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About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: beggar on July 24, 2011, 10:36:32 AM

Title: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: beggar on July 24, 2011, 10:36:32 AM
Hey everyone, I just saw there's a couple of new videos up on the video section (here http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?cat=8)

There's one that's specially interesting, a new speech by Samdhong Rinpoche. I don't know how to embed the video in here directly but i urge everyone to please go and have a look at the video here and come back to discuss: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=8656

What a turn of perspective. I have also been very guilty of thinking how "bad" Samdhong Rinpoche has been for upholding the ban and allowing all this suffering for DS practitioners. He has gotten so much slack and bad press for all his policies and actions regarding Tibet's relations with China, with the ban, with Tibetan independence etc Now we see how everything he has done (no matter how bad WE THINK it seems on the outside) has been an expression of his total devotion to his teacher, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. How compassionate these lamas are to suffer so much purely with the motivation of helping others.

He is daring and courageous for making this speech, which does infer that he wasn't serving the Dalai Lama directly but doing it as a fulfilment of his commitments to his own root guru. But it is also said with much humility and such deep reverence for his teacher. It is very simple yet deeply profound guru devotion, like the masters of old who allowed themselves to go through so much difficulty just to serve their teachers and fulfil their dharma instructions.

I don't think Trijang Rinpoche would have been so stupid to advice his own student to "give up everything", including the very practices he conferred to him. I also don't think Dalai Lama is so stupid as to not know all this. I think more and more, with evidence like this, that there must be some bigger reason for this.

Also, the commentary under the video explains that Samdhong Rinpoche is recognised as a Shugden incarnation! I did not know this. If this is in fact true, it wouldn't be logical that Shugden would be out there "destroying" his own practice. In fact, we think instead of how compassionate he is that he would allow himself to go through so much negativity and difficulties, destroying "himself", and having so many people hate him - both tibetans and non-tibetans. Why would a high lama - a supreme incarnation of Shugden himself! - be doing all this if not to create some benefit for others??

There is a lot of connections to be made here - especially with Trijang Rinpoche, who is known to have prophesised the current conflict and who has been instrumental in teaching so many of the greatest lamas, passing on almost all the practices we are still doing today. Trijang Rinpoche has advised us in his texts, as a prophecy, not to take sides in what may seem like an outward conflict, but to be patient and things will be okay. Now, we learn that he has advised one of the most key people in the Tibetan Govt in exile to sacrifice and give up everything to serve the very govt that all of us now criticise. Samdhong Rinpoche is outwardly seemingly "destroying" DS practice by the advice of his teacher - is this contradictory? Perhaps not quite...  So much can be linked back to the ban being not just a ban but as something meant to bring this protector further up, make him greater, fan the fires for something huge to arise.
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: WisdomBeing on July 24, 2011, 03:03:14 PM
I'm completely gobsmacked.

Total respect to Samdhong Rinpoche for such Guru Devotion and being so humble and candid about it. Do watch the video - there's a few slides of the English translation of what Samdhong Rinpoche is saying.

The fact that HH Trijang Rinpoche told Samdhong Rinpoche to follow HH Dalai Lama without question and that Samdhong Rinpoche did fully, shows that HH Trijang Rinpoche must have known that Samdhong Rinpoche would have had to denounce Dorje Shugden. Yet Trijang Rinpoche instructed it. This is another piece of the "Bigger Picture" puzzle, which says that the ban on Shugden must be for a greater reason.

This speech explains why Samdhong Rinpoche, who was known for doing huge Shugden pujas at the monastery, suddenly did an about turn and condemn Shugden. He was merely following his Guru's instruction - above everything else.

Thank you for sharing this video and the translation.
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: DSFriend on July 24, 2011, 03:55:09 PM
What a powerful teaching on guru devotion by Samdhong Rinpoche. Who would have guest, that this seemingly political figure, who "carried out" the instructions of HHDL was actually serving his root master.

Samdhong Rinpoche displayed such complete faith and honesty. If he wanted to be on the good side of HHDL and played politics, then revealing his true intention would have defeated his objectives. My respect to Samdhong Rinpoche for not being affected by being in position of power but kept his word of honour to his guru.

I am quite sure that we will continue to see such twist and turns in the near future from other seemingly people from HHDL's camp. It is hard to believe that Samdhong Rinpoche is the only one with such motivation.

So the big question is, if HHDL is so bad, why would Samdhong Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche go all out to support HHDL? Are they right or wrong,....or are we the ones not seeing the whole HHDL Dorje Shugden play correctly?

As we watch the play, it is truly best to keep Trijang Rinpoche's advice to not take sides!
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: Big Uncle on July 24, 2011, 08:31:49 PM
Wow! Dorje Shugden compassionately emanates as a Lama who would be placed to assist the Dalai Lama to ban himself! I am not clairvoyant to see if he is or not but Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and Gangchen Rinpoche definitely are clairvoyant to see this. However, his powerful and honest Guru devotion amidst his own obvious faith in Dorje Shugden is painfully obvious.

He toiled in silence as so many people have hurled nasty remarks about him and he still does everything so convincingly. His devotional qualities can only be of how Dorje Shugden would have been in the form of a Lama. His pure Guru devotion would mean that the ban he had worked so hard will be a blessing. It will have the effect that will spread Dorje Shugden practice farther and wider because it was born out of pure Guru devotion regardless of how it may have appeared in the past. Alas, we have discovered another disguised hero of Dorje Shugden, a hero we mistook for a villain. How degenerate our times are!
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: Helena on July 25, 2011, 01:42:57 PM
OMG! OMG! OMG!

This is the first time that Samdhong Rinpoche's speech has brought tears to my eyes.
It is very clear indeed where his loyalties lie and how deeply devoted he is to His Guru, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche.

The following words from his speech truly MOVED me immensely - source: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=8656

Samdhong Rinpoche also said:

1. A person who has entered the Mahayana must serve the guru by body speech and mind according to the 9 attitudes of Guru Devotion. One has offered one’s body, speech and mind to the guru, so one must fulfill the instructions of one’s lama all the way. You do not ‘own’ your body, speech and mind anymore.

2. Also never  say you cannot do it before you even started the work; instead, you should do it and complete the job well and then say you cannot do it. The point? Just do what you have been instructed by the teacher.

What Samdhong Rinpoche says here infers clearly he is not doing any work for the Dalai Lama in actuality but only to fulfill the orders of his root guru Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. Powerful guru devotion.

It makes sense. If Samdhong Rinpoche ‘was’ a great practitioner of Shugden and he gave up Shugden to work for the Dalai Lama, then he IS following the instructions of his lama, contrary to popular criticisms.

During the opening of Shar Gaden Monastery in South India in 2010, a senior monk Geshe Konchok Gyeltsen mentioned clearly that the previous Trijang Rinpoche had openly and decisively confirmed that Samdhong Rinpoche is an incarnation of Dorje Shugden. His Eminence Gangchen Rinpoche further confirms this.

This video shows clearly where Samdhong Rinpoche’s loyalties lie.


Everyone should read this whole speech and take the time to ponder about the BIGGER PICTURE theory.
This is another proof that we do not know what truly goes on behind the scenes and what has been communicated between Guru and disciple.
The Gurus such as Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche obviously has some bigger plans in mind by giving special specific instructions to different students.
Everyone of us as students has a role to play and if we really adhere to our Guru's advice, we'll not give up.
We will carry out every instruction and duty to the best of our ability because every act create causes for something much bigger to take place.

I am very happy to witness this in my lifetime. It gives me so much hope and cements deeper faith in our Protector and all the great Lamas of past and present. They are all returning for a reason because the real work is about to take off.

The time of the Protector is indeed here and now.

 
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: DharmaSpace on July 25, 2011, 03:42:19 PM
Wow thanks beggar, it goes to show that beings with perfect guru devotion to their lamas still exist amongst us.

To have opposed the very practice that one's guru has propitiated is no easy task. Wel asl time goes by we see more and more signs of Dorje Shugden getting more and more support from all over. For me it is a sign of things turning in favour of Dorje Shugden.

Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: iloveds on July 25, 2011, 03:48:31 PM
The changing of the guard... Is coming true now.

First the Gaden Tripa retires then jumps camp to Shar Gaden. Then this.

I must admit I was one of the first to become judge jury and executioner of HHDL's henchman, now turned golden child. Very embarassing and I also believe some negative Karma to think this way of a Rinpoche.

For those who find it difficult to read between the lines and who require it spelt out, Samdong Rinpoche served HHDL, TGIE, The Tibetan people, NOT for ANY other reason than to SERVE his Guru, H.H. Trijang Rinpoche.

He can't come out and say openly that he doesn't support what HHDL / TGIE is doing, he alludes to it heavily.

Why now? What will the ramifications of this announcement mean for the current environment for Shugdenites vs The Rest?

I agree with you @Helena, we shall see the outcome in our very lifetime for sure!
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: dsiluvu on July 25, 2011, 04:36:34 PM
Amazing, Slowly all the pieces seem to be connecting together!!! The bigger picture yes indeed.

We were so quick to judge even high lamas, so quick to condemn and so quick to pint the finger. I for one can admit that Samdhong Rinpoche did not paint a good impression in me before but what I am glad is that I did not go out that and criticize him.

Samdhong Rinpoche's words is truly going to shock and rock so many. This is pure Guru Devotion right in front of us and to know he is an incarnation of DS shows how DS truly is enlightened being that upholds the Dharma. How many would be able to do this... to lie a white lie for the sake of following your Guru's instructions. These are true Boddhisattvas in action, like peacocks they feed on the poisons of samsara only to appear more beautiful each time. So much for us to learn!

Yes indeed if we follow Trijang Rinpoche's advice clear advice, to not take sides, to not even criticise the Dalai Lama but remain calm and firm in our practice of Guru Devotion. Trijang Rinpoche who predicted long before all this hoo haa ban began, now we can see how all things are just an illusory play!

Things surely are taking a different spin now. Seems like the truth will slowly reveal it self... we just need to trust and be patient :)
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: LosangKhyentse on July 26, 2011, 06:50:02 AM
If we listen to the blessed speech of Professor Samdhong Rinpoche, in actuality he has not given up on Shugden ever. From day one he has practiced Guru Devotion to a tea. Incredibly beautiful.

HH Trijang Rinpoche would know clearly to serve HH Dalai Lama, Samdhong Rinpoche would have to 'give up' Shugden. Even knowing so he asked Samdhong Rinpoche to SACRIFICE EVERYTHING to serve Dalai Lama. Samdhong Rinpoche complied completely.

Samdhong Rinpoche clearly said he did his work in order to fulfill the command of his root guru -simple and straightforward. He did not do his work to serve the Dalai Lama at all. He is indeed very daring to say such a thing. It seems like he is treading a 'thin line' as the saying goes by being so open and clear where his loyalties lie.

Again, like HH Gaden Trisur Rinpoche, Samdhong Rinpoche has shown CLEARLY where his loyalites are. His loyalty is with HH Trijang Rinpoche full stop. In fact by serving Dalai Lama, Shugden should bless/assist Samdhong Rinpoche even more. The bigger picture is manifesting clearer now. As the Dalai Lama ages and before he has even passed away, the lamas who practice Shugden are speaking up in one way or another. Very encouraging.

TK
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: Heartspoon on July 26, 2011, 08:06:04 AM
Oh, how surprising !

Today, my neighbors all met together. They were very excited.
For a very good reason. You see something unheard of happened...
For the very first time, a new form of practice will be available.

It's such an earth-shaking scoop that you had better be seated
before reading on, or I fear someone could accidentally lose the use
of his legs...

Our "rich, powerful and much admired by the community" neighbor
had the extraordinary skill to find for us a new way of practicing Dharma:
 
Using critical thinking is not anymore requested

From now on, if we have any doubt about anything a single answer will
be sufficient for anything thrown our way:

"it's like that because our 'rich, powerful and much admired by the community'
neighbor said "it's like that".


How surprising ! And Je Tsonkhapa who had to do all those unbelievable practices.
Today, it's incredibly easier, me thinks...

The kids are so happy - Immunity granted

When I came back home, kids were stoning my house.
Nothing special, you know, it happens each time our
"rich, powerful and much admired by the community"
neighbor expounds to them his new system of practice.

Here they all call me the "old-fashioned" one or the one
who refuses to think like all of us.

I tried to speak with the kids, but they laughed out loud.
Our "rich, powerful and much admired by the community"
neighbor granted all of them immunity since they adopted
his new kind of practice.

You see life tremendously changed for them, they are so
happy: from now on, they will not have to face any
consequence for their acts.

Our "rich, powerful and much admired by the community"
neighbor has promised that he will take upon himself all
the karmic consequences of their acts.

If only I could obtain such a deal for myself.
Unbelievable...

Elixir of immortality

Tonight I went again to the woods and I met an old original who spent years alone in solitude.
He wishes to find the Elixir of immortality and searches tirelessly.
He had very big news for me: he doesn't need to search anymore, our "rich, powerful and much
admired by the community" neighbor has found it.

It works like that:

Until now, for the old-fashioned ones,

Bad speech, calumnies directed towards someone are like blessings, long life ceremonies for this person.
Being subjected to them clears obstacles, eliminates bad karma. If one keeps patience while being subjected
to those forms of abuse, it greatly increases the merits and thus contributes to increase one's life span.

Very simple: one doesn't need to ask for them, one doesn't need to pay for them, one doesn't even need
to know that it is happening. In any case he will benefit from it.

So one should really rejoice if he has to exert patience when subjected to harm.

But there is a big problem : of course, the poor being who is doing such deeds is putting himself in exactly the reverse position. Frightening !

From now on,  the new practice of our "rich, powerful and much admired by the community" neighbor:

Thanks to his newly found practice, as his disciples don't have to face the karmic consequences of their
acts, thanks to the immunity graciously granted by our neighbor, logically everyone will benefit from
the forms of abuse mentionned above, the person who is doing the bad deeds as well as the one who is
subjected to harm. Death is old news: now it will be almost impossible to die.

Big problem resolved: this way, he has really found the famed elixir of immortality
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: Heartspoon on July 26, 2011, 02:10:38 PM
Here is spiritual advice from two tenants of the "new" form of practice:

“Now, without fear and hesitation, we, Tibetans, must fight and destroy Shugden followers”

Samdhong Rinpoche

“Those who worship Dholgyal are taken care of by the Chinese government. It would be best if they returned to where they are cared for. There is no reason for them to live here. Do you understand?”

HH the 14th Dalai Lama

Spiritual advice from a tenant of the "old-fashioned" form of practice

Sectarianism turns the pure Dharma into poison. Through it, one accumulates great sin. In this life one will be frustrated in one's own Dharma efforts. Upon death, one will fall into hell as swiftly as an arrow shot from a bow. These are the consequences of spending a lifetime in rejecting others' spiritual efforts on such narrow-minded grounds.

Deshung Rinpoche

One who despises another Buddhist school despises the Buddha. He impairs the transmission of the Dharma. The presence of the Dharma is jeopardized by such an attitude, and one becomes cut off from its transmission. This is so because one's refuge vows are based upon reliance on the Enlightened One, His Teachings, and the Holy Community. If one rejects Dharma one breaks one's refuge vow and thereby becomes cut off from the Dharma. By rejecting this Dharma that is the only door to happiness for beings and oneself, one accumulates inexhaustible sin.

Deshung Rinpoche
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: WisdomBeing on July 26, 2011, 02:49:02 PM
For me, the whole point about Samdhong Rinpoche's speech is that it shows that what looks superficially negative, ie Samdhong Rinpoche's consistent and vehement attack on Shugden, is actually positive when I see the motivation and intent behind his stance, which is that he was merely practising Guru devotion to HH Trijang Rinpoche. Let's just look at that and realise that Samdhong Rinpoche did not break samaya with his protector or his Guru despite the outward actions. This is a good lesson for us to not judge others, especially armed with our flawed and limited perceptions. If we can presume to judge another attained being when we are not attained ourselves, does it merely reflect on the size of our egos?
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: Heartspoon on July 26, 2011, 02:55:45 PM
If someone "fights and destroy Dorje Shugden's followers", wishing to apply a so-called spiritual advice, he is not merely acting
wrongly in a superficial way:

Dharma is Dharma
This isn't Dharma.
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: Heartspoon on July 26, 2011, 03:14:36 PM
Wisdombeing,

And now if you meet Samdhong Rinpoche and he tells you:

“Now, without fear and hesitation,you,Wisdombeing, must fight and destroy Shugden followers”

Do you think you will have to exert some critical thinking ?

Or do you merely think: "If I presume to judge another attained being when I am nott attained myself, 
it will merely reflect on the size of my ego. So I have to follow his advice without any form of critical thinking.
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: DSFriend on July 26, 2011, 05:17:59 PM


Samdhong Rinpoche clearly said he did his work in order to fulfill the command of his root guru -simple and straightforward. He did not do his work to serve the Dalai Lama at all. He is indeed very daring to say such a thing. It seems like he is treading a 'thin line' as the saying goes by being so open and clear where his loyalties lie.



Talking about treading a "thin line"...will Samdhong Rinpoche now be black listed by TGIE?I doubt it.

I am very much looking forward to TGIE moving on to other more pressing issues than persecuting Dorje Shugden and his followers.
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: thaimonk on July 27, 2011, 11:11:34 AM
For me, the whole point about Samdhong Rinpoche's speech is that it shows that what looks superficially negative, ie Samdhong Rinpoche's consistent and vehement attack on Shugden, is actually positive when I see the motivation and intent behind his stance, which is that he was merely practising Guru devotion to HH Trijang Rinpoche. Let's just look at that and realise that Samdhong Rinpoche did not break samaya with his protector or his Guru despite the outward actions. This is a good lesson for us to not judge others, especially armed with our flawed and limited perceptions. If we can presume to judge another attained being when we are not attained ourselves, does it merely reflect on the size of our egos?

I like what you wrote here. Thanks.
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: beggar on July 27, 2011, 08:02:24 PM
Wisdombeing,

And now if you meet Samdhong Rinpoche and he tells you:

“Now, without fear and hesitation,you,Wisdombeing, must fight and destroy Shugden followers”

Do you think you will have to exert some critical thinking ?

Or do you merely think: "If I presume to judge another attained being when I am nott attained myself, 
it will merely reflect on the size of my ego. So I have to follow his advice without any form of critical thinking.



There is a difference between thinking logically / acting according to what you feel is most logical and correct and having wrong, negative views of other lamas and then acting out of that.

We may not necessarily have to agree with what Samdhong Rinpoche is telling us to do (i.e. give up Shugden) because we have the advice of our own Lamas which is priority. But understanding where he is coming from, or when we at least maintain some kind of neutrality, we will at least refrain from speaking or acting in negative ways towards him, which does create negative karma (speaking badly of anyone incurs negative karma, least of all a high lama).

This is a good practice to have, whether it applies specifically to this situation or to other more general situations - to train ourselves to look at something for what it is, neutrally, or at least not to habituate ourselves to instantly thinking negatively of something. We never quite know who the real object of our anger might be. If in fact Samdhong Rinpoche is an incarnation of Dorje Shugden himself, as many Dorje Shugden Lamas have proclaimed, then bashing him and inciting others to hate him incurs a very heavy karma.
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: DharmaSpace on July 27, 2011, 08:23:39 PM
If Samdhong Rinpoche is truly and overtly anti dorje shugden he does not have to speak the way he did in the interview.

I grew up in an environment that sometimes you have to read between the lines and information is not always presented in a direct manner. looking at the transcript of the video I feel strongly that Samdhong Rinpoche true to the tibetan buddhism tradition was true to his guru's instructions. His root guru mind you was the great Gelugpa master Trijang Rinpoche.  Trijang Rinpoche's previous incarnation and current incarnation his devotion to Dorje Shugden has never wavered at all no matter what.

Samdhong Rinpoche is he truly anti dorje shugden ? I think not. I think enough reasonable doubt has been thrown into the mix about Samdhong Rinpoche's views about Dorje Shugden to label him as purely anti Dorje Shudgen. Who knows maybe when his term is over he might switch over like the 101st Gaden Tripa.
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: Heartspoon on July 28, 2011, 04:22:56 AM
Wisdombeing,

And now if you meet Samdhong Rinpoche and he tells you:

“Now, without fear and hesitation,you,Wisdombeing, must fight and destroy Shugden followers”

Do you think you will have to exert some critical thinking ?

Or do you merely think: "If I presume to judge another attained being when I am nott attained myself, 
it will merely reflect on the size of my ego. So I have to follow his advice without any form of critical thinking.



There is a difference between thinking logically / acting according to what you feel is most logical and correct and having wrong, negative views of other lamas and then acting out of that.

We may not necessarily have to agree with what Samdhong Rinpoche is telling us to do (i.e. give up Shugden) because we have the advice of our own Lamas which is priority. But understanding where he is coming from, or when we at least maintain some kind of neutrality, we will at least refrain from speaking or acting in negative ways towards him, which does create negative karma (speaking badly of anyone incurs negative karma, least of all a high lama).

This is a good practice to have, whether it applies specifically to this situation or to other more general situations - to train ourselves to look at something for what it is, neutrally, or at least not to habituate ourselves to instantly thinking negatively of something. We never quite know who the real object of our anger might be. If in fact Samdhong Rinpoche is an incarnation of Dorje Shugden himself, as many Dorje Shugden Lamas have proclaimed, then bashing him and inciting others to hate him incurs a very heavy karma.

Yes, indeed...

As the first Panchen Lama Losang Chokyi Gyaltsen said

"Since we cannot see others' minds.
We should make an effort to appreciate everyone's views,
But I cannot accept those who spread wrong views
and by this lead many living beings astray."
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: Heartspoon on July 28, 2011, 04:41:43 AM
Wisdombeing,

And now if you meet Samdhong Rinpoche and he tells you:

“Now, without fear and hesitation,you,Wisdombeing, must fight and destroy Shugden followers”

Do you think you will have to exert some critical thinking ?

Or do you merely think: "If I presume to judge another attained being when I am nott attained myself, 
it will merely reflect on the size of my ego. So I have to follow his advice without any form of critical thinking.



There is a difference between thinking logically / acting according to what you feel is most logical and correct and having wrong, negative views of other lamas and then acting out of that.

We may not necessarily have to agree with what Samdhong Rinpoche is telling us to do (i.e. give up Shugden) because we have the advice of our own Lamas which is priority. But understanding where he is coming from, or when we at least maintain some kind of neutrality, we will at least refrain from speaking or acting in negative ways towards him, which does create negative karma (speaking badly of anyone incurs negative karma, least of all a high lama).

This is a good practice to have, whether it applies specifically to this situation or to other more general situations - to train ourselves to look at something for what it is, neutrally, or at least not to habituate ourselves to instantly thinking negatively of something. We never quite know who the real object of our anger might be. If in fact Samdhong Rinpoche is an incarnation of Dorje Shugden himself, as many Dorje Shugden Lamas have proclaimed, then bashing him and inciting others to hate him incurs a very heavy karma.

Beggar,

Applying your own advice, you should not "instantly think negatively" of what I wrote.
What on earth makes you think that I am speaking or acting in negative ways towards him ?
Please think again and read very carefully what I wrote, from the first to the last message in this discussion.
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: DSFriend on July 28, 2011, 04:56:59 AM
For me, the whole point about Samdhong Rinpoche's speech is that it shows that what looks superficially negative, ie Samdhong Rinpoche's consistent and vehement attack on Shugden, is actually positive when I see the motivation and intent behind his stance, which is that he was merely practising Guru devotion to HH Trijang Rinpoche. Let's just look at that and realise that Samdhong Rinpoche did not break samaya with his protector or his Guru despite the outward actions. This is a good lesson for us to not judge others, especially armed with our flawed and limited perceptions. If we can presume to judge another attained being when we are not attained ourselves, does it merely reflect on the size of our egos?

I would like to add another point to your view which I appreciate very much.

I may be generalizing, but most people got upset with HHDL is because the ban hurts people, thus the protests for religious rights, and human rights. To be honest, how many really cares if Samdhong Rinpoche practices Guru Devotion or not and he breaks his samaya with his protector or not. Thus, Samdhong Rinpoche "supporting" HHDL's ban even though he is practising Guru Devotion still doesn't quite answer .. "then what about the people who got hurt" question.

Thinking about it, I am not able to answer the question directly about karmic effects. However, my lack of understanding does not give me the right to condemn. It is precisely knowing that i do not have full understanding nor attainments to perceive, thus, i must exercise even more awareness to not condemn...if I have any faith in higher beings and the workings of karma.

I can't see the full extent of the effects from the ban, but i can definately see the results of the kind of being H.H. Trijang Rinpoche is. Therefore, my mind is at rest with what he tells Samdhong Rinpoche to do.

Can anyone carry out the instruction just like Samdhong Rinpoche.. flawlessly despite his lack of concerns for Tibet's national affairs and definately he does not support the ban? Does anyone of us have such strong guru devotion? I find him to be a very uncommon being.

Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: Heartspoon on July 28, 2011, 05:01:34 AM
For me, the whole point about Samdhong Rinpoche's speech is that it shows that what looks superficially negative, ie Samdhong Rinpoche's consistent and vehement attack on Shugden, is actually positive when I see the motivation and intent behind his stance, which is that he was merely practising Guru devotion to HH Trijang Rinpoche. Let's just look at that and realise that Samdhong Rinpoche did not break samaya with his protector or his Guru despite the outward actions. This is a good lesson for us to not judge others, especially armed with our flawed and limited perceptions. If we can presume to judge another attained being when we are not attained ourselves, does it merely reflect on the size of our egos?

I would like to add another point to your view which I appreciate very much.

I may be generalizing, but most people got upset with HHDL is because the ban hurts people, thus the protests for religious rights, and human rights. To be honest, how many really cares if Samdhong Rinpoche practices Guru Devotion or not and he breaks his samaya with his protector or not. Thus, Samdhong Rinpoche "supporting" HHDL's ban even though he is practising Guru Devotion still doesn't quite answer .. "then what about the people who got hurt" question.

Thinking about it, I am not able to answer the question directly about karmic effects. However, my lack of understanding does not give me the right to condemn. It is precisely knowing that i do not have full understanding nor attainments to perceive, thus, i must exercise even more awareness to not condemn...if I have any faith in higher beings and the workings of karma.

I can't see the full extent of the effects from the ban, but i can definately see the results of the kind of being H.H. Trijang Rinpoche is. Therefore, my mind is at rest with what he tells Samdhong Rinpoche to do.

Can anyone carry out the instruction just like Samdhong Rinpoche.. flawlessly despite his lack of concerns for Tibet's national affairs and definately he does not support the ban? Does anyone of us have such strong guru devotion? I find him to be a very uncommon being.



DSFriend,

I like very much the following advice thatf HH the 14th Dalai Lama gave concerning this topic:

"It is necessary to clarify these matters. Otherwise, some of you might have your suspicions. Maybe there are still some of you who, in seeming deference to the Dalai Lama make out as though you agree and follow me in this, but who privately harbour other thoughts. Others of you may be thinking, ‘well I am not sure of the reasons, but as it is something that the Dalai Lama has instructed, I must abide by it’. I want to stress again that I do not support this attitude at all. This is a ridiculous approach. This is a position that one should come to by weighing the evidence and then using one's discernment about what it would be best to adopt and what best to avoid."
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: vajrastorm on July 28, 2011, 05:48:35 AM
in light of this very stunning new development - a shocking revelation by Samdhong Rinpoche(the outgoing Kalon Tripa(Prime Minister of the TGIE) in this speech - and the sea change in our perspective of  "good" and "bad" as prompted by this speech, I am glad that this website has always maintained a stance of neutrality in this Dalai Lama/ Dorje Shugden controversy.

Here it will be timely to remind ourselves of what Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche himself says about the importance of not taking sides in this controversy, which he must have foreseen was going to take place.He says that those who take sides and speak badly "about either in wrong conduct"are displaying "the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the INFLUENCE OF ATTACHMENT AND HATRED just tries to help friends and hurt enemies: it OBSCURES THE INCREASE OF THESE GREAT HOLY ARYAS' DEEDS AND CREATES THE KARMIC CAUSE TO EXPERIENCE UNBEARABLE SUFFERING IN THE FUTURE".

Thus , we see how true and relevant his words are when it comes to such great attained beings, like Samdhong Rinpoche. Samdhong Rinpoce shows us how how Guru Devotion can be taken to new levels by compassionate beings who work only for the ultimate benefit of all beings.While seeming to be obeying and supporting the Dalai Lama in upholding his ban on the Dorje Shugden practice and also allowing the subsequent suffering of Shugden practitioners, he was merely following 100 % the instructions of his root Guru, the previous Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche.How patient and compassionate he has been to suffer all the stinging criticisms and brickbats in response to his 'negative' actions and words against Dorje Shugden practitioners. And to think he is en emanation of Dorje Shugden as both great masters, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and Gangchen Rinpoche have affirmed!

So now the BIGGER PICTURE is emerging surely and steadily. Two and more compassionate Enlightened beings are working together - Chenrezig and Dorje Shugen and many great Masters along with them. All are united towards one end:  that the Dharma, that Je Tsongkhapa's  and Gelugpa lineage teachings, will grow and spread in all directions unrelentingly, for the benefit of all beings!
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: DharmaDefender on July 28, 2011, 09:45:07 PM
Wisdombeing,

And now if you meet Samdhong Rinpoche and he tells you:

“Now, without fear and hesitation,you,Wisdombeing, must fight and destroy Shugden followers”

Do you think you will have to exert some critical thinking ?

Or do you merely think: "If I presume to judge another attained being when I am nott attained myself, 
it will merely reflect on the size of my ego. So I have to follow his advice without any form of critical thinking.



There is a difference between thinking logically / acting according to what you feel is most logical and correct and having wrong, negative views of other lamas and then acting out of that.

We may not necessarily have to agree with what Samdhong Rinpoche is telling us to do (i.e. give up Shugden) because we have the advice of our own Lamas which is priority. But understanding where he is coming from, or when we at least maintain some kind of neutrality, we will at least refrain from speaking or acting in negative ways towards him, which does create negative karma (speaking badly of anyone incurs negative karma, least of all a high lama).

This is a good practice to have, whether it applies specifically to this situation or to other more general situations - to train ourselves to look at something for what it is, neutrally, or at least not to habituate ourselves to instantly thinking negatively of something. We never quite know who the real object of our anger might be. If in fact Samdhong Rinpoche is an incarnation of Dorje Shugden himself, as many Dorje Shugden Lamas have proclaimed, then bashing him and inciting others to hate him incurs a very heavy karma.

Yes, indeed...

As the first Panchen Lama Losang Chokyi Gyaltsen said

"Since we cannot see others' minds.
We should make an effort to appreciate everyone's views,
But I cannot accept those who spread wrong views
and by this lead many living beings astray."

I can see where your coming from...just because Im not Christian, doesn't mean Im against Jesus. I just dont accept him. But at the same time I dont talk negatively about him because my knowledge of his teachings and his motivation is lacking.
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: Heartspoon on July 29, 2011, 04:29:45 AM
"Thus before undertaking to practice any dharma teaching,
we must first make a general investigation.

As Lord Sakya Pandita said:

When (wordly persons) buy and sell
Common things like a horse or jewels,
They question everyone and examine (the items) closely.
We can observe these efforts being made
In the petty affairs of this life.
Yet, though the happiness of our lives
Depends on the holy dharma,
(The foolish) act like dogs with food.
Without examining its merits in any way,
They rever whatever they happen to find."

Liberation In Our Hands
Pabongka Rinpoche
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: Heartspoon on July 29, 2011, 04:47:38 AM
Wisdombeing,

And now if you meet Samdhong Rinpoche and he tells you:

“Now, without fear and hesitation,you,Wisdombeing, must fight and destroy Shugden followers”

Do you think you will have to exert some critical thinking ?

Or do you merely think: "If I presume to judge another attained being when I am nott attained myself, 
it will merely reflect on the size of my ego. So I have to follow his advice without any form of critical thinking.



There is a difference between thinking logically / acting according to what you feel is most logical and correct and having wrong, negative views of other lamas and then acting out of that.

We may not necessarily have to agree with what Samdhong Rinpoche is telling us to do (i.e. give up Shugden) because we have the advice of our own Lamas which is priority. But understanding where he is coming from, or when we at least maintain some kind of neutrality, we will at least refrain from speaking or acting in negative ways towards him, which does create negative karma (speaking badly of anyone incurs negative karma, least of all a high lama).

This is a good practice to have, whether it applies specifically to this situation or to other more general situations - to train ourselves to look at something for what it is, neutrally, or at least not to habituate ourselves to instantly thinking negatively of something. We never quite know who the real object of our anger might be. If in fact Samdhong Rinpoche is an incarnation of Dorje Shugden himself, as many Dorje Shugden Lamas have proclaimed, then bashing him and inciting others to hate him incurs a very heavy karma.

Yes, indeed...

As the first Panchen Lama Losang Chokyi Gyaltsen said

"Since we cannot see others' minds.
We should make an effort to appreciate everyone's views,
But I cannot accept those who spread wrong views
and by this lead many living beings astray."

I can see where your coming from...just because Im not Christian, doesn't mean Im against Jesus. I just dont accept him. But at the same time I dont talk negatively about him because my knowledge of his teachings and his motivation is lacking.

If the basis is ignorance, then of course I agree that it will be rather difficult to act in any meaningful way.
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: WisdomBeing on July 29, 2011, 06:36:26 PM
Wisdombeing,

And now if you meet Samdhong Rinpoche and he tells you:

“Now, without fear and hesitation,you,Wisdombeing, must fight and destroy Shugden followers”

Do you think you will have to exert some critical thinking ?

Or do you merely think: "If I presume to judge another attained being when I am nott attained myself, 
it will merely reflect on the size of my ego. So I have to follow his advice without any form of critical thinking.


In response to your hypothetical question, Heartspoon, If Samdhong Rinpoche tells me i should do this, i would not follow his advice because I do not agree with it and he is not my Guru. However, i would not think negatively on his request because i have no idea what his motivation is. So this is consistent with my previous statement which is not to judge an attained being when i am not attained myself.

The basis of all wrong views is surely ignorance but while we individually work on removing our various levels of ignorance, let's try not to be critical of and put down each other's different views.

Love and peace as always!!
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: Heartspoon on July 30, 2011, 05:31:36 AM
Patrul Rinpoche was roaming the Tibetan mountains. One day he heard
about a great hermit who had spent twenty years in a cave meditating on
the Perfection of Patience. Desirous to meet such a saintly being, he went
in search of his cave.

Poking his head around the entrance, he called out, "Hello there, what are you doing?"
His meditation disrupted by this impertinent question, the hermit opened one eye and
inquired, "What do you want?”

The beggar crouched down in front of him, his eyes glinting with mischief,
without uttering a word. "Who are you? Where do you come from?" pressed the hermit.
"I come from behind my back, and I'm going in the direction I am facing."

Nonplussed, the hermit continued, "Where were you born, on earth ? "
OK, he said, trying to contain his rising frustration, "What do you want ? "
"Well, I was curious to know what you're doing here."

The hermit was keen to impress this simpleton. "You see my son,
I have been meditating here for twenty years on Lord Buddha's
Perfection of Patience."

The beggar howled with laughter, poking him in the ribs with a dirty
finger, and said, "Oh, what a great scam ! Gullible locals, are they?
How much are you making these days?

The hermit thundered, "How dare you! You barge in here. You give me
all these crazy lines. Now you insult me. OUT! OUT!"

As he rose to leave, Patrul Rinpoche calmly  observed,
"And where's your perfect patience now?"

The hermit's anger froze instantly, as he realized the vanity of his
claim. Sitting down and taking a deep breath, he started meditating in
earnest for the first time.

Patrul Rimpoche lived in the nineteenth century and was one of the
greatest scholars in Buddhism. This highly realized saint roamed all over
Tibet anonymously, dressed as a beggar, creating mischief along the way.

His primary goal was to focus the mind of people on true spiritual
pursuits, while exposing false teachings and fake spirituality.

This hermit had deluded himself for over twenty years, and grew
comfortable in it. But a single encounter with a master can shatter a
lifetime of delusions and establish us on the true path.

Were these twenty years of previous meditation a waste of time?
Quite the contrary. They were the necessary preparation to bring about
this profound transformation.

Posted on IndiaDivine.Org by a guest
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: triesa on July 30, 2011, 05:09:34 PM
Lets us not forget that Samdhong Rinpoche is recognised as a Shugden incarnation, so why would a shugden incarnate condemn his own practice if not for Guru Devotion here by adhereing and following  the advice from  his root guru Trijang Rinpoche, which is to serve HHDL and the Tibetan government well....

The picture is really getting clearer and clearer as more Shugden lamas are speaking up while HHDl is fading behind the political scene slowly. And now even Samdhong Rinpoche bravely spoke about his committment to his root Guru Trijang Rinpoche who is a well known Dorje Shudgen practitioner........ The changing of the guardian will take place soon, as the events unfold slowly.
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: Mana on July 31, 2011, 08:24:18 AM
It is very encouraging to hear what Samdhong Rinpoche is openly declaring now that his term as Kalong Tripa is finished. He is like Gaden Trisur joining Shar Gaden after his term as Gaden Tripa completed. No one can do anything to Samdhong Rinpoche because his term is over.

Samdhong Rinpoche in his erudite scholarly knowledge and steadfast guru devotion, would definitely comprehend fully his root guru Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche is not wrong in recognizing Shugden as Manjushri. I feel Samdhong Rinpoche is playing his part in the Bigger Picture theory. What else could it be? 

The Dalai Lama's power is handed over to a secular 'head'. Dalai Lama is aging very much. The manifestation of Tibet's pleas for independence or autonomy is as real as a horned rabbit clearly signifying the failure of Tibetan Govt in exile. The Tibetans in exile themselves are taking every opportunity to immigrate to Europe and North America while they can. They have great fear for the time after the Dalai Lama is gone. Lobsang Sangay may be young, educated and eloquent, but what can he do? What can any Tibetans in exile do that they have not done already. The Tibetans living abroad within 2-3 generations will lose their culture, language and connections. All immigrants eventually do. The semblences of the 'old country' fades as they adopt the customs of the new country. It wouldn't be any different for the Tibetans. The Tibetans in Tibet are starting to embrace the China recognized Panchen Rinpoche. Looks like the red star over Tibet remains while the snow lion of Tibet is nowhere to be seen.

Dalai Lama is a man and men die. Men's dreams, hopes, wishes, likes all fade with time. Shugden is a 'god'...he will last much longer.

I am sure of the Bigger Picture. I remain steadfast to it.

Mana
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: LosangKhyentse on July 31, 2011, 08:27:23 AM
It is very encouraging to hear what Samdhong Rinpoche is openly declaring now that his term as Kalong Tripa is finished. He is like Gaden Trisur joining Shar Gaden after his term as Gaden Tripa completed. No one can do anything to Samdhong Rinpoche because his term is over.

Samdhong Rinpoche in his erudite scholarly knowledge and steadfast guru devotion, would definitely comprehend fully his root guru Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche is not wrong in recognizing Shugden as Manjushri. I feel Samdhong Rinpoche is playing his part in the Bigger Picture theory. What else could it be? 

The Dalai Lama's power is handed over to a secular 'head'. Dalai Lama is aging very much. The manifestation of Tibet's pleas for independence or autonomy is as real as a horned rabbit clearly signifying the failure of Tibetan Govt in exile. The Tibetans in exile themselves are taking every opportunity to immigrate to Europe and North America while they can. They have great fear for the time after the Dalai Lama is gone. Lobsang Sangay may be young, educated and eloquent, but what can he do? What can any Tibetans in exile do that they have not done already. The Tibetans living abroad within 2-3 generations will lose their culture, language and connections. All immigrants eventually do. The semblences of the 'old country' fades as they adopt the customs of the new country. It wouldn't be any different for the Tibetans. The Tibetans in Tibet are starting to embrace the China recognized Panchen Rinpoche. Looks like the red star over Tibet remains while the snow lion of Tibet is nowhere to be seen.

Dalai Lama is a man and men die. Men's dreams, hopes, wishes, likes all fade with time. Shugden is a 'god'...he will last much longer.

I am sure of the Bigger Picture. I remain steadfast to it.

Mana


I agree. Thank you Mana.
TK
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: Big Uncle on August 01, 2011, 04:31:53 AM
It is very encouraging to hear what Samdhong Rinpoche is openly declaring now that his term as Kalong Tripa is finished. He is like Gaden Trisur joining Shar Gaden after his term as Gaden Tripa completed. No one can do anything to Samdhong Rinpoche because his term is over.

Samdhong Rinpoche in his erudite scholarly knowledge and steadfast guru devotion, would definitely comprehend fully his root guru Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche is not wrong in recognizing Shugden as Manjushri. I feel Samdhong Rinpoche is playing his part in the Bigger Picture theory. What else could it be? 

The Dalai Lama's power is handed over to a secular 'head'. Dalai Lama is aging very much. The manifestation of Tibet's pleas for independence or autonomy is as real as a horned rabbit clearly signifying the failure of Tibetan Govt in exile. The Tibetans in exile themselves are taking every opportunity to immigrate to Europe and North America while they can. They have great fear for the time after the Dalai Lama is gone. Lobsang Sangay may be young, educated and eloquent, but what can he do? What can any Tibetans in exile do that they have not done already. The Tibetans living abroad within 2-3 generations will lose their culture, language and connections. All immigrants eventually do. The semblences of the 'old country' fades as they adopt the customs of the new country. It wouldn't be any different for the Tibetans. The Tibetans in Tibet are starting to embrace the China recognized Panchen Rinpoche. Looks like the red star over Tibet remains while the snow lion of Tibet is nowhere to be seen.

Dalai Lama is a man and men die. Men's dreams, hopes, wishes, likes all fade with time. Shugden is a 'god'...he will last much longer.

I am sure of the Bigger Picture. I remain steadfast to it.

Mana

Thank you Mana. This is extremely well said and clear. I like this post very much because it challenges us to think deeper between the lines. A lot of what goes on is merely a play of great enlightened masters. This is mentioned many times in the great scriptures and explained many times over but when the great masters today enact the great deeds as before, very few recognizes it and some even argue and have tremendous doubts.

I sometimes think that the great masters have no choice but to act in such a manner as our collective karma demands it. How else can a great and powerful protector be spread around the world in such a quick manner. Otherwise, it would have taken countless millions of dollars to promote Dorje Shugden to the level that the Dalai Lama has done. This is not to mention the obstacles that would arise and the tremendous pujas that need to be done to avert it.

Anyway, it has become clearer and clearer what the Dalai Lama is doing and the bigger picture seems to be coming closer and closer to completion. We are indeed very fortunate to be the pioneer group of practitioners of Dorje Shugden. I shall never forget the previous Karmapa's prophecy, that all Tibetan Buddhists will practice Dorje Shugden one day.
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: LosangKhyentse on August 01, 2011, 10:32:18 AM

Thank you Mana. This is extremely well said and clear. I like this post very much because it challenges us to think deeper between the lines. A lot of what goes on is merely a play of great enlightened masters. This is mentioned many times in the great scriptures and explained many times over but when the great masters today enact the great deeds as before, very few recognizes it and some even argue and have tremendous doubts.

I sometimes think that the great masters have no choice but to act in such a manner as our collective karma demands it. How else can a great and powerful protector be spread around the world in such a quick manner. Otherwise, it would have taken countless millions of dollars to promote Dorje Shugden to the level that the Dalai Lama has done. This is not to mention the obstacles that would arise and the tremendous pujas that need to be done to avert it.

Anyway, it has become clearer and clearer what the Dalai Lama is doing and the bigger picture seems to be coming closer and closer to completion. We are indeed very fortunate to be the pioneer group of practitioners of Dorje Shugden. I shall never forget the previous Karmapa's prophecy, that all Tibetan Buddhists will practice Dorje Shugden one day.

Very well said. I like it and agree.
TK
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: Zach on August 01, 2011, 01:45:30 PM
Question: The previous karmapas words on Dorje shugden, does anyone know how reliable the accuracy of this is who did he speak this to and in what context ?
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: Heartspoon on August 01, 2011, 02:13:47 PM
Question: The previous karmapas words on Dorje shugden, does anyone know how reliable the accuracy of this is who did he speak this to and in what context ?


Zach,

Look here: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=885.0
According to Beggar and Vajraprotector, Dagom Rinpoche has written about it-
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: Heartspoon on August 01, 2011, 02:36:41 PM

Thank you Mana. This is extremely well said and clear. I like this post very much because it challenges us to think deeper between the lines. A lot of what goes on is merely a play of great enlightened masters. This is mentioned many times in the great scriptures and explained many times over but when the great masters today enact the great deeds as before, very few recognizes it and some even argue and have tremendous doubts.

I sometimes think that the great masters have no choice but to act in such a manner as our collective karma demands it. How else can a great and powerful protector be spread around the world in such a quick manner. Otherwise, it would have taken countless millions of dollars to promote Dorje Shugden to the level that the Dalai Lama has done. This is not to mention the obstacles that would arise and the tremendous pujas that need to be done to avert it.

Anyway, it has become clearer and clearer what the Dalai Lama is doing and the bigger picture seems to be coming closer and closer to completion. We are indeed very fortunate to be the pioneer group of practitioners of Dorje Shugden. I shall never forget the previous Karmapa's prophecy, that all Tibetan Buddhists will practice Dorje Shugden one day.

Very well said. I like it and agree.
TK


For your sake always speak the truth.
Even should it cause your death
Or ruin your governance,
Do not speak in any other way.

Just as by themselves the true words
Of kings generate firm trust,
So their false words are the best means
To create distrust.

What is not deceitful is the truth;
It is not an intentional fabrication.
What is solely helpful to others is the truth.
The opposite is falsehood since it does not help.

Nagarjuna's Precious Garland
Compassion and Wisdom in Public Policy


Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: Helena on August 01, 2011, 10:01:16 PM
Mana, I am with you.

I am remain firmly with the Bigger Picture.

Now, I can finally understand why "our minds are unfit vessels" for all the precious teachings.

We all know so little and can only see the tiny tip of the ice berg. We do not possess absolute and complete knowledge of the present - let alone, past and future. Yet we like to think that we have 'wholesome' understanding of every situation or individual. And then we commit the gravest of mistake by making such a strong and rigid judgement or conclusion on the little that we see and know - believing it to be the truth.

With every new piece of information, there is more to see and learn. As if the light is cast into the shadows, enlarging the picture and clarifying the scenario further.

These are indeed exciting times and I truly look forward to the "Changing of the Guardians".


Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: WoselTenzin on August 03, 2011, 05:27:02 AM

Thank you Mana. This is extremely well said and clear. I like this post very much because it challenges us to think deeper between the lines. A lot of what goes on is merely a play of great enlightened masters. This is mentioned many times in the great scriptures and explained many times over but when the great masters today enact the great deeds as before, very few recognizes it and some even argue and have tremendous doubts.

I sometimes think that the great masters have no choice but to act in such a manner as our collective karma demands it. How else can a great and powerful protector be spread around the world in such a quick manner. Otherwise, it would have taken countless millions of dollars to promote Dorje Shugden to the level that the Dalai Lama has done. This is not to mention the obstacles that would arise and the tremendous pujas that need to be done to avert it.

Anyway, it has become clearer and clearer what the Dalai Lama is doing and the bigger picture seems to be coming closer and closer to completion. We are indeed very fortunate to be the pioneer group of practitioners of Dorje Shugden. I shall never forget the previous Karmapa's prophecy, that all Tibetan Buddhists will practice Dorje Shugden one day.

Very well said. I like it and agree.
TK


I can't wait for the day to come. No more pro and anti DS faction. No more unfair discrimination against DS practitioners. No more reason for people to use DS issue for their own political interest. Innocent sincere DS practitioners do not need to be ostracised and suffer. 

Whatever DS practitioners throughout the world are going through now looks like a massive purification process for the DS practice to emerge as mainstream protector practice in the world of Tibetan Buddhists.  This process is sometimes beyond the understanding of our ordinary minds.

The only saving grace is that in general Tibetan Buddhists still have Guru devotion, have faith and are loyal to their gurus and the practices given to them.  Because of this faith, DS practioners especially those in India are still able to continue this practice despite massive threats, having to endure extreme sufferings and pressure to abandon the practice to be politically correct.

May the Karmapa's prediction come true!

 
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: beggar on August 05, 2011, 05:24:57 PM
Wisdombeing,

And now if you meet Samdhong Rinpoche and he tells you:

“Now, without fear and hesitation,you,Wisdombeing, must fight and destroy Shugden followers”

Do you think you will have to exert some critical thinking ?

Or do you merely think: "If I presume to judge another attained being when I am nott attained myself, 
it will merely reflect on the size of my ego. So I have to follow his advice without any form of critical thinking.



There is a difference between thinking logically / acting according to what you feel is most logical and correct and having wrong, negative views of other lamas and then acting out of that.

We may not necessarily have to agree with what Samdhong Rinpoche is telling us to do (i.e. give up Shugden) because we have the advice of our own Lamas which is priority. But understanding where he is coming from, or when we at least maintain some kind of neutrality, we will at least refrain from speaking or acting in negative ways towards him, which does create negative karma (speaking badly of anyone incurs negative karma, least of all a high lama).

This is a good practice to have, whether it applies specifically to this situation or to other more general situations - to train ourselves to look at something for what it is, neutrally, or at least not to habituate ourselves to instantly thinking negatively of something. We never quite know who the real object of our anger might be. If in fact Samdhong Rinpoche is an incarnation of Dorje Shugden himself, as many Dorje Shugden Lamas have proclaimed, then bashing him and inciting others to hate him incurs a very heavy karma.

Beggar,

Applying your own advice, you should not "instantly think negatively" of what I wrote.
What on earth makes you think that I am speaking or acting in negative ways towards him ?
Please think again and read very carefully what I wrote, from the first to the last message in this discussion.

I do apologise! I did not mean it to come across as an attack on you. Rather, more like a warning for all of us that "critical thinking" doesn't become something that is negative, as being critical can often tip the scale more towards being negative and there is a fine line between being analytical or putting forward constructive criticism, and just being critical.

And from that kind of thinking, we can tend to get carried away to also talk and act negatively.

My posting is not something specific to you, it is a tendency that all of us have, and about all of us having awareness for how we do or do not talk about other Lamas and practitioners.
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: Rihanna on August 06, 2011, 11:25:58 AM

I look forward to more pleasant surprises from other Lamas after they retire from office!


The changing of the guard... Is coming true now.

First the Gaden Tripa retires then jumps camp to Shar Gaden. Then this.

I must admit I was one of the first to become judge jury and executioner of HHDL's henchman, now turned golden child. Very embarassing and I also believe some negative Karma to think this way of a Rinpoche.

For those who find it difficult to read between the lines and who require it spelt out, Samdong Rinpoche served HHDL, TGIE, The Tibetan people, NOT for ANY other reason than to SERVE his Guru, H.H. Trijang Rinpoche.

He can't come out and say openly that he doesn't support what HHDL / TGIE is doing, he alludes to it heavily.

Why now? What will the ramifications of this announcement mean for the current environment for Shugdenites vs The Rest?

I agree with you @Helena, we shall see the outcome in our very lifetime for sure!
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: vajrastorm on August 08, 2011, 06:33:06 AM
I am glad that (with  the bold and stunning revelations in Samdhong Rinpoche's speech) the  bigger picture -  of the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden working together to spread the Dharma in this degenerate age - is now definitely and clearly emerging.

Samdhong Rinpoche's revelations show that he has truly actualized Guru Devotion at an incredible level. I came across these lines from the "Nine Attitudes of Guru Devotion", which Samdhong Rinpoche's Guru Devotion clearly mirrors:

"With the attitude like an iron mountain,
Unmoving, no matter what suffering occurs.

With an attitude like a servant: who accomplishes everything
Without hesitation, even if it means taking on all of the worst jobs.

With an attitude like a sweeper: Abandoning pride and feelings
Of superiority, and holding oneself lower than the Guru.

With an attitude like a vehicle: That carries out
Even the most difficult and heaviest work of the Guru joyfully."

I thought how apt it was to apply these lines especially to Samdhong Rinpoche in his devotion to his Root Guru Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche..

This speech has made me so much more aware of the power and greatness of the compassion, wisdom and skillful means of Kyabje  Trijang Rinpoche. It is as though he had seen what was to come and orchestrated the whole act, including the controversy and ban.And all this was done so that the pure Dharma of Je Tsongkapa could be preserved and spread everywhere for the benefit of all beings in these degenerate times. The times are indeed degenerate and minds of beings extremely deluded: one man in peaceful Norway could go on a senseless killing spree and kill over eighty mainly young people!
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: kurava on August 08, 2011, 10:06:51 AM
I'm sorry Samdhong Rinpoche, I was one of those who hated you for taking such 'heartless' stand against all the DS practitioners !

I can imagine all the accusations you took in putting your Guru Devotion to practice 100%; all the heartaches you endure seeing the pains and sufferings of DS practitioners and yet you had no choice but continue with the 'persecution' because you were told to 'give up everything'.

I know now what  real Guru Devotion is , what is meant by pure and sincere practice without the 8 worldly concerns and the saying that appearances are deceptive. I must say yours is one of the greatest deceptions in line with the bigger- picture scheme of things.
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: diamond girl on August 08, 2011, 04:50:30 PM
Wow! Dorje Shugden compassionately emanates as a Lama who would be placed to assist the Dalai Lama to ban himself! I am not clairvoyant to see if he is or not but Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and Gangchen Rinpoche definitely are clairvoyant to see this. However, his powerful and honest Guru devotion amidst his own obvious faith in Dorje Shugden is painfully obvious.

He toiled in silence as so many people have hurled nasty remarks about him and he still does everything so convincingly. His devotional qualities can only be of how Dorje Shugden would have been in the form of a Lama. His pure Guru devotion would mean that the ban he had worked so hard will be a blessing. It will have the effect that will spread Dorje Shugden practice farther and wider because it was born out of pure Guru devotion regardless of how it may have appeared in the past. Alas, we have discovered another disguised hero of Dorje Shugden, a hero we mistook for a villain. How degenerate our times are!

Thank you Big Uncle, what you have written are my thoughts exactly. Of course Thank You Beggar for posting this up.

It is truly Guru Devotion to have gone through all of this in his lifetime. Like Beggar said, in fulfilling his Guru Devotion he banned himself. I cannot even begin to imagine the "pain" in doing all this against oneself. Imagine, us lay people who get all upset and angry when we do not get to be righteous, we would have probably exploded if we had to endure what Samdhong Rinpoche has gone through.

What a selfless Master! May the practice of Dorje Shugden grow faster and wide!
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: hope rainbow on August 16, 2011, 02:22:27 AM

I sometimes think that the great masters have no choice but to act in such a manner as our collective karma demands it.
How else can a great and powerful protector be spread around the world in such a quick manner.
Otherwise, it would have taken countless millions of dollars to promote Dorje Shugden to the level that the Dalai Lama has done.
This is not to mention the obstacles that would arise and the tremendous pujas that need to be done to avert it.

Anyway, it has become clearer and clearer what the Dalai Lama is doing and the bigger picture seems to be coming closer and closer to completion.
We are indeed very fortunate to be the pioneer group of practitioners of Dorje Shugden.
I shall never forget the previous Karmapa's prophecy, that all Tibetan Buddhists will practice Dorje Shugden one day.


What I am writing here is strictly my own reflection and not based on any information I have about this, but I have this question in my mind ever since I heard Samdhong Rinpoche talk about his motivation behind his support to The Dalai Lama and consecutively the ban on Dorje Shugden. It is a question I feel I should share...

a) I cannot get myself to think for one moment that His Holiness the Dalai Lama would do anything contradicting his guru -Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, nor anything damaging to the teachings of Lama Tsongkhapa, or even (hear me) to the spread of Dorje Shugden's practice.

b) Thus, in logic, I wonder if the ban was not an instruction from Trijang Rinpoche to His Holiness. I just wonder...

c) This would be logical with the instruction Trijang Rinpoche also gave to Samdhong Rinpoche.

d) It would also give light in the warning that Trijang Rinpoche gave to practitioners to be careful of not speaking ill or think ill of the actions of The Dalai Lama.

Maybe I am thinking too much, maybe I could be wrong...
But if the above is correct, I imagine (again) if The Dalai Lama was to speak in a similar way as Samdhong Rinpoche did, and let the world know that the ban on Dorje Shugden was actually instructed by Trijang Rinpoche himself. This would perhaps convince the few that remains skeptical about "the grand scheme" of things. Ohoooo!
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: WisdomBeing on August 16, 2011, 07:44:12 PM
Dear Hope Rainbow,

What an interesting perspective you have shared here. I hadn't thought about this angle at all.. hmmm what food for thought. It is of course hypothetical but the possibility is exciting!

Especially recently the Dalai Lama has confessed that he has been a hypocrite regarding his combining the secular and spiritual in his role as the head of Tibet. If he is saying he was wrong, what else can he be wrong about?

In the meantime, i''m still waiting for Samdhong Rinpoche to kick his closet door open and declare himself a DS practitioner!
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: beggar on August 17, 2011, 03:25:32 PM

a) I cannot get myself to think for one moment that His Holiness the Dalai Lama would do anything contradicting his guru -Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, nor anything damaging to the teachings of Lama Tsongkhapa, or even (hear me) to the spread of Dorje Shugden's practice.

b) Thus, in logic, I wonder if the ban was not an instruction from Trijang Rinpoche to His Holiness. I just wonder...

c) This would be logical with the instruction Trijang Rinpoche also gave to Samdhong Rinpoche.

d) It would also give light in the warning that Trijang Rinpoche gave to practitioners to be careful of not speaking ill or think ill of the actions of The Dalai Lama.

Maybe I am thinking too much, maybe I could be wrong...
But if the above is correct, I imagine (again) if The Dalai Lama was to speak in a similar way as Samdhong Rinpoche did, and let the world know that the ban on Dorje Shugden was actually instructed by Trijang Rinpoche himself. This would perhaps convince the few that remains skeptical about "the grand scheme" of things. Ohoooo!

Incredible! I had never thought of this but it doesn't seem to be an impossible idea. The Dalai Lama's tutors had a great influence in his life, literally. They even risked life together to cross Tibet. It may very well be his lama's instruction - what shockwaves that would send through the world.

It is certainly not out of line with the current train of thought and events, just as you mentioned.It syncs very well with the prophecies that Trijang Rinpoche himself spoke about seeming conflict in the future. I had always thought of this as clairvoyance, when in fact - just as you propose - the "conflict" would have been planted by Trijang Rinpoche himself.

We shall never know, I suppose. But I do wonder what the previous Trijang Rinpoche would have thought of the current situation. Would he have approved? Even with all the abuse that DS practitioners are having to suffer?   
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: happysun on August 18, 2011, 05:31:42 PM
Samdhong Rinpoche's speech!!!! It is very powerful when someone put action in their word!!! I don't know who is Samdhong Rinpoche honestly,  however after I read through what he has done, I shut my mouth immediately. Samdhong Rinpoche's guru devotion is amazing nowsday. It is very weird and precious. Because not easy to find someone so devote to his Guru, even his Guru had pass away quite a long time.

To Samdhong Rinpoche what he was done will be guide us become a very very good example be a fully devoted student.   His guru devotion is real and pure.

If you are not yet watch the video, must watch!!! 
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: kris on September 14, 2011, 09:02:32 PM
I can't remember if I read somewhere, or someone has told me, that, before the whole Dorje Shugden issue, Trijang Rinpoche and HH Dalai Lama are working together to promote Buddhism, and that the things they say may seem to be conflicting each other. Then come the Dorje Shugden issue.

And now Samdhong Rinpoche said something which is inline with the above, and it is indeed very interesting and added new spin to the whole issue.

I'm really looking forward to what is going to happend next :)
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: shugdenpromoter on September 16, 2011, 04:21:48 PM
I wonder how many more lamas out there who are like Samdhong Rinpoche who is now serving HH but solely due to their Guru Devotion?

 
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: Aurore on September 19, 2011, 10:16:36 PM
I can't remember if I read somewhere, or someone has told me, that, before the whole Dorje Shugden issue, Trijang Rinpoche and HH Dalai Lama are working together to promote Buddhism, and that the things they say may seem to be conflicting each other. Then come the Dorje Shugden issue.

And now Samdhong Rinpoche said something which is inline with the above, and it is indeed very interesting and added new spin to the whole issue.

I'm really looking forward to what is going to happend next :)

I think it's Dorje Shugden (Manjushri) and Dalai Lama (Chenrezig) who is working together to preserve Lama Tsongkhapa's doctrine.
I wasn't entirely surprised to find out Samdhong Rinpoche is Dorje Shugden just as HHDL's brother is also Dorje Shugden. Amazing how the enlightened minds work. Undeniably Samdhong Rinpoche showed tremendous guru devotion since his main aim of doing what he did was purely following his root guru's instructions. You can't find this kind of guru devotion these days anymore. Hardly!

Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: thaimonk on September 20, 2011, 07:52:59 AM
Has anyone heard the surprising and good news that after retiring from office Ven Samdhong Rinpoche has re-started his Shugden practice. Before taking office he practiced Shugden for over 40 years. He did all the work for the former Tibetan Govt in Exile only on the basis of following Trijang Rinpoche's instructions. Trijang Rinpoche is his root teacher. He didn't work for the Dalai Lama and former Tibetan Govt for them but to follow his teacher's instructions to serve them.

In order for Samdhong Rinpoche's work with Dalai Lama to be possible for the last ten years as Kalong Tripa, he had to 'abandon' his Shugden practice. But now that he has retired, he has started again.

Many lamas both senior and younger are practicing Dorje Shugden secretly and always have been. How can anyone abandon the practice they recieved from HH Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and root gurus? Real practitioners cannot abandon their practices under any political pressures or abandon their teachers. They just go underground. The trend is so that you just do your practice quietly for now. HH Dalai Lama has a few years left sorry to say, after his passing, the practice will re-emerge stronger and bigger with the advent of internet. Even young spiritual leaders like both Karmapas (the one born in Tibet and the other from Delhi) make no mention of Shugden ever. Even the previous Karmapa never mentioned anything against Shugden. It is the sign of the times. You practice quietly for now due to political pressures and when the time comes, you openly practice. This time will come for sure.

A friend of mind text me this message that Samdhong Rinpoche has taken up his Shugden practice again after reading it on phayul.com's forum.

I guess he is following in the footsteps of Gaden Trisur Lungrik Namgayl who after retiring as Gaden Tripa joined Shar Gaden. Until now HH Dalai Lama has not mentioned or commented on Gaden Trisur for this act. HH Dalai Lama has been quiet. Gaden Trisur is one of the highest ranking lamas of the Gelug School and strong practitioner of Shugden. Gaden Trisur is such a powerful example of learning, practice and guru devotion.



Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: Heartspoon on September 22, 2011, 08:23:19 AM
It's so sad

A few years ago, a greatly renowned physician took residence in my village.
On one hand, he was so immeasurably better than the ones who already practiced here.
On the other hand, he had very powerful political protectors.

For the benefit of all of us, the greatly renowned physician and his very powerful protectors
 took steps to either chase away the other physicians or otherwise to ruin altogether their reputation.

Some of us, the villagers, being so ignorant, and solely for our benefit, they had no choice but to resort to all kinds of punishments to force upon us their powerful medicine.

It was really a hard time for most of us: you see, we never thought that segregating members of the community, depriving us of any kind of medicine or of any kind of food, separating the members of a same family, or even worse splitting the sangha was such a bright idea.

They told us not to worry: you can't understand now, you will understand as soon as you will be cured of your illnesses.
Well, after some years, for those of us who were able to stay alive, our health was really in bad shape.

And now an extraordinary event took place:

The greatly renowned physician who took residence in my village made the following public statement:

During all of those years that we had no choice but to take his medicine, he himself abstained of taking it...You see, he wished to keep a pure samaya whith the physician who empowered his own practice... and taking himself this medicine would have been very bad for his health.

So, first he himself stayed healthy, and above all he rejoices to have set such an admirable precedent for us to follow. Because, as he said himself, he kept such a pure practice that we should try our bestt to follow in his footsteps.

Sadly, he didn't give us any hint as to which medicine would now allow us to cure our fellow villagers, nor did he give us any hint as to how cure the dead ones, the split sangha or the husbands and wives who were separated.

Strangely, I didn't hear that the physician who empowered him was rejoicing at the thought of such extraordinary achievements, I must be deaf...
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: thaimonk on September 26, 2011, 12:55:23 PM
It is very exciting to think of Samdhong Rinpoche taking up his Shugden practice again. Anything is possible. HH Dalai Lama allows the current incarnation of Trijang Rinpoche to continue his practice of Dorje Shugden. So if Trijang Rinpoche is allowed, why not others more and more as time goes on.
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: dsiluvu on September 26, 2011, 03:34:26 PM
Wonder which High Lama will come out next to shock the Tibetan Govt... now where's the excuse for this?

And if Samdhong Rinpoche is going to continue his practice of DS, isn't it just logical so will his entourage and students?
Title: Re: Surprising speech by Samdhong Rinpoche
Post by: Mana on September 26, 2011, 03:47:26 PM
Wonder which High Lama will come out next to shock the Tibetan Govt... now where's the excuse for this?

And if Samdhong Rinpoche is going to continue his practice of DS, isn't it just logical so will his entourage and students?

It's not that hard to believe Samdhong Rinpoche could be practicing Shugden. It's pervasive knowledge announced by Gangchen Rinpoche that Samdhong Rinpoche is a emanation of Dorje Shugden. This is a well recognized fact in Tibet prior to 1959.

Mana