dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Tenzin Gyatso on May 28, 2012, 01:34:23 AM
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FACE IT: Shugden's practice is dying already
The point is HHDL has his oppositions and not all his policies will please all the people all the time. But his policy on Dorje Shugden is to safeguard the purity of Buddhism. This faces opposition, but the opposition is quieted down and will accept HHDL's position sooner or later. You don't see anymore protests orchestrated by Geshe Kelsang. In fact Geshe Kelsang has given up his lawsuits, protests and talks against HHDL. He recognizes it is futile. Following Geshe Kelsang example many Lamas has renounced Shugden and followed the advice of HHDL. Geshe Kelsang and the Shugden lamas have not the power, following, evidence, stamina, resources to fight any further. Shugden people have gone back into their comfortable lives and do their prayers quietly to a god Shugden who is not powerful and definitely a spirit that cannot oppose the truth represented by HHDL's courage and stance. The few oppositions left are pockets here and there. No Shugden organization or group is able to oppose HHDL. All of them are powerless and silent. Simply because truth is not on their side and they cannot gain support.
:(
Your only Platform to speak is here & your disharmonious
Debating here on the only Shugden friendly forum in the world will not free the Shugden spirit or bring him mainstream. Even all you Shugden followers do not unite or get along. I 've read the old posts. I was suprised how much you all argue just about Shugden and the bigger picture incessantly without end. For this reason you all broke up. Some stayed on this forum, some left because of obscure silly arguments. I found that so hilarious. You don't even have unity because you argue over obscure unsupported theories. Whether there is a bigger picture or not, who cares. You all worship the one god Shugden spirit and you don't get blessed by him to play nice and get along?? :( Definitely this is the 'blessings' of the Shugden spirit where everything looks hunky dory at first and then it just goes down. None of you get along here even when it comes to Shugden! One side against HHDL full stop/criticize non-stop shouting there is no big picture and the other side purports a bigger picture at same time respectful to the Dalai Lama. Your arguments with eachother on this on past threads was really entertaining to say the least. It is proof Shugden creates disharmony. Can't you all see. You all don't even get along and 'tear' at eachother.
People power, effort, hard work, consistent effort will free Shugden and get him into mainstream acceptance. But hold on a minute, don't get excited, that would only work if Shugden's practice was genuine and not a spirt practice. Since it is a spirit practice, hard work and effort will get the Shugden movement nowhere. See the evidence. Do you see Shugden growing? A few monasteries (Shar Ganden & Serphom) splintering off does not exactly spell growth or mainstream acceptance. Shugden movement is dying a slow death. :-[
Resources and Stamina ending
Shugden movement is dying. No more protests, law suits whatsoever. All Shugden lamas hide, remain quiet or just have no power/resources to do anything further. The students are just making money, making families, buying houses and eating nice food. Not one single student/group of any well known Shugden lama are standing up or doing anything because nothing can be done. A spirit is a spirit. If Shugden is so powerful why does he let this be? Obviously Shugden does not have the power to 'fight' or 'challenge' one single man-His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
Media doesn't consider this important
Even popular media does not take the Shugden issue seriously. Shugden's 'cause' is losing and becoming more quiet. Sorry. But it is for the better.
Ask yourself, as a follower of Shugden what are you doing everyday for the so called ban (not a ban) to be removed? From the comforts of your homes, what are you doing besides typing on this forum that will make huge waves? Nothing much right? How come? My theory is because Shugden is a spirit and he has some minimal power but not enough to combat the pure motivation and stance of the many lamas who have given up Shugden and went back to Kalarupa, pure Buddhism and the logical wishes of His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
Gotta get on the page already man. It's not too late.
Central Tibetan Administration not concerned
I've introduced some of my friends here in Dharamsala who work in Tibetan CTA offices. They said, this website and it's writings does not worry them at all. Shugden people are a small minority and getting smaller. They occasionally visit this website, but they find it sad that all of you will not practice pure Buddhism. They said we should be patient towards the Shugden people, it's just a matter of time they disappear completely. My friends said Shugden people do not have the strength, stamina, resources to fight anymore. The biggest part of this dying 'movement' is truth is not on your side. :( :'(
Silenced
Geshe Kelsang, Gonar Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche, Pabonka Rinpoche, Zemey Rinpoche, Yogyal Rinpoche, Droma Geshe, Ganchen Rinpoche, Gyurme Kensure, Gaden Thrisur in France, Geshe Jampa, Kundeling Rinpoche, Thapo Rinpoche, Zasepp Rinpoche, Gellek Rinpoche, etc etc etc have no more abilities or stamina to pursue this senseless argument Shugden is enlightened. All these lamas and their students have become more and more silent. Everyone has retreated into their centres and hope Shugden the spirit will come to the rescue. I doubt it. Shugden can never oppose the HH Dalai Lama. Truth is on His Holiness the Dalai Lama's side.
Regret and purify. His Holiness will accept. He is very compassionate. It's not too late. We can become one big happy family again. Harmonious and united. :)
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Silenced
Geshe Kelsang, Gonar Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche, Pabonka Rinpoche, Zemey Rinpoche, Yogyal Rinpoche, Droma Geshe, Ganchen Rinpoche, Gyurme Kensure, Gaden Thrisur in France, Geshe Jampa, Kundeling Rinpoche, Thapo Rinpoche, Zasepp Rinpoche, Gellek Rinpoche, etc etc etc have no more abilities or stamina to pursue this senseless argument Shugden is enlightened. All these lamas and their students have become more and more silent. Everyone has retreated into their centres and hope Shugden the spirit will come to the rescue. I doubt it. Shugden can never oppose the HH Dalai Lama. Truth is on His Holiness the Dalai Lama's side.
Regret and purify. His Holiness will accept. He is very compassionate. It's not too late. We can become one big happy family again. Harmonious and united. :)
Your respond in this forum keep reminding me about those Chinese Communist propaganda in the newspaper before late 70s. They are exactly the same as yours be frank: just repeat of top down message without own's mind. If you say these are what you really think and you don't have any job in Dharamsala writing these out of other purpose, I feel deep sorry for you...
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Your respond in this forum keep reminding me about those Chinese Communist propaganda in the newspaper before late 70s. They are exactly the same as yours be frank: just repeat of top down message without own's mind. If you say these are what you really think and you don't have any job in Dharamsala writing these out of other purpose, I feel deep sorry for you...
Wang, what have you done for the Shugden practice to grow? Are you doing anything? More importantly, what can you do? Can you or your group counter HHDL successfully. YOU ARE NOT DOING ANYTHING BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO. The Shugden movement is dying for sure. His Holiness has the support of the majority of Tibetan Buddhists all around the world and that is not propaganda.
It's not too late. Join HHDL and practice pure Buddhism.
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FACE IT: Shugden's practice is dying already
The point is HHDL has his oppositions and not all his policies will please all the people all the time. But his policy on Dorje Shugden is to safeguard the purity of Buddhism. This faces opposition, but the opposition is quieted down and will accept HHDL's position sooner or later. You don't see anymore protests orchestrated by Geshe Kelsang. In fact Geshe Kelsang has given up his lawsuits, protests and talks against HHDL. He recognizes it is futile. Following Geshe Kelsang example many Lamas has renounced Shugden and followed the advice of HHDL. Geshe Kelsang and the Shugden lamas have not the power, following, evidence, stamina, resources to fight any further. Shugden people have gone back into their comfortable lives and do their prayers quietly to a god Shugden who is not powerful and definitely a spirit that cannot oppose the truth represented by HHDL's courage and stance. The few oppositions left are pockets here and there. No Shugden organization or group is able to oppose HHDL. All of them are powerless and silent. Simply because truth is not on their side and they cannot gain support.
:(
Not really. Unless you're blind or just ignorant, even tho Geshe Keslang has stopped with the lawsuits and protests (which i believe instigated more people to investigate about Dorje Shugden), someone else is continuing the lawsuits on the ban to Dalai Lama. Kundeling Rinpoche, in case you have not read about, has taken the helm and is firing lawsuits against the ban. read it here [url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1882.0[/url] ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1882.0[/url]) Geshe Keslang Gyatso has retired as the spiritual head of NKT by the way and his role has been taken over by someone else, also in case you have not heard, since 2009: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelsang_Gyatso#Retirement[/url] ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelsang_Gyatso#Retirement[/url]) oh wowzers its on wiki!
Your only Platform to speak is here & your disharmonious
Debating here on the only Shugden friendly forum in the world will not free the Shugden spirit or bring him mainstream. Even all you Shugden followers do not unite or get along. I 've read the old posts. I was suprised how much you all argue just about Shugden and the bigger picture incessantly without end. For this reason you all broke up. Some stayed on this forum, some left because of obscure silly arguments. I found that so hilarious. You don't even have unity because you argue over obscure unsupported theories. Whether there is a bigger picture or not, who cares. You all worship the one god Shugden spirit and you don't get blessed by him to play nice and get along?? :( Definitely this is the 'blessings' of the Shugden spirit where everything looks hunky dory at first and then it just goes down. None of you get along here even when it comes to Shugden! One side against HHDL full stop/criticize non-stop shouting there is no big picture and the other side purports a bigger picture at same time respectful to the Dalai Lama. Your arguments with eachother on this on past threads was really entertaining to say the least. It is proof Shugden creates disharmony. Can't you all see. You all don't even get along and 'tear' at eachother.
People power, effort, hard work, consistent effort will free Shugden and get him into mainstream acceptance. But hold on a minute, don't get excited, that would only work if Shugden's practice was genuine and not a spirt practice. Since it is a spirit practice, hard work and effort will get the Shugden movement nowhere. See the evidence. Do you see Shugden growing? A few monasteries (Shar Ganden & Serphom) splintering off does not exactly spell growth or mainstream acceptance. Shugden movement is dying a slow death. :-[
How sure are you that the dissidents from the older posts are in reality people like you who pretend to be Dorje Shugden followers but spread lies about Dorje Shugden and try to create dischord? I have caught a few older posts where they were oblivious to the facts and spewed contorted facts about Dorje Shugden before. Anyways, those people have left because they are in fact double agents and the remaining ones are really here to talk about Dorje Shugden.
Serpom and Shar Ganden is, unfortunately for you, growing and expanding while Ganden Shartse remains stagnant, thanks to their new abbot. Just visit their websites and compare which one is more dated and which one is more current: [url]http://shargadenpa.org/[/url] ([url]http://shargadenpa.org/[/url]) [url]http://www.gadenshartse.net/[/url] ([url]http://www.gadenshartse.net/[/url]) I believe that speaks LOADS.
Resources and Stamina ending
Shugden movement is dying. No more protests, law suits whatsoever. All Shugden lamas hide, remain quiet or just have no power/resources to do anything further. The students are just making money, making families, buying houses and eating nice food. Not one single student/group of any well known Shugden lama are standing up or doing anything because nothing can be done. A spirit is a spirit. If Shugden is so powerful why does he let this be? Obviously Shugden does not have the power to 'fight' or 'challenge' one single man-His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
Again, the time to protest have passed and now it is the time for another strategy to lift the ban. We are not against His Holiness, we are merely against the ban. Again, you proved my point. It is precisely that Dorje Shugden is enlightened that he tolerates His Holiness being harsh on him. Which other protector can tolerate such insults and surpressions?
Media doesn't consider this important
Even popular media does not take the Shugden issue seriously. Shugden's 'cause' is losing and becoming more quiet. Sorry. But it is for the better.
Ask yourself, as a follower of Shugden what are you doing everyday for the so called ban (not a ban) to be removed? From the comforts of your homes, what are you doing besides typing on this forum that will make huge waves? Nothing much right? How come? My theory is because Shugden is a spirit and he has some minimal power but not enough to combat the pure motivation and stance of the many lamas who have given up Shugden and went back to Kalarupa, pure Buddhism and the logical wishes of His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
Gotta get on the page already man. It's not too late.
All Tibet related issues often fizzle very fast in the media. In fact, all issues fizzle very fast in the media. So whats your point? Again, we're not against the Dalai Lama, but we aim to educate people the truth about Dorje Shugden, against the lies that the CTA has spread against Dorje Shugden, mainly based on inconclusive evidence and twisted facts. Also, have you noticed that EVERY SINGLE TIME HIS HOLINESS SPEAKS ABOUT DORJE SHUGDEN, HE PAIRS IT WITH THE ADVICE TO CHECK EVERY TEACHING BEFORE ACCEPTING? Either that he is asking you to examine Dorje Shugden before accepting his advice, or asking you to examine his advice before accepting, which means you will have to end up examining Dorje Shugden anyway, then decide. This is what this site is for.
Central Tibetan Administration not concerned
I've introduced some of my friends here in Dharamsala who work in Tibetan CTA offices. They said, this website and it's writings does not worry them at all. Shugden people are a small minority and getting smaller. They occasionally visit this website, but they find it sad that all of you will not practice pure Buddhism. They said we should be patient towards the Shugden people, it's just a matter of time they disappear completely. My friends said Shugden people do not have the strength, stamina, resources to fight anymore. The biggest part of this dying 'movement' is truth is not on your side. :( :'(
Even if they are practitioners, do you think they will confess to an outsider like you? looks like you havent read about this yet: [url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1758.0[/url] ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1758.0[/url])
On the contrary, more and more people in China are practicing Dorje Shugden, even in Taiwan, Thailand and Singapore. China is the world's populous nation. The world does not consist of english speaking countries only, you know.
Silenced
Geshe Kelsang, Gonar Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche, Pabonka Rinpoche, Zemey Rinpoche, Yogyal Rinpoche, Droma Geshe, Ganchen Rinpoche, Gyurme Kensure, Gaden Thrisur in France, Geshe Jampa, Kundeling Rinpoche, Thapo Rinpoche, Zasepp Rinpoche, Gellek Rinpoche, etc etc etc have no more abilities or stamina to pursue this senseless argument Shugden is enlightened. All these lamas and their students have become more and more silent. Everyone has retreated into their centres and hope Shugden the spirit will come to the rescue. I doubt it. Shugden can never oppose the HH Dalai Lama. Truth is on His Holiness the Dalai Lama's side.
Regret and purify. His Holiness will accept. He is very compassionate. It's not too late. We can become one big happy family again. Harmonious and united. :)
On the contrary, many of these Lamas are still coming back despite claims that they are praying to a spirit. Do you really think they can come back as high lamas if they are praying to a spirit? Ho Ho Ho. Perhaps their students are just grouping to build a huge temple to Dorje Shugden: [url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=169[/url] ([url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=169[/url]) Bigger than Ganden, Sera or Drepung can ever build for Kalarupa.
It's easier to disprove people with real Dharma practice, rather than trying to do it the Jehovah's witness way.
And oh, the Dalai Lama is not the pope and we are not Catholics, The Dalai Lama is the temporal and spiritual leader of the Tibetans, not Tibetan Buddhists who are not Tibetan. Dharamsala is not Vatican.
Now repeat after me:
The Dalai Lama is not the Pope.
Dharamsala is not the Vatican.
Gelugpa is not Catholicism.
and repeat.
I am so amused that you missed out so many facts about Dorje Shugden that you overlooked, they were all over the forum! How can we have a proper discussion if you discount so many facts from the equation? Biased views, like those of the CTA do not work here because we're armed with facts and not opinions. Dreyfus's paper about Dorje Shugden by the way, is just full of his opinions on Dorje Shugden is wrong and contains 0 <---this much solid facts about Dorje Shugden.
Anyways, thank you for typing out this amusing post. I really had fun!
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Wang, what have you done for the Shugden practice to grow? Are you doing anything? More importantly, what can you do? Can you or your group counter HHDL successfully. The Shugden movement is dying for sure. His Holiness has the support of the majority of Tibetan Buddhists all around the world and that is not propaganda.
I suppose there is no need of anyone doing anything, those with master practice it continue to practice it(out of their own will for sure), those not practice it just continue with their own practice. Enough is enough, no one has the right to intervene into any individual's own spiritual practice, not even HHDL.
Personally I don't accept your(and most pro-HHDL guys) argument that HHDL is more 'superior' than one's own master when talk about spiritual pratice, it is just not Lamrim teaching, but a Christian's mindset... I feel sorry that a lot mixing up spiritual practice and politics when come to this conflict..
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Personally I don't accept your(and most pro-HHDL guys) argument that HHDL is more 'superior' than one's own master when talk about spiritual pratice, it is just not Lamrim teaching, but a Christian's mindset... I feel sorry that a lot mixing up spiritual practice and politics when come to this conflict..
HHDL is much more superior than many lamas. That is a fact. Like a 10th stage bodhisattva is more superior than a 9th Stage Bodhisattva. A 1st stage Bodhisattva is more superior than a arhat. And so on.
Superior due to attainments. His Holiness has millions of followers. Which lama can compare having the same? His Holiness can meet with leaders of many nations in the free world, which lama can do the same? His Holiness is the undisputed leader of 6 million Tibetans, which other lama is the leader? It is not a Christian mindset. It is the signs and results of great attaiments. Due to the prayers, merits, attainments of His Holiness' previous lives he is the most popular, commanding and powerful Buddhist figure on the world stage. It is not by accident. It is by being who he is.
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Personally I don't accept your(and most pro-HHDL guys) argument that HHDL is more 'superior' than one's own master when talk about spiritual pratice, it is just not Lamrim teaching, but a Christian's mindset... I feel sorry that a lot mixing up spiritual practice and politics when come to this conflict..
HHDL is much more superior than many lamas. That is a fact. Like a 10th stage bodhisattva is more superior than a 9th Stage Bodhisattva. A 1st stage Bodhisattva is more superior than a arhat. And so on.
Superior due to attainments. His Holiness has millions of followers. Which lama can compare having the same? His Holiness can meet with leaders of many nations in the free world, which lama can do the same? His Holiness is the undisputed leader of 6 million Tibetans, which other lama is the leader? It is not a Christian mindset. It is the signs and results of great attaiments. Due to the prayers, merits, attainments of His Holiness' previous lives he is the most popular, commanding and powerful Buddhist figure on the world stage. It is not by accident. It is by being who he is.
So what follows with your logic is that the Pope is more superior than HHDL and also, Obama and many world leaders are more superior than HHDL! That is your logic. It is flawed. Numbers of followers and the ability to meet world leaders by itself does not tells us of anyone's attainment. Thats is not to say HHDL is not attained! I has no doubt about it. But then the same with many High Lamas. They are also as attained as HHDL but do not have as many followers and cannot meet so many leaders. That doesn't mean they are not as attained!!
What you see is only your perception. Very superficial! You see things at a discreet point in time. Look to past and also the future. The view may be very different. In future, the results may also be different. Due to our collective karma, all the efforts of HHDL to gain recognition for Tibet as in independent state or autonomous state is in vain!. Not his problem but yours and mine.
So, just do our practice and don't bother others if you are not attained. Follow your Guru's instructions. That is the basis of Tibetan Buddhism practice.
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*clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* Bravo Ensapa!!! Well refuted and rebutted! Truly TG has no basis and is just spewing generalizations and sweeping statements.
For the sake of your own clarity TG, I believe you should try and do as Ensapa says, read up more on this forum. It is filled with unbiased views and thought and sharing. It has substance unlike long winded posts purely designed to defame and spread somewhat derogatory comments on certain High Lamas.
FACE IT: Shugden's practice is dying already
The point is HHDL has his oppositions and not all his policies will please all the people all the time. But his policy on Dorje Shugden is to safeguard the purity of Buddhism. This faces opposition, but the opposition is quieted down and will accept HHDL's position sooner or later. You don't see anymore protests orchestrated by Geshe Kelsang. In fact Geshe Kelsang has given up his lawsuits, protests and talks against HHDL. He recognizes it is futile. Following Geshe Kelsang example many Lamas has renounced Shugden and followed the advice of HHDL. Geshe Kelsang and the Shugden lamas have not the power, following, evidence, stamina, resources to fight any further. Shugden people have gone back into their comfortable lives and do their prayers quietly to a god Shugden who is not powerful and definitely a spirit that cannot oppose the truth represented by HHDL's courage and stance. The few oppositions left are pockets here and there. No Shugden organization or group is able to oppose HHDL. All of them are powerless and silent. Simply because truth is not on their side and they cannot gain support.
:(
Not really. Unless you're blind or just ignorant, even tho Geshe Keslang has stopped with the lawsuits and protests (which i believe instigated more people to investigate about Dorje Shugden), someone else is continuing the lawsuits on the ban to Dalai Lama. Kundeling Rinpoche, in case you have not read about, has taken the helm and is firing lawsuits against the ban. read it here [url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1882.0[/url] ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1882.0[/url]) Geshe Keslang Gyatso has retired as the spiritual head of NKT by the way and his role has been taken over by someone else, also in case you have not heard, since 2009: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelsang_Gyatso#Retirement[/url] ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelsang_Gyatso#Retirement[/url]) oh wowzers its on wiki!
Imagine this... The whole of China propitiating Dorje Shugden spreading into all the Chinese communities around the world. If this is dying, I wonder what living is? Check these out: [url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1946.msg27725#msg27725[/url] ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1946.msg27725#msg27725[/url])
[url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1855.0[/url] ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1855.0[/url])
Your only Platform to speak is here & your disharmonious
Debating here on the only Shugden friendly forum in the world will not free the Shugden spirit or bring him mainstream. Even all you Shugden followers do not unite or get along. I 've read the old posts. I was suprised how much you all argue just about Shugden and the bigger picture incessantly without end. For this reason you all broke up. Some stayed on this forum, some left because of obscure silly arguments. I found that so hilarious. You don't even have unity because you argue over obscure unsupported theories. Whether there is a bigger picture or not, who cares. You all worship the one god Shugden spirit and you don't get blessed by him to play nice and get along?? :( Definitely this is the 'blessings' of the Shugden spirit where everything looks hunky dory at first and then it just goes down. None of you get along here even when it comes to Shugden! One side against HHDL full stop/criticize non-stop shouting there is no big picture and the other side purports a bigger picture at same time respectful to the Dalai Lama. Your arguments with eachother on this on past threads was really entertaining to say the least. It is proof Shugden creates disharmony. Can't you all see. You all don't even get along and 'tear' at eachother.
People power, effort, hard work, consistent effort will free Shugden and get him into mainstream acceptance. But hold on a minute, don't get excited, that would only work if Shugden's practice was genuine and not a spirt practice. Since it is a spirit practice, hard work and effort will get the Shugden movement nowhere. See the evidence. Do you see Shugden growing? A few monasteries (Shar Ganden & Serphom) splintering off does not exactly spell growth or mainstream acceptance. Shugden movement is dying a slow death. :-[
How sure are you that the dissidents from the older posts are in reality people like you who pretend to be Dorje Shugden followers but spread lies about Dorje Shugden and try to create dischord? I have caught a few older posts where they were oblivious to the facts and spewed contorted facts about Dorje Shugden before. Anyways, those people have left because they are in fact double agents and the remaining ones are really here to talk about Dorje Shugden.
Serpom and Shar Ganden is, unfortunately for you, growing and expanding while Ganden Shartse remains stagnant, thanks to their new abbot. Just visit their websites and compare which one is more dated and which one is more current: [url]http://shargadenpa.org/[/url] ([url]http://shargadenpa.org/[/url]) [url]http://www.gadenshartse.net/[/url] ([url]http://www.gadenshartse.net/[/url]) I believe that speaks LOADS.
You should really read up the previous threads/postings to get a true and accurate account of what actually has transpired. I am inspired when I first joined the forum. It is NOT one sided and is based on factual accounts and with basis. It gives us the opportunity to "see" the bigger picture if we were not so disillusioned to think or see with blinkers!
I do not consider this to be a splinter at all. Do take a good look: [url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=11433[/url] ([url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=11433[/url])
Resources and Stamina ending
Shugden movement is dying. No more protests, law suits whatsoever. All Shugden lamas hide, remain quiet or just have no power/resources to do anything further. The students are just making money, making families, buying houses and eating nice food. Not one single student/group of any well known Shugden lama are standing up or doing anything because nothing can be done. A spirit is a spirit. If Shugden is so powerful why does he let this be? Obviously Shugden does not have the power to 'fight' or 'challenge' one single man-His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
Again, the time to protest have passed and now it is the time for another strategy to lift the ban. We are not against His Holiness, we are merely against the ban. Again, you proved my point. It is precisely that Dorje Shugden is enlightened that he tolerates His Holiness being harsh on him. Which other protector can tolerate such insults and surpressions?
I believe the time has come for a more efficacious and harmonious method to be deployed. Even HHDL has toned down his "refute" of Dorje Shugden as can be seen/heard here in this video. In fact it was almost playful and jovial in a joking manner: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inZslkmx03c&noredirect=1[/url] ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inZslkmx03c&noredirect=1[/url])
Media doesn't consider this important
Even popular media does not take the Shugden issue seriously. Shugden's 'cause' is losing and becoming more quiet. Sorry. But it is for the better.
Ask yourself, as a follower of Shugden what are you doing everyday for the so called ban (not a ban) to be removed? From the comforts of your homes, what are you doing besides typing on this forum that will make huge waves? Nothing much right? How come? My theory is because Shugden is a spirit and he has some minimal power but not enough to combat the pure motivation and stance of the many lamas who have given up Shugden and went back to Kalarupa, pure Buddhism and the logical wishes of His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
Gotta get on the page already man. It's not too late.
All Tibet related issues often fizzle very fast in the media. In fact, all issues fizzle very fast in the media. So whats your point? Again, we're not against the Dalai Lama, but we aim to educate people the truth about Dorje Shugden, against the lies that the CTA has spread against Dorje Shugden, mainly based on inconclusive evidence and twisted facts. Also, have you noticed that EVERY SINGLE TIME HIS HOLINESS SPEAKS ABOUT DORJE SHUGDEN, HE PAIRS IT WITH THE ADVICE TO CHECK EVERY TEACHING BEFORE ACCEPTING? Either that he is asking you to examine Dorje Shugden before accepting his advice, or asking you to examine his advice before accepting, which means you will have to end up examining Dorje Shugden anyway, then decide. This is what this site is for.
We are indeed NOT against HHDL and this forum serves as a wonderful portal to share points and learn about this THE protector of our time. Seriously, if Dorje Shugden were not so newsworthy, why do you TG even bother to refute? Why don't you just let it slide or blow away in the wind as you suggest it would.
Central Tibetan Administration not concerned
I've introduced some of my friends here in Dharamsala who work in Tibetan CTA offices. They said, this website and it's writings does not worry them at all. Shugden people are a small minority and getting smaller. They occasionally visit this website, but they find it sad that all of you will not practice pure Buddhism. They said we should be patient towards the Shugden people, it's just a matter of time they disappear completely. My friends said Shugden people do not have the strength, stamina, resources to fight anymore. The biggest part of this dying 'movement' is truth is not on your side. :( :'(
Even if they are practitioners, do you think they will confess to an outsider like you? looks like you havent read about this yet: [url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1758.0[/url] ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1758.0[/url])
On the contrary, more and more people in China are practicing Dorje Shugden, even in Taiwan, Thailand and Singapore. China is the world's populous nation. The world does not consist of english speaking countries only, you know.
LOL if it really didn't bother them do you think they would even have heard of the website let alone comment on not thinking it is of any concern. I am very sure the CTA are constantly on the lookout especially on this forum to see what's up... After all, one cannot form an opinion without first researching and having basis right... or perhaps some people do? ;)
Silenced
Geshe Kelsang, Gonar Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche, Pabonka Rinpoche, Zemey Rinpoche, Yogyal Rinpoche, Droma Geshe, Ganchen Rinpoche, Gyurme Kensure, Gaden Thrisur in France, Geshe Jampa, Kundeling Rinpoche, Thapo Rinpoche, Zasepp Rinpoche, Gellek Rinpoche, etc etc etc have no more abilities or stamina to pursue this senseless argument Shugden is enlightened. All these lamas and their students have become more and more silent. Everyone has retreated into their centres and hope Shugden the spirit will come to the rescue. I doubt it. Shugden can never oppose the HH Dalai Lama. Truth is on His Holiness the Dalai Lama's side.
Regret and purify. His Holiness will accept. He is very compassionate. It's not too late. We can become one big happy family again. Harmonious and united. :)
On the contrary, many of these Lamas are still coming back despite claims that they are praying to a spirit. Do you really think they can come back as high lamas if they are praying to a spirit? Ho Ho Ho. Perhaps their students are just grouping to build a huge temple to Dorje Shugden: [url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=169[/url] ([url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=169[/url]) Bigger than Ganden, Sera or Drepung can ever build for Kalarupa.
It's easier to disprove people with real Dharma practice, rather than trying to do it the Jehovah's witness way.
And oh, the Dalai Lama is not the pope and we are not Catholics, The Dalai Lama is the temporal and spiritual leader of the Tibetans, not Tibetan Buddhists who are not Tibetan. Dharamsala is not Vatican.
Now repeat after me:
The Dalai Lama is not the Pope.
Dharamsala is not the Vatican.
Gelugpa is not Catholicism.
and repeat.
If it is really true that these Lamas are 'silenced', why do they keep coming back? One such example among many others like His Eminence Kyabje Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche who as you well know is the recognised reincarnation of HH Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang: [url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=424.0[/url] ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=424.0[/url])
I am so amused that you missed out so many facts about Dorje Shugden that you overlooked, they were all over the forum! How can we have a proper discussion if you discount so many facts from the equation? Biased views, like those of the CTA do not work here because we're armed with facts and not opinions. Dreyfus's paper about Dorje Shugden by the way, is just full of his opinions on Dorje Shugden is wrong and contains 0 <---this much solid facts about Dorje Shugden.
Anyways, thank you for typing out this amusing post. I really had fun!
Now repeat after me:
The Dalai Lama is not the Pope.
Dharamsala is not the Vatican.
Gelugpa is not Catholicism.
and repeat again!!!! ;)
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Personally I don't accept your(and most pro-HHDL guys) argument that HHDL is more 'superior' than one's own master when talk about spiritual pratice, it is just not Lamrim teaching, but a Christian's mindset... I feel sorry that a lot mixing up spiritual practice and politics when come to this conflict..
HHDL is much more superior than many lamas. That is a fact. Like a 10th stage bodhisattva is more superior than a 9th Stage Bodhisattva. A 1st stage Bodhisattva is more superior than a arhat. And so on.
Superior due to attainments. His Holiness has millions of followers. Which lama can compare having the same? His Holiness can meet with leaders of many nations in the free world, which lama can do the same? His Holiness is the undisputed leader of 6 million Tibetans, which other lama is the leader? It is not a Christian mindset. It is the signs and results of great attaiments. Due to the prayers, merits, attainments of His Holiness' previous lives he is the most popular, commanding and powerful Buddhist figure on the world stage. It is not by accident. It is by being who he is.
- Having a lot follower, meeting leaders of many nations, be undisputed leader of Tibetan etc. doesn't imply HHDL be Bodhisattva or has gained attainments.
- Having a lot follower, meeting leaders of many nations, be undisputed leader of Tibetan etc. only imply HHDL be political leader of Tibetan.
- I don't know whether HHDL is Bodhisattva/has gained attainments or not. But for sure, and be 100% in line with Lamrim teaching, if one is fortunate enough to have a guru with qualities as outlined in Lamrim Chemo, it is blessing of the Buddha, and in tantric terms, HE IS Buddha. That's nothing HHDL can compared with.
I don't agree with a lot themes in this forum(eg. China be the promotor of DS, Kangxi be incarnation etc.), but that doesn't mean I agree to damage of the basic value of Tibetan Buddhism(ie. guru devotion) as put forwarded by HHDL in this conflict. The fact that as early as in 1978 did HHDL raise his objection in DS practice, but only by force in 1996(and afterwards) could he 'convert' most Gelukpa high lamas into 'non-DS' practitioners tell the truth: just by rationale most Gelukpa high lamas, under teachings from Trijiang Rinpoche/Song Rinpoche, did not follow HHDL's advice if they have freedom of choice.
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Personally I don't accept your(and most pro-HHDL guys) argument that HHDL is more 'superior' than one's own master when talk about spiritual pratice, it is just not Lamrim teaching, but a Christian's mindset... I feel sorry that a lot mixing up spiritual practice and politics when come to this conflict..
HHDL is much more superior than many lamas. That is a fact. Like a 10th stage bodhisattva is more superior than a 9th Stage Bodhisattva. A 1st stage Bodhisattva is more superior than a arhat. And so on.
Superior due to attainments. His Holiness has millions of followers. Which lama can compare having the same? His Holiness can meet with leaders of many nations in the free world, which lama can do the same? His Holiness is the undisputed leader of 6 million Tibetans, which other lama is the leader? It is not a Christian mindset. It is the signs and results of great attaiments. Due to the prayers, merits, attainments of His Holiness' previous lives he is the most popular, commanding and powerful Buddhist figure on the world stage. It is not by accident. It is by being who he is.
So TG... I agree with you wholeheartedly that HHDL is highly attanined. In fact he is none other than Chenrezig... Hence, do think about it on this very basic level, if so, do you think HHDL can be wrong or disillusioned? I do not think so... hence my question to you is, did HHDL not propitiate Dorje Shugden in the past? In fact he composed this beautiful prayer even: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=346 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=346)
So if one were to truly believe HHDL's attainments and obvious clairvoyance, surely HHDL cannot be wrong and hence surely there must be a bigger picture!!!
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TG, I can't just read your post without giving you my thoughts.
FACE IT: Shugden's practice is dying already
The point is HHDL has his oppositions and not all his policies will please all the people all the time. But his policy on Dorje Shugden is to safeguard the purity of Buddhism. This faces opposition, but the opposition is quieted down and will accept HHDL's position sooner or later. You don't see anymore protests orchestrated by Geshe Kelsang. In fact Geshe Kelsang has given up his lawsuits, protests and talks against HHDL. He recognizes it is futile. Following Geshe Kelsang example many Lamas has renounced Shugden and followed the advice of HHDL. Geshe Kelsang and the Shugden lamas have not the power, following, evidence, stamina, resources to fight any further. Shugden people have gone back into their comfortable lives and do their prayers quietly to a god Shugden who is not powerful and definitely a spirit that cannot oppose the truth represented by HHDL's courage and stance. The few oppositions left are pockets here and there. No Shugden organization or group is able to oppose HHDL. All of them are powerless and silent. Simply because truth is not on their side and they cannot gain support.
:(
What will safeguard the purity of Buddhism is clean Guru samaya.
Without it lineage is impossible.
HHDL, apparently contradicted his Root Guru Trijang Rinpoche by instauring a ban on the sacred practice of the enlightened protector Dorje Shugden. Apparently, thus, the samaya is broken...
This is why I rose in this forum before the possibility that HHDL did actually put the ban in place following an instruction from Trijang Rinpoche himself. Why not? It would make sense with everything else in place, such as Trijang Rinpoche instructing his other student Samdong Rinpoche to serve the Dalai Lama all the way, etc...
Then this ban is actually an expression of Guru devotion and is clean samaya. And HH is demonstrating sacrifice and generosity to all by even damaging his reputation with this ban, to serve the Buddhist teachings of Nagarjuna clearly taught by Lama Tsongkhapa and spread it through China (with Dorje Shugden), after He has spread it to the world.
To me this is skillful means of enlightened beings in action, right before our eyes.
Your only Platform to speak is here & your disharmonious
Debating here on the only Shugden friendly forum in the world will not free the Shugden spirit or bring him mainstream. Even all you Shugden followers do not unite or get along. I 've read the old posts. I was suprised how much you all argue just about Shugden and the bigger picture incessantly without end. For this reason you all broke up. Some stayed on this forum, some left because of obscure silly arguments. I found that so hilarious. You don't even have unity because you argue over obscure unsupported theories. Whether there is a bigger picture or not, who cares. You all worship the one god Shugden spirit and you don't get blessed by him to play nice and get along?? :( Definitely this is the 'blessings' of the Shugden spirit where everything looks hunky dory at first and then it just goes down. None of you get along here even when it comes to Shugden! One side against HHDL full stop/criticize non-stop shouting there is no big picture and the other side purports a bigger picture at same time respectful to the Dalai Lama. Your arguments with eachother on this on past threads was really entertaining to say the least. It is proof Shugden creates disharmony. Can't you all see. You all don't even get along and 'tear' at eachother.
This forum is not a forum among Buddhas who have no more flaws.
This forum is among practitioners, and maybe a few Buddhas, I wouldn't know...
How can we expect practitioners to be perfect?
How can we expect them to be free from conceptualization, free from being forced to see their world within right and wrong?
I am sure that HHDL also has discussions and disagreements going on among his followers, among his attendants, among his students. But of course.
If the students were perfect, there would be no need for Dorje Shugden or the Dalai lama to work tirelessly.
So to claim that there is disharmony because students are not perfect and then, by extension blame Dorje Shugden for it is a faulty short-cut that is not at your level TG.
People power, effort, hard work, consistent effort will free Shugden and get him into mainstream acceptance. But hold on a minute, don't get excited, that would only work if Shugden's practice was genuine and not a spirit practice. Since it is a spirit practice, hard work and effort will get the Shugden movement nowhere. See the evidence. Do you see Shugden growing? A few monasteries (Shar Ganden & Serphom) splintering off does not exactly spell growth or mainstream acceptance. Shugden movement is dying a slow death. :-[
First of all, what you call the "Shugden movement" is nothing less than the Gelug, the Kadampa!
Reading your post, it sounds like it is a lunatic "movement"... Like "flower and peace movement", or "new age movement"...
We are talking here about a holy lineage stemming from Buddha Shakyamuni, a pure lineage. We are talking about the view on emptiness as clearly explained by Nagarjuna and as taught extensively by Lama Tsongkhapa.
We are talking about the Lamrim.
We are talking about the Lojong.
We are talking about sacred tantric practices.
And we are talking about the Protector of this lineage, the protector of the lineage of Lama Tsongkhapa.
we are talking about our Buddha: Dorje Shugden!
We are talking about Manjushri!
And if it would be declining (which is not the case), there could possibly be no room in your heart for rejoicing over it. As a Gelug practitioner, your heart can only fall into sadness, dry up and crack even at the mere thought that Dorje Shugden practice could diminish.
Why? Because what are we going to pass on to the next generations? What? I don't mean any offence, but HHDL is in a human form, He has the human aggregates, and he will pass away one day. Who can continue His enlightened work afterwards? Who?
But no, HHDL also manages to subjugate the very nation that puts Him down, and He does that before leaving His current aggregates. When he will leave, Vajrayana would have been planted on every nation, even in China, with the assistance of Dorje Shugden, who is Manjushri.
By the way, HHDL himself did say that the practice is growing, and He even named a few countries in which it is becoming very strong. I am sure you do not have the mind to contradict HH.
And yes, there is still so much more to do, the road is still long, and there should be no effort spared to give all sentient beings at least a seed for enlightenment. There must be more effort from the side of the practitioners. The recognition of Dorje Shugden is growing, the practice of the teachings of Lama Tsongkhapa is growing, but I agree with you, it should grow more, there should be more efforts.
Resources and Stamina ending
Shugden movement is dying. No more protests, law suits whatsoever. All Shugden lamas hide, remain quiet or just have no power/resources to do anything further. The students are just making money, making families, buying houses and eating nice food. Not one single student/group of any well known Shugden lama are standing up or doing anything because nothing can be done. A spirit is a spirit. If Shugden is so powerful why does he let this be? Obviously Shugden does not have the power to 'fight' or 'challenge' one single man-His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
I hope this is a sign that the ban is dissipating.
You see, at one point, the ban won't be needed anymore, and growth must then come from other methods.
have you thought that, perhaps, this is what was happening?
Media doesn't consider this important
Even popular media does not take the Shugden issue seriously. Shugden's 'cause' is losing and becoming more quiet. Sorry. But it is for the better.
Ask yourself, as a follower of Shugden what are you doing everyday for the so called ban (not a ban) to be removed? From the comforts of your homes, what are you doing besides typing on this forum that will make huge waves? Nothing much right? How come? My theory is because Shugden is a spirit and he has some minimal power but not enough to combat the pure motivation and stance of the many lamas who have given up Shugden and went back to Kalarupa, pure Buddhism and the logical wishes of His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
Gotta get on the page already man. It's not too late.
dixit: " Gotta get on the page already man. It's not too late. "
Central Tibetan Administration not concerned
I've introduced some of my friends here in Dharamsala who work in Tibetan CTA offices. They said, this website and it's writings does not worry them at all. Shugden people are a small minority and getting smaller. They occasionally visit this website, but they find it sad that all of you will not practice pure Buddhism. They said we should be patient towards the Shugden people, it's just a matter of time they disappear completely. My friends said Shugden people do not have the strength, stamina, resources to fight anymore. The biggest part of this dying 'movement' is truth is not on your side. :( :'(
I personally think that the CTA should be focusing on the enormous task that is to care for the exiled Tibetan community on all secular levels and remain independent from the religious agenda. When the CTA is in charge of the Tibetan community in exile, it means they are also in charge of the Dorje Shugden practitioners. A DS practitioner should even be able to become an executive of the CTA, there should be no reason to discriminate between Tibetans in exile on the basis of their religious practice.
Why would the CTA worry about the Dorje Shugden in any other way than worrying about them being descriminated!
Silenced
Geshe Kelsang, Gonar Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche, Pabonka Rinpoche, Zemey Rinpoche, Yogyal Rinpoche, Droma Geshe, Ganchen Rinpoche, Gyurme Kensure, Gaden Thrisur in France, Geshe Jampa, Kundeling Rinpoche, Thapo Rinpoche, Zasepp Rinpoche, Gellek Rinpoche, etc etc etc have no more abilities or stamina to pursue this senseless argument Shugden is enlightened. All these lamas and their students have become more and more silent. Everyone has retreated into their centres and hope Shugden the spirit will come to the rescue. I doubt it. Shugden can never oppose the HH Dalai Lama. Truth is on His Holiness the Dalai Lama's side.
Regret and purify. His Holiness will accept. He is very compassionate. It's not too late. We can become one big happy family again. Harmonious and united. :)
But we are one family! I don't see us in any other way!
Please help us in sending this message across: WE ARE ONE BIG FAMILY! We have the same practices, we have the same lineage, for a lot of us we even have the same Gurus.
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Personally I don't accept your(and most pro-HHDL guys) argument that HHDL is more 'superior' than one's own master when talk about spiritual pratice, it is just not Lamrim teaching, but a Christian's mindset... I feel sorry that a lot mixing up spiritual practice and politics when come to this conflict..
HHDL is much more superior than many lamas. That is a fact. Like a 10th stage bodhisattva is more superior than a 9th Stage Bodhisattva. A 1st stage Bodhisattva is more superior than a arhat. And so on.
Superior due to attainments. His Holiness has millions of followers. Which lama can compare having the same? His Holiness can meet with leaders of many nations in the free world, which lama can do the same? His Holiness is the undisputed leader of 6 million Tibetans, which other lama is the leader? It is not a Christian mindset. It is the signs and results of great attaiments. Due to the prayers, merits, attainments of His Holiness' previous lives he is the most popular, commanding and powerful Buddhist figure on the world stage. It is not by accident. It is by being who he is.
Hello Tenzin Gyatso, Greetings to you :)
I'm amazed with how you measured HHDL's attainments. How can you measure a Lama's attaiments through the numbers of followers? What you said does not make sense. You've claimed that HHDL is for more superior than many Lamas, therefore there are some Lama's are more superior than HHDL?
We never doubted HHDL attainments and HHDL have propitiated Dorje Shugden in the past and maybe still do but secretly :) who knows? Therefore HHDL does have his reason for doing this for now. There will be a bigger picture! You watch and see.
By the way how do you conclude that we are disharmonious and make wild allegations that some of us argued about Dorje Shugden and the bigger picture and left? You must be highly attained to have the Clairvoyance to make that allegations. (I don't mean to be rude but really?) The forum is OPEN to public and anyone can post, argue, discuss & debate. Some may agree, some may argue, some maybe angry, some disagree & etc.
Please get your facts right before you speak. Read our website and our forum, it have all the facts. Please read them through carefully.
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I really laughed out so loud when i read through Tenzin Gyatso's post. Stop giving His Holiness a bad name!! cmon! I am sure you can do better than rely on delusional, make believe and nonexistent facts, half truths, lack of information just to convey your point right? No offense but you sound like someone who is living in their own world who is trying very hard to convince others (or perhaps yourself) that you're right and a part of you knows its wrong?
I mean, nothing wrong with saying that Dorje Shugden is bad or what, but do make sure that there are facts. Saying that Shar Ganden and Serpom is not growing and does not prove anything is funny because it shows that either that you honestly dididnt read about them, or that you're no offense, delusional. Because they ARE growing faster and bigger than Ganden Shartse and Sera.
If you do want to prove a point, tell us something we already know and something that can be researched. Half truths, where you take opinions without taking in facts is just hilarious indeed coz 1) Everybody knows you're wrong, and yet you keep insisting that you're right and 2) You make His Holiness look bad because you are behaving in a way that contradicts His Holiness.
Which, I am not surprised as the CTA fed their scholars with the wrong information about Dorje Shugden and the complete lack of dates, names, places, just the description of the event. That too, we have no way of verifying if it is accurate or made up, or was based on a true incident but distorted to implicate Dorje Shugden. As a result, we get people with information that contradicts the actual situation.
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Yawn...Id be more concerned with what happens when the Dalai lama dies Tenzin.
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Yawn...Id be more concerned with what happens when the Dalai lama dies Tenzin.
Don't be worried. There will be hundreds of Geshes, Tulkus, monks and Scholars from Ganden, Sera and Drephung who will carry on HHDL's instructions. The Tibetan nation will carry on HHDL's instructions. Six million and countless hundreds of thousands of non-Tibetan practitioners around the world will carry on HHDL's instructions. The Nyingmapa, Sakya and kagyu will carry on and it will be without Shugden. His Holiness is the teacher of hundreds of scholars and high incarnations and they will carry on his works.
Who will carry on after Geshe Kelsang passes? There is no more work, protests and law suits against HHDL anymore already.
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Yawn...Id be more concerned with what happens when the Dalai lama dies Tenzin.
Don't be worried. There will be hundreds of Geshes, Tulkus, monks and Scholars from Ganden, Sera and Drephung who will carry on HHDL's instructions. The Tibetan nation will carry on HHDL's instructions. Six million and countless hundreds of thousands of non-Tibetan practitioners around the world will carry on HHDL's instructions. The Nyingmapa, Sakya and kagyu will carry on and it will be without Shugden. His Holiness is the teacher of hundreds of scholars and high incarnations and they will carry on his works.
Who will carry on after Geshe Kelsang passes? There is no more work, protests and law suits against HHDL anymore already.
Lets see how loyal they stay to him when he isn't around anymore. Geshe kelsang has already retired by the way.
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Yawn...Id be more concerned with what happens when the Dalai lama dies Tenzin.
Don't be worried. There will be hundreds of Geshes, Tulkus, monks and Scholars from Ganden, Sera and Drephung who will carry on HHDL's instructions. The Tibetan nation will carry on HHDL's instructions. Six million and countless hundreds of thousands of non-Tibetan practitioners around the world will carry on HHDL's instructions. The Nyingmapa, Sakya and kagyu will carry on and it will be without Shugden. His Holiness is the teacher of hundreds of scholars and high incarnations and they will carry on his works.
Who will carry on after Geshe Kelsang passes? There is no more work, protests and law suits against HHDL anymore already.
Lets see how loyal they stay to him when he isn't around anymore. Geshe kelsang has already retired by the way.
Everyone's been pretty loyal since the time of His Holiness the Great 5th. I think they will remain loyal.
I am in the know about Geshe Kelsang's retirement, after he has passed, who takes over? NKT might be in trouble. :(
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TG (you are not the only one and probably won't be the last).
It is very clear from some responses on this site from time-to-time contributors will hear what they want to hear and miss the very clear signs of HHDL speeches? (subtleties of his speech - question marks prefaced at the end of his DS rehtoric). For example a speech about the development of Shar Gaden / Serpom.
HHDL clearly says that DS practioners will have a bad result (not exact words) but then in the next breath he said If these new monasteries have the karma to grow big??? (again not exact words). An indication to DS Lamas and practitioners to preserve this lineage we must all do our part - our ACTIONS - WORDS - SUPPORT ALL THEY WAY - CLEAN SAMAYA.
So what is HHDL saying when their are so many irregularities??? We should at the very least respect our gurus other peoples gurus and lineages.
I humbly request you follow HHDL advice? Makes me wonder why you participate on this forum...It is crystal clear.
You want to Discredit - Demean - Belittle DS Monks their Practices / Lineages...Are you not concerned for yourself? If attained masters can reincarnate back? how is it possible that we low level practitioners can attain anything higher without putting some teachings into practice.
Karma doesn't discriminate even if you are a Buddha in human form, A Buddha also has the karma of a human body and will die eventually. Buddha Shakyamuni died so what makes you think you will not also...If you did believe in the teachings of the Buddha and in the law of Karma you would NOT act in such a disrespectful way to people or persons with a different point of view to yourself.
xo
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TG's topic of debate clearly has no basis or logic.
First of all how can you measure the attainments of someone by just looking at how influential they are? If this is so I guess Madonna, Obama, the Popoe and all the celebrities and hollywood stars have attainments too! Some of them are even more popular with more followers then HHDL. That is so ridiculous and very silly to even suggest!
Your arguments has no basis as Ensapa and Rainbow has clearly highlighted on each points you made. It will be very difficult for anyone to believe your arguments because it just doesn't hold any water. Sorry.
There is really no point even debating because it clearly shows how small your perception is and ignorance is pretty bliss. You are quite happy believing what you believe.. so whatever logic we present to you will fall on death ears. well
Only karma can be the judge, whether or not you are whatever Bodhisattva stage. Lets not condemned any Lamas or anyone in robes... it is part of our Buddhist vows, le's not accumulate more negative karma which will result to even sadder consequences for your Tibetans. Tibet is gone... face the facts and move on. Dharma is the only real thing that last, why be so attached to a country when your next life you could probably come back as a China man.
And I am certain that many other high Lamas like Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche, Zong Rinpoche, Geshe Kelsang etc etc are also highly attained. Let's just follow our Guru's instructions and have PEACE beb and starts with YOU!
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Bravo Ensapa, Positive Change and all for the facts.
Dear TG, personally, I encourage you to visit all the monasteries around the world that practices Lord Dorje Shugden. If you do not know which are the monasteries, please check from this forum or the website : http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?category_name=monastery-with-dorje-shugden. (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?category_name=monastery-with-dorje-shugden.) Have a look with your own eyes to check out on the reality of what’s happening.
I have the merits to visit one of them, i.e. Shar Gaden early this year. I can see with my own eyes that the Shar Gaden is expanding and they are building a new hospital now. Parents are still sending their children to study and be a monk there. Domo Geshe Rinpoche is there too. Shar Gaden is also sponsoring for the renovation of Trijang Rinpoche & Zong Rinpoche’s Stupa in Gaden. If the practice is dying, I do not think that it will have that kind of growth that I can see with my own eyes.
You can also see that the video of Serpom Monastery Inauguration Ceremony early this year here: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=12844. (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=12844.) Inauguration of Jangchup Lamrim Temple, Lumbini, Nepal : http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=6817. (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=6817.) There are also recent articles and photos for Sampheling Monastery, Chatreng, etc.
Be open and have a look at what's happening around the world and you will have a better idea on the real picture.
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Yawn...Id be more concerned with what happens when the Dalai lama dies Tenzin.
Don't be worried. There will be hundreds of Geshes, Tulkus, monks and Scholars from Ganden, Sera and Drephung who will carry on HHDL's instructions. The Tibetan nation will carry on HHDL's instructions. Six million and countless hundreds of thousands of non-Tibetan practitioners around the world will carry on HHDL's instructions. The Nyingmapa, Sakya and kagyu will carry on and it will be without Shugden. His Holiness is the teacher of hundreds of scholars and high incarnations and they will carry on his works.
Who will carry on after Geshe Kelsang passes? There is no more work, protests and law suits against HHDL anymore already.
Lets see how loyal they stay to him when he isn't around anymore. Geshe kelsang has already retired by the way.
Everyone's been pretty loyal since the time of His Holiness the Great 5th. I think they will remain loyal.
I am in the know about Geshe Kelsang's retirement, after he has passed, who takes over? NKT might be in trouble. :(
I don't think you understand Tenzin, Geshe Kelsang doesn't do day to day running he's retired, Its being run by the General and Deputy Spiritual directors whom are subject to 4 year elected terms.
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Yawn...Id be more concerned with what happens when the Dalai lama dies Tenzin.
Don't be worried. There will be hundreds of Geshes, Tulkus, monks and Scholars from Ganden, Sera and Drephung who will carry on HHDL's instructions. The Tibetan nation will carry on HHDL's instructions. Six million and countless hundreds of thousands of non-Tibetan practitioners around the world will carry on HHDL's instructions. The Nyingmapa, Sakya and kagyu will carry on and it will be without Shugden. His Holiness is the teacher of hundreds of scholars and high incarnations and they will carry on his works.
Who will carry on after Geshe Kelsang passes? There is no more work, protests and law suits against HHDL anymore already.
Lets see how loyal they stay to him when he isn't around anymore. Geshe kelsang has already retired by the way.
Everyone's been pretty loyal since the time of His Holiness the Great 5th. I think they will remain loyal.
I am in the know about Geshe Kelsang's retirement, after he has passed, who takes over? NKT might be in trouble. :(
I don't think you understand Tenzin, Geshe Kelsang doesn't do day to day running he's retired, Its being run by the General and Deputy Spiritual directors whom are subject to 4 year elected terms.
So there's no problem... :)
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Yawn...Id be more concerned with what happens when the Dalai lama dies Tenzin.
Don't be worried. There will be hundreds of Geshes, Tulkus, monks and Scholars from Ganden, Sera and Drephung who will carry on HHDL's instructions. The Tibetan nation will carry on HHDL's instructions. Six million and countless hundreds of thousands of non-Tibetan practitioners around the world will carry on HHDL's instructions. The Nyingmapa, Sakya and kagyu will carry on and it will be without Shugden. His Holiness is the teacher of hundreds of scholars and high incarnations and they will carry on his works.
Who will carry on after Geshe Kelsang passes? There is no more work, protests and law suits against HHDL anymore already.
Lets see how loyal they stay to him when he isn't around anymore. Geshe kelsang has already retired by the way.
Everyone's been pretty loyal since the time of His Holiness the Great 5th. I think they will remain loyal.
I am in the know about Geshe Kelsang's retirement, after he has passed, who takes over? NKT might be in trouble. :(
I don't think you understand Tenzin, Geshe Kelsang doesn't do day to day running he's retired, Its being run by the General and Deputy Spiritual directors whom are subject to 4 year elected terms.
So there's no problem... :)
There's more to the day to day running for a huge centre. It's the spiritual force/rock/inspiration behind it all. When that is gone. It's difficult. I understand what you are trying to say though. I am talking about the wellspring from whence all arose in NKT would be Geshe-la. :(
Same in the case of HHDL except, His Holiness has thousands of great sangha behind him and after he is gone, they will continue the legacy as they have since the inception of Dalai Lamas as rulers of Tibet.
:)
If Geshe Kelsang would 'join' up with HHDL, then NKT would have vast support from qualified sangha with full training according to Monastic training. The only issue standing in the way is Shugden spirit. Shugden is not important at all. Being harmonious with the monasteries, HHDL, the sangha and the vast practitioners of Buddhism is much more important. Give up Shugden's unnecessary worship and NKT would have better chance of survival way into the future with backing of all the spiritual communities blessed by HHDL. I would like to see NKT survive. As I said before, Geshe-La monastic training is beyond repute, but what brought Geshe-la down is Shugden. :-[
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From the Shugden camp, the truth is there is nothing happening anymore. Everything is basically died or at a standstill. Shugden cannot win over what is correct.
All the monasteries have been purified of Shugden's influence and nothing can oppose HHDL's compassionate and brave stance. I am sure it was no easy task to remove the Shugden influence. But HHDL recieves no benefits for himself by doing this. No money, no reputation and therefore it must be for the welfare of the general practitioners. I still say Kalarupa is not dead, not ineffective, and should be the focussed practice of Gelugs as a protector. Read up on Kalarupa's qualities, nature and function especially in relations to one of the three main protectors of the Lam Rim and Lam Rim lineage. Understand Kalarupa better.
He is not only the protector of the Gelug lineage, Lam Rim but also the protector of the Yamantaka tantras. If you engage in Yamantaka practice, Kalarupa comes as a practice automatically as he is very important for removing obstacles on both the outer and inner levels. Inner being attachment to subtle grasping of the I which is the root cause of samsara. Kalarupa is no other than Yamantaka in a protective form. I was explained this by a Geshe at the Tibetan Library. It blew my mind away and thought to share it here. ;)
It's not too late to take heed and adopt Kalarupa.
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Dear Tenzin Gyatso,
Dorje Shugden is alive and well in the United States of America and is not going away anytime soon.
You shouldn't judge other people's dharma practice; otherwise you risk breaking your own commitments to the guru.
Although I am a teacher in the New Kadampa Tradition, as a Duramgama Bodhisattva, I am a firm believer in Rime.
We are all on the same path to enlightenment; a single path with a plurality of aspects.
You should be encouraging people to practice more dharma, not less.
Your remarks are quite disparaging; a seeming result of your own attachment.
Question your own thoughts and examine your own mind.
I support you in your practice of Yamantaka and Kalarupa.
I only ask that you afford us Shugdenpa the same courtesy.
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May we all rejoice in the holy dharma and precious teachings of the masters in all our lives!
TG, thoughts, words and actions have a serious impact on karma. Please consider your words and how you post with extreme care always. Samsara is rich in deceptions, delusions and confusion everywhere. Nothing is as it seems - investigate glory/fame/power, look hard and make sure of the truth.
People set themselves on fire, people beat and get beatings, worse things happen, everywhere all the time there is horrific suffering, so that their suffering is not meaningless, we have a duty to learn as much wisdom as possible. Practice only pure speech whenever you refer to the Buddhas, all precious Gurus and all holy beings. To do otherwise is at your peril.
Please meditate on this, while you might feel anger rising at first, but I hope any resistance is followed swiftly with clarity. I offer you this advice with love.
May the doctrine of Je Tsongkapa spread through the worlds in all directions and bring the fullest benefit to every being in accordance with their capacities!
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Dear Tenzin Gyatso,
Dorje Shugden is alive and well in the United States of America and is not going away anytime soon.
You shouldn't judge other people's dharma practice; otherwise you risk breaking your own commitments to the guru.
Although I am a teacher in the New Kadampa Tradition, as a Duramgama Bodhisattva, I am a firm believer in Rime.
We are all on the same path to enlightenment; a single path with a plurality of aspects.
You should be encouraging people to practice more dharma, not less.
Your remarks are quite disparaging; a seeming result of your own attachment.
Question your own thoughts and examine your own mind.
I support you in your practice of Yamantaka and Kalarupa.
I only ask that you afford us Shugdenpa the same courtesy.
Dear BW,
Thanks for your introduction.
I support all dharma practice, but Shugden spirit is not Dharma practice. Discouraging involvement with Shugden spirit does not damage my commitments to my teacher. I agree with my teacher when he warns us against this spirit.
I have disparaged no one. I have disparaged no Dharma. I have spoken against the Shugden spirit. I do so because I want the Dharma to not be tainted.
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Dear Tenzin Gyatso,
Dorje Shugden is alive and well in the United States of America and is not going away anytime soon.
You shouldn't judge other people's dharma practice; otherwise you risk breaking your own commitments to the guru.
Although I am a teacher in the New Kadampa Tradition, as a Duramgama Bodhisattva, I am a firm believer in Rime.
We are all on the same path to enlightenment; a single path with a plurality of aspects.
You should be encouraging people to practice more dharma, not less.
Your remarks are quite disparaging; a seeming result of your own attachment.
Question your own thoughts and examine your own mind.
I support you in your practice of Yamantaka and Kalarupa.
I only ask that you afford us Shugdenpa the same courtesy.
Dear BW,
Thanks for your introduction.
I support all dharma practice, but Shugden spirit is not Dharma practice. Discouraging involvement with Shugden spirit does not damage my commitments to my teacher. I agree with my teacher when he warns us against this spirit.
I have disparaged no one. I have disparaged no Dharma. I have spoken against the Shugden spirit. I do so because I want the Dharma to not be tainted.
Dear Tenzin Gyatso
Dorje Shugden is Buddha Manjushri. How can Dharma be tainted by Dorje Shugden practice? Can Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche be wrong? Can Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche be wrong? Can all the Gelugpa lineage lamas be wrong about Dorje Shugden? Even His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama had propitiated Dorje Shugden before! It is HH Dalai Lama alone against his tutor Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and all the Gelugpa lineage masters. Whom do you think is right?
Wouldn’t HH Dalai Lama be afraid of very heavy negative karma by breaking samayas, creating schisms, disparaging Buddha Dorje Shugden, creating great amount of suffering for Shugden practitioners, causing disrepute to Dharma etc.? Of course HH Dalai Lama realized the consequences of these negative actions! HH Dalai Lama’s actions seem to contradict with the job functions of a Buddha i.e. to benefit all sentient beings! How could HH Dalai Lama have done all these wrongs? Surely he had done all these for a higher and greater purpose! Appearances are deceptive!
All sentient beings affected by the ban on Dorje Shugden must already have had the karma to experience the obstacles and sufferings caused by the ban. HH Dalai Lama is an emanation of Chenrezig, a Buddha. HH Dalai Lama has the clairvoyance to know that. HH Dalai Lama definitely has a higher motivation, a bigger picture of spreading Dorje Shugden practices far and wide through the ban.
Many contributors of this forum in this post and many other prior posts had proven you wrong time and again with strong, valid, logical facts and reasons against your stance against Dorje Shugden. It is time for you to accept defeat and offer victory to others. Is it not time for you to rest your case?
HH Dalai Lama cannot be wrong because he is an emanation of Buddha Chenrezig. HH Dalai Lama appears to be wrong. Can you afford to be wrong and continue to speak against Dorje Shugden? What happen if later when the ban is lifted, when the truth is revealed, you realise that you have been completely wrong about Dorje Shugden?
We respect your devotion to HH Dalai Lama. We respect your beliefs. Please respect others’ beliefs. Please respect Dorje Shugden practitioners. Aren’t we all in the same Gelugpa family?
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I find the justifications presented aimless and without merit to continue to rationalize the activities of this dalia, lama are as insane and pointless as his words are to justify his continued existence as any kind of leader whatsoever. Whilst the Tibetans may continue to cling to his image as meaningful. I find this idea of a Big Picture completely ludicrous and demeaning to any rational thinking person. Buddhism is based upon logic and common sense. Not a juxtaposition for inmates in a lunatic asylum. However, I do think it possible, he is perfect mirror for the corruption of our times and his relationship to one of the most corrupt governments in the world and the admiration he has garnered as a tool for the CIA is actually perfect in it's presentation. I find the Big Picture will be the final and complete comprehension that this dalia lama will be recognized as one of history's better ruses, as the truth is his historical predecessor had the Wisdom Buddha Drakpa Gylatshen murdered in order to seize complete control the Tibetans and maintained the population as a pool for slave labor and treated no better than chattel.This Big Picture idea is ludicrous. My Big Picture is one that has absolute pity for this pawn of the Eight Ruling Families for the last 400 years.
I do feel sorry for this man and wish him all the best in his next lifetime. He as we all do , deserves our pity and hope he recovers from the Three Poisons and emanates loving kindness for all concerned instead of the vile and venom he spews with his lies about Dorje Shugden and his true Devotees.
The Buddha never supported Deception as a method to assist the Sentient Beings on the path to enlightenment~~May Tenzin Gyatso Norbu live a long life to reach clarity for his actions and words
I have withdrawn my energy from this schism, as I believe the more input we give this ruse is as ludicrous as two moons circling the earth.
The only solution is Loving Kindness~~ All the rest is delusion and insanity~~May Love Prevail and the Suffering Cease All Around the World of Sentient Beings!~!
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Dear BW,
Thanks for your introduction.
I support all dharma practice, but Shugden spirit is not Dharma practice. Discouraging involvement with Shugden spirit does not damage my commitments to my teacher. I agree with my teacher when he warns us against this spirit.
I have disparaged no one. I have disparaged no Dharma. I have spoken against the Shugden spirit. I do so because I want the Dharma to not be tainted.
By promoting hate and negativity about Dorje Shugden, you already are tainting your own mind with hate. The time that it took you to write the many posts you made here can be used to study Nagajurna's works instead, which are more beneficial and will give your more time for your Dharma practice as your posts do not contain enough facts to back up your claims and everyone knows.
Not to be rude, but in my many years of studying the Dharma, I have not found one passage or sentence that talks about being a crusader to worry about the Dharma practice of others and worry about what they are practicing and whether or not they are right or wrong and that we get merits for discouraging and damaging them in every way possible until they give up whatever it is that they are doing.
Why do you think the CTA leaves many "cults" alone? Why do you think Buddhists rarely do anything about them and nobody storms into a cult center and burn the whole place down? If people have the karma to be with a certain teacher or practice, they just do and to discourage them to do so would be to discourage and disconnect them from their spiritual connection. How in any way that it is Dharma?!
Im saying all this, that is even if Dorje Shugden is a spirit as you have said, even if he is i dont think you have any business in discouraging others to do so, neither does anyone else, because Dharma practice varies from individual and nobody really has any right to tell one person or the other that their Dharma practice is wrong and that they should stop or else there will be no salvation.
Being disrespectful to others will only garner you more negativities and obstacles to Dharma practice.
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Dear TG,
Thank you very much for your letters. You state your opinion very well and it is a pleasure to read your thoughts although I may not agree with you.
But there are a few observations I have made:
1. The fact that this post and discussions herein have gone on for so long is wonderful. That fact that you are still being allowed to enter a site populated by practitioners whose enlightened Protector you unashamedly deem to be a spirit, is wonderful. This I presume, is due to the goodwill of the administrators of this site, and the general believe that everyone is entitled to their opinion and should be allowed to express and practice their belief without fear of harm.
Should this site be run by people of similar witch-hunting mind as the CTA, you will no doubt be hunted down, beaten and persecuted. Such is the way and treatment of the CTA towards people who do not surrender to their bullying, as I have observed.
You here, are the beneficiary of the dharma that the people here practice.
2. When you accused forumers here as being disharmonious, it got my interest and so I went to check.
What I discovered was a vibrant forum where people voiced their thoughts and opinions. Someone like you posits an opinion and someone else raises doubts and challenges that opinion. Back and forth they go and in the meantime, people like me observe and learn.
We expand our mind and we are prompted to analyze what is being said and we gain better clarity of the subject matters being discussed.
The “disharmony” you accused this forum of having is actually the debate that takes place at the heart of all practitioners’ training. This “disharmony” is same in spirit and purpose as the debates that take place in the monastery courtyards, as an integral component of a monk’s learning.
One other thing stood out. The ONLY difference in opinion is the role and true objective of His Holiness The Dalai Lama in imposing the ban.
There is no dissention in the belief that Dore Shugden is a Dharma Protector and an enlightened Buddha.
How mistake you are TG.
3. “If Shugden is so powerful why does he let this be”?
Are you seriously asking this question? Is the Dharma you learn one that makes you comfortable in this life? Is the Dharma you learn one that keeps you in your easy zone and never challenges you but instead keeps you locked into the very sensation that traps you in Samsara?
TG, you remind me of the Romans soldiers and the Pharisees as they mocked Jesus after nailing him to the cross. They said if he was the Son of God, why did his Father let this happen?
Well, we know now that had Jesus gotten off the cross, there would have been no religion based on faith and readiness to undergo trials for one’s belief.
The practice of the great Dorje Shugden is not one of wanting wealth and comfort and safety in our meaningless and mundane lives. That would be like worshipping any worldly spirit. If Dorje Shugden were to be merely a worldly spirit, then it may be obliged to show it power by manifesting fake victories for it practitioners in worldly affairs.
When we rely on this Buddha, we are prepared for Dorje Shugden to arrange circumstances that are BEST and most CONDUCIVE for our dharma practice to grow and be strong. If what is conducive for our spiritual growth is to undergo difficulties in order for our minds to transform, then so be it. Is there an easy path to enlightenment?
Trials and struggles like the ones Shugdenpas are undergoing build perseverance and from perseverance, faith is strengthened and it is this strength that keeps the Dharma pure otherwise the teachings of the Buddha would bend and fold at every resistance in order to pass. Our faith must hold in spite of any resistance, not because there is no resistance. This is logic. This strength that Shugdenpas show keep Buddhism pure.
This difficult walk and this suffering TG, puts us on the very same path and experience as the Lord Buddha who also suffered in pursuing the truth. For that I am happy for every suffering practitioner of Dorje Shugden.
It is whilst reading a paragraph on your post, when you asked why doesn’t Dorje Shugden “fight or challenge” the Dalai Lama, that I became even more convinced that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha. Dorje Shugden doesn’t fight the Dalai Lama because (i) it is not in the nature of a Buddha to fight. The Buddha did not get up to hurl arrows back at Mara. On the other hand, it would be in the nature of minor gods and worldly spirits to fight.
And (ii) Dorje Shugden doesn’t fight the Dalai Lama because he wants us to have the important realization that His Holiness The Dalai Lama is NOT THE ENEMY. No one external to us is ever the enemy. The enemy of Dorje Shugden practitioners is the weak mind that picks samsaric comforts; it is the feeble mind that refuses to undergo difficulties for the Dharma; it is the wavering and disloyal mind that has no faith in the Guru and the lineage. It is the mind that choses mundane comforts over spiritual growth. It is the mind that makes a mockery of oaths made to our Guru in pure devotion.
Take note, the enemy of Dorje Shugden is the very same enemy of the Dharma. Not The Dalai Lama. So why fight His Holiness?
4. Is Dorje Shugden’s practice growing? Definitely, but not just in numbers.
Numbers alone do not indicate that the religion is growing. Nor do numbers indicate that the belief is correct. For if that were to be the case, then we should all lay down our malas, bells and vajras and instead bow towards Mecca.
We all know that we are live in degenerate times where popular lifestyles and the pursuit of material wants take people further and further away from the Dharma. At times likes this you need strong practitioners of Dharma to uphold and spread the Buddha’s teachings while keeping it pure to the Vajrayana tradition. You need practitioners who are unafraid of difficulties and hardships, which are unshakeable in faith and unwavering in upholding the greatest pillar in the Tradition, i.e. Guru devotion, to spread the teachings.
For pure Buddhism to grow, you need to have practitioners of Dorje Shugden. How else can pure Buddhism grow in degenerate times?
So, what was the purpose of the Ban? If His Holiness The Dalai Lama is the emanation of Avalokiteshvara, which I believe His Holiness to be, then there is only one logical answer:
To separate the wheat from the chaff; to separate those with Guru Devotion from those who are corrupt in their devotion; to isolate those with pure faith from those without. And to show present and future students where to find Gurus who practice and therefore can genuinely teach the undisputed foundation of spiritual attainments – Guru Devotion.
Time will show the 14th Dalai Lama Jetsun Jamphel Ngawang Lobsang Yeshe Tenzin Gyatso to be the greatest of all in wielding the powerful instrument of skillful means. Look at his result in spreading Buddhism into the most populous country through the vehicle of the Dorje Shugden ban. A country whose Government once viewed religion to be poison, now embraces and even promotes the teachings of the Je Tsongkhapa.
5. TG, I do agree with you on one point. That is, true practitioners of Dorje Shugden should do more to take this cause into the world media, into the streets and into our personal network.
You are correct. No matter how much has been done, there is always more we all can do. Thank you for the reminder.
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For us and for everyone else to check, growing in a Dharma way is very different than growing in a spiritual way. For one, numbers are not the issue here. It is quality over quantity. It would not benefit anyone or Buddhists in any way if everyone was a buddhist but nobody carries themselves as one or does not act accordingly to what the Dharma taught. If that is the case, then it does not even represent Buddhism well.
Being a follower of Dorje Shugden does not mean that we are special or that we are against the Dalai Lama, it is just that we happen to be people who value our teachers who has given us so much compassion, care and direct teachings more than we value the words of another teacher who is more popular but has not benefitted us directly much. Because it is the teacher that is after all Vajradhara himself.
It has been mentioned repeatedly that we need to have certain qualities and meet certain criteria in order to be considered as real Buddhists, such as accepting the law of karma (and even then, there are funny people out there who says you're not obligated to accept anything to be buddhists....), so what makes us Dorje Shugden practitioners is not praying to Dorje Shugden but keeping our samaya, vows, promises, faith and applying the teachings.
Dorje Shugden is not and will not die and neither will his practice simply because there are very dedicated people who are not swayed by political influences and give up on Dharma just because it would be a lot more easier to do so. We may go low for a while and keep a low profile but the practice still keeps going on and it will grow from strength to strength because dedicated people will always attract the same kind of people with them.
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Tenzin Gyatso.... how you spoil the name of the very person that you are trying to protect and defend. Do you think the Dalai Lama really wants someone to go around destroying other people's faith in their practice, creating doubt in people in their teachers and practices etc? I don't think so. You show the world that your teacher has taught you badly, to go around criticising other practices and lamas.
Did you think for a moment that the "lack of news" on the Shugden front is precisely proof that it is successful. There is stability, there is calm and harmony. Shugdenpas are showing the world who they really are - peaceful, patient, tolerant and strong practitioners. It seems only the Dalai Lama supporters continue to vent their venomous spleen at the world, making hateful remarks towards Shugdenpas or anyone who doesn't follow THEIR ideology and THEIR practices. What a shameful reflection you make of your own teachers - as if this is the kind of intolerant person that the Dalai Lama has taught you to be.
Someone has mentioned earlier the growth of Shugden monasteries around India - Shar Gaden and Serpom. Also, huge institutions around the world, such as Serkong Tritul's enormous centers / monasteries in Taiwan (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=169 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=169)) or Gongsar Rinpoche's new temple in Lumbini Nepal (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=6817 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=6817)). Perhaps part of the "quietness" is in the Shugdenpas just doing their practices and looking towards other more peaceful ways of lifting the ban, by strengthening their practice and making it grow in other ways. There are reports all the time on this website of people distributing brochures, there's the growth of an online store, which I believe has met with great response from people making purchases of Shugden prayer items for their practice, there is this forum which only sees more and more participation of people who are faithful practitioners. This may not be shouting in the streets and picketing, but it is wrong to say that nothing is being done. There is plenty being done, but unlike certain people on the anti-shugden camp, we don't need to put anyone down or shout about it.
Sometimes, silence really is louder than words.
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Tenzin Gyatso.... how you spoil the name of the very person that you are trying to protect and defend. Do you think the Dalai Lama really wants someone to go around destroying other people's faith in their practice, creating doubt in people in their teachers and practices etc? I don't think so. You show the world that your teacher has taught you badly, to go around criticising other practices and lamas.
Did you think for a moment that the "lack of news" on the Shugden front is precisely proof that it is successful. There is stability, there is calm and harmony. Shugdenpas are showing the world who they really are - peaceful, patient, tolerant and strong practitioners. It seems only the Dalai Lama supporters continue to vent their venomous spleen at the world, making hateful remarks towards Shugdenpas or anyone who doesn't follow THEIR ideology and THEIR practices. What a shameful reflection you make of your own teachers - as if this is the kind of intolerant person that the Dalai Lama has taught you to be.
Someone has mentioned earlier the growth of Shugden monasteries around India - Shar Gaden and Serpom. Also, huge institutions around the world, such as Serkong Tritul's enormous centers / monasteries in Taiwan ([url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=169[/url] ([url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=169[/url])) or Gongsar Rinpoche's new temple in Lumbini Nepal ([url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=6817[/url] ([url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=6817[/url])). Perhaps part of the "quietness" is in the Shugdenpas just doing their practices and looking towards other more peaceful ways of lifting the ban, by strengthening their practice and making it grow in other ways. There are reports all the time on this website of people distributing brochures, there's the growth of an online store, which I believe has met with great response from people making purchases of Shugden prayer items for their practice, there is this forum which only sees more and more participation of people who are faithful practitioners. This may not be shouting in the streets and picketing, but it is wrong to say that nothing is being done. There is plenty being done, but unlike certain people on the anti-shugden camp, we don't need to put anyone down or shout about it.
Sometimes, silence really is louder than words.
On that note, he also seems to try to pressure and bully us to accept his view and when everyone refuses he seems to get frustrated as well. It is not a good reflection of the person whose view he's trying so hard to protect and defend. I do commend his efforts tho because without his writing we would not be able to learn so much about how then anti Shugden people think.
As time passes there will be more and more Dorje Shugden monasteries and this website will report them, and they will be so much bigger than the monasteries of the politically correct ones for a few reasons: because the ban helped trained the Shugdenpas to be more resilient and resourceful, and also because Dorje Shugden's energy and force to make the Dharma grow is very strong.
the ban will be lifted in 4-5 years and that is not exactly a long time. The ban is coming to an end very very soon and when that happens interesting things in many Buddhist centers will happen and many of them will come groveling back to Dorje Shugden for help and support and those who have been supporting Dorje Shugden all along will just grow bigger than those who prefer to be politically correct than to follow their teachers.
At this time it would be really fun to see what will happen to people like TG who are so against Dorje Shugden now. Will they eat their words and regret what they did now, or would they go against HHDL now (since he already lifted the ban and would probably promote him even further). Hmm. Interesting scenario. When the ban is lifted I'll bring out my popcorn and watch.
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Someone has mentioned earlier the growth of Shugden monasteries around India - Shar Gaden and Serpom. Also, huge institutions around the world, such as Serkong Tritul's enormous centers / monasteries in Taiwan ([url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=169[/url] ([url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=169[/url])) or Gongsar Rinpoche's new temple in Lumbini Nepal ([url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=6817[/url] ([url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=6817[/url])). Perhaps part of the "quietness" is in the Shugdenpas just doing their practices and looking towards other more peaceful ways of lifting the ban, by strengthening their practice and making it grow in other ways. There are reports all the time on this website of people distributing brochures, there's the growth of an online store, which I believe has met with great response from people making purchases of Shugden prayer items for their practice, there is this forum which only sees more and more participation of people who are faithful practitioners. This may not be shouting in the streets and picketing, but it is wrong to say that nothing is being done. There is plenty being done, but unlike certain people on the anti-shugden camp, we don't need to put anyone down or shout about it.
Sometimes, silence really is louder than words.
Dear Beggar,
YES!!!! Sometimes, silence is really is louder than words. I cannot help but agree with you.
Just look at the current Trijang Rinpoche. .......it seems like there is not much activity with Trijang Rinpoche but I have heard that he has started to travel as of last year which is a good sign of the Lama progress. Yes, no doubt he is still young but the final word will be when Trijang Rinpoche opens his mouth.
Just look at his achievements in all his previous life
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=12916 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=12916)
In this current incarnation, no doubt he is still young, I have seen his teaching, I have heard from the monks and his students what he has done. To me, it is definitely the action of the same Trijang Rinpoche's mind stream from all his previous life.
With regards to Mr Gyatso question, who will take over Geshe Kelsang when he dies......... not necessary that someone replaces him physically. But I truly believe all the lama are working together to spread Shugden. Geshe Kelsang has pave the way for a lot of younger lamas to spread Shugden. He has built a very strong platform for Shugden practitioners.
How high lamas gather together to spread Shugden is a amazing tactic for the sake of all sentient beings.
With regards to the
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Oh seems like TG has backed down...
With so many proofs to refute his claims, TG can't seem to find anymore 'proofs' to back his initial statements... how pity!
From the beginning, all his so-called claims were his own bias arguments, nothing solid. This website itself is definitely a proof of how strong DS practice is now... look at all the articles and reports on the activities of DS practice. The latest being this article about the DS initiation given to thousands of Tibetans in Amdo, Tibet.
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=8039 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=8039)
Just take a look at the numbers of DS practitioners in this video, no need to argue anymore TG... just wave your white flag. Period.
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Oh seems like TG has backed down...
With so many proofs to refute his claims, TG can't seem to find anymore 'proofs' to back his initial statements... how pity!
From the beginning, all his so-called claims were his own bias arguments, nothing solid. This website itself is definitely a proof of how strong DS practice is now... look at all the articles and reports on the activities of DS practice. The latest being this article about the DS initiation given to thousands of Tibetans in Amdo, Tibet.
[url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=8039[/url] ([url]http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=8039[/url])
Just take a look at the numbers of DS practitioners in this video, no need to argue anymore TG... just wave your white flag. Period.
In more ways than one, TG represents the archetypical anti Dorje Shugden crusader. They tend to know only one side of the story, and are generally not well informed about the entire issue yet they do their best to discourage others from Dorje Shugden and some of them resort to brow beating or even damage others emotionally, spiritually or psychologically to get things to go their way.
However when questioned further and presented with evidence that goes against what they believe, they tend to back out and keep quiet because they dont know much or they dont know better to back their claims. They usually believe in something because someone said so without much knowledge or research beforehand on the subject matter. Its their faith and fervor that fuels them, not knowledge and wisdom.
So therefore, when someone produces facts and logical explanations to counter them, they tend to repeat themselves, break down or get frustrated with the whole process and eventually give up and perhaps in a later time in the future realize their mistakes as logic and knowledge leave stronger imprints on a person's mind as opposed to temporary fervor.
Knowledge and wisdom will always overcome warped truths and smokescreens. There must be a reason for HHDL to give misinterpretations of masters who are "against" Dorje Shugden as opposed to "solid proof" (because there is none to start with) so that the whole ban will wash off easily people's minds when the ban is lifted and the truth is told. It would be fun to see where people like TG stands after that.
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From the Shugden camp, the truth is there is nothing happening anymore. Everything is basically died or at a standstill. Shugden cannot win over what is correct.
All the monasteries have been purified of Shugden's influence and nothing can oppose HHDL's compassionate and brave stance. I am sure it was no easy task to remove the Shugden influence. But HHDL recieves no benefits for himself by doing this. No money, no reputation and therefore it must be for the welfare of the general practitioners. I still say Kalarupa is not dead, not ineffective, and should be the focussed practice of Gelugs as a protector. Read up on Kalarupa's qualities, nature and function especially in relations to one of the three main protectors of the Lam Rim and Lam Rim lineage. Understand Kalarupa better.
He is not only the protector of the Gelug lineage, Lam Rim but also the protector of the Yamantaka tantras. If you engage in Yamantaka practice, Kalarupa comes as a practice automatically as he is very important for removing obstacles on both the outer and inner levels. Inner being attachment to subtle grasping of the I which is the root cause of samsara. Kalarupa is no other than Yamantaka in a protective form. I was explained this by a Geshe at the Tibetan Library. It blew my mind away and thought to share it here. ;)
It's not too late to take heed and adopt Kalarupa.
Dear Tenzin Gyatso,
Can we just take heed and adopt some other deities as we like when we encounter another deity's practices and give up the ones given by our Guru?
Can we give up on our Guru when someone criticise our Guru? In that case, then perhaps I should drop my Guru who stops practising Dorje Shugden and adopt a Guru who does?
Can we give up on Vajrayogini (Trijang Rinpoche) and adopt Avalokiteshvara (His Holiness the Dalai Lama instead despite our samaya with Trijang Rinpoche?
Also, why not choose 6 arm Mahakala the protector of many lineages (Sakya, Nyingma, Gelug and Kagyu) who is definitely "better" since he is also beign practised in Chinese and Japanese Buddhism compared to this "lesser known" Kalarupa?
These are not possible due to the commitment and promise that one has made to the Guru to uphold the practise given by the Guru. Some, their Gurus have gone into clear light or passed away! We have no choice to pick and choose.
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Lord Dorje Shugden's practise is definitely not dying, in fact, more and more people are practising this sacred practise. Please go ahead and ask Dorje Shugden practitioners, I am 100% sure that they only receive benefits from this compassionate Protector.
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Because we have more affinity with Dorje Shugden's practice will grow bigger and bigger. Of course there some who has connection to him. Denying it doesn't it make the affinity become less.
Besides what is being popular or less popular have to do with whether the practice is good and beneficial for others rather than you?
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The importance is not whether Shugden's practice is dying or growing, but what the Shugdenpas have gained in the practice. Lots of merits to have suffered for their faith especially those directly discriminated and divided from others and shunned upon.
Another point which seem to be missed is how is anyone to know the actual number of practitioners when so many among the Tibetans under CTA jurisdiction are hiding.
As a Shugden practitioner, I do not worry about the practice dying but only for the freedom to worship without fear of negative repercussion. Let the freedom happen and we shall then count the numbers.