dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: WisdomBeing on January 06, 2012, 02:54:25 PM
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Thank you HH Dalai Lama - for saying that it's up to us whether we practise or not.
From the article below, i'd just like to draw attention to a few points of interest.
1. Again the Dalai Lama urges people not to follow Dorje Shugden "After thorough study and research" but again, there is no elaboration of WHAT this thorough study and research is.
2. It's up to you - so we can practise if we want to? So it's not that harmful??
3. The decade-old allegations that Dorje Shugden practitioners murdered someone. Firstly - this was not proven. Secondly, if a Christian or Muslim murders somebody - does that mean ALL Christians and ALL Muslims are bad?
4. With regard to the Charter of the Monastic Discipline of the Gelugpa Sect, which “categorically forfeits the enrollment of monks who continue to propitiate Shugden in all Gelugpa monasteries”. This directive, however, did not involve those “who wish to join schools in the exile community”. - aren't all Shugden monks ostracised in the exile community? Now they can join schools?
5. Thank you again, dear HH Dalai Lama for bringing Dorje Shugden into the limelight. The world does need constant reminders about this issue so that people will do their own research and find out more about Dorje Shugden. Please keep it up!
It’s my responsibility to urge not to follow Shugden deity: The Dalai Lama
http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?article=It (http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?article=It)’s+my+responsibility+to+urge+not+to+follow+Shugden+deity%3A+The+Dalai+Lama&id=30654
Phayul[Friday, January 06, 2012 15:09]
By Tendar Tsering
BODH GAYA, January 6: During the course of his ongoing ten-day Kalachakra teachings, the Tibetan spiritual leader His Holiness the Dalai Lama firmly urged his devotees on Thursday not to follow the Shugden deity.
“After thorough study and research, I realised that it is harmful to follow the Shugden deity, so I stopped worshipping,” said the Dalai Lama to the gathering of around 200,000 disciples from 63 countries in Bodh Gaya.
“So, after knowing and understanding the harmful impacts of worshipping the deity, it is my responsibility to urge my devotees not to follow it”.
“But it is up to you whether you still want to continue following it or not. My responsibility is to show you the proper way,” 76-year old Tibetan leader said while cautioning Shugden followers not to attend his teachings as it went against the Buddhist concept of the pure relationship between the teacher and the disciple.
The Shugden issue took a gruesome turn more than a decade back when followers of the deity murdered a Tibetan monk teacher and his disciples in Dharamshala, north India for toeing the line of the Dalai Lama.
Local Indian investigating police had concluded that the accused of the murder succeeded in escaping to China occupied Tibet.
There have been concrete evidences of Chinese government exploiting the situation to create disturbances and un-stability in the Tibetan community since the debate on Shugden surfaced.
The Dharamshala based Central Tibetan Administration (CTA) in a release issued on October 3, 2007 exclusively on its position on the Shugden followers from Tibet had directed the Tibetan Reception Centre not to issue referral letters to those Tibetans coming from Tibet who continue to propitiate Shugden to the monasteries.
According to the release, the Charter of the Monastic Discipline of the Gelugpa Sect, adopted in 2006, “categorically forfeits the enrollment of monks who continue to propitiate Shugden in all Gelugpa monasteries”. This directive, however, did not involve those “who wish to join schools in the exile community”.
“In order to undermine the peace and harmony within the Tibetan people, China provides political and financial support to Shugden worshippers in Tibet, India and Nepal in particular, and in general, across the globe” said the CTA in the press statement.
While speaking to an exclusive audience of over 8000 Tibetans from Tibet, a few days back in Bodh Gaya, the Dalai Lama had clarified his stand on the Shugden deity.
“I heard some Tibetans in Tibet think that I am still following the Shugden and I have further heard some even say that I have not urged an end to Shugden worship,” the Dalai Lama said. “So today, I have made it very clear.”
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well, the only thing than being talked about is NOT being talked about! so like Kate, I thank the Dalai Lama for keeping the issue current and still talked about!
thank you for sharing this information and news article. Very interesting to see what is continued to be said by the Dalai Lama....
However, I don't think it's just me who's noticed that his tone and approach has changed over the years. It went from a categorical, emphatic NO YOU CANNOT PRACTICE to saying "But it is up to you whether you still want to continue following it or not." (although yes, it is not clear what this "proper way" is and what these "harmful effects" really are).
The saddest and most tragic thing however, is that while on the one hand the Dalai Lama says it is up to people to choose whether to practice or not, those who choose to continue practicing face terrible consequences. For some people, it is not a choice. They have to give it up whether they want to or not, or they face complete exile from their communities. As we've seen in that video, some of the monks are already so old - where will they go if they are expelled from their monasteries for choosing to maintain their practice?
So, it's not really a choice then, is it? Just a politically-correct statement?
The Dalai Lama has also on other occasions also stated clearly that we should do our study and research before deciding. So this gives a little bit of hope - is he leaving the door slightly open? A little bit of leeway that's starting to creep its way it? What do you all think?
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The Dalai Lama is not giving the DS practitioners a choice, just like what he told Trijang Rinpoche years ago the he can practice but his life will be difficult. So, his message to the monks is that if they practice, life will be difficult for them too.
The Dalai Lama has never given a clear and strong reason on why DS should not be worshiped. It has always been very vague. Maybe this is his way of creating more waves in the ocean when there is already a storm happening.
It may be because of Tibet's independence, where he can't fulfill his promise of a free Tibet and therefore he needs this controversy to divert the world attention in the Independence of Tibet. I do agree with beggar that the Dalai Lama's tone on this issue has changed slightly softer. Maybe this is some leeway he is giving for DS practitioners that will have the merging of schools easier in the future when the ban is lifted.
Just my train of thoughts.
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“In order to undermine the peace and harmony within the Tibetan people, China provides political and financial support to Shugden worshippers in Tibet, India and Nepal in particular, and in general, across the globe” said the CTA in the press statement. "
We can see that with the DS controversy, with HHDL voicing out 'against' DS, China on the other hand is helping to grow the practice of DS. The positive side of this controversy is actually the spread of DS practice in a country with billions of population.
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Thank you Wisdom Being for sharing.
It is encouraging to experience the Dalai Lama soften his stance against Dorje Shugden. I believe that, in strategy, it is a combination of doing the right thing at the right time with the right people. Perhaps, after a certain period of time, HH sees that it is unlikely that Tibet will be able to be free of China…perhaps HH even sees that there is long-term benefit for China to remain in Tibet when HH looked at the entire picture. Example:
1) China is rising rapidly as a world power and has strong influence economically, and then its political influence began to grow. Now, China’s social authority is also rising as companies all over the world start to adopt themselves to meet Chinese consumers’ habits and style. With the “Tibet issue” and China’s growing importance in the international arena that require China to look good with international political, economical and social standards, conscious effort will be made to prove China’s fair treatment of Tibet by supporting Tibetan culture, which certainly includes Tibetan Buddhism.
2) The Tibetan Government does not have the adequate resources to take over the country anymore, after being in exile for so long. In such a situation, HH would have to “get help” from some other country (if HH manages to liberate Tibet) and become susceptible to that country. So, instead of going from the pan into the fire, HH leaves the situation “in the pan” for the time being. As time progress, it becomes evident that Tibet has progressed under the authority of China with improved infrastructure, education system AND the Chinese support towards Dorje Shugden practice. Therefore, in seeing this benefit, HH is taking a softer stance recently. Perhaps HH is slowly but surely preparing the people to start embracing Dorje Shugden again. It will not be a big surprise is HH says that IT IS OK TO PRACTICE DS in the near future. Impermanence!
Additionally, it is unreasonable for the CTA to completely make the Chinese look like bad guys. The opportunity of this controversy is created by the CTA by “marketing” the ban of Dorje Shugden. So, instead of constantly blaming Dorje Shugden, practicing monks who are labeled as Chinese spies and the Chinese authority, the CTA should quiet down about this ban or do something more effective end this unnecessary suffering. If they are not doing this, there must be another (some would say a big-picture) reason for all this drama.
With the opening of monasteries that embrace Dorje Shugden, the sangha community who chooses to practice Dorje Shugden has a place to go, unlike in the past. So, in giving the option to practice (it is up to you) now is a good time because HH knows that there is a conducive environment in which the monks can take refuge in.
Thus, as we always state in this forum, this intricate web of connections are created and monitored by enlightened beings that see beyond what is visible to the eyes. May all the turn of events only bring benefit to all beings and may we, common people, focus our actions on virtuous acts that will contribute merits for the practice of Dorje Shugden to return to mainstream practice.
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The saddest and most tragic thing however, is that while on the one hand the Dalai Lama says it is up to people to choose whether to practice or not, those who choose to continue practicing face terrible consequences.
For some people, it is not a choice.
They have to give it up whether they want to or not, or they face complete exile from their communities.
As we've seen in that video, some of the monks are already so old - where will they go if they are expelled from their monasteries for choosing to maintain their practice?
Thank you Beggar for your post, and Thank you Kate.
I wonder actually if the difficulties endured by many because of the ban is not a way of purification that will allow the prractitioners to practice more swiftly and with lesser obstacles in the near future?
I'd rather have to face difficulties arising from an instruction from His Holiness the Dalai Lama, rather than from orders by the CTA...
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You dont have to follow my advise...But if you dont my followers will threaten you, your family, Ostracise you from the community, put up posters with you on, Burn down you property, subject you to physcial and emotional violence, Make accusations of you being chinese spys and anti tibetan.
As I said you are perfectly free to make a choice. :)
are these the actions of a Bodhisattva ? :-\
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You dont have to follow my advise...But if you dont my followers will threaten you, your family, Ostracise you from the community, put up posters with you on, Burn down you property, subject you to physcial and emotional violence, Make accusations of you being chinese spys and anti tibetan.
As I said you are perfectly free to make a choice. :)
are these the actions of a Bodhisattva ? :-\
Well Zach, I for one am in no way, shape or form able to question the actions of a Bodhisattva? I am still of the conviction HHDL is "acting" out of pure motivation to benefit others... an action though at times difficult to comprehend as I too see, like most of us, the suffering there is for those practising openingly and secretly even. How this rift has caused so much pain, anguish, frustration and anger even to the point where we question our very believe and faith in a Buddha (e.g. HHDL).
Perhaps we should see the other side of the coin whereby HHDL is using this ban to "promote" the King in ways we cannot even begin to comprehend or see the light of if not for the ban.
The sad thing is the CTA is using this "method" to enforce its own so called political and secular endeavours.... that is what infuriates me. To use HHDL in a manner whereby it belittles the very being he is... Karma is a bitch CTA, wait till it comes back and nips you in the butt!
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You dont have to follow my advise...But if you dont my followers will threaten you, your family, Ostracise you from the community, put up posters with you on, Burn down you property, subject you to physcial and emotional violence, Make accusations of you being chinese spys and anti tibetan.
As I said you are perfectly free to make a choice. :)
are these the actions of a Bodhisattva ? :-\
Well Zach, I for one am in no way, shape or form able to question the actions of a Bodhisattva? I am still of the conviction HHDL is "acting" out of pure motivation to benefit others... an action though at times difficult to comprehend as I too see, like most of us, the suffering there is for those practising openingly and secretly even. How this rift has caused so much pain, anguish, frustration and anger even to the point where we question our very believe and faith in a Buddha (e.g. HHDL).
Perhaps we should see the other side of the coin whereby HHDL is using this ban to "promote" the King in ways we cannot even begin to comprehend or see the light of if not for the ban.
The sad thing is the CTA is using this "method" to enforce its own so called political and secular endeavours.... that is what infuriates me. To use HHDL in a manner whereby it belittles the very being he is... Karma is a bitch CTA, wait till it comes back and nips you in the butt!
Question what does it say of the qualities of Bodhisattvas within the scriptures ? The Answer of wether HHDL is an ordinary being or a Bodhisattva will be seen by his actions toward others.
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Question what does it say of the qualities of Bodhisattvas within the scriptures?
The Answer of wether HHDL is an ordinary being or a Bodhisattva will be seen by his actions toward others.
I do agree with you on that, though we should look at the result of these actions, short, medium and long term also, and differentiate between HH's actions and the actions of some of HH's followers that misrepresent HH's teachings all together.
Note that history is giving us hints as this is not the first time that HH's actions have been misunderstood by his contemporaries.
There are even historical examples of his contemporaries loosing faith in HH and creating obstacles for the actions of HH to bear fruits in the long term.
A famous example of this is during the time of the 6th Dalai Lama, when HH's vision to transform Tibet into a kingdom was sabotaged by some of HH's followers themselves.
Who knows what would be of Tibet today if it had become a kingdom? We can only imagine (see Bhutan and Nepal...).
Having said this, there are truly shocking events going on these days in the Tibetan communities in India and Nepal, events that do not match with the ideas of freedom, or very basic humanitarian values.
The situation reminds me of the apartheid in South Africa!
This video of the monks in Ganden made to swear that they do not practice Dorje Shugden is very shocking: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=10777, (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=10777,) and the representative of the CTA lecturing the monks is simply in-comprehensible and saddening.
What is going on???
We must make the truth known louder about who Dorje Shugden is, I think that is the way to go!
We must make the CTA realize what is going on and be SMART!
It is the wish of the Dalai Lama to separate politic and religion, thus, the CTA could very well declare that the ban is not within its jurisdiction and focus on politics instead.
If the CTA cannot manage Guru devotion with HHDL and internal politics (caring for ALL Tibetans equally), how could they possibly manage negotiations with the Chinese government...
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“After thorough study and research, I realised that it is harmful to follow the Shugden deity, so I stopped worshipping,”
This statement is completely flawed coming from the Dalai Lama's own mouth, that means the Dalai Lama has no power? no clairvoyance? He will not know a deity is good or bad? He has to "study and research"?
Then why ask high lama for exorcism? If even the Dalai Lama doesn't have the power to decide whether a being is positive or negative, then definitely the other lamas don't have the power also.
So beware, if you ask a high lama for protection against spirit/exorcism, he may make a mistake by inviting the spirit into your house instead because he doesn't have the power to decide whether the being is good or bad, he has to "study and research" first, utterly ridiculous.
The Dalai Lama could not be so foolish to not realize the illogical statement of his, either he is foolish, or he is being skillful for the bigger picture, I choose the latter anytime.
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As many of us have been talking about the "bigger picture" concerning the DS propaganda initiated by HHDL, if you believe in it, it is great. If you do not agree with it, and wants to follow the advice from HHDL, it is also fine. But there is a fine line here, when you follow the instructions from HHDL, does it mean that you have to cause sufferings and extreme pain and anxiety to the DS practitioners who are merely human beings following their Guru's instructions and teachings? HHDL is the enmanation of Chenrizig, a buddha of compassion, how would he wants sufferings to other human beings??? It does not make sense at all.
Why not opt for a more peaceful method that allow freedom of worship, freedom of refuge? Why not spend more time doing more virtuous actions in benefitting others rathar than spending time to isolate or discriminate those who may not share your beliefs. Live and let others live also.
Back to basic buddhist principles, don't we recite the four immeasurables in the beginning of our daily sadhana? Why do we recite these prayers when we are doing the contrary??
"May all sentient beings have happiness and its causes,
May all sentient beings be free if sufferings and its causes,
May all sentient beings never be separated from sorrowless bliss,
May all sentient beings abide in equanimity, free of bias, attaachment and anger."
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Firstly, for the CTA to negotiate with China for a Free Tibet...forget it! To put it bluntly, no way will they ever achieve this. China's government too has her ways of suppression and controls in the country but do people step on them and talk down to them - they dare not.
As for the HHDL continuously speaking of the Ban is very good publicity and promotion in the most skillful manner. He is promoting Dorje Shugden by making him Bad and Evil, because in today's world bad publicity "sells". His constant reminders at all teachings with thousands present is very good for Dorje Shugden especially with people who question and will thus research...and of course end up at this website.
The unfortunate part is that some people do take it literally and not see the underlying subtle purpose of the Ban. Those who take it literally create the sufferings of separation and division.
I do believe that HHDL does leave gap for people to "practice", depending on individual interpretation and motivation, yes no doubt that there will be consequential difficulties but at the same time DS monasteries exist and some even growing. This is the part of reality we must observe and notice. DS is very much alive and so is the DL, ironical but true... It is almost like they keep each other alive like twins... They feed life and fire to and for each other.
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I do believe that HHDL does leave gap for people to "practice", depending on individual interpretation and motivation, yes no doubt that there will be consequential difficulties but at the same time DS monasteries exist and some even growing. This is the part of reality we must observe and notice. DS is very much alive and so is the DL, ironical but true... It is almost like they keep each other alive like twins... They feed life and fire to and for each other.
Well certainly seems true. When Dorje Shugden practitioners speak up, the Dalai Lama speaks up too... or maybe its the other way around?
Anyway His Holiness recently reiterated the ban at a recent teaching in Bodhgaya (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=11479 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=11479)). Im just thinking maybe we ought to push even harder? I know letter-writing, sending postcards, distributing brochures etc can sometimes seem a little... futile but even if the Tibetan government doesnt want dialogue with us, it seems our shouts arent falling on deaf ears. You have to admit - if you stick something in their faces over and over again, they cant close their eyes and ignore us forever. They cant ignore the fact they cant keep us down for long.
Maybe we ought to add to Dorje Shugdens fire. Just sayin.
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Wow, how kind of the Dalai Lama to now slowly allow people a little bit of religious freedom by saying that:
“But it is up to you whether you still want to continue following it or not. My responsibility is to show you the proper way..”. If I remember correctly, it was a strong stance from H.H. The Dalai Lama NOT to practise Shugden for it would shorten his life. So now, if he is allowing people to practise it by saying that it is up to us, does that mean that his life would not be shortened anymore? Anyways, he is a Buddha, I don’t think his life can be shortened based on what people practise. I think the negative karma of mankind can cumulatively shorten a high lama’s life because the causes are not created for the lama to stay and benefit people. But if you practise a diety like Shugden and show compassion, kindness, generosity, respect, integrity, devotion, then I don’t think this can affect the life of HHDL, because these are the qualities that Buddha wants us to develop within ourselves, so how can it be contradictory.
DL also mentioned that his responsibility is to show “you the proper way”. What is the proper way? The Dalai Lama got a huge bulk of his teachings from his junior tutor Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, so I am assuming that HHDL’s “proper way” has been derived from Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche’s teachings. Therefore, being such a strong practitioner of DS, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche would have definitely passed this practise down to HHDL. Why would HHDL do “thorough study and research” now, when all these years, HHDL did not question the authenticity of the practise, its qualities and lineage? Therefore, there must be a bigger reason as to the reason for this ban.
In the article, it is also said that China provides “…financial support to Shugden worshippers in Tibet, India and Nepal in particular, and in general, across the globe”.
Being an upcoming country of power and influence across the globe, China has decided, for whatever reasons they have, to provide financial support to Shugden worshippers. The action of providing support to others is very meritorious in itself, albeit the motivation to do so. Could it be that this ban has come about so that the Chinese would pick it up and spread it far and wide, and by the time the ban on DS has subsided, the Chinese would continue to practise DS because they have received tremendous benefit from this practise. That they will be the ones keeping the Shugden practise alive for many years to come in this degenerate times? If DS is bad, why wouldn’t all the high lamas who continue to practise DS today come forth to take their stance in Shugden’s practise as well? Why do their centres keep on growing?
There is only one reason I can think of as to why this ban has come about.. and that is HHDL’s skillful way of promoting DS into global recognition for DS’s practise is very apt for our degenerate times. DS is Manjushri afterall, and so if the mindstream of any enlightened being is the same, then practicing yamantaka would also lead to negative results as well, for yamantaka is an emanation of manjushri too? hmm.
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I have been following the Shugden ban for a while now. From this I can say that it is obvious that the Dalai Lama has changed his tone regarding the ban. During the early stages the Dalai Lama was much more astute in saying the no one should practice Shugden, if not it would bring great harm to all practitioners, the freedom of Tibet, and even shorten the Dalai Lama's life.
However if we look at the way the Dalai Lama is presenting the issue now, we can see a big change. He is now saying that it is your choice to practice Shugden, thus he is not saying that you should not practice, he is leaving the choice up to you. We can see the change in this video:
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=11294 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=11294)
In comparison with the original video with the Dalai Lama speaking of the ban, we can see the the Dalai Lama was much more direct, and forceful with the Ban, yet now even joke about the growth of Shugden practice in many countries around the world, such as Singapore, Thailand, and China.
What I can see happening is the eventual lessening of the ban, as people choose to practice Shugden anyway. I mean after all isn't this the Dalai Lama's plan. The Dalai Lama is a buddha, and therefore what he does cannot be wrong. Ever since the introduction of the Ban, hasn't Shuden practice grown tremendously. There must be a reason behind the Dalai Lama's doings. Once we see this, we will finally see that the Dalai Lama, is not evil in any way. He has just found the best and most appropriate way to grow Shugden's practice. Especially in the case of China; the Dalai Lama stated that if people practice they will go against the freedom of Tibet, and shorten the Dalai Lama's life. Isn't this what the Chinese people want? Thus they will go and practice Shugden which results in the growth go the practice in China. After all China has the biggest population on Planet Earth today.
The Dalai Lama's plan is working, and eventually people will no longer follow the Ban. However the Dalai Lama will keep it up for as long as possible to grow the practice as much as possible with his means.
We must see the bigger picture, and work towards it creating harmony, not more animosity or commotion.
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“After thorough study and research, I realised that it is harmful to follow the Shugden deity, so I stopped worshipping,”
HHDL is an enlightened being. Does he need to do a thorough study and research? Doesn't he have the power of clairvoyance?
“In order to undermine the peace and harmony within the Tibetan people, China provides political and financial support to Shugden worshippers in Tibet, India and Nepal in particular, and in general, across the globe” said the CTA in the press statement. "
We can see from this DS controversy, with HHDL going out 'against' DS, China being a powerful country with a population of billions is helping the practice of DS to spread by providing them political and financial support.
HHDL cannot be wrong as he is an Enlightened Being. He is using skillful method to spread Dorje Shugden and his plan is working. Now more monasteries and big statues of Dorje Shugden are flourishing everywhere and globally!
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HHDL undermimes the Tibetan cause by scapegoating Shugden practitoners, from a political POV he's done the work that china could never have done and created a great division within his own community.
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The Dalai Lama did not ask for the expulsion of Gyume Kensur Rinpoche. The abbot of Jangtze initiated the expulsion based on the Dalai Lama’s PAST stance which is quite different from a recent audience in year 2011 where HH takes a softer approach to the practice of Dorje Shugden (please refer to the post titled “The Dalai Lama says it’s up to you to practice Shugden or not”). In 2011, HH says that the choice of practicing Dorje Shugden is in the hands of the practitioners. HH even cracked a joke and chuckled about this subject. This is quite different from the harsh position of year 2008 where HH gave clear encouragement to monasteries to expel sangha members who continue to practice Shugden. HH even added that, if necessary, monasteries can use HH’s name to execute such an expulsion.
Looking at this shift in positioning by HH, can it be interpreted that HH is giving us the loop hole to go all out with our Dorje Shugden practice? If all practitioners, which I suspect there are many, just come out of hiding and practice openly, there is minimal that HH would do. This is especially so with the falling of His government’s position which has been “downgraded” from a government (Tibetan Government In Exile) to an administration (Central Tibetan Administration).
The Abbot’s act to expel his own Guru should create a lot negative karma within the anti-Shugden movement caused by broken samaya between guru and student. As mentioned, the foundation for spiritual advancement and growth as well as keeping the pure Dharma intact and complete is by maintaining clean samaya with our root Guru. If the foundation of this movement is weakened by broken samaya, it can only be soon that the movement will collapse. So, perhaps the Dalai Lama permitted this expulsion as it contributes to the eventual end of this ban ?
Additionally, the expulsion of high ranking sangha members will free them to start and build up a “new” lineage of Dorje Shugden practitioner. The timing is also perfect because, now, the expelled monks have a place to go with more and more DS monasteries gaining recognition and strength inside and outside India such as Shar Ganden and Serpom.
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The Dalai Lama did not ask for the expulsion of Gyume Kensur Rinpoche. The abbot of Jangtze initiated the expulsion based on the Dalai Lama’s PAST stance which is quite different from a recent audience in year 2011 where HH takes a softer approach to the practice of Dorje Shugden (please refer to the post titled “The Dalai Lama says it’s up to you to practice Shugden or not”). In 2011, HH says that the choice of practicing Dorje Shugden is in the hands of the practitioners. HH even cracked a joke and chuckled about this subject. This is quite different from the harsh position of year 2008 where HH gave clear encouragement to monasteries to expel sangha members who continue to practice Shugden. HH even added that, if necessary, monasteries can use HH’s name to execute such an expulsion.
Looking at this shift in positioning by HH, can it be interpreted that HH is giving us the loop hole to go all out with our Dorje Shugden practice? If all practitioners, which I suspect there are many, just come out of hiding and practice openly, there is minimal that HH would do. This is especially so with the falling of His government’s position which has been “downgraded” from a government (Tibetan Government In Exile) to an administration (Central Tibetan Administration).
The Abbot’s act to expel his own Guru should create a lot negative karma within the anti-Shugden movement caused by broken samaya between guru and student. As mentioned, the foundation for spiritual advancement and growth as well as keeping the pure Dharma intact and complete is by maintaining clean samaya with our root Guru. If the foundation of this movement is weakened by broken samaya, it can only be soon that the movement will collapse. So, perhaps the Dalai Lama permitted this expulsion as it contributes to the eventual end of this ban ?
Additionally, the expulsion of high ranking sangha members will free them to start and build up a “new” lineage of Dorje Shugden practitioner. The timing is also perfect because, now, the expelled monks have a place to go with more and more DS monasteries gaining recognition and strength inside and outside India such as Shar Ganden and Serpom.
The softening of HHDL's stance spells nothing more than the forthcoming of the unbanning of Dorje Shugden.
From your view, I can deduce that another reason for this ban is so that HHDL can clear off insincere practitioners who prefer to go political as opposed to sincere Dharma practice in accordance with the teachings. Nothing could be more detrimental to Buddhism than insincere practitioners and scholars who with little learning, claim that they know more about Buddhism than the hundreds of accomplished masters there are and teach their version of the Dharma to others. In other words, a huge benefit from this is that insincere practitioners show their true colors and perform actions that automatically limit their own activities.
The expulsion of these high ranking lamas will create the causes for these more politically inclined practitioners to fail in their own Dharma practice, and when this lamas go to Serpon and Shar Ganden, these monasteries will grow even more with their presence which demonstrates directly the legitimacy of Dorje Shugden's power and practice.
I wonder tho why HHDL has not spoken up on the expulsion move. Perhaps he feels that there is no hope for practitioners who will dispose of their own teachers for political reasons, and that it is a waste of time to talk about those cases.
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The softening of HHDL's stance spells nothing more than the forthcoming of the unbanning of Dorje Shugden.
There's no softening of the Dalai Lama's stance on Dorje Shugden. He brings it up at every public teaching and tells people not to practise it.
Points for optimism, but I can't see any basis for holding such a view. If simply not demanding the expulsion of monks is a softening of view (they expelled them all so there's no more need for demand), fair enough, but that doesn't herald a lifting of the ban.
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The latest talk by HHDL at Bodghaya he spoke about a burgeoning of Dorje Shugden practiitoners in China, Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan that the Chinese ethnicity is really embracing Dorje Shugden in droves. And that when Dalai Lama spoke about it it was in a light hearted manner as compared to the wrathful manner he showed in the previous gatherings and talks. It is a matter that threatens his life why should he be so EASY about it?
Also I just heard in Tibet the Chinese government are supporting monasteries with DS practitioners whereby the monks work very hard and they cause no trouble and they benefit the people / community they are serving. What government wont support hard working beneficial people and efforts?
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The softening of HHDL's stance spells nothing more than the forthcoming of the unbanning of Dorje Shugden.
There's no softening of the Dalai Lama's stance on Dorje Shugden. He brings it up at every public teaching and tells people not to practise it.
Points for optimism, but I can't see any basis for holding such a view. If simply not demanding the expulsion of monks is a softening of view (they expelled them all so there's no more need for demand), fair enough, but that doesn't herald a lifting of the ban.
Dear Lineageholder,
Dalai Lama always talk about the DS issue/ban in every public appearances or teachings, which to me has become a norm already. However if you observed carefully, he has changed his way in delivering this issue, for instance, saying it is up to you to practise Dorje Shugden or not in the recent teaching in Jan in Bodhgaya. This to me, is DEFINITELY a softening on his stance on this ban.
It is like your mother telling you, you MUST NOT take sweet or else your teeth will decade and you will lose all your teeth to a softer tone by saying it is up to you to eat sweet or not, eating sweet is not good but the choice is yours..
Would you not try to take some sweets now if you mother says it is up to you? At least you wont feel you would be scolded heavily when she said you must not like before.
Not demanding the expulsion of the monks is ALSO a softening of the view of the DS ban by DL, who cares whether there are any more monks to expell for the time being, but the fact that when DL said this, who knows some secret DS practising monks may surface in the future and they wont have to feel the threat to be expelled. So isn't this a softening of the view of the DS ban by DL?
I am optimistic that the ban will be lifted following this trend, we must work towards this so that the sufferings of those DS monks and nuns would not go in vain. We must work even harder now in all shapes and forms to clarify that DS is not evil, DS will not shorten the life of DL (infact DS is the protector who gave prophecy of the exact route DL needed to take to escape safely from Tibet to India when China invaded Tibet), and DS is not the cause of Tibet not gaining its soverengity from China.
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The softening of HHDL's stance spells nothing more than the forthcoming of the unbanning of Dorje Shugden.
There's no softening of the Dalai Lama's stance on Dorje Shugden. He brings it up at every public teaching and tells people not to practise it.
Points for optimism, but I can't see any basis for holding such a view. If simply not demanding the expulsion of monks is a softening of view (they expelled them all so there's no more need for demand), fair enough, but that doesn't herald a lifting of the ban.
Yeah but he changed the way that he delivered it. It was not as hardline as before.
Maybe he will say that it is no longer necessary to segregate monks who practice and monks who dont. Because it seems that he has realized that there is still a lot more people out there practicing DS and there is nothing much he can do about it...so with that in mind probably he will relax the ban more. His reaction when talking about the ban to me is indicative of him relaxing the ban's rules even though he has not made any official statements yet at the moment. Perhaps it is soon that he will make a statement or two about it?
After all, HHDL did not say "make life difficult for those practicing DS. Isolate them and deride them!" He just said to the public to not go for him for refuge. However him insisting the separation of those who practice DS and those who did not is a very sad thing indeed, although I believe he is doing this for a bigger purpose....splitting the sangha is a very heavy misdeed indeed when done by an ordinary person but when it is done by a Bodhisattva, we must have faith that it is for a bigger reason or else it contradicts with our faith and trust that Bodhisattvas will never harm.
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The Great Exception does it for me everytime.
If the Dalai Lama does not respect his own Guru Trijang Dorje Chang, why let him carry on the Dorje Shugden practise?
Dalai Lama says Trijang Rinpoche can practise Dorje Shugden (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWi1fJkTA9Q#)
The Dalai Lama escaped Tibet carrying items of Dorje Shugden and it was under Dorje Shudgen's advise tat he escaped to safety and now spread Dalai Lama is a celebrity monk all over the world. I mean no amount of brainwashing that can make u forget about that!
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“After thorough study and research, I realised that it is harmful to follow the Shugden deity, so I stopped worshipping,”
His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama (HHDL) hadn’t provided the findings of his study and research to justify why it is harmful to practise Dorje Shugden (DS). Why didn’t HHDL provide with facts and findings to prove beyond any doubt that DS is harmful? DS practitioners are not convinced DS is a spirit. If DS is a spirit, all the Gelug Lineage Masters would not have propitiated DS. How could they be wrong?
“So, after knowing and understanding the harmful impacts of worshipping the deity, it is my responsibility to urge my devotees not to follow it”.
HHDL urged. HHDL didn’t say others should stop the practice. If DS is harmful, why didn’t HHDL ‘destroy’ the spirit so that the spirit can no longer be harmful to others or himself?
“But it is up to you whether you still want to continue following it or not. My responsibility is to show you the proper way,”
HHDL seemed to give DS practitioners a choice. Why imposed a ban on DS then? A choice restricted by a ban is not a choice at all.
“In order to undermine the peace and harmony within the Tibetan people, China provides political and financial support to Shugden worshippers in Tibet, India and Nepal in particular, and in general, across the globe”
The truth is that the ban on DS had caused disharmony amongst the Tibetan people.
“I heard some Tibetans in Tibet think that I am still following the Shugden and I have further heard some even say that I have not urged an end to Shugden worship,” the Dalai Lama said. “So today, I have made it very clear.”
Outwardly HHDL can be 100% against DS, but how do we know (with no disrespect to HHDL) HHDL is not practising DS inwardly or secretly?
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At this point, I am doubting if the ban was initiated by HHDL himself or by his assistants, or by the CTA for whatever political agendas they may have. Because in so many of HHDL's talks about Dorje Shugden, he never did once mention about shutting off people who do his practice or make things difficult for them. He just said do not come to my teachings and that he has no connection with them.
CTA has a history of covering things up, altering history, banning tulkus, and even acting against the will of the Dalai Lama. For example, Sangye Gyatso initiated a civil war against the will of the 5th Dalai Lama and then placed the 5th Dalai Lama as the head of the government. If you read Glenn Mullin's biography, it states very clearly that the 5th Dalai Lama was against the civil war but Sangye Gyatso initiated it anyway.
Aside from this, from the same biography, Glenn Mullin has also explicitly stated that the series of Dalai Lamas that died young were most likely to have been murdered, but the historians used eloquent cover ups that the Dalai Lamas decided to leave the Tibetans early and the Tibetans lack the merits to keep the Dalai Lama. Again, this shows the extent of the cover up that is so pervasive in Tibetan history.
So, CTA's bad track record has started since its inception from the beginning. It isn't surprising at all if at the end of the day, the ban was nothing more than the machinations of some jealous government official and that he has been distorting the words of HHDL to make it seem more serious than it should.
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I actually find this very hypocritical because obviously we do not have the freedom of religious, people who practise Dorje Shugden are discriminated everywhere, it's pretty obvious that we do not have a choice to make. But as time goes by, His Holiness seems to be a bit more tolerant when it comes to Dorje Shugden issues, I guess this is a good sign?