dorjeshugden.com
General Buddhism => General Buddhism => Topic started by: Positive Change on December 15, 2011, 01:11:48 PM
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When I was visiting Bangkok a while back, I had noticed a beautiful Dorje Shugden statue in the center of a beautiful outdoor public shrine where a large (3 feet) four faced Buddha was. The Dorje Shugden statue was about 8" or more in height. I believe it was an offering from a devotee in Bangkok (how wonderful!).
That particular shrine was in a busy part of town and the shrine was very popular in that a lot of people went up to make offerings daily (how meritorious!). Even the Dorje Shugden statue had a little flower garland offering. However, after a couple of days I had noticed that the statue was gone!!!
I wondered if someone had removed it or taken it for themselves. My question is, if someone had indeed taken the statue for him or her self, would that constitute as stealing even if the motivation was to take it home to set up an altar and make offerings? Would it not deprive others of making offerings and thus be bad karma. I know one should never take something that does not belong to anyone else but technically the statue did not belong to anyone... however one might argue it did belong to EVERYONE.
So would this be stealing?
Would it be the same as picking up a statue by the side of the road?
What if there were two identical statues there and one was left?
Seems like a mundane question but can someone "humour" me... :)
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I steal by taking something that does not belong to me and I make that act complete by considering that it is now mine.
So yes, it is stealing if I take a statue of a Buddha that is not there for me to take on a "free distribution" basis, an object that does not belong to me.
Then, if after I have done that I can justify in my mind that it was not stealing and therefore consider this statue to be mine, I have actually completed ALL the karmic parts that make the act of stealing complete.
So we should be very careful with the justification we delude our mind with when we abuse people's properties or the community's properties, because that justification (thinking that the stolen object is mine) seals the karma of stealing, making the karma much stronger than if we had regrets over our action.
If I think that the object is mine, how could I develop regret over the act of stealing that I have committed.
It is impossible, how could I possibly rejoice over my act and develop regret at the same time?
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I steal by taking something that does not belong to me and I make that act complete by considering that it is now mine.
So yes, it is stealing if I take a statue of a Buddha that is not there for me to take on a "free distribution" basis, an object that does not belong to me.
Then, if after I have done that I can justify in my mind that it was not stealing and therefore consider this statue to be mine, I have actually completed ALL the karmic parts that make the act of stealing complete.
So we should be very careful with the justification we delude our mind with when we abuse people's properties or the community's properties, because that justification (thinking that the stolen object is mine) seals the karma of stealing, making the karma much stronger than if we had regrets over our action.
If I think that the object is mine, how could I develop regret over the act of stealing that I have committed.
It is impossible, how could I possibly rejoice over my act and develop regret at the same time?
Thank you HR,
This is indeed very clear. We do tend to justify our actions or thoughts even. Hence the mind can be a trusted ally or a deadly foe... we have to be constantly aware of our mind in order for it to be used in a proper manner.
Stealing which is taking something that does not belong to you is just that! There is no ifs or buts about it. Actually a lot of times our choices are very cut and dry or black and white... it is our deluded mind that can come up with the most interesting justifications or reasons as to why we chose to act in a selfish way! It applies to lying, etc.
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Thank you very much, Hope Rainbow. What a clear and precise explanations. One should check their mind and contemplate on before one "take" the statue thinking that it is alright to take. Taking it and justifying that it is "mine" and "alright" to do so, seals that stealing karma. And yet still it is from a place of worship for everyone to make offerings! Very bad!
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Thank you PA and BB, I wonder now if the karma of stealing a Buddha statue is different from the karma of stealing a Barbie doll? What do you think?
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The act is still stealing...this constitutes the stealing karma. The only different is the object. Where in the case of "stealing" a Buddha statue, it has serious consequences over stealing a barbie doll. Because when one steals a Buddha being a holy statue (from a place of worship), it deprive many others their "rights of sanctuary".
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The act is still stealing...this constitutes the stealing karma. The only different is the object. Where in the case of "stealing" a Buddha statue, it has serious consequences over stealing a barbie doll. Because when one steals a Buddha being a holy statue (from a place of worship), it deprive many others their "rights of sanctuary".
Thank you BB, but is the karma the same if the person who steals:
(a) does not consider the Buddha statue as holy
OR (b) if he does?
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Thank you BB, but is the karma the same if the person who steals:
(a) does not consider the Buddha statue as holy
OR (b) if he does?
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I think that the karma for both is the same as the result of the action is the same.
However, the karma for the person who regards the statue to be holy should be worse than the person who does not because it then becomes a conscious act than someone who is stealing for material gain. I guess at the end of the day it depends on the motivation behind it.
I can't confirm. It just makes more sense to me this way.
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Thank you BB, but is the karma the same if the person who steals:
(a) does not consider the Buddha statue as holy
OR (b) if he does?
I think that the karma for both is the same as the result of the action is the same.
However, the karma for the person who regards the statue to be holy should be worse than the person who does not because it then becomes a conscious act than someone who is stealing for material gain. I guess at the end of the day it depends on the motivation behind it.
I can't confirm. It just makes more sense to me this way.
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My thoughts are similar as Aurore. Whether the person who steals regard the object as holy or not, still generate the same result of stealing karma. Stealing from a place of worship generates much heavier karma than someone who steals a barbie doll for pleasure or material gain.
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Yes it is stealing. Depends on the motivation as well. Whether to steal a Holy images or a mundane images, both have karma, and it is very hard to say.
If the statue is there on the altar for public, more people can pray and get benefit from it, if the person "took" back with whatever reason he/she might have, it is still bad as it is act out of selfishness.
But if the person took it to another bigger temple and set up at a nicer, higer throne and daily even more people coming to pray, does it consider good or bad? It is really depends on what the person did after taking the statue and the person motivation.
All action is just a way, tool, method, whether to use it to benefit others or for selfish reasons. That's why when our lama act in a wrathful way, slap or "punish" a student,we should be grateful as he is acting it out of love and care.
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So Dorjedakini... are you saying if in the situation I explained above, if the person or persons that took the statue, took it with the motivation to benefit more people than it is excusable? But is it not stealing all the same? So in your scenario, which of the following is true:
1. No negative karma
2. Lesser negative karma
3. Same negative karma but with an additional positive karma (**perhaps to balance things out - explained in the account of Buddha's previous life below)
On rare occasions killing is done through a good motivation, in which case a negative result will not come from that action.
There was an account of one such occasion in one of Buddha's past lives which is extracted as follows:
For example, in the account of the previous life of the Buddha
he was a sea captain. At that time a great fortune of jewels could
be obtained by going out to sea, but it was also very dangerous
and one could die. It was a risky adventure; one could return
either wealthy or not at all. If one set out to sea, one needed a
guide to lead the ship, a good person with experience. Buddha
was such a sea captain in a previous life and his actual name was
“Courage;” He led 500 merchants in a ship to obtain jewels but
there was a very negative person on that ship who became very
angry with everyone else. He thought that if he made a hole in
the bottom of the boat, it would sink and all the merchants
would die. He didn’t care if it killed him too. But Captain
Courage saw this and thought, “If I kill him, then it will save the
other merchants. The negative result of killing will come to me,
but it doesn’t matter what happens to me. I have to save the 500
merchants and also the man from accumulating such negative
karma.” With this motivation, Captain Courage hit this man on
the head with an axe and he died. Because of the good
motivation, this act did not lead to negative karma. He did kill
one man but saved the lives of 500 people; therefore it was a
good action instead of a negative one. Though the act may be an
act of killing, it may not be a negative action. This is because of
the motivation that was involved.
**However, I was told that even though it was not considered a negative action per se, Buddha did go to hell for that particular action from that life but only stayed for a very very short time (am not sure how long exactly but perhaps someone can shed some light on this!) and was reborn in the God's realm right after.
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Yes, from my understanding, it is stealing. Be it holy or mundane item, if u take something which is not belongs to you, and give all sorts of excuses, justification to our actions, claiming that others' belongings are mine, all these contributed to the cause of stealing and lying to ourselves. This is also a form of selfishness. For example, stealing holy statues from a chapel or holy site creates very bad karma, we create inconvenience for those worshipers as well. Therefore, the act of stealing actually links to lying, selfishness and sneakiness.
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So would this be stealing?
Would it be the same as picking up a statue by the side of the road?
What if there were two identical statues there and one was left?
Seems like a mundane question but can someone "humour" me... :)
The act of taking something that does not belong to you is stealing, be it a holy item or not. Nothing to argue about this. Also applies to whether there are 2 or more of the same statues at the altar. The fact that there are offerings made to the statue means that the statue is being prayed to and it is very bad for the person who took it and deprive many people from making offerings.
WRT picking up statues by the side of the road, we must also see whether the statue is being prayed to or dumped there. If it is being prayed to, then if we take it, then it is stealing. But if it is dumped, then I guess it may not be considered stealing. Cos some people's trash is other people's treasure.
The reason i say that picking up a statue by the road has 2 scenarios is because in Asia, there are land deities which people pray to and there are many of these by the side of the road.
I hope what i said made some sense.
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It is definitely stealing as it is taking what that doesn't belong to oneself. Moreover, this is an act that benefit one and deprive many as oppose to the story of the Buddha in a previous life killing one to safe many. To steal for a good motivation is like Robin Hood. Steal from the rich (few) to benefit the poor (many).
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Taking things which do not belong to us, and things are not free distribution, is stealing.
However, I pray that the person who took the Dorje Shugden statue will create an affinity with Him and plant the seed of Manjushri in him/her. May he/she become a Dharma teacher in this life or future lives.
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Yes, like mentioned by most of the comment posts, stealing is an action of bad karma and the negative karma will return back.
But they are always some circumstances which in the grey zone where it's not totally wrong nor totally right.
Like Robinhood's story who robs the rich and helps the poor, is Robinhood a bad person? It's always link back the motivation of the action.
If it's a selfish motivation, steal the statue for own's good, so that I can make offering and others cannot, or so it's convenience for me to pray, this definately bring very bad karma. But if the motivation is to give the statue a better place so more people can do prayers and offerings, the level of bad karma is not that bad.
The bad karma is still there from any negative action, but the level of it is differ depends on the motivation.
Like in one life of Shakyamurni Buddha, he killed a person who is going to murder all the people on the ship. Buddha still go to hell, for one day for killing. But the duration is not long because Buddha did it for a good motivation.
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Just to add - apparently if you took something by mistake, it does not constitute as stealing. Eg if you meant to steal a vase from the temple but you accidentally took a statue by mistake (ok ok let's say they were both in boxes so you couldn't tell exactly what it was), it doesn't count as stealing. But if you kept the item, knowing that it did not belong to you, it would constitute as stealing.
Even borrowing a pen from a friend and not returning it constitutes as stealing, let alone a holy item.
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1. he take the statue home. but in their mind dont have the thinking of stealing , so .... is it still cause stealing ?
2. when i was young, i hear my parent say that stealing Buddha statue from others , is more powerful ( example , 4 face Buddha ) . ???
is it all this wrong ?
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Taking things that do not belong to us is stealing. In this case, Dorje Shugden's statue is placed there for people to pray, to make offerings and receive blessings. So when it is stolen, it will deprive many from receiving blessings. The person who stole the statue does not care for others except for his own benefit. This is an act of selfishness and greed and it creates heavy negative karma.
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Wouldn't stealing/taking the statue depend on our motivation? What if someone left it there to benefit someone else? If that person took the statue with impure motivation, yes, I believe it will create a negative karma. But what if the person who took it wanted to setup an altar? Wouldn't the person who left it there collect merits everyday when offerings and prayers are done to the statue? For the whole action to be considered as negative karma, one have to complete the 4 Factors(motivation, intention, effort (or attempt) and satisfaction).
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I believe there are a multitude of variations when posing my question... I do agree with some that, stealing which literally means taking something that is not yours, is simply stealing...
What "varies" I suppose is the severity of the negative karma when it comes to the motivation behind the act of "stealing". I did pose a few scenarios and one of them being, perhaps it was put there and meant for someone to take (if there were more than one) and put on their altar.
I did also mention that the statue was put there like an offering and was not particularly the main deity of this outdoor shrine. Perhaps it was left there for people to receive blessings and perhaps it was left there for people to take... whichever it is, I believe, we in samsara will inevitably in some way or another create negative karma (in varied degrees of course) in whatever action we take or choices we make purely because we have not learnt to act out of pure motivation to benefit others. If we did we would not be here or would we? ;)
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I believe, we in samsara will inevitably in some way or another create negative karma (in varied degrees of course) in whatever action we take or choices we make because we have not learnt to act out of pure motivation to benefit others.
If we did we would not be here or would we? ;)
Indeed, a very interesting point PA. Thank you.
This is why we rely on our Guru and on His lineage to create merits, because alone we simply could only do good karma at best.
This is why one must see (and use) the Guru tree as a field of merit.
There is a specific topic on this here:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1374.msg18219#msg18219 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1374.msg18219#msg18219)
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I believe there are a multitude of variations when posing my question... I do agree with some that, stealing which literally means taking something that is not yours, is simply stealing...
What "varies" I suppose is the severity of the negative karma when it comes to the motivation behind the act of "stealing". I did pose a few scenarios and one of them being, perhaps it was put there and meant for someone to take (if there were more than one) and put on their altar.
I did also mention that the statue was put there like an offering and was not particularly the main deity of this outdoor shrine. Perhaps it was left there for people to receive blessings and perhaps it was left there for people to take... whichever it is, I believe, we in samsara will inevitably in some way or another create negative karma (in varied degrees of course) in whatever action we take or choices we make purely because we have not learnt to act out of pure motivation to benefit others. If we did we would not be here or would we? ;)
I supposed if it was left there without much security, it's not surprising that someone "might" take it. The percentage is very high especially if the statue is small. If it's left there for people to take and this person who takes it doesn't know that but wants to take it anyways, it is still considered stealing?
If it is, does this mean that leaving it there to be taken is unintentionally helping the other person collect negative karma? In that case, is this even a good thing to do?
OR is this whole leaving a statue there for people to steal could just be new methods of Buddhism which is to use human attachments to later convert them into deeper studies and to practice? As times are so degenerate, this skilful method could be necessary. There are so many possibilities. Don't you think? ;D
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I supposed if it was left there without much security, it's not surprising that someone "might" take it. The percentage is very high especially if the statue is small. If it's left there for people to take and this person who takes it doesn't know that but wants to take it anyways, it is still considered stealing?
If it is, does this mean that leaving it there to be taken is unintentionally helping the other person collect negative karma? In that case, is this even a good thing to do?
OR is this whole leaving a statue there for people to steal could just be new methods of Buddhism which is to use human attachments to later convert them into deeper studies and to practice? As times are so degenerate, this skilful method could be necessary. There are so many possibilities. Don't you think?
Hmmm interesting thought Aurore but perhaps we are bordering on using an excuse to justify the means here. I don't think leaving something for someone to take intentionally is bad because it causes no harm to to the person leaving it or the person taking it. It does not have the cause for hurt and therefore I personally feel it is ok. The motivation is correct in my mind but it is true that person may be "using" the delusion aspect of another to achieve the result... and I guess that is precisely your question... is that wrong? Well... for me I do not think so... :)
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I disagree, Bambi.
Taking something from someone/somewhere that does not belong to you is considered stealing. Even if your motivation was to set up an altar, then it was selfish as you would have deprived others the opportunity to make offerings and receive blessings. It would be greedy on your part as you took it for yourself, not considering the loss it would create for others. Just by this simple act alone, it only benefited the thief for his own selfish wants.
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1. he take the statue home. but in their mind dont have the thinking of stealing , so .... is it still cause stealing ?
2. when i was young, i hear my parent say that stealing Buddha statue from others , is more powerful ( example , 4 face Buddha ) . ???
is it all this wrong ?
1) taking things that not belong to you is 'stealing' whether with good motivation or not, or even you are not thinking about it.. Actions come from thoughts so it is impossible that you did not think about it, actually it a matter of you aware of it or not.. Then how heavy of the karma of this stealing is depend on the motivation..
If taking things that not belong to you is 'not stealing' then we can just go to everywhere and take anything we want.. We can go temple and take statue that we like or we can go to our freind house and take whatever things that we wish to have.. Very interesting isn't it???
2) yes, its a wrong view.. How can the statue that been stolen is more powerful? In the past i knew that many sacred Buddha statues in Thailand have been stolen, but of course it not because of the buddha statue have more powerful but it because of power of Money..
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We "steal" every moment in our lives whether we choose to or not. Perhaps too strong a statement but lets see it from this point:
Are we not "using" up the natural resources of this planet unwittingly and selfishly? Is this not "stealing" from the next generations? The natural resources of our beautiful planet DO NOT belong to us.
The very fact that we use paper in our daily lives we consume trees on an alarming rate. Everytime we flush the toilet we consume water at an alarming rate - water that need to be filtered - power to sustain these water treatment plants - coal that is used from the core of this planet to create this power!
It is all linked in our daily lives whether or not we choose to "see" or conveniently "ignore" it. Ignorance in this case is not bliss. Why do you think we are in the degenerate age? I believe, unbeknown to us, we are actually creating more negative karma than we are creating positive/good karma, hence we are degenerating! We need more spirituality to "combat" this alarming slippery, sliding scale.
So unless we are off meditating in a cave, we are in some ways "creating" negative karma in our very existence. Let us not even go on actual stealing, killing or the other poisons.
Point to ponder on huh!
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this consider 'stealing' take things without permission and not belongs to you, no matter good motivation or at the end is to benefit others. For example, if you can't accomplish daily sadhana commitment given by your guru for an deity and you think practise you done got effective?? I've doubt this. If you invite an buddha statue without taking from others and at the end people got connection or make offering sure you receive tremendious merit but on the other hand no merit at all might become good karma or even none.
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If we were to pick up any dictionary and checkout the definition of theft , we would most definitely find it to mean
: intentionally misappropriating property belonging to others with the intent to permanently deprive them of it .So if someone who comes across a nice statute on some nice alter somewhere and takes it without asking it's owner or caretaker and uses it for his own purpose ( keep it, give it away , destroys it and etc ) it amounts to misappropriating it ! Whether his action leads to good or bad does not matter as the act of theft is complete . The owner and those who benefits from the statute being there is now deprived.
Going back to what aurore said about the possibility of the act of leaving statutes or other items for "interested parties " to pick up could be encouraging the act of theft, I agree with that possibility because of the high probability that those who " misappropriate " it has all the requisite elements to complete the act of theft . However , there is a world of difference if there are explicit or implicit indications to made known to those interested in those items that they are free for the taking.
But , will a person be guilty of theft if he or she does not realise that whatever they are taking is free and does so with intent to steal and rejoices with the fact they believed they misappropriated others property, guilty ? Well not in the legal sense but morally ? Yes, there are dumb crooks out there ! So will they accumulate bad karma ?
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Wouldn't stealing/taking the statue depend on our motivation? What if someone left it there to benefit someone else? If that person took the statue with impure motivation, yes, I believe it will create a negative karma. But what if the person who took it wanted to setup an altar? Wouldn't the person who left it there collect merits everyday when offerings and prayers are done to the statue? For the whole action to be considered as negative karma, one have to complete the 4 Factors(motivation, intention, effort (or attempt) and satisfaction).
Dear Bambi
If the statue had been left there to benefit someone else, would the sponsor not have left a note to say that it is for FREE, so help yourself? Then if you took it, it would not have been considered stealing, cause stealing is when you take something from someone somewhere without permission. It had already been offered so there is no stealing here, you are merely taking something that does not belong to anyone anymore.
When you go shopping and there is a brochure that says it is for FREE and you take a copy, would you be considered stealing?
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In my opinion, though it brings merit to set up your own alter but the fact that this person took its merits away from many others, this causes it to be a sin. I believe that this statue was there to benefits others, when this person took it with him, it took away the many chances of others to sprout their seed of dharma. Although this also depends on the persons motivation, whether he took it away to set up another alter in a more public, open area to bring this statue to many others OR he stole it and decided to sell it or keep it all to himself. Even if he wanted it for the right reasons and have thoughts of bringing it home with him, he could just snap a picture, print it out and stick it on his alter instead of taking the whole statue with him.
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Taking something from other without permission is consider stealing either your motivation is right or not. Then how heavy of the negative karma is up to the motivation.
If taking thing from other without permission is not stealing then we can go to take other people money and things to give to other that we think they need it ie take money from rich but selfish people to give to the poor, and ultimately everyone can take other people things to give to other because we have a good motivation, just imagine how this world would be.. i don't think there will be any one who will work so hard to earn money to buy things as it can be taken by other any time and everyone will just go to take things that they want.. as it no karmic cause..
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Does anyone recall the story of Robin Hood? He stole from the rich to give to the poor. His motive for doing that is because he believed that the rich was stealing from the poor and he took justice into his own hands. So it appears that he was taking away something from someone (by force) to return it to its rightful owner.
What do you think about this scenario? Robin Hood gave all the loot he stole from the rich to the poor, he did not consider the loot to be his. Is this considered stealing?
On another note, you may have heard of celebrity shoplifters such as Winona Ryder and Lindsay Lohan, who are diagnosed as suffering from kleptomania. According to Mayo Clinic online resource, kleptomania is "the irresistible urge to steal items that you generally don't really need and that usually have little value" (I suppose trivial value is subjective here, since these celebrity shoplifters do not shop at regular malls like us...). Some kleptomaniacs apparently do not even realise that they are stealing and there is no apparent motive for them to steal.
What is the "karmic classification & treatment" of kleptomaniacs then?
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Positive Change,
I can imagine your feeling upon seeing the beautiful statute stolen! yES I think it is STEALING to take the statue home to make offerings and for prayers!
Instead of being available for general public to pray and make offerings, hence collect much needed merits, this people had selfishly remove it for his or her own benefit, if this is not stealing, I don't know what is ?!
The negative karma created by taking away (stealing !!! I am just being nice here) is extremely heavy!
I feel sorry for the thief!
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A bad action ,like stealing,even where with good motives is behind it,is still action that will receive a reaction corresponding to it's nature.The reciprocal action resulting from this action will be greatly mitigated or reduced by the rays of good motive motive which emanating from the spirit forms a protective layer around the individual.It is different with one who doesn't have a good motive.Such person will be more severely hit by the reciprocal action resulting from the bad action,because he has no protection aura due to his lack of good motive.Every evil action( no matter the motive behind it)will give rise an evil reciprocal action.
Therefore,no evil action is ever justified.
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Positive Change,
I can imagine your feeling upon seeing the beautiful statute stolen! yES I think it is STEALING to take the statue home to make offerings and for prayers!
Instead of being available for general public to pray and make offerings, hence collect much needed merits, this people had selfishly remove it for his or her own benefit, if this is not stealing, I don't know what is ?!
The negative karma created by taking away (stealing !!! I am just being nice here) is extremely heavy!
I feel sorry for the thief!
Well... I am still of two minds if this would constitute stealing. Perhaps it was put there to be taken... if the motivation was that and the motivation behind the person taking the statue was to perhaps revere it in a proper shrine... is it really wrong?
Fundamentally perhaps but if it does not harm anyone in the process, surely it is something "permissible"?
I understand taking something that does not belong to us constitute as stealing... however, what happens if one finds a puppy by the side of the road? Do we feed and shelter it? Or do we leave it be thinking it may belong to someone hence we could be stealing? I seriously do not know the answer to the question but what I would like to illustrate here is there are many different aspects to it and it is not always black and white. The karma may be but the motivation behind it may vary and hence the repercussions not as heavy?
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It is so often that our tainted views will find ways to justify our wrongful actions.
Not only in actions but also in our every moment thoughts, we will find ways to justify our wrong acts and thoughts.
In the practice of Dharma, we must be honest and not take unless it is for free distribution. Free distribution arises from sponsorship, so even if we are to take religious items on free distribution, it is good practice to still donate some financial assistance for replacement so that some one else can partake in this benefit.
Therefore taking without permission is stealing whatever the motivation may be.
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Taking something that doesn't belongs to you is stealing. Either a holy item or some other material object.
Both causes bad negative karma and karma has it cause and effect.
If someone has taken the holy statue of Dorje Shugden then maybe they have an affinity. Let's hope that that someone will be bless by Dorje Shugden and do more dharma work.
But to steal is definitely not an option.
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If the statue was taken away by someone without consent of the owner or the people who installed it, it is surely an act of stealing. Moreover, he/she have deprived the opportunity for others to make their offerings and prayers. Surely the purpose of having the statue at that particular location was to have it bless the area and all who catch a gaze at it. It would be so selfish to take the statue home.
Or could there be other reasons for the disappearance of the Dorje Shugden statue?