dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: tsangpakarpo on May 06, 2012, 02:29:05 PM
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If you are a true Dorje Shugden practitioner or rather if you're a person who can see the larger picture you would know that the Dalai Lama enforced the ban on Dorje Shugden's practice for a reason we might not be able to understand at this moment. Some has said it is to spread the practice of Dorje Shugden, especially in China, the catalyst of growth in this era.
Or is there reason as stated, Dorje Shugden harms the life of the Dalai Lama?
The ban has been going on for quite some time now. Many people have suffered because of it. Some even sacrificed their lives to protect the practice. Many have gained negative karma by criticizing the practice as well as ill treating the practitioners. That's of course if you believe Dorje Shugden is a Buddha. I am personally a believer, obviously. Can you imagine the amount of negative karma these people obtained by destroying statues, thangkhas, pictures and other Dorje Shugden related holy items? I do not want to imagine where they'll end up in their future lives.
So you see, many people are affected because of this ban. My question is, is the ban really necessary to spread the growth of Dorje Shugden? Couldn't the Dalai Lama come out with another game plan which will cause less casualties, less anger and less pain?
(Note: I am not questioning the Dalai Lama and the ban but would love to know everyone's thoughts on this)
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Yes the ban is necessary!!
Points to be considered..
- As you mentioned, China is the catalyst of growth..In this case, the Chinese dislike Dalai Lama. Therefore, they will adopt the practice knowing that DS causes harm to DL as said by DL himself. When the Chinese adopts the practice it will then grow like wild fire spreading to the entire world simply because they are the center of attention right now.
- When the ban is lifted, DS will be a star! A star in the sense that before the ban, only the Gelugs practice and know about DS but as the ban is on-going now, we clearly know that DS is a worldwide Buddha. Many people around the world got to know about DS because of the ban. Through the press, advocators, websites, etc.
- Education: So much information about DS has surfaced since the establishment of the ban. Take this website and forum for example. Would there be this space for us to learn and communicate if the ban was never there?
- The people who are suffering now because of the ban will suffer with regardless to the ban, in my opinion. When karma strikes, we can't avoid even if we're hiding in a 'secure' place. It's just one way or another.
- There were some doubts on DS since He became a Protector. Perhaps the Dalai Lama saw this hence wanting to put a stop to it. For this to happen, the DL skillfully created this ban and will later on lift the ban to proof that DS is in actuality a Buddha. No matter the hardship and criticism, at the end of the day, a Buddha is a Buddha since no one can prove that He is an evil spirit. Especially with so many facts to support that DS is a Buddha. Perhaps this is the best way the DL knows will prove the effectiveness of DS practice.
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I am a believer of the larger picture hypothesis that the ban on Dorje Shugden serves a higher purpose. For the majority of us in the present World, we lack the wisdom to comprehend why the ban is the only option available to spread Dorje Shugden. Only HH Dalai Lama who is Chenrezig, who is omniscient, will come out with such a plan that will ultimately make Dorje Shugden the mainstream practice because Dorje Shugden is the protector practice of this era and because sentient beings of this era needs Dorje Shugden.
There had been many casualties, sufferings and other negative consequences that had arisen due to this ban. If we understand the law of Cause and Effect, we can accept that these are naturally part of samsara and the karma of each sentient being affected by the ban on Dorje Shugden.
Dorjeshugden.com has provided a lot of information on the bigger picture hypothesis. They are presented clearly and logically for us to come to a conclusion on the ban. The day will come when the truth prevails. May the ban be lifted soon.
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Let us look at some of the positive effects of the Dorje Shugden ban imposed by HH the 14th Dalai Lama:
1. Because of the ban, the Government of the most populous country in the world promotes the Shugden practice. I am certain that many more people have come to know and practice Dorje Shugden compared to those who have suffered because of it;
2. The ban has effectively separated the wheat from the chaff i.e. those who refuse to give up their practice due to an oath made to their Guru and those who have no problems revoking promises. Those who chose DS practice over other factors have strengthened in their resolve to practice;
3. It has caused High Lamas and Teachers who wish to continue their Shugden practice to move to other parts of the world where the ban cannot be effected thus spreading the dharma further into the world;
4. It has provided Dorje Shugden with the best advertising and created high impact awareness;
Can you think of other ways the ban has benefitted the practice?
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The ban is troubling indeed. Why does the Dalai Lama, the world emissary of peace, harmony and tolerance instigates such a ban on his own people, against his own teachers? Why?
This is what I think:
While dealing with samsara, we most often must choose between two evils, simply because it is samsara.
Just as when the Buddha, in the Jataka tales, resolved to the killing of a sea captain so as to save lives and save the sea captain from heavy negative karmic actions.
With higher vows, such as the peerless Bodhicitta vows, benefiting others may take several shapes that may be mis-understood by some.
The bodhicitta vows reflect a mode of thought and action specific to a Budddha.
When a Buddha act, it is ALWAYS for the benefit of others and with clairvoyance.
Does the Dalai Lama's mind have the qualities of a Buddha's mind?
Hard for me to say, who am I to qualify the Dalai Lama?
But with inferential logic, I can conclude that it is likely.
If the Dalai Lama is a Buddha, then he has clairvoyance, he has wisdom, he has compassion, pure, complete wise compassion, therefore he has the skills to do what is most beneficial.
His direct students that follow his instructions of not practicing Dorje Shugden do create merit on that ground, on the ground of following one's root Guru's instructions. How otherwise?
Those that go overboard however may have different results...
Long term, we will benefit, and I say this even without having to understand the why, how etc....
I say it with the faith that His Holiness is Chenrezig, if only because my own root Guru says so.
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In samsara exist the positive with the negative... most times co existing together within the same choice. The ban being one of them. The many choices in our lives are laden with such "predicaments". It is how we balance the two with the correct motivation which wins out in the end.
With regards to ban, at the onset of the ban, we can clearly see how far and wide the practice is spreading... Yes there are "negative" aspects to the ban too but when the positive aspects of the goals are realized the negativity associated with it WILL melt away. Suffering is prevalent around us less we forget we are in samsara... but does it mean we forget or neglect the suffering, no! But remind ourselves it is a necessary "evil" in order for there to be a strong enough statement to be made.
What is the point of a "cause" no one hears of or is aware of? The HYPE and with proper strategies are required and for me personally this is precisely what the Ban is... The Ban in itself is neither good nor bad.. the eventual results that fruition will be good and hence we need not dwell on the temporal!
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I learnt a new term recently and the first thing that came to my mind was the Dalai Lama and the ban. The term is "Disruption Marketing" - inventing new methods to disrupt the normal way an industry conducts business. It’s about creating compelling customer engagement, and stronger customer relationships (from http://www.shimonsandler.com/disruption-marketing/ (http://www.shimonsandler.com/disruption-marketing/)). In short, using a business model which causes maximum disruption to an existing market, to make your product widely known and used in the shortest time possible.
Like what Hope Rainbow said, because we are in samsara, there is very rarely a 100% positive or definite black and white or sure win-win situation, more so when it concerns millions and millions of people!
It takes a highly attained being to dare start and maintain the kind of marketing campaign the Dalai Lama is on. I do not believe that the emanation of Chenrezig would do something which would be detrimental to anyone in the long term view. How many people can withstand the criticism that has been thrown at the Dalai Lama? Why would he put his head out like this? I can't think of any other way which would have resulted Buddhism and Dorje Shugden becoming so wide spread as it is today, only someone like the Dalai Lama could think of this idea which caused maximum disruption in the (Buddhist) world.
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I agree with the above posts that the positive effects outweigh the negative. We see the positive effects in the spread of awareness of Dorje Shugden and the promotion of Shugden practice in places like populous China and other countries where high Lamas who are Shugden practitioners have gone(to avoid taking the oath not to practice Shugden) to spread the Dharma and Shugden practice.
Best of all, the ban has resulted in the creation of this website which steadfastly promotes Shugden globally in a peaceful, constructive and non-partisan way, providing a wealth of necessary and authentic information about Shugden and the Dharma.We need to support it by engaging actively in this forum and website, after we educate ourselves from the knowledge and information provided in this website.It is heartening to see the many Dorje Shugden monasteries and centers that have grown up in many places,as well as read about all the gigantic efforts to spread Shugden though distribution of brochures, comics, Shugden pendants, statues and other images. All these make us want to go all out and support this great Cause to facilitate the swift removal of the Ban. Knowing that the suffering of many Lamas and monks ( resulting from the Ban) will stop and the practice of Dorje Shugden will spread unstoppably and like wild-fire the moment the ban is lifted, makes it imperative to create the causes for the SWIFT lifting of the Ban.
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Quote:"If you are a true Dorje Shugden practitioner or rather if you're a person who can see the larger picture you would know that the Dalai Lama enforced the ban on Dorje Shugden's practice for a reason we might not be able to understand at this moment. Some has said it is to spread the practice of Dorje Shugden, especially in China, the catalyst of growth in this era. "
Thanks for letting me (and thousand of other Dorje Shugden practitioners) know that we are not true Dorje Shugden practitioners or people who cannot see the larger picture.
Vajra
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Quote:"If you are a true Dorje Shugden practitioner or rather if you're a person who can see the larger picture you would know that the Dalai Lama enforced the ban on Dorje Shugden's practice for a reason we might not be able to understand at this moment. Some has said it is to spread the practice of Dorje Shugden, especially in China, the catalyst of growth in this era. "
Thanks for letting me (and thousand of other Dorje Shugden practitioners) know that we are not true Dorje Shugden practitioners or people who cannot see the larger picture.
Vajra
No offense, but, Dorje Shudgen practitioners are now divided into 2 groups: the anti HHDL practitioner and the pro HHDL practitioner. There are differences between these 2 groups as I have highlighted in a thread that I have started, based on my observations and also the reaction of a Tibetan refugee to this matter: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1937.0 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1937.0) and how it actually does not help with lifting the ban.
The difference between the groups is this: one group does not believe in the oracle or that HHDL is doing this for a higher purpose, while the other group does consult the oracle and does believe that HHDL is doing this for a higher purpose. The reason for this is very, very simple: 1) the higher purpose prophecy has been predicted by Trijang Rinpoche himself and 2) DS has very clearly proclaimed that his followers should support HHDL despite the ban through the oracle.
At this point its not really about whether or not that there is belief on whether or not the oracle is true or real, but its rather of tolerating fellow practitioners and to not say things that tick off the other side of the party. It is important for us practitioners to show a united front and work on the rough edges rather than to continue to push beliefs down each other's throats.
As bad as the ban may seem, if Trijang Rinpoche had predicted it, he would be sure that it would be a temporary one rather than a permanent one. Why would Trijang Rinpoche be wrong? he isnt nechung, who keeps telling the tibetans that they will get tibet back soon (every single year) but it never happens. This is Trijang Rinpoche we're talking about. He cant be wrong, if he is, we should forget about being Gelug (like what the insecure students of the other lineages would like us to believe...)
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1) the higher purpose prophecy has bee n predicted by Trijang Rinpoche himself and 2) DS has very clearly proclaimed that his followers should support HHDL despite the ban through the oracle.
Dear Ensapa,
How curious! I'm really not aware of this at all. Could you kindly give information about exactly what Trijang Rinpoche said, when and where, and which oracle said we should support the Dalai Lama and exactly what he said?
Thanks :)
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Quote:"If you are a true Dorje Shugden practitioner or rather if you're a person who can see the larger picture you would know that the Dalai Lama enforced the ban on Dorje Shugden's practice for a reason we might not be able to understand at this moment. Some has said it is to spread the practice of Dorje Shugden, especially in China, the catalyst of growth in this era. "
Thanks for letting me (and thousand of other Dorje Shugden practitioners) know that we are not true Dorje Shugden practitioners or people who cannot see the larger picture.
Vajra
That sentence wasn't meant to offend anyone or directed to anyone. Whether or not you are a true practitioner, you know best. Anyways, if you are a true practitioner, then why feel offended?
I wrote that based on logic. There are so many facts out there to prove that there is no way Dorje Shugden harms His Holiness's live.
Here are some links to articles to prove my point:
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=12769 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=12769)
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=295 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=295)
Have a read and have a nice day!
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Without the ban, we will not have this website for us to learn and communicate on the forum. This website provides so much information and is the best advertisement space for Dorje Shugden. Thank you to the devoted team behind this website.
Without the ban, Dorje Shugden will not be so well known. Since the ban, this practice is growing all over the world as high lamas moved and lived in other parts of the world to continue this practice.
As mentioned by tsangpakarpo, China is the catalyst of growth. China will do anything to spite HHDL. So when China adopts this practice it will spread far and wide from this populous country.
The impact of the ban has generated a lot of awareness and curiosity for people to check out this great Protector. It has attracted a lot of people into this practice. The positive outweighs the negative and I hope the sufferings of Dorje Shugden practitioners will end soon with the lifting of the ban.
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1) the higher purpose prophecy has bee n predicted by Trijang Rinpoche himself and 2) DS has very clearly proclaimed that his followers should support HHDL despite the ban through the oracle.
Dear Ensapa,
How curious! I'm really not aware of this at all. Could you kindly give information about exactly what Trijang Rinpoche said, when and where, and which oracle said we should support the Dalai Lama and exactly what he said?
Thanks :)
You would if you read.
From Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors:
But some who are narrow minded, not
understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly
being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama,
disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the
Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other
and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being
who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and
hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and
creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future. Why is
this true? Because it is utterly impossible that such great beings, who are special
emanations of Arya Avalokiteswara and Buddha Amitabha, could lack the power
to overcome the harmful force of any sort of magical spell, harmful demon, or
spirit. This is because they are both powerful Lords who have overcome external
and internal maras without exception.
Yup. From Trijang Rinpoche himself.
As for the oracle, can someone help me here as I remember very clearly it has been mentioned before.
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Whether there could have been a better "game plan" other than imposing a ban on Dorje Shugden is a question that is difficult to answer today because we were not present at the moment the decision was made. Based on the principal of impermanence, change occurs constantly, making it difficult to judge what was the best option or decision at a different point of time. Thus, I believe that it is more progressive to have faith that the ban was the best choice at that moment. Additionally, pondering over “coulda, shoulda and woulda” is a never ending mind game that lack constructiveness.
More than three decades ago when Dorje Shugden was “born”, much suffering occurred where crops were destroyed, livestock was lost and continuous natural disasters beset the land. According to the law of cause and effect, what happens to us is a consequence of our actions i.e karma (and in certain cases like this one, our collective karma). So, we cannot put the responsibility of the suffering we experience on others. Therefore, based on this principal of karma, there are points of view that these occurrences manifested to purify the collective negative karma resulting from the murder of Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen. When the negative karma was exhausted, the people were able to receive a Dorje Shugden - Buddha and Protector - that is most perfect for this degenerate age.
Relating the above to the Dorje Shugden ban, the suffering is manifested to exhaust our collective negative karma so that the practice of Dorje Shugden may enter mainstream Buddhism to open His karmic link millions of people. Based on results, where more people have gotten to know of Dorje Shugden since the ban, there are solid grounds for this argument. Thus, although it is sad that many suffered as a consequence of the ban, this suffering was necessary for eventual benefit.
As Dondrup stated, we still lack the wisdom. Thus, what we should do is learn up and read up more from the website and put our learning into practice by participating in this forum. This will develop our wisdom in time and also create the merits for the ban to be lifted.
Nevertheless, thank you tsangpakarpo for posing this question and prompting us to think more.
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Thank you for posting this question up. it does make my mind think a little here and there. my equation to this controversy is that:
HHDL = CHENRIZIG = WISDOM & COMPASSION = HENCE THIS GAME PLAN, because:
CHINA = A LOT OF PEOPLE = IF HATES HHDL AND KNOWS WHAT CAN BE DONE TO SHORTEN HHDL'S LIFE = THEY WILL SURELY PRACTICE.
Hense, my next equation is:
HHDL = CHENRIZIG = WISDOM 7 COMPASSION = MAKE HIMSELF QUESTIONABLE BY DECLARING PRACTISING DS WILL SHORTEN HIS LIFE = CHINESE GOVT WILL ENCOURAGE HIS PEOPLE TO WORSHIP DS = DORJE SHUGDEN'S PRACTICE SPREADS AS THE CONTROVERSIAL MAKES DS MORE POPULAR
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But some who are narrow minded, not
understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly
being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama,
disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the
Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other
and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being
who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and
hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and
creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future. Why is
this true? Because it is utterly impossible that such great beings, who are special
emanations of Arya Avalokiteswara and Buddha Amitabha, could lack the power
to overcome the harmful force of any sort of magical spell, harmful demon, or
spirit. This is because they are both powerful Lords who have overcome external
and internal maras without exception.
Oh, I thought you were saying that Trijang Rinpoche ACTUALLY said that there would be a ban on Dorje Shugden and that it would be for a higher purpose. In reality, you are simply reading too much into this quote to justify the "bigger picture".
You have to remember that Trijang Rinpoche's text was written long before the ban and Trijang Rinpoche himself passed away before the ban was implemented, so maybe what he was saying about criticising the Dalai Lama was of a certain time that's no longer relevant now. It has a certain historical context.
I really do wonder what his real views about the Dalai Lama would be these days, but in any case, you cannot use this quote to justify a 'bigger picture'.
It saddens me that this site, which is contributed to by a great number of very obviously sincere Dorje Shugden practitioners seems to be pushing an agenda of believing in a 'bigger picture' with no evidence to support it. There are many threads that are actively pushing this view (such as this one), and snide criticism of those who criticise the Dalai Lama. ("Interesting feedback on western Dorje Shugden practitioners")
You'll never create a harmonious Dorje Shugden community by criticising those who disagree with your views.
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Oh, I thought you were saying that Trijang Rinpoche ACTUALLY said that there would be a ban on Dorje Shugden and that it would be for a higher purpose. In reality, you are simply reading too much into this quote to justify the "bigger picture".
You have to remember that Trijang Rinpoche's text was written long before the ban and Trijang Rinpoche himself passed away before the ban was implemented, so maybe what he was saying about criticising the Dalai Lama was of a certain time that's no longer relevant now. It has a certain historical context.
I really do wonder what his real views about the Dalai Lama would be these days, but in any case, you cannot use this quote to justify a 'bigger picture'.
It saddens me that this site, which is contributed to by a great number of very obviously sincere Dorje Shugden practitioners seems to be pushing an agenda of believing in a 'bigger picture' with no evidence to support it. There are many threads that are actively pushing this view (such as this one), and snide criticism of those who criticise the Dalai Lama. ("Interesting feedback on western Dorje Shugden practitioners")
You'll never create a harmonious Dorje Shugden community by criticising those who disagree with your views.
If you havent noticed yet, the way it was written implies very clearly that there will be a ban in the future, unless of course that is what we would not want to see. Why else would he want to write something like that down if everything was nice and wonderful and that there would be no problems with the practitioners in the future? Obviously it is written in context with the ban.
I know I am not supposed to lose my patience, but some things must be said.
Unfortunately due to narrow mindedness and how some people find it so difficult to investigate the root text which is on this website, and demand that information and quotes be served on a silver platter, I'll be quoting the entire portion on the text and please read it within context and in between the lines, please.
There is something I must mention at this point. As stated above, the Great Fifth
Dalai Lama and Omniscient Panchen Rinpoche were like Lords of the Teachings. In
actuality they are, respectively, Arya Avalokiteswara and Buddha Amitabha
emanating in the human form of special holy beings. Yet this Lord of Dharma
Protectors exhibited an ability to harm or destroy them, and such events as the
Great Fifth, having been able to summon this Dharmapala to be burned with
intense samadhi but not accomplish it, also shows that the enlightening activities
of these great masters and those of this Dharmapala are each as mutually
universal and pervasive as the other. But some who are narrow minded, not
understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly
being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama,
disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the
Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other
and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being
who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and
hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and
creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future. Why is
this true? Because it is utterly impossible that such great beings, who are special
emanations of Arya Avalokiteswara and Buddha Amitabha, could lack the power
to overcome the harmful force of any sort of magical spell, harmful demon, or
spirit. This is because they are both powerful Lords who have overcome external
and internal maras without exception.
Again, some who like to speak illogically say that there is resentment
between this lord of Dharma Guardians and the Great Dharmaraja Nechung and
that it is therefore unsuitable for the Tibetan Government and its workers to rely
upon this Protector.
This is a projection of ordinary faults upon those of high realization, special
Dharmapalas, out of habituation to their own common bad behavior of
competitiveness, prejudice, and harboring of grudges. It simply reveals complete
ignorance of the nature of these Dharmpalas, the extent of their realizations, and
knowledge of what they protect and do not protect. If such Dharmapalas were
motivated by competitiveness, attachment, hatred, and jealousy, how could it be
suitable for those who seek liberation to rely upon and make offerings to them?
This is because not relying upon or associating with vicious worldly gods and
ghosts is one of the precepts of having gone for refuge.
You know what saddens me the most? It's Dorje Shugden practitioners like you who cannot give up their hate for HHDL and, try their very best to convince the practitioners who still love HHDL to hate him and when they dont you say these sort of words. I dont see Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche hating HHDL, nor has the current Pabongkha said anything despite threats to their lives. Same goes for the monks of Shar Ganden and Serpom, and not to mention the lay practitioners who are being ostracized in Dharamsala. So which position are you in to say "I hate HHDL because he banned Dorje Shugden?"
And for someone whose life is not threatened to have blind hatred towards HHDL when that issue only results in alienation from other politically correct Dharma centers to keep say such things about this site who has done nothing but provide information and support to other practitioners, it is rather rude and ungrateful. Is that the results of your protector practice?
I now know how the tibetan felt about western practitioners being insensitive to Tibetan culture.
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Hi Ensapa,
Thanks for taking the time to reply.
Firstly, I didn't demand quotes from Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's text, I was merely asking if you had any direct quotations from this great Master that proves that the Dalai Lama banned Dorje Shugden for a higher purpose. What you have quoted does not prove that. You can believe what you like, but it seems to me that you are reading something into the text that isn't there. Sorry, but that's how it appears. What the text says to me is that the 14th Dalai Lama projecting ordinary qualities onto Dorje Shugden is deluded.
Let's break down what it actually says:
- the actual 'dispute' between the 5th Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden was not what it appears. It's wrong to side with Dorje Shugden and criticise the 5th Dalai Lama and the 1st Panchen Lama, and also wrong to side with them and to criticise Dorje Shugden. Such behaviour is ordinary and deluded because their dispute was to show the greatness of both.
- there is no jealousy or dispute between Nechung and Dorje Shugden because if there were, these beings would be unsuitable objects of reliance in order to attain enlightenment.
There's nothing there that implies a 'bigger picture' and it simply refers to historical events. Furthermore, there's no evidence that even if the 5th Dalai Lama was an emanation of Avalokiteshvara that the 14th Dalai Lama is in the same mental continuum. There are stories that his recognition as the Dalai Lama was mistaken due to the deceit of the Reting Rinpoche.
You're also 'putting words into my mouth' - I do not hate the Dalai Lama. I actually am sad that he has created such terrible karma such as causing others to break their spiritual commitments to their Gurus and also having caused a schism in the Sangha. I don't hate him but I will not make excuses for him either - he is solely responsible for the suffering that is being experienced by Dorje Shugden practitioners in India and in Tibetan communities worldwide. To justify his actions is to justify causing suffering to others for no reason.
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Besides knowing the fact that it is for a bigger picture but i like this thread because it makes me think if were to rewind the time, wouldn't HHDL do it differently without causing so much anger, sangha community divided, harm and ill spoken words of an enlightened being etc etc.. Interesting.
If we believe that His Holiness is the reincarnation of Avalokiteshvara himself, sure he operates from compassion and I believe he has weighed all the pros and cons of the action. But is there any other better way? I am sure His Holiness will have his reasoning. China is the fastest growing country in the world now, the population is overwhelming, and the people have become very materialistic and dharma is much needed over there. The only thing i can think of is since the Chinese dislike His Holiness so much, by manifesting flaws, the Chinese will pick up the practice and spread into China. Once the chinese starts practicing, it will spread to the world. If we look at the very qualities of Dorje Shugden is to grant your wishes very swiftly, so by hooking you onto your worldly wishes then you'll gain merits to be able to receive the dharma. Don't forget, afterall he is Manjushri himself.
As for the harm and abandoning of the guru that happened along the way, I have no comment on those, to me those incidents are just accumulated personal negative karma. As for harming His Holiness's health, he is Avalokiteshvara. Enough said.
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To add to this discussion... is there really a negative if one thinks/reflects on a deeper level... Yes of course the sufferings of Shugdenpas which are oppressed seem so... but that understanding is merely operating on a samsaric level I feel...
If we truly looked at the bigger picture, it certainly is for the good of everyone.... and the suffering incurred is to a large extend of our own doing too. We created the causes for it... this is the very fundamental beliefs of Buddhism. And as such, is it really suffering and perhaps it should be seen a purification of sorts which in turn translates into a positive.
Am not attained nor am I learned but I view the ban as a positive as opposed to the negative. I see it as a means to spread Dorje Shugden far and wide because without it, the practice would merely be something lost like (I am sorry to say) the Tibetan traditions of yesterday.
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Interesting discussion here about the ban and I think everyone had developed their own views regarding this matter. Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche never spoke about the ban directly but the way he wrote his advice indicated that he foresee future conflict between Dorje Shugden practitioners and the followers of the Dalai Lama.
Whether this is a prophecy of the ban is left to scholars to dispute. I think that it doesn't matter anymore as this thread is looking at the aftermath of the ban. Were there more positive results after all that? I think that is really hard to determine at the moment as people are just too caught up with the injustices inflicted. But one thing is for sure, it didn't diminish the practice and there are many evidences that this practice is flourishing and is very much alive today.
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At this point, it is really time for us to be strong and to hold on to Trijang Rinpoche's words on not to disparage against HHDL or the protector. All the great lamas are doing that, and so are the Tibetans. Trijang Rinpoche has made it extremely clear that this is the attitude that we should be adopting during these troubled times. I'd rather accept Trijang Rinpoche's words and advice than to give in to my uneasiness with HHDL over the ban.
We can look at Dharma centers who carry out the sectarian policy of not allowing Dorje Shugden practitioners, or even worse, look down on the Dharma protector, not the head of the organization but the people in it, and we can see that they are barely growing or that they have any outstanding disciples that are qualified enough to share Dharma WITH RESULTS THAT MOVE THE HEARTS OF OTHERS.
Why is it that NKT churns out a lot of teachers while some centers churn out almost next to none, or that they exist but are far and rare in between? It is exactly what Trijang Rinpoche had predicted in Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors. Also, does anyone wonder why he said those things? What does it imply? Taking texts without context like a robot wont help anyone...it is experience and context that allows the Dharma to penetrate our minds.
If we hold on to our own ideas so strongly and refuse to read something that is already quite clear, and even when we read it we insist that it fit to our views and discard or conveniently ignore portions of the text that we refuse to see or believe because it challenges our personal beliefs, then what is the use of study Dharma? I'm not pointing fingers, but its something i feel that we should all reflect on at all times.
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The practice of the legitimate & Enlightened Dharma Protector of the Gelug tradition should never have been banned in the first place, it's a great tragedy for the tradition, which holds the very essence of Buddha Dharma, the result of the hard work of Je Tsongkhapa & his disciples.
Sentient beings who denouce Dorje Shugden create a very harmful imprint in their mental continuum, by denying an Enlightened Dharma Protector after reading/listening to false allegations without doing any research to find the truth & encourage others to do the same. Schism in the Sangha. Submitting to peer pressure instead of standing up for what is true. They desecrate holy places, & harm the faithful. Verbal arguements among people spreading online.
Any benefits of the ban is nothing but successful attempts to control the damage done. What if all attempts to control the damage till today failed? The Gelug tradition will be ruined! Please bear in mind that after the ban has been lifted, if it ever will, it may not be possible to fix every single damage done.
If this tragedy hadn't taken place, disciples can focus their time, effort & resources in productive study & application of the Dharma, setting a good example for the Buddhist community, doing community service to the less fortunate around the world, taking the essence of this precious but transient human existence.
Let's not lie to ourselves that this is a controvesary regarding Protector Manjushri Dorje Shugden is a good thing.
Let's insead put our hands together to create the cause & conditions for this ban to end peacefully, motivated by Bodhichitta.
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Instead of trying to convince yourself that this ban isn't a mistake or a harm done to the Gelug community for a greater good in future, which in both cases doubt will still exist in your mind, why not look at other activities of the Dalai Lama to have a more balanced view of him?
You can study the Dalai Lama's contribution to the world & to Tibet itself: Dharma talks, initiations (although he sometimes speak against Dorje Shugden in them), charity work, lending his support to a good cause, writing books (I read some of his books in my younger days before I became aware of the ban, his books are good but I am not reading his books now.) , producing audio books & videos on the Dharma ( I assume he does this also). After looking at all his activities, there are bound to be some of them which you sincerely feel from the very bottom of your heart, without any doubt, as being beneficial to sentient beings, rejoice in them & share them with people around you through conversations & writings.
The same principle can be applied to sentient beings around us: Don't just look at a person's mistakes, look at his contributions also.
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Instead of trying to convince yourself that this ban isn't a mistake or a harm done to the Gelug community for a greater good in future, which in both cases doubt will still exist in your mind, why not look at other activities of the Dalai Lama to have a more balanced view of him?
You can study the Dalai Lama's contribution to the world & to Tibet itself: Dharma talks, initiations (although he sometimes speak against Dorje Shugden in them), charity work, lending his support to a good cause, writing books (I read some of his books in my younger days before I became aware of the ban, his books are good but I am not reading his books now.) , producing audio books & videos on the Dharma ( I assume he does this also). After looking at all his activities, there are bound to be some of them which you sincerely feel from the very bottom of your heart, without any doubt, as being beneficial to sentient beings, rejoice in them & share them with people around you through conversations & writings (post these findings here if you want).
The same principle can be applied to sentient beings around us: Don't just look at a person's mistakes, look at his contributions also.
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I love what you have stated, Ratna Shugden, but sometimes people are hard to convince as they will only see the bad points of HHDL no matter what happens or how much good HHDL has done, but it is a good effort trying anyway. Sometimes, people can be stubborn and that they can have their own beliefs on something, but it is okay because people are diverse in nature.
However, since they do know the stance of this forum where a majority of us choose to still support HHDL, why would they want to press their beliefs against us anyway? With that said, perhaps they were too irked by how we tend to say that HHDL is not making a mistake with the ban and that HHDL is still the real thing and the ban has a bigger purpose. We have the evidence to support those, tho.
At this point, i just hope that we can all be united under one goal and under one canopy: that is we are all Dorje Shugden practitioners who practice with the utmost sincerity towards our protector who has given us so much in more ways than one and we just wish to work together to lift the ban despite our different opinions on HHDL and that we do not focus on that part...
On the damage done to Gelug, perhaps it was intended by the person or the group of people who has been forcing HHDL to enact the ban because i do not believe that HHDL is doing this willingly and it seems as if he does support Dorje Shugden but he has to conceal it. His website and some of his statements have too many indications and contradictions about Dorje Shugden and the ban...that is if we read between the lines...
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Books by the Dalai Lama which I had enjoyed reading in my younger days before I became aware of the ban:
The Art of Happiness: A Handbook for Living
The Wisdom of Forgiveness
Transforming the Mind
Whenever I see his books in the bookstores & in the library, especially the titles above, theywould now remind me of the ban :-[
May the ban on the practice of Protector Manjushri Dorje Shugden end soon.
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Here are my humble thoughts:-
Pros
1. The ban brought about curiosity and awareness of Dorje Shudgen and its practice has spread twofold internationally since then.
2. China has since encouraged the practice of Dorje Shudgen and temples set up to allow people to worship Dorje Shudgen openly.
3. By endorsing Dorje Shugden, relations between Tibet and China has somewhat improved allowing Tibetan Buddhism to spread widely in China.
4. In my opinion the ban had somehow ironically 'saved' Tibet from further hardships previously imposed by China by splitting the Tibetans into either pro or anti Dorje Shudgen practitioners, thereby weakening their fight for independence. As a result, the ban diverted Tibetans from the cause and China became more opened to accepting the practice of Dorje Shudgen.
5. Most importantly, the ban created and encouraged websites like this one promoting the spread and awareness of Dorje Shudgen as a powerful protector.
Cons
1. The ban created disunity among the Tibetans and CTA started to discriminate against pro Dorje Shudgen practitioners, resulting in the accumulation of more nagative karma and unhappiness within the Tibetan community.
2. Lives were sacrificed and people suffered.
I am sure I am only skimming the surface but taking into consideration all the other posts' positive points here, the positives do outweigh the negatives. I have no doubts about this.
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Here are my humble thoughts:-
Pros
1. The ban brought about curiosity and awareness of Dorje Shudgen and its practice has spread twofold internationally since then.
2. China has since encouraged the practice of Dorje Shudgen and temples set up to allow people to worship Dorje Shudgen openly.
3. By endorsing Dorje Shugden, relations between Tibet and China has somewhat improved allowing Tibetan Buddhism to spread widely in China.
4. In my opinion the ban had somehow ironically 'saved' Tibet from further hardships previously imposed by China by splitting the Tibetans into either pro or anti Dorje Shudgen practitioners, thereby weakening their fight for independence. As a result, the ban diverted Tibetans from the cause and China became more opened to accepting the practice of Dorje Shudgen.
5. Most importantly, the ban created and encouraged websites like this one promoting the spread and awareness of Dorje Shudgen as a powerful protector.
Cons
1. The ban created disunity among the Tibetans and CTA started to discriminate against pro Dorje Shudgen practitioners, resulting in the accumulation of more nagative karma and unhappiness within the Tibetan community.
2. Lives were sacrificed and people suffered.
I am sure I am only skimming the surface but taking into consideration all the other posts' positive points here, the positives do outweigh the negatives. I have no doubts about this.
There are several other cons that you have missed out: Dorje Shugden practitioners around the world, some of them who have received it from very high teachers such as Lama Yeshe and Trijang Rinpoche himself were ousted from their own Dharma communities and were forced to practice alone. High Lamas such as Pabongkha Rinpoche were suppressed and their Dharma activities have been limited by this ban.
The ban also gave an excuse for the other lineages to attack Gelugpa, citing that Gelug is not a "safe" lineage since it has been "tainted" by Dorje Shugden. Of course, they have been thinking in this way all along but the ban allowed them to criticize Gelug in a more open manner where they will sound valid and justified. I have heard of this all the time happening on internet forums and such.
It also caused a lot of old monks and lay practitioners, most of them who have been the backbone of the monasteries to be ousted and kicked out to the streets with almost nothing and the shops and villages refuse to serve them or support them in any way. No one else will support these group of practitioners in Dharamsala where everyone is at camp Dalai Lama and if you're not, you're an outcast.
Last but not least, it has distracted many people and many practitioners from real Dharma, from both sides of the camp, pro and anti Dorje Shugden and they get involved in meaningless tussle and arguments about who is right and who is wrong with regards to the ban and has caused the gelugs a huge split that would be very difficult to reconcile in the years to come even when the ban has been lifted...
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If it is to spread the practice of Dorje Shugden, especially in China, the catalyst of growth in this era. Has anyone stepped into china to collect statistics? If there are DS supporters , there are also anti-DS chinese in China, the chinese government hates DL but not all the chinese hates him. The chinese called DL ??in the buddhist community instead of ??which is commonly used outside the buddhist community.
I am not in the position to give any conclusion but personally I do not believe DS is a spirit or demon or else he wouldnt be a fan of the Buddhas.
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For me the ban in itself is neither positive nor negative... it is but a means to an end. At the onset of the ban, we can clearly see how far and wide the practice is spreading... Yes there are "negative" aspects to the ban too but when the positive aspects of the goals are realized the negativity associated with it WILL melt away.
Suffering is prevalent around us less we forget we are in samsara... but does it mean we forget or neglect the suffering, no! But remind ourselves it is a necessary "evil" in order for there to be a strong enough statement to be made. In samsara exist the positive with the negative... most times co existing together within the same choice, the ban being one of them. The many choices in our lives are laden with such "predicaments". It is how we balance the two with the correct motivation which wins out in the end.
What is the point of a "cause" no one hears of or is aware of? The HYPE and with proper strategies are required and for me personally this is precisely what the Ban is... The ban I believe serves as the "advertisement" and the product is Dorje Shugden. We all know in this day and age, nothing sells better than negative press. Precisely why tabloids devoid of complete truth but with sensationalism added are thriving! So why should spreading Dorje EFFECTIVELY be any different? The eventual results that fruition will be good and hence we need not dwell on the temporal! That is my thought on this and I sincerely believe the positive outweighs the negative in the long run!
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For me the ban in itself is neither positive nor negative... it is but a means to an end. At the onset of the ban, we can clearly see how far and wide the practice is spreading... Yes there are "negative" aspects to the ban too but when the positive aspects of the goals are realized the negativity associated with it WILL melt away.
Suffering is prevalent around us less we forget we are in samsara... but does it mean we forget or neglect the suffering, no! But remind ourselves it is a necessary "evil" in order for there to be a strong enough statement to be made. In samsara exist the positive with the negative... most times co existing together within the same choice, the ban being one of them. The many choices in our lives are laden with such "predicaments". It is how we balance the two with the correct motivation which wins out in the end.
What is the point of a "cause" no one hears of or is aware of? The HYPE and with proper strategies are required and for me personally this is precisely what the Ban is... The ban I believe serves as the "advertisement" and the product is Dorje Shugden. We all know in this day and age, nothing sells better than negative press. Precisely why tabloids devoid of complete truth but with sensationalism added are thriving! So why should spreading Dorje EFFECTIVELY be any different? The eventual results that fruition will be good and hence we need not dwell on the temporal! That is my thought on this and I sincerely believe the positive outweighs the negative in the long run!
Dear Positive Attitude, I like what you wrote here.
In fact samsara never offers us any better choice than a lesser evil.
- Be vegetarian does not equate with no killing, for bugs are killed in the process
BUT it is better than direct killing of beings in order to eat them = Lesser Evil.
- I must punish my children and make them cry sometimes
BUT if I don't do that they'll cry even more and without guidance as adults = Lesser Evil.
- The ban brings about many problems and suffering
BUT it is better than no ban because without it Dorje Shugden would remain an esoteric Dharma protector = Lesser Evil.
In fact, the choice of words is not very good when we say lesser "EVIL", for really this "evil" is not true evil, for the motivation is virtuous and it does help at least medium term, sometimes only long term, so there is no evil here.
But the fact remains that even if it is not evil per say, some beings will suffer in the process.
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I think it is very subjective at this point to say that the positive outweighs the negative. The ban has tremendous impact upon the daily lives of thousands of practitioners across the world, especially in the monastery. Relationships, friendships and families has been shattered and countless lives has been lost. The sufferings of Dorje Shugden Lamas, monastic and lay practitioners is tremendous.
However, the sufferings inflicted by the ban on Dorje Shugden has a blessing in disguise. The publicity generated on this deity, there are incredible amount of people that are hearing and gaining the incredible blessings of Dorje Shugden. So, does the positive truly outweigh the negative? Only time will tell and the incredible hard work of Dorje Shugden Lamas are tipping the scale. They are making something positive out of the negative especially in China. Their mission is just to uphold the lineage and nothing else.
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I think it is very subjective at this point to say that the positive outweighs the negative. The ban has tremendous impact upon the daily lives of thousands of practitioners across the world, especially in the monastery. Relationships, friendships and families has been shattered and countless lives has been lost. The sufferings of Dorje Shugden Lamas, monastic and lay practitioners is tremendous.
However, the sufferings inflicted by the ban on Dorje Shugden has a blessing in disguise. The publicity generated on this deity, there are incredible amount of people that are hearing and gaining the incredible blessings of Dorje Shugden. So, does the positive truly outweigh the negative? Only time will tell and the incredible hard work of Dorje Shugden Lamas are tipping the scale. They are making something positive out of the negative especially in China. Their mission is just to uphold the lineage and nothing else.
If we look at the moment, sure it seems like it is subjective. However, I believe the positive outweighs the negative. I do not discount the many thousand of lives disrupted by the ban but on the flip side of the coin there are tens of thousands more benefiting from the spread of the practice because of the awareness the ban creates! On that point alone, for me is a tremendous plus.
And if we truly believe in karma, it is not the ban that has created the suffering of the people affected but their individual and collective karma that has resulted in them suffering at this moment in time. I truly believe in that and is by no means belittling the suffering but merely putting it in perspective.
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I do not know if the positive outweighs the negative... but we can clearly see that it is changing from negative in to positive!
I guess this is something like tantra and how enlightened minds react to any negative situation. We are taught in Buddhism that it is not our negative karma that lessens or increases when we take refuge and start practicing Dharma... but rather we can handle the situations and problems that are thrown at us better. We deal with the negativities better, and hence change the situation around to a positive one and in this case... well we can see Dorje Shugden continue to spread throughout China and the world :) So this aspect we can rejoice and we can gain strength and courage to continue of practice.
Definitely we cannot disregard all the suffering that has arised from this aweful Ban and the Dharma brothers and sisters, sangha and family thorn a part just because they choose to follow their own GURU and do their practice which is in their family line for generations, they were ostracized and became society's outcast. So what we can do in remembering their struggles, in showing them our support, to tell them Hey they are NOT ALONE and We hear their cries... is to continue to promote and educate as many people as we can about our protector's practise and to correct those wrong views if there is any that comes along the way.
Heck a friend of mine in the West... blatantly told me they could not careless about the Ban and the non- existing Tibetan politics as there are so many more bigger world issues to focus on... and if Dorje Shugden is good and it helps people... what's the big deal. So lets share the benefits of Dorje Shugden practice and who he is to everyone! How? Well...
One fabullous way would be by getting the 1st ever Dorje Shugden Graphic Novel in the World!
The graphic novel is available to you ENTIRELY FOR FREE. We only request that you in your compassion bring the practice of this Protector, and share this graphic novel with others is what this wonderful site has provided us with. http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=9832/ (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=9832/)
Here are some ways you can spread the world’s first Dorje Shugden graphic novel:
?Gift it to your teacher
?Print copies for your friends
?Introduce it to your Dharma centre
?Teach it in a Dharma class
?Donate copies to your local library
?Analyse it in a world religions class
?Get your favourite bookshop to stock it
?Send copies to your neighbours
?Translate it and email it to your friends abroad
?Link it on your website
?Share it on Facebook or Twitter
?Read it with your kids
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In terms of getting China to practice Dorje Shugden and awakening and provoking their Dharma seeds, and also exposing people who are not sincere in their Dharma practice and treat it like a political game, and also raise out the underlying issues of jealousy against Gelugpa in the other lineages, and also test the courage and strength of Dorje Shugden practitioners, the Dorje Shugden ban has done a wonderful job.
In terms of protecting the delusion and illusion that Buddhism is a peaceful religion, that there are no problems within Buddhism, that people who are Buddhists actually act in accordance with the Buddha's teaching, that is to investigate things before believing in them, and to actually not make a political game out of situations, and harming others in the name of the ban, then yes, the ban has failed and has negative repercussions.
But what I do see here is the bigger picture where more people actually benefit from the ban as opposed to not having the ban. The Tibetans in China who practice Dorje Shugden are protected and promoted by the government of China, while those that are not are subjected to many difficulties and problems. Naturally this will cause the people to pray to Dorje Shugden more.
On the other hand it also makes Dorje Shugden practitioners more resilient than before and it also helps them become stronger in their Dharma practice. Dharma protectors are not around to give us wealth and assistance, but also to help train us up so that we can benefit more people. I have a feeling that the ban will prepare Dorje Shugden practitioners to do more and increase their power and resolve for something bigger...
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I agreed to what tsangpakarpo said in the first paragraph, His Holiness the Dalai Lama has enforced the ban with reasons that we normal human being may not understand now, but we must always have faith in His Holiness. Regarding the statement " Positive outweighs negative ", I think it depends on individual perspectives, people who take this matter negatively they will definitely think otherwise. In short, no matter what the outcome is, we must still do whatever we can to lift the ban as soon as possible.
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I totally agree that Dalai Lama being Chenrizig can never be understood by a mere mortal like me. But my logical mind speaks that if the Dalai Lama does not have the ban and propitiates Dorje Shugden, the spread of DS worshippers will be much more than now.
However, when viewing the Illustrated Story of Dorje Shugden, it was also told that when Dorje Shugden arose as the protector a black cloud like a hand was over Lhasa and as such there was tremendous natural disaster. My understanding is that happened as a purification of the negative karma of having murdered a High Lama like Tulku Drakpa Geylsten.
Could the suffering occurring with the Ban be another great purification that we are going through as a compassionate act of the highly attained beings.
These are my thoughts but having said that and given adequate good reason for the suffering inflicted on Shugdenpas, I still think that the Ban being more positive than negative does not jive.
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Whoa, dslucky you are really laying it down. Seen from that angle, i tend to agree with you. I the Dalai Lama has not given China a loophole to up the ante on the Dalai Lama, DS would not spread as it did. Really, all your points are valid. Agreed.
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I agreed with dslucky, dondrup and vajratruth that this ban is for a bigger picture as all seems like planned and a play. With this ban, more people has get to know Dorje Shugden and Dharma as such people in the China as well as people in the west.
Recently there is an article “Thanks to the Dalai Lama” (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/thanks-to-the-dalai-lama-2/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/thanks-to-the-dalai-lama-2/)) that also highlighted some points that thanks to the Dalai Lama’s ban that the Dorje Shugden practitioners are more united and the people who are left practicing DS are also putting their practice into higher level with action especially on being more devoted to Guru and the lineage despite having all the obstacles and problems. It is also seems like creating another wave for wide spreading of Dharma in this degeneration age with all the right conditions such as the readiness of the high lama such as Trijang Rinpoche in his mature age to spread the pure lineage of DS and Tsongkhapa to all, the International Shugden Community, the dorjeshugden.com website, as well as the monasteries with more teachers that upholding the lineage of DS and Tsongkhapa.
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I think the ban is nessarry with the ban it help to release a lot of suffering of the people who live in TIbet because China has strongly support the DS practice because of the practice China has paid more attention in rebuilding TIbet so in directly the ban has bring some benefits to the people in Tibet. Secondly because of the ban there more people in world more interested to find out more about DS practice so indirectly there be more people will benefits from this practice. So the ban do is not really a bad thing.