dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: thaimonk on November 26, 2011, 10:35:45 AM
-
The State Oracle of Tibet (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsS9FAdWgPc#ws)
It is very interesting His Holiness the Dalai Lama a monk, scholar, erudite master and a very down to earth and logical person also consults ancient oracles for his decision making.
The first deity he consults through the oracle is Nechung, who is known to be an unenlightened being. This is very fascinating also. You can read about the wordly spirit Nechung here: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/index.php?s=dorje+drakden (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/index.php?s=dorje+drakden)
If Dalai Lama is to ban deities entering oracles to speak as in the case of Dorje Shugden, how come Nechung is allowed to enter a Oracle to speak. And also Dalai Lama himself is consulting the spirit Nechung via the oracle in his private quarters as in the video? I am not looking to find fault with Dalai Lama or asking for criticism, but was wondering why two rules? Or two standards? His Holiness Dalai Lama asks us to trust Lord Buddha and not go into 'spirit worship' or get involved with spirits. What is happening here?
Any answers to this anyone?
-
You know why Thaimonk. What was it HHDL said to HH Trijang Chocktrul, if you give up this deity ( shugden ) our protector nechung will make you more powerful and successful then ever ::) Our protector Nechung ? now surely the only reason to rely on a Dharma protector is to primarily increase ones own Dharma accomplishments and cause proper worldly conditions to manifest for is manifestation. How can an unelightened protector like Neching do this ? Futher more it is known that the spirit of a monk will come to the nechung oracle and deliver bad advise to HHDL. Nechung advised His Holiness to stay in Tibet whereas Dorje shugden advised him to flee...
There are sometimes I wonder if when it was said that when HHDL started acting oddly some years ago that he had been influenced by certain characters black magic. So far from HHDL actions he had caused a schism within the Sangha and destroyed the (spiritual) lives of many thousands of practitoners. The only good that has come of this madness is that lines have been drawn in the sand so that after HHDL's passing several high profile Tulkus can recant his advise as there will be no political weight behind his succesor.
-
The only good that has come of this madness is that lines have been drawn in the sand so that after HHDL's passing several high profile Tulkus can recant his advise as there will be no political weight behind his succesor.
I am not wishing for Dalai Lama to pass away but it is inevitable. I agree with you, after his passing, his succesor will have very little poltical weight and therefore very little power. Then the many Tulkus and Geshes being trained up now will become very instrumental to bring this practice to many. The high profile Tulkus will be very powerful of course, but in today's world, if you have knowledge and can speak, then the internet (perhaps media) will make you into a high powered person/Tulku/Geshe/teacher/etc to bring Shugden's practice to many. Very different than before.
That day where the Shugden issue resolves is not far away. Not far away at all.
-
Of course,we can play the waiting game. ;)
-
We know that Nechung is actually a powerful spirit but he has been helping and assisting the Dalai Lama for many lifetimes already. Let us not forget who requested Dulzin Drakpa Gyeltsen to protect the Gaden tradition and who was the one who created the cause for him to assume the form of a protector and who was the one who named this Protector, Dorje Shugden Tsel.
Since that is the case, there must be a rhyme and reason for this contradiction. If Nechung has the wisdom to see the benefit that will arise for Dorje Shugden to arise, he must have a certain level of attainment and not just a mere spirit. He fanned the jealousy and intrique so Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen could be assassinated and assume the form of a Dharma Protector so he must be doing something similar right now with the Dalai Lama. It makes more sense to me this way. Perhaps, it is to push Dorje Shugden even bigger than ever before.
So, the Dalai Lama is not relying on him but working with him to push Dorje Shugden even bigger. Let's not forget the prophecy of the Nechung temple - a door remains sealed awaiting for the day Nechung would become enlightened and would vacate the temple. The sealed door would be opened to allow Dorje Shugden to enter and assume his rightful place as the King of Worldly Protectors.
-
It makes a lot of sense what you say ZW & BU otherwise yes it is total madness.
How can Nechung request for Dulzin to promise to be a dharma protector and then later on claim later he is bad. Sounds like double work for Nechung and the Dalai Lama since they are both clairvoyant. Unless this is all a premeditated plan to make Dorje Shugden grow bigger, faster. And yes indeed it does look that the Dalai Lama is making himself less influential, lesser in the political realm and power for his next successor. This also shows that Dalai Lama is not power hungry as claimed by some and that true to his nature, he is thinking how to benefit the world in a much bigger scale. I suppose some sacrifices need to be always made for good things to come.
In fact the ban has created more Dorje Shugden monasteries then ever before and perhaps these monasteries like Shar Gaden will be where Tulkus, Lamas and practitioners can look towards after HHDL passing to continue the pure Gelug practice without peverting it with politics, like a league of their own. These are perhaps what make sense to all the madness we are witnessing...
-
I am not wishing for Dalai Lama to pass away but it is inevitable. I agree with you, after his passing, his succesor will have very little poltical weight and therefore very little power. Then the many Tulkus and Geshes being trained up now will become very instrumental to bring this practice to many. The high profile Tulkus will be very powerful of course, but in today's world, if you have knowledge and can speak, then the internet (perhaps media) will make you into a high powered person/Tulku/Geshe/teacher/etc to bring Shugden's practice to many. Very different than before.
That day where the Shugden issue resolves is not far away. Not far away at all.
I can't agree more with you. I always believe that all the high incarnate lamas around the world are in a play, playing their individual roles to promote shugden/buddhism. After all, the benefits of an antibiotic made in 1950 will be less effective then the ones developed in 2011. Therefore, the methods and skills needed now to spread Buddhism are very different from 100 yrs ago. Therefore, let just see what will happened in 5 to 10 yrs time. I'm very sure Shugden practice will grow.
-
Let us all not forget that HHDL and Dorje Shugden are enlightened beings and even Nechung, to some degree he has some attainments. The work of these beings are sometimes beyond our normal limited scope of imagination, they will also use our jealousy, delusion and anger as part of the ingredients to make Dorje Shugden even more famous as a World Class Protector.
I guess if we are all enlightened, then probably such contradictions in the behaviour of HHDL and all these fuss are not required to bring Dorje Shugden to the world. It is always our ignorance and delusions that demanded the enlightened beings to use different methods to fullfill their role to benefit us and hence all beings.
For me, I am very confident that Dorje Shugden's practice will prevail through the ban and we will soon one day be free to practise openedly.
-
I do agree with triesa that the enlightened beings use all ways we could never imagine to spread Buddha dharma and that includes controversies. I think that HHDL is doing this for the flourishing of DS practice. And the fact that DS had advised HHDL to leave Tibet had caused Buddhism to spread greatly in the West. I really hope that DS practitioners can practice freely soon.
-
Let's not forget the prophecy of the Nechung temple - a door remains sealed awaiting for the day Nechung would become enlightened and would vacate the temple.
The sealed door would be opened to allow Dorje Shugden to enter and assume his rightful place as the King of Worldly Protectors.
It seems to me illogical that Nechung would be acting against Dorje Shugden, somehow together with the Dalai Lama.
Because of this:
1.
Why would Nechung offer the Nechung Temple to a "spirit" upon having achieved enlightenment?
where is the logic in this?
2.
Nechung was pivotal in creating conditions for Tulku Drakpa Gyaeltsen to arise as Dorje Shugden.
Why do that and then work against Dorje Shugden?
-
Let's not forget the prophecy of the Nechung temple - a door remains sealed awaiting for the day Nechung would become enlightened and would vacate the temple.
The sealed door would be opened to allow Dorje Shugden to enter and assume his rightful place as the King of Worldly Protectors.
It seems to me illogical that Nechung would be acting against Dorje Shugden, somehow together with the Dalai Lama.
Because of this:
1.
Why would Nechung offer the Nechung Temple to a "spirit" upon having achieved enlightenment?
where is the logic in this?
2.
Nechung was pivotal in creating conditions for Tulku Drakpa Gyaeltsen to arise as Dorje Shugden.
Why do that and then work against Dorje Shugden?
You have proposed some very interesting statements/questions. If HHTDL has placed a ban on the practising of Dorje Shugden, how is it any different from seeking Nechung for consultation. It does not sound logical that Nechung would act against Dorje Shugden.
I believe that this is the work of HHTDL that to spread something as bad news, spreads faster, than it does for good news. Hearing the name Dorje Shugden would spread far and wide throughout the world, and as one day the Ban would be lifted, the impact of Dorje Shugden would be stronger in implanting the seed into peoples minds.
I cannot wait to see all the Dorje Shugden's practitioners be able to practice openly.
-
You have proposed some very interesting statements/questions. If HHTDL has placed a ban on the practising of Dorje Shugden, how is it any different from seeking Nechung for consultation. It does not sound logical that Nechung would act against Dorje Shugden.
I believe that this is the work of HHTDL that to spread something as bad news, spreads faster, than it does for good news. Hearing the name Dorje Shugden would spread far and wide throughout the world, and as one day the Ban would be lifted, the impact of Dorje Shugden would be stronger in implanting the seed into peoples minds.
I cannot wait to see all the Dorje Shugden's practitioners be able to practice openly.
This is totally true as people tend to be more curious on controversies and therefore will make the Dorje Shugden practice spread faster and wider.
-
Infamy does spread anything much faster than just being famous.
Without the ban this website would not have been created, many new methods to share Dorje Shugden would not have been generated and Dorje Shudgen may not even spread to Thailand for that matter. A seemingly mundane action by the Dalai Lama, the ban can create so much benefit! The Dalai Lama Is Avalokiteshvara!
-
In my opinion, the Dalai Lama is Avaloketishvara.
On that note, yes, he may consult Nechung, however I do believe that since the Dalai Lama has the attained clairvoyance to see many lifetimes into the future, he doesn't actually rely on Nechung.
It seems like it's all part of the fiasco. Why? If the Dalai Lama is not Avaloketishvara, he is still not a silly man. No one would say, "Don't rely on spirits", and have the state oracle take trance of a subdued spirit! :P
If he did believe in Nechung's words, he would have followed Nechung's advice in 1959 to stay in Tibet during the Chinese Invasion. Instead, he followed Dorje Shugden's, which told him to leave now - and thereafter, described the way out of Tibet. This was only in addition to Dorje Shugden's previous instruction of forming the guerrilla group, Chushi Gangdruk which safeguarded the Dalai Lama onto Indian territory.
Nechung's track record of divination's hasn't been too accurate either. Not only did Nechung almost 'cost' the Dalai's Lama's life, but his continuous prophesy of how Tibetan's would see a speedy return to a free Tibet, has yet to come true.
Then, there comes the blame game.
So much drama. But without drama, can the Dharma grow in this day and age? :P
-
In my opinion, the Dalai Lama is just doing this to appease some people who are superstitious as well, he is the Dalai Lama. Does he need predictions given to him by some mountain goddess? I dont think so. How can Chenrezig, or even a monk, need predictions from a samsaric deity? So the best explaination would be that it is just an act to keep the CTA and the Tibetans happy and quiet.
-
"I am not wishing for Dalai Lama to pass away but it is inevitable. I agree with you, after his passing, his succesor will have very little poltical weight and therefore very little power. Then the many Tulkus and Geshes being trained up now will become very instrumental to bring this practice to many. The high profile Tulkus will be very powerful of course, but in today's world, if you have knowledge and can speak, then the internet (perhaps media) will make you into a high powered person/Tulku/Geshe/teacher/etc to bring Shugden's practice to many. Very different than before.
That day where the Shugden issue resolves is not far away. Not far away at all."
The above statement was by a contributor to this article dated 26 November 2011. Is this a prophecy and the end of the ban is very very near? I feel so. What about you?
-
to look at the whole issue differently, i think without the ban that Dalai Lama enforce on Dorje Shugden, Tibetan Buddhism, Gelugpa in particular would not have set foot in so many countries. I believe the ban has create noise level around the world that everyone knows and heard about the issue, it might have brought some thing new to those who have not come across Tibetan Buddhism, and at the same time some may have experience the benefit of Dorje Shugden.
-
I find this post quite interesting. The Dalai Lama advised against worshipping Dorje Shugden as he was a spirit but yet he worshipping Nechung... It does not make any sense at all.. Why is it that the Dalai Lama can worship a spirit but others can't?
Here are some things that most people should know, Nechung is an unenlightened Dharma protector, he was oath bound to protect the Dharma by Guru Rinpoche, Dorje Shugden(also called Dholgyal which translates to 'spirit of Dho') is a fully enlightened Dharma protector who has proven his worth to many hundreds of high lama's and lay people alike. I now appeal to your common sense to figure out who is the person in the wrong here.
I really hope that the Dalai Lama and the CTA can stop being a hypocrite and bring down the ban for good. _/\_
-
Thank you for reviving this interesting old post. I have no doubt that the Dalai Lama is the emanation of Avalokiteshvara (Chenrezig) and his consulting Nechung is just to create an opportunity for Nechung to serve and create merits.
But I also hope that the Dalai Lama will clarify his contradictory statements about Dorje Shugden as it will clear a lot of confusion and eliminate a lot of sufferings.
-
I wonder why Dalai Lama wants to consult the Nechung oracle who has been under the influence of an evil spirit instead of Nechung/Pehar which is causing much mischief and problems for the Tibetan people. Why Dalai Lama does not want to consult Dorje Shugden oracle since Nechung has a history of making unreliable, inaccurate and plain-out wrong pronouncements and prophecies? Dalai Lama himself should be able to make wise decisions on who to consult with when he has problems. It is very clear that Dorje Shugden is much better than Nechung. I really don't know what Dalai Lama is thinking and doing.
-
For such a long time the Dalai Lama has listened to Nechung yet the promises Nechung did, have not manifested. So, isn't it obvious that there must be another decision?
I doubt not the qualities of the Dalai Lama but I wonder why he continues to listen to Nechung after such a long time when there is no indication that Nechung will fulfill the wishes of all Tibetans, to go home to Tibet.
-
Hello Belinda Mae
The spirit that interferes with the Nechung Oracle is Nyatrul aka Nyari Tulku.
H.E. Tsem Tulku did a large article on him at http://www.tsemrinpoche.com/tsem-tulku-rinpoche/dorje-shugden/the-spirit-nyatrul-magic-mischief-and-misery.html. (http://www.tsemrinpoche.com/tsem-tulku-rinpoche/dorje-shugden/the-spirit-nyatrul-magic-mischief-and-misery.html.)
He states that Nyari Tulku was "Murdered" (1899) by the 13th Dalai Lama and his Government and returned as a spirit to seek his revenge.
Nyari Tulku was falsely accused of trying to murder the 13th Dalai Lama and he believes that the Nechung gave a false trance that ultimately resulted in his murder.
It is claimed that the spirit Nyatrul took trance of the Nechung in 1933 and he gave the 13th Dalai Lama the wrong medicine on purpose.
That medicine caused his death.
So Nyatrul got revenge against the 13th Dalai Lama by murdering him.
It is also claimed in Tsem Tulku's article that it was Nyatrul that has caused the Dorje Shugden ban.
Some believe that in 1902 Nyatrul took trance of the Nechung who told the 13th Dalai Lama to fight the British army that had invaded Tibet.
The Nechung claimed that they would have a great victory.
He was wrong and Col. Younghouse who lead the British Army killed 800 Tibetan soldiers in only a few hours.
So who really is the 14th Dalai seeking his advise from?
Is it the Nechung Oracle or is it Nyari Tulku (Nyatrul) the Tulku that he ordered "Murdered"?
-
Sorry to every one but my link to Tsem Tulku's ariticle on Nyatrul does connect.
Just google "the spirit Nyatrul" and you will find the article.
-
If H.E. Tsem Tulku is right then Nyari Tulku (Nyatrul) has the power to enter into the Nechung Oracle at will.
If Nyari Tulku can enter the number one State Oracle can he also enter into other State Oracles at will?
The answer may be yes.
The Gadong Oracle is the number two State Oracle.
The previous Gadong Oracle was a State Oracle from roughly 1986 until his death in 2015.
He took trance of the Dharmapala "Shinjachen".
This is a family lineage of "Oracles" and since his death in 2015 "Shinjachen" has not taken trance of any male member of the "Gadong" clan.
During all those years as the number two State Oracle he never spoke while in trance.
No one knew why he never spoke but could it have been Nyari Tulku (Nyatrul) stopping him from doing so?
The number three State Oracle was the Lamo Tsangpa Oracle who took trance of the Dharmapala "Tsangpa Karpo".
The previous "Lamo Tsangpa" Oracle was the Oracle from roughly 1988 until his death in 2003.
The "Lamo Tsangpa" is also a family lineage of Oracles.
Since his death the Dharmapala "Tsangpa Karpo" has not chosen any male member as the next "Lamo Tsangpa" Oracle.
In the mid 1990's he supposedly took trance on two occasions and condemned "Dorje Shugden".
This is now highly suspect since "Tsangpa Karpo" is the "Peaceful Emanation of the Dharmapala Setrap Chen".
How could "Tsangpa Karpo" publicly condemn "Dorje Shugden" when it was "Setrap Chen" who saved "Dorje Shugden" from death in a "Fire Puja".
The very same "Setrap Chen" who lead "Dorje Shugden" to the Sakya who made him a member of the Dharmpala "Gyalpo Sum".
The "Gyalpo Sum" (the Three Kings) who are made up of Setrap Chen, Tsiu Marpo (Kache Marpo) and Dorje Shugden.
Was it in fact "Tsangpa Karpo" who entered into the Lamo Tsangpa Oracle or was it in fact Nyari Tulku (Nyatrul).
Does Nyari Tulku (Nyatrul) have the power to enter into the "Three State Oracles of Tibet" at will?
What is the "Black Karma" one possesses when they "Murder" a Tulku like Nyari Tulku?
What is the "Black Karma" one possesses when they also "Murder" another Tulku like His Holiness Demo Tulku?
His Holiness Demo Tulku and Nyari Tulku were both "Murdered" on orders of the 13th Dalai Lama and his Government.
In His Eminence Tsem Tulku's article on Nyari Tulku (Nyatrul) it states that he was an "Innocent" man who was "Murdered" and arose as a "Wrathful Spirit" to seek revenge against the Dalai Lama and his Government.
Does Nyari Tulku (Nyatrul) continue seeking his "Revenge" to this very day?
-
There are two in depth articles on this very website about the Gadong Oracle and the Lamo Tsangpa Oracle.
1) google, "Was the previous Lamo Tsangpa Oracle corrupt?" (June 27,2016).
2) google, "The Previous Gadong Oracle was never a true Oracle" (June 26,2016).