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General Buddhism => General Buddhism => Topic started by: KhedrubGyatso on January 02, 2012, 04:29:33 PM

Title: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: KhedrubGyatso on January 02, 2012, 04:29:33 PM
Faith is not the exclusive domain of religions other than Buddhism.
Vajrayana approach is to use the most efficacious methods for an individual or group to bring about results even if it means encouraging blind faith.

Is what we called blind faith useful?

We tend to associate blind faith with other religions. The practice of Guru Devotion to a certain extent depends on some level of blind faith. This seems to be a departure from popular and  traditional Buddhist norms which emphasize on valid reasoning  and logic.

Title: Re: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: hope rainbow on January 02, 2012, 05:56:32 PM
KG, you pose a very interesting question which challenges a posit of our modern society: that blind faith could not be constructive.
With the background of a scientific and pragmatic modern culture, faith is tolerated and blind faith has the aspect of a medieval thing that we finally got "rid of."

But doesn't any faith have have a level of "blindness" required for the so called "leap of faith?"
What is the difference between the two?
What differentiates faith and blind faith?

I'll share my thoughts on this here for sake of debate.

Faith is a mind that does not doubt the object of faith even when exposed to perceptions that seem to contradict the reasoning or justificative background to the faith.

Then what is blind faith?
Title: Re: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: KhedrubGyatso on January 03, 2012, 03:29:21 AM
We can classify three kinds of faith .

1. Believing faith
This is the kind we experience  as a kid who just believes in what his mother tells him without doing any kind of checking or investigation through this special relationship. It can also be  the kind of simple faith whereby we believe in something because most  of our friends are doing the same.We actually rely on this kind of faith the most in our daily lives whether it is shopping for something, learning  or seeking treatment.

 2.Admiring faith
This is a deeper kind of faith whereby we begin to develop  an interest in the object of our faith and   more aware of the qualities of the object which is  inspiring us. This faith arises through the process of  one's  verification  by observing, investigating  and contemplating   the object's qualities.
 
3.Wishing faith.
After investigation ,we develop the wish and determination to have those qualities in view of its benefits  to us and whatever other values we relate to. At this level, our faith is very strong and most doubts have been overcome , paving the way to enter into serious practice.
Through continued practice, we further  stabilise and enhance our faith  until it is unshakeable.

From the above, we can see that even at the first level of faith , it is not blind faith. The kid has basis for believing and trusting the mother without question due to the mother's love and care for him  which he can observe, positively experience and feel. It is the same for the second scenario, here the basis is the trust in numbers and in friends.

Therefore, I believe Buddhist methods, Vajrayana or otherwise will never encourage blind faith as expedient means. I think a common misconception is when the Guru tells us to follow his instructions without question. This injunction is actually not as ' dictatorial' as it seems because the student is supposed to have gone through a period of investigation of the qualities of the Guru , his lineage and his works and also checking his own thoughts and doubts before taking refuge in him. If we challenge a Guru whom we consider to be superior to us, then why have a Guru?
No real Guru will demand blind faith from anyone or give such an instruction if the essential samaya has not been established before hand by both Guru and disciple.
Title: Re: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: Ensapa on January 03, 2012, 03:11:42 PM
blind faith is putting faith into something without prior understanding or research. One just takes things as it is without investigation or logic at all. It is very different from the kind of faith one should have that the Buddha taught, where he explained that true faith comes from  understanding the qualities, benefits and results of something before faith is placed. And I find this very true. I am fortunate enough to have a Lama that explains everything so that my faith is stable, always. It gives me confidence to practice and to explain to others as i know for sure.

Its easy to test blind faith and true faith: one cannot explain when questioned, while the other can.
Title: Re: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: hope rainbow on January 04, 2012, 04:16:33 AM
Thank you KG.

So, we are saying here that Vajrayana does not require blind faith, but a grounded faith (wishing faith), that is established on logic and experience.

This logic (and knowledge) and experience must be stronger than the challenge that the faith is subjected to in order to further one on the path and establish even stronger foundation for this wishing faith.

If the ground for the faith is weak, it is more likely that the Guru will not challenge the student to an extend that should be necessary for the student to progress fast and swift.

This dynamic exposes why it is a fast path to have a Guru, but it also shows that it only work if one has a solid wishing faith. Otherwise the Guru will not be able to push the student.

Blind faith does not have ground, and when it is challenged, there is nothing to hold it and it weakens to a point of extinction.

Right?
Title: Re: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: Ensapa on January 04, 2012, 04:22:40 AM
Thank you KG.

So, we are saying here that Vajrayana does not require blind faith, but a grounded faith (wishing faith), that is established on logic and experience.

This logic (and knowledge) and experience must be stronger than the challenge that the faith is subjected to in order to further one on the path and establish even stronger foundation for this wishing faith.

If the ground for the faith is weak, it is more likely that the Guru will not challenge the student to an extend that should be necessary for the student to progress fast and swift.

This dynamic exposes why it is a fast path to have a Guru, but it also shows that it only work if one has a solid wishing faith. Otherwise the Guru will not be able to push the student.

Blind faith does not have ground, and when it is challenged, there is nothing to hold it and it weakens to a point of extinction.

Right?

exactly my point.

currently I have a friend who has blind faith in my own Guru. He is very sincere but he got very angry and emotional when i asked him why should we respect the Lama as a Buddha? what is the basis? and how should we treat a Buddha anyway? I got scolded by him saying that i have no faith in my Lama. Such is blind faith!!! mine is grounded entirely on my Lama's kindness and ability to help others as well as myself. I cannot help my friend much because he loves my Lama even tho my Lama did not do much to help him, and also because the man he is in love with loves my Lama as well, so he followed. The connection is very obvious and I have not much of an idea on how to wake him up as he gets very upset when challenged to think further in all Dharmic things.

So i just leave him alone, for now.
Title: Re: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: KhedrubGyatso on January 04, 2012, 05:11:43 AM
Dear HR,
Yes you got the point. But I would like to add that most of us tend to  start off at the first level , believing faith and gradually develop it into wishing  faith at which point , one is considered ready to take refuge in a Guru and the 3 jewels  and start one's spiritual journey.
Usually we can observe those who have not cultivated their faith to the 3rd level will not be so committed or serious in their practice. Hence we have of those who are casual or social Buddhists, who only pray at their altar and generating some good thoughts and doing their bit for Buddhist centres on and off. Moving ahead , there are those who are more serious to want some regular practice and become connected with a Dharma centre.  True practitioners who have taken authentic refuge are rare.

It is said that faith precedes every action . It does not arise spontaneously but has to be cultivated through experience, observation, contemplation and meditation.
Ensapa's  explanation of blind faith is good. If we contemplate deeper, I am not even sure if such type of faith is possible . At the most basic level of believing faith , a child's faith in his mother still depends on some experiencial basis. That is why  a child will react negatively by crying   if a stranger tries to hug him etc. The situation whereby a child goes along with a stranger is due to trickery employed  by the adult capitalising on the child's still low intelligence, and lack of experience . It is not the case of the child following the stranger  blindly.
Title: Re: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: Big Uncle on January 04, 2012, 05:40:55 AM
blind faith is putting faith into something without prior understanding or research. One just takes things as it is without investigation or logic at all. It is very different from the kind of faith one should have that the Buddha taught, where he explained that true faith comes from  understanding the qualities, benefits and results of something before faith is placed. And I find this very true. I am fortunate enough to have a Lama that explains everything so that my faith is stable, always. It gives me confidence to practice and to explain to others as i know for sure.

Its easy to test blind faith and true faith: one cannot explain when questioned, while the other can.

I think in the Gelug tradition, blind faith is discouraged because doubts is easy to take root for those who have blind faith. That's because those who have blind faith do not enough to have their faith grounded in logic, reasoning and understanding. Hence, they are easily swayed by doubts, fears and so forth. They can easily lose faith in their practice and Guru because of a little rumors they had heard. Hence, I believe that those who have blind faith are unable to develop attainments because of these factors.
Title: Re: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: Ensapa on January 04, 2012, 06:32:27 AM
I think in the Gelug tradition, blind faith is discouraged because doubts is easy to take root for those who have blind faith. That's because those who have blind faith do not enough to have their faith grounded in logic, reasoning and understanding. Hence, they are easily swayed by doubts, fears and so forth. They can easily lose faith in their practice and Guru because of a little rumors they had heard. Hence, I believe that those who have blind faith are unable to develop attainments because of these factors.

It is more like when you have blind faith and something comes along to challenge it, you will have a very hard time trying to prove yourself or hold the faith. Of course you can fight them off and get annoyed etc but that is obviously not a proper solution (like my friend). In his case, his first reaction is to shut down people who try to question him and his beliefs and insult them.

Personally after seeing this, I think blind faith is harmful because it promotes ignorance and since the person in blind faith cannot explain, this will cause more well learned and curious people to turn away from the blind faith followers' beliefs. This also goes directly against the Buddha's teaching to investigate before believing.
Title: Re: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: vajrastorm on January 04, 2012, 08:57:23 AM
I like what KG says about the three types of faith and i agree we should progress from 'believing faith' to 'wishing faith' and, at that point, grow a strong yearning to develop the qualities of the Buddha in us. This will propel us more surely towards the Vajrayana level of practice.   

Nonetheless, I have come across people who show a strong affinity to the Buddha immediately. To me, this is not an evidence of blind faith, but of 'seeds' having been implanted in a previous lifetime.
Title: Re: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: Ensapa on January 05, 2012, 03:31:03 AM
I like what KG says about the three types of faith and i agree we should progress from 'believing faith' to 'wishing faith' and, at that point, grow a strong yearning to develop the qualities of the Buddha in us. This will propel us more surely towards the Vajrayana level of practice.   

Nonetheless, I have come across people who show a strong affinity to the Buddha immediately. To me, this is not an evidence of blind faith, but of 'seeds' having been implanted in a previous lifetime.

i have seen people like these too and they strive to understand what is going on rather than just blindly believe in Buddhism. They like studying and investigating it, but does not avoid questions either. Affinity and blind faith are very different. One is done without basis, and the other is simply the inclination towards the Dharma. No connection/correlation there.
Title: Re: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: Midakpa on January 05, 2012, 04:27:36 PM
Blind faith is not encouraged in Buddhism. Buddhism encourages open-mindedness, study and knowledge. One  is required to study and understand the teachings before deciding whether to become a Buddhist or follow a certain guru.

A good example of open-mindedness in Buddhism is the story of Upali who was a follower of another religion but wanted to become the Buddha's disciple. The Buddha asked him, "Why do you want to become my follower?" Upali answered, "People say that your teachings are wonderful." Buddha then asked,"Have you heard any of my teachings?" Upali replied that he had not and the Buddha questioned him, "Then how do you know whether you can practise my teaching or not?" That is not the way for a man to change his religion. One must study and try to understand the teaching before one is convinced."

Then, Upali became even more determined to follow the Buddha and said, "Venerable Sir, I think this advice of yours is more than enough for me to understand the nature of your real teaching. If I had approached another religious leader, he would have announced that so and so has also become a follower of his religion. But instead Sir, you advised me to study and consider whether to accept your teaching or not." (K. Sri Dhammananda, Buddhist Principles for Human Dignity)
Title: Re: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: valeriecheung on January 05, 2012, 05:20:14 PM
Blind faith of course not encourage in buddhism but for some level of mind can be a beginning step to connect. For short terms is fine because not many poeple as clever as midakpa.  ;D
Title: Re: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: negra orquida on January 08, 2012, 11:44:16 PM
Definitely blind faith is not the approach in Buddhism.  We are always encouraged to check out the Dharma centre, teachings, and even the Guru, as what is stated in the 50 Verses of Guru Devotion.  If we have only blind faith and no knowledge/wisdom to substantiate our faith or trust in the Buddhas, then our mind will easily waver when the logic for having faith in something is backed up against the wall.
Title: Re: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: yontenjamyang on January 09, 2012, 05:56:05 AM
I think blind faith is not Buddhistic. In Vajrayana especially, faith is called upon, when logic and reasoning cannot fully explain to us certain practices that we need to do or when we do contemplations/meditations. When we cannot proceed with logic, we need to have faith to propel our logic further ie to test our logic. If the result of the practice or contemplations proves that the assumption or faith made is correct then we add on to the logic. It is quite similar to science, where theories are posited ie faith based on pre proven logic.

Hence, blind faith is not Buddhistic, as in Buddhism, any faith is based on some logic to start with.

So logic brings faith brings more logic brings faith...until we can see ultimate reality!
Title: Re: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: Q on March 03, 2012, 05:14:08 PM
Faith is not the exclusive domain of religions other than Buddhism.
Vajrayana approach is to use the most efficacious methods for an individual or group to bring about results even if it means encouraging blind faith.

Is what we called blind faith useful?

We tend to associate blind faith with other religions. The practice of Guru Devotion to a certain extent depends on some level of blind faith. This seems to be a departure from popular and  traditional Buddhist norms which emphasize on valid reasoning  and logic.

I was thinking about this topic myself, and decided to type in 'faith' in the search bar... this post came up haha...

With question comes curiosity... and with curiosity as usual I did some research and read up on several articles surrounding the application of faith in Buddhism. One of the articles I read gave a very meaningful quote that is probably very familiar to many diligent practitioners... it goes like this:

"Faith without wisdom will develop ignorance,
wisdom without faith will develop a perverted view."

I felt this quote is very important and a teaching by itself... it is one that all serious practitioners need to remind themselves as it is after all very easy to stray from dedication to blind faith.

Having blind faith in the Three Jewels certainly will not take us anywhere, though there may be some benefits, but not enough to take us to our ultimate goal of developing Boddhichitta, Enlightenment. The integration of both wisdom in the teachings and faith is most important in developing our spirituality.

Buddhists develop faith in a very different way compared to many other religions. Through contemplation, investigation and application, we develop the understanding that the Dharma truly is liberation. Because of such understanding, we develop much faith in the Buddhas, that their teaching can help us progress spiritualy... and the teachings that we do not understand, we place faith that just like all the other teachings we understood and found truth in it, so does the ones we don't understand... and carry on with our spiritual journey as we will reach to a point when all that is unclear will be understood.

When we talk about blind faith, i'm guessing that it's about ppl that think in the context of "The Buddha is all mighty and He will liberate me" kind of faith. If that is so, then sorry to say... all those with blind faith in the Buddha is just plain lazy and ignorant. Because if the Buddha can liberate us, we all would be enlightened already... but that's not the case, which means only we can help ourselves to reach enlightenment... something that Buddha cannot give but can teach.
Title: Re: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: jeremyg on March 06, 2012, 05:35:20 AM
For me blind faith does not exist in Buddhism. Everything can be questioned, and everything can be answered through debate. Even the highest masters participate in debate, and can be proven wrong on something. It is not the idea of being proved wrong, but learning due to reason and fact.

Earlier in this post someone mentioned that following a Guru can be considered blind faith, if we just do what he says.
The truth is, we wouldn't follow a Guru solely based on blind faith. Personally if I were to follow a guru, is is because I know that everything he would say or tell me to do, will lead me close to enlightenment. And for those who say that, that is blind faith, there are so many examples and accounts of how proper Guru devotion will help you.

Then again the more we understand, and the more wisdom we have as Q said, the better our practice will be. Maybe there is an extent where true blind faith, will have little or no result.
Title: Re: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: triesa on March 06, 2012, 11:19:37 AM
For me blind faith does not exist in Buddhism. Everything can be questioned, and everything can be answered through debate. Even the highest masters participate in debate, and can be proven wrong on something. It is not the idea of being proved wrong, but learning due to reason and fact.


Jeremyg, you are right, blind faith does not exist in Buddhism. I like what you said, everything in buddhism can be answered through debate. That is exactlyt why everyday the monks will debate in the monastery as part of their study.

So only logic prevails at the end. Everyone buys logic, and is skeptical with blind faith, as nobody wants to follow something purely by closing their eyes like a blind man.

As with Guru devotion, well....we are supposed to check out our guru thoroughly before we take refuge in him. But at these times, a lot of people will jump the steps and take refuge in a guru, perhaps becasue he has some obstacles to overcome and need the guildance of a guru immediately, or becasue the guru is so  charismastic that he just follows him naturally, like Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, his crazy wisdom attracted so many followers who were mainly hippees in the seventies. Many of his students are still great dharma practitioners now.

My point here is that a certain blind faith in the beginning may help in following a guru (well, then we hope your guru is from an authentic lineage too) ....but eventually we should move from believing faith to admiring faith then to wishing faith as Khedrub Gyatso has mentioned.

I like also what Q said :

"Faith without wisdom will develop ignorance,
wisdom without faith will develop a perverted view."


Title: Re: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: Aurore on March 10, 2012, 06:13:30 PM
Buddhism is definitely not blind faith. However, I do think Buddhism do appear to be a practice of blind faith to non-Buddhist.

If non-Buddhist ask me, "How do you know your religion is the "correct" one? That Buddhas exist and not simply blind faith?" "How do you know reincarnation exist? You can't even remember!" My reply would be: "I just know it!" or "My protector has helped me in many ways. So I know there is a higher power than us."

So is this blind faith? yes, it does sound like blind faith. Idol worshipping is also seen as blind faith as Buddhist are seen to worship statues.  ;D

Sadly, I do use blind faith to encourage people who have daily obstacles. I would say that blind faith do appeal to a certain level of mind who is not ready to accept logic and all they want is quick results. It is easier to believe that there is an unseen power who can help you when you are in need. So that may be what is required to encourage an individual to engage in spiritual practice so that later, with more studies and applying logic, it will turn to real faith. The faith that arise from understanding the nature of suffering and the ultimate truth of our existence.
Title: Re: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: Tenzin K on April 20, 2012, 08:53:50 AM
It’s important for one to have full faith to what they believe in. Having strong faith it will not stop one or shake their mind in any doubt or confuse situation. In Buddhism, I personally feel that people build the faith through their experience and understanding. Of course I would refer the understanding of the Lamrim in this case. The positive outcome of the experience and the knowledge knowing why things happen serve a great answer for every doubt people have.

For blind faith it’s common to any situation that they have not experience and no knowledge of why things happen as such but still believe it happen for a reason. I don’t think this is bad at all as long as the spiritual path of the journey is following the Lamrim teaching. Not everyone can understand things immediately but at a very minimal stage they have the “blind faith” to continue their spiritual journey hoping to find the answer later.       

From having blind faith to continue their journey to learn and eventually build up solid faith in Buddhist teaching.
Title: Re: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: pgdharma on April 20, 2012, 03:26:31 PM
Blind faith is not encourage in Buddhism. One needs to have wisdom, compassion and the realization of emptiness to get attained. However, at the very fundamental level  blind faith is the first step to get connected to the dharma. As our spiritual path progressed, then our reasoning, understanding and applying logic will be better. So the believing faith will progressed to wishing faith which is to achieve the qualities of the Buddha.
Title: Re: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: brian on April 20, 2012, 04:15:31 PM
i dont believe in blind faiths, one who is blindly believing in something is not logical. probably out of fear, but for me, Buddhistic does not simply believe in Buddhism because it is blind faith. Maybe in the initial level, as mentioned by pgdharma. But if we analyse it deeper, Buddhism gives us logic and even i myself believe in Buddhism because of its logic. so i conclude by agreeing to the fact blind faith is not Buddhistic. If fact one should not even believe in a religion that does not give you logic and merely you believing it just because of blind faith.
Title: Re: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: bambi on May 26, 2012, 08:43:15 AM
Buddhism is not based on illogical beliefs. It is based on facts and logic, at least to me. Even if it is not about religion, nobody would be dumb enough to believe in something that is illogical, right? This is something I find very relevant to the topic raised :

http://www.buddhanet.net/nutshell03.htm (http://www.buddhanet.net/nutshell03.htm)

To the seekers of truth the Buddha says:

"Do not accept anything on (mere) hearsay -- (i.e., thinking that thus have we heard it for a long time). Do not accept anything by mere tradition -- (i.e., thinking that it has thus been handed down through many generations). Do not accept anything on account of mere rumors -- (i.e., by believing what others say without any investigation). Do not accept anything just because it accords with your scriptures. Do not accept anything by mere suppositions. Do not accept anything by mere inference. Do not accept anything by merely considering the reasons. Do not accept anything merely because it agrees with your pre-conceived notions. Do not accept anything merely because it seems acceptable -- (i.e., thinking that as the speaker seems to be a good person his words should be accepted). Do not accept anything thinking that the ascetic is respected by us (therefore it is right to accept his word).
Title: Re: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: lotus1 on May 31, 2012, 08:42:44 PM
This is a very interesting thought. i agree that Buddhism and does not encourage blind faith. Buddha always asked us to check out what is the truth.
However, i humbly think that for certain people, blind faith might be useful to get them to be connected with Buddhism. We can see that many older generation of Chinese in Mahayana tradition who are illiterate, but they just have blind faith that Buddha will help and protect them and just chant the mantra of Amitabha. They may not know what is Dharma at all but just have faith that Buddha is good for them. All they do is just believe and chant. Some of them may gain a certain level of concentration and also gain good merits to have the chance to learn Dharma. So, in this case, blind faith is good too. :)
i think for beings from the initial scope, someone who has blind faith in Buddha would be better than someone is without faith and do not believe in Dharma. At least the blind faith helps them to create the karmic link to be closer to Buddha Dharma. :)
Title: Re: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: ilikeshugden on June 02, 2012, 07:30:46 AM
To me, blind faith is usually what certain Buddhists have. They do not know who their Buddha is, what emanations, what is reincarnation, nothing at all. However, blind faith can also be in the case of those who separate from Dorje Shugden just because His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama said so. If they decide to stop the practice without any form of contemplation, without knowing your facts, then you have blind faith. In short, to me, blind faith is not buddhistic. In Buddha's teachings, Buddha has always asked as to question our beliefs and not follow blindly.
Title: Re: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: Carpenter on June 02, 2012, 06:31:04 PM
Blind faith is believing blindly without understanding any of the content, when people tell you that is good, you just believe it all the way before doing any research and observe, that is blind faith to me.

In Vajrayana Buddhism, people follow the instruction of a guru, this does not mean blind faith, because before they follow, they have already check out, researched and understand the benefits then only get involve in it. when you are to commit into guru devotion, you know what the guru ask you to do, you accepted it with your thought logically, a guru will not ask you to bang your car and die, whatever he ask of you, it is to make you a better person, so you accepted the instruction, you do it rationally, I don't see any blind faith here.

Title: Re: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: dondrup on June 03, 2012, 12:31:21 PM
Yes, Buddha has taught Buddhists not to take and accept things at their face values.  We need to evaluate the teachings given by Buddha and check for ourselves their validities before accepting and adopting them. However, how far and to what extent do we check on a guru before we can fully accept the guru? We can never check enough.  Do we have the resource, time, and expertise to check a guru?  In actuality most of us would not have enough of these to help us decide.  Very often we rely on an element of ‘blind’ faith on the guru to support our decision to accept a guru. 

Karma had reconnected us with a guru.  It is not by chance.  It is through past prayers and merits that we have come thus far to meet a guru.  Do we want to miss this rare opportunity to reconnect with a guru?  Buddha Vajradhara had said in the scriptures that He will manifest as spiritual guides in this degenerate time. This guru could be Buddha Vajradhara! We can safely accept the guru after having relied on our investigation and this element of blind faith.  Faith does not come immediately but has to be developed. A little blind faith is better than no faith at the outset of our practice of guru devotion.
Title: Re: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: ratanasutra on June 26, 2012, 06:01:36 PM
i don't think buddhism is blind faith. The teaching of Buddhism are base on logic and it about the truth which we can study and prove about it.

In Buddhism we are encourage to study, learn, debate, question, find solution/answer etc

However faith also play a very importance role in Buddhism as from faith we are engage in Buddhism and our practice is grow from faith as well but it not the blind faith.   
Title: Re: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: biggyboy on June 26, 2012, 07:09:34 PM
In many ways after much contemplation and learning, there's no blind faith in Buddhism. In Buddhism, we have to have logical reasoning and understanding and not taking in by the mere fact that people say so, brought down by traditions or cultures, rumours, or base on own preconceived notions, etc... Buddhism is not about the religion or the images of the Buddha.  Is more of putting into action on Buddha's teachings.

The Buddha says.... "He honors me best who practices my teaching best."
                             "He who sees the Dhamma sees me."

Isn't it obvious?  Well I would also agree that during this degeneration time, many would follow blindly for the quick fix to their problem.  Ya.. it is truly non-buddhistic at all.  At least let it be the beginning of their journey for now and over time with much knowledge and understanding, the blind faith would turn around to firm and strong faith.
Title: Re: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: kurava on June 27, 2012, 02:57:12 AM
Buddha encouraged his students to listen to the meaning of his teachings, not him. Contemplate on the meanings, if beneficial then apply them.

Based on this, I would say blind faith is not encouraged by Buddhism. However, after we studied the sutras and decide to go for the higher teachings where we are to gain the non conceptual experiences, we do need to develop faith in our Guru. This faith is not a blind one. Students are encouraged to check out the teacher  as taught in the Lamrim. Once the student regards someone as his Guru and embark on the path, he must be prepared to go all the way. Therefore for the quick path practitioners, Guru devotion( total faith and complete surrendering) is the main practice because the Guru is the embodiment of the three jewels and he functions to help us to find our inner Guru .

Title: Re: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: Ensapa on June 27, 2012, 03:55:21 PM
Blind faith is something that the Buddha has long spoken against. There is no place for blind faith in buddhism as all faith must have a basis for it. the basis from the faith comes from none other than exhaustive and proper investigation on the subject matter, which in this case is the Dharma. And from this investigation and learning, the person who studies it establishes faith based on his or her understanding and conclusion on the teachings. This is taught in all 3 traditions of the Buddha. From the Buddha himself:

Quote
"Make a proper investigation first. Proper investigation is good for a well-known person like yourself."
Now I am even more pleased and satisfied when the Lord says to me:' Make a proper investigation first.' For if members of another religion had secured me as a disciple they would have paraded a banner all around the town saying: 'Upali has joined our religion.' But the Lord said to me:' Make a proper investigation first. Proper investigation is good for a well-known person like yourself.' ~ MI 139"

Quote

4. "It is proper for you, Kalamas, to doubt, to be uncertain;uncertainty has arisen in you about what is doubtful. Come, Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, 'The monk is our teacher.' Kalamas, when you yourselves know: 'These things are bad; these things are blamable; these things are censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill,' abandon them.

10. "Come, Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, 'The monk is our teacher.' Kalamas, when you yourselves know: 'These things are good; these things are not blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,' enter on and abide in them.


The Buddha taught that uncertainties should always be clarified and not covered over or glossed over. Blind faith is when unexplainable flaws are glossed over and when cross examined, the person with blind faith will always falter and fall and will not be able to give answers at the end because they do not base their faith on something solid like knowledge, logic and study for example or their own experience. To have faith is basically to trust that a certain teaching or statement is taken to be true and this feeling is overwhelming, supported with an overbearing sense of confidence and this can be based on either clarifications, knowledge, logic or experience. Like for example, most people have faith in science because science explains everything and leaves no room for uncertainties, and it is the same with the Buddha's teaching when properly examined.

As the Dali Lama has said:
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Dharma, or the teachings, is not a series of instructions to be believed and followed out of blind faith. The practice of Dharma should be carried out on the basis of reason and contemplation. If one accepts a point or practice or doctrine out of blind faith, one is accepting it for the wrong reasons and in the wrong way. Whenever I myself encounter a contradiction between doctrine and reason, I always give priority to reason. Buddha taught many levels and types of doctrines in dependence upon the quality of this audiences, and we must discern for ourselves what was meant literally  and what only figuratively.

Excerpts from The Path to Enlightenment (1982) by the Dalai Lama, a commentary on The Essence of Refined Gold by Sonam Gyatso.

So it is imperative that we base our faith in the Dharma due to reason and logic and through investigation so that we can reap the full benefits from a teacher. Once we have faith in something after checking it out and deciding, we should really go all the way with it instead of doubting further and allow doubts to be clarified in a polite way rather than covering them up and hiding. I hope this post makes some of us contemplate on this.
Title: Re: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: fruven on January 10, 2013, 01:10:45 AM
Faith vs logic? Or blind faith vs logic? Is it mutually exclusive and one can only choose one or the other but not both?

If we have faith we follow through and thus get the results, more compassion, more logically mind, calmness, friendliness, less anger, less jealousy we develop more faith. Isn't it logical?

If we do not have faith and we oppose, resist, or do the opposite and thus get no result we lose faith. Isn't it logical?

If believe in Buddha teachings and what he have taught, eg. karma, merits, requires a lot of merit accumulation which doesn't come from just studying and reading alone, but through practice, contemplation and meditation, the so called 'logic' we have to even begin to think logically unclouded by the effect of karma in the form of doubt, isn't it logical to postulate that we do not think in logical terms? In fact we can only rely on and depends on by the example of the disciples of Buddha as a proof that his teachings works which we can see from ourselves.

If we used the teachings of the Buddha and argue, justify, misinform, our own behaviour, and our so called 'bad' karma isn't we are working from illogical point of view?

If we have study 'enough' and 'all' Buddha teachings, thinking we know everything, isn't it illogical that we are still suffering, get moody because someone called us name, called our parents' name, ancestor's name, not recognize for our own 'effort', not getting praise, being blamed, being judged and we feel it is unfair why everyone doing this to me?

Isn't it logical that you have done the opposite of what Buddha have taught and your guru advise, and didn't get what you want, you feel these 'bad' results, of course it is. Thus it demotivate you even further to 'prove' to you yourself that Buddha's teachings doesn't work because you study and understand Buddha's teachings and your life still sucks and you're in deep shit. Doesn't it sound logical that something is missing it here? Study and understanding doesn't negate and nullify the karma, our own self-doubt, and whatever neurosis we have, maybe a little bit.

Just like studying and understanding the working of gravity doesn't make you anti-gravity when you're dropping from 10,000 feet from the sky when your parachute is broken. If you feel fear while falling, knowing your are minutes or seconds away from death and thinking of how to survive, good! If you study and understand Buddha teachings but still have no fear of your death, then it is definitely something wrong! We are minutes and seconds away from death from karma and still we have no fear?! That speaks how much 'logical' we are even after we have learn so much Buddhistic teachings.
 
Title: Re: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: tsangpakarpo on January 16, 2013, 02:13:08 PM
I don't think blind faith is a bad idea. Wouldn't blind faith be better than no faith especially in Buddhism? In Buddhism, even if we do not have an idea what is going but if we have blind faith hence we continue practicing, we still gain good karma wouldnt we?

Faith can after all be developed over time. As time goes by with our practice, the more we see, the more we learn, the more we understand. With that, our blind faith will transform to be a even stronger faith through the understanding of our practice.

Then with understanding and learning of Dharma knowledge, we develop more faith by our motivation which will then give us the opportunity to gain merits!
Title: Re: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: Big Uncle on January 17, 2013, 08:09:07 AM
Well, blind faith would be able to work during the middle ages when people were uneducated. People today are more exposed than ever and they know much more and more exposed to much more than before. So, blind faith wouldn't work and even if it did, it is flimsy and makes for a very unstable spiritual journey.

People who seeking various teachers but stick to none are just looking for a spiritual trip and nothing else. According to the great teachers, a faith that is backed up by wisdom and great learning is firmer and more stable than stone. Why? the teachings allow us to understand how our mind works and the teachings becomes like various methods to overcome our own ego. If we take the Dharma teachings to be applied than we can do wonders with our minds.

Hence, the masters of the past who needed to teach the masses who were uneducated, exhibited more miraculous powers to tame their disciples. This is because education levels were low and blind faith is more powerful than one that is supported by learning. However today, people are highly educated and exposed, hence the great masters manifest less miraculous powers and prefer to teach the Dharma so people find salvation through their spiritual learning and practice.
Title: Re: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: apprenticehealer on January 17, 2013, 09:26:17 AM
Blind faith is not encouraged by Buddhism !

Perhaps several thousands of years ago, when man is just a normal layman - blind faith might have been taught to ensure that the man practices what he was taught. i suppose it was a situation of ' do it or else !!!'

But in the present day and age, we are all exposed to some degree of education, we can think for ourselves, we have the intelligence to discern , the ability to know how we feel deep inside , the law and the social conditioning of the country and our peers. We should know better than our ancestors hundreds and thousands of years ago. We did evolved one way or another.

Practicing Buddhism is a thinking man's guide to how to live correctly and in the right manner, to walk on the right path. Having Faith is having Trust - Trust in the Dharma, Trust in our Guru that will lead us eventually to Enlightenment.
Title: Re: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: Q on January 17, 2013, 11:18:10 AM
Blind faith is not encouraged by Buddhism !

Perhaps several thousands of years ago, when man is just a normal layman - blind faith might have been taught to ensure that the man practices what he was taught. i suppose it was a situation of ' do it or else !!!'

But in the present day and age, we are all exposed to some degree of education, we can think for ourselves, we have the intelligence to discern , the ability to know how we feel deep inside , the law and the social conditioning of the country and our peers. We should know better than our ancestors hundreds and thousands of years ago. We did evolved one way or another.

Practicing Buddhism is a thinking man's guide to how to live correctly and in the right manner, to walk on the right path. Having Faith is having Trust - Trust in the Dharma, Trust in our Guru that will lead us eventually to Enlightenment.

That's true, what you said is logical and easily understood. Many times people question me about Buddhism and Enlightenment,, they ask "You have not truly seen it, you have not felt it, you have no idea what it is... how can you be so firm in it when you don't know what it is?"

And they do not realize that the very question is the answer in itself... What you don't know, learn it up.

Blind faith comes from the lack of wisdom. For all the good they have in praising the Buddha, that makes no difference for cessation of samsara comes from within. When we refuse to learn, refuse to change, refuse to practice the Dharma as our Guru teach us... then that is a recipe for developing blind faith... although initially one has great trust in the Dharma, it will reduce if we remain stagnant.

So, it's very easy to see which person in our Dharma center is there because they 'feel' that they will be saved and am there just for the 'feel good' factor... and those who are truly there without blind faith. The ones that truly trust the 3 Jewels will show in their transformation, while those that are just there for whatever reason they're there, either guilt or scared etc... they never show progress and eventually fall out of practice because the pull of samsara is just too strong.
Title: Re: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: buddhalovely on January 18, 2013, 03:22:12 AM
The Dharma of the Buddha is not a religion of blind faith. It is far more demanding than that. It is a religion of experience; of exploration and discovery. The Buddha said that his teaching was " ehipassiko " which means "come and see." Few of the great teachers in history have made such a bold and confident claim. His teachings not only withstand methodical examination, they demand it.

Because of this, the role of the faith faculty in Buddhism may be difficult to grasp. We should clarify that by "faith" I mean the enlightenment factor and spiritual faculty of "saddha." This is often translated "confidence" or "conviction" and both of these words are very good, but I still prefer the straightforward "faith" precisely because it is a loaded word which challenges us to deal with the implications.

Faith is a key factor in the list of wholesome states. It is one of the uplifting enlightenment factors, together with the related states of joy and energy. It is also one of the spiritual faculties, to be balanced with discriminating wisdom. Without wisdom, faith becomes superstition just as without faith wisdom is only a low cunning which justifies the defilements.
Title: Re: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: psylotripitaka on January 18, 2013, 06:03:55 AM
Its definitely a useful start, but staying there is dangerous.

Do to the kindness of the Guru though, we will quickly ascertain logic and experience to establish more reliable and firm types of faith that will take us deeper.
Title: Re: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: Q on January 18, 2013, 10:38:22 AM
Its definitely a useful start, but staying there is dangerous.

Do to the kindness of the Guru though, we will quickly ascertain logic and experience to establish more reliable and firm types of faith that will take us deeper.

What you said here is very true. Thanks for pointing out.

To a certain extent, blind faith is useful when we start out mainly because of our lack of knowledge. But it should not stay that way after being in Dharma for many years. Unfortunately, you will not see many people pursuing for knowledge and remain comfortable in the zone of 'blind faith'... and they don't even know they're there! Ignorance is truly the meanest poison...

Some people wonder why is it dangerous to stay in this state. There are many reason and one of it is you will not progress spiritually and eventually will fall off from the path of Dharma. I'm sure there are many more 'dangers' of blind faith, perhaps someone can list them here clearly for everyone to read =)
Title: Re: Is blind faith Buddhistic ?
Post by: RedLantern on April 28, 2013, 12:27:13 PM
There isn't any different in all types of Buddhism at all. The methods may be different,the results are the same.
Whoever thinks their tradition is right ,and all others are wrong,that's the point where you've stopped investigating.Only one truth,one nature and,one kind of Enlightenment,not several.
The Buddha knew different approaches were suitable for different people,that's why he gave so many different ways.Not because one is right and the other is wrong.It also has to do with culture.Whatever suits
a culture,that's the way Buddhism will go.Makes it more accessible for people and that's important.