dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: beggar on August 06, 2012, 04:06:44 PM
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It seems Robert Thurman has a few skeletons in his closet... and there are a few new articles up on the website about him.
Most interesting is this one, below, about how he is known to have begged for Dorje Shugden initiation from several very prominent lamas and how they promptly denied him, due to his fickle nature. This is certainly interesting, considering his very pro-Dalai Lama stance and the considerable rudeness and lack of support he has shown towards Shugden practitioners in recent times.
How sad times have become that one of the leader scholars and writers on Tibetan Buddhism and someone so publicly close to the Dalai Lama has displayed such discouraging, fickle behaviour towards Shugden practitioners. Is this how Buddhists (and a former monk!) acts towards fellow Buddhists?
Share your thoughts - what do you think of Robert Thurman?
THE TWO FACES OF ROBERT THURMAN
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/the-two-faces-of-robert-thurman/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/the-two-faces-of-robert-thurman/)
Anyone interested in the subjects of Tibetan Buddhism and the Dalai Lama will know of Robert Thurman, a self-professed “personal friend” of the Dalai Lama and prolific writer about the Dalai Lama and his teachings.
In light of the Dorje Shugden issue over the last decade or so, Robert Thurman has remained significantly quiet on the subject, refusing to answer any open letters to him nor engage in debate. He is even known to have launched accusations against Dorje Shugden practitioners, calling them Chinese spies. He seems to be very stoically on the side of the Dalai Lama, and not at all empathetic to the plight of Shugden practitioners suffering under the ban.
Now, we learn that in fact, Thurman was known to have “begged” very prominent high Lamas for Dorje Shugden initiation.
In his paper, “Dalai Lama Dorje Shugden”*, respected translator Helmut Gassner – who worked very closely with the Dalai Lama as his translator for many years – recalls,
"For his part, Robert Thurman thought it appropriate to portray for Newsweek magazine a murderous Dorje Shugden cult describing it as “the Taliban of Buddhism.” Yet Robert Thurman, presumably before he begot Uma, had been one of the first Western monks with Buddhist vows and had tried twice to obtain Dorje Shugden initiation from revered masters well before the controversy began. Both masters, however, had refused on grounds of his fickle character. Thurman should know quite well what Dorje Shugden actually is about."
(It is interesting to note also that Robert Thurman was one of the first Westerners to have been ordained as a monk in the Tibetan tradition. However, he was also among the first to disrobe, returning his vows only 2 years after taking them. Fickle? It certainly seems so.)
An online commentator and former supporter of the Dalai Lama who goes by the moniker “Thomas Canada” further confirms that these Lamas who denied Thurman the initiation were the renowned Dromo Geshe Rinpoche and Gelek Rinpoche. He writes,
"Gelek told me […] that Thurman even begged him, and it was no. For however that is decided. [Dr. Ursula Bernis] (personal attendant to Dromo Geshe Rinpoche) told me Dromo Geshe Rinpoche denied Bob several times. [She told me] that Bob used to push and connive for the Empowerment and he was always denied. Dromo Geshe said, Bob crawled across his floor begging and crying for it and he told him no way.”"
Interestingly, it wasn’t that these lamas had denied everyone the initiation. Thomas Canada himself reveals that he had received the initiation, along with other prominent personalities at the time, such as poet Alan Ginsberg. Also, these lamas did have close connections with Thurman; they were not just lamas that he met in passing.
For example. Dromo Geshe Rinpoche founded the New York and New Delhi Tibet House and Thurman is very much involved in running the New York branch. So their decision not to have given him the initiation cannot have been an arbitrary one, but one they made in full knowledge of how Thurman is or how he would maintain the practice.
Observing the way he now behaves towards Dorje Shugden practitioners, it is clear why the lamas had refused him the initiation “on grounds of his fickle character”. Would he have done even more harm if he had been given the initiation? Perhaps. And if he did, he would have damaged both his own spiritual path and the faith of the many thousands who read his books and follow his writings.
The information in this article was extracted from the blog http://robertthurman.wordpress.com (http://robertthurman.wordpress.com) For more interesting reads on the subject, please visit the blog directly.
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Other articles:
Robert Thurman meets Kelsang Pema (and is extremely rude to her): http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/robert-thurman-meets-kelsang-pema/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/robert-thurman-meets-kelsang-pema/)
An open letter to Robert Thurman (and how he never answered it): http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/an-open-letter-to-robert-thurman/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/an-open-letter-to-robert-thurman/)
Robert Thurman: American monk or Tibetan puppet: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/robert-thurman-american-monk-or-tibetan-puppet/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/robert-thurman-american-monk-or-tibetan-puppet/)
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I find this more entertaining than plausible. I mean Bob Thurman crawling across the floor begging for Dhogyal empowerment? Does that really sound real?
How do you know Bob crawled across the floor? Canada or whoever said so? Just on the basis of one person saying so and it becomes so? Gotta think harder people. I don't buy it. Sorry. :(
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It wasn't just one person, as you will see in the article. It was also the very credible Helmut Gassner who spoke about Thurman wanting initiation and being denied it.
Here is the quote again:
"For his part, Robert Thurman thought it appropriate to portray for Newsweek magazine a murderous Dorje Shugden cult describing it as “the Taliban of Buddhism.” Yet Robert Thurman, presumably before he begot Uma, had been one of the first Western monks with Buddhist vows and had tried twice to obtain Dorje Shugden initiation from revered masters well before the controversy began. Both masters, however, had refused on grounds of his fickle character. Thurman should know quite well what Dorje Shugden actually is about."
And you can read the full paper "Dalai Lama Dorje Shugden" here: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/articles/HelmutGassner01.pdf (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/articles/HelmutGassner01.pdf)
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I find this more entertaining than plausible. I mean Bob Thurman crawling across the floor begging for Dhogyal empowerment? Does that really sound real?
How do you know Bob crawled across the floor? Canada or whoever said so? Just on the basis of one person saying so and it becomes so? Gotta think harder people. I don't buy it. Sorry. :(
Well, the point is that Thurman had requested Dorje Shugden practice several times and was denied the practice. Now, we know why. He had obviously been denied the practice due to his character and he wouldn't be able to hold the strict commitments of Dorje Shugden. It would be doubly bad if he went back on his commitments on Dorje Shugden as what he is doing right now. What would be interesting to hear from him when the Dorje Shugden ban is lifted. What kinda statement is he going to issue about his mistaken view of Dorje Shugden at that time?
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I find this more entertaining than plausible. I mean Bob Thurman crawling across the floor begging for Dhogyal empowerment? Does that really sound real?
How do you know Bob crawled across the floor? Canada or whoever said so? Just on the basis of one person saying so and it becomes so? Gotta think harder people. I don't buy it. Sorry. :(
Well, the point is that Thurman had requested Dorje Shugden practice several times and was denied the practice. Now, we know why. He had obviously been denied the practice due to his character and he wouldn't be able to hold the strict commitments of Dorje Shugden. It would be doubly bad if he went back on his commitments on Dorje Shugden as what he is doing right now. What would be interesting to hear from him when the Dorje Shugden ban is lifted. What kinda statement is he going to issue about his mistaken view of Dorje Shugden at that time?
I think more than just keeping his commitments, his motivation behind begging for the empowerment is definitely questionable which makes it so hard for him to even receive such an important empowerment. If you read this person well, he is just using HHDL's name and fame together with Tibetan Buddhism to make his name.
Buddhism is more than just a scholarly approach, when the highest of the high's teachings are involved, it is about LIFE! It is about living the Dharma and not using it for selfish reasons.
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Well, well well! This is an interesting discovery about Robert Thurman. He has wrote so many books about Buddhism but unfortunately, he also wrote a lot of not so nice things about Dorje Shugden as well, and the worst part of them all is that the materials that he has written against Dorje Shugden were based on lies and twisted interpretations. Just because he was denied the initiations, he reacted so badly and went on the Dalai Lama's camp on the whole thing. Imagine if he got the initiation and he betrayed Dorje Shugden after that. Imagine the magnitude of his negative karma when that happens. In reality, the Lamas who denied him is very kind because they do not want him to suffer the consequences of broken samaya. What I still find it hard to believe is how he wanted Dorje Shugden so badly and then can write lies about Dorje Shugden a few years later. He also has a huge hand in spreading the rumor of Pabongkha Rinpoche being sectarian and he was the same person who played up the rumor regarding the incident where Pabongkha Rinpoche's students threw Guru Rinpoche's statues in to the river. Wow! And he wants a Dorje Shugden initiation?! Talk about flippant.
For Dalai Lama supporters, this might sound hard to stomach, but based on his flippant history such as giving up the vows of a monk after just a mere two years, all of these sounds so plausible. And to imagine bob crawling on the floor, requesting for the initiation when it has been denied is rather hilarious, but I guess it just shows how desperate he is to collect initiations and practices as if they were buttons or stamps. That's a very wrong reason to do Dorje Shugden or to have his initiation in the first place. I dont think Dorje Shugden's requirements are strict at all, if you would want success and results in Dharma practice that is and not just someone who just wants empowerments and initiations to fill up a void of insecurity. I wouldnt take any initiation for that reason, and perhaps out of compassion the other Lamas obliged, but not the real Dorje Shugden Lamas who really care about Dharma practice. Too bad, bob. go get more initiations because you wont get any results from them.
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Having read the articles on Robert Thurman on this website, I can only conclude that his harsh and unsubstantiated condemnation of Shugden practitioners(in particular members of the Western Shugden Society) as "Buddhist Talibans" and "spies of the Chinese", are politically motivated. As he has refused to show evidence to support these wild claims, he can be proclaimed a liar. Being a liar, he has broken his basic Refuge commitments of 'not lying' and 'not speaking harsh words'.
I also find it most unexceptable and disturbing that he(who had been a monk of two years) should speak to a Sangha member, like Kelsang Pema, so harshly. How could he have harshly told off Kelsang Pema(a nun and member of the Western Shugden Society, engaged in a peaceful protest), using words like:" You ought to be ashamed of yourself" and "You're funded by the Chinese" ? This amounts to violating the Refuge Vows. Furthermore, when Kelsang Pema asked him for proof of his accusation that they were funded by the Chinese, his response was so ridiculous: "You use the same terminology as the Chinese like "feudalism" and " theocracy"!
It's most worrying that an academician of renown, holding the position of Je Tsongkapa Professor of Indo-Tibetan Buddhism, and an acclaimed writer of many books on Buddhism, has made inflammatory remarks against Shugden practitioners. He has the effrontery to make these remarks publicly to the Newsweek magazine , which has a worldwide circulation. Yet, he refuses to respond to the open letter from the Western Shugden Society requesting him to substantiate his wild remarks with evidence.
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Having read the articles on Robert Thurman on this website, I can only conclude that his harsh and unsubstantiated condemnation of Shugden practitioners(in particular members of the Western Shugden Society) as "Buddhist Talibans" and "spies of the Chinese", are politically motivated. As he has refused to show evidence to support these wild claims, he can be proclaimed a liar. Being a liar, he has broken his basic Refuge commitments of 'not lying' and 'not speaking harsh words'.
It is sad that mr bob does not hesitate to say nasty things to others under the pretext that people who "broke" the refuge vows (according to the inji view of Dorje Shugden people ) so people who broke their vows are suddenly not humans and does not deserve to be treated like one? As a learned scholar of Buddhism, such behavior is shameful indeed.
I also find it most unexceptable and disturbing that he(who had been a monk of two years) should speak to a Sangha member, like Kelsang Pema, so harshly. How could he have harshly told off Kelsang Pema(a nun and member of the Western Shugden Society, engaged in a peaceful protest), using words like:" You ought to be ashamed of yourself" and "You're funded by the Chinese" ? This amounts to violating the Refuge Vows. Furthermore, when Kelsang Pema asked him for proof of his accusation that they were funded by the Chinese, his response was so ridiculous: "You use the same terminology as the Chinese like "feudalism" and " theocracy"!
The very fact that he could only hold his monk vows for a mere two years speaks volumes of his person. It shows that he is a flippant person who is unable to hold vows of any capacity. And the fact that so many high lamas denied him the Dorje Shugden initiation should tell you a bit on his persona, character and spiritual attainments. I can see how stupid he sounds now...its sad to see a 'scholar' who has written so many books about Buddhism become somewhat of a mere lapdog to the Dalai Lama. I dont think thats what the Dalai Lama wants...and i bet HHDL is very disappointed with that statement. He could have done better than accusing people of being funded by the chinese. Lets see if the Chinese government allows him to go to china now for his 'research'. lol.
It's most worrying that an academician of renown, holding the position of Je Tsongkapa Professor of Indo-Tibetan Buddhism, and an acclaimed writer of many books on Buddhism, has made inflammatory remarks against Shugden practitioners. He has the effrontery to make these remarks publicly to the Newsweek magazine , which has a worldwide circulation. Yet, he refuses to respond to the open letter from the Western Shugden Society requesting him to substantiate his wild remarks with evidence.
Bob thurman seems more like the archetypical inji with a crusader complex that behaves that he is the savior of the tibetans and its culture, and therefore whatever they say must be right. I dont know, it is a very sad thing for me to see, i dont mean to be disrespectful but it does appear to be that way for these 'scholars'. I find it very disappointing that such intellectual people can go down to that level.
Gosh! I did not know about that incident with bob thurman. disappointing indeed. I mean, what kind of samaya can he possibly have now anymore since he has done so many damaging things to his own lineage gurus? I am very sure that the Dalai Lama will not go that route or teach his students to do that, so it must be out of bob's own will.
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hi everyone,
yes, it's quite surprising to read these and to think that this kind of contrary character is one of the leading authorities in Buddhist writing today. I'm not sure if you're aware that there's another article on the website about an open letter that was written to Thurman, and his blatant disregard of it, he made no response to it. It can be read here:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/an-open-letter-to-robert-thurman/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/an-open-letter-to-robert-thurman/)
I suppose we can't really expect him come out, guns blazing, in support of Shugden practitioners, seeing how much of a Dalai Lama supporter he is, but as such a respected authority in the Tibetan Buddhist world (especially in the west), you'd hope that he would at least give a response on the matter. It is a big issue, after all.
Thurman aside though, this thread calls up the much larger, more serious issue of stability in our practice. It is more surprising than anything to hear of how fickle Thurman is in his practices. The fact that he would beg for a practice and later turn around and insult people pursuing that very practice is reflection enough of where he stands, his devotion to his teachers (or lack of it) and how far he will or won't get in his practice. He may choose now to NOT pursue Shugden's practice for whatever reasons he has (he hadn't received initiation, so we presume there had not been any commitments and therefore nothing broken in his choice not to practice). But I also believe there are ways to respond to this situation and Shugden practitioners with kindness and empathy, not in the rude and dismissive ways he has. As the article asks, is this how someone of such "authority" within Buddhist communities would treat a fellow Buddhist? It is sad times, and it seems that we're fulfilling Buddha's prophecy, that Buddhism will destroy from within, not without
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hi everyone,
yes, it's quite surprising to read these and to think that this kind of contrary character is one of the leading authorities in Buddhist writing today. I'm not sure if you're aware that there's another article on the website about an open letter that was written to Thurman, and his blatant disregard of it, he made no response to it. It can be read here:
[url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/an-open-letter-to-robert-thurman/[/url] ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/an-open-letter-to-robert-thurman/[/url])
I suppose we can't really expect him come out, guns blazing, in support of Shugden practitioners, seeing how much of a Dalai Lama supporter he is, but as such a respected authority in the Tibetan Buddhist world (especially in the west), you'd hope that he would at least give a response on the matter. It is a big issue, after all.
I dont expect him to do that either, but I do expect him to at least be neutral about the whol issue. That is the very least he can do. Glenn Mullin has been neutral about Dorje Shugden in all of his works, why cant bob? Glenn did not distort anything at all in his papers and works, and even shows support for Pabongkha Rinpoche. Neutrality is a very important quality for a scholar as a scholar who is not neutral is just another propaganda writer.
Thurman aside though, this thread calls up the much larger, more serious issue of stability in our practice. It is more surprising than anything to hear of how fickle Thurman is in his practices. The fact that he would beg for a practice and later turn around and insult people pursuing that very practice is reflection enough of where he stands, his devotion to his teachers (or lack of it) and how far he will or won't get in his practice. He may choose now to NOT pursue Shugden's practice for whatever reasons he has (he hadn't received initiation, so we presume there had not been any commitments and therefore nothing broken in his choice not to practice). But I also believe there are ways to respond to this situation and Shugden practitioners with kindness and empathy, not in the rude and dismissive ways he has. As the article asks, is this how someone of such "authority" within Buddhist communities would treat a fellow Buddhist? It is sad times, and it seems that we're fulfilling Buddha's prophecy, that Buddhism will destroy from within, not without
In any case, like what you have mentioned, instability in Dharma practice is the cancer that is killing Buddhism. coupled with new age beliefs that it is allright to switch traditions and Gurus anytime whenever you want and when you're not happy, and the CTA (sadly) supporting that notion/belief, the world will see no non tibetan practitioners sooner or later. Samadhi is the development of stability in the mind, and it also happens to be core and crux of any tradition in Buddhism. The very fact that thurman lacks it shows us that his teachings should not be taken seriously.
However the case, it still shows how flippant and unstable bob thurman is, both as a dharma practitioner and as a person. He can be convincing as a writer, but whether or not his words will actually benefit people or confuse people more would be a different story.
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One would think a scholar like Robert Thurman has the intelligence and knowledge to understand the whole issue surrounding HH Dalai Lama’s ban on Dorje Shugden. We do not need a rocket scientist’s analysis to understand that His Holiness and CTA are totally wrong about the ban. Instead Robert had chosen to go against Dorje Shugden and Dorje Shugden practitioners. This is unbelievable! Robert Thurman had remained silent even when challenged by Shugden supporters like Thomas Canada. This shows that either he has no grounds to defend his stand on this issue or he is being political by favouring his good friend His Holiness Dalai Lama.
Robert Thurman's integrity is at stake now. He will lose his career a Tibetan scholar! When the truth prevails, i.e. when the ban on Dorje Shugden is lifted,
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I completely agree that Robert Thurman’s anti-Shugden stance is political. He is blatantly a Dalai Lama sycophant and clearly has no basis to support the ban. There can be no other reason because the ban has no basis. No intellectual or academician of note would be able to substantiate the reasons for the ban because there are no concrete reasons. As a result, those critical of Dorje Shugden, like Thurman, have to resort to childish behaviour such as name-calling. The Chinese spy allegations are really ridiculous and it is about time the anti-Shugden gang come up with new and original ideas.
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I completely agree that Robert Thurman’s anti-Shugden stance is political. He is blatantly a Dalai Lama sycophant and clearly has no basis to support the ban. There can be no other reason because the ban has no basis. No intellectual or academician of note would be able to substantiate the reasons for the ban because there are no concrete reasons. As a result, those critical of Dorje Shugden, like Thurman, have to resort to childish behaviour such as name-calling. The Chinese spy allegations are really ridiculous and it is about time the anti-Shugden gang come up with new and original ideas.
You're right. both thurman and dreyfus were great scholars, they did publish much material about Tibetan Buddhism and they did expose the world to Tibetan Buddhism, but it is extremely unfortunate that they would resort to name calling and the presentation of warped facts in order to 'prove' their point. Thurman uses name calling, while dreyfus passes off lies and opinions as facts. How can any scholar do such a thing? Scholars are supposed to uphold the truth and facts, so why are they doing such a thing!! This goes against the very basis of scholars. It is sad to see how scholars degenerate into mindless drones who can no longer think straight and think in a neutral way. Perhaps, for thurman to be that unstable, all that he wanted was just some recognition and love from some high lama around and for that he was willing to sell out his beliefs, as we have noticed.
No one else can come up with any new and fresh material to support the ban, because the ban itself was based on a net of lies and distortions. Fresh material would most probably be more lies and insubstantial facts that people can easily debase, as a result, these 'scholars' will need to come up with more and more believable information the next time until the point where they can no longer come up with anything or talk about anything at all and they have reach that point now. Whatever fresh material they can come up with is probably from a twisting of some historical facts, or the words of a previous master and they will ruin their own credibility. They already have by indulging into the Dalai Lama's camp and fabricating lies for the Dalai Lama. I would never take anything these two people write about Dorje Shugden seriously.
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These articles are very credible. Especially the the accounts from Helmut Gassner. Robert Thurman is one of the person many westerners including myself regarded as a credible Dharma teacher. So knowing the way he disparaged Dorje Shugden practitioners is really shocking and disappointing. I remembered in one of talk, he said the way to see if a Dharma practitioner is really practicing well; as a way to check ourselves, is the impact Dharma has change our lives. Disparaging others' religion, beliefs and practices is certainly not something with can associate with any goodness or positive change that we want from Dharma practice and certainly not from a Dharma teacher.
The irony is that , one of the reason the HHDL banned the practice is because of sectarianism. But people like Bob, are creating exactly this. Who is the Taliban here?
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Dear All
I have been thinking of the Robert Thurman’s issue for several days now. It is very intriquing to see that this person who have been an authoritative figure, academics, and wrote several books about Tibetan Buddhism pictured DS practitioners in such a way. He, as a scholar sshould have used his senses to investigate the matter better.
However, this is my view of the whole situation. Please do not let this man’s statements about DS practitioners completely destroy his credibility and undermine his other work.
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I used to find bob's work very helpful and informative, but his work has always been dry and he relies on too many words to convey a simple meaning, until i found out about him mongering rumors against Dorje Shugden...
(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/24873987.jpg)
Like I have said in a previous post, it does affect my view of his other works because it shows that he is biased and a scholar that only knows half the story. What if his other works happen to be mistranslated information, or inaccurate information as a result of his laziness and unwillingness to view things from different perspectives and cross checking them to make sure if they are correct? Would you want to be misled by such information? would his information still be credible if it was the result of ill research? I certainly do not want to read works that lack depth and that lacks neutrality or are lopsided because i prefer to know the full story, to see the big picture of things rather than just one angle of it. That is what science is about and that is what Buddhism is about, when the Buddha speaks of the ultimate/relative truth, the Buddha meant about seeing the world from an unbiased point of view, as opposed to seeing it from our point of view alone. This is what I understand from all the studying that I have done, so for that reason, I do not like to read about works that lacks neutrality as it also means that the source of the work might not be accurate either.
I dont know about you, but I would not take a scholar that can write very well about Buddhism and its philosophies on paper but whose attitude and behavior does not reflect what he writes at all seriously. It is just hard. too hard.
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Robert Thurman is one piece of work. He must be with split personalities. Seriously, how can one person who is so learned in Buddhism and good "pals" with the Dalai Lama not have learnt anything about SPEECH! I will not even question about compassion and kindness. After all he did disrobe and return his vows. On this fact, his books should be doomed, then again many exploit the ignorant ones who are simply in pursuit of Buddhism. If only they knew what happens on the other side of his brain.
Robert Thurman should write a book entitled "Self-Reflection: Results of an Un-Transformed Mind"
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Poor Robert Thurman... perhaps he has taken the rejection too personally and held a grudge for what else could some one who has logic and a deep thinkier could have such selective and politically view that is down right against any human rights and ethics in which I am certain someone of his intellect and coming from the land of "freedom" would have known. But for him to talk in such a childish manner towards Dorje Shugden practitioners sure seems like an old man who had a grudge! What ekse could it be for someone of his caliber?
Boy thank goodness he did not receive Dorje Shugden practice. Thank goodness for Gelek and Dromo Geshe Rinpoche's foresight in his character!
This has certainly made me think twice about reading his books now as I have lost a bit of respect for his credibility and though he may be a good writer. Sorry but Thurman could have been more skillful in expressing him self even if he had no choice but to be seen as being on the Dalai Lama's side... certainly name calling is something quite immature for him. Hence this clearly shows that he is certainly does not take in the Dharma as a practice!
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Robert Thurman is one piece of work. He must be with split personalities. Seriously, how can one person who is so learned in Buddhism and good "pals" with the Dalai Lama not have learnt anything about SPEECH! I will not even question about compassion and kindness. After all he did disrobe and return his vows. On this fact, his books should be doomed, then again many exploit the ignorant ones who are simply in pursuit of Buddhism. If only they knew what happens on the other side of his brain.
Robert Thurman should write a book entitled "Self-Reflection: Results of an Un-Transformed Mind"
Dear Diamond Girl
Your statement is quite interesting. You mentioned that it is surprising that Robert who is a good friend of HHDL, has not learned about SPEECH... Hehehe... HHDL has also been contradictory and made many false accusation about DS. HHDL is the initiator of all this. From the way I see it, Robert Thurman is only a fickle personality who follow his Guru. There are many like him. The only difference is, Robert happened to be a rather high profile scholar.
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Robert Thurman is one piece of work. He must be with split personalities. Seriously, how can one person who is so learned in Buddhism and good "pals" with the Dalai Lama not have learnt anything about SPEECH! I will not even question about compassion and kindness. After all he did disrobe and return his vows. On this fact, his books should be doomed, then again many exploit the ignorant ones who are simply in pursuit of Buddhism. If only they knew what happens on the other side of his brain.
Robert Thurman should write a book entitled "Self-Reflection: Results of an Un-Transformed Mind"
Maybe its not split personalities, but a weak mind. only someone who has a weak mind can be so easily influenced and swayed. Which brings us the question: how can such a well established scholar that can explain all the philosophies and tenets so well be this weak and fickle? Does it still make sense in some way because if someone like that can talk so much about the teachings and be a celebrated scholar yet has such an unstable mind, does it mean that Lord Buddha's teachings are ineffective? Does it mean that the Dalai Lama has failed in being an effective teacher? If the Dalai Lama is Chenrenzig and a very highly acclaimed teacher, then his teachings are effective, and what bob is just a very bad representation of the Dalai Lama if this is the case. He should really be checking his conduct and be more worried about his body, speech and mind to reflect the Dalai Lama well instead of acting like an immature court jester who is only around to make the Dalai Lama happy and write propaganda material instead of real Dharma. I guess having the best lama in the world does not save oneself from samsara, nor does it equal to spiritual progress.
In a way, however it is, his writing might be technical, but if you really read about what he writes, it is very very dry. It feels as though he is writing a textbook and not a Dharma book. There is no feeling, but only facts and probably some opinions or two or it. IN Helmut Gassner's article, he mentions that the Dalai Lama will first give the person a hug and then persuade them to give up Dorje Shugden. HHDL's hug is very powerful and it floods the person with love and it can be very overwhelming, according to Helmut Gassner, and perhaps this is what made bob turn tail as he thought that this is what he is looking for and this is what he wants. But in doing so, he becomes the Dalai Lama's lapdog instead of a scholar that helps bring people's minds to Buddhism and to dispel the ignorance of people. In a way, it is sad to see how people degenerate due to incorrect motivation.
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I find this more entertaining than plausible. I mean Bob Thurman crawling across the floor begging for Dhogyal empowerment? Does that really sound real?
How do you know Bob crawled across the floor? Canada or whoever said so? Just on the basis of one person saying so and it becomes so? Gotta think harder people. I don't buy it. Sorry. :(
Very quick to criticise, and it seems you didnt read the article properly before condemning the information. Well, what will you say next?
All I have to say on this matter is - if Robert Thurman can now criticise and condemn the practice of a deity he once begged for, no wonder he didnt get the initiation on the grounds of his fickle mind! His lamas - domo geshe rinpoche and gelek rinpoche would have the foresight to know what was coming, and to deny him.
Dorje Shugden's practice has a few requirements, among which are Guru Devotion, practice of the Lam Rim, holding one's vows and so forth. I dont think Bob Thurman is a good example of any of the above, seeing as he is a politically-motivated, disrespectful, fickle-minded ex-monk. Dorje Shugden is too special to be held by the likes as he.
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Very quick to criticise, and it seems you didnt read the article properly before condemning the information. Well, what will you say next?
All I have to say on this matter is - if Robert Thurman can now criticise and condemn the practice of a deity he once begged for, no wonder he didnt get the initiation on the grounds of his fickle mind! His lamas - domo geshe rinpoche and gelek rinpoche would have the foresight to know what was coming, and to deny him.
If he can do this to Dorje Shugden whose empowerment he once begged for, he could easily do this to the Dalai Lama and turn against him if and when he does not get what he wants. I think he would do something like that despite having written so many buddhist books as instability is more or less, pervasive. he clearly does not have what it takes to have any Buddhist initiations for that matter, and perhaps the Lamas who confer them to him is doing it just to plant seeds in his mindstream.
Dorje Shugden's practice has a few requirements, among which are Guru Devotion, practice of the Lam Rim, holding one's vows and so forth. I dont think Bob Thurman is a good example of any of the above, seeing as he is a politically-motivated, disrespectful, fickle-minded ex-monk. Dorje Shugden is too special to be held by the likes as he.
Being that and a scholar is not that bad if he kept his facts neutral and showed a good example, and have unbiased facts that are not twisted stories. Unfortunately he is part of the team of crusaders that writes lies about Dorje Shugden and the passes it for the truth. That is one of the most horrible thing that a scholar can ever do as it creates confusion, fear and promotes ignorance. Very sad that a scholar has degenerated into this.
What more is there to say about bob thurman after his interesting expose? I dont think that he has come up with any new info about DS, or any new Buddhist titles recently either. I doubt that China will allow him to enter China after what happened. He can only go to Dharamsala to do his research and nowhere else. This will be interesting to see if he would actually come up with his next title anytime soon..
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Bob Thurman begged for Dorje Shugden empowerment not surprising at all, I mean before the ban got enforced anyone who is anyone and everyone did the Dorje Shugden practice happily and on large scale too. The lama that Robert Thurman asked the Dorje Shugden empowerment from would have known that if things got too hot for Robert Thurman he would have cracked and given up the practice. For the monks to deny his the chance to practice Dorje Shugden is to save Bob Thurman from serious broken samaya later. How compassionate were his teachers to deny him the life entrustment.
Not very convinced about his scholastic abilities, there is overwhelming evidence to support Dorje Shugden is enligthened and a Buddha and he chooses to look at the criticism of Dorje Shugden.
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Dear All
I have been thinking of the Robert Thurman’s issue for several days now. It is very intriquing to see that this person who have been an authoritative figure, academics, and wrote several books about Tibetan Buddhism pictured DS practitioners in such a way. He, as a scholar sshould have used his senses to investigate the matter better.
However, this is my view of the whole situation. Please do not let this man’s statements about DS practitioners completely destroy his credibility and undermine his other work.
I think most people would have expected a more accurate explanation regarding his statements on Shugden from a such a high profile scholar. If he cannot present the statement he's made with proofs, what made us think it will not not destroy his credibility on his other work?
Wouldn't it be better to not include this material at all rather than to present it without clear evidence with the possibility of causing more confusion from his readers? As a Buddhist scholar, why create more problems rather than to lessen them? For some personal reasons maybe?
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I think most people would have expected a more accurate explanation regarding his statements on Shugden from a such a high profile scholar. If he cannot present the statement he's made with proofs, what made us think it will not not destroy his credibility on his other work?
It is more like people automatically believe whatever a scholar says as they assume that scholars will always be accurate. But the sad part is, bob thurman is not and by this he misled a lot of people with is lies about Dorje Shugden. His words may sound very convincing to ordinary people, but on further investigation, his facts are not accurate and biased, and very misleading. It's a very sad thing for a scholar to do: mislead people instead of educating people.
Wouldn't it be better to not include this material at all rather than to present it without clear evidence with the possibility of causing more confusion from his readers? As a Buddhist scholar, why create more problems rather than to lessen them? For some personal reasons maybe?
That is what all scholars should do, but in thurman's case, he decided to be biased and presented warped facts. It is an extremely sad thing to do and it is very, very dishonorable in more ways than one as a scholar. thurman is the shame of scholars worldwide. Scholars are supposed to enlighten people not mislead people. Why is bob doing something like that? Sad, sad indeed.
We can see that perhaps, Thurman did what he did as he had a grudge against Dorje Shugden because he could not get his practice, so he decided to turn against it. Well, after what he says, he will never ever get Dorje Shugden. He lost his chance and he will never get it again. Too bad for him...the more people he misleads, the worse it gets for him.
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Did you guys read that he would beg Domo Geshe Rinpoche for Dorje Shugden sogtae but he would not be given the initiation. The Lama knew how unstable his mind is. He may be a good scholar but that doesn't mean he is a great practitioner and what's more, he knew the power of Dorje Shugden and he knew what Dorje Shugden is all about and he knew of the great Lamas who practiced Dorje Shugden.
That means that he knew everything about Dorje Shugden and if he knew, why would he be so outspoken against Dorje Shugden? I think he is just bitter about the rejection and he is projecting his frustration over. That's just very sad for him. He will feel like he had placed his foot in his mouth once the ban on Dorje Shugden gets lifted.
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Did you guys read that he would beg Domo Geshe Rinpoche for Dorje Shugden sogtae but he would not be given the initiation. The Lama knew how unstable his mind is. He may be a good scholar but that doesn't mean he is a great practitioner and what's more, he knew the power of Dorje Shugden and he knew what Dorje Shugden is all about and he knew of the great Lamas who practiced Dorje Shugden.
That means that he knew everything about Dorje Shugden and if he knew, why would he be so outspoken against Dorje Shugden? I think he is just bitter about the rejection and he is projecting his frustration over. That's just very sad for him. He will feel like he had placed his foot in his mouth once the ban on Dorje Shugden gets lifted.
I do admit that it was really funny to imagine him begging Domo Geshe Rinpoche, and getting on the floor, begging for Dorje Shugden's sogtae, and then reading on the tripe he wrote about Dorje Shugden, but really, there are more bob thurmans around and we have to be ready to face them. There are people on the net proudly proclaiming that they were once Gelugpa, but they moved on to another lineage for whatever reasons. With little experience and results in their own Dharma practice, they would resort to quoting from texts without much experiential knowledge. If Milarepa could not get any results from practice after he ran away from Marpa, and then seek one of Marpa's students as a teacher, how could any of these people who gave up on their 'original' lineage get any attainments? After knowing the truth about bob, I doubt that he would have any attainments at all either. So why do we listen to someone who has broken their samaya through and through?
If he can give up on Dorje Shugden so easily after learning of his benefits, then for sure he could have given up Buddhism just as easily when the time comes. There is no doubt about that. What struck me the most is that most people who gave up their lineage and who gave up Buddhism are not really educated about Buddhism in the first place and there are many things that they do not know about, but in bob's case, he is a scholar that should know better that Guru devotion is the key to success in tantric practice. By breaking it, there is nothing left for him.
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It would have been so wonderful if world's famous icons who embraces the Tibetan Buddhism would to speak positive of Shugden. Then fame can be turned into something beneficial.
Imagine if such a high scholar such as Thurman would to say and write good things about Shugden, it would have made a difference and clear a lot of people's doubts but instead Thurman chosed use his fame and credibility otherwise and worst to speak negative of Shugden. He is almost like Dalai Lama's shadow. I question if he is acting out of guru disciple relationship! However, I doubt it since he is one of the first Western monk to disrobe after a couple of years after being the first Western monk ordained by the Dalai Lama.
Thurman openly admits that he felt the Dalai Lama was strongly disappointed with him for disrobing. Maybe he is making amends by following the Dalai Lama's footsteps against Shugden?
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It would have been so wonderful if world's famous icons who embraces the Tibetan Buddhism would to speak positive of Shugden. Then fame can be turned into something beneficial.
Imagine if such a high scholar such as Thurman would to say and write good things about Shugden, it would have made a difference and clear a lot of people's doubts but instead Thurman chosed use his fame and credibility otherwise and worst to speak negative of Shugden. He is almost like Dalai Lama's shadow. I question if he is acting out of guru disciple relationship! However, I doubt it since he is one of the first Western monk to disrobe after a couple of years after being the first Western monk ordained by the Dalai Lama.
Thurman openly admits that he felt the Dalai Lama was strongly disappointed with him for disrobing. Maybe he is making amends by following the Dalai Lama's footsteps against Shugden?
Sometimes, the fame that they get is not a result of their good karma. If being flippant can make us famous and acclaimed, then something is very wrong with that picture, dont you think so? So, perhaps, his fame will make him even more unstable and insecure in the near future. It would be nice if he had repent and changed his ways and be more stable now after he has aligned himself with the Dalai Lama, but if he can betray Dorje Shugden like that, he can easily do it to the Dalai Lama too. When the ban is lifted, he will look extremely stupid. I dont know if he would stay by the Dalai Lama when that happens, or he would join another lineage and write nasty things about the Dalai Lama when that happens. Unstable people will always remain unstable and there is always no telling on what they will do.
In 4 years' time, lets see how dear bob will react to the lifting of the ban. Will he give up Buddhism alltogether? will he desert the Dalai Lama. We will see when the time comes.
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I think most people would have expected a more accurate explanation regarding his statements on Shugden from a such a high profile scholar. If he cannot present the statement he's made with proofs, what made us think it will not not destroy his credibility on his other work?
Wouldn't it be better to not include this material at all rather than to present it without clear evidence with the possibility of causing more confusion from his readers? As a Buddhist scholar, why create more problems rather than to lessen them? For some personal reasons maybe?
The facts are there for all to see:
1.
- someone takes the monk's vows
- then renounces them
2.
- later, the same person requests for DS in initiation and is refused it
- he requests again and again and is never granted it
- that person then turns things around and campaigns against the very Buddha that he wanted to surrender to in the first place?????
3.
- the lamas did not need to be clairvoyant to understand that there was a flippancy not suitable to a recipient of a DS initiation. The monk episode was good enough a sign.
- what happened after that person realized that he would not be grated the initiation shows that the lamas were RIGHT not to initiate him.
- and indeed the karma suffered would have been enormous if that person was to receive the initiation and renounce it a few years later.
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I think most people would have expected a more accurate explanation regarding his statements on Shugden from a such a high profile scholar. If he cannot present the statement he's made with proofs, what made us think it will not not destroy his credibility on his other work?
Wouldn't it be better to not include this material at all rather than to present it without clear evidence with the possibility of causing more confusion from his readers? As a Buddhist scholar, why create more problems rather than to lessen them? For some personal reasons maybe?
I think robert thurman just wants to buy favor from the Dalai Lama when he wrote against Dorje Shugden without proof. There is also another writer who writes really bad things against Dorje Shugden that are also untrue: richard dreyfus. Both of them together bring down journalism to a new low: writing fiction and then passing them off as facts in order to mislead people to the direction of their choice. It would be so much better for them to not have written those lies that mislead people, because what they did is confuse and mislead many people.
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I have 2 comments on the initial post:
1. High Lamas really have clairvoyance - they can see it even years before it happens. Like HH Dromo Geshe Rinpoche, who is someone close to Robert Thurman but had refused his request as well;
2. Robert Thurman's later days' objection and hostile actions towards Dorje Shugden practitioners could be motivated by his personal vendetta - his anger for being refused and for jealousy? Only he himself know what is his real motive to behave in that manner...
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I have 2 comments on the initial post:
1. High Lamas really have clairvoyance - they can see it even years before it happens. Like HH Dromo Geshe Rinpoche, who is someone close to Robert Thurman but had refused his request as well;
2. Robert Thurman's later days' objection and hostile actions towards Dorje Shugden practitioners could be motivated by his personal vendetta - his anger for being refused and for jealousy? Only he himself know what is his real motive to behave in that manner...
Hey DS Star, I really agree with you man. I feel that his semi-truthful statements regarding Dorje Shugden is fueled by his anger at being rejected and his generally unstable character. Did you guys know that he was once a monk? I can't remember for how long but he gave that up and started a family. To me, people who gives up the monastic life without much reason is pretty much unstable.
It is really sad and what would he say when the Dalai Lama decides to lift the ban? What Aurore said is also true, if people only knew the truth behind his words right now, how would they view him as a scholar and would they still buy his books and go to his lectures and listen to his speeches. If I was him, I would be careful with what I say about Dorje Shugden because as a scholar, I would know who Dorje Shugden is considering the High Lamas and great practitioners that practice Dorje Shugden.
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I have 2 comments on the initial post:
1. High Lamas really have clairvoyance - they can see it even years before it happens. Like HH Dromo Geshe Rinpoche, who is someone close to Robert Thurman but had refused his request as well;
2. Robert Thurman's later days' objection and hostile actions towards Dorje Shugden practitioners could be motivated by his personal vendetta - his anger for being refused and for jealousy? Only he himself know what is his real motive to behave in that manner...
Hey DS Star, I really agree with you man. I feel that his semi-truthful statements regarding Dorje Shugden is fueled by his anger at being rejected and his generally unstable character. Did you guys know that he was once a monk? I can't remember for how long but he gave that up and started a family. To me, people who gives up the monastic life without much reason is pretty much unstable.
It is really sad and what would he say when the Dalai Lama decides to lift the ban? What Aurore said is also true, if people only knew the truth behind his words right now, how would they view him as a scholar and would they still buy his books and go to his lectures and listen to his speeches. If I was him, I would be careful with what I say about Dorje Shugden because as a scholar, I would know who Dorje Shugden is considering the High Lamas and great practitioners that practice Dorje Shugden.
All I can say is, I feel really sad for bob when the ban is taken down because once it is, he will lose all his credibility and dignity. I dont think that he will have any footing once the ban is lifted, mainly because people will start to doubt whether or not he what he teaches or writes is reliable or not. You're right, Big Uncle, he should be more careful with what he wrote about Dorje Shugden because when people realize it wont be a good thing when they discover that what he writes are very far removed from the truth. that will be a painful zing for bob.
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I completely agree that Robert Thurman’s anti-Shugden stance is political. He is blatantly a Dalai Lama sycophant and clearly has no basis to support the ban. There can be no other reason because the ban has no basis. No intellectual or academician of note would be able to substantiate the reasons for the ban because there are no concrete reasons. As a result, those critical of Dorje Shugden, like Thurman, have to resort to childish behaviour such as name-calling. The Chinese spy allegations are really ridiculous and it is about time the anti-Shugden gang come up with new and original ideas.
Perhaps we are naïve to think that everyone who studies Buddhism, has immersed himself in some form of the practice, and is able to converse knowledgeably in more complex doctrines, is a true practicing Buddhist. Reading about Robert Thurman made me realize that for some, Buddhism is a not a faith nor a practice, but more a well paying career. For Thurman, for certain the knowledge is be there, but it would appear that Thurman’s interest lies more in being the American mouthpiece for the Dalai Lama, than a true advocate of the Buddha’s teachings.
Robert Thurman’s first encounter with serious Buddhism was through Geshe Nyawang Wangyal, and only after a brief time Thurman professed that he frantically wanted to be a monk and could think of nothing better than to spend his life in monastic seclusion. It was said that Geshe Nyawang strongly advised Thurman not to take that path. Perhaps Geshe Nyawang could already see what Dromo Rinpoche and Gelek Rinpoche saw in Thurman later – a lack of conviction, a lack of sincerity even, or an impetuous nature? We don’t know but even then, Thurman was not thought of as being a monk material.
Nevertheless, upon Thurman incessant pleas (don’t know if Thurman begged and crawled then) Geshe Nyawang took him to meet the Dalai Lama. The Dalai Lama was young (29 years old) and fresh from having lost Tibet to the Chinese and would have seen in Thurman a gateway to the West, since Thurman spoke fluent Tibetan. I think it was then that a convenient religious-political alliance was struck. The Dalai Lama was to be Thurman’s ticket to being the most authoritative Tibetanologist in the West and Thurman was to be the Dalai Lama’s way in, to win Western hearts.
For all Thurman’s zeal to live a monastic life, he left his first wife and child. But merely two years after being ordained, he was home sick and decided that he would better serve Buddhism by returning to secular life to teach. He married again and had more children. So much for his frantic desire for monastic seclusion. It should also be noted that prior to being obsessed with Lamaism, Thurman by his own account wanted to run away and join Fidel Castro but was turned away. So we get a picture of Robert Thurman. But it was fine with the Dalai Lama so long as Thurman was romanticizing Tibet to the West and glorifying the Dalai Lama.
We see in Thurman the present Dalai Lama’s definitive cheerleader often claiming the same belief as His Holiness. For example, Thurman hailed the ascendancy of the 5th Dalai Lama as the ultimate triumph of Buddhist monasticism, topped only by the “achievement” of the 14th Dalai Lama, of course the Great 5th being the role model for the 14th.
It was Robert Thurman who sensationalized the murder of the three monks in Dharamsala, the same unfortunate incident whose blame was pinned on Shugden supporters. Thurman said thus in his interview in Newsweek: “The three were stabbed repeatedly and cut up in a way that was like exorcism”. In that way Thurman heightened the image the Dalai Lama wanted to portray of Shugden followers as demon worshippers.
I cannot say for sure if Robert Thurman’s stance on Dorje Shugden is based on his being denied the initiation. It would appear to me that even if he had received the Dorje Shugden initiation he so desperately coveted, he would still have changed his tune. This is after all, what a mouthpiece is supposed to do. Echo the will of the master regardless of cost or conscience.
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It was Robert Thurman who sensationalized the murder of the three monks in Dharamsala, the same unfortunate incident whose blame was pinned on Shugden supporters. Thurman said thus in his interview in Newsweek: “The three were stabbed repeatedly and cut up in a way that was like exorcism”. In that way Thurman heightened the image the Dalai Lama wanted to portray of Shugden followers as demon worshippers.
I cannot say for sure if Robert Thurman’s stance on Dorje Shugden is based on his being denied the initiation. It would appear to me that even if he had received the Dorje Shugden initiation he so desperately coveted, he would still have changed his tune. This is after all, what a mouthpiece is supposed to do. Echo the will of the master regardless of cost or conscience.
Yes it was him that spread lies and misled the world's media that the 3 monks were killed by Dorje Shugden practitioners. It was really sensationalized by the media in a negative way as the media totally bought what did bob wrote about the whole thing although in reality, it was nothing like that and the actual murderers were never found. For all we know, it could be the Cholsum who did it to frame the Dorje Shugden practitioners and bob here is making false accusations against innocent people. how does he even sleep at night?
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Very interesting. I must say this forum does gives a lot of insides to the Tibetan Buddhism world.
I do not think much of Robert Thurman himself. For me, he took the monk vows and then he disrobed already said a lot about him.
I am sure there are many of Robert Thurman in the world who has disrobed. But they should at least keep a low profile and not criticize other people practice like Shugden. If you have a skeleton in the closet, keep quiet. Now the skeleton is out and I supposed more will be out eventually to question his credibility.
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Very interesting. I must say this forum does gives a lot of insides to the Tibetan Buddhism world.
I do not think much of Robert Thurman himself. For me, he took the monk vows and then he disrobed already said a lot about him.
I am sure there are many of Robert Thurman in the world who has disrobed. But they should at least keep a low profile and not criticize other people practice like Shugden. If you have a skeleton in the closet, keep quiet. Now the skeleton is out and I supposed more will be out eventually to question his credibility.
You might not think much of him, but many others who are not familiar with Tibetan Buddhism sees him as an authority figure in Buddhism and respects his work highly. His works are considered authoritative by many a Buddhists out there who do not know better. Therein lies the danger of relying on 'modern' scholars who sound like they know what they are saying, but actually it is said out of personal bias. In the past, commentators or translators or scholars on the teachings also need to have a certain level of Dharma practice before they can do so, but in our age, anyone who talks about Tibetan Buddhism on topics that most people dont know about is considered a scholar, and unfortunately, Thurman is one of them.
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Well, Thurman sure looks like a 2-faced peson, doing his best to be in the good books with HHDL by bashing Shugden practitioners and at the same time, behind closed doors going on all four begging for shugden practice. We can turn around and bash him for being a 2-faced hypocrite but what I'd also like to look at is he wanted the practice. I do hope that he will create the right condition to one day receive this practice just like all of us who are undeserving.
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Well, Thurman sure looks like a 2-faced peson, doing his best to be in the good books with HHDL by bashing Shugden practitioners and at the same time, behind closed doors going on all four begging for shugden practice. We can turn around and bash him for being a 2-faced hypocrite but what I'd also like to look at is he wanted the practice. I do hope that he will create the right condition to one day receive this practice just like all of us who are undeserving.
As much as I would like to hope for that to happen for him, it seems that he has completely switched camps since the incident and has gone to the Dalai Lama's side. Sometimes you gotta give it to the Dalai Lama for attracting people like this to be on his side so that they wont harm many others (which they might if they are allowed to carry on.) so in hindsight, perhaps if thurman was on the side of the Dorje Shugden practitioners, he would be a horrible example to many, perhaps, which is why it would be better for him to be at the Dalai Lama's side for the moment as one rotten apple in the Dalai Lama's camp would be a drop of water in the ocean because there is just so many followers of the Dalai Lama and his fame is so steady and established that little can affect it.
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Actually, despite all that we know of Robert Thurman, what if someone can convince him of firstly, the validity of the Dorje Shugden practice. As a scholar, he most likely knows this already and he is just using it as a scapegoat to vent his frustrations of being rejected his plea for a life-entrustment ritual by Domo Geshe Rinpoche.
If someone could so kindly as to allay his frustrations and anger and get him to see that from his position, he can do a lot to talk about lifting the ban. He is a person of significant authority and prestige from an academic perspective and that adds to the credibility of his claims and statements should he take up this stance. I know this sounds far-fetched but you never know who this forum is being read by. Sometimes a wild shot or a radical article can work out if it reaches its intended destination. This would be great if that ever happened. Anyway, its just one of the wild thoughts that goes through my head.
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Actually, despite all that we know of Robert Thurman, what if someone can convince him of firstly, the validity of the Dorje Shugden practice. As a scholar, he most likely knows this already and he is just using it as a scapegoat to vent his frustrations of being rejected his plea for a life-entrustment ritual by Domo Geshe Rinpoche.
If someone could so kindly as to allay his frustrations and anger and get him to see that from his position, he can do a lot to talk about lifting the ban. He is a person of significant authority and prestige from an academic perspective and that adds to the credibility of his claims and statements should he take up this stance. I know this sounds far-fetched but you never know who this forum is being read by. Sometimes a wild shot or a radical article can work out if it reaches its intended destination. This would be great if that ever happened. Anyway, its just one of the wild thoughts that goes through my head.
If you havent read the account by Helmut Gassner, the Dalai Lama has a way of persuading people to not take up Dorje Shugden practice or to abandon it: his hug. It would be a very overwhelming hug that many people can barely overcome and they will just promise anything the Dalai Lama request of them afterwards. So bob would probably have turned on 'that side' by that way but there would be things that could make him rethink the whole thing...is that what you mean there Big Uncle? Because its been many years now and bob still has not changed his mind about Dorje Shugden although he has quieted down from writing any new material for quite sometime now.
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Actually, despite all that we know of Robert Thurman, what if someone can convince him of firstly, the validity of the Dorje Shugden practice. As a scholar, he most likely knows this already and he is just using it as a scapegoat to vent his frustrations of being rejected his plea for a life-entrustment ritual by Domo Geshe Rinpoche.
If someone could so kindly as to allay his frustrations and anger and get him to see that from his position, he can do a lot to talk about lifting the ban. He is a person of significant authority and prestige from an academic perspective and that adds to the credibility of his claims and statements should he take up this stance. I know this sounds far-fetched but you never know who this forum is being read by. Sometimes a wild shot or a radical article can work out if it reaches its intended destination. This would be great if that ever happened. Anyway, its just one of the wild thoughts that goes through my head.
One of the aspects i have found most disappointing about Robert Thurman is his refusal to engage in any mature and substantial dialogue regarding the dorje Shugden issue. An open letter to him went completely ignored (article here: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/an-open-letter-to-robert-thurman/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/an-open-letter-to-robert-thurman/)) and he has been known to answer Dorje Shugden practitioners (even ordained ones) very rudely) Surely, of all people, an academic and credible author of Buddhist subjects like him should be all the open to intellectual and logical discussion about an issue like this. This isn't just hocus pocus - it's also not just a religious issue but one of basic human rights, individual freedoms and the right to expression. As an author in the west, surely he should understand - above all - the the importance of freedom of expression and choice! And yet, he sides with the very people who are denying this, especially in a spiritual sphere, which is SUPPOSED to be about finding liberation, freedom and choice.
Would you be more inclined to take his writings less seriously then? It seems to be at odds with the very subjects he is writing about, which is about kindness, being accountable for one's actions (karma), responsibility, openness and a freedom to choose one's path. So it seems that his stance on the subject is more one of petulance, a reactionary one, rather than one of logical and reasonable thinking or objectivity (which is of utmost importance as a scholar, surely!)
Further, not only has he refused to engage in any dialogue but has also reacted in rude ways towards Shugden practitioners (article on this here: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/robert-thurman-meets-kelsang-pema/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/robert-thurman-meets-kelsang-pema/)). Is this becoming behavior of someone who is not only an established, respected author in the field of Buddhism, but, supposedly a Buddhist practitioner himself? Is this the behavior of someone in support of the Dalai Lama and other great Buddhist masters? If so, then it's certainly a poor reflection of the very people he is trying to promote, write about and follow.
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Further, not only has he refused to engage in any dialogue but has also reacted in rude ways towards Shugden practitioners (article on this here: [url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/robert-thurman-meets-kelsang-pema/[/url] ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/robert-thurman-meets-kelsang-pema/[/url])). Is this becoming behavior of someone who is not only an established, respected author in the field of Buddhism, but, supposedly a Buddhist practitioner himself? Is this the behavior of someone in support of the Dalai Lama and other great Buddhist masters? If so, then it's certainly a poor reflection of the very people he is trying to promote, write about and follow.
Oh my, such rude behaviour is very unbecoming of someone who is supposedly the author of many Dharma books. How can someone of his calibre, who has written so many books on the Buddha's teachings act in ways that totally contradict the Buddha's teachings? Why does he not practice what he preaches and will it be that one day people will lose respect for him because he does not practice what he has wrote so extensively in his books? It is always easy to understand Buddhism from a theoretical point of view but what about practice? His total avoidance of Dorje Shugden topics shows that he knows nothing about Dorje Shugden and that he is well aware that what he wrong about Dorje Shugden is wrong. Silence is in this case, an admission of guilt.