dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: beggar on February 21, 2012, 07:25:30 PM
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I had long wondered this, and recently found out from Tibetan friends:
I wondered if, in spite of the ban and having to uphold what the Dalai Lama has instructed, the members of the Tibetan government / parliament are themselves Shugden practitioners?
Apparently, it seems, they are. The old generation of ministers from old Tibet were very highly respected throughout the Tibetan community for their service to the people, and known to be very devoted practitioners of Trijang Rinpoche, Zong Rinpoche and Pabongka Rinpoche. Though they were laypeople, they were also Dharma practitioners and commonly known for being very strong disciples of the greatest lamas in the land. As students of these disciples, they would most definitely have followed in the same tradition and practices of Lama Tsongkhapa, Vajrayogini and Dorje Shugden. Most of them were Gelugpas.
So I'd like to consider a point: could their support of the ban actually have been a premeditated instruction from their teachers? This isn't such a far fetched idea. Samdhong Rinpoche, the former Kalon Tripa, stated very clearly that everything he had done "for the tibetan people" was only because of an instruction from his Guru Trijang Rinpoche - this would have included serving the Dalai Lama, and therefore upholding all his instructions. Have a look here if you haven't already, it'll blow your socks off: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1302.0 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1302.0)
So, could it well have been the same for the many other ministers in the government? Just a thought....
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Guru devotion is one of the main reasons why Tibetan Buddhism has successfully passed down from Lord Buddha Shakyamuni time until today (i.e. unbroken lineage). With Guru devotion, when they received the practice from their Gurus, they will hold and do the practice for the rest of their lives.
Pabongka Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche and Zong Rinpoche are all well know for their Dorje Shugden practices and Dorje Shugden is their Dharma protector. Also, most of the current Buddhist in Tibet are a student of one of three Rinpoches mentioned above, there is no surprise that many ministers are actually practicing Dorje Shugden.
I heard someone shared before that a lot of the ministers are actually still practicing Dorje Shugden, just that they quietly do their practicing. Some even have huge altars in their house specifically for Dorje Shugden.
There is one case where a minister was asking a shop owner to stop doing Dorje Shugden practice. The shop owner got fed up and told the minister, "If you don't stop pestering me, I will inform other that you have a huge Dorje Shugden altar in your house". Immediately the minister backed down and told the shop owner, "You know, I have no choice but to pester you to show that I am still working for CTA".
I would say most of the CTA are actually sercret Shugden agents :)
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Gosh. This is certainly a delicious hypothesis but definitely not far fetched. Samdhong Rinpoche, the previous Kalon Tripa, was renowned for being a great Shugden practitioner - prior to the ban of course. When the ban came in, I'm sure he just went underground in his practice.
I like the story shared by Kris re the Minister having a huge Shugden altar at home! Do you have a source to confirm this? If it's such an open secret that some of the Ministers are Shugden practitioners, i.e. even a shopkeeper knows about it, i am wondering why they are allowed to get away with it. Surely there must be some anti-Shugden police/informants who would tell tales to the Dalai Lama?
Unless the Dalai Lama is closing one eye to those under his watch.
Well, if some of the CTA are Shugden practitioners, and the new and secular Kalon Tripa, Dr. Lobsang Sangye, has decreed the removal of anti-Shugden articles from the CTA website, http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1739.0, (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1739.0,) perhaps there is a secret drive from the CTA’s side towards the lifting of the ban. We can all hope, can’t we.
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At first it surprise me with this news of the CTA people are the Lord Shugden prationers or still practicing but after a deeper thought, it could be like what beggar mentioned, most of them are the practitioners of the great Lamas, Kyabje Pabongkha Ripoche, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and Kyabje Zong Rinpoche. Being a minister such a high position and respectful, they must have devoted to their Guru and follow their Guru’s practices.
Actual I start to begin to think of there could be a lot more people out there just like Samdhong Rinpoche situation.
The ban just created so much unnecessary havoc to the devoted practitioners. Even the enforcers have to practice underground but at least there are at a better ground compare to the devoted practitioners that being outcast.
Wisdombeing mentioned it right; the current Kalon Tripa has started to make a silent move for a change. How many more people need to suffer, if they are really practicing it underground, how long more they want to hide themselves in fear? They can make a different too.
Work towards to the teaching that given by the great master with compassion and repay their kindness by contributing more in lifting the ban.
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Hmmm...good food for thoughts. If the CTA are really working towards making Dorje Shugden globally famous and to millions of practitioners then maybe the time is nigh for the lifting of the ban, hypothetically speaking of course. I would choose to look at it this way so that I would work more and contribute towards the concerted effort by all.
Imagine, Dorje Shugden's initiations being given worldwide by high lamas to thousands of people in huge buildings. Imagine, Dorje Shugden's images being openly worship on our shrines. Imagine, countless millions of beings would be saved and brought onto the higher tantra practices eventually.
Imagine You and me
I do
I think about You day and night
It's only right.....
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From outer appearance CTA are destroying Dorje Shugden practice globally. They are creating bad publicity internationally but whichever publicity whether it is good or bad is still publicity to bring awareness to Dorje Shugden practice. Educated and smart people will not be fooled by its appearance as they will investigate and not loose faith.
DS practice is transmitted and followed by their fore fathers and teachers who had received the practice from an unbroken lineage more than 300 years ago from great masters such as Trijang Rinpoche and Pabongka Rinpoche. I would like to say from their samaya commitment point of view undoubtedly CTA are secret agents of Dorje Shugden.
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I wouldn’t be at all surprised if Beggar was right about people in CTA practicing. Dorje Shugden. The reality is that you cannot change a person’s faith by decree and usually in any effort to forcefully change someone’s belief, all you do is to drive him or her underground.
An institution has no character of its own, and whilst it may be a Constitution or Charter that gives it purpose, it is the people running the institution that makes it what it is.
So let’s look at the people behind the institution known as the CTA. First you have Samdhong Rinpoche who is very clear that all his actions were in fulfillment of his Guru’s instructions. His Guru happened to be the great practitioner and defender of Dorje Shugden, Trijang Rinpoche.
The you have The Dalai Lama who have progressively introduced means to initiate the separation of State and Church, effectively “undermining” his own hegemony and effective removing him as a reason for the Shugden ban. The Dalai Lama’s teacher also happened to be Trijang Rinpoche.
So was the ban premeditated? I would not dismiss it as a ridiculous notion. I am very interested to listen to some theories as to why there was a need to premeditate the controversy.
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Beggar, I believe you are right that the ministers in the CTA are still practicing Dorje Shugden in private. Like many has said, the ministers are students of either Trijang Rinpoche, Zong Rinpoche and Pabongka Rinpoche. And they are the great lamas who have been practicing Dorje Shugden while spreading Lama Tsongkapa's teachings. So, it is very logical that they are following what their teacher has given to them, unless they have stopped their practice and break their guru samaya. Very unlikely though.
Samdong Rinpoche is a very good example of someone who is doing so and admitted to it after his term as Kalon Tripa. How many ministers are there who are students of Trijang Rinpoche? They could be doing the same thing i.e. following their guru's instructions of serving the Dalai Lama.
If this is true, then the CTA is indeed a centre for secret Shugden agents!
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Beggar, I love this post. It got me thinking......are they secret Shugden agents? After contemplating, yes, you are right. Since the ministers are devoted practitioners of the greatest lama ie Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche and Kyabje Zong Rinpoche, they would definitely follow what their Guru told them and I have no doubt that they went underground with their practice. However, what are the reasons for the ban to be premeditated to create so much controversies and sufferings for other DS practitioners?
If this is true, which I hope it is, then I would say most of the CTA are actually secret Shugden agents :)
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Beggar,you have read my mind.......so many accusations, illogical events and statements made by CTA and the Dalai Lama without substantial grounds all reflected something is not quite in order.
Since Dorje Shugden has been practised for over 350 years, and the practice has been passed down from Pabongkha Rinpoche to Trijang Rinpoche and to many high lamas who reside all over the world now, almost every single Sangha is a student of Trijang Rinpoche. Therefore, the laypeople (ministers) of CTA could very well be Shugden practitioners.
Look at Samdhong Rinpoche, he spoke out publicly soon after his term as Kolan Tripa finished. He said all he did as prime minister was to follow his Guru Trijang Rinpoche's instruction. That speaks volume as he is a well known DS practitioner himself, some more it was said he is an emanation of Dorje Shugden also.
Another similar case is the 101th Ganden Tripa, Khensur Lungri Namgyal Rinpoche, who jump camp to Shar Ganden Monastery right after his tenure as Ganden Tripa finished and made a public statement as well.
So there are many high lamas, and I am sure many sangha and lay Tibetan people as well, that they are all practising Dorje Shugden "secretly" when they are holding their "official" positions. And that they have not given up this sacred practice passed down to them from their lineage guru.
Henceforth, the ministers in CTA could very well be "underground" shugden agents!
Last but not the least, Dalai Lama was practising DS as well officially before the ban! Who knows if he is also practising it secretly still ? The "Bigger picture" theory still stands firm and sound to me!
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I personally believe that the CTA people are practicing Dorje Shugden in private as well. The reason is simple: I do not believe that they would give up something that has been given to them from Trijang Rinpoche himself, especially the older generation of Tibetans. However due to everyone else in the government that is against Dorje Shugden they have no choice but to comply and act as if they are against. This is also the same case with the monks in the monasteries who have no choice but to act as if they are against Dorje Shugden. Nobody would give up such a sacred practice that they receive from their own teachers after just a ban. Logically, it does not make sense.
It would be possible that they were forced to act this way because of their positions in the government but they have to act that they are against in order to prove their allegiance or they will lose their jobs. It could be also that they are hoping to overturn the ban from the inside which is why they are complying and keeping quiet. It would be nice if they all band together to help lift the ban, or at least help practitioners who are being oppressed by the ban to get back on their feet.
I can imagine that it won't be easy for them to face this ban and keep their jobs and make sure that their families do not suffer. But at the same time they should not have turned a blind eye against people who did and at least do something like hide the names of those who do or talk to those who do to ask them to practice secretly. In that way they can help protect those who are affected by the ban and embody their Dharma protector at the same time: protecting the unjust and oppressed.
To keep quiet in the face of injustice is to increase it and to be part of it. That is not Dharma at all and how can they be practicing sincerely if they do not even attempt to stop the unjustness and pain that is happening to others. To be honest, even if they were really practitioners, I don't see it. I really hope that they would stand up and help….if they are underground…why aren't they helping the oppressed…give secret support or band together to stand up...
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Honestly, who cares? There may be a few DS practitioners but I doubt all of them were stalwart practitioners. Even if they were practitioners of Dorje Shugden, I would not use it as a great excuse to exonerate them from all the sins of the ban or the unwarranted need to meddle with the monastic order and getting the monks to choose sides. Who are they to tell the monks what to do!? Who give the CTA the right to order monastics who have held their vows and practices since they came over from Tibet.
Who gave CTA the right to split the monastic order apart? Since they have been so sincerely enforcing the ban, have they done anything else that is beneficial to the Tibetan society? Have they thought of finding ways to reclaim Tibet through peaceful means, which is the intention of the Dalai Lama and the Indian government anyway. Have they though of finding ways to repay the kindness of the Indian government for hosting the Tibetan community in exile all these years?
My point are more important issues should be addressed and emphasized that could be more important than the ban. The CTA have this opportunity to address them especially since the Dalai Lama has retired. All these are important issues that will be beneficial instead of split Tibetan harmony. The choice to make or break the Tibetan society is the CTA hands now.
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Shugden's secret agents??? I dont care! Its their loss if they aren't. Majority of Tibetans are students of Lamas who are Dorje Shugden's stalwarts. So if they are not little agents of DS, they not only break their samaya they also forgo the benefits of the practice. Even the 101st Gaden Tripa and Samdong Rinpoche are secret agents, now that they have retired from office and made their 'declaration'. So if the others in CTA chose to give up the practice, too bad!
One the other side of the coin, i think they are agents. They would have been given the commentary of Dorje Shugden saddana by those high lamas so they know the benefits. At the end of the day, human beings are selfish; they want material growth, spiritual growth, good rebirth, and who else besides Dorje Shugden at this degenerate times can be so swift to grant all that?? So outwardly they may renounce the practice to keep their jobs (again for self gain) and secretly continue with the practice (for the benefits stated above).
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Honestly, who cares? There may be a few DS practitioners but I doubt all of them were stalwart practitioners. Even if they were practitioners of Dorje Shugden, I would not use it as a great excuse to exonerate them from all the sins of the ban or the unwarranted need to meddle with the monastic order and getting the monks to choose sides. Who are they to tell the monks what to do!? Who give the CTA the right to order monastics who have held their vows and practices since they came over from Tibet.
Who gave CTA the right to split the monastic order apart? Since they have been so sincerely enforcing the ban, have they done anything else that is beneficial to the Tibetan society? Have they thought of finding ways to reclaim Tibet through peaceful means, which is the intention of the Dalai Lama and the Indian government anyway. Have they though of finding ways to repay the kindness of the Indian government for hosting the Tibetan community in exile all these years?
My point are more important issues should be addressed and emphasized that could be more important than the ban. The CTA have this opportunity to address them especially since the Dalai Lama has retired. All these are important issues that will be beneficial instead of split Tibetan harmony. The choice to make or break the Tibetan society is the CTA hands now.
I agree with Big Uncle. Whether or not the Ministers are secret Shugden agents is a separate issue. So much damage and sufferings have been created to the Tibetans by CTA. Who authorised them to create more sufferings to their people?
Not allowing Tibetans to practise Dorje Shugden is a spiritual issue but not allowing their children to attend schools, not allowing practitioners to associate with non practitioners and treating practioners like outcasts is not a Government should do. How can any Government mistreat their citizens because of their spiritual practice??? This is totally insane! What happened to basic human rights???
If these Ministers are really Shugden practitioners, then clean up their acts immediately and start treating all Tibetans with equal rights and dignity. Being a refugee is tough enough, being further suppressed by their own Government is inhumane!!! I'd rather they return to Tibet under the rule of China. At least the Chinese Government gives them the freedom of religion and supports their practice by rebuilding Shugden temples and monasteries! And they are not treated like outcasts.
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If these Ministers are really Shugden practitioners, then clean up their acts immediately and start treating all Tibetans with equal rights and dignity. Being a refugee is tough enough, being further suppressed by their own Government is inhumane!!! I'd rather they return to Tibet under the rule of China. At least the Chinese Government gives them the freedom of religion and supports their practice by rebuilding Shugden temples and monasteries! And they are not treated like outcasts.
Interesting and valid point you made here Klein.. If they did return to Tibet they WOULD be given the freedom to practice and that point in itself is sad. Even their own so called countrymen in the CTA suppress them to the point of total and utter despair!
If the CTA are indeed secret Shugden agents, I can totally see why they are doing it because they themselves clearly made it impossible to practice in the open. This is surely hypocritical! I hope in HHDL stepping down and creating the "break" between secular and spiritual, CTA will take this as a window of opportunity to finally right a wrong and do as a secular democratic governmental body would do... but then again, it is very hard to tell with all the smoke and mirrors in play!
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The CTA as secret agents of Shugden? My immediate automatic response would have been "No,impossible! How can one reconcile the 'vile' acts of CTA against Shugden practitioners with the possibility that they are are on the same side of the camp of the victims of their cruel heartless anti-Shugden actions and measures? "
But then, what about the shocking almost incredible revelation made by Samdhong Rinpoche when he was on the verge of retiring as Kalon Tripa, head of the CTA? He had said that what he had done all along(acting in concert with the Dalai Lama in enforcing the ban on Shugden practitioners ) had been done out of Guru Devotion: he was merely following the instructions of his Root Guru, Trijang Rinpoche! As Beggar and others have pointed out, the older generation who are members of the CTA are mostly students of great masters like Pabongka Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche and Zong Rinpoche. If great current Lamas, who were students of these great Masters, have steadfastly stuck to their practice of Shugden given to them by these great Masters who were their Root Gurus, I cannot see how and why, older members of the CTA, who also are students of these great Masters would have dared to break their samaya with their Root Gurus by stopping their Shugden practice. It is more logical to see them going underground with their Shugden practice.
Thus the hypothesis that they are secret Shugden practitioners and agents does hold water indeed. And when the ban is lifted we'll have them coming out in full force in the open to declare themselves as Shugden practitioners! Pray that day will come soon with the lifting of the ban! Furthermore, if this hypothesis proves correct, then this lends greater credence to the other hypothesis that all this is a part of a big plan masterminded by great Masters like Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche to ensure the rapid spread of the practice of Dorje Shugden especially in places like populous China, the great powerhouse of today.
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Thank you Beggar for highlighting this. I'm not surprise if CTA officials are undercover DS practitioners, so are most Tibetans, whether they practice openly or secretly.
Most Tibetans are well known for their strong Guru Devotion and they are students of some of the greatest well known Lamas like Trijang Rinpoche, Zong Rinpoche, Pabongka Rinpoche etc. Furthermore, Trijang Rinpoche is also a tutor for HH Dalai Lama. Hence, how many would risk breaking Guru Samaya?
I'm looking forward the lifting of the ban. By then, i'm sure a large number of DS practitioners will mushroom all over the world!!!
Long live Shugden practitioners!!!!
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I certainly would say that CTA are indeed secret agents. If the Dorje Shugden (DS) practice had gone underground since the ban, which is happening anyway, it is logical to deduce that CTA are secret Shugden Agents. Samdhong Rinpoche the previous Kalon Tripa had already proven to us this possibility!
Irrespective of whether CTA are secret agents or otherwise, CTA must clear up the acts of their predecessor Tibetan Government in Exile (TGIE) immediately. His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama’s retirement from secular politics is a clear sign to CTA to do what is necessary to right what “was wrong” – the ban on DS. Since the ban, many DS practitioners especially the holy monastics, Tibetans in exile, and DS practitioners world-wide had endured great suffering at many levels. There is the loss of basic human rights, loss of freedom of spiritual practice, physical sufferings, ostracism, schisms, homelessness, poverty and so on due to the ban.
As the democratic government of the Tibetans in Exile, the least you could do is to reduce the sufferings of the Tibetans in Exile who had already lost their home country. The ban on DS practice had added salt to the wound! Please have compassion for the thousands if not millions of DS practitioners who had suffered. If you are indeed practising DS underground, all the more you should take the remedial actions to lift the ban quickly.
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Thank you for bring out such interesting argument!!
Like a few of those who joined this discussion, I DON'T care whether the CTA officials are actually DS practitioners, my concern are two fold:
1. CTA allows its officials (and those carrying instructions) to abuse DS practitioners and deprives them and their family of basic human rights such as food and education! This gotta STOP if these officials still consider them BUDDHIST! Shame on them !
2. As long as the ban is still in place, the spread of DS' practice will be limited and many people will not be introduced to him. Thus missed out this chance-of-the-life-time practice!
What can we do to help these CTA officials to come to their senses???
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So I'd like to consider a point: could their support of the ban actually have been a premeditated instruction from their teachers?
Then we could also imagine that His Holiness the Dalai Lama was following Trijang Rinpoche's instruction, his Guru's instruction, in instauring the ban.
This would explain why His Holiness still "allows" for Trijang Rinpoche's current incarnation to practice.
My thoughts only...
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It reminds me of something similar. Those who shout and condemn the loudest always have something to hide themselves a pointed finger takes suspicion away from the person doing the pointing. :)
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It reminds me of something similar. Those who shout and condemn the loudest always have something to hide themselves a pointed finger takes suspicion away from the person doing the pointing. :)
LOL. I agree. Many cases among Tibetans themselves that have to point the finger to detract attention away from themselves who are doing Shugden still.
Sad the CTA puts their own people through so much unnecessary suffering. The CTA has created so much problems already. Why did they lose Tibet in the first place? Simple. Corruption, lack of exposure, greed, selfishness, laziness and arrogance.
Sad, it has not changed much. Just a few years left and the sinking ship goes completely under. The CTA are now scrambling to get to USA and get green cards likened to hopping onto life rafts.
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At this point in history, and this is my personal opinion, it looks as if it would even be better for Tibet to be revived from inside and administered by a Chinese administration.
I can't imagine the troubles if an outside administration would now take over the Tibet as is today.
If the TGIE or CTA did not do so well without a real country, how could they coop WITH a real country anyway....
Not to mention that Lhasa and many other parts of Tibet are now chinese spoken, written and driven...
We can't bring back Tibet of 1950 by magic. To forcefully make it entirely Tibetan again would encounter a resistance from the Chinese community who live there and who are victims in a way.
I think the best way forward is from within, and for this I think it is moving along in the right direction with the spread of Dorje Shugden in the country. China will support the Tibet revival into a peaceful administered region of China. Dorje Shugden is a messenger of peace for this particuar instance.
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So I'd like to consider a point: could their support of the ban actually have been a premeditated instruction from their teachers? This isn't such a far fetched idea. Samdhong Rinpoche, the former Kalon Tripa, stated very clearly that everything he had done "for the tibetan people" was only because of an instruction from his Guru Trijang Rinpoche - this would have included serving the Dalai Lama, and therefore upholding all his instructions. Have a look here if you haven't already, it'll blow your socks off: [url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1302.0[/url] ([url]http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1302.0[/url])
So, could it well have been the same for the many other ministers in the government? Just a thought....
I will NOT be surprise if they are Shugden practitioners. There are a few older monks from Sampheling Monastery (Trijang Rinpoche's Monastery) in Chatreng, China has informed a few outsiders that " Trijang Rinpoche's students will follow their GURU and the practices given by Rinpoche. There are many Trijang Rinpoche students around Dalai Lama who OUTWARDLY support Dalai Lama and his stand on Shugden BUT deep down, they still hold this protector practice very close to their heart because of their GURU" When I heard that, it blew my mind cause it is possible that the CTA can be secret Shugden agents along with Dalai Lama.
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The conclusion to this topic is this: even if the CTA officials are Dorje Shugden practitioners, they are for sure, not doing enough or not doing their part to get the ban lifted. I am sure if they insisted for proof and defended their ground, the Dalai Lama would have not been able to implement the ban at all as he does not have a choice. But unfortunately, their own political careers are more important than their spiritual ones, so nothing much can be said there. I do hope that they control TYC more tightly and prevent them from causing more harm to both themselves, the Dorje Shugden practitioners and the Tibetan cause.
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I believe what beggar says, most of them would be pracitising Dorje Shugden hidden from public eye. The people that are still discriminating or mistreating the self declared Dorje Shugden practitioners are probably extremists and are probably not real Buddhists as real Buddhists would not harm others. I believe there are going to be more changes in the CTA policy re the banning of Dorje Shugden practice or discriminating Dorje Shugden practitioners. I hope the there will be news on lifting the ban in near future.
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I believe what beggar says, most of them would be pracitising Dorje Shugden hidden from public eye. The people that are still discriminating or mistreating the self declared Dorje Shugden practitioners are probably extremists and are probably not real Buddhists as real Buddhists would not harm others. I believe there are going to be more changes in the CTA policy re the banning of Dorje Shugden practice or discriminating Dorje Shugden practitioners. I hope the there will be news on lifting the ban in near future.
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I believe what beggar says, most of them would be pracitising Dorje Shugden hidden from public eye. The people that are still discriminating or mistreating the self declared Dorje Shugden practitioners are probably extremists and are probably not real Buddhists as real Buddhists would not harm others. I believe there are going to be more changes in the CTA policy re the banning of Dorje Shugden practice or discriminating Dorje Shugden practitioners. I hope the there will be news on lifting the ban in near future.
Even if they are practicing in secret, none of them are taking actions to at least moderate the anti Shugden behavior, which automatically nullifies their Dorje Shugden practice. Why? because they are not sacrificing their comfort zones to do the right thing at all. All of them do not dare to speak up because they are too afraid to lose their positions in the parliament or in the community. If the practicing CTA officials band together, I am sure the ban can be easily overturned as the Dalai Lama will not ban something if he sees that it has hurt so many people. But they failed their Guru, protector and Dharma brothers and sisters. Sad.