dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Jane on March 01, 2008, 10:41:24 AM
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Isn´t forcing people to promise never to share any material things or keep any kind of relation with Dorje Shugden practitioners a henious action of unlimited evil potential?
Tibetans and non Tibetans who take this promise will allow their neighbours to die of hunger, if a car runs over a Dorje Shugden practitioner, they will leave him die, doctors may deny care to others...
I wonder... if they would have the power to kill them, what will stop them from doing so? Their wishes will be fulfilled.
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Jane, sometimes I do wonder if there was no karma for a day, what would I do? But the fact is, as much as its nice to escape to a no-karma world, there will NEVER be NO karma. Why? Because Buddha didnt make up the law; he DESCRIBED a universal law that exists (like gravity), that is inescapable no matter what faith you manifest. So the ironic thing is, whilst these Tibetans are so caught up in the pettiness of the ban, they forget that the clock of karma is forever ticking, and their ledger is fast filling up with red for all the horrible things they have done to others.
Jesus even the Christians are better! If your gay, they sit with you and counsel you and try to talk you out of it. Thats even more compassionate than the Tibetans who just ostracise and ignore you...theres no compassion for Dorje Shugden devotees at all!
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Jane, sometimes I do wonder if there was no karma for a day, what would I do? But the fact is, as much as its nice to escape to a no-karma world, there will NEVER be NO karma. Why? Because Buddha didnt make up the law; he DESCRIBED a universal law that exists (like gravity), that is inescapable no matter what faith you manifest. So the ironic thing is, whilst these Tibetans are so caught up in the pettiness of the ban, they forget that the clock of karma is forever ticking, and their ledger is fast filling up with red for all the horrible things they have done to others.
Jesus even the Christians are better! If your gay, they sit with you and counsel you and try to talk you out of it. Thats even more compassionate than the Tibetans who just ostracise and ignore you...theres no compassion for Dorje Shugden devotees at all!
The tibetans think that their acts of cruelty is justified because it's the Dalai Lama's will. As long as it is the Dalai Lama's will, it is okay to be cruel to others. It is okay to burn their homes. It is okay to deny them of food and medicine. It is okay to kill them. And the Tibetans do not wish to 'get out' from this mentality because it is the easier way than to actually apply the Dharma in their minds. The Dorje Shugden ban brings out the worst in the Tibetans as well as the western people who adhere to the ban as we can see a lot of interesting things that they are doing that are very harmful to others, and yet they justify their actions as if it was okay because its the Dalai Lama's orders and if you are not in line with them, you're wrong and evil.
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Jane, sometimes I do wonder if there was no karma for a day, what would I do? But the fact is, as much as its nice to escape to a no-karma world, there will NEVER be NO karma. Why? Because Buddha didnt make up the law; he DESCRIBED a universal law that exists (like gravity), that is inescapable no matter what faith you manifest. So the ironic thing is, whilst these Tibetans are so caught up in the pettiness of the ban, they forget that the clock of karma is forever ticking, and their ledger is fast filling up with red for all the horrible things they have done to others.
Jesus even the Christians are better! If your gay, they sit with you and counsel you and try to talk you out of it. Thats even more compassionate than the Tibetans who just ostracise and ignore you...theres no compassion for Dorje Shugden devotees at all!
The tibetans think that their acts of cruelty is justified because it's the Dalai Lama's will. As long as it is the Dalai Lama's will, it is okay to be cruel to others. It is okay to burn their homes. It is okay to deny them of food and medicine. It is okay to kill them. And the Tibetans do not wish to 'get out' from this mentality because it is the easier way than to actually apply the Dharma in their minds. The Dorje Shugden ban brings out the worst in the Tibetans as well as the western people who adhere to the ban as we can see a lot of interesting things that they are doing that are very harmful to others, and yet they justify their actions as if it was okay because its the Dalai Lama's orders and if you are not in line with them, you're wrong and evil.
It's not Tibetans per se but specifically the Tibetans in CTA. They are big bullies who hide behind other people's skirts while carrying out their so called 'duties.' And they love it! Because they have the temporary power and control over defenseless people. And with power and control, there's money to be made. What about spirituality? Nah! There's no spiritual duties or practices because there's no personal and monetary gains here to be made.
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The tibetans think that their acts of cruelty is justified because it's the Dalai Lama's will. As long as it is the Dalai Lama's will, it is okay to be cruel to others. It is okay to burn their homes. It is okay to deny them of food and medicine. It is okay to kill them.....yet they justify their actions as if it was okay because its the Dalai Lama's orders and if you are not in line with them, you're wrong and evil.
The Dalai Lama never actually ordered people to enact such violent acts of cruelty. He imposed the ban, he did authorise the expulsion of monks and encouraged people not to associate with DS practitioners - that is bad enough in itself. Some might argue that the dalai lama has never publicly endorsed people smashing each other's homes, burning statues, attacking Dorje Shugden practitioners and say that these were acts that were done simply out of the "free will" of individuals...
Still, we must also consider the fact that silence on the part of the Dalai Lama and the CTA can actually mean approval of these acts. Dalai Lama supporters are not reprimanded in any way for their actions, so of course they will continue doing what they're doing. The lack of any comment on these actions - or outright denial - from the Dalai Lama or his people can only mean that they endorse these acts. It cannot be that they do not know of what's happening at such a serious level among their own community. It cannot be that they know about these acts but still remain quiet about it and not take any action against such atrocities. So the only logical conclusion is that they DO know what's going on and are silently encouraging it.
In answer to Jane's original question: yes, it can indeed be said that opens up an unlimited potential for collecting negative karma and creating evils. The very fact that people are encouraged to ostracise / disassociate from Dorje Shugden practitioners is already one of the 5 heinous crimes - it has created great schism in the monastic community such that teachers are separated from students, and monasteries have had to split.
This is exactly the confusing dilemma that has been opened up - why would the Dalai Lama consciously and willing set up his own people to fail like this ?
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Jane, sometimes I do wonder if there was no karma for a day, what would I do? But the fact is, as much as its nice to escape to a no-karma world, there will NEVER be NO karma. Why? Because Buddha didnt make up the law; he DESCRIBED a universal law that exists (like gravity), that is inescapable no matter what faith you manifest. So the ironic thing is, whilst these Tibetans are so caught up in the pettiness of the ban, they forget that the clock of karma is forever ticking, and their ledger is fast filling up with red for all the horrible things they have done to others.
Jesus even the Christians are better! If your gay, they sit with you and counsel you and try to talk you out of it. Thats even more compassionate than the Tibetans who just ostracise and ignore you...theres no compassion for Dorje Shugden devotees at all!
The tibetans think that their acts of cruelty is justified because it's the Dalai Lama's will. As long as it is the Dalai Lama's will, it is okay to be cruel to others. It is okay to burn their homes. It is okay to deny them of food and medicine. It is okay to kill them. And the Tibetans do not wish to 'get out' from this mentality because it is the easier way than to actually apply the Dharma in their minds. The Dorje Shugden ban brings out the worst in the Tibetans as well as the western people who adhere to the ban as we can see a lot of interesting things that they are doing that are very harmful to others, and yet they justify their actions as if it was okay because its the Dalai Lama's orders and if you are not in line with them, you're wrong and evil.
Yes I must agree with what Dharma Defender said...
@Ensapa, well, I truly love the Dalai Lama and believe very well that He is Chenrezig... but lets just put it this way, not even Karma is below the Dalai Lama. The way you put things about the Tibetans made me think further, I didn't realize that they would just blindly follow the Dalai Lama, after all I'm not Tibetan and I really didn't realized that they take the Dalai Lama's words at face value... without thinking further for themselves... isn't that sort of like blind faith? Strange that a culture that is infused with Buddhism, the only belief system that encourages their practitioners to think, meditate and come up with an unshakable conclusion of the truth... would act in such manner. If it wasn't for the ban on DS, I would think that the Tibetans are very wise people...
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Jane, sometimes I do wonder if there was no karma for a day, what would I do? But the fact is, as much as its nice to escape to a no-karma world, there will NEVER be NO karma. Why? Because Buddha didnt make up the law; he DESCRIBED a universal law that exists (like gravity), that is inescapable no matter what faith you manifest. So the ironic thing is, whilst these Tibetans are so caught up in the pettiness of the ban, they forget that the clock of karma is forever ticking, and their ledger is fast filling up with red for all the horrible things they have done to others.
Jesus even the Christians are better! If your gay, they sit with you and counsel you and try to talk you out of it. Thats even more compassionate than the Tibetans who just ostracise and ignore you...theres no compassion for Dorje Shugden devotees at all!
The tibetans think that their acts of cruelty is justified because it's the Dalai Lama's will. As long as it is the Dalai Lama's will, it is okay to be cruel to others. It is okay to burn their homes. It is okay to deny them of food and medicine. It is okay to kill them. And the Tibetans do not wish to 'get out' from this mentality because it is the easier way than to actually apply the Dharma in their minds. The Dorje Shugden ban brings out the worst in the Tibetans as well as the western people who adhere to the ban as we can see a lot of interesting things that they are doing that are very harmful to others, and yet they justify their actions as if it was okay because its the Dalai Lama's orders and if you are not in line with them, you're wrong and evil.
Yes I must agree with what Dharma Defender said...
@Ensapa, well, I truly love the Dalai Lama and believe very well that He is Chenrezig... but lets just put it this way, not even Karma is below the Dalai Lama. The way you put things about the Tibetans made me think further, I didn't realize that they would just blindly follow the Dalai Lama, after all I'm not Tibetan and I really didn't realized that they take the Dalai Lama's words at face value... without thinking further for themselves... isn't that sort of like blind faith? Strange that a culture that is infused with Buddhism, the only belief system that encourages their practitioners to think, meditate and come up with an unshakable conclusion of the truth... would act in such manner. If it wasn't for the ban on DS, I would think that the Tibetans are very wise people...
TRUE Q... I would have thought the Tibetans are compassionate, kind loving and thinkers. All this self-immolation act shows me how so attached they are actually. To be honest it seems like Buddhism is really dying within... from the very source that preserved them so well! It is amazing isn't it, you could see how all this story will be concluding. I don't know about them, but I will surely be worried and would think about this... they are self destructing literally.
@Jane - The cause will resemble the results... no one escapes karma... it is not beyond and above anyone... so I guess this is why the Tibetans lost their country? The were Barbarians and warriors and did a lot of killing before Buddhism took root. So yes it is very dangerous how they are acting now will result to what they will end up being hence they should realise this soon so as not to create anymore negativities for their karma. No one, not even the Buddhas can save us from our own Karma... that is what the Buddha taught so unless the Buddhas are all wrong and the CTA and Tibetans are right.
Being kind has nothing to do with Buddhism... it is called being human. Anyone can see this, you do not need to be a rocket science to figure this out... my dog can be kind why can't the non-Shugden practitioners be kind?
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Jane, sometimes I do wonder if there was no karma for a day, what would I do? But the fact is, as much as its nice to escape to a no-karma world, there will NEVER be NO karma. Why? Because Buddha didnt make up the law; he DESCRIBED a universal law that exists (like gravity), that is inescapable no matter what faith you manifest. So the ironic thing is, whilst these Tibetans are so caught up in the pettiness of the ban, they forget that the clock of karma is forever ticking, and their ledger is fast filling up with red for all the horrible things they have done to others.
Jesus even the Christians are better! If your gay, they sit with you and counsel you and try to talk you out of it. Thats even more compassionate than the Tibetans who just ostracise and ignore you...theres no compassion for Dorje Shugden devotees at all!
The tibetans think that their acts of cruelty is justified because it's the Dalai Lama's will. As long as it is the Dalai Lama's will, it is okay to be cruel to others. It is okay to burn their homes. It is okay to deny them of food and medicine. It is okay to kill them. And the Tibetans do not wish to 'get out' from this mentality because it is the easier way than to actually apply the Dharma in their minds. The Dorje Shugden ban brings out the worst in the Tibetans as well as the western people who adhere to the ban as we can see a lot of interesting things that they are doing that are very harmful to others, and yet they justify their actions as if it was okay because its the Dalai Lama's orders and if you are not in line with them, you're wrong and evil.
Yes I must agree with what Dharma Defender said...
@Ensapa, well, I truly love the Dalai Lama and believe very well that He is Chenrezig... but lets just put it this way, not even Karma is below the Dalai Lama. The way you put things about the Tibetans made me think further, I didn't realize that they would just blindly follow the Dalai Lama, after all I'm not Tibetan and I really didn't realized that they take the Dalai Lama's words at face value... without thinking further for themselves... isn't that sort of like blind faith? Strange that a culture that is infused with Buddhism, the only belief system that encourages their practitioners to think, meditate and come up with an unshakable conclusion of the truth... would act in such manner. If it wasn't for the ban on DS, I would think that the Tibetans are very wise people...
But that isnt even the worse part. The worse part is that the supposedly more 'educated' western students are all following the Dalai Lama out of blind faith and swallowing whatever the Dalai Lama says without investigation and some of them even believe in superstition that Dorje Shugden will bring hem bad luck and avoid anything at all that has to do with Dorje Shugden. I find that a very interesting phenomena because as Buddhists we are encourage to investigate everything instead of just believing blindly but why are there so many western students that choose to disregard this and choose to believe the 'easier' way?
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Jane, sometimes I do wonder if there was no karma for a day, what would I do? But the fact is, as much as its nice to escape to a no-karma world, there will NEVER be NO karma. Why? Because Buddha didnt make up the law; he DESCRIBED a universal law that exists (like gravity), that is inescapable no matter what faith you manifest. So the ironic thing is, whilst these Tibetans are so caught up in the pettiness of the ban, they forget that the clock of karma is forever ticking, and their ledger is fast filling up with red for all the horrible things they have done to others.
Jesus even the Christians are better! If your gay, they sit with you and counsel you and try to talk you out of it. Thats even more compassionate than the Tibetans who just ostracise and ignore you...theres no compassion for Dorje Shugden devotees at all!
Yes, thank you for your comment and I think that what you said makes a lot of sense. I like how you compare the universal quality of karma to the universal quality of gravity. I think that makes a lot of sense because many zealots out there who are going all out to enforce the ban and they fail to realize that there is a lot of negative karma involved with such a ban.
There's no way one can escape collecting incredible amounts of negative karma and in enforcing the ban, one can truly see if one is practicing the Dharma or not. You know it is really sad that practitioners of our own tradition would be so hostile to our practitioners just because of Dorje Shugden. It is even more interesting that it takes a Nyingma lama like Penor Rinpoche to show compassion to Dorje Shugden practitioners who are ostracized from the society they live in. (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/hh-penor-rinpoche-sympathetic-to-dorje-shugden-monks/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/hh-penor-rinpoche-sympathetic-to-dorje-shugden-monks/))
This is very interesting because it makes me wonder if the ban on Dorje Shugden also a ban on showing compassion to these practitioners? It is very unBuddhist and very medieval. It reflects very badly on the Central Tibetan Administration who is allowing this to happen or may even encourage this. What kind of government is this?
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Jane, sometimes I do wonder if there was no karma for a day, what would I do? But the fact is, as much as its nice to escape to a no-karma world, there will NEVER be NO karma. Why? Because Buddha didnt make up the law; he DESCRIBED a universal law that exists (like gravity), that is inescapable no matter what faith you manifest. So the ironic thing is, whilst these Tibetans are so caught up in the pettiness of the ban, they forget that the clock of karma is forever ticking, and their ledger is fast filling up with red for all the horrible things they have done to others.
Jesus even the Christians are better! If your gay, they sit with you and counsel you and try to talk you out of it. Thats even more compassionate than the Tibetans who just ostracise and ignore you...theres no compassion for Dorje Shugden devotees at all!
If only karma ceased to exist for a day indeed!!! However we know that will never be possible. Being devil's advocate, what you say DharmaDefender about the Christian method being better, I beg to differ...
Why? Well, I do not think sitting someone down with the intention of dissuading one from being gay is any better. The motivation behind it is that it is wrong to be gay and that they have the moral right to change you in itself is a grave encroachment of human rights... I do not for a moment condone the ban in any way but merely illustrating that BOTH are equally as bad because in either case the motivation is harm or from a perspective of "I am better than thou" which in itself is already a "injustice".
If the Christian's way of counseling were truly compassionate, whatever outcome of the counsel, it would still arise in acceptance but I do not think that is ever the case. It often ends in tears, being stigmatized and ostracized ... what good does that serve anyone?
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I wonder why even more civilized students of the Dalai Lama would follow blindly with regards to the ban of Dorje Shugden practice, why they do not just check with facts rather than just follow the bandwagon. I just hope they will take some time to really read and watch what was provided nicely here so that they can really understand the whole picture. Did the Dalai Lama really endorsed killings or mistreatment on Dorje Shugden practitioners? I don't remember seeing such articles/direct instructions on videos that they should discriminate and mistreat Dorje Shugden practitioners. Clearly instructions were from some cowards and not Dalai Lama!
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I wonder why even more civilized students of the Dalai Lama would follow blindly with regards to the ban of Dorje Shugden practice, why they do not just check with facts rather than just follow the bandwagon. I just hope they will take some time to really read and watch what was provided nicely here so that they can really understand the whole picture. Did the Dalai Lama really endorsed killings or mistreatment on Dorje Shugden practitioners? I don't remember seeing such articles/direct instructions on videos that they should discriminate and mistreat Dorje Shugden practitioners. Clearly instructions were from some cowards and not Dalai Lama!
This is also one very mysterious thing that i am still wrapping my head towards: why are the Dalai Lama's more educated students so insistent on blind faith? is it that they are finding it easier to just believe what the Dalai Lama has taught instead of investigating of what is being said and reading the facts from both sides instead of just only one side? I mean, these people were given education in science and technology and history!! They should have been a lot more discerning than this when it comes to just believing...or at least they could have focused more on the Buddha's teachings instead of a 'demon'.
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Unfortunately it is easier to be distracted from true practice and gaining knowledge by witch hunts. Through centuries, humans seem to be inclined to witch hunts based on religious fervor. It's pack mentality and a desperate need to feel superior.
Look at the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, even the anti-semitism of the Nazis in our recent history. So much blood shed in the name of religion, and yet we DO NOT LEARN from history. Here, it is completely non-logical herd mentality to just attack a perceived "common enemy" - Dorje Shugden practitioners - who are really scape goats, in order for Tibetans to avoid thinking about the lack of progress in Tibetan independence/autonomy.
If only people can take one step backwards and look at the whole picture (this is not even in relation to the "bigger picture" theory as suggested by this website), we would see that any kind of violent discrimination solely based on religion is negative. How can Buddhists act and think this way? Please think again.
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Ensapa,
Wrap your head no more. ;D The truth be told, you have been following out of blind faith. Is your guru greater than His Holiness the Dalai Lama?
The benefits HHDL has brought to the world for the last 50 years cannot be matched by any lama. This shows his greatness and uniqueness. Such a lama of the hightest calibre, you can bet your bottom dollar, he is perfect. :)
I wonder why even more civilized students of the Dalai Lama would follow blindly with regards to the ban of Dorje Shugden practice, why they do not just check with facts rather than just follow the bandwagon. I just hope they will take some time to really read and watch what was provided nicely here so that they can really understand the whole picture. Did the Dalai Lama really endorsed killings or mistreatment on Dorje Shugden practitioners? I don't remember seeing such articles/direct instructions on videos that they should discriminate and mistreat Dorje Shugden practitioners. Clearly instructions were from some cowards and not Dalai Lama!
This is also one very mysterious thing that i am still wrapping my head towards: why are the Dalai Lama's more educated students so insistent on blind faith? is it that they are finding it easier to just believe what the Dalai Lama has taught instead of investigating of what is being said and reading the facts from both sides instead of just only one side? I mean, these people were given education in science and technology and history!! They should have been a lot more discerning than this when it comes to just believing...or at least they could have focused more on the Buddha's teachings instead of a 'demon'.
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Ensapa,
Wrap your head no more. ;D The truth be told, you have been following out of blind faith. Is your guru greater than His Holiness the Dalai Lama?
The benefits HHDL has brought to the world for the last 50 years cannot be matched by any lama. This shows his greatness and uniqueness. Such a lama of the hightest calibre, you can bet your bottom dollar, he is perfect. :)
The Dalai Lama is the perfect teacher if you live in Dharamsala and you gain direct access to him. Otherwise, it is hard to establish the standard Guru-Student relationship with him as a Guru's physical closeness to the student is required for the Guru to have a traditional Guru-Student relationship whereby the student is actually being observed and trained by the Guru and vice versa. As a Tibetan Buddhist, I am grateful to the Dalai Lama for spreading and preserving the teachings, but I would not go to him and call him my spiritual teacher simply because he probably has so many more students to take care and to give teachings to. I need more training and more attention so I'd choose a Guru that is more accessible to me and not have to wait for a long queue or go through all kinds of procedures just to get his advice or blessing. The Dalai Lama cannot overwrite what my current Guru has taught me, the Dalai Lama cannot give me tailor made advice and neither will he be able to give me advice that specifically help benefit me and lift me away from samsara.
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This is just so wrong and I will never in my life, agree to this. I believe that His Holiness doesn't mean for it to be this way but there are just some people who are dying to be famous stirring things up. If this is how anti Dorje Shugden Buddhists live their lives, I don't see how is this making them Buddhists. In fact I am sorry to say this, they are actually defaming the traditional meaning of being a Buddhist.
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This is pure discrimination. It is the same level as racism, which is totally not acceptable.
It is like saying, because you are Dorje Shugden practitioners, I don't care if you do your job well, I don't care if you follow the law, I don't care if you have contributed to the society, I don't care if you have help many charity organisation, as long as you are Dorje Shugden practitioners, I will not be associated with you.
Does this sound familiar? It sure does sound familiar because this is how they discriminate people of different skin colour not too long ago. At that time, it is considered "OK" and "acceptable" but eventually, when people are more educated and have respect for others, they realise we are all the same and we should not discriminate.
It is very interesting to know that many people in the west who are brought up in the democratic way, when they listen to HH Dalai Lama's words, they don't think for themselves, and just discriminate, even though they learnt that discrimination based on skin colour, gender, etc are wrong.
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This is also one very mysterious thing that i am still wrapping my head towards: why are the Dalai Lama's more educated students so insistent on blind faith? is it that they are finding it easier to just believe what the Dalai Lama has taught instead of investigating of what is being said and reading the facts from both sides instead of just only one side? I mean, these people were given education in science and technology and history!! They should have been a lot more discerning than this when it comes to just believing...or at least they could have focused more on the Buddha's teachings instead of a 'demon'.
In my opinion, I think some people are just being ignorant. Instead of putting effort investigating what is truly happening, they actually just believe what they hear. It doesn't matter if the person is educated or not, an educated person can have ignorance too. We should always listen to both sides, understand and contemplate. Blind faith will not be enough, we need to have some wisdom too. As the buddha said, we should always investigate whatever we hear.
Tenzin Gyatso,
I don't think there aren't any lamas out there who is not as attained as HHDL. There are so many high lamas out there or even hermit monks that are attained. Nobody knows how attained they are. To me, they are all great, highly attained beings and I respect them. It is just because HHDL is more involved in the outside activities around the world doesn't mean he have done more than other lamas. There are a lot of lamas have been teaching, and educating a lot of monk that became geshes today.