Post by: Big Uncle on November 24, 2012, 07:11:06 AM
I assume you are talking about prolonging one's life and not just living forever or immortality. In Buddhism, there are many practices to heal and prolong one's life and there are many deities and practices that bestows this capability. Practices like Amitayus, White Tara and Namgyalma are the 3 deities associated with long life and health. They are a great practices to extend one's life so one may be able to take full advantage of one's life to practice the Dharma and collect even more merits for a better future rebirth.
Title: Re: Death can be Cheated?
Post by: dondrup on November 24, 2012, 08:12:33 AM
I cannot comment on the effectiveness of the procedure as described. 

What benefit would one get from lying in the coffin as described? Coffin is synonymous with death.  One’s meditation on the death process is heightened and made more realistic for sure!   No one should attempt this feat unless one is brave and provided one is properly guided with the Buddhist teachings about death. I can say that the experience will help that person to understand death better.  The effect from this is that this person will use his life wisely to practise Dharma and in the course of his practice, he may prolong his life with the relevant practices as described below.

There are many Buddhist practitioners who would go to the cremation grounds, cemeteries and graveyards to meditate on death.  These are powerful methods to overcome ego, fear and to generate the mind of compassion.

There are many practices that will prolong life and Big Uncle has mentioned the long life yidams or deities practices.  Liberating animals and giving medicines to the sick and old are some other methods to extend one’s life.  The point to note is prolonging one’s life in order to practise Dharma and to benefit others.
Title: Re: Death can be Cheated?
Post by: Jessie Fong on November 24, 2012, 09:55:34 AM
Quote from: Big Uncle on November 24, 2012, 07:11:06 AM
I assume you are talking about prolonging one's life and not just living forever or immortality.


Yes, Big Uncle. The article touched on "prolong your life" .. if someone had found the secret to immortality or the fountain of youth, please let us know.

Read ... A recent report (http://buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=52,7190,0,0,1,0 (http://buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=52,7190,0,0,1,0)) mentioned that "Buddhism in Thailand can take strange forms, embracing animist superstition, magical practices - and the entrepreneurial spirit of many senior monks. Many Thais say that the true spirit of Buddhism is being lost." If this new ritual taps on greed for quick fixes and the fear of death, it's unskilful. In the film at least, the ritual never encouraged the creation of good karma as the right means of diluting the ill effects of bad karma. It is illogical that playing dead will eradicate all present bad karma - especially since remnant karma is a burden (or blessing) that is carried over to the next life anyway. The true way to completely "cheat death" once and for all is to realise deathlessness - Nirvana - which is what the Buddha did!
Title: Re: Death can be Cheated?
Post by: RedLantern on November 24, 2012, 01:36:45 PM
The reason for us to prolong our life should be,for us to be able to benefit and not harm others.Below are a list of many Buddhist practices that create the causes for healing and prolonging life.Individual guidance of a Tibetan Guru is best suited for the individual.
Practices to purify the mind from causes of sickness and early death.
1.  Meditation
2.. Cultivating bodhicitta - the alturistic mind of cherishing and serving others.
3.  Nyungnay  - a Chenrezig practice of purification with mantra,visualization,prostration and fasting.
4.  Medicine Buddha practice.
5.  Tara practice (especially White Tara}
6.  Mantras
7.  Saving lives of others
8.  Tonglen or giving and receiving loving kindness and compassion meditation
9.  Engaging in virtue such as generosity.
Title: Re: Death can be Cheated?
Post by: ratanasutra on November 24, 2012, 06:33:37 PM
I do not think that death can be cheated.  i heard that apart from thailand, people in south korea also believe in this.

I heard from a Thai friend that people lie in a coffin because they believe it can get away their bad luck, and there are 4 monks do a chanting like when people pass a way while they are lying down in the coffin. Some people who did this realized about life and death during this process that at the end of life they take nothing with them. And when it over the monks did a prayer and blessing to them. Some of people avoid non virtue actions after went through this but some still act and did same as before.
   
Title: Re: Death can be Cheated?
Post by: sonamdhargey on November 25, 2012, 08:22:21 AM
It is like when a Lama warned a student about his death and by giving certain instructions to avoid untimely death. Does that mean cheating death?  Maybe the tradition of the Thai Buddhist uses this method as a purification practice or a practice to remind ourselves about death. To remind us how precious our human life is and to put our life to good use and not waste time on things that does not help us in the end.

Like what Jessie Fong said, becoming Buddha is the way to be free from birth and death and i totally agree with that and that way there is no death and no birth.
Title: Re: Death can be Cheated?
Post by: sonamdhargey on November 25, 2012, 08:28:20 AM
Quote from: buddhalovely on November 22, 2012, 01:46:37 PM
Adult stem cells, used in bone marrow transplants for over 40 years, are harvested from the patient – the most resilient cells are then extracted and concentrated, and re-injected into the patient's body to a targeted area using a virus or protein delivery system. But, it is in embryonic stem cells that the limitations of reprogramming into other cell types are lifted and where the exponential benefit of embryonic stem cells lies. They can become practically any type of human tissue, making them a more appealing option than non-hybrid adult stem cells.

The article adds that, "Geron, a biotechnology company … this year won the Food and Drug Administration's approval to conduct the first-ever study of embryonic stem cells in humans." So, it seems, despite the ethical considerations, mankind will now move forward with the testing of embryonic stem cells in humans. However, there are risks. Embryonic stem cells can form tumors. Additionally, they are foreign – like a transplanted organ – and require powerful anti-immunity drugs to prevent rejection.

"It's that latter problem [use of anti-immunity drugs] that makes scientists particularly excited about iPS cells, which would have the clinical potential of embryonic cells but can be created from a patient's own cells. Reprogramming an adult cell into an embryo-like, more malleable state sidesteps the issue of immune rejection, not to mention the moral debate," the article suggests.

I'm trying to understand this article to relate it with Death can be Cheated? And I can't see where is the relation between stem cell and death. Care to share how to connect this two? Is this article trying to suggest that we human can use stem cell to rebuild our human body and remain youthful. Or we can use the stem cell to revive a dead human body?
Title: Re: Death can be Cheated?
Post by: bambi on November 25, 2012, 08:40:06 AM
It is bizarre Jessie! I am not sure how lying in a coffin will prolong one's life though but I do know that there are 3 practices and benefits that can as mentioned by Big Uncle.
If the person lie in the coffin and do not feel the transformation then what is the purpose? It is just like lying in a box with the lid on. If this practice is to encourage people to be better with the correct guidance and motivation, I believe it will be an amazing experience.
Title: Re: Death can be Cheated?
Post by: pgdharma on November 27, 2012, 01:21:38 PM
If Buddhists truly fear death, they ought to liberate themselves from not just death in this lifetime, but rebirths and "redeaths" too. It is more skilful to cultivate the fearlessness of death after accepting death, than to fear death itself. How many times can death be cheated anyway, if it is possible? To conquer death, we need to conquer our inner Mara - our defilements of greed, hate and delusion, the very culprits who bind us the wheel of Samsara.

The coffin ritual could be modified to be a meditation process, for contemplation on mortality. There is already a long Thai Buddhist tradition of monastic contemplating impermanence by meditating on the stages of decay in corpses, while the coffin ritual seems to advocate clinging to life. It is this clinging though that perpetuates rebirth and the suffering it entails. This bizarre Thai ritual where believers think death can be cheated (thus prolonging life) by lying in a coffin before their actual deaths, while chanting is done for them and bad karma can be dissipated too is more of a psychological effect, if we are to imagine we have passed away, while lying still during a solemn mass "funeral", and there would be the tendency to feel renewed upon re-emergence. Mindful reflective listening to chanting also does wonders. It is illogical that playing dead will eradicate all present bad karma - especially since remnant karma is a burden (or blessing) that is carried over to the next life anyway. The true way to completely "cheat death" once and for all is to realize deathlessness - Nirvana - which is what the Buddha did!
Title: Re: Death can be Cheated?
Post by: Tenzin K on November 28, 2012, 05:40:17 PM
Something new to me but what is the reason for doing so?

After we experience death or accept it what are we going to do?

Accepting death in Buddhism is not something new in fact it is mention in the Buddhism text.
By experiencing death and accept it should change our view of life. We should appreciate what we have and the great opportunity of learning dharma and practicing it. Every moment we live on and if realize how fortunate we able to live in the 8 opportune condition we should transform our mind and do something virtue for our live. We should contemplate the experience of death every day in the first morning we wake up before doing any other things and set the motivation and hold on towards the day to remind us how lucky we are that still alive and all the basic necessity available to learn and practice dharma.
Title: Re: Death can be Cheated?
Post by: psylotripitaka on December 06, 2012, 11:09:45 AM
Yes, your death can be cheated by attaining meaning clear light and the pure illusory body (deathless vajra body).

Title: Re: Death can be Cheated?
Post by: Ensapa on December 06, 2012, 11:33:37 AM
Quote from: Jessie Fong on November 22, 2012, 01:41:46 PM
Another article had people discussing about the "merits" received while sponsoring coffins.  Apparently, this is widespread in Thailand.  I read an article also related to coffins, but this time it is about trying to cheat death (and thus you prolong your life) when you lie in the coffin (before you are dead).  Bizarre?

Meantime, chanting is carried out.  You are supposed to feel relieved and re-born as you emerge from this experience.

A friend of mine told me that he had visited a temple in Thailand where this was carried out. It was explained that this act would allow you to experience and accept death.
 
I do not know of any teaching that puts you through this experience. 

Would anyone care to share how this is going to help us prolong our life?

To me, it is just something to psyche people up into thinking that things are okay after they do this ritual. To me it makes no sense at all: sleep in a coffin all you want, but if it is not going to make you a better person, it will not unless the person who sleeps in there really thinks about life and really feels like they're dying. Else, its just another silly ritual that people do just because they are too bored. I really dont buy into this type of things, but if its your cup of tea...go ahead.
Title: Re: Death can be Cheated?
Post by: dsiluvu on December 09, 2012, 02:12:38 PM
I have heard that if a person is suffering from a tragic "death" threatening disease or illness such as "cancer", there is a great and very powerful practice that can help alleviate this type of bad situations including black magic and spirit harms. In fact it can even prolong the practitioner's life. Here is a short excerpt from Lama Zopa Rinpoche himself...

Vajrapani Hayagriva Garuda

"Certain deities manifest to protect sentient beings from the harm of nagas. The Vajrapani-Hayagriva-Garuda deity, for example, specifically manifests to protect sentient beings from nagas as well as from harmful spirits. Vajrapani, embodiment of the perfect power of all the Buddhas, is the opponent of the spirits that cause such things as epileptic fits.

Of course, we have to remember that the actual origin of harm from nagas and spirits is our own three poisonous minds of ignorance, anger, and attachment. Nagas and spirits are simply conditions for our disease; the real cause of their harm is our own mind.

While Vajrapani-Hayagriva-Garuda practice is a remedy to spirit harm, its ultimate purpose is to liberate us from the three poisonous minds. We should do the practice not just to protect ourselves from this harm, but to liberate ourselves by actualizing the path of method and wisdom within our mind.

Our ultimate aim, of course, is to cease karma and delusion, thus overcoming not only disease but the entire suffering of samsara, including the cycle of death and rebirth. We will then be able to complete the path to enlightenment and work perfectly for all sentient beings."

- Kyabje Lama Zopa Rinpoche   


(http://www.fpmt-ldc.org/images/ps_vhg.jpg)

Vajrapani Hayagriva Garuda Mantra

Om Vajrapani Hayagriva Garuda Hum Phat (7x)[/size]


( To clear inner, outer and secret obstacles especially spirit harms, naga harms, causes of negative energy and to create protection for all purposes - by Geshe Tenzin Zopa)
Title: Re: Death can be Cheated?
Post by: Benny on December 09, 2012, 04:24:36 PM
There is no cheating death, personally i do not believe that the practice was meant to achieve that. It is in my opinion that this  tradition of the Thai Buddhist was method used as a purification practice or a practice to remind themselves about death and impermanence . Maybe to remind them how precious human life is and to put their life to good use and not to commit negative actions.

So , indirectly these belief does indeed has its effectiveness because whichever person who has gone through that process would most likely become more mindful of Death. As such they would most likely do more good deeds and avoid negative ones, and in the process these people manage to prolong their life. For , example liberating animals that are bound for slaughter.
Title: Re: Death can be Cheated?
Post by: Aurore on December 09, 2012, 07:58:26 PM
This is a probably a method how Thais practice death meditation which became a superstitious believe over time or as a method to "cheat" people to engage in this act by promoting as a life prolonging method.

Here's an excerpt from Dalai Lama's book "Becoming Enlightened" about death meditation:-
----------
To make us mindful of death, the Buddha taught meditation on death. If you are mindful of death, you will be drawn into thinking of many things, particularly whether there is life after death. Even if you suspect that there is, you will take interest in the quality of that life — what it might be like.

This will lead you to think about Karma, the cause and effect of action, thereby drawing you away from choosing activities of harmful nature and encouraging you to engage in activities that are beneficial. This itself will lend your life a positive purpose.

If you try to avoid even the mention of death, then on the day when death comes, you may be frightened. However, if you contemplate the fact that death happens naturally to all living beings, this can make a big difference. When you become familiar with death, you can make preparations for dying, and decide what you should do with your mind at that time. On that day your preparation will have its effect; you will think “Ah, death has come,” and you will act as you had planned, free from fright.
-----

Once realisation kicks in, one may do meritorious work and positive deeds. This act itself can perhaps prolong one's life.

"The sooner a person begins to meditate on the meaning of death, the sooner a person begins to truly live."
Title: Re: Death can be Cheated?
Post by: Dondrup Shugden on June 27, 2015, 04:09:41 PM
While everything is impermanent, death is inevitable.  No cheating of death and the other point to know is we never know when it will come.

The practice in Thailand to lie in a coffin is not to cheat death nor to void of bad luck, a friend of mine practised this under the supervision of a Buddhist teacher and the lesson is to accept death and do good with your life so that this precious human life is not wasted. Living your life along the Buddhist philosophy of benefitting others will enable a better rebirth but at most level we do not even remember our past lives.  So having been exposed to the Dharma, it is important to at least ensure that we may be reborn in a realm whereby our Buddhist practice can continue.

Even if we do have a great desire to prolong our lives, let it be lived in true meaning and be in the Dharma to benefit all sentient beings. 
Title: Re: Death can be Cheated?
Post by: MoMo on June 28, 2015, 02:53:23 PM
This practice of lying in a coffin to my belief is equivalent to Tibetan death meditation  or monks meditate in front of skeleton to accelerate and familiar oneself with mortality or impermanence of all phenomena that all these will cease to be one day but the most bizarre things that happened here was akin to the games we played of whispering a simple message down the line in a long queue of participants . The final message that the last person perceived was totally obscured from the original ! The claimed purpose of it will prolong one’s life could came out from some reporters or writers interviewing some villagers that have no basic understanding of Buddhism practice  or trying to write an article  to increase viewership due to of its obscure or bizarre nature. It could also be true that someone  could take steps to improve their health and valuing his human existence  more when they realized how vulnerable  life could be  by experiencing mock death.
Title: Re: Death can be Cheated?
Post by: Jason Statham on June 28, 2015, 05:07:27 PM
I wouldn't say that death can be cheated, I would much rather to say that death is depended or rather judged by our karma. Some people throughout their lives, they might have some incidents, they were close to death and they might think that they cheated death or something but in reality it is just our karma. Sometimes we fully suffer the whole consequences is because of our merits as well. Karma and good merits are depended whether if they are open or not. We have to always cherish our lives and hold it well because it is extremely extremely difficult to be reborn as a human. So practice the dharma, do not let this precious life slip away, once it slips away, it will be very hard to regain it.
 
Title: Re: Death can be Cheated?
Post by: yontenjamyang on July 13, 2015, 06:47:54 AM
Death is the only sure thing in life. Yes perhaps we can "cheat" death some of the time but not all the time. Eventually it will come as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow.  Perhaps even more sure than that. And we do not know when. Hence, we must treat it that we have very little time and must be diligent it the practice of the Dharma by first taking refuge and by the practice of renunciation, boddhicitta and wisdom.

Ironically, the results of Dharma practice ie, Liberation and Enlightenment is the only sure fire way to "cheat" death and we call this "deathlessness".
Title: Re: Death can be Cheated?
Post by: cookie on July 15, 2015, 05:57:24 AM
I don't believe anyone can "cheat" death as per say. Very high practitioners e.g  High Lamas can control their time of death and time and location of rebirth etc. But they will still manifest close to the normal death situation with the exception of extra special conditions like Thukdam (death meditation), where the body resting in the state of the Ground Luminosity: There is still a certain color and glow in their face, the nose does not sink inward, the skin remains soft and flexible, the body does not become stiff, the eyes are said to keep a soft and compassionate glow, and there is still a warmth at the heart. Great care is taken that the master’s body is not touched, and silence is maintained until he or she has arisen from this state of meditation.
Title: Re: Death can be Cheated?
Post by: Joo Won on July 31, 2015, 03:11:44 PM
When I was young I heard about people talking "preparing coffin" in advance or during one's middle age as a way to pro-long one's life. The practice in Thailand mentioned by Jessie seems similiar to this.

I guess different culture has different perspective on death. I visited to a place named Troja in Indonesia few years back; and learned that the people there keep their departed loved one's body in the house, lay on the bed they use to sleep on and live together with the dead, until they manage to arrange a big big funeral. For them death is a big and important festival compare to birth.

However, you can never cheat King of Death...you can't buy time with mountain of money you have; nor can you bribe to delay your death. Only Dharma can help during the time of death. 
Title: Re: Death can be Cheated?
Post by: eyesoftara on September 20, 2015, 10:28:38 AM
The principal behind this practice is to "die" and hence complete the karma for this lifetime similar to purification practices. And the monk will then do prayers to invite a better "life" for the person wishing to do this. In that way, the luck of the person is change for the better.

I do not know if this work or not. Maybe it will have some effects similar to making wrathful offerings to the Yidams. Otherwise, logically, as all the aggregates (certainly) the form aggregate is the same, there is not much effective change expect perhaps some purification is performed.
Title: Re: Death can be Cheated?
Post by: Midakpa on September 26, 2015, 02:01:12 PM
This seems to be a superstitious practice but it might help the person to realise impermanence or to rid himself/herself of the fear of death.

In Buddhism, death is one of the four Maras and one's practice, in order to attain Buddhahood, is to overcome the four Maras or demons: the Mara of the delusions, the Mara of the contaminated aggregates, the Mara of death, and Devaputra Mara. "All four are called mara (obstacle) because they prevent the attainment of nirvana, the deathless state.” (Asanga, ?r?vakabh?mi). The Mara of death can be defined as "the factor that, due to actions and afflictions, terminates the life faculty against one’s will." This Mara causes the time of death for sentient beings among the types of sentient beings.

Here is what Lama Tsongkhapa said regarding the four Maras:

“The Mara of the afflictions (delusions) does not exist from the eighth stage (bhumi) on. Regarding the Mara of death, death due to actions and afflictions does not occur from the first stage on, but the transmigration (’chi ’pho ba) of mind and body is not overcome until the attainment of Buddhahood. Therefore, the Mara of death and the Mara of the aggregates exist until the attainment of Buddhahood. Since the deity Mara [Devaputra] impedes [the defeat] of the [other] three, it exists as long as those three continue to operate.” (Tsongkhapa, "Golden Rosary").

From the above description, it can be seen that there are the coarse as well as the subtle forms of the Mara of death. How does one destroy the Mara of death on the Hinayana and on the Mahayana paths? According to Tsongkhapa's disciple, Gyaltsab Je, "On the Hinayana path, one destroys the Mara of death when one becomes an arhat who is both fully liberated from the afflictive obstructions and is a master of meditative absorption. ... [On the Mahayana path] the Bodhisattva ... destroys the coarse Mara of death at the eighth stage because he abandons the Mara of death who causes death through coarse exertion." (Gyaltsab Dharma Rinchen, in Donald S. Lopez Jr., "The Heart Sutra Explained")