dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: VS on January 17, 2012, 09:07:30 AM
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DS in very compassionate and appropriate in this degenerate age. However, is it ok to introduce DS to people who are in the 'illegal' traits with the hope that they'll be blessed and turn over a new leaf?
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Why not? DS is a Buddha, he can only benefit. But on the other hand if these people tell everyone it will give DS a bad impression. But it might be possible that if you introduce you will plant a very strong connection in their mind and they might even switch professions to do something that are better and not illegal.
But if you ask me, i think you should. DS could change his way of thinking and help him to transform because DS is a Buddha, a very powerful Buddha who can swiftly assist us. If your introduce to him at least there is this chance he will benefit rather than none at all if you dont introduce.
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Maybe introducing them to the 3 principal paths would be of more benefit.
My Teacher says that without a foundation of these 3 paths, a Protector can not be of much benefit.
I have come to the conclusion that it is much more important to share the 3 principal paths than it is to introduce our Protector to those with no solid basis.
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I also think it is much more important to 'promote' the 3 principal paths than it is to 'promote' Dorje Shugden. :)
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I also think it is much more important to 'promote' the 3 principal paths than it is to 'promote' Dorje Shugden. :)
There is indeed very little that can be done without at least a mind of renunciation.
But if I encounter someone who has very little karma to even understand the basics of renunciation, and yet if that person is open to the practice of DS, perhaps then it is better?
This may bring causes to engage in the 3 paths later and also create imprints.
Though essentially, I agree, there is no sense in a Protector if what is protected is being ignored...
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I also think it is much more important to 'promote' the 3 principal paths than it is to 'promote' Dorje Shugden. :)
Yes thats true Tenpa-la intorducing people to refuge would be a good start as well.
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Whilst I completely agree with Losang Tenpa, I think people engaging in illicit activities are probably not going to be interested in the three principle paths... of course I am willing to be proved totally wrong! :o in any case, 'much' and 'more' are relative terms. For the people that vs are talking about, I think some benefit is better than 'none' :)
Dorje Shugden can be used as a conduit to attract people to the three principle paths. Forgive me if Im wrong in saying this but in my experience with him, his assistance tends to be extremely swift at first, with few Dharma teachings involved (or rather the teachings arent so heavy on the philosophy - its just very straightforward advice)... and then when your faith in him has taken root, his assistance slowly transforms into something 'slower' with more Dharma teachings included.
Of course ultimately the best protector for us is an unshakeable belief in karma. The Dharma protectors can do nowt for us if we dont hav the merit to receive their assistance.
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DS in very compassionate and appropriate in this degenerate age. However, is it ok to introduce DS to people who are in the 'illegal' traits with the hope that they'll be blessed and turn over a new leaf?
Hey VS to answer your original question, I think its perfectly appropriate. If we started saying Dorje Shugden wasnt for this and that person, and this persons not clean enough for Dorje Shugden, wed be just like them Christians and we wouldnt to become like them Christians now aye?
Anyway, if Dorje Shugden doesnt make a distinction regarding who he helps, then why should we? Ive not heard him say he wont help someone because of their skin colour, religion, culture, much less choice of livelihood.
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I would think that whatever you do, it is still OK to practice any Buddha's practice. However, I feel that DS is exceptionally beneficially because He will give you wealth to attract you to Him, and plant seed of Manjushri to him.
The Dorje Shugden chapel in Thailand is in Surawong area, it is a red light district with a lot of "illegal" stuffs going on. It is said that the chapel is specifically installed there to purify the bad karma of the people who did all the "illegal" stuff.. Therefore, I would say that it is definitely OK to introduce DS to them!
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i agree with DharmaDefender who said that people who are into illegal stuff are rather unlikely to be attracted to the three principal paths. However if Dorje Shugden can grant them some worldly wishes, it may provide the incentive for them to propitiate Dorje Shugden and that would be how Dorje Shugden hooks them in to the Dharma which he protects.
I always think that it's better for everyone to have some benefit than none at all. These people who are into illegal stuff are the ones who really need the blessings of Dorje Shugden to turn their lives around, so why would the practice not be appropriate for them? If the practice is for holy people only, 99% of the planet would be excluded.
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Let's face it, the people who are in the illegal trade are most likely into it because of the money and not Dharma. If we go on deep with them, they will definitely be turned off. So, it would be good if we introduce Dorje Shugden to them because we intro them to something they are interested in i.e. wealth.
By practicing Dorje Shugden their sort term objective of getting money will be fulfilled and this will lead them to believe more in Dorje Shugden and hopefuly they will continue with it. They may not be enlightened this lifetime, the very least, there is dharma seed being planted into their mind, so that they can continue their dharma journey when the seed ripens in their mindstream.
In the mean time, they can intro DS to more people if DS has helped them.
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I would think that whatever you do, it is still OK to practice any Buddha's practice. However, I feel that DS is exceptionally beneficially because He will give you wealth to attract you to Him, and plant seed of Manjushri to him.
The Dorje Shugden chapel in Thailand is in Surawong area, it is a red light district with a lot of "illegal" stuffs going on. It is said that the chapel is specifically installed there to purify the bad karma of the people who did all the "illegal" stuff.. Therefore, I would say that it is definitely OK to introduce DS to them!
Whoever who build Dorje Shugden chapel in the red light district in Thailand must have wanted to benefit the people around there. I do not think the whole motivation is to to help the people in Surawong who is conducting "illegal" business to do more harm to themselves. On the other hand, it's to give them hope.
Some prostitutes in Thailand comes from such poor background that they have no choice but to engage in such "work" to support and feed their families back in the village. They actually feel like they need to repay the kindness of their parents who gave life to them by being a good son/daughter.
The benefit they reap from praying to DS can help them generate merits to have a better life in future. Secondly, by seeing the image of DS plants the seed of Manjushri in their midstream in hope that these people can actually practice DS and meet Maitreya in the future. When that happens, it is a blessing.
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DS in very compassionate and appropriate in this degenerate age. However, is it ok to introduce DS to people who are in the 'illegal' traits with the hope that they'll be blessed and turn over a new leaf?
Well... very simply... Dorje Shugden is a Buddha and to introduce a Buddha to anyone is beneficial even if it is to plant seeds in their mindstream. After all, it is much better to do that then not do anything at all. I remember this phrase which my mother drummed into me as a child (coming from a Catholic upbringing) growing up:
"For evil to triumph is for good to do nothing!"
Yes, it means fence sitters who think they are not doing anything wrong by not doing anything is just as guilty as it means we do not care enough.
So coming back to the question if it is ok to introduce Our King to people who are doing 'illegal' traits, well, they most certainly need it so why not! :)
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Just like what everyone has stated that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha so why not plant some Manjushri in people's mind stream? I just thought if we can choose to introduce the practice or not but we can not stop who is praying to him. Just like Buddha, wouldn't the "illegal traits" praying to Buddha too? for material gains and wealth? So is it ok? All compassion Buddha are equal, they would want the same for us, to eliminate our sufferings, plant seeds, develop an altruistic mind and eventually enlightenment. So i would gather that whether we have the merits to become enlighten this life time or not, it is essential to even practice Dharma and plant seeds. It might not ripen this life but when something triggers, it will open next life... So whether the people is good or bad, they are deserve to live without sufferings, unhappiness and anger. And DS is the protector of this very age, he is swift and decisive. He will use our attachment to attract us to Dharma and when we start practicing, only we can eliminate our unhappiness and sufferings... So the best if to introduce DS to them regardless what they are. We all deserve a chance.
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i agree with DharmaDefender who said that people who are into illegal stuff are rather unlikely to be attracted to the three principal paths. However if Dorje Shugden can grant them some worldly wishes, it may provide the incentive for them to propitiate Dorje Shugden and that would be how Dorje Shugden hooks them in to the Dharma which he protects.
I always think that it's better for everyone to have some benefit than none at all. These people who are into illegal stuff are the ones who really need the blessings of Dorje Shugden to turn their lives around, so why would the practice not be appropriate for them? If the practice is for holy people only, 99% of the planet would be excluded.
Dorje Shugden is manifested particulary for this degenerated age where greed, anger and desire prevail every single mind of the deluded sentient being. So it is most appropriate to introduce Dorje Shugen to people who are doing illegal traits, same reasoning with what WisdomBeing has mentioned above.
At the age, how many of us go to temple to pray for enlightenment?? And how many of us go to temple to pray for more money? Dorje Shugden can sepcifically target our greedy minds by fulfilling our wishes and then in turn when we make the connection with him, we are allowing a chanel for further dharma to be taught.
There are 5 forms of Dorje Shugden, for people who are in illegal business, perhaps introducing them "Karma Shugden"would be great as they are completely deluded and are loaded with heavy negative energies.
Five families (aggregates)
Duldzin Dorje Shugden: consciousness. He gives wisdom and shows the way.
Vairochana Shugden: form. He purifies negative karma and obstacles.
Ratna Shugden: feeling. He increases what is good.
Padma Shugden: discrimination. He brings peace of mind.
Karma Shugden: compositional factors. He helps in overcoming delusions and harmful energies
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Even people engaging in illegal activities need a chance to be enlightened. The people doing negative things, yes they may get a lot of benefits doing their illegal work but Karma will one day collect whether one likes it or not that is certain. So it would be compassionate to introduce Dorje Shugden to them.
Viewing a Buddha form in anger, plants countless seeds of enlightenment for the person so why won't these people seeing Manjushri plant seeds of liberation in them, better than nothing. People who engage in illegal the chances of them wanting to know more about refuge or 3 principal paths seems a very distant future! Possible but highly unlikely. Imagine a Ukrainian mobster with lamrim, 3 principal paths and refuge not likely, better chance if he is told he will be protected by Dorje Shudgen. I am absolutely sure DS will not help them to further create more negativity.
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It is my belief that it is precisely because they are in these "illegal" ways of living that we should introduce Dorje Shugden to them, so that they have some connection in their lives to something that is good. I don't understand how there could be any disadvantage of disbenefiting to introducing something holy to anyone, no matter their background. It is taught that even simply seeing the image of a Buddha plants immeasurable positive imprints that can open at a later time for them to practice the Dharma and relieve their own sufferings. As Buddhists, shouldn't we want to bring this benefit to as many people as possible? More importantly, shouldn't we want to bring the benefit of a being as holy as DS to the people who are suffering the most (or creating the caueses for themselves to suffer more in the future?) If we are saying that Dalai Lama followers should have even more compassion for the people they dislike and believe to be wrong (i.e. ds practitioners), then shouldn't we also do the same for others?
Also, as an enlightened being, Dorje Shugden would not ever help to fulfil any wishes they make that would make them worse or which would further their negative actions. So there shouldn't be any worry about these people "abusing" Dorje Shugden's practice or using it for bad means. On the contrary, as many have already shared here, he would in fact help them to create the good karma or merit to be able to gain some faith in the Dharma and perhaps engage in more serious practice later. His practice can also be very protective, to prevent them further harm - either to themselves or others.
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It is definitely ok to introduce Shugden to everyone immediately. Shugden's whole body is representative of the paths and stages to full enlightenment. Every part of Shugden is a facet of enlightenment. Therefore viewing, thinking, meditating or contemplating even for a short time will plant the seeds of awakening within the viewer's mindstream.
When anyone worships Shugden, he may grant your immediate pleas for help, but ultimately and eventually Shugden will lead you to a lama, lineage and pure Buddha Dharma. It doesn't matter what lineage you find, but Shugden will lead you there. Shugden should no longer be considered a protector of just Je Rinpoche's lineage, but a world peace protector as Gangchen Rinpoche mentions many times.
So for those in difficult situations or trades that might be 'shady', all the more we should introduce Shugden to them from compassion. When people are in dire straits, addicted to intoxicants, engaged in vice, or simply desperate, they don't have the right frame of mind to listen to Lam Rim and all the beautiful teachings yet. If there's a man in a burning house, ask Shugden for help to rescue him first then introduce Lam Rim and et al when he is safe & comfortable later. Eventually Shugden will lead them to Buddha Dharma whether now or a future time. That is Shugden's vow and why he arose as a Dharma protector due to the kindness of Desi Sangye Gyatso.
TK
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It is definitely ok to introduce Shugden to everyone immediately. Shugden's whole body is representative of the paths and stages to full enlightenment. Every part of Shugden is a facet of enlightenment. Therefore viewing, thinking, meditating or contemplating even for a short time will plant the seeds of awakening within the viewer's mindstream.
When anyone worships Shugden, he may grant your immediate pleas for help, but ultimately and eventually Shugden will lead you to a lama, lineage and pure Buddha Dharma. It doesn't matter what lineage you find, but Shugden will lead you there. Shugden should no longer be considered a protector of just Je Rinpoche's lineage, but a world peace protector as Gangchen Rinpoche mentions many times.
So for those in difficult situations or trades that might be 'shady', all the more we should introduce Shugden to them from compassion. When people are in dire straits, addicted to intoxicants, engaged in vice, or simply desperate, they don't have the right frame of mind to listen to Lam Rim and all the beautiful teachings yet. If there's a man in a burning house, ask Shugden for help to rescue him first then introduce Lam Rim and et al when he is safe & comfortable later. Eventually Shugden will lead them to Buddha Dharma whether now or a future time. That is Shugden's vow and why he arose as a Dharma protector due to the kindness of Desi Sangye Gyatso.
TK
Hi TK,
excellent post as usual. I like how you highlighted that Dorje Shugden leads anyone at all to their right lineage and not just to Gelug. We should highlight this point in brochures and when talking and explaining to people especially of other traditions. Dorje Shugden does not need people to specifically pray to him, they just have to be sincere when asking for his help. Unlike other Dharma protectors who will only be able to assist the person only if the person has hold vows or have a connection with a Guru. Dorje Shugden can assist someone with broken samaya to repair it with the Guru. That is how powerful he is.
Perhaps, it is time that we tell friends of other lineages that Dorje Shugden will help them to be in their own lineage and that he was never what people say he is?
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"It is definitely ok to introduce Shugden to everyone immediately. Shugden's whole body is representative of the paths and stages to full enlightenment. Every part of Shugden is a facet of enlightenment. Therefore viewing, thinking, meditating or contemplating even for a short time will plant the seeds of awakening within the viewer's mindstream.
When anyone worships Shugden, he may grant your immediate pleas for help, but ultimately and eventually Shugden will lead you to a lama, lineage and pure Buddha Dharma. It doesn't matter what lineage you find, but Shugden will lead you there. Shugden should no longer be considered a protector of just Je Rinpoche's lineage, but a world peace protector as Gangchen Rinpoche mentions many times.
So for those in difficult situations or trades that might be 'shady', all the more we should introduce Shugden to them from compassion. When people are in dire straits, addicted to intoxicants, engaged in vice, or simply desperate, they don't have the right frame of mind to listen to Lam Rim and all the beautiful teachings yet. If there's a man in a burning house, ask Shugden for help to rescue him first then introduce Lam Rim and et al when he is safe & comfortable later. Eventually Shugden will lead them to Buddha Dharma whether now or a future time. That is Shugden's vow and why he arose as a Dharma protector due to the kindness of Desi Sangye Gyatso." Quoted from TK.
I would even introduce the worship of DS to stranger as I have faith that in any circumstances DS will be able to assist everyone.
It is not for us to judge if any eventual devotee is the right or wrong at the initial stage but our faith that DS will benefit all.
DS does not judge and accepts all who propitiates Him and bless them with opening of Dharma seeds that is imprinted in our subtle minds.