dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: DharmaDefender on April 28, 2012, 10:19:19 AM
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To His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama,
Does this mean we can talk to you about Dorje Shugden? Please please please please, pretty please with all the sugary stuff girls like to eat on top. Because we dont like to fight, we just want to practise in peace and not have rocks and bits of gravel chucked our way.
Thanks,
With folded hands,
Gaz
http://www.suntimes.com/news/12132627-418/dalai-lama-at-nobel-summit-lets-talk-rather-than-fight.html (http://www.suntimes.com/news/12132627-418/dalai-lama-at-nobel-summit-lets-talk-rather-than-fight.html)
The Dalai Lama called for a “century of dialogue” and predicted a more peaceful planet by the end of the 21st century as the World Summit of Nobel Peace Laureates drew to a close in Chicago Wednesday afternoon.
After appearing onstage at the Symphony Center with other Nobel Prize winners including former Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev, the Dalai Lama said that the crime plaguing parts of Chicago is mirrored all over the world.
“That’s not just your case,” he said of Chicago violence, adding it was “up to humanity as a whole” to tackle the problem.
But the Dalai Lama said he was optimistic because people all over the world are becoming “wiser” and more interested in finding non-violent solutions to conflict.
The history of the 20th century had shown that violence does not work, he told an audience of hundreds of students and peace activists.
“The 21st century should be a century of dialogue,” he said, calling on educators from the kindergarten level to universities to teach that dialogue is “the genuine solution” to problems large and small.
“There have only been 11 years so far in this century, but there are 89 to come. ... If we make an effort I think that within this century a better world” is possible, he added.
If the Dalai Lama’s comments on Chicago were diplomatic, fellow Nobel laureate Jody Williams — honored in 1997 for her work to ban landmines — had some sharp words for Mayor Rahm Emanuel.
Williams, who hailed Occupy Chicago for standing up to “corporate greed,” said she’d told the mayor she was unimpressed with what she called his “sit down, shut up” ordinance limiting protest during the NATO summit next month.
The ordinance threatens “our right to non-violent protest,” she said.
Gorbachev likewise raised concerns about the effects of globalization and the international financial system, but echoed the Dalai Lama’s comments, joking that if a “Bolshevik” like himself and a “dinosaur” like President Ronald Reagan could solve problems through talks, “what we need is dialogue.”
The former Soviet leader also presented a Peace Summit award to actor Sean Penn for his work helping Haiti recover from the 2010 earthquake that claimed more than 300,000 lives.
Penn, who was introduced as “His Excellency Ambassador Penn” following his appointment by the Haitian government earlier this year, choked up during a speech calling on the U.S. to stick by Haiti.
He said his plea was “not one from a bleeding heart liberal [who is] only supportive to the needs of people outside his own country — I’m a proud American.” It is in the U.S. national interest to prevent Haiti from falling into the hands of criminals or terrorists, he said.
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Haha I like what you said Gaz. Yes how ironic. On one side His Holiness is promoting peace and harmony but the ban stirred the Sangha and Buddhist community, how ironic!
If only people can see the truth. But personally I find His Holiness talked lesser about the Shugden's issue? do you think so? It seems like the issue has slowly die down, but of course for us out of respect for His Holiness, we would like a closure for this matter and hear from his own mouth to lift the ban. The day seems to get closer and closer. Thanks to practitioners who are devoted to their gurus and website like this to uphold the practice and educate people about real facts and information regarding the issues.
Oh well, yes same plead to His Holiness.. WHEN? Please, we need to talk... ...
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Dear Gaz, I share the same feeling as you do. Us Buddhist, especially DS practioners are peaceful people and will never resort to fighting to get points across. We hope the day will come very soon HHDL will see DS practioners and welcome us to his talks. May HHDL lift the ban soon and announce to the whole wide world that it is perfectly alright to practice DS. Please do not sideline us anymore.
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But the reality is that every letter ever written requesting for dialogue and discussion with the Dalai Lama and his people about Dorje Shugden has been ignored or denied.
See this video, for example, where Shugden practitioners confront Tibetan government representatives and are not able to engage in any kind of dialogue: Kelsang Pema répond au représentant du Dalai Lama (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psKJ0oIEiVo#)
(The representative outright denies the ban - that there is no ban!)
The Dalai Lama IS consistent in his words for everything else - there is plenty of dialogue between the Dalai Lama and the whole world. There is plenty of meetings and gatherings and conferences that the Dalai Lama partakes in as a contribution towards bringing greater understanding and peace between countries etc etc It is the Dorje Shugden issue that remains the greatest anomaly, the one that is most completely contradictory to all that he preaches.
For example, the dalai lama also advocates and supports the rights of all world religions. He attends interfaith gatherings and speaks freely about the merits of other religions. He also welcomes anyone of any faith to his teachings and religious ceremonies ..... EXCEPT Shugden practitioners. How is it logical that devil worshippers, agnostics, people of all faiths are permitted into his teachings but fellow Buddhists who merely follow a different practice are not permitted in? This is not logical, nor democratic nor at all in line with what the Dalai Lama has been advocating all his life!
Is this supposed to be sheer follow? A mistake on his path? A kind of blind spot?
Or more like a deliberate plan? I just don't know how to explain how else someone can be so consistent throughout his life on all aspects of Dharma but so completely off the mark with just one, very basic issue of religious freedom.
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The Dalai Lama is slowly and slowly going to move himself out of the public eye, by unselfishly making small mistakes and I hope that eventually an emanation of Dorje Shugden himself will take over. Otherwise I don't see a reason for all these contradictions, apart from the growth of the practice. If he said it, it is the truth, lets talk, not fight, and hopefully the next time we talk to the Dalai Lama he will want to talk and not fight, after all only the truth will prevail.
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The Dalai Lama has always promote world peace and harmony but with the DS issue it is completely contradictory. However as Barzin mentioned, The Dalai Lama is talking less and less about DS issue. Hopefully the day will come soon for The Dalai Lama to announce that the ban will be lifted. Let us make a plea to HHDL to announce publicly that there is nothing wrong with Dorje Shugden practice. Let there be world peace, harmony and religious freedom.
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The Dalai Lama has always promote world peace and harmony but with the DS issue it is completely contradictory. However as Barzin mentioned, The Dalai Lama is talking less and less about DS issue. Hopefully the day will come soon for The Dalai Lama to announce that the ban will be lifted. Let us make a plea to HHDL to announce publicly that there is nothing wrong with Dorje Shugden practice. Let there be world peace, harmony and religious freedom.
Actually, I personally feel that HHDL should speak more about DS and make DS more popular and wanted! The more HHDL speaks about peace and love, the more suppression is happening in the monasteries. Even having said all these, the only way out is for DS to go global through the culmination of strength from everyone here on the webpage, forum and our daily commitments to our gurus and the protector.
With these elements in mind, uprooting this ban could soon be realized
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THe Dalai Lama is right in promoting dialogue (talk) rather than fight, but has he ever thought that his ban against DS practice is creating violence? It's been so many years and people are fighting and hurting themselves and others. When will it stop? The Dalai Lama has not had any dialogue with DS practitioners/leaders with regards to this issue but just gave a blanket ban.
On the other hand, the Dalai Lama has had many many dialogues/discussions/meetings with other people relating to other issues. Why the discrimination? Even he is out there talking with other religious leaders recently but not with his own religious heads.
Until he starts to talk with DS leaders, the we can really see his words in action.
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Whatever the motivation and plans of HHDL for Dorje Shugden, may they be positive towards the promoting of DS practice. Maybe the time is nearing for the lift of the ban against DS. Since dialogues are not granted and Instead of fighting, let's work towards the spread of DS via positive peaceful actions. This website is an excellent way to start with if we do not have any DS supporters where we live. Let's each of us do out bit.
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With folded hands to you Your Holiness, why do you go around the world propagating peace and harmony when there is war even among your own people? Why do you keep talking about non violence when your own people are physically harmed for practicing Dorje Shugden? Why do you call this a century of dialogue but Shugdenpas are surpressed and there is no room for discussion?
There are too many contradictions in what you say and what is actually going on now among the Tibetans. Please help shed some light. It has been too long.
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Dear Dalai Lama,
Why talk with China when you have internal issues with fellow Tibetans to settle with? Particularly with the development of Dharamsala and also the banning of Dorje Shugden? Do you how much grief and pain that this has brought to not only to the Tibetan community but also to the Buddhist community worldwide? How can that logically be contributing to the freedom of Tibet when it's essentially dividing Tibetans and Buddhists worldwide?
You say you want Tibet back, but what has the Ganden Phodrang showed to the world that they can manage a country properly and make the citizens happy, and provide the citizens with whatever that they need and make sure that there is an infrastructure in place that will provide clean water and electricity to the citizens, as well as paved roads and a proper sewerage system...
You say that the ban is for the unity of Tibet but nowhere in Dorje Shugden's sadhana does it point to sectarianism. The verse that you claim to be sectarian can be found in the sadhanas of all the other Dharma protectors as well. So, now are you going to ban them too since all Dharma protectors are sectarian in nature due to the one couplet that tells them to protect a particular lineage?
How can you logically have dialogues with China when you have not addressed the following concerns that are part of the issues that Tibetans face? What if China brings that up in the dialogue and cites that those are the very reasons that they cannot entrust Tibet back to the Tibetans? How would you answer that? I sincerely respect Your Holiness from my heart, but these actions I find difficult to reconcile.
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But the reality is that every letter ever written requesting for dialogue and discussion with the Dalai Lama and his people about Dorje Shugden has been ignored or denied.
See this video, for example, where Shugden practitioners confront Tibetan government representatives and are not able to engage in any kind of dialogue:
([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psKJ0oIEiVo#[/url])
HH Dalai Lama has refused to hold dialogues with Shugden practitioners. We notice that HH Dalai Lama or CTA has not been able to hold any more dialogues with China on Tibetan’s autonomy. It is very obvious China’s reaction is the effect of HH Dalai Lama and CTA’s actions toward Shugden practitioners!
The Dalai Lama called for a “century of dialogue” and predicted a more peaceful planet by the end of the 21st century as the World Summit of Nobel Peace Laureates drew to a close in Chicago Wednesday afternoon.
Why is HH Dalai Lama not having dialogues with representatives of all Shugden practitioners? It is not the way of a Buddha or bodhisattva to shut out all doors to dialogues with Dorje Shugden practitioners! It completely contradicts what HH Dalai Lama was preaching the World about having dialogues.
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Let's not bash HHDL. If we believe HH to be Chenrezig, his contradictions must eventually benefit the masses. So bashing HHDL is not good for dharma practitioners like us.
It's obvious why HHDL can't have an open dialogue regarding the ban on Dorje Shugden. HHDL's claims on the practice is illogical. He will lose and his grand plan may be jeopardised.
The ban may be a puja for the Tibetans to go through sufferings to purify their karma for a better tomorrow. Highly attained lamas always orchestrate situations to create "suffering" for their students to purify their karma. For example, a lama can beat up his student severely. If we don't know any better, we may be shocked to even hear about it. But to the student, it is a great blessing.
So let's focus on CTA because they are the Govt and have no rights to discriminate Dorje Shugden practitioners!
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Let's not bash HHDL. If we believe HH to be Chenrezig, his contradictions must eventually benefit the masses. So bashing HHDL is not good for dharma practitioners like us.
It's obvious why HHDL can't have an open dialogue regarding the ban on Dorje Shugden. HHDL's claims on the practice is illogical. He will lose and his grand plan may be jeopardised.
The ban may be a puja for the Tibetans to go through sufferings to purify their karma for a better tomorrow. Highly attained lamas always orchestrate situations to create "suffering" for their students to purify their karma. For example, a lama can beat up his student severely. If we don't know any better, we may be shocked to even hear about it. But to the student, it is a great blessing.
So let's focus on CTA because they are the Govt and have no rights to discriminate Dorje Shugden practitioners!
I would like the see the Dalai Lama initiate a dialogue with Dorje Shugden leaders/pratitioners since he said it openly that the 21st century is a century of dialogues. If the Dalai Lama could not do it, then the CTA should take up the initiative to act on behalf of the Tibetan people. Then, this will be a change in history.
I believe that the Dalai Lama has his reasons to impose the ban and there is a bigger picture to it. So, I am not against the Dalai Lama per se. But with him imposing t he ban and then publicly declaring his objective of non-discrimination and non-violence, then he is contradicting himself!
I really do hope that the CTA led by Mr Lobsang Sangey will do something to relieve the suffering of the people.
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What if two political parties talk? China and HHDL sit down and talk and China accepted HHDL stance in "No independence but rather self governance for Tibet if HHDL returns". Will DS issue be the next agenda to solve, in the future years to come, i believe DS supporters will increase, this includes the chinese. At that time, "religious freedom" to be follow if its to be enforced by the chinese law.
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I believe HHDL has his reasons to be "subjective" on the point of DS practitioners. It would be disrespectful to doubt Chenrezig himself. In fact HHDL's actions are ALWAYS consistent even with the DS ban... Consistently inconsistent. Why is this? Surely there is more to this than meets the eye.
HHDL surely knows people are watching his every move and perhaps that is THE point. HHDL has always promoted unity and peace and interfaith unity, case in point:
http://dalailama.com/news/post/805-his-holiness-meets-cardinal-schnborn-and-makes-a-pilgrimage-to-st-stephens-cathedral (http://dalailama.com/news/post/805-his-holiness-meets-cardinal-schnborn-and-makes-a-pilgrimage-to-st-stephens-cathedral)
http://dalailama.com/news/post/799-his-holiness-speaks-about-peace-and-non-violence-in-udine (http://dalailama.com/news/post/799-his-holiness-speaks-about-peace-and-non-violence-in-udine)
Perhaps all the suffering 'orchestrated' by HHDL is a purification of sorts? High Lamas and highly attained beings like HHDL wield methods beyond our comprehension and perhaps on a karmic level, the suffering is lessened with HHDL 'intervention'. This we cannot know but we have to trust as HHDL's compassion knows no boundaries!
With HHDL 'stepping down' as political leader is a clear indication of a change and bigger picture to come. CTA must now move forward like a piece in this chess game and continue this elaborate and intricate plan in spreading Dorje Shugden in ten directions! CTA has to now work towards the removal of the ban as it is within CTA's jurisdiction which makes perfect sense because HHDL cannot remove it having instigated in through religious avenues (and of course the whole reason for HHDL using himself as the precursor would be obliterated should HHDL back down now).
Hence the only way to remove the ban is now through political means which is within the power of CTA and that is precisely what HHDL has planned, I feel very strongly.
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Ahhh His Holiness... perhaps this centre stage is the best OPPORTUNE TIME to talk about what we love most DORJE SHUGDEN and the FIGHTINGS. Yes let's talk about that as well - why not - they are Human too and they are your very own people too.
The westerners and the foreigners who practice Dorje Shugden are not the one suffering... it is your very own Tibetans and sangha. Show them some compassion while we preach it to the world? Why not? It would only make the world have more respect, be more awed and imagine the media coverage for this. Everyone loves a piece of juicy controversy... IT SELLS so hey If HHDL and the CTA wants to get some attention... this is one fantastic way. And then when you say... NO BAN... I bet even China will wonder what happened?! and some eye brows raised!
Then I believe the Peace and Compassion and let's not FIGHT issues will resolve. Lead by example dear Dalai Lama, we learnt that from Your Holiness :)
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I prescribe to the “big picture” theory. This is because a man like His Holiness cannot be contradicting himself all the time as the whole world is watching.
The Western Shugden Society (WSS) , while picketing the venues where His Holiness appear around the world, has requested and attempted dialogue on the subject, but the Dalai Lama and the TGIE have not responded to any of their attempts to dialogue on the subject and supporters say that the TGIE have simply discredited the opposition.
WSS claimed that His Holiness is “banning them from practising their own lineage of Buddhism” , so why is such a leader go around the world taking pictures and engaging in and promoting interfaith tolerance and harmony while there is no tolerance and harmony for his own sect?
His Holienss has been the leader of Tibet (and then Tibet in Exile) for many years, he knows that imposing this ban without a chance for them to discuss or meet or have dialogue with His Holiness will cause a large rift in the Tibetan community and is increasing disharmony in the Tibetan diaspora, so why does he still do it?
Don’t you think it’s weird that His Holiness can have dialogues with contemplative scholars, activists, scientists, religious leaders but can’t have dialogue with his own people who practises the same “religion” ?
Anyway, I think His Holiness has not granted a dialogue since then and will not be granting any.
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Another gem in one of the old thread:
The Dalai Lama on how to deal with Dorje Shugden practitioners (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puWgomFs-54#)
From: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=545.0 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=545.0)
These are some interesting points made by His Holiness.
‘...So while we are promoting peace, we must promote some methods, non-violent method to tackle these conflicts/ problems. That's dialogue. Dialogue at war, violence, this sort of tendency one side victory, one side defeat, that's impossible....
Today’s world heavily interconnected, economically, environment, everything in many field, everything interconnected. Therefore, interest is not clear cut. So one side victory, one side defeat is impossible.
Therefore, the best thing is dialogue, compromise. Their interests also written in your own interests. Under that circumstances, destruction of your neighbours is destruction of yourself. Whole world, something like one body. So understand their reality, then carry dialogue, respect others’ interests, respect others’ views, share their interests, then compromise with spiritual reconciliation. So we must promote, we must make every effort, promotion of dialogue.’
I wonder if this is just targetted towards negotiation with China, or this applies to what should be adopted in all circumstances, including with Dorje Shugden practitioners? Desctruction of literary the neighbours is destruction of oneself. In this case, it's not just neighbours, families are separated, Gurus and disciples or vajra/Dharma brothers and sisters are put in awkward situations.
WHEN CAN WE HAVE THIS DIALOGUE?
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I think that the anti Shugden groups and pro Shugden groups should sit down together and solve these issues peacefully because we are living in a civilised society and we are all educated people, why do we have to fight when we have mouths to talk?