dorjeshugden.com
General Buddhism => General Buddhism => Topic started by: dsiluvu on August 04, 2011, 05:11:12 AM
-
What does it mean to surrender to your Guru and the Dharma? To what extend would you go?
We have read and probably know in theory from the many Dharma books that real surrender is basically letting go of one's ego, or one's entire body, speech and mind. To me that is a just an empty words if one does not realise it internally. We can say it and no matter how eloquently we put it, but are we in our daily affairs really doing it? Quite the opposite because if we did, we would not be where we are today, we would be attained by now.
However, we know this and if we really open up and let go, we know we can definitely make huge spiritual progress. And so why are we not doing it?
The reality is our egos are too huge and it will take a lot, if not many life times to chip it all away. But never the less we need to start, so for me I think the very first step would be to trust and follow whatever instructions given by the Guru.
E.g. If the Guru says give up on your business, then you should do it and trust it without a doubt. But how many of us could and would we put limits to our "surrendering"?
-
I think 'surrendering' starts with the mind instead of the body. Some think it's only about giving up their worldly possessions. But then again, surrendering in one's mind is not easy. It takes tested time spent under the tutelage of the Guru, who patiently and compassionately whittle away our negative habituated mind, making it pliable to be re molded into a positive one. The very fact that we are still here, having to fight with our desires like insecurities, laziness, selfishness, greed, lust, jealousy, anger, hatred, excessive wanton, etc is proof that we are still trapped in our own prison.
So where and how to begin? Start looking for a qualified Guru, observe him before taking refuge. Does that mean after taking refuge we don't ask but blindly follow? Yes, if our faith is very strong after following and learning from the Guru. Should we ask questions? Yes, if we truly don't know but ask to learn. No, if we have been given logical explanation and have agreed but still not doing or applying. Then it becomes a challenge.
High Lamas may test their students by asking them to give up, say, their house, car, wealth, family, etc. How and what the students answer would help the Lamas to further assist them. In some cases, the lamas may actually put into action what they asked from their students.
Yes, we must start today because tomorrow may not come.
-
I think 'surrendering' starts with the mind instead of the body. Some think it's only about giving up their worldly possessions. But then again, surrendering in one's mind is not easy. It takes tested time spent under the tutelage of the Guru, who patiently and compassionately whittle away our negative habituated mind, making it pliable to be re molded into a positive one. The very fact that we are still here, having to fight with our desires like insecurities, laziness, selfishness, greed, lust, jealousy, anger, hatred, excessive wanton, etc is proof that we are still trapped in our own prison.
So where and how to begin? Start looking for a qualified Guru, observe him before taking refuge. Does that mean after taking refuge we don't ask but blindly follow? Yes, if our faith is very strong after following and learning from the Guru. Should we ask questions? Yes, if we truly don't know but ask to learn. No, if we have been given logical explanation and have agreed but still not doing or applying. Then it becomes a challenge.
High Lamas may test their students by asking them to give up, say, their house, car, wealth, family, etc. How and what the students answer would help the Lamas to further assist them. In some cases, the lamas may actually put into action what they asked from their students.
Yes, we must start today because tomorrow may not come.
I agree with what you have said here Samayakeeper... It is true that surrendering of any sort starts from the mind. If we can "give up" our attachments from our minds, the rest is natural. Hence your example of how some High Lama's test their students by asking them to give up specific material attachments to see if they truly are trusting of his wishes.
I have heard of one such story whereby the Guru actually asked a student if she would buy him an expensive car... the student answered without question with an ever willing yes and this student was known to be rather prudent with her money. But eventually the Guru then said, "no need... I was merely testing you". That in itself was a cute example of "surrendering" or letting go and trusting your Guru's intructions.
-
I was just reading on Samdhong Rinpoche on another topic in this forum, and his extraordinary guru devotion, that is real surrender!
Samdhong Rinpoche did not give up a car or a business, he gave up his practice of Dorje Shugden (at least it appears so) out of guru devotion, and also, he gave up reputation as he has to face anger and resentment from most Dorje Shugden's practitioners, while he is himself a very strong devottee, more: an emanation of Dorje Shugden himself!
Incredibly inspiring guru devotion!
With time, all will see how much Samdhong Rinpoche has helped Dorje Shugden in this way.
So what are WE talking about? WE! When we find it hard to even surrender an attachment to smoking cigarettes... It's good to put things in perspective sometimes.
-
I feel that surrendering means we give our preoccupation with the Eight Worldly Concerns. When we truly surrender, we will find it easy to serve our Guru. We will become adaptable to change. Rather than working against our karma, we flow with our karma. When we surrender, we become our own master than being the slaves to our delusions - the three poisons.
-
I think real surrendering in relations to Guru devotion is practicing it with the Nine Attitudes:-
1. Be like an obedient son
- Act exactly in accordance with the guru's advice.
2. Even when maras, evil friends and the like
Try to split you from the guru,
Be like a vajra. Inseparable forever.
3. Whenever the guru gives you work,
No matter how heavy the burden,
Be like the earth. Bear it all.
4. When devoting yourself to the guru,
Whatever suffering occurs,
Be like a mountain. Immovable.
5. Even if you are given all the difficult tasks,
Be like the servant of a king
- Perform them with an undisturbed mind.
6. Abandon pride.
Be like a sweeper
- Hold yourself lower than the guru.
7. No matter how difficult or heavy the burden,
Be like a rope. Hold the guru's work with joy.
8. Even when the guru criticizes, provokes or ignores you,
Be like a faithful dog
- Never respond with anger.
9. Be like a boat
- Never be upset to come or go for the guru At any time.
I think this is real surrender and the recent example would be Samdhong Rinpoche and what he did with just one instruction from his Guru.
-
Well said Big Uncle.
It's not easy to put the Nine Attitudes into practice. However ,if we have checked out the guru and take him as our Guru because we are 100% convinced that his ultimate goal is to benefit us; then I should think the Surrendering would be "easier".
It's like how we surrendered to our parents' instructions when we were young. Some times what they asked us to do were so painfully against our wishes but we gave in grudgingly because we know - it's for our own good ! ;D
-
To me, surrendering starts from mind and action.
To surrender not only give up attachments from our minds, our actions to show our commitments and results show transformation.
-
Real surrender begins with the mind. Once, we have let go of criticism, resistance and pride (we think we know better), then the Lamas instructions will sink in and we get the blessing as we carry out the instructions happily. However, we don't let go of the aforementioned, than whatever we do, we do it grudgingly and the blessings will not come and most likely, the result of the instructions will not fall through, we give up halfway or we will meet with even more inner and outer obstacles because of the lack of merit. Hence, our Dharma practice will not bear fruit.
-
To me, surrendering starts from mind and action.
To surrender not only give up attachments from our minds, our actions to show our commitments and results show transformation.
I really like what you said RS. Surrendering begins from the mind, put into action by our change in attitude although it may be superficial in the beginning but it becomes real when it becomes natural to us. Giving up attachments is only part of the process of surrendering. Results showing transformation is the real measure. If we truly surrender to our guru and Dharma, we will put Dharma into practice and overcome all our obstacles. Consequently, transformation is a natural result.
-
To me, surrendering starts from mind and action.
To surrender not only give up attachments from our minds, our actions to show our commitments and results show transformation.
Yes surrendering starts from mind and putting that transformation into action which eventually leads to results.
-
Yes surrendering starts from mind and putting that transformation into action which eventually leads to results.
It sure does take faith as mentioned by quite a few in here..and transformation starts from the mind.
During challenging and tough times, I have experienced numerous set backs, and felt with much despair and disappointment that I have not progressed much at all in dealing with difficulties.
If surrendering is to start from the mind, then we need to work on the mind. We ought to reprogram/re-educate our minds so that it starts to view things differently to bring about a different action and result. Thus, studying and contemplating on the buddha dharma is so important
to help us build a strong foundation to even properly start to think why we would want to "surrender".
-
Yes, surrendering is surrendering our ego. Clinging to our ego is the root cause of our suffering. The best way of surrendering the ego is through the Practice of Guru Devotion.
As has been quoted above by BU, Guru Devotion entails our following all of our Guru's instructions no matter how difficult it is to do so, no matter what suffering it entails.
When we can train our mind to the level that it sees the Guru as a Buddha, then we will know that all of the worst, most difficult tasks given to us are given to cut the ego in us and to increase our selflessness. It is like a 'short cut' to transforming the mind from negative to positive.
Hence, we must fight our ego's resistance and go all the way to total surrender. Time is not on our side. We have only this precious human life which is fast running out. [(sigh) I wish and pray that I could keep this train of thought firmly in my mind.Why is it so daunting to do so? My ego rearing its ugly head as always].
-
Try the Eight Versus of Mind Transformation....it is a good way to start surrending our "ego' , try reading it on a daily basis, it helps because every single day, we will be able to practice any one of these eight versus.
-
Yes surrendering starts from mind and putting that transformation into action which eventually leads to results.
It sure does take faith as mentioned by quite a few in here..and transformation starts from the mind.
During challenging and tough times, I have experienced numerous set backs, and felt with much despair and disappointment that I have not progressed much at all in dealing with difficulties.
If surrendering is to start from the mind, then we need to work on the mind. We ought to reprogram/re-educate our minds so that it starts to view things differently to bring about a different action and result. Thus, studying and contemplating on the buddha dharma is so important
to help us build a strong foundation to even properly start to think why we would want to "surrender".
Yes it is not easy and it is challenging. But it is a path worth taking.
-
Surrendering starts from mind, by practicing EIGHT VERSES, will have tremendous transformation, I am working hard towards this.
-
Definitions of 'Surreder':
1a : to yield to the power, control, or possession of another upon compulsion or demand <surrendered the fort>
1b : to give up completely or agree to forgo especially in favor of another
2a : to give (oneself) up into the power of another especially as a prisoner
2b : to give (oneself) over to something (as an influence)
Mere scholarly definitions.
So in Buddhist terms, what does it mean to surrender?
To me, it may go to the extreme of renounciation, as you surrender everything that you have, to practise and carry on turning the wheel of Dharma with minimal distractions, or like what has been nicely explained on the other posts, to surrender one's mind to the Dharma. From surrendering our mind, our body and speech will transform accordingly; and you are on the path to practising the 8 verses of thought transformation and the 9 attitudes to guru devotion.
Labelling it as 'surrendering to the Dharma', I feel is more pervasive throughout Buddhism, as it encompasses all types and schools of Buddhism.
In Vajrayana, of course, 'surrending to your Guru', is I guess, one of the higher forms of offering you can do, because it shows that you have 100% conviction and faith in your guru. It is the Dharma that your guru brings to you; hence, ultimately you are surrending to the Dharma, but it is the methods in which your guru trains, guides and teaches you that you surrender to him. Whatever that is negatively inert in you, your guru will skillfully exploit that, and use it to train you, so you surrender your negative habituations with hopes of replacing it with positive ones. However, no matter how much we claim that we can surrender, most of us still have resistence. Samsara is suffering.
Yes, it is not easy to surrender, especially in today's society, the age of degenaration (kaligyuya). But I guess you have to stick a feet out and take it step by step - ultimately with resilience and faith, you will succeed and with the guidance of a guru, there's no way but up.
-
The Buddha never ask us to surrender anything other than the causes of suffering.
Once we let go of resistance to facing our faults, to improve due to elusions like pride etc, our mind becomes clear and it will open us to receive our Guru’s blessings. What we need to surrender are the negative emotions which disturb or afflict our mind.
The methods to do that is via practicing the 50 verses ( or condensed 9 attitudes ). For transformation knowledge alone is not enough. We need to feel our actions experientially.
Surrendering is not about following a Guru’s instructions like a puppet. That would be too simplistic and being lazy. It must have basis arising from correct faith and spiritual purpose.
-
Real surrender begins with the mind. Once, we have let go of criticism, resistance and pride (we think we know better), then the Lamas instructions will sink in and we get the blessing as we carry out the instructions happily. However, we don't let go of the aforementioned, than whatever we do, we do it grudgingly and the blessings will not come and most likely, the result of the instructions will not fall through, we give up halfway or we will meet with even more inner and outer obstacles because of the lack of merit. Hence, our Dharma practice will not bear fruit.
Yes i like what you said here, of course surrendering yourself to the Dharma is a given or else why become a buddhist in the first place, but to surrender to the Lama will be the most difficult of all to do.
We are habiual creatures with lifetimes of karma that clouds our vision that the only way to truly see what is in store for us is by our Lama putting us through different trials and tribulations.
Take Milarepa for example, building houses for his Guru then tearing them down to start over again. Or Tilopa with Naropa, having to steal delicious curry from the wedding banquet again and again. Maybe I am taking them out of context here but if we truly trust in the teachings of the Buddha, then quite logically wouldn't that mean we would have to completely trust in our Teacher who is right in front of us?
Big Uncle you said it nicely, if we do it grudgingly or look at it from our own perspective then yes we will not truly receive the blessings our Guru had in mind for us.
So to say surrender... is one thing.
But to truly surrender... only when you are put in the position to choose
will be another thing.
-
I agree with Big Uncle that Surrendering is in relation with practicing the Nine Attitudes.
One have full faith in their Guru no matter how difficult it is but the Guru instruction is the main priority and is the motivation of every single move.
There is no excuses for the obstacle arises to carry out the task but just to find the way of how to fulfill or accomplish the task given by the Guru.
I believe by having great Guru Samaya is the way to gain attainment & ultimately for enlightenment.
-
The Buddha never ask us to surrender anything other than the causes of suffering.
If we were 100% clear on that, then surrender would not even be at all, for there would be nothing left to surrender.
But we are not clear on that and still are confused about what are the causes of suffering and what are the causes of happiness.
This is why we call it surrender, like it is something "hard to let go of" hard "to give up."
"Surrender" here means that even though still in a state of mental confusion, we let go of our "instinctual" judgment about the causes of suffering or happiness and instead take a leap of faith by recognizing that a Buddha knows better than us on the subject.
Yep... faith and humility are essential to the act of surrender.
-
I think surrendering means letting go. In the context of guru devotion, it means surrendering ourselves to our guru and follow whatever our Guru says. This is important for our spirituality because when we truly understand that our Guru's main objective is to lead us towards Enlightenment, we will have the confidence to follow our Guru's instructions regardless of our fears. When this happens, attainments can be realised faster.
-
What does it mean to surrender to your Guru and the Dharma? To what extend would you go?
We have read and probably know in theory from the many Dharma books that real surrender is basically letting go of one's ego, or one's entire body, speech and mind. To me that is a just an empty words if one does not realise it internally. We can say it and no matter how eloquently we put it, but are we in our daily affairs really doing it? Quite the opposite because if we did, we would not be where we are today, we would be attained by now.
However, we know this and if we really open up and let go, we know we can definitely make huge spiritual progress. And so why are we not doing it?
The reality is our egos are too huge and it will take a lot, if not many life times to chip it all away. But never the less we need to start, so for me I think the very first step would be to trust and follow whatever instructions given by the Guru.
E.g. If the Guru says give up on your business, then you should do it and trust it without a doubt. But how many of us could and would we put limits to our "surrendering"?
I surrender to my Guru, for I know for sure that my Guru knows better than me.
Simple and deep surrender, key to achieve Guru devotion in practice.
I surrender to the Buddha, for I know for sure that Blessed One has led by example and has achieved full enlightenment.
I surrender to the Dharma, for I know for sure that the Dharma is correct when I am bias.
I surrender to my Sangha, for I know for sure that the Sangha is my only reliable friend.
I surrender to my Guru, for I know that he embodies the Buddha the Dharma and the Sangha.
-
I think surrendering encompasses all aspect of life.
First we surrender to the Guru, the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha Jewels.
We surrender to the realizations and the teachings of the the Lamrim. Abide by it.
Most importantly we surrender to our vows; whatever our vows are and abide by it 24/7.
-
Most importantly we surrender to our vows.
Thank you YJ, you have opened a new field of thoughts in my mind.
We surrender to our vows, that is wonderful!
We don't fight with them and run a battle everyday, we simply surrender to our vows, because they represent the better person that I can be.
We surrender to the potential that they have, in fact surrendering to our vows, is like surrendering to the Three Jewels, it has the same meaning for the aim is just the same.
-
Surrendering means giving up control. And so surrendering to our Guru is to give up:
(i) our comfortable mental environment which we have structured to maximize the sense of security for our fragile minds - this is our assumed knowledge that we based all decisions on, our perceptions of how things and people should be;
(ii) our emotional barriers i.e. not confronting situations that makes us feel ashamed, scared, insecure, unwanted, desperate. This may even be giving up what has previously made us "strong" i.e. our stubbornness;
(iii) our physical and environmental comfort zones - pushing our bodies physically and allowing to put into situations that we are not used to;
(iv) the primary goals of living for our own benefit and replacing it with another purpose that involve living to create benefits and wellbeing for others;
(v) seeing ourselves as having any value other than the value imputed upon us by the Guru;
(vi) everything that has previously made us "happy";
(vii) everything that has previously made us morose;
-
MEANING
The path of selflessness (enlightenment) is like a razor’s edge. If you fall left or right, into the abyss of dualism, good and bad, you turn from a Buddha into ten thousand devils… one of the great Zen masters has been quoted to this extent.
MOTIVATION
Lord Atisha was asked about what those will get who practice for worldly – selfish – aims only; his answer was that they will get what they want. When further asked what the future life result of such practice will be, his answer consisted of merely three words:” Hell, hungry ghost, animal.”
METHOD
All of the Buddha’s 84.000 methods aim to destroy self-grasping and self-cherishing. Reaching out with compassion and reaching in through wisdom realizing emptiness.
MIDDLE WAY
In a nutshell’s nutshell, the middle way is the harmony of emptiness – the ultimate nature of everything, and dependent arising – the appearance of everything. As Je Tsongkhapa pointed out, unless grasping at even the most subtle concept of inherent existence is overcome, enlightenment can not happen, which has been misunderstood as nihilism.
Therefore –
MEANING is the result of MOTIVATION and METHOD.
In the discussion about Dorje Shugden, some nihilists argue that since nothing exists inherently, why worry if he’s good or bad, while some eternalists say he truly exists, and argue whether he is enlightened or a demon. Yet, wouldn’t it be more interesting and revealing if we applied the same principles of emptiness/dependent arising, which also clearly include us – our motivation and method – to arrive at a view that will help us on?
The foundation of our practice, and the view with which we perform it – or in other words, our motivation and our understanding of its meaning, these are crucial factors to the results attained, and in a way even more important than the method used. Many great masters have therefore said that the preliminaries are more important than the main practice… quantum physics (Bohm etc) have proven that there’s no such thing as a neutral observer… we, our karmic disposition, arise simultaneously with whatever ‘we’ experience, and cannot be extricated from this whole, this conglomerate of cause-and-effect strands that are continuously weaving the tapestry of here-and-now.
The MEANING of something is derived from MOTIVATION and METHOD; yet the METHOD is influenced by understanding its MEANING and MOTIVATION, which in turn increases or decreases with our present METHOD that hopefully penetrates deeper into the MEANING…
-
We can only surrender if we have faith.
Why do we surrender?
Because we have faith in the object of our surrender.
The object of our surrender is not ME.
And so we surrender a mind that has faith in "ME" to a mind that has faith in the object of our surrender.
When I go see a doctor, I surrender to my doctor's qualities, and I follow my doctor's instructions.
Same with the Buddha/Dharma/Sangha or our Guru (who embodies all three).
Do we surrender? Or do we think we can be happier being our own Teacher?
We can only surrender if we have faith.
-
As we know surrender to one guru, it bring a very supreme benefit such as enlightenment to oneself. Even though we know it but how many of us can do it, if we can then we won't be around here any more but why there are so many high lamas who has surrendered out there so it is possible to surrender but what is the main factor of it.
For me, because of my negative and stubborn mind that pull me out to not be surrender even know the benefit. But for those mind which stable and has been control and discipline therefore able to surrender.. so if i also train and control and discipline my mind then i should be able to surrender too.
one of example : everyone know that eat junk food, drink soft drink, sweet things etc we will get fat but how many of us have discipline in our diet and avoid all that junk food and really eat only healthy food which the result we are fat and not healthy.. i know it not easy but i believe it can be changed once we has wisdom mind.
-
When you take refuge to a Guru, we surrender our life to our Guru.
Surrendering in Buddhism have deeper meaning than only give up your worldly things such as business and job? it also includes our self grasping and attitude towards others.
The self grasping and selfishness are the qualities in us which keep us in samsara. The Guru's job is to break all that qualities and bring us to enlightenment.
Giving up self grasping and selfishness is the most difficult part that anyother physical attachment as it's like part of us, like our flesh already since this quality follow us from life to life. We must remove it! It's tough, but we must believe that by removing them, we will become a better person to absorb more Dharma for others!!
-
Surrending in dharma means you give up your attachment and desire and give full force in dharma work. Realize the meaning of dharma and go all the way, no matter how difficult it is, never give up dharma. Let go is another issue, how many of us can really let go and have a pure mind without any negative emotions indulge in it?
Surrending is also when you get disappointed and from there you learn. Face your own problem and think a solution to deal with it. Surrending also means you've tried all sort of methods but you just cannot figure out the answer.
-
Surrending to the guru is giving up one's ego and attachments. It means letting go of all our neuroses and start a journey of basic sanity. Remembering that the guru is the doctor and we are the patient. Surrendering means just that, the wish to be "whole" (sain) and safe. Surrending is seeking protection from the guru, especially protection from fear at the time of death.
When we prostrate to the guru, we are actually surrendering. In our mind, we can say that we are surrendering, for example "I surrender to Guru". And when we get up, we should have the mind that wishes to benefit others. We should ask for the guru's blessings to benefit others.
Why do we want to surrender to the guru? Because he is the source of all our happiness. By following the guru's example, we can learn to achieve the same qualities and benefit others.
-
Surrendering in dharma means to give up all your attachments by way of body, speech and mind. We have to change our thinking and transform it into a positive attitude with the thought of others - though it is much easier said than done. Then we have to put our good thoughts into action - by watching our speech and body language.
Surrendering is not giving up - giving up is calling it quits; the end; finito. Surrendering is when you realise that what you have held on to for so long is not going to benefit you, when you realise all the material things in this world are just temporary.
-
To me Surrendering means we have to surrender to our guru by Practising Guru Devotion with the Nine Attitudes and the Eight Verses of Mind Transformation, this will eventually help us to letting go of everything and become selfless for the sake of all sentient beings.
-
To me surrendering means we have to surrender to our Guru by Practising Guru Devotion with the Nine Attitudes and the Eight Verses of Mind Transformation, this will help us to eventually to letting go of everything and become selfless for the sake of all sentient beings.
-
Surrendering ourselves does not mean giving up everything and becoming a monk. I believe that there are much more to SURRENDERING!
One way of surrendering here can also mean mind transformation. To be able to accept what our Guru tells us to do and trust completely. If my Guru tells me that I need to give up my secular job and do Dharma all the way, I will believe, accept and have complete trust in my Guru for He and my Protector is ONE!
That will be my way of Surrendering to my Guru, Buddha, Dharma and Sangha.
-
This is what I must surrender:
- that I know better
- that I want it my way
- that it is "my way or the highway"
- that "I have heard it before"
- that I could be somewhere else instead of this class or puja
- that I dislike that monk in the monastery, I won't share a task with him
- that "I don't like to be talked on that tone"
- that I will help all sentient beings, but on my terms
- that I love all sentient beings except that "person"
- that I have compassion towards all sentient beings except chicken, cows and seafood
- that I am the judge of who's been kind enough to deserve my compassion
- that I'll give everything to Dharma but only from my surplus
- that I won't do "that", what would people think of me?
The list is unfortunately endless.
-
Definition according to the words of a dictionary : (surrender to) abandon oneself entirely to (a powerful emotion or influence); give in to: he was surprised that Miriam should surrender to this sort of jealousy | he surrendered himself to the mood of the hills.
Dharma is our subject what we surrender to, because it would bring us more benefits for lifetimes than we think we know of. Buddhism is a gentle religion where equality, justice and peace reign supreme. To depend on others for salvation is negative, but to depend on oneself is positive. Dependence on others means surrendering one's intelligence and efforts.