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General Buddhism => General Buddhism => Topic started by: kris on December 29, 2011, 07:38:13 PM
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I was told that when Lama uses wrathful way onto his students, it will yield faster results. Why is it so? Is because when the Lama is "fierce", then we students act faster?
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Through countless past lives we (the sentient beings) had accumulated and ‘nurtured’ our delusions to what they are today. Hence, it is very difficult to transform our minds from a negative state to a positive state. We need powerful tantric wrathful methods to help us break through.
We know there 84000 methods that Buddha had taught. Each method is equally good in terms of treating a specific delusion of the sentient beings. The lama will use whatever appropriate methods to treat a particular delusion.
Due to the lama’s compassion, he uses wrathful method onto a student in the hope that the student will transform. This is usually done at the last resort when peaceful methods failed to transform the student concerned.
These wrathful methods are effective because it directly cuts through our egos and ignorance. It directly brings out our delusion which remains dormant when it is not being challenged. It wakes us up. We are given no option. It is a do-or-die situation. When the student is placed in that situation, he has to transform. The student may not be able to transform if he has too strong a negative karma that even the wrathful method cannot help.
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I'd like to quote from "Words of My Perfect Teacher" by Patrul Rinpoche:
"When the teacher seems to be furious with you, do not get angry. Instead, remind yourself that he must have glimpsed some fault in you and seen that this is the moment to correct it with such an outburst. When his anger has abated, go to him, confess your faults and vow not to repeat them."
This is one of the ways to follow a spiritual friend.
Wrathful methods are employed mostly in the Vajrayana tradition although it can be found in other schools of Buddhism as well, depending on the personality of the teacher. To have any results, there must be a strong guru-disciple relationship.
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Good question.. I wonder why do we tend to be afraid of someone who is wrathful/ angersome? For example in the workplace, we try not to do something stupid that would make the boss angry. Why? What do we fear? The consequence of having the boss get mad and dislike you = no promotion, less project involvement, low increment, even lower bonus... i.e. less rewards.
Does the above also apply for the Guru-Disciple scenario? Do we fear that we'd fall out of favour, which jump starts us to take corrective action when the Guru is wrathful?
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Good question.. I wonder why do we tend to be afraid of someone who is wrathful/ angersome? For example in the workplace, we try not to do something stupid that would make the boss angry. Why? What do we fear? The consequence of having the boss get mad and dislike you = no promotion, less project involvement, low increment, even lower bonus... i.e. less rewards.
Does the above also apply for the Guru-Disciple scenario? Do we fear that we'd fall out of favour, which jump starts us to take corrective action when the Guru is wrathful?
Yes, in secular work, when boss is angry, it mean no promotion, less project involvement, look bad/stupid, and ultimately means less $$$.
In Dharma work, I felt that when Guru is wrathful, it is not for us to look bad or less $$$, but I am so used to the secular work and immediately don't like it when Guru is wrathful. I will need to remind myself the Guru is doing his best to have us to transform our mind. Also, there are so many things I need to improve, so if the Guru is kind, he would "bother" to use wrathful methods on us (just like parents will yell at us if we don't do our homework...)
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Wrathful method is employed so that it helps to clear negative karma faster and develope wisdom faster too. However not everyone can take it :o Milerepa's Guru had employed wrathful methods to help the former to clear away his karmic debts of murdering a lot of people. It depends on whether you are ready to receive and your mindset of having faith in your Guru even if He employed wrathful method on you without finching or blaming your guru. I have witness that the results are very astonishing if the receiver is very stable and steadfast. At the same time one must visualise the wrathful method employed as blessing received.
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Wow,
Thank you L, I like your post.
If I may, I'd like to copy it.
Wrathful method is employed so that it helps to clear negative karma faster and develope wisdom faster too.
1. It clears negative karma
2. It clears it faster
3. It develops wisdom
However not everyone can take it :o Milerepa's Guru had employed wrathful methods to help the former to clear away his karmic debts of murdering a lot of people.
1. Not everyone can take it indeed, yet everyone can take it. For this I think it depends on a few things, namely:
a) MERIT: one needs enough merit to start with, the merit to meet a Guru that uses wrathful methods, and not everyone has that very rare type of merit. And on this observation, anyone that is experiencing a wrathful Guru should really think over this fact, the fact that it was extremely long and difficult to create the merits for this to happen and then treasure the experience even though it may feel difficult to bare.
b) WISDOM: the wisdom to understand that the wrath experienced, the in-comfort, maybe the shame, all these emotions that in an usual situation we would want to RUN AWAY from, are BENEFICIAL! This is wrath, this is not anger experienced, and it comes from a being that has unconditional and equanimous compassion, with a motivation to BENEFIT us.
It depends on whether you are ready to receive and your mindset of having faith in your Guru even if He employed wrathful method on you without finching or blaming your guru. I have witness that the results are very astonishing if the receiver is very stable and steadfast. At the same time one must visualise the wrathful method employed as blessing received.
With enough merit and wisdom paired with a mind of renunciation and a practice fueled by Guru devotion, most would understand, at least intellectually that wrath experienced by the Guru is one the most wonderful help one can receive to speed one up on the journey of spiritual practice.
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When a Guru uses a wrathful means to teach, it is out of the Guru's compassion, kindness and skillful means to help his students. He will use this means only when other methods has been tried and exhausted for he may have no choice but to go wrathful. This will depend on the student's mind. A stable and steadfast mind would not wavered easily for he knows the Guru did it not to hurt him but to guide and pull him back on the path. Hence, the blessing and propels him on his spiritual path.
In my opinion, even if student takes it negatively from such wrathful means, ran away and blame it on the Guru, it is still a blessing to the student's mind...a deep imprint. It will open up when the right situation occurs.
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Hope Rainbow and Lightning, thank you.
I understand it quite simply that wrathful means is a rapid way to get us off our negativities and move forward and progress in our dharma journey. Seriously, when were the times that we learnt our best lessons which stuck with us through time and we never forgot? It was when the lesson was hard and pushed us to the next level. We will never know a slap hurts that bad until we get slapped, right? We will never know to be careful when riding a bicycle until we have fallen and there is a scar to remind us, we remember the pain and we will always be careful. People who train for competitive sports do not have it sweet and easy, they are constantly pushed both physically and emotionally, and as a result they excel.
On this note, it is the same with a Guru's wrathful means. In the wrathful means it makes us think hard because we experience pain and remorse and something deep in our soul wants to change so that we do not have to experience the "pain" again.
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As most of the above mentioned, the wrathful or fierce method from the Guru is to purify our negative karma. The feeling from the students towards the fierce it's not just to scarred but is to make us realize our mistake and it go deep inside our heart and mind to feel regret and to transform.
I have experienced this before. Initially it was just like blowing my mind with the loud voice of my Guru it really shake my entire mind and with a mix of guilt and regret feelings. It's with this feeling we will get it to the bottom of our heart to remember it and didn't stop just there. To think of a way to correct our mistake and remind ourselves to not repeat it. We will never want to feel it again.
It's not easy but it's a fast way to change our mind and attitude.
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Wrathful methods yield faster results as it "focuses" on our delusional state of denial, the stubbornness of our state of minds and the eccentricity of our egos.
Peaceful methods do not work as it requires an often sudden and unexpected angle of "attack" to subdue these "demons" within us.
And if these wrathful methods do not work then "Fierce" methods come into play. A skilled Lama will find every and any means to help the student transform. These methods on the surface may seem excessive (as one only dwells on one's own delusional perceptions) but because it is done with great compassion and with pure motivation it is actually the best way to achieve the necessary results.
However it is also dependent on the recipients karma, merits and also their willingness to submit and transform. Rejoice if we have the opportunity to come across such a skillful and compassionate teacher!
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These methods on the surface may seem excessive (as one only dwells on one's own delusional perceptions) but because it is done with great compassion and with pure motivation it is actually the best way to achieve the necessary results.
We live in a world enthroning our EGO's, so it is no surprise we find it shocking when our EGO is threatened.
The fact is that we have enthroned the wrong aspect of our experience of reality, and this enthroned EGO is like a dictator defending its enthronement FIERCELY!
So wrathful means is the fast method to dethrone them, a FIERCE method.
Can a peaceful method work also? Yes, it works but it takes infinitely longer and we only have a few years with out current aggregates, we don't have the luxury of time!
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I remember when i was really young. i always hide all my home work under my bed. until one day my teacher calling my mum, then .......
at home my mum show me her wrathful face, then i quickly to bring it out ! and do it. sometime people dont understand wrathful & angry!
for my understanding Buddha wrathful is same like my mother. because they love us !!
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when a Guru uses wrathful means to teach or get a point across, its usually the last resort and 99% of the time obstacles will mysteriously clear and the situation seems to get better. It works fast because beings respond to unhappiness and pain more than anything else and most of our problems are caused by negative karma and since suffering helps to "waste" away negative karma, they are cleared once we undergo suffering.
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Vajrayana masters have mastered the skill of transformation. A fundamental principle of their methods is to use whatever we are more familiar with to transform us. Eg, if we have been using the left hand to write, we can practice with without having to change to the right hand.
Since fear is a powerful energy , they use it to train us in mindfulness. The reason we enjoy reasonable peace in this world is due in part to fear of punishment when caught doing something bad. No one will abide by the laws of our country or care about it if there were no punishments if one breaks it.
Naturally , the use of such powerful energies must be tempered with love and compassion and a pure motivation to benefit the person concerned. Using wrath under any other circumstances will be dangerous as it quickly turns into anger which is difficult to control and instead of being a positive motivating force it becomes a destructive force.
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Let's me think few second why is wrathful teaching gives faster results??? Through my understanding regarding wrathful teaching or wrathful method used by high lama, it is a faster way to make the student gain high attainment in their spiritual practice. What I can explain is like this, in a family parent used be play two different role. For example if the father will be the serious and more fierce one, mother will be the soft, nice and sweet. When the kid doing something wrong, the father will be the person who will go to punish the kid, and be punished mother will play a role give the kid very warm and comfortable shoulder. However, the most effective method to change the kid bad habituation of course should be the wrathful method used by father.
The kid will remember very clearly what is the lesson he or she from his bad habit.
This logic also can match with the wrathful teaching used by high lama to teach his student a lesson. It is very logic and practical if you put dharma lesson with our daily life, everything is one actually. I used this example to understand the wrathful teaching done by full compassion high lama because I really seem a dharma teacher like my lovely parents. What do you think???? Can you share with me......???
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A Lama will use skilful methods to help his students. First he may try peaceful method but if it did not work or if it may take too long to work, out of his compassion and with the right motivation he will use wrathful method to break through his students and help them transform their mind from negative to positive. For the Lama to use wrathful method, the guru-student relation must be strong. The student must have faith and trust the Lama and understand that using wrathful method is to help them transform their mind. At times, the student may not be able to accept this wrathful method, and may run away. However, it is still a blessing as the imprints has been implanted.
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I've read a little about wrathful teaching in the vajrayana path. The sharing in here is enlightening and concurs with what the little I've read.
There's massive information available today on the different methods to teach and ways to instill new behaviors. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning)
A teacher who employs wrathful means takes on a great responsibility and risk of a student leaving the path because he or she couldn't accept the method of teaching. There are many insightful sharing on why a teacher uses such a method.
It could be as simple as the student not wanting to face the wrath of their teacher so the student complies to what is expected. The wrath of the teacher becomes a deterring factor. Through this process, the behaviour is being modified.
It is proven that habits can be formed or reformed if the person were to engage in a new behaviour, everyday for 2 weeks. The negative habits our spiritual teacher helps us to change stems from countless lifetimes, thus, it is not that easy to uproot.
Many of us may not be able to immediately see the positive effects from such methods to purify ones karma. Thus, faith there is an element of faith required in such a guru-student relationship. Understand the meaning of this relationship and staying focus on what we wish to achieve in our practice is important.
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This is an interesting topic. The guru applies he method as a doctor applies the correct method to cure the disease or problem. If surgery or amputation is needed then it needs to be applied. The Guru, being the doctor in this analogy applies wrathful method eg teaching as an antidote to that particular problem of the student as a means to cure or purify the manifesting karma.
Usually negative karma that are inherent in the student my not have manifest yet and the student can clear these karma by mind transformation, dharma work, puja etc. If it still manifest in a very negative way, the guru will apply the most effective means ie wrathful methods.
Another factor is that if the student has strong GD, the results is faster. The stronger the better.
Bottom-line is the stronger the method, the faster the result.
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I think wrathful method work closely with fear.
When we have fear, we will work to eliminate it or cut it down quickly. Wrathful method is a way to reveal our fear, fear of losing something, fear of not get the things done. It's like a powerful strength push us to do more.
A Guru don't show his wrath for sake of showing his power, he is using wrath as a method to push as there are no other way to push his students or disciples to do what he said, or he uses the method to quickly stop the student from something as he can tell something is harmful ahead. Behind the wrathful way there are same compassion and love from the Guru, just that he has to do this way for good.
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My mother disciplined her brood by persuasion, reasoning, cajoling and deprivation sometimes. However none of her methods could be half as effective as my father's wrath. My father was so well known for his wrathful methods that all it needed for him to stop whatever naughty doings we children were up to was just a silent but deadly stare from him.
Wrath leaves a strong impact in our memory and it is most effective for die hard habits. After a wrathful teaching, the student will be very mindful of not incurring the Guru's wrath again . Thus the result comes faster as compared with peaceful teaching.
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There are times that your Guru may appear to give you a treat of vajra fist, but mind you that these are the hands that take away you heavey negative karma in one shot! Preharps preventing you from catching heavy illiness or early death. etc.
Because there are many people still have strong habitual problems that they are not suitable to receive wrathful treatment and a moment of bearing grudge against your root guru may result to incurring very heavy negative karma
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My mother disciplined her brood by persuasion, reasoning, cajoling and deprivation sometimes. However none of her methods could be half as effective as my father's wrath. My father was so well known for his wrathful methods that all it needed for him to stop whatever naughty doings we children were up to was just a silent but deadly stare from him.
Wrath leaves a strong impact in our memory and it is most effective for die hard habits. After a wrathful teaching, the student will be very mindful of not incurring the Guru's wrath again . Thus the result comes faster as compared with peaceful teaching.
I agree with you Kurava, wrathful method leaves a deeper impression and it serves as a barrier for us from getting into worse actions or habits that can cause us or others sufferings. At the end of the day, we have to remember, what does a guru get by being wrathful? As nobody likes to be scolded or screamed at. The answer is pure simple, it is totally out of "GREAT COMPASSION" that the guru will employ this method.
Wouldn't a lama or Guru gain more students and attract more sponsors if the guru always speaks nothing but nice words to his students? Then think why would a "REAL" guru use wrathful method if it is not to the benefit of the disciple. It is definitely out of love and great compassion......becasue the guru does not want to see us suffer now and in future.
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Wrath leaves a strong impact in our memory and it is most effective for die hard habits. After a wrathful teaching, the student will be very mindful of not incurring the Guru's wrath again . Thus the result comes faster as compared with peaceful teaching.
Dear Kurava, I would like to expand a little on what you have said here, if I may... I disagree with the sentence that the student will be mindful of not incurring the Guru's wrath again! The student should reflect on why the method was used and what was the method used to curb. If it is merely fear of incurring wrath, then the student has not learnt the lesson.
When wrathful methods are skillfully used by our Guru, it is not to instill fear but to break through our delusional defences... making us "see" our innermost self. And if the student sees that, it is actually quite "uplifting" and will feel like a load off one shoulders... It should not be fear in any way, because fear is still our egos manifesting in a "poor me" attitude... at least that is how I see it. :)
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Quote from Positive Change :
"These methods on the surface may seem excessive (as one only dwells on one's own delusional perceptions) but because it is done with great compassion and with pure motivation it is actually the best way to achieve the necessary results."
What I Understand the meaning of this wrathful methods are skillfully used by our Guru to break through our delusional defences... making us "see" our innermost self also break through his students and help them transform their mind from negative to positive. Is like the parent use the wrathful methods to the children is more effective , the result comes faster as compared with peaceful teaching.This is what i understand and what do u think?
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Personally, I always think that people learn faster and better when there's pain and difficulty.
For example, when we were a kid, we didn't know the danger of fire. Our parents kept remind us not to play with fire but we didn't know why, untill we experience the pain. Not that without pain and difficulty we couldn't learn, but with pain and difficulty we learn faster and better.
Cause the pain and difficulty left us out from our own 'comfort zone'. Just like the wrathful teaching, we are forced to transform. No excues to justify our own bad qualities. No pity-me-attitude to justify our own ego. We are pushed to admit and face the ugly truth. The wrathful teaching always show the monster inside us.
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All teachings from a Lama are to benefit us and most of us due to our conditioned living in fear of losing, we may respond better with wrathful means.
I always recall the first thing, a parent would tell a child who has first learnt to walk, "watch out or you will fall". Out of care and kindness, the parent has indoctrinated fear into the child. We live like that, so out of the Lama's desire for us to transform, He has to use the same method we are accustomed to.
However what I have observed is that many of us do not really respond in the same manner and I have great respect for Lamas who do so much for us and still have hope for us.
In whatever method our Lama/Guru use on us, learn the deeper meaning of our own faults, delusions and our vain protection of our ego and do our best to take on the challenge and get rid of them. The result is a happy you, so why not? So beneficial.
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Wrathful practice can accelerate your progress.The wrathful practice is called "wrathful" because hatred is the emotion you most stir up and attempts to transform.As part of the method,you rely on a "wrathful yidam" or
visualise enraged diety.With this practise,hatred can be transform into the clarity of enlightenment.
According to Tibetan Buddhism,destruction iis one of the 4 functions of a Buddha.Wrathful practise gives gives you the clarity to know the must be destroyed and the ferocity to destroy it.For many of us Buddhist practise
,makes our life work better and the main motivation.Part of the wrathful method is to abandon or even destroy any aspect of your life that interferes with your practise.Everything in life except practise can fall apart
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Human beings are experts are avoiding discomfort and over time we have mastered the art of Denial and Avoidance. We have even given medical names for poor character such as "psychopathy" and apportion blame outwardly to a number of factors thus throwing attention from oneself.
The "polite" society does not like confrontations and chooses instead to pretend that all is ok. In that environment we have not learned and have in fact nurtured conditions for our negative karma to ripen and flourish.
A Guru is the most kind person we will ever meet and would prefer to be gentle and kind. However, when that approach does not work, and for all our sakes, the Guru is forced to use wrathful means to confront us with our negativities. We have to be pushed by the Guru to deal with our own negative mind because no one else cares enough or have enough skills to deal with our tricky minds.
There is a saying that applies very well here i.e "sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind"....except, because of the motivation of the Guru, the wrathful methods should never be seen as cruel.
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Wrathful methods bring faster results because it is the most drastic move with a pure motivation to help the person or a situation. Let's say for example, a mother had to use the wrathful method of beating her own child to prevent her from getting into big trouble over and over again (let's say stealing) and by making the child heed her orders. To many, it may seems harsh on the child but when you have used up all ways advising her not to repeat the offence, you just have to use the wraftful method to make it work. The child being punished but won't be repeating the offence for fearing the beating. And for all, its still for the child's own good. That is my understanding.
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With teaching, why does one have to be wrathful towards you? If they didn't care, they wouldn't be bothered or couldn't care less about what you do. So obviously with wrath, there is a degree of care and compassion that motivates someone to be wratful towards you right?
Say for instance you go to school. Everytime you make the same mistake in your maths calculation or didn't do your homework.. And after a few tries on helping you, your school teacher can choose, either to put you in detention, scold you or not care less anymore. But they only do it to a certain extent. After a few tries, they give up. But one's guru.. one's guru will use different ways and methods to make you realise and improve. He/She will not give up, (unless you give up on yourself or really choose not to change), and when using the wrathful energy, it is motivated purely by compassion and care, otherwise why waste energy and be wrathful towards you risking his/her reputation and your trust? There is no need to risk that if the guru did not care.
As with what has been said, using wrath to teach gives faster results because students get scared and want to improve, notices what they've done wrong and not repeat it and of course trusts that the guru does it due to reasons beyond what we can see and imagine amongst many other factors. Like HH. Kyabje Zong Rinpoche, who was known to be extremely wrathful and strict. When Zong Rinpoche was the abbot of Gaden Shartse, Rinpoche brought Shartse to new heights of monastic scholarship and the epitome of monastic discipline. Rinpoche was wrathful but look at the results.. It is so because it was motivated out of pure love and compassion. Imagine if Zong Rinpoche didn't care.. it would be exactly like what the current abbot of Shartse is now achieving under his tenureship - nothing (sorry to say!).
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Your teacher will only act out of compassion, and depending on the person sometimes a wrathful nature is needed to change the person quicker, or sometimes if it wasn't for the wrathful nature of the teacher, the person wouldn't change.
It is an attitude, being laid back and nice sometimes doesn't yield results. The teacher can't be around forever, so for the fastest change he/she will sometimes employ wrathful methods to wake you up and change you. Dorje Shugden is a wrathful buddha, and therefore it is said that he brings the quickest results. So if you believe in Dorje Shugden, why not in wrathful teachers? But remember it shouldn't be from fear that you act, but from the understanding of why the teacher is being wrathful.
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I was told that when Lama uses wrathful way onto his students, it will yield faster results. Why is it so? Is because when the Lama is "fierce", then we students act faster?
The saying "Different strokes for different folks" can be aptly applied here. Some Lama's do use the wrathful methods to invoke and "provoke" faster results. Results being transformation... mind transformation!
Wrathful methods may not work on certain people... sometimes it takes other skillful methods. However, I do believe that wrathful methods do indeed yield quicker results as it targets the very buttons of our insecurities which are really nothing but our varying degrees of an egotistical nature!
Pushing these very buttons directly would inevitably trigger the worse in us to manifest... but through the skillful methods of the Lama, while this is happening, a "mirror" would be shown to us to make us see and realise our delusional and deceptive minds. It is a "shortcut" in purification and realization... how lucky, beneficial and meritorious it is for those of us who have such lamas to guide us!
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Any real Guru will do whatever it takes to transform his students mind. If the peaceful method is not working, the Guru will use wrathful means out of love and deep compassion like a mother for his only child. Sometimes the mother talks nicely but sometimes the mother scolds, and it is out of great care and love for the child to learn. They say to receive the wrathful methods is the like a blessing in disguise to purify the student's heavy negative karma. The student may experience pain from the wrathful medicine but this medicine though bitter will help the student greatly. Sometimes even save the student's life. So yes it is a faster method to wake the student up before it is too late but it is always done with pure compassion and when the gentle peaceful method did not work.
The other side of the coin, is that the student receiving this wrathful method from the Guru is extremely lucky and it also shows the level of stability and trust the student have on his Guru that allows the Guru to manifest such wrath. Some students will probably never get the wrathful methods, these could be that this student will not be able to accept it as he/she is not stable enough and does not have a strong and perhaps it will cause more negative effects then positive. So the student that receives this means of wake up call must realise how fortunate he/she is that the Guru cares enough to trigger and purify the students negative karma.
I have heard of a story where there was 2 students of Zong Rinpoche and one of the students got the beating from Zong Rinpoche and the other did not and the one that did not the this form of purification actually is the one that dies the next day. So how fortunate we to be able to receive such wrathful means to help clear our inner obstacles. Which Guru would do this just to hurt the student, or make him/she run away? The Guru does this wrathful means simply because he truly wishes to help on transform internally!
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my view on wrathful teachings can give faster result. i somehow think if the student is 'not ready' for the wrathful method (which the Guru will know), the Guru will not be using it. but having said that, every individuals have their own karma and plus points. So i don't think using wrathful method on everyone will work, some will even back fire and we don't get the supposedly good result instead it become worst.
Wrathful is meant to be the hardest thing to do for a student because i feel it is supposed to bring an impactful effect on the situation. For instance you have a friend who is involved in drugs but despite repeated advises to ask him to stop taking it or receive rehabilitation, he doesn't heed your advises. you in turn made a 'wrathful' decision like to report him to a police in order for him to be arrested and get rehabilitation instead of seeing him dropping further to the state that he can't be help anymore (let's say he had to steal, cheat, rob or even kill in order to get drugs).
So this action of yours may seemed unpopular to many but it solves the problem. this is my understanding of wrathful. this is just an instance that i use this as an example.
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Wrathful teaching or methods (as i understand it) is exactly that.... A method to deal with stubborn egos that peaceful methods may not pacify or combat. It may seem 'quicker' as it shocks me into realization so to speak. I liken it to a mother scolding her child for doing something stupid/dangerous so the child will refrain from doing it again... It is certainly more effective than sitting the child down and having a discourse... In that sense more efficatious but not always always appropriate as it all depends on what the situstion is and how the child is feeling or have been dealt with in the past. Hence on that same token, when a teacher uses wrathful methods/teachings it is i feel an almost last ditch effort to make the student see theerror of their ways... Hence personifies the teachers care and skill....
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With compassion of the guru wrathful method been used with some students to help clear their negative karma and get rid of their ego and the result is to bring the student realize and come back to the right path..
The Guru is so compassion to use wrathful for purely benefit of the student which the guru can be criticize from other students who does not understand in wrathful actions and it motivations.
Not every time that guru will use wrathful method with student. Because wrathful method does not come from emotion of anger, want to get back etc but it come from contemplation of the guru that only this way that might wake the student up and be in the track.
Of course the result seem to be faster as the situation push you to think and do something about it faster as you do not want the situation getting worse.
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I believe Teachers use wrathful methods because the students refuse to change their bad habituations after countless advise. It's just the same as the method of a parent used, we probably don't notice it. The parent will use wrathful ways to stop us from doing more harm like scolding or hitting us. But this doesn't mean that they don't love us instead its the complete opposite, love and care. We may think that whatever we are doing is right but that doesn't mean it is. Some people may not understand the Teachers ways and often have wrong view therefore we should explain to them the logic behind it.
An example which we can share and read about more http://approachingaro.org/wrathful-teaching (http://approachingaro.org/wrathful-teaching)
The term “wrathful” is somewhat misleading. A “wrathful” teacher is not typically angry. Rather, it is the style of teaching that gets the fastest results by any means necessary. The teacher often deliberately provokes negative emotions in students. This gives the student material to work with, gives the teacher an opportunity to demonstrate or explain how to transform the emotion, or tests the student’s transformative ability.
The most obvious method is to display anger at a student. This is properly seen as a form of “personality display,” rather than ordinary anger—an emotion a qualified lama will have fully transformed. Another common technique is to lie to the student, telling them something they would naturally have a strong emotional reaction to. Or, the lama may put a student “on the spot,” by telling them to do something frightening, asking a pointed question, or insulting them, in public. Wrathful lamas exert enormous pressure on their students to carry out difficult real-world tasks. They may deliberately inflate a student’s ego—and then suddenly pop it.
The student of Tantra should be in a constant state of panic. That panic is electric and should be regarded as worthwhile . . . . Panic is the source of open heart and open ground. Sudden panic creates an enormous sense of fresh air, and that quality of openness is exactly what Tantra should create. —Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche
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I was told that when Lama uses wrathful way onto his students, it will yield faster results. Why is it so? Is because when the Lama is "fierce", then we students act faster?
High lamas uses various different methods to teach his students. Which method to be used onto the students depends on the 'characteristics' of the individual student. For someone who is able to follow instructions at the first teaching, there is no need to use wrathful means on his/her.
No one likes to scream or yell at another person unless this person has anger management issue (seriously!), a lama uses wrathful method to students who needs the 'wake up call'. And it is extremely shameful for the student if his Guru has to cream or yell at him to make him understand or remember the teachings.
Wrathful method might not show results if the students do not have the merits to understand the teaching..
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A teacher who uses wrathful methods on his students is no ordinary teacher. Why would any ordained person run the risk of destroying everything in a moment of anger. Surely not, for anger that arises out of delusion.
The Buddhas manifests in various forms, peaceful and wrathful. Tara is widely practiced and she embodies the energy of enlightened activities. This does not mean her energy is exclusive to just activities and that she has no wisdom. It is precisely out of compassion that this energy and blessings arises from. When we propitiate Tara for the energy of activities, we also tapped into the enlightened energies of all the Buddhas.
Je Tsongkhapa is an incredible Yidam, outwardly peaceful but embodying compassion, wisdom and the wrathful energies of Vajrapani wielder of the thunderbolt with energies that is irrepressible. Now, wouldn't anyone wish to have all these qualities?!
Well then, rejoice when we meet a Guru who embodies these qualities. Meditating on the Guru's qualities bring much blessings and out of the Guru's compassion, he reaches out to us thru various methods including using the fear element... if that is what it takes to establish a bond with us, a bond that under it all will link us straight to paradise!
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I think this quote from Hope Rainbow is rather interesting:-
a) MERIT: one needs enough merit to start with, the merit to meet a Guru that uses wrathful methods, and not everyone has that very rare type of merit. And on this observation, anyone that is experiencing a wrathful Guru should really think over this fact, the fact that it was extremely long and difficult to create the merits for this to happen and then treasure the experience even though it may feel difficult to bare.
I have seen some instances where some students do not experience any wrath from the guru even though the person is considerably more difficult than some students. I was told that it's because the student who experience wrath has the merits and possess a more stable mind. Their minds are at a level where they are able to undergo such training. Of course it is not the case for every single person. Some students are so difficult and have heavy negative karma that they do require wraftful methods to purify them. When one experience wrath, it will purify their karma quicker and tremendously.
Likewise, when a guru knows a person are not able to transform within this lifetime, the guru will leave them alone as nothing will penetrate them, not even wrath. Again, it does not apply to all case.
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The logic is simple. When our parents are nice to us, we usually do not take their words seriously. But when they are angry we will be pushed to do more and follow their instructions. The reason why our parents might be wrathful to us is because they want us to improve, they do not want us to fail. This is the same when it comes to spiritual practice. When our Guru is nice to us, we do not really care to push ourselves more. But when our guru becomes wrathful, we will be scared and we will push ourselves to fulfill our lama's wish and follow their instructions. Or another way of looking at it is that when we have a cat running after us, we don't really have to run fast, we can even play with it. But when it is a tiger chasing after us, we will run as fast as we can to save our own life, we push ourselves to freedom.
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Wrathful teachings are necessary at times because of exactly what Dolce Vita said... like a mother caring for her only child and very naughty child... sometimes they need to be told off to stop being naughty. This is done usually after a few attempts that are more softer, compassionate approach. And it is done because the mother cares.
This is likened to the spiritual guide who love and care for his student so much that He/She would use wrathful methods if needed. The Guru/Spiritual Guide is also alwa Also this method is to also use to wake people up from their comfort zones and remain stagnant. Only someone who loves you with no agenda would take the risk of being wrathful and using such skill to wake the student up.
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When the teacher shows wrath, it is usually because ordinary methods have failed to work and the teacher is not left with a choice but to be angry and wrathful. In some cases, the teacher will be most wrathful to the student that he loves the most as he wants this student to improve faster. Some lamas in the past even beat up the student and as a result this student can develop faster.
As I quote from Zazep Rinpoche:
The seventh benefit of having teacher is, it says that if you have a teacher, one will not experience sufferings of lower migrations and lower rebirth, or suffering like being in the lower realms, being reborn in the lower realms. And because of the power and kindness of guru, will purify those karmas. Because if one finds a good teacher, enlightened teacher, because of the skillful means of this guru's conduct, and whatever the guru is doing to you becomes a teaching, becomes an enlightening experience.
There was a great Kargyupa lama called Dongun Sanpa Gyargye, great Kargyupa lama, great yogi, saint. He was a very famous poet, like Milarepa. He said when the guru is beating you, hitting you, you feel like you're receiving great initiation. And you feel you're blessed, totally blessed. When my guru is scolding at me, I feel like I'm receiving new mantra, and I'm receiving lung of transmission of new mantra, therefore all my obstacles on the path to enlightenment will immediately disappear.
So, I'm not sure you'll find a guru who will beat you, and who will scold you. I'm not sure we will find one like this, that kind of guru these days. It will be a difficult one. It is also difficult for the guru. And in today's North America society, if guru is beating disciple, or scolding, then guru could be charged for abuse and mental cruelty and physical abuse. Guru could end up in jail. [Laughter] I don't think there are many gurus who dare to do that. Even if he wish to do that, thinks it's good to do this, I think one has to be actually kind of enlightened disciple, one has to be enlightened guru, both, if you're willing to take that kind of chance or challenge. Or you have to be back in Tibet, go back to Tibet, and live in the mountains somewhere and you have to have a real blind faith and say, "Please hit me, Lama! Teach me, Lama! I can't meditate. I want you to hit me four times. Yesterday you hit me, and my meditation was so good. Please hit me more! I like having lumps on my head. [more laughter] I feel so good after you scold me. I feel so good. All my defilements went and I feel uplifted, I feel almost I was going to levitate."
So, it's part of our culture, maybe a little bit of blind faith mixed up, whatever. See the thing is, it doesn't matter if it's blind faith or whatever. If you do really have devotion, you have that kind of mind, faith, I mean trust. If you have a good teacher who is teaching you from pure heart, totally selfless, guru who has unconditioned love, compassion for you. If he thinks it's important to hit you, then that kind of hitting, it is like an initiation, it is like blessing.
There was a great Kargyupa lama called Dongun Sanpa Gyargye, great Kargyupa lama, great yogi, saint. He was a very famous poet, like Milarepa. He said when the guru is beating you, hitting you, you feel like you're receiving great initiation. And you feel you're blessed, totally blessed. When my guru is scolding at me, I feel like I'm receiving new mantra, and I'm receiving lung of transmission of new mantra, therefore all my obstacles on the path to enlightenment will immediately disappear.
So, I'm not sure you'll find a guru who will beat you, and who will scold you. I'm not sure we will find one like this, that kind of guru these days. It will be a difficult one. It is also difficult for the guru. And in today's North America society, if guru is beating disciple, or scolding, then guru could be charged for abuse and mental cruelty and physical abuse. Guru could end up in jail. [Laughter] I don't think there are many gurus who dare to do that. Even if he wish to do that, thinks it's good to do this, I think one has to be actually kind of enlightened disciple, one has to be enlightened guru, both, if you're willing to take that kind of chance or challenge. Or you have to be back in Tibet, go back to Tibet, and live in the mountains somewhere and you have to have a real blind faith and say, "Please hit me, Lama! Teach me, Lama! I can't meditate. I want you to hit me four times. Yesterday you hit me, and my meditation was so good. Please hit me more! I like having lumps on my head. [more laughter] I feel so good after you scold me. I feel so good. All my defilements went and I feel uplifted, I feel almost I was going to levitate."
So, it's part of our culture, maybe a little bit of blind faith mixed up, whatever. See the thing is, it doesn't matter if it's blind faith or whatever. If you do really have devotion, you have that kind of mind, faith, I mean trust. If you have a good teacher who is teaching you from pure heart, totally selfless, guru who has unconditioned love, compassion for you. If he thinks it's important to hit you, then that kind of hitting, it is like an initiation, it is like blessing.
When I was young, I was small, I was teenaged, my guru beat me. Sometimes hard when teacher hitting, and then sometimes I see the difference next day, my meditation is better. I can memorize text really fast! So I feel, I wish he will come and beat me again, and sometimes I feel, "I should create conditions and maybe I should make him mad, and then he will come and hit me. But then if I make him mad, then it's bad karma making guru being mad, that's not good. So what kind of attitude is this?" [Laughter] It's a guru-disciple game.
http://www.gblt.site50.net/index.php?library_dest=gyp06&library=library02.03.03&main=main03.03 (http://www.gblt.site50.net/index.php?library_dest=gyp06&library=library02.03.03&main=main03.03)
And needless to say Zazep Rinpoche became a very accomplished practitioner. Wrathful actions work faster because they directly cut through delusions and negative habits as opposed gentle reinforcement.
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Wrathful methods would only work if it is done with Bodhichitta or a spontaneously compassionate mind. And most Gurus would only employ it as the last resort when all other 'peaceful' methods have failed to deliver the intended result.
I think wrathful method is quicker because it induces fear in people and when a healthy dose of fear does amazing wonders to lower the ego and get the person 'straightened' out. When we know the teacher well and his intentions and when he employs wrath, we just have to surrender our ego and embrace the message and not the tone or the manner in which the message was delivered. It would be far better to engage wrath of a spiritual teacher in this manner.
When a teacher employs wrath, he is working on many levels, on one level, he is training us to be more patient so we are prepared to deal with strange and difficult people later that we are supposed to help. On another level, he is breaking the barriers from which we have resisted some of the more subtler (or in some cases overt) instructions that the teacher has given us. In a spiritual sense, such resistance is not a welcomed ingredient in the relationship because it will setback the spiritual development of a person and also the spiritual teacher's work as well.
In the end, wrath has a tremendous ability to purify large amounts of negative karma and also remove lots of obscurations that is hindering our spiritual path and work. Again, all this possible because of the motivation of the spiritual teacher.