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About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: jessicajameson on June 24, 2012, 12:12:35 PM
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This just came out in the news a few minutes ago. His Holiness the Dalai Lama speaks about the late Chairman Mao Zedong, expressing how HHDL considered him as a father and that the late Chinese leader considered him as a son.
HHDL speaks about Chairman Mao Zedong in a very light-hearted manner. However, wasn't Mao Zedong the very man who "caused" Tibetan's to lose their independence? Tibetans were bound to lose their country anyways, but nevertheless Mao ZeDong ordered the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of monks.
Was their relationship really that close?
One thing is for sure, the Dalai Lama never fails to surprise!
Mao considered me his son: Dalai Lama
Published: Sunday, Jun 24, 2012, 17:01 IST
By Prasun Sonwalkar | Place: London | Agency: PTI
Recalling his 'very good' relations with Chairman Mao Zedong, the Dalai Lama on Sunday said that he considered him 'as a father' and that the late Chinese leader considered him 'as a son'.
The Dalai Lama, who is on a visit to the UK for public talks and appearances, recalled an interesting anecdote of the time when he was living in China and was on good terms with Chairman Mao.
He told the Andrew Marr Show on BBC: 'He (Chairman Mao) appears to me as a father and he himself considered me as a son. (We had) very good relations. The only problem was that on many occasions, when official dinners were held, Chairman Mao always used to bring me to his side'.
The Dalai Lama added: 'So then as per Chinese tradition, Chairman Mao himself would use his chopsticks to put some food in my plate. So in a way it was a great honour, but in a way I feel little fear...he used to cough too much, a chain smoker, so I might get some germs (laughing)'.
The Dalai Lama, who fled to India in 1959, said that older Tibetans wanted him to return 'as soon as possible before their death', but other politically sensible people believed that under the present circumstances, he should remain outside in a free country.
'Their message is that (by remaining outside Tibet), you can do more for us. If you return you will yourself become like a prisoner', the 76-year-old Nobel laureate told the interviewer.
Terming the incidents of self-immolation in Tibet as 'very sad' and a 'very, very politically sensitive issue', he said that he preferred not to comment since he had retired, but when the first incident happened, he recalled wanting Chinese leaders to 'conduct through investigation into what are the causes of these sad events'.
Presenting his analysis of recession and challenging economic condition in Britain, the Dalai Lama said that some of the main reasons were greed and speculation, and the tendency to seek 'temporary profit than long term gain'.
'When I was in China, I learnt Marxist economy theory, which has an emphasis on equal distribution, rather than just profit. Since we human beings created this (economic) problem, we also have ability to overcome it. In spite of our difficulties, we should not give up our hope...we must keep our self confidence, that is very important', the spiritual leader said.
http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report_mao-considered-me-his-son-dalai-lama_1706202 (http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report_mao-considered-me-his-son-dalai-lama_1706202)
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Perhaps a statement like this may better relations between Tibet and China, the Dalai Lama and China.
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This just came out in the news a few minutes ago. His Holiness the Dalai Lama speaks about the late Chairman Mao Zedong, expressing how HHDL considered him as a father and that the late Chinese leader considered him as a son.
HHDL speaks about Chairman Mao Zedong in a very light-hearted manner. However, wasn't Mao Zedong the very man who "caused" Tibetan's to lose their independence? Tibetans were bound to lose their country anyways, but nevertheless Mao ZeDong ordered the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of monks.
Was their relationship really that close?
One thing is for sure, the Dalai Lama never fails to surprise!
Mao considered me his son: Dalai Lama
Published: Sunday, Jun 24, 2012, 17:01 IST
By Prasun Sonwalkar | Place: London | Agency: PTI
Recalling his 'very good' relations with Chairman Mao Zedong, the Dalai Lama on Sunday said that he considered him 'as a father' and that the late Chinese leader considered him 'as a son'.
The Dalai Lama, who is on a visit to the UK for public talks and appearances, recalled an interesting anecdote of the time when he was living in China and was on good terms with Chairman Mao.
He told the Andrew Marr Show on BBC: 'He (Chairman Mao) appears to me as a father and he himself considered me as a son. (We had) very good relations. The only problem was that on many occasions, when official dinners were held, Chairman Mao always used to bring me to his side'.
The Dalai Lama added: 'So then as per Chinese tradition, Chairman Mao himself would use his chopsticks to put some food in my plate. So in a way it was a great honour, but in a way I feel little fear...he used to cough too much, a chain smoker, so I might get some germs (laughing)'.
The Dalai Lama, who fled to India in 1959, said that older Tibetans wanted him to return 'as soon as possible before their death', but other politically sensible people believed that under the present circumstances, he should remain outside in a free country.
'Their message is that (by remaining outside Tibet), you can do more for us. If you return you will yourself become like a prisoner', the 76-year-old Nobel laureate told the interviewer.
Terming the incidents of self-immolation in Tibet as 'very sad' and a 'very, very politically sensitive issue', he said that he preferred not to comment since he had retired, but when the first incident happened, he recalled wanting Chinese leaders to 'conduct through investigation into what are the causes of these sad events'.
Presenting his analysis of recession and challenging economic condition in Britain, the Dalai Lama said that some of the main reasons were greed and speculation, and the tendency to seek 'temporary profit than long term gain'.
'When I was in China, I learnt Marxist economy theory, which has an emphasis on equal distribution, rather than just profit. Since we human beings created this (economic) problem, we also have ability to overcome it. In spite of our difficulties, we should not give up our hope...we must keep our self confidence, that is very important', the spiritual leader said.
[url]http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report_mao-considered-me-his-son-dalai-lama_1706202[/url] ([url]http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report_mao-considered-me-his-son-dalai-lama_1706202[/url])
Hmmm..the statements marked in red..can you guys relate it to Dorje Shugden's practice? From the second statement 'temporary profit than long term gain'. This coming out from the mouth of the Dalai Lama tells us something. The Dalai Lama supports long term gain! Which is what we all have been discussing in this forum.
The Dalai sees a bigger picture. What do you think?
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Nothing is simple in Tibetan Buddhism especially the controversial between HH and Shugden.
This article blew a bit of my mind away....not that I have a big mind to blow to begin with. And YES, Chairman Mao was the one who ordered his army to invade Lhasa back in 1951. And I am sure Chairman Mao was also the man who ordered the captured and killings of a lot of Tibetans including the influentials high lamas at that time also. Therefore, when HH mentioned his relationship with Chairman Mao, I am sure HH has his reasons.
BUT, I have surrender to not looking it more in detail, just go with the flow and most importantly, follow your teacher/guru/lama. HH has his methods so does the Shugden Lamas. To me, it is LIKE A BIG CHESS BOARD HH and all the Shugden Lamas are playing. Whatever it is, the results is Tibetan Buddhism has grown so much globally via one man...HH and Dorje Shugden name has been heard/practice all over the world ever since BOTH left Tibet in 1959. Dorje Shugden NAME is on Time Magazine in year 2008, http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1824531,00.html (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1824531,00.html)
I do not think Nechung's name has appeared in Time before...... ::)
HH must have a reason to make such statement, secularly..I think HH is beginning to take baby steps to amend Tibetans relationship with China. Let us see.
Anyway, I would like to share this picture which I found on the internet taken in 1954 with Chairman Mao & HH.
Hopefully before HH passes on, HH would also have a picture with Premier Wen Jia Bao. Of course, with due respect to HH.
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The Dalai Lama is here relating how the relationship with chairman Mao was. And He does it without resentment or anger, HH simply tells facts. What is so extraordinary about that?
Did we expect that HH would speak harshly about Mao Zedong, or with resentment?
However Chairman Mao treated the Dalai Lama does not change what has been done to monasteries and monks in Tibet. Of course not.
This highlights, again, what nature is the mind of the Dalai Lama.
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Perhaps a statement like this may better relations between Tibet and China, the Dalai Lama and China.
IMHO, making such statement will not even move the China government a bit. What will move China government is that HH Dalai Lama declare to the world that He will stop the Tibet Independence movement. Well, I can't blame the China government for this... Can you imagine one day if some other countries come to LA and instigate LA to leave USA and started LA Independence? What do you think USA will do? Allow you to split them? or stop it?
I don't live in Tibet, as such, I can't comment on whether Tibet should be independent. I think even people who live there may have split thoughts. However, I felt Tibet had been preserving Buddhism very well for the past 2000 years, and should continue to focus on the spiritual and religion instead of just political..
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This is the video from which His Holiness the Dalai Lama's words were extracted from:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18568716 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18568716)
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The Dalai Lama is here relating how the relationship with chairman Mao was. And He does it without resentment or anger, HH simply tells facts. What is so extraordinary about that?
Did we expect that HH would speak harshly about Mao Zedong, or with resentment?
I agree that we do not expect the Dalai Lama to speak out of resentment, not excluding all the damage that has been done towards the monks and monasteries. His words were specifically addressing to a certain event and also a general description of things, not much into politics.
'He (Chairman Mao) appears to me as a father and he himself considered me as a son. (We had) very good relations. The only problem was that on many occasions, when official dinners were held, Chairman Mao always used to bring me to his side'.
'So then as per Chinese tradition, Chairman Mao himself would use his chopsticks to put some food in my plate. So in a way it was a great honour, but in a way I feel little fear...he used to cough too much, a chain smoker, so I might get some germs (laughing)'.
However, I do wonder if it is even possible to have any doubts in the Dalai Lama, who is like the face of Buddhism today. Can he be wrong in any way? Is doubting him equivalent to doubting all the other great living masters today?
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The immediate thought which arose when I heard what HHDL had said in this interview is that HHDL is starting to pave the way for the future of CTA. When HHDL is no longer with us anymore and the Tibetans are left to fend for themselves, the best thing that they could at least do is to be in China's good books.
Indeed HHDL is a very far-sighted man with visions sometimes unphatomable by the secular eyes. The fact that HHDL has planned for his life to be of benefit in the human world, that sort of benefit would have to come in many ways, one of which is from the political point of view.
Many times over the years HHDL has been chided for polluting Buddhism's image by being a political leader, the only thing we can count on is the results of what HHDL's positiong has done for many.
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The immediate thought which arose when I heard what HHDL had said in this interview is that HHDL is starting to pave the way for the future of CTA. When HHDL is no longer with us anymore and the Tibetans are left to fend for themselves, the best thing that they could at least do is to be in China's good books.
Indeed HHDL is a very far-sighted man with visions sometimes unphatomable by the secular eyes. The fact that HHDL has planned for his life to be of benefit in the human world, that sort of benefit would have to come in many ways, one of which is from the political point of view.
Many times over the years HHDL has been chided for polluting Buddhism's image by being a political leader, the only thing we can count on is the results of what HHDL's positiong has done for many.
I tend to agree with harrynephew on this matter. I think that the Dalai Lama is trying to soften the Chinese as much as he could with his current status because once the Dalai Lama is gone, not too soon I hope, there would be a power vacuum. This leads to the subject of the succession.
I am not sure if he is grooming another Lama and the only one that come close is the Karmapa. Unfortunately, the Karmapa would not be able to replace the Dalai Lama because of the controversy of the 2 Karmapas and the fact that the incarnation recognized by the Dalai, Orgyen Trinley is haunted by the recent controversy of cash donations, which a sizable amount was from China. Which sparked rumors that he might be in India as a Chinese spy.
Whatever is the case, there is low chance that the Karmapa would be able to fil the shoes of the Dalai Lama. I guess, for that reason, the Dalai Lama has openly declared that he might not return and that the office of the Dalai Lama is pretty much obsolete under current political conditions.
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The Dalai Lama making this statement means 2 things: 1) That he wishes to make peace with China and he no longer wishes to "fight" them and 2) He sees the self immolations as a political move = they were instigated by the CTA for political gain and not really that the Tibetans were really suffering because of how China is oppressing them. The Dalai Lama talking about his closeness to chairman mao is to make China think deeper about their opposition against the Dalai Lama as the founder of modern China was close to the Dalai Lama, so how can the Dalai Lama want to harm China? perhaps HHDL will work for China's benefit in another way, and this will be imprinted and planted into the minds of the Chinese leaders. It does seem like HHDL really wants to make peace with China. The second point was that HHDL has made it clear that there is a political motive behind the self immolations and he does not wish to get involved with that. To me, it is very obvious that HHDL is not happy with the direction that CTA is going and wishes to break off from them.
Will CTA follow HHDL's direction? Will they lift the ban or at least stop mistreating Dorje Shugden practitioners? If not, they will lose the Dalai Lama very soon, from the looks of it.
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The Dalai Lama is here relating how the relationship with chairman Mao was. And He does it without resentment or anger, HH simply tells facts. What is so extraordinary about that?
Did we expect that HH would speak harshly about Mao Zedong, or with resentment?
However Chairman Mao treated the Dalai Lama does not change what has been done to monasteries and monks in Tibet. Of course not.
This highlights, again, what nature is the mind of the Dalai Lama.
I agree with you Hope Rainbow. I have read before about this.
"Do you hate the Chinese?" Dalai Lama was asked in India in 1972 - this was when His Holiness was not a jet-setting global icon of Buddhism. It was a live question, asked by a Chinese author, hailed from the country that had forced the Tibetan spiritual leader into exile and subjugated the Tibetan people.
The Dalai Lama replied immediately with the English word "no," then stated through an interpreter that he had forgiven the Chinese and did not blame China's people.
It is not surprising that His Holiness doesn’t hold grudges and no sense of hostility to the Chinese nor Mao Zedong, despite numerous talks with Mao that leads to nowhere, and Mao's famous saying that religion is described as “poisoning” the people.
Hence, I never lose faith in His Holiness, despite the ban, because there is so much more to His Holiness than a political dictator.
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This sure is a surprised tune His Holiness is singing now. You just never seem to know what His Holiness will say next. This is such a cozy statement that is obviously trying to highlight that there was some kind of good and intimate relationship between Mao and His Holiness. Perhaps so but it was never highlighted before. Why now I wonder?
Perhaps it is to soften the Chinese like what is being said by Harry. I think His Holiness feels like His time is short especially now that He has retired and up until today there has been no progress in dialogue with China. So in a way this huge load that Tibetans have put on His Holiness shoulder does put pressure on getting some results. I wonder what He will next say?
I don't think this statement will move China much but if it is repeated consistently, perhaps there could be a chance for some dialogue before His Holiness passes. Once He passes, really the door will be closed for any form of possible discussion/relation/dialogue. In a way I do feel for His Holiness, having to wear so many hats and all the Tibetans as usual are just waiting for Him to save them but doesn't make His work any lighter but lighting themselves up [sigh]
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The Dalai Lama is certainly full of surprises. To announce his fond sentiment for Chairman Mao in this way is a slap in the face of anyone – Chinese or Tibetans - who have suffered under Chairman Mao’s dictatorship.
Was this meant to appease the Chinese? I don’t think so. The Chinese are not stupid, nor would they suddenly accept the Dalai Lama just because he expressed some niceties about Chairman Mao.
If the Dalai Lama condemned the self-immolations in Tibet, which I personally think is the right thing to do, then maybe the Chinese might glance askance at him.
Or, even more radically, if the Dalai Lama lifts the ban on Dorje Shugden and supports China who is promoting Dorje Shugden practice, perhaps China might be more open to him.
China really has nothing to gain from the Dalai Lama, except if the Dalai Lama manages to lead his people to acquiescing to the Chinese.
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I am very sure that both the young Dalai Lama and Mao Zedong shared a deep respect for each other. After all both were regarded as more god than man by their respective people and therefore each impressed to the other as being almost divine. It is only natural that they could identify with one another, with the older looking upon the younger as a son and like and vice versa.
The Dalai Lama's reaction when he first met Mao was recorded as being "in the presence of a strong magnetic force" and in turn Mao on a separate occasion described the Dalai Lama as "a god, not a man".
Be that as it may, the Dalai Lama's reference to Mao as being a father to him is very cleverly crafted. In so doing he endears himself with the older Chinese government officers, many of whom may still hold Mao with respect. Could he perhaps be positioning the exiled Tibet government as the prodigal son who is hoping to return under the right conditions?
In the same interview the Dalai Lama distanced himself from the many incidences of self-immolations, which China saw as politically destabilizing.
And the Dalai Lama equated the Chinese Marxist ideology as being fair and equitable to the people. Against the backdrop old Tibet being a feudal state before the Chinese invasion, was the Dalai Lama saying that although the Chinese act of aggression was unacceptable, he could accept the higher purpose in the invasion to be ideologically correct?
These are just my thoughts and speculations but clearly it was a much softer and familial tone adopted by the Dalai Lama and perhaps one designed to show his intentions to find common grounds for reconciliatory talks with the Chinese. But with the Dalai Lama being a master chessman, who can know for sure?
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From the historical references I read, Chairman Mao was kind to HHDL during his trip to China. But again the reason why HHDL was in China at all because the Chinese forced him to be there. HHDL has endured great hardship during the trip. And Chairman Mao inserted some insults here and there during HHDL visits and gave a lot of indications that he has no respect for Buddhist religion at all although his mount talk sweet words.
I think Chairman Mao was just acting like another astute politician toward his prey.
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From my understanding of karma and impermanence, I see HH’s statement is a new action of speech that creates a new course of effects. The historical relationship between Tibet and China used to be very close and healthy with emperors Like Kanxi embracing the Doctrine of Lama Tsongkapa. Then, things took a different turn in the 20th century as tension grew between the two nations that ended in bloodshed. Once again, the time for change has come and the recent actions of the Dalai Lama such as retiring from His political role and this statement are triggers to cause change.
The recent events related to the stance HH is taking on political matters related to China and Dorje Shugden reveals that the time for the ban to lift has come. The ban has served its purpose and those involved has let their karma run its course within the confines of a stimulated controversy. It is said that the effects of our karma must manifest, even the Buddha cannot protect us from our karma. However, what the blessing of the 3 Jewel can do is contain/confine the extent to which our negative karma will take its course. For example, if we have the karma to fall and break a leg, with the protection of the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha, we may just fracture our leg. Thus, perhaps it is inevitable that Tibetans’ collective karma is such that they will go through great suffering. So HH manufactured and monitors a situation whereby this karma can run its course and, as He got the ball rolling…He can also put an end to it.
Tibet has been a part of China for so many years, the generation of Tibetans who knew and view Tibet as an independent nation is dying. At the same time, a new generation of Tibetans with weaker attachment to the sentiment of an independent Tibet is arising because they grew up with the education that Tibet is a part of China. With this, the need for a Tibetan government becomes redundant causing the recent change of the TGIE’s role to an administration. With the above taking place (i.e. no more need for a government), the mix of politics and spirituality will naturally disappear. So, to let break the news gently to His people and to give them a chance of having a stable and peaceful life, HH is making this “friendly” statement for the Tibetans who are still plagued by vengeful thoughts, emotions and actions.
Lastly, as Michaela pointed out, I read in an article some years ago that the Chairman made sarcastic statements towards and about HH during HH’s visit to China. The great compassion of HH caused him to choose to look at the Chairman is a positive light. This reminds me of the 8 verses of mind transformation: When others out of jealousy mistreat me with abuse, slander and so on, I will practice accepting defeat and offering the victory to them.
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It is sad to note that after 3 years, whatever causes that HH Dalai Lama wished to create for the return of Tibetans in exile to their motherland has not been effective.
Sometimes it is very difficult not to relate the political failure of CTA with the Shugden Ban. Is the Ban a tool to divert Tibetans' attention to internal disharmony and segregation and CTA does not need to deal with a discontented citizens who need answers after 50 long years.
It is very difficult to interlink religion and politics and for now that is what is happening. Dialogue is needed in all directions. With China and with Shugdenpas. Let us get going and not hide.
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Isn't Mao Zhedong the one who ordered the shelling of the Potala palace? Mao treats the Dalai Lama very well but how does he treat other monks? He destroyed many monasteries in Tibet and burned and laid waste to many precious Buddhist texts and relics. If he can treat the Dalai Lama like a king why is it that he can't respect monks?
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I am actually quite surprised about this news and it is very true that the Dalai Lama never fails to surprise us. Just a few days ago, I read upon another article saying that the 14th Dalai Lama had killed Mao Zedong. Now I'm confused and I thought to myself: "Was Mao Zedong such a close friend to the 14th Dalai Lama? I thought they were enemies or something else. If the Dalai Lama were such good friends with Mao Zedong, why are there so many bad comments given to Chinese people by the Tibetans? Guess we can't really proof that the Dalai Lama is lying as Mao Zedong is already long dead. I can't wait for new news about lifting the DS ban to come forward. Thank you for reading.
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I be kind to who ever is kind to me. I be kind to who ever sponsors me. I be............. After that meeting, many, many years later, China is evil. Is not the Dalai Lama the emanation of Chenrezig? with clairvoyance in tow? and with the past, present and future in full sight? Is he not the adept politician being able to charm world leaders?