dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: a friend on April 05, 2008, 09:35:34 PM
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There is a question Polartortoise asked some time ago that was not adequately answered. Here what he asked:
Why did the gelug leaders not take earlier action, why did they silently allow the dalai lama to destroy their heritage? (Kundeling Rinpoche's) answer baffled me then and still does now. He said that the tibetans did not want to publicly oppose the dalai lama as they wanted to resolve it internally. For 20 years, it was an issue of face??
I found an answer in Dr. Ursula Bernis' book. Of course, as she says somewhere else, this matter has so many layers and is treated with such irrational approach both by the DL and the Western scholars that tried to justify his actions, that no simple answer is enough. It's good, though, to read what she wrote a decade ago about this serious question. And, Polartortoise, I hope it helps you at least to rest assured that our Lamas did not remain silent in order not to loose face.
FROM DR. URSULA BERNIS BOOK
One of the most disturbing components I found in trying to make sense of this complexly layered phenomenon is the intolerant out of hand rejection of any interpretation other than the official one. This forces anyone open-minded and inclusive into a position of having to disagree with the Dalai Lama instead of merely presenting a different perspective on an issue. It is deeply disturbing that the global Buddhism the Dalai Lama has dedicated his life to constructing rejects so absolutely any interpretation of the most learned Gelugpa Buddhist masters other than that of ignorant devil worshipers. It makes a rational approach practically impossible. [...]
In addition, the most educated Gelugpas affected by the ban remained silent. I respect their contemporary wisdom of refusing to compete in the global market place with discussions about esoteric Buddhist subjects where they are inevitably misunderstood. The government's rejection of any reasoned debate about the subject condemned them to silence. From the beginning of the crisis in 1996 the Dalai Lama was determined to destroy the practice. Whether or not to continue Dorje Shugden was never subject to debate or negotiation. This type of intolerance is foreign to Buddhist principles. While a Buddhist teacher may advise the disciples not to do certain practices for religious reasons, the Dalai Lama's political status empowered his government, made up of many social groups, to enforce it. Hence, since a religious issue was displaced into the political domain in order to destroy a tradition, the official literature on the conflict is full of contradictions and unproven accusations. It is fragmentary and incoherent because it is primarily supported by appeal to authority in an attempt to prove the unprovable, not by facts or reasons.
The Dalai Lama himself did not add anything to help find a reasonable approach to this subject. In answer to my repeated request to provide reasons Westerners could understand so that they may judge for themselves why this conflict was occurring, he talked quite emotionally about evil spirits, spirit worship, and the mental instability of Western Buddhists [Interview, December 8, 1997, Dharamsala]. Hardly a rational approach.
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yes, i remember reading that. but it still doesn't answer my question. in maintaining silence, that act contributed to the lopsided dessemination of information. in the absence of any contrary view, the ONLY news is taken as truth. refusing to engage loses the fight. gandhi never refused to engage. he lead the way in showing active resistance that was not an expression of violence.
all through our history, men of courage and valour integrity and truth stood up not for themselves but for their fellow humans who were unable to defend themselves. remaining quiet makes each of us culpable to the conspiracy of abuse going on.
i feel we are completely bogged down in fruitlessly chasing our own tail. the whole issue is NOT about ds. it is about each human being's fundamental and basic right to the freedom of worship. that freedom does not require me to justify my practise.
respect for this fundamental principle dictates that anyone aggrieved by me should submit his accussation to my face and produce evidence proving the accusation. what is the difference between DL's actions and the actions of the military junta that kidnaps suspected dissidents to be incarcerated indefinitely without any right to a trial and due process of the Law? i challenge someone out there in peaceful passive land to please explain this to me.
granted, the subject is esoterically flavoured, but i wonder about the silence of the masters from the other lineages.. Even the many attempts to silence others on this website!
it is this conspiracy of silence that is a deadweight in my heart.
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The Whole Issue Is NOT about Dorje Shugden. It is about Each Human Being's Fundamental and Basic Right to the Freedom of Worship. That Freedom Does Not Require Me to Justify My Practice.
To Anyone!
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I think there are many, many reasons why High Lamas are keeping quiet on this issue.
Actually, some Lamas have already spoken on the issue like Geshe Kelsang, Gonsar Rimpoche, etc.
One of the reasons for not actively/openly engage the DL on this issue might be that High lamas will not engage in that sort of stuff (activism) anyway, no matter what the issue. Keeping the pledges of Mahamudra requires non-action, non-production. Many high Lamas speak very little, and do very little anyway (beside pure/clean dharma!).
The other thing is that explaining that 'relative suffering might (will) ultimately bring benefits' cannot be said because it cannot be defended by reason alone (hence it belongs to the metaphysical order of explanations). This is surely the case with DS as it has been written that attempt to eradicate him only made him stronger, more powerfull. Since we are innocent of what we are being accused of, this persecution will only bring benefits in the long term for us and the Gelug tradition. This is what high lamas call 'the power of truth'! So the persecution is good in the end, but that cannot be said, right? We cannot explain it to common sense.
Another thing is that if you really go down the road of replying to lies and deceit, in order to match your opponents' arguments you will be forced to escalate and say things like:
'Even the Dalai-Lamas visualises himself drinking blood and eating human intestines everyday (Argham, Padyam, etc.)' and 'What demon? The Dalai-Lama himself whorships Kali, the blood-thirsty goddess of death (Pelden Lhamo)!' If we want to match the rethoric of our opponents we will end up in these types of horrible debates opening the door to many, many broken samayas and suffering. It's a good thing our fathers didn't go down that road and showed a good self-restraint example, like lojong, etc.
So, I think there are many, many reasons why high Lamas did not bother replying, many of which are higher metaphysical reasons that translate very poorly to common sense (they have a bad 'media' value). Like one day, a high lama said: 'if tulkus didn't have faults we wouldn't be able to see them!' Well, I can understand the principle of the utterance. However, someone else, like someone very new to buddhism, might be shocked at this 'license to kill'! This could mean,'whatever they do is fine', like abuse, stealing, etc. Some utterances are better left with no debate or no answers because debating these statements 'rationnally' only brings more confusion and more questions and problems.
See the Trimondi's critizing of the DL and the Kalachakra tantra of an example of 'debating with reason' gone astray:
http://www.trimondi.de/EN/deba03.html
To avoid futur 'Trimondis' to 'reason' with our DS practice, it's better to keep a low profile, until the predicted sunshine, No?
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alexis! did gandhi win the high ground and independence for india by bullets and guns?
u can spend the whole of your life on bended knees. that is your choice. but when your heart is moved by the call your ears hear, does your heart tremble?
when the tsunami hit acheh, it turned into an instant buriul ground. do u know what it was like for the thousands of volunteers to go into that horrific stench of decaying bodies and do what needed to be done for the still living?
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Dear PT,
You cannot compare Gandhi with our buddhas from the Ganden lineage. Gandhi was not clearvoyant, nor did he have a realization of emptiness. Gandhi was not a practionner of Gelug mahamudra, Gandhi was a politician and a nationalist, which places him closer to DL than our spiritual fathers.
Buddhas are not activists!
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if buddha was not an activist, he would have walked away and never given his first sermon at deer park.
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PT,
If you place Buddha Shakyamuni and Mahatma Gandhi's activities in the same category. If you place the Buddhist teachings in the same category as Martin Luther King's 'I have a dream'.
Then, although we both are sitting on meditation cushions ringing bells and doing fancy hand gestures, we might not even be practicing the same 'religion'.
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we may have a difference as to how we are approaching this problem. It may be that some of us here have a different assignment than others.
Stay calm_until the stream clears ", or the Sun shines safely, may not be for all of us.
As in the story of Krishna & Arjuana.
If is perfectly clear that Dl controls the western media somehow or another.
It is real tight and tough, to get anything other than a comment posted anywhere.
Meanwhile, I would ask you to inquire as to how calmly the Brothers in India are making out.
Maybe if they just sit there long enough, something will happen all by itself and everything will be
alright. Just dandy!
It's a fine line, isn't it?
We need to nothing?
Shall we hide in a corner and wait for what to pass?
Or shall we stand up and recognize that each of us is a beacon of light and shine brightly, each in his own way.
If we do not shine, then how will the darkness recede ? If we flicker in resolve and determination, then the light will become dim and the room will not be light.
If we burn with a radiance that fill the room. Then the darkness will disappear.
I think hiding our light from the world is fearful and weakens our resolve to obtain enlightenment.
You can expect deaths or worse in the Colonies very soon.
Then shall we just sit here and discuss whether or not the Dalia is a Buddha and there is a bigger plan, on a need to know basis only.
I do not concern myself with broken Samayas or my actions taking me to Hell. Why worry about that when we have so much hell right here to deal with. I do not fear the hells the way I used.
I figure I am either so dammed it make no difference or I am fully protected and doing my job .
It's difficult enough to figure all this without the extra concern if I wiped my shoes or not.
We had better figure something out in real time and right away.
One cannot always exhibit the finest manners when one is in the trenches.
I find no problem quoting other great humans who sacrificed for higher principles. I am not anything special and act as a human just trying to be a little bit better with each step.
I am not realized or a Buddha, but I strive to act like one, sometimes.
There is truth in everything and everybody.
The last man standing does not mean he was the best man standing.
especially when one had a real big club and the other had none.
We need to focus and converse on real solutions in real time and just do the best we can with what we've learned and not get lost in a Tea Ceremony .
I think it especially important not to forget that we can be brazen for the monks. We have not vowed ourselves into non-action.
We can take the heat. We've done it before. Come on out. United we stand_______Inactive, we fall.
What do you think?
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ingrid betancourt once said, "..life is not the most important thing.. sometimes you don't achieve your goals but the intention means everything."
6 years in captivity by the FARC.
the 'enemy' is not DL. it's not china. it's not 'out there'. it's the absence of love in my heart for you. i sit in meditation to establish my motivation. but my backside is not cemented there. the middle way means balance. not inaction. not a deafening blanket conspiracy of silence.
what made buddha decide to turn the wheel?
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He got request by Indra and Brahma!
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Buddhas never go to places (move) without being invited and they never give teaching (speak) without being requested! This is because their mind is of one taste with the mahamudra. They never initiate anything, they abide in non-action and non-production. This is how they do not creat new karma and achieve liberation.
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buddha means the awakened one. they are already liberated.
alexis, we are talking apples and oranges here. when a blind man is trying to cross the street, do u wait to hear him ask u for help or do u walk up to him to offer your help?
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It appears our Brothers and Sisters in the Indian Colonies are in the hot seat.
Religious Freedom & Freedom of Speech are as alien to the the Tibetan Colonies as Dharma is to Wall Street.
I am reminded of tens of thousand of Lemmings running off a cliff.
As I watch the insanity of the Freedom For Tibet Marchers rush into a Medieval Dungeon Time Warp.
These Westerners are the result of the Cold War propaganda brain washing that has taken it's toll over the last 50 years. They only see what the have been conditioned to see. They have no discrimination nor wisdom .
If only we could clean our own homes. Before we try to clean others homes.
How does a government that burn over 90 people alive in their homes in Texas for simply believing differently than they do ?
j How do we justify condemning other country's human rights records?
Remember David Claresh and the Dravidian's Branch, outside of Waco,Texas ,in the early 90's?
I hope our people do not get burned out in the Colonies. It can happen as quickly as flicking a match head .
How to have compassion and understanding is a real effort.
Indifference to suffering ?
Is it like, a Martyr sacrificing his life and his indifference to others.
That happen to be around their sick offering?
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LETTER FROM DORJE SHUGDEN RELIGIOUS & CHARITABLE SOCIETY
LOOKS LIKE THEY NEED HELP TO ME.
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(Translation from Tibetan)
Himalayan Buddhist Cultural Association & Himalayan Cultural For Action on Tibet.
(South India Branch)
Dated 03/04/2008
Announcement to the honorable representative of Bylakupee Tibetan settlement, Chanting master, disciplinarian, and abbot of monastic establishments, Rational Tibetan Youth Congress, Ragional Tibetan Woman Association, the head of council for self truth struggle, all the people, who are rich with patriotism and resolute intention
During the course of past hundred years, under the shadow of kindness of Avalokiteshvara, our brothers in Himalayan regions of India, Nepal and Bhutan received opportunity to study Buddhism in various monasteries, and Tibetan Great monasteries in Tibet. Not only that, after 1959, few thousands of Himalayan people got golden opportunities like our Tibetan brothers to study Tibetan Buddhism in monasteries in India. And we, all the Himalayan students, bear in our heart the incomparable kindness of Tibetan government and Tibetan brothers.
On July 7, 2006, Gaden Trichen Dorje Chang, Sharpa Choejey, Jangpa Choejey, and all abbots and delegates of three great monasteries, Gyutoe and Gyume tantric collages, Tashilunpu, and Ratoe monasteries have passed a resolution of banning the worship of Dholgyal (Dorje Shugden) in the Gelugpa Charter. Last year, all the Gelugpa monasteries have given volunteer signatures and oath not to share religious and material resources with Dholgyal followers. However, under the spearheading by some Dholgyal worshippers, the evil persons and sectarian, prayers and so on in Sera-May monastery has been prohibited.
Therefore, all the people of Himalayan region who are under this religious body will initiate some campaigns for the sake of Tibetan politics and religion:
The sad thing right now is: as the result of the pressure from some Dholgyal worshippers and their related persons in Sera-May monastery, it was not allow the purification day, the practice of Vinaya, and the pujas for the patrons of alive and death, as well as the puja for religio-politices of Tibet in Sera Lachi monastery. Such a sad development occurred.
As per the decision by the general meeting of Sera-Lachi monastery, it was resolved to hold the purification day and pujas in Sera Lachi monastery. As such, we hope that we could hold the day without any conflict from Dholgyal worshippers, and we strongly appeal those Dholgyal worshippers not to attend the purification day and so on. If you continue to pose hindrance, all the Himalayan people will protest peacefully. The following Dholgyal worshippers have responsibility to ensure that there is no conflict at that time.
1 Thupten Kunsang 2 Thupten Samphel 3 Jampa Choegyal
4 Wangyal 5 Ngawang Thapkhe 6 Jampa Khetsun
7 Dakpa Loden 8 Lobsang Yeshi 9 Tenzin Dakpa
10 Tsering Dhondup 11 Ngawang Namgyal
Because of above reasons, over 200 young Himalayan students and all the monks of Sera-May, were not able to hold puja and debating class for last two months. The school and kitchen had to be closed; Therefore, you must sincerely abandon (what is wrong) and take up (what is right) in view of the time of puja and studies being wasted. In case you do not give attention to that, we will appeal and announce the matter to every Himalayan people in general and Himalayan people of Indian citizenship, and thereby give pressure to Indian Government. We will conduct consistent campaigns that Chinese evil spirit Dholgyal worshippers are initiating the campaigns of prohibiting directly and indirectly the freedom of our Buddhist studies and our peaceful conduct.
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Please friends, I can see very few are seeing into this matter any more, but the monks in Pomra are in real trouble.
Furious because the equanimous stand of the Indian commissioner, that told the monks to share the Sera temple and go back to the old ways, otherwise the monastery might even get closed, the followers of the Dalai Lama are organizing the associations of the Tibetan settlements in order to physically attack the monks and the Pomra buildings.
Why does not the Dalai Lama call on them to stop?
This is a criminal intent that only a big pressure from us might help stopping.
We beg you to please write to the Indian authorities.
Deputy Commissioner Mysore
[email protected]
Fax: 91-821-2429012
CC: to S.P. of Police Mysore Ravi
[email protected]
BCC: National Human right commission
Akhil Kumar Jain
[email protected]
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India/post
administrator
Tibetan Affairs
Dear Sir,
I am writing to plead that all precautions be taken to secure the safety of the Dorje Shugden clergy that has only your graciousness to protect them from the Tibetan Vigilante Hate Group.
Another extension of a non democratic exiled government living on your country's good graces. Taking advantage and generating even more necessity and expense to the government of India.
The absurdity of the Westerners protesting for a Free Tibet is a total farce. Because no place as a free Tibet has ever existed.
The Dalia lama has no working understanding of democracies like we share in common.
Because he is not a democratic leader and never has been.
He stomps all over the America's Founding Father's "Bill Of Right and Speech", with the very mantles he wears around his neck as a totalitarian potentate from a medieval absolute monarchism that only survived on the backs of the slave and indentured servitude masses over the centuries.
I met HHDL, in Dharmasala of 1971 and gifted him a 100 acres in Bloomington,Indiana USA in 1979 and helped him until 1996 with building of a Stupa and workshops for people to learn.
After I understood he has no belief in the basic freedoms that we enjoy and persecuted his own clergy . I have found that he is no longer the person I once admired. He is now sick with too much self adorations of movie stars and is not practicing his precepts as a Buddhist. Therefore he is not the Dalia lama or a Buddhist practicing the Buddhas precepts.
He showed the utmost hostilities to me during the Kalachakra in 1999. While in my home town of Bloomington, Indiana, his security squad assaulted with all types of intimidating techniques towards me and my family.
His silent penalties for not obeying his command to desist any support for the DS issue.
Insisting that I ignore his violation of human rights.
Because he is a Buddha and he said so.
I believe he plays in our world and other than he really is.
Once again we all pray for the safety of the Dorje Shugden People, Which is assured in your capable hands.
In Kind Regards
Thomas Canada
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There is a question Polartortoise asked some time ago that was not adequately answered. Here what he asked:
Why did the gelug leaders not take earlier action, why did they silently allow the dalai lama to destroy their heritage? (Kundeling Rinpoche's) answer baffled me then and still does now. He said that the tibetans did not want to publicly oppose the dalai lama as they wanted to resolve it internally. For 20 years, it was an issue of face??
I found an answer in Dr. Ursula Bernis' book. Of course, as she says somewhere else, this matter has so many layers and is treated with such irrational approach both by the DL and the Western scholars that tried to justify his actions, that no simple answer is enough. It's good, though, to read what she wrote a decade ago about this serious question. And, Polartortoise, I hope it helps you at least to rest assured that our Lamas did not remain silent in order not to loose face.
FROM DR. URSULA BERNIS BOOK
One of the most disturbing components I found in trying to make sense of this complexly layered phenomenon is the intolerant out of hand rejection of any interpretation other than the official one. This forces anyone open-minded and inclusive into a position of having to disagree with the Dalai Lama instead of merely presenting a different perspective on an issue. It is deeply disturbing that the global Buddhism the Dalai Lama has dedicated his life to constructing rejects so absolutely any interpretation of the most learned Gelugpa Buddhist masters other than that of ignorant devil worshipers. It makes a rational approach practically impossible. [...]
In addition, the most educated Gelugpas affected by the ban remained silent. I respect their contemporary wisdom of refusing to compete in the global market place with discussions about esoteric Buddhist subjects where they are inevitably misunderstood. The government's rejection of any reasoned debate about the subject condemned them to silence. From the beginning of the crisis in 1996 the Dalai Lama was determined to destroy the practice. Whether or not to continue Dorje Shugden was never subject to debate or negotiation. This type of intolerance is foreign to Buddhist principles. While a Buddhist teacher may advise the disciples not to do certain practices for religious reasons, the Dalai Lama's political status empowered his government, made up of many social groups, to enforce it. Hence, since a religious issue was displaced into the political domain in order to destroy a tradition, the official literature on the conflict is full of contradictions and unproven accusations. It is fragmentary and incoherent because it is primarily supported by appeal to authority in an attempt to prove the unprovable, not by facts or reasons.
The Dalai Lama himself did not add anything to help find a reasonable approach to this subject. In answer to my repeated request to provide reasons Westerners could understand so that they may judge for themselves why this conflict was occurring, he talked quite emotionally about evil spirits, spirit worship, and the mental instability of Western Buddhists [Interview, December 8, 1997, Dharamsala]. Hardly a rational approach.
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The Gelug leaders are unable to take action because if they went against the Dalai Lama, they are going against the man who help re-establish the monasteries in india. without the Dalai Lama, we would not have lamas now, including the Dorje Shugden ones because the monasteries of Ganden, Sera and Drepung would not have been re-established and there will not be any training ground for lamas to manifest. Also, it is also Trijang Rinpoche's direct instructions to not go against the Dalai Lama in any way, but to quietly do Dharma practice without drawing attention. One of the Lamas who successfully did this is the 101st Ganden Tripa whose skill and wisdom in defecting to Shar Ganden after serving his term shows us that it is possible. Another example is Samdhong Rinpoche. They are examples we can follow on how to deal with this issue, as Dharma practitioners.
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Yes, and not only that, there are lamas that go for protests to free DS from the ban. It is not that they are not doing anything. They are not being silent.
Instead what they are doing is that they teach people about DS so that we will know who really is DS and not just by rumors and speculations that are around us. With the knowledge we will be able to judge by ourselves and we will know, helping to bring the ban down.
There are lamas and practitioners that go on non-violent protests to bring the ban down, apart from the teachings that are being conducted.
It is just like this website, it is created to teach and benefit all that come to this website from their doubts, gaining new knowledge as they read. Allowing them to understand and make their own judgement.
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As much as there are people who discriminate against Dorje Shugden and who are the hardcore fans of the Dalai Lama, there are many more who are not. These Dorje Shugden Lamas are tapping into that market and they are doing so very successfully. not everything revolves around the Dalai Lama and the CTA. There are many other avenues to promoting Dorje Shugden without crossing paths (or swords) with the Dalai Lama or his followers and with that said, even more people will gain access to Dorje Shugden from here onwards.
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There are also many lamas that by Dalai Lama's side that practice DS. Spreading and giving initiations secretly to not be affected by the ban.
And if DS is really bad, it goes back to the question of why Dalai Lama never stop these lamas that are near and close to him? Since Dalai Lama has clairvoyance, he will definitely know who are the ones that are practicing DS secretly. Why did he not say anything and still allow them to spread DS under his nose.
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There are also many lamas that by Dalai Lama's side that practice DS. Spreading and giving initiations secretly to not be affected by the ban.
And if DS is really bad, it goes back to the question of why Dalai Lama never stop these lamas that are near and close to him? Since Dalai Lama has clairvoyance, he will definitely know who are the ones that are practicing DS secretly. Why did he not say anything and still allow them to spread DS under his nose.
The Dalai Lama's brother is actually the reincarnation of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, Ngari Rinpoche. And Samdhong Rinpoche, who is the ex kalon tripa of the CTA, and also a very close assistant of the Dalai Lama, is a known emanation of Dorje Shugden which was declared by Trijang Rinpoche himself. So why is it that if Dorje Shugden is really that evil, that the Dalai Lama have 2 people around him that are directly connected to Dorje Shugden? It is also interesting to note that the Dalai Lama fanatics are unable to see this point at all.