dorjeshugden.com
General Buddhism => General Buddhism => Topic started by: Tammy on May 12, 2012, 03:07:19 AM
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Recently I have witness many unpleasant moments in one of my friends' church. I was invited to join they Sunday mass and was horrified to see the way some 'senior' members literary yelling at those who were relatively new to the congregation. It was so loud and rude and was in public. The younger member was not given a chance to explain him!!!
And, you may ask, "what was the reason for the outburst?" apparently the younger member was late for a training session held easier and he was trying to explain the reason for being late. After talking to the younger member, my friend found out that his reason being late was rather valid.
The younger member had since have doubts. Why cant there be a better method to deal with the incident? Why do many of the senior be so unpleasant?
I would think twice if my friend extend another invitation this Sunday... :o :o
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I understand about the confusion. Everywhere we go, we see disharmony in organizations but that doesn't mean that all of them are the same. There will definitely be rotten apples here and there. If those apples are so perfect, they don't need to go to a church in the 1st place. For whatever reasons, we must always practice patience and understanding as part of our mind transformation. It is taught in all religions BUT do all of us really practice it?? Perhaps the 'senior' member was trying to teach the younger member something, that we do not know of OR the young member have had this problem before.
You can also refer to this post for similar issue.
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1875.0 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1875.0)
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Dear Tammy,
I don't think that you should base your judgement on whether to go or not over just one incident between members of the church. I think what is more important is that if you value the teachings of the religion, and focus on that itself as opposed to the members within the organisation, that would be a much better alternative. Why have a row between 2 people stop you from seeking spiritual solace?
With regards to the senior member being so rude to the junior one, I guess we can't judge just from that one incident. There may be some history, maybe the senior member had something bad happen which made him/her lose her cool, I dunno.. sometimes it takes a deeper understanding than just taking things on a surface level
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Yes, I agree with Manjushri.
Why let an incident between 2 persons stop you from going to Church? There is no perfect person. In fact, you must continue to attend services, just so that you can see the changes that will befall those 2 friends of Church - how they will realise (with help of other friends) that the outburst was just at a moment of anger, for the younger member's lateness has caused other people to wait for him. Or maybe he had been late frequently for most events and the elder was just trying to make him realise what he did was wrong?
If you allow that incident to stop you from going, then you would be depriving yourself of a chance to attend mass.
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In every incident, it is likely we have two different stories.. so to say we have "two sides of the coin"
Everyone will have their own valid reasons and often times, seniors will get away with whatever behaviors just because they are deemed to "know better" while the juniors tend to get some sympathy because they "may not know better"
Whatever it is, public perception of any organization is important especially in a religious organization. Sometimes, a 10 seconds outburst will take 10 months to repair…if lucky! Is it worth it?
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On one hand, we can't expect everyone who goes to church or temples every weekend to be perfect saints.
On another hand, we shouldn't judge a church or temple or religion based on the people we see who attend the church / temple or practice the religion. One extreme jihadist doesn't render the whole of Islam and all muslims as totally violent or illogical.
On yet another hand, if the seniors of a church / temple are consistently treating juniors in a rude or angry manner, then there may some problem with the church or temple. but it is not a good excuse to stop practising the religion. It is up to the observer to check out other churches/temples to see if such behaviour is present there.
If we let a negative incident stop our practice, then we are the ones who lose. Rather than seeing something negative and judge, complain, but do nothing about it, take action and responsibility over your own spiritual growth.
Its funny how so many people can tolerate demanding, unreasonable, greedy bosses, continue to work for them even though they know full well of the bosses' shortcomings, but they would still stay on with the company and continue to serve the company. But when it comes to religion, once we see the archbishop or pastor as not what we expect them to be, we just leave.
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No one is perfect. If everyone were to act perfectly well according to our perception as to how one should act in the church or center then we would not have churches or centers around...none are free from these problem. If everyone is perfect, we do need to go for any sunday services too. Why the hang up? Do not use it as a deterrent for oneself of not attending the sunday services just because of that one person. If we see 'wrong', we should use it as the basis for us to practise, transform and be the beacon to others.
We must search into ourselves at all times and check the level of our own practice and motivation. Ample knowledge and skillful methods are necessary to be applied and to guide others as people’s spiritualities are very delicate and must be handled with great care and compassion.
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Not every one who go to church or temple are perfect. In fact, whether in church or temple we can find difficult people. They are there for a reason, to seek spiritual help. If they are so perfect and saintly, they would not have gone in the first place. By not attending the Sunday service, is equivalent to running away and trying to avoid the problem. If we feel that it is wrong, we should look deeper and try to understand the cause of the outburst. This outburst is like a lesson for us not to behave like them. How would we react if we are in the seniors' position? Will be better or worse than them?
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I agree that no one is perfect and that we should not let one incident deter us from going to church. Also, I agree with DSFriend that it is not worth losing one's temper for 10 seconds which takes 10 months to repair. In Buddhism, one moment of anger is enough to erase all our merits accumulated in this life and in our past lives.
First, ask yourself why you go to church. Certainly not because of other church members! You do not go to church on the condition that they are nice to you! What is your purpose of going to church? Are you benefitting from the teachings? Do the teachings make you a better person? If so, don't let that incident be an obstacle.
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In every incident, it is likely we have two different stories.. so to say we have "two sides of the coin"
Everyone will have their own valid reasons and often times, seniors will get away with whatever behaviors just because they are deemed to "know better" while the juniors tend to get some sympathy because they "may not know better"
Whatever it is, public perception of any organization is important especially in a religious organization. Sometimes, a 10 seconds outburst will take 10 months to repair…if lucky! Is it worth it?
I totally agree with you on this. Being a senior in religious organization does not grant them the rights to an outburst be it to other senior members or juniors. It is upmost important that the religious place is most sacred and mindfullness must be practiced at all times as the centre may have new seekers wanting to know the centre. With outburst and rudeness from especially seniors with new people around will only give them a negative impression. Yes nobody is perfect and all religious centre will have their problems and issues. By knowing that all are not pefect, Which reaction would you choose if this happened to you? An outburst or a better way? The results depends on your decision.
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As senior members in a religious organization,they should examine whether their action, whether connected to body or speech is likely to be harmful to one self or others.The resultant of an action depends on the intention more than the action itself.
So I totally agree that seniors should be more mindful towards new people.A religious centre is a sacred place and should be filled with harmonious atmosphere instead of a unnecessary outburst which could plant negative thoughts on new people.What would you do,if you are faced with a similar situation?
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I agree that no one is perfect and that we should not let one incident deter us from going to church. Also, I agree with DSFriend that it is not worth losing one's temper for 10 seconds which takes 10 months to repair. In Buddhism, one moment of anger is enough to erase all our merits accumulated in this life and in our past lives.
First, ask yourself why you go to church. Certainly not because of other church members! You do not go to church on the condition that they are nice to you! What is your purpose of going to church? Are you benefitting from the teachings? Do the teachings make you a better person? If so, don't let that incident be an obstacle.
Agreed, however that is with some knowledge and wisdom. How about for the public with different mind set, who are in need of spiritual help, who are seeking, who have no spriritual knowlege or whatsoever? They may find that centre hostile and unwelcoming by observing it member's attitude and behavior. Those have been to the centre and have learned may not see it negatively and take it as practice, but we cannot assume everyone have a similar mind set, therefore everyone in the centre especially the senior ones must behave properly as they are representatives of the centre.
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Classic case of airing one's laundry in public... I believe very much in living by example... hence if a 'church' were to act in such a way publicly it is a shame because of the perception it shows especially a negative one in the scenario above.
This example really irritates me especially when it comes from a so called spiritual place. If one does not respect the people around them at least respect the divine in which the structure was built to represent or revere.
Sad that, we are so habitual in our nature, that we cannot refrain from or control our emotions or anger in public... I dread to think where this selfish nature would lead us in our next life. Scary that something so seemingly 'simple' has such serious consequences...
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Whilst most agreed that no one is perfect and that is precisely why they are also seekers of spirituality. Some of these seniors tend to feel that by airing dirty laundry in public empowers them and make themselves feel good because they can do so sitting on their moral high horse.
It is an undeniable fact that in most of mankinds organisational culture to have this senior knows best culture and that juniors are suppose to just take in the bullying. Nothing new ! But wait a minute , should this be encourage or even accepted in a spiritual organisation? Are we suppose to be there to cultivate good human qualities instead ? Aren't those who were practicing earlier suppose to be good role models ? It speaks volumes of that organisation, if those who were trained earlier and longer are not good examples themselves.
There are better ways to spread the good teachings and that is by being good ourselves. Religious faith or whatever faith for that matter cannot be won by fear ! That area is for terrorist like Al Qaida to practice. So if religious enforcement is about hurling abuses , threats , punishment and etc then we know something is not right.
Yes , there are other good Muslims practicing their faith in harmony.
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If we feel that it is wrong, we should look deeper and try to understand the cause of the outburst. This outburst is like a lesson for us not to behave like them. How would we react if we are in the seniors' position? Will be better or worse than them?
Dear pgdharma,
I can't agree with you on this, no matter what is our problem, we should make it a point to solve it, face our own demon, instead of letting it out on others. There are many ways to skin a cat (sorry for the analogy), I sincerely wish those who holds high position in any organization (churches included!!) would take a deep breath when you are in the brink of loosing your temper, and be NICE!! It does not cost you anything to be NICE..
And LISTEN to what others have to say.. nobody is perfect and our responsibility as dharma brothers and sisters to support each other in our spiritual path.. the last thing we need is to create an environment of FEAR in the centre! People go to church and spiritual centres to seek peace!
Look around us, there are many centres grow in leaps and bounce and there are centres which are stagnant in membership growth - people go for places where they feel welcome and keep their distance from those which are 'cold' and 'hard'... time to reflect and change.
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I agree with Tammy, people come to Church is to find peace, to find a place to learn the teaching, they are not here to seek for trouble / problem. No one wants problem.
No doubt, we have flaws, we are not perfect, but is this an excuse for us to continue behave like this? If everyone in the church is happily acting as whom we are just like before coming into the church, then why are we here? Where is the transformation? The image we portray to the new people is, the teaching you get in this church is not effective?
For someone who is new to spiritualism, they will not understand so much, yes, this could be only 1 – 2 person in the church acting this way, but you know what? From the eye of outsider, even it is only 1 – 2 person, but a senior already represent the centre, because they are the one we will go to when we have problem, so, with such senior, how can I go to him/her again when there is doubts?
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Having harmony is not merely in actions or if we are shouting or if we are cold... Harmony is a choice and if chosen needs much determination to develop, nurture and practice... In general, people have a fixed judgement and expectation that a place of worship (church, temple, mosque and what not) is a place where is everything is calm and serene... This is not the case as long as the practitioners are human who come with the baggage of issues.
Harmony is a mindset and choice and must be so even outside of a holy place. The sense of harmony may perhaps be rare in today's world since we are afterall surrounded by stressed people, depressed people and angersome people... The side effects of life's suffering. I strongly believe that Harmony is key to many problems we face today.
At work, if we have an attitude for harmony, we would not let difference of opinions get personal and take it out on each other. At home, if we have harmony family members are more tolerant and patient with one another. Of course in church we will not shout at one another... All this we agree, yes?
Now, because there is just some people that do not get kindness and even take advantage of it, do you just keep quiet because of harmony? Would it serve this person? Sometimes different methods which may not "look" harmonious is needed to "break" the selfish habit. What is the motivation? If the motivation of a person is for my good and I am a selfish being, I would like someone to shout at me till I wake up. Then I would have the harmony with people in my life because someone cared to scream at me to get me better.
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there are many things to view for this situation.
As a senior member of church or whatever organization, we should NOT think that we are in power as we are senior and we have right to do anything. People respect senior because of actions not because of how long we have been there or in service.
And how many people will be inspire or go away, one of the factor is the senior. If the senior, not nature junior and some more act not correctly, instead of junior want to continure and participate in the church, junior will be chase away by those wrongly actions.
As a junior member of church or whatever organiztion, we should not just give up in our spiritual path easily, since we have observe this church and etc so don't just let one or two persons whom not act correctly demotivate us to not participate or leave from this church as our goal is bigger and higher than that. Don't let small issue stop us to go a great things.
As a friend of junior, we should talk with junior to let them see the different views of this situation which will help to change their mind to loose trust in religion.
If in buddhist i will recommend the junior to read 8 verses of mind transformation which will help junior to be free from delusion mind and wrong reactions.
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To me this behavior is NOT acceptable. Yes, I understand that there are many sorts of people in a church, or temple, etc. There will be and will always be. What I am saying is that the other senior members should not allow this to happen. They should have a talk with this person and if necessary ban him/her from attending the church until he changes his behavior.
Senior members are meant to set good examples to the younger members and the new members. With behaviors like this, less and less new people will come to the church. How every member of a church acts is a reflection of the church and in turn is polluting the religion.
In the Buddhist context, one creates a lot of negative karma by chasing people away from meeting and studying the Dharma. It is very negative consequences indeed.
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Some people see the avoidance of conflict as maintaining harmony. Others see conflict as a means of finding solutions required for fostering harmony. For me it is not so much what we do or do not do, to create an impression of harmony. Rather harmony is when there are common goals that everyone abides by, and there is the understanding that there are differences in opinions and views but there is also the acceptance that "I" may not necessarily be right.
Disharmony therefore is present when everyone individually thinks, "I" am right and the rest are wrong. And this thought is forced upon others.
To me, a situation that is not to my taste (e.g. church members hurling words at one another, or a senior member telling off another member) does not necessarily mean that the church is disharmonious. Conflicts are everywhere regardless of whether it is expressed overtly or not.
I subscribe to the school that states that sometimes conflicts are necessary to keep harmony, even if in the process “dirty laundry” is aired. It is not about giving good impressions so much.
In any case, I don’t think it is correct to judge a church just by one incident. The most seemingly disharmonious people may be the most sincere about harmony to the point where they are prepared to fight to maintain it.
Not everything is as it seems.
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As a senior member should have the experience to handle matters maturely. I understand that nothing is perfect and I’m not referring that churches or any spiritual organization must be just act like heaven. But as spiritual organization isn’t that we should give good impression to people and to let them have a good feel of the environment/place. Spiritual organization/centre is where people would come and find solace, answer for individual problem, if they can’t feel the harmony and peace at the place obviously people would not come. What is that place for then?
It doesn’t mean that we sweep away things under the carpet or hide the ugly things away from people but let say the seniors member has all the right to do so due to a valid reason it should be done professionally because he/she is someone with a high status in the spiritual organization which will give impact towards their own action. Not everyone is at the level to understand the situation and as I mentioned, if the person deserve to be scolded in order to realize by all mean go ahead but to be carried out in a right way where it will not give a negative impact to public.
We must always be sensitive because if our action is spiritual mean is to benefit others and not our own selfish satisfactions. If as a senior members doesn’t show a good example it will directly impact the junior either act like one or people will just go away.
Then we check again what all this action is for? Who are we benefiting and who are we chasing away?
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The six rules of harmony are set by Buddha for his followers to follow in order to bring about unity and harmony.
Unity in cohabitation: Work together, live together in unity and love each other like brothers and sisters.
Unity in communication: Do not say harmful things; do not quarrel to bring about anger, which may lead to fighting.
Unity in thought: Consider every person’s idea and work out a common solution to satisfy all parties. Only can tasks be accomplished.
Unity in observing the precepts: Always encourage and help each other to practice Buddhism.
Unity in sharing: Benefits gained by an individual or by groups must be shared equally with others. This not only refers to money but also any kind of recognition.
Unity in view and explanation: Share your knowledge and understanding with others so everyone can improve together and reach the same level of understanding.