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General Buddhism => General Buddhism => Topic started by: Q on November 19, 2012, 11:15:27 AM
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I read a story about the Butcher's son which goes like this:
There once was a man who was a srota- aapanna born into the family of a butcher. He was on the threshhold of adulthood. Although he was expected to pursue his household occupation, he was unable to kill animals. His father and mother gave him a knife and a sheep and shut him up in a room, telling him, "If you do not kill the sheep, we will not allow you to come out and see the sun or the moon or to have the food and drink to survive."
The son thought to himself, "If I kill this sheep, then I will[be compelled to] pursue this occupation my entire life. How could I commit this great crime [simply] for the sake of this body?" Then he took up the knife and killed himself. The father and mother opened the door to look. The sheep was standing to one side whereas the son was [laying there], already expired.
At that time, when he killed himself, he was born in the heavens. If one is like this, then this amounts to not sparing [even one's own] life in safeguarding [the integrity of] the pure precepts.
End Notes: A srota-aapanna is a first- stage arhat, otherwise known as a "stream-winner."
If killing is prohibited in all forms, how come the butcher son was born into the heavens? Although his motivation is pure, that he wishes not to pursue a life killing animals, however, taking his own life is also considered killing and karma is formed regardless.
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In this story, perhaps it's the element of Bodhichitta. How many people can make such decision? To spare the life of another and exchange theirs for someone else to live? How many would? to me, this person is not an ordinary person. I think the point of this teaching is about compassion, is about not causing harm to the point of loosing our own.
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This story kinda make people think. How can one take his own life and be reborn an arhat? Like DSfriend have said earlier, I think it is most probably it's because of the Bodhichitta quality that the butcher's son possess.
The son thought to himself, "If I kill this sheep, then I will[be compelled to] pursue this occupation my entire life. How could I commit this great crime [simply] for the sake of this body?" Then he took up the knife and killed himself.
From the above, it shows that the butcher's son knows very well. If he do as what his parents wishes, then he will be bound to a life of killing. The sheep he was forced to kill will be the beginning of his journey to kill for a living. And since the parents are very adamant that if he does not kill that sheep, he will be locked and starved. He chose to take his life instead of using it to cause pain to others.
I think it is because his motivation was very pure. Which is to save many by sacrificing one (which is himself), hence he attained arhatship.
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Interesting!
I would like to see this scenario in this way where he scarify himself for another being rather than just killing himself. This is Bodhicitta and it’s not just showing how much realization the butcher’s son has and definitely give an impact to their parents that all animals lives are the same precious are human and all beings.
If one sacrifice own live for the benefit of others is wrong then what is dharma practice all about?
Killing oneself to hide from facing own problem that I consider as sin and waste of life. Within my view, suicide is really a kind of cosmic postponement. It is like dropping out of a school that you must graduate from (not like nowadays, when you can drop out for good at 16). If you drop out of the 11th Grade this year, you will be "left back", and have to start in the 11th Grade all over again, next year.
Suicide, I believe, is just like that. If you try to escape from a problem that is tormenting you in this life, you will only have to come back to face the problem, all over again, in another life. And you will not "graduate" until you "pass the lesson", and finally manage to solve the problem in a constructive way.
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I tend to agree with Tenzin there about not sacrificing oneself. With all the teachings about the preciousness of the human life, even though one does not agree with killing, it does not mean that one should commit suicide to avoid harming others. The butcher’s son was born in such circumstances due to his karma. If he did not kill the animal but just stayed in the room, perhaps his parents could have changed their minds and let him out without forcing him to kill. By committing suicide, nobody knows what could have happened if he had not done so.
There are two potential motivations for killing himself:
If he had not committed suicide but waited it out, the worst that could have happened would be that he starved to death, in which case it was not suicide. Of course that would be quite tortuous and perhaps he committed suicide to avoid that suffering in which case the bodhicitta is less because of self-interest of wish to avoid pain.
On the other hand, if I give him the benefit of the doubt, perhaps he thought that by committing suicide, he would alleviate his parents from causing his death because he definitely would not kill that animal. If his parents kept to their promise, he would have starved to death, thus his parents would incur the karma of murder.
I guess we will never know his motivation but the fact that he was born in the heaven shows that his motivation must have been good.
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This is intriguing but I think the stories are not meant to be taken literally but they are to illustrate a point in the teachings. In Buddhism, there are interpretive and definitive teachings. Interpretive teachings are teachings that are meant to illustrate a point and are not meant to be taken literally.
On the other hand, definitive teachings are teachings that can be taken literally or on face value. For me, this story is an interpretive teaching and meant to just illustrate a point in the teachings about the virtue of upholding his precepts.
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I believe there is yet another level of care and compassion illustrated in this story. Firstly, there is the point of not wanting to lead a life of killing and the other more subtle level is the one for his parents. If he accepted his fate and not taken his life, he would have perpetuated his parent to create more negative karma in making their son suffer.
Hence in taking his own life, he spares the lives of those he would have been been forced to kill and ALSO spared his parents from creating more negative karma in imprisoning him and starving him which would have led to death as well.
I think it is the combination of both these selfless motivation that the arhat gained rebirth in the heavens!
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Even if the man is not a srota-aapanna, simply by having a virtue thought and action already illustrated that he is somehow have some attainments and compassion. If not human would see animals as animals and nothing else. This will be caused by imprints of past lives, hence the story illustrated here shown that this being has gain certain realisation hence he made the decision. This is definitely an act of compassion and kindness.
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I have heard that one has no right in taking their own life for this precious life has kindly been given to them by their parents. Most people commit suicide out of pure selfish reasons, for they do not want to further continue taking responsibility of what they have created and choose to end their own suffering by killing themselves. But what many don't realise is that the karma will not be exhausted and whatever realm they take rebirth in, they wil continue to suffer until that karma has been exhausted. Most will take rebirth as in the realm of spirits for they are still attached to their life before ending it in their own hands.
The Butcher's son, having taken his own life and being born into the heavens illustrates that he would have had some kind of attainments and his actions were purely motivated out of pure compassion. In ending his own life, he would not have to sacrifice the many other lives that he would have to if he did kill the sheep, and more sheeps for the rest of his life. It clearly illustrates that all beings to him, are equal. Humans, animals, no one is lesser than the other.
Also, the paragraph that reads:
"The son thought to himself, "If I kill this sheep, then I will[be compelled to] pursue this occupation my entire life. How could I commit this great crime [simply] for the sake of this body?" Then he took up the knife and killed himself."
Shows that he recognizes emptiness, that his current and present body is just a vessel. He recogizes that killing, even of animals, is a great crime. Killing would break one's refuge vow. But even with no Dharma knowledge, the Butcher's son recognizes that killing any being is a big crime.
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This is intriguing but I think the stories are not meant to be taken literally but they are to illustrate a point in the teachings. In Buddhism, there are interpretive and definitive teachings. Interpretive teachings are teachings that are meant to illustrate a point and are not meant to be taken literally.
On the other hand, definitive teachings are teachings that can be taken literally or on face value. For me, this story is an interpretive teaching and meant to just illustrate a point in the teachings about the virtue of upholding his precepts.
So when do we know if a story is a parable or for real? Or is there no reality anyway so it does not matter? E.g. in Christianity, the whole of Genesis is seen by many to be just allegorical. So is the Angulimala story real or just an illustration that even if you have sinned, you can gain attainments? Is Milarepa’s story for real? Birupa? Perhaps there should be a little yellow star next to the stories which are real so we can tell the difference between history and fairytales. Why I think it is important to know if stories are real is so that I can apply the teaching to my daily life.
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Being a arhat who was reincarnated as a butcher's son, he would definitely have some kind of attainments. Taking his own life so that others can live is a virtuous act and could count as bodhichitta. So, when he does that act of committing suicide, he is saving another life. And he did it in a good motivation. This story is to illustrate that by being kind and compassionate and not killing, it will lead you to a better life in the future. This is so that more people will be inspired by the story and follow the example.
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After read this story i wonder that how many people will do the same action, to scarify themselves for others. i only see people kill others in order for themselves to survive.
For me, the person who think and act like this have realize the truth of life and have bodhicitta mind unlike normal people like us.
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Selfless act sacrificing one's life to preserve another in the name of compassions and kindness is a quality of a Boddhisattva. That explains why this man who comitted suicide taken rebirth in heaven as his suicide is not for his selfishness but for the sake of other sentient being's welfare.
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He was reborn in the heavens because he died with a wonderful motivation. People who kill themselves just because they feel depressed or got dumped by a girlfriend go to the hell realms because they have died by their own hand with non-virtuous motivations. Also, there are not many people out there who have to compassion to lose his or her own life for the sake of other sentient beings.
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I read a story about the Butcher's son which goes like this:
There once was a man who was a srota- aapanna born into the family of a butcher. He was on the threshhold of adulthood. Although he was expected to pursue his household occupation, he was unable to kill animals. His father and mother gave him a knife and a sheep and shut him up in a room, telling him, "If you do not kill the sheep, we will not allow you to come out and see the sun or the moon or to have the food and drink to survive."
The son thought to himself, "If I kill this sheep, then I will[be compelled to] pursue this occupation my entire life. How could I commit this great crime [simply] for the sake of this body?" Then he took up the knife and killed himself. The father and mother opened the door to look. The sheep was standing to one side whereas the son was [laying there], already expired.
At that time, when he killed himself, he was born in the heavens. If one is like this, then this amounts to not sparing [even one's own] life in safeguarding [the integrity of] the pure precepts.
End Notes: A srota-aapanna is a first- stage arhat, otherwise known as a "stream-winner."
If killing is prohibited in all forms, how come the butcher son was born into the heavens? Although his motivation is pure, that he wishes not to pursue a life killing animals, however, taking his own life is also considered killing and karma is formed regardless.
A sottapana is an individual that already has some realizations and is considered to have attainments in the Buddha's paths. As such, there is no way that people who are this can ever commit something negative. It is said that a sottapana is promised enlightenment within 14 lifetimes in samsara (as an arahat), and therefore his choice to commit suicide is entirely so that he can escape a lifetime of killing and not practicing Dharma, and therefore, it is a meritorious action.
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After read this story i wonder that how many people will do the same action, to scarify themselves for others. i only see people kill others in order for themselves to survive.
For me, the person who think and act like this have realize the truth of life and have bodhicitta mind unlike normal people like us.
You made a very nice point here. Not many people would actually recognize that killing an animal itself would be wrong, especially a Butcher's son when he has been brought up in such an environment that conditions him to think that killing is good... after all, it is their way of life which provides for the family.
The very fact that the son of the butcher realize that killing is wrong and refused to live a life of killing... come to think of it, it is very extraordinary by itself. He must be one that has great insights into life, or at least good morale.
However, at the back of my mind, I think that there is always a way to get out of a certain situation. Just like how Buddha himself left the palace to seek enlightenment despite his parent's refusal, he ran away. He never gave up or killed himself... which would be very devastating. So I was wondering if he could perhaps tried to run away or just refuse to kill the animal and die naturally.
What do you think the reason is that he did not just sat at one side of the room and should he have died because his parents refuse to let him out, at least it's not caused by him killing himself? Why? Is it because he fear his mind will not be strong enough to resist killing the sheep at certain point of time being in that room? What are your thoughts?
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Being devil's advocate... Perhaps the butcher's son could have just run off instead of killing himself. Would that then spare his the negative karma of taking his own life? Yes I believe there is still negative karma in taking one's own life regardless of motivation. Perhaps the negativity is not that strong but it is wrong nevertheless.
So my point is, if he had not taken his life and ran off instead, would he still have gone to the "heavens" if he lived out his natural life? Perhaps he could have practiced more and gained more attainments and hence actually gain enlightenment in that life. He was an arhat after all... There are many variants that I can think of which would have served a better choice... What does everyone think?
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By purely maintaining the precepts even at the cost of ones life such merit compels you to a higher rebirth.
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By purely maintaining the precepts even at the cost of ones life such merit compels you to a higher rebirth.
If I remember correctly that in the Lamrim it states that the cause to take a positive human rebirth requires one to have morality or one that is able to hold one's vows and commitments. So, it means that if one were to uphold our vows and commitments every day, we create a stream of positive merit to take good human rebirth and not just as a human but one that has all the endowments and conditions to practice the Dharma. If one already has problems upholding the little vows that we have, then don't think we would be human in our next life.
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The story of the butcher's son really made me think of many aspects of life and the path we choose to travel on.
Taking another life is a sin and so is taking one's own life.
The butcher's son had the positive karma to be born as a human being, and being born as a sottapana - had the many virtues in him especially Compassion. He knew that once he killed the sheep, he would be expected to continue killing and taking many more lives. At that point of time, he would probably think it would be better to sacrifice his own life (which is one life ) than to take the lives of many.
However , if he could show his parents that he would rather die (as in starving himself), in time, the parents might relent and understand the son's motivation. And perhaps , hopefully, understand that being a butcher is the wrong livelihood.
No parent would want to cause their child any suffering. With determination, reasoning and compassion on the son's part, he could change his parent's threats to supporting him in his belief. He did not have to take his own life to make a point - poignant as it is. And it makes me wonder what sort of karma his parents now have accumulated - carrying the guilt and grief for their rest of their lives.
I do not know if there is a 'heaven or a hell'. But in my simplistic mind , i believe that it depends on the moment of death in that person's mind. If he passes on with peace in his mind, having attained and accumulated good merits and karma in his lifetime - then he 'goes to heaven'. If he has inner turmoil , bringing with him all the negative thoughts and karma that he had committed - then he 'goes to hell '.
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I am not sure if circumstances justify suicide but when I first started learning about Buddhism, I heard sad news that a friend had taken his own life. This made me ask about suicide in the context of Buddhism. I registered that if you take your own life you will go to the hell realm. Therefore one does not got to heaven from suicide.
I read this:
All religions:"Suicide is eternal solution for temporary problems"
Buddhism:"Suicide is temporary solution for eternal problems"
I guess it covers what I think... check out others' conversation on Buddhist Views on Suicide
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101017045055AAloBCK (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101017045055AAloBCK)
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Just to add to the conversation - what is topical in the Tibetan diaspora now is the number of self-immolations in Tibet. These monks and some lay people committed suicide out of their belief to make a stance for Tibet's independence and the return of HH the Dalai Lama. If we look at it superficially - their purpose is not for themselves, so is it a bodhicitta motivation? I actually do not think so because their motivation is for a piece of land - or politics.. it is not to save a life.
If the motivation for suicide is not based on a bodhicitta motivation, would these people who committed self-immolation have a good rebirth or a negative one?