dorjeshugden.com
General Buddhism => General Buddhism => Topic started by: hope rainbow on October 12, 2011, 01:23:21 PM
-
Just yesterday, while driving, I was stopped by a policeman for speeding.
He was going to fine me when he started talking to me in a strange way, asking me: "do you really want to pay this fine, if I fill this form it will cost you over 100 Dollars and it will go into your file". He was bluntly giving me a chance to bribe him!
This is illegal and reprehensible for me as I can be charged for bribing a policeman and illegal for the policeman of course. Never before had I come across a policeman like that and I have been driving for over 20 years (and caught a few times speeding I reckon).
The country in which I live has better standards than that! I had never seen it before, I thought this only happens in some other countries, not at home...
At first, I thought I could not do that... But then, I got tempted to get away with the scheme, so I took my wallet and opened it and in it was a note of 20 Dollars and a few more of 1 Dollar. I took the 20 Dollars bill out and moved it discreetly towards my car door, out of sight.
Before I could see it happen, the policeman took it swiftly and said: "go now, and don't let me catch you speeding again".
I have two questions:
- is this stealing?
- and should I report the incident to the authorities? For if I don't, is it lying?
-
Just yesterday, while driving, I was stopped by a policeman for speeding.
He was going to fine me when he started talking to me in a strange way, asking me: "do you really want to pay this fine, if I fill this form it will cost you over 100 Dollars and it will go into your file". He was bluntly giving me a chance to bribe him!
This is illegal and reprehensible for me as I can be charged for bribing a policeman and illegal for the policeman of course. Never before had I come across a policeman like that and I have been driving for over 20 years (and caught a few times speeding I reckon).
The country in which I live has better standards than that! I had never seen it before, I thought this only happens in some other countries, not at home...
At first, I thought I could not do that... But then, I got tempted to get away with the scheme, so I took my wallet and opened it and in it was a note of 20 Dollars and a few more of 1 Dollar. I took the 20 Dollars bill out and moved it discreetly towards my car door, out of sight.
Before I could see it happen, the policeman took it swiftly and said: "go now, and don't let me catch you speeding again".
I have two questions:
- is this stealing?
- and should I report the incident to the authorities? For if I don't, is it lying?
Dear HR
With regards to stealing, I suppose you meant the act of the policeman receiving the "bribe". I feel it is 2 pronged. Firstly, you did give the lesser sum knowing it would save you from paying the larger amount. And the policeman, even though knowing full well he was misusing his authority, did "let you off" by accepting the lesser sum as his "payment". To me that is a business deal really. Nobody was hurt and it certainly did teach you a lessen in not speeding I suppose. So it turned out to be a win win situation for both parties involved. Sure there is that guilt factor you are contributing to so called "corruption" on a lesser scale but once again, no one was hurt so for me personally it is ok.
With regards to reporting... well, was he not the authority as well? Kinda strange how that works I know! I do not think you are lying if do not report. But being devil's advocate, I guess you are thinking in not reporting this person, perhaps his actions might escalate into something larger and more serious? Do you happen to have a badge number or name? If so perhaps you should but if not, there is really nothing you can report. However, sharing this on the forum does, to me, tell me you are a conscientious person and are actually thinking about the repercussions... So my advice is do not beat yourself up over it. :)
-
Thank you Positive Change, I do feel better somehow.
And I realized that my worries were more about me than about that policeman... Bloody self-cherishing!
-
Sorry, HR, but my take is that in this act of bribing, there was harm entailed.
First, the harm to yourself is that ,by paying the bribe money, you have already made it easier for you to do it again the next time and the next time. Hence it will mean increasing your tendency to act irresponsibly and to try and escape from the pain of punishment/fine of a big sum for speeding.Paying less, like in this case, won't act as a strong reminder and deterrent for you not to speed in the future and this might lead to harmful consequences of accidents to yourself and others.
As for the policeman, by paying him a bribe ,you are encouraging him to be corrupted and to go around collecting bribes from other people who will also be causing harm to themselves like above.
Finally, if you had paid the fine, you would not have to worry about committing the non-virtuous action of lying by not reporting the policeman to the authorities.
So my take is, to spare oneself from committing two non-virtues, it's better to pay the fine! Sorry HR. I may be a bit too 'far-fetched' in my argument above.
-
From my experience, policemen that have the habit of collecting bribes are normally in countries where the police force is poorly paid. Hence the need to carry out such an action. It is normally more of a headache for the police officer if a case of bribery is reported. So maybe if you were to give the police officer a bribe, you may be helping him relieve some of his financial burdens. But on the other hand, contributing to corruption in any scale is not a good thing.
Maybe if you are able to pay the summon, you should. If you are financially strapped, it may be better to accept the option of bribing the police officer.
I normally accept the summon and appeal to have the summon reduced. I am under the impression that the summons are used to cover the expenses of the police force anyways. But perhaps the best solution is not to break the law.
Thanks for having such an interesting topic to discuss upon. :)
-
In my opinion, bribing is a non-virtuous act. When we speed, we have gone against the law. When we are stopped by a policeman, we have to face the consequences and pay the fine instead of bribing the policeman. Laws of the country are made to create a better and safer place for us to be. If everyone break the laws and bribe the authorities concerned, then there will be havoc all around us. Also indirectly we are creating negative karma for the policeman as accepting bribe is illegal. So the best solution is do not break the law. If you do, pay up the fine and learn from that mistake.
-
Well, though PA made me feel better about it, I must agree with all others, bribing is not the virtuous thing to do, especially so if it is to escape a speeding fine.
I'll be wiser if I ever encounter this situation again.
Thank you forum people.
-
Dear HR,
Bribing the police and having gotten away with the fine is like getting a temporary reprieve from the result of our negative action. The negative result will finally catch up and we might end up paying more than the monetary fine .
Traffic fines are meant to deter us from driving dangerously which will cause danger to others and ourselves. If we feel happy that we got away from paying the fine by bribery, we are really short sighted "sigh"
Am glad you finally see the wisdom of paying the fine and be more mindful of your driving speed ;)
-
I wished more people would see the long term view of the results of bribery... i never condoned the act of bribery to get out of a sticky traffic situation, especially if we are in the wrong. whenever this topic crops up my friends would ridicule me and say "things are like this in this country, you will never be able to stop it (bribery and corruption)". But is is precisely because of this mentality going around that bribery and corruption is so difficult to be eradicated! always thinking of short term convenience for oneself rather than long term benefit for the whole country.
another argument for bribery i have been told was "the policeman is paid poorly by the government, not much of the summon you pay will go to them. you are doing them a favour by giving them a bribe directly. they are desperate people". oh my Buddha... then giving them a bribe is encouraging them to engage in wrong livelihood... there is no win-win for bribery in Buddhism or secular world.
-
Yes, it is stealing from the government and benefitting the policeman and yourself. Also, encouraging a wrong livelihood. Whatever it is there is no justification for this.
Personally, I will talk my way out of the ticket if I have good reasons but if I really break the law I can only ask for a chance. I have manage this a few times. Do not insult the policeman in any way. Ot course, I got ticketed also sometimes in 20 years of driving, so just go appeal for the best discount if any and pay the fine.
-
speed limit is just a guiding principle. car racing is made legal as well. in buddhism, there is no unwise karma related against the law for this instance so long as it was not intentionally causing harm. Even driving at a moderate speed will cause life and lifetime injury as well. so be relax on this aspect. it also depends on where you have to contribute the summon. if very far away, do you want to bother yourself and them. unless the payment is very conveniently and condusively situated.
-
Bribing is worse than stealing as it encourages another to spread the disease of wrong livelihood.Ultimately it is the us who will lose. An example: More accidents will happen due to drivers getting away which lead to costly repairs to man and machine, traffic jams and downtime.This escalates insurance costs.
If the law requires us to report, then we break the law if we don't. If there are no such laws in force, not reporting a corrupted officer means we are not doing anything to stop bad people from doing bad things.This still attracts negative karma due to our ignorance thinking we are not causing harm directly.
-
I always believe that nothing is a coincidence. Everyday we are faced with situations that train us to make the right decision and to do the right thing. Being caught with speeding and the decision of whether to pay the fine or to bribe your way out is one of those.
By bribing the policeman we have 'sinned' and added on our 'impurities'. Having done something against the law and pay a fine for it is part of financial cleansing or financial purification. Therefore, if we pay a bribe instead of the fine we are differing the purification process and would end up having to deal with a bigger purification at a later date.
Hence, it is better to accept the fine with gratitude and be thankful that it is the fine that you are getting and not some nasty accident because of speeding.
-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bribery
The forms that bribery take are numerous. For example, a motorist might bribe a police officer not to issue a ticket for speeding, a citizen seeking paperwork or utility line connections might bribe a functionary for faster service.
I am sure most of us at one time or another had given in to this rather simple act of paying our way out of a rather unwanted situation. For example - bribing the policeman would have saved a lot of hassle of going to the police station to clear your traffic offence.
In all reality, I would gather that most people would pay our way and have done it before.
To answer HR :
- if you had offered the bribe to the policeman and he had taken, you would be just as guilty of committing the offence.
- this may be considered stealing in the context that the government is deprived of its income?
-
For the policeman, he steal the money as the money should be paid by fine and it go towards the police organization to develop it organize and benefit the citizen in country in return but because of bribing it go to his own pocket for his own use.
For the person who bribing is not stealing but we do the wrong action and of course it create the negative karma, how heavy of the karma depend on our motivation and action and what we feel after bribing.
-
A bribe is something of value offered, given or solicited to influence a person in a position of responsibility to act contrary to his or her duty. The giving or receiving of bribes often means breaking the second and the fourth Precepts and always involves cheating, greed, injustice and law-breaking.
When you beat the traffic law, you are supposed to pay for the fine, because that’s what the law is for. So when we try to get the easy out by bribing the police officers, then we are no different than cheating, we are cheating the law of traffic. By doing this, you are actually creating the cause for you to do the second time, the third time and so on.
In fact, if the police officers are asking money from you, or giving you hint for bribing, that’s enough for you to launch the report towards the police officers. By paying him money, it actually encourages him to do it to other people in the future and such action will create a continuous act of bribery.
-
Of course it is stealing, it is stealing from the Government. Revenue from summonses or fines forms a large percentage of the police department"s income which is meant to finance its operation.
Who is stealing then ? The police officer or the "offender" ? Of course it is the police officer accepting the bribe who is stealing from his employer and the person giving the bribe is the accomplice. Either way both parties are guilty of this corrupt act and that is why it is punishable by the law.
From a buddhist perspective it is also it is wrong to both give and accept bribes or corruption for obviuos reasons.
-
I agree with Carpenter. One should not bribe anyone as it is negative karma for the both of you. To manipulate each other and giving to the police what is not his is definitely stealing from the government.
In every country, there are laws and yes there are definitely corrupted people. But for someone who understands the teachings should not do such a thing. It is our fault that we broke the law and we should have responsibility for it. Or else its the same as having the law and having the teachings. We know it but we disobey it. You are also creating the karma for the police to think that it is right and he should keep on doing it and we both know that it will be carried on into his future lives to cheat and the consequences of it.
Well, what is done is done now. One must refrain from harming others just because we want to take advantage of it. ;D
-
I agree with Carpenter. One should not bribe anyone as it is negative karma for the both of you. To manipulate each other and giving to the police what is not his is definitely stealing from the government.
In every country, there are laws and yes there are definitely corrupted people. But for someone who understands the teachings should not do such a thing. It is our fault that we broke the law and we should have responsibility for it. Or else its the same as having the law and having the teachings. We know it but we disobey it. You are also creating the karma for the police to think that it is right and he should keep on doing it and we both know that it will be carried on into his future lives to cheat and the consequences of it.
Well, what is done is done now. One must refrain from harming others just because we want to take advantage of it. ;D
In this case, we are discussing about bribing a small sum to a policeman. What about situations where the bribe is much much larger as it calls for a special favor? There are countries where corruption is so rampant, it's practically a way of life.
What if there is a sense of urgency and you really need that special favor? Would you "bribe" your way through rather than have to wait ages to get your approval? What if it is an approval to start a project? If there is a delay, it would cost you a huge loss.
What would be the level of their negative karma?
-
In this case, we are discussing about bribing a small sum to a policeman. What about situations where the bribe is much much larger as it calls for a special favor? There are countries where corruption is so rampant, it's practically a way of life.
What if there is a sense of urgency and you really need that special favor? Would you "bribe" your way through rather than have to wait ages to get your approval? What if it is an approval to start a project? If there is a delay, it would cost you a huge loss.
What would be the level of their negative karma?
Well Jessie, there are many levels of karma and I dare not say that I know. Its too bad that someone have the urgency for something to be done. One can always be nice and friendly to the officials knowing that one need help from them. Not everyone wants to be bribed. Come on, don't tell me you just found out you need to do a project just yesterday and want it to be approved in the next 3 days? ??? If the government in that country is that bad, I am sure the people will not expect the project to be done super fast knowing the way the government works. Or another way, trust and ask Dorje Shugden for help? ;D
-
Bribing isn't really cheating for me. It is more of like a cover up for the mistake we made. If we had followed by the law, we wouldn't even find ourselves into that kind of dilemma. This action, bribing as per mentioned can be categorized under cover up and it is a form of escape for people. You are creating negative karma for yourself to be able to runaway with mistakes without having to suffer some form of real punishment by making the shortcut to pay lesser in this sense. You are also creating a negative karma for the person who is accepting bribe because you made him/her cheat/lie so that you can getaway with it. In this sense, the bribe acceptor will be categorized as cheating. Please correct me if i am wrong.
-
You can see bribing in two ways. I have lived in several countries. When I lived in the country that is relatively clean, I went with the rules and paid my speeding tickets and due. But when I live in a country where no result will be obtained for the longest period unless you pay bribe/ stippend depending on how you look at it, I think it is ok.
I am giving you a practical example. A friend of mine live in a developing country. When a policeman caught her speeding, she refused to pay bribe. So she got speeding ticket. When she went to court to get her driving license back, she has to faced layers of buraucracy that require even more bribe if anything wants to get done. Not to mention that she lost a day’s work and her father scolded her for being stupid. It is much more practical just to pay on the spot and be done with this.
-
Now it made me think even further. Policeman or whatever officials taking bribe will be considered as stealing because the acceptor took the money for himself instead of helping the government/company collect the sum that the body is supposed or entitled to collect. And this is about cheating the people's money as many would be benefitted from the amount of fines earned from traffic tickets alone. So its cheating for sure.
-
Now it made me think even further. Policeman or whatever officials taking bribe will be considered as stealing because the acceptor took the money for himself instead of helping the government/company collect the sum that the body is supposed or entitled to collect. And this is about cheating the people's money as many would be benefitted from the amount of fines earned from traffic tickets alone. So its cheating for sure.
Dear Brian
The problem may not be so simple. As the person offering the money, we are also tempting the policemen to look the other way. We are acting like Mara. However, if we do not do so, we are facing more problems.
It requires the determination from the government to clean these types of issue or otherwise, everybody’s hands are tied. For us, it really depends on the motivation when we are doing the bribing/ or giving stipends