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General Buddhism => General Buddhism => Topic started by: WoselTenzin on July 06, 2011, 12:33:12 PM

Title: Why do we continue to deceive ourselves?
Post by: WoselTenzin on July 06, 2011, 12:33:12 PM
We innately hold on to the view that:-

1. Everything is permanent

2  We are going to live for a long time.

We may intellectually know that everything is impermanence and death is uncertain but we do not really believe it.

Isn't it strange that most of us continue to deceive ourselves even though we know the truth and set ourselves up for more sufferings?

Why do we find it so difficult to believe the truth of impermanence and the uncertainty of the time of death?



Title: Re: Why do continue to deceive ourselves?
Post by: Positive Change on July 06, 2011, 02:35:57 PM
We innately hold on to the view that:-

1. Everything is permanent

2  We are going to live for a long time.

We may intellectually know that everything is impermanence and death is uncertain but we do not really believe it.

Isn't it strange that most of us continue to deceive ourselves even though we know the truth and set ourselves up for more sufferings?

Why do we find it so difficult to believe the truth of impermanence and the uncertainty of the time of death?



Dear Wosel Tenzin,

On the contrary, I reckon we all know one only true fact the day we are born, is that we WILL die. But somehow we actually choose to "ignore" or "evade" the subject. Hence I disagree that we think death is uncertain. We all know that death is certain!

Having said that we tend to delude ourselves and hide from the inevitable by surrounding ourselves and hiding behind samsaric pleasures. It is when we are close to death that we realize... oh oh... or for some they still think "its ok I enjoyed living". Sigh!

How strong our mind is that we can even spin a lie to ourselves concerning our mortality. Imagine using that same mind for the benefit of others or for one's spiritual journey!
Title: Re: Why do we continue to deceive ourselves?
Post by: Helena on July 06, 2011, 03:56:02 PM
If I dare say - WE LIVE IN DENIAL!

We know for certain that we will die but we act like we are going to live forever, imagining there is always going to be a tomorrow waiting for us patiently to come around.

Despite all our education and intellect, our minds are really quite narrow and rigid. We are not as open minded as we like to believe. Imagine if it was not for Youtube and people loading all kinds of videos on UFOs, Ghosts, Hauntings, Psychic abilities, etc - we would still be trapped in that old rigid thinking that THESE THINGS really do not exist. I bet some people are still holding onto that view.

We like to think in such absolute terms and we tend to depend too much on visuals. Because we see something, our minds start to jump into conclusions and passing judgements. Unfortunately, we do not realise that our conclusions and judgements are limited by our own experience, knowledge and past upbringing. We can only relate and identify with what we are familiar with.

Honestly, without Buddhism opening up our minds to the various possibilities, the different realms and the countless different ways of delusions we are creating and living every single moment of our lives - we'd still be living in a world of illusions.


Title: Re: Why do we continue to deceive ourselves?
Post by: DSFriend on July 06, 2011, 05:16:27 PM

Why do we find it so difficult to believe the truth of impermanence and the uncertainty of the time of death?


This question have crossed my mind countless times. here's a little of what i've thought of ...

Impermanence can be observed on a daily basis..it doesn't need any clairvoyance or special scientific tools to show us.

Why is it so difficult for us to believe. Well, Buddha is undoubtedly right about teaching impermanence and he also taught on ignorance, the root of all our sufferings.

Just knowing is not enough and we will continue to experience the difficulties to believe in the dharma because we do not continuously contemplate on the disbenefits and benefits of the way we think, the way we live. Thus on a daily basis, we do not rehabituate/infuse our thinking with the dharma we have learnt....

I read somewhere before from the zen tradition that ignorance is defined as assertion of self will.

I guess as long as we assert self will, we make our own reality. Therefore we create our own obstacles to believe the truth.

Buddha taught us that we must question the teachings for ourselves. I find that it is sad that often times, we question so much that we get no where. In the gelug monasteries that I know of, it is well known that monks engage in daily debates. They are taught how to debate and it is guided on a daily basis by the debate master.  I find lay people's "debates" more as arguments instead of a form of learning...a way to further reinforce our own ignorance and self will!
Title: Re: Why do we continue to deceive ourselves?
Post by: pgdharma on July 07, 2011, 09:07:07 AM
If I dare say - WE LIVE IN DENIAL!

We know for certain that we will die but we act like we are going to live forever, imagining there is always going to be a tomorrow waiting for us patiently to come around.

Despite all our education and intellect, our minds are really quite narrow and rigid. We are not as open minded as we like to believe. Imagine if it was not for Youtube and people loading all kinds of videos on UFOs, Ghosts, Hauntings, Psychic abilities, etc - we would still be trapped in that old rigid thinking that THESE THINGS really do not exist. I bet some people are still holding onto that view.

We like to think in such absolute terms and we tend to depend too much on visuals. Because we see something, our minds start to jump into conclusions and passing judgements. Unfortunately, we do not realise that our conclusions and judgements are limited by our own experience, knowledge and past upbringing. We can only relate and identify with what we are familiar with.

Honestly, without Buddhism opening up our minds to the various possibilities, the different realms and the countless different ways of delusions we are creating and living every single moment of our lives - we'd still be living in a world of illusions.



In general most of us live in denial hoping that if we deny it will not happen to us. We may think we are young, strong, healthy and we are not going to die yet. However, death is certain and life is uncertain. In order to face the fact that we are going to die anytime, it will be good to practice death meditation. It may be difficult in the beginning but practice makes perfect.  Every time when I attended a "wake", I imagine myself inside that coffin and contemplate when my time will come,how long more will I be alive and what and where will be my next rebirth.  By being aware that death can happen anytime, I try to put in more effort in my spiritual practice with the hope that when death comes it will not be so scary.
Title: Re: Why do we continue to deceive ourselves?
Post by: dsiluvu on July 08, 2011, 04:15:01 AM
I think we fail to realise impermanence because we are basically because we forget,  and too comfortable being in our comfort zone. If anyone ask us to do something out of the ordinary to what we are used to do, immediately most of us will react negatively or hesitantly. Let's not think about our own death, perhaps it is better to think about our loved one's death... how well would we cope when it really happens. If we contemplate now, it will be like a measuring stick to show us how deeply attached we are.
Title: Re: Why do we continue to deceive ourselves?
Post by: Big Uncle on July 08, 2011, 06:24:50 AM
That's true! We live in denial! I read that we are too distracted. We are just too lazy to do anything about it. Lazy here means being caught up, wrapped up in our endless pursuit of enjoyment, gratification, money, sex, jobs, careers, businesses, status and power. Some of us also allow family, relationships and everything that holds us from pursuing a higher spiritual goal. We are really lost in these pursuits. These pursuits makes not see the reality of it. That everything is really impermanent and ultimately betrays us because we can't take them with us when we die. That's what I read of what the Buddha mentioned as one of the three types of laziness.
Title: Re: Why do we continue to deceive ourselves?
Post by: Positive Change on July 08, 2011, 06:49:22 AM
Yes.... Denial and Deception! Having said that, how do I actually "get out" of it? Sure it is easy to say, I understand it is all impermanent however, when we are neck deep in the rut, it is hard to dig or claw our way out. Or so it seems! Perhaps it is enough to have the a firm realisation that these attachments DO NOT make us happy or lead us anywhere and "continue" (so to speak) with our attachments BUT not be attached?

Sure we have bills to pay, loans to settle, what have you's... but letting go is not about letting go of our responsibilities. I think it is about letting go of the perception that it is the defining factor in our lives. And with this mindset, our "problems" (even as they exist) really become manageable. It is this firm conviction and "belief" I find that is the tool which gives us the power to overcome our obstacles AND our attachments.
Title: Re: Why do we continue to deceive ourselves?
Post by: triesa on July 08, 2011, 08:43:50 AM
Besides all the denials and deceptions......I agree with what pgdharma has mentioned above.

Perhaps we should engage in meditation on death. If we do this daily, it only makes sense and it is a natural progress that we will eventually realise that whatever we do in this life for ourselves........ job, family, money, children, houses, cars, holidays....etc etc, we will not be able to take any of these with us upon death.

So then what would really help us upon death? It is only our spiritual attainements and realizations, if any. So all the more we should engage in dharma practices while we still can.
Title: Re: Why do we continue to deceive ourselves?
Post by: kurava on July 08, 2011, 12:14:35 PM

Why do we find it so difficult to believe the truth of impermanence and the uncertainty of the time of death?


Because we'll be frozen with fear when faced with the above reality, because we choose to focus on temporary and short term benefits and because we don't know how to transform the realization into a positive force that motivates us not to waste a single moment of our life !
Title: Re: Why do we continue to deceive ourselves?
Post by: Positive Change on July 09, 2011, 08:51:18 AM

Why do we find it so difficult to believe the truth of impermanence and the uncertainty of the time of death?


Because we'll be frozen with fear when faced with the above reality, because we choose to focus on temporary and short term benefits and because we don't know how to transform the realization into a positive force that motivates us not to waste a single moment of our life !

I think it is "easier" to not face reality for most of us... because when reality sets in we need to move on and progress and our inertness and laziness keeps us in or so called comfort zones of existence. Living day in day out, doing very mundane things which do not bring us happiness in the long run but only create more unhappiness.

What have we pursued in our lives that we can truly say has made us happy? The car? The house? The superbike? The Golf Club membership? The Job? The Armani Suit? The new pair of Cavalli Boots? Even if we think (deceive) ourselves into believing these bring us happiness, what happens when the inevitable comes around... can we take it with us?

All the effort in continuous pursuits for nothingness... Sure, I am as guilty as the next person but I prayer with my protectors help and Guru's guidance I can to a certain extent transform myself enough to gain certain realisations which will free me from this cycle. If not this lifetime... definitely my future lifetimes in order for me to realise this fact much sooner than later...
Title: Re: Why do we continue to deceive ourselves?
Post by: hope rainbow on July 13, 2011, 11:37:57 AM
I think it is "easier" to not face reality for most of us... because when reality sets in we need to move on and progress and our inertness and laziness keeps us in or so called comfort zones of existence.

PC,
Perhaps, it helps to think of what are the causes for us to enjoy "comfort zones".
Just by looking at the world around, the visible world of human fellows, it is clear that to have "comfort zones" is a luxury that most our fellow humans do not even have access to.
Thus, in fact, even if we want to enjoy our comfort zones, we must get out of it to create causes for us to have them.
And as we are at it, it might be that, at the end, we realize we did not really need these comfort zones anyway, because the true comfort is when we know we have helped others. That is a real comfort zone I think.
Title: Re: Why do we continue to deceive ourselves?
Post by: WoselTenzin on July 14, 2011, 07:56:16 AM
I think it is "easier" to not face reality for most of us... because when reality sets in we need to move on and progress and our inertness and laziness keeps us in or so called comfort zones of existence.

PC,
Perhaps, it helps to think of what are the causes for us to enjoy "comfort zones".
Just by looking at the world around, the visible world of human fellows, it is clear that to have "comfort zones" is a luxury that most our fellow humans do not even have access to.
Thus, in fact, even if we want to enjoy our comfort zones, we must get out of it to create causes for us to have them.
And as we are at it, it might be that, at the end, we realize we did not really need these comfort zones anyway, because the true comfort is when we know we have helped others. That is a real comfort zone I think.

Actually, our "comfort zone" itself is deceptive because at the end of the day, attachment to this "comfort zone" give us nothing but suffering.  Supposed we are attached to our "comfort zone" of doing very little out of laziness, in the short term we may "enjoy" the comfort and get away with it but in the long run we will be the ones that lose out, fail and suffer.

In any aspect of life, in order to succeed in anything, we must do what is expected of us or even more than that.  Otherwise, failure will be our result because we have not put in the effort to acquire the necessary knowledge, skills or experience to succeed.  This applies in our secular as well as spiritual life.  Therefore, attachment to "comfort zone" that provides short term comfort is deceptive because it set us up for future failure and sufferings.
Title: Re: Why do we continue to deceive ourselves?
Post by: hope rainbow on July 21, 2011, 03:56:44 AM
In any aspect of life, in order to succeed in anything, we must do what is expected of us or even more than that.  Otherwise, failure will be our result because we have not put in the effort to acquire the necessary knowledge, skills or experience to succeed.  This applies in our secular as well as spiritual life.  Therefore, attachment to "comfort zone" that provides short term comfort is deceptive because it set us up for future failure and sufferings.

Thank you WT, I agree with what you wrote.
What, though, if my comfort zone is Buddhism and serving my Guru?
Title: Re: Why do we continue to deceive ourselves?
Post by: Positive Change on July 21, 2011, 06:26:37 AM
In any aspect of life, in order to succeed in anything, we must do what is expected of us or even more than that.  Otherwise, failure will be our result because we have not put in the effort to acquire the necessary knowledge, skills or experience to succeed.  This applies in our secular as well as spiritual life.  Therefore, attachment to "comfort zone" that provides short term comfort is deceptive because it set us up for future failure and sufferings.

Thank you WT, I agree with what you wrote.
What, though, if my comfort zone is Buddhism and serving my Guru?

Dear Hope Rainbow...

If Buddhism and serving my Guru does become one's comfort zone so to speak... I think its beautiful! Because the essence of our practice will then be our main objective. In the regular sense, our "attachment" to our comfort zone is normally something we have a problem letting go off... hence if we truly put our whole heart into our spiritual practice and not have one foot in and the other foot out, it is something to rejoice!
Title: Re: Why do we continue to deceive ourselves?
Post by: samayakeeper on July 21, 2011, 01:15:03 PM
All of know that we will die one day, it's just that the day of reckoning is always pushed behind our mind. We are always so busy trying to make ourselves "happy" living out our desires that the thought never crosses our mind. In some culture, it's taboo to speak of it. We refused to face the truth that one day everything will end in this life. And we continue to spend our time enjoying and be 'happy'. Some of us think that we will be calm and collected when death comes a-knocking. Will we?

I am scared stiff at the thought of death but much more where I will go.
Title: Re: Why do we continue to deceive ourselves?
Post by: hope rainbow on August 06, 2011, 02:57:19 AM
SK,

I came across somebody recently who insisted on his conviction (that he said he founded on logic) that there could not be anything after death, that death was the end, and that his thinking was based on science and not "beliefs", and that he was not afraid of his death AT ALL.

Well, I say this:

1. to think that there is nothing after death is nothing short of a BELIEF,
2. because it is not based on facts (what facts?),
3. and not based on logic neither (what logic?),
4. and I conclude this: to come to such CONVICTION with BIAS "evidence" demonstrates clearly that this person is definitely scared of his own death and had to come up with a made-up belief to resolve (temporarily) that anxiety.
5. I call this deception.

Title: Re: Why do we continue to deceive ourselves?
Post by: WisdomBeing on August 06, 2011, 02:58:57 PM
it's just real simple for me... we continue to deceive ourselves because we just don't really believe in karma. It's because karma has a time delay. If we touch something hot and we get burnt immediately, we won't touch it again. However because we do an action now and we don't know when the effect will come in future, we live in the deception that the effect may not happen. That's why we drink, we smoke, we eat junk food and do all sorts of stupid things that we KNOW for sure will result in our health deteriorating. Yet we still do it. So why is it so difficult to think why people don't care what will happen in our after life!

why do we continue to deceive ourselves? because we're stupid. that's why.

Title: Re: Why do we continue to deceive ourselves?
Post by: Positive Change on August 07, 2011, 08:11:39 AM
it's just real simple for me... we continue to deceive ourselves because we just don't really believe in karma. It's because karma has a time delay. If we touch something hot and we get burnt immediately, we won't touch it again. However because we do an action now and we don't know when the effect will come in future, we live in the deception that the effect may not happen. That's why we drink, we smoke, we eat junk food and do all sorts of stupid things that we KNOW for sure will result in our health deteriorating. Yet we still do it. So why is it so difficult to think why people don't care what will happen in our after life!

why do we continue to deceive ourselves? because we're stupid. that's why.


Thank you Wisdom Being... This is absolutely right! And to make it worse, we may even try to deceive ourselves into thinking that because we do not remember our previous lives, that we will not remember our future one hence there is real no need to worry about karma as it wont happen to "us" so to speak. "It will be me but then again it wont be me because I wont know any better... like I am now...". Hence the cycle of suffering keeps on happening as we continue to collect karma in this samsaric existence!
Title: Re: Why do we continue to deceive ourselves?
Post by: vajrastorm on August 07, 2011, 08:33:05 AM
Yes, we know, intellectually, that everything is impermanent and that death is certain, though we are uncertain about when death will come. Yet we continue to deceive ourselves that death will not happen to us tomorrow or soon. We continue to grasp at all the things we desire and at relationships we are strongly attached to, believing(in our deluded minds)that they are there for us and forever.

However, there are moments of realizations, especially when we hear a powerful teaching on Death and Impermanence. We also panic that death can also happen to us anytime when a close friend or relative of ours falls sick and dies at a relatively young age, or dies suddenly in an accident. But these realizations only last for a while. Then the distractions of this life will pull us away and we will again be caught up in the affairs of this life and all thoughts and fears of death and Impermanence will fade from our memory.

I think  the only way for us to make this realization remain firm and stable in our minds is what has been urged and advised by a great Master - do a daily meditation on Death. Like that, we are being made to focus on Death and Impermanence as a reality as opposed to the lack of essence and impermanence of all the objects of our daily mundane pursuits and grasping.
Title: Re: Why do we continue to deceive ourselves?
Post by: hope rainbow on August 07, 2011, 09:14:14 AM
Yes, we know, intellectually, that everything is impermanent and that death is certain, though we are uncertain about when death will come. Yet we continue to deceive ourselves that death will not happen to us tomorrow or soon. We continue to grasp at all the things we desire and at relationships we are strongly attached to, believing(in our deluded minds)that they are there for us and forever.

However, there are moments of realizations, especially when we hear a powerful teaching on Death and Impermanence. We also panic that death can also happen to us anytime when a close friend or relative of ours falls sick and dies at a relatively young age, or dies suddenly in an accident. But these realizations only last for a while. Then the distractions of this life will pull us away and we will again be caught up in the affairs of this life and all thoughts and fears of death and Impermanence will fade from our memory.

I think  the only way for us to make this realization remain firm and stable in our minds is what has been urged and advised by a great Master - do a daily meditation on Death. Like that, we are being made to focus on Death and Impermanence as a reality as opposed to the lack of essence and impermanence of all the objects of our daily mundane pursuits and grasping.

Dear Vajrastorm,
What to say to people that do a meditation on death but  end up their meditation with the following conclusion:
"death is around the corner, therefore I must make lots of money fast, enjoy parties and sex partners, make lots of friends, try all the food, travel, go on holiday, listen to music, go to concerts, go to the cinema, enjoy cars, make a family quick-quick, sail on the seven seas, climb the Everest, fly a plane, etc... Life is too short, let's enjoy now... "
Title: Re: Why do we continue to deceive ourselves?
Post by: diamond girl on August 08, 2011, 05:02:39 PM
it's just real simple for me... we continue to deceive ourselves because we just don't really believe in karma. It's because karma has a time delay. If we touch something hot and we get burnt immediately, we won't touch it again. However because we do an action now and we don't know when the effect will come in future, we live in the deception that the effect may not happen. That's why we drink, we smoke, we eat junk food and do all sorts of stupid things that we KNOW for sure will result in our health deteriorating. Yet we still do it. So why is it so difficult to think why people don't care what will happen in our after life!

why do we continue to deceive ourselves? because we're stupid. that's why.



THANK YOU Wisdom Being! As I was reading all this I could only come up with one answer - We are STUPID that is why we can continue to deceive ourselves. In all honesty, there are times I tell myself I am stupid. When I actually surrender and embrace what Buddhism teaches me about impermanence and karma, it is so liberating to live!
Title: Re: Why do we continue to deceive ourselves?
Post by: Big Uncle on August 22, 2011, 05:20:55 PM
There are many forms of deception but the deepest and most difficult deception is self-deception. This deep-seated deception is symbolize with a pig in Buddhism. It is fat, healthy and extremely robust against all our feeble attempts to slaughter it with our superficial spiritual practice. Self-deception could be in the form of denial of impermanent nature of our bodies, wealth and so forth for those not in the Dharma. For those in the Dharma, self-deception could be in the form of contentment of our spiritual practice or even disdain of others who do so much less spiritual practice. Almost everything spiritual we do is laced with self-deception and its the direct opponent to wisdom and Dorje Shugden. Hence, continuous propitiation of Dorje Shugden will create tremendous amounts of merits to finally kill that fat pig with that meandering wisdom sword of his.
Title: Re: Why do we continue to deceive ourselves?
Post by: Klein on September 14, 2011, 09:46:06 PM
We innately hold on to the view that:-

1. Everything is permanent

2  We are going to live for a long time.

We may intellectually know that everything is impermanence and death is uncertain but we do not really believe it.

Isn't it strange that most of us continue to deceive ourselves even though we know the truth and set ourselves up for more sufferings?

Why do we find it so difficult to believe the truth of impermanence and the uncertainty of the time of death?





I think most of us are in denial because we'd rather continue operating from our old habits. Changing ourselves require too much effort and we'd rather settle for short term "happiness". It's easier to stay where we are. Our fears and insecurities also play a huge part in this state of denial. There are many times that we need to learn things the hard way before we "wake up" to reality.

That's why we hear about people's lives changing dramatically after they have a near death experience. They realise what's more important in life coz life is really fragile and short.
Title: Re: Why do we continue to deceive ourselves?
Post by: ratanasutra on September 15, 2011, 04:03:13 AM
i have lot of friends that life just simply good, everything went well, smooth and they seldom have problem. They all understand what is karma and how is work, they know there is reincarnation and life after death. Knowing and understand all these doesn't help them to realise about it.  therefore they enjoy and wasting time in their life as there is no realization.

sometime there is death happen with one of member of family but they view it as normal as they are understand cycle of life of birth, age, sick and death.   Hence they continue their life without seeking for spiritual path as they are full of ignorant.

i will say that because of their ignorant and lack of merit that bring them nowhere.

Title: Re: Why do we continue to deceive ourselves?
Post by: dorjedakini on September 15, 2011, 10:26:55 AM
i have lot of friends that life just simply good, everything went well, smooth and they seldom have problem. They all understand what is karma and how is work, they know there is reincarnation and life after death. Knowing and understand all these doesn't help them to realise about it.  therefore they enjoy and wasting time in their life as there is no realization.

sometime there is death happen with one of member of family but they view it as normal as they are understand cycle of life of birth, age, sick and death.   Hence they continue their life without seeking for spiritual path as they are full of ignorant.

i will say that because of their ignorant and lack of merit that bring them nowhere.



We can make offering to our Lama and Shugden, daily in our prayer dedicate the merits to them to practice Dharma. Some of the members we came across which their nature of work or business is killing, their family business is survive on this kind of business, there is no way for them to stop immediately. What they do is to make a lots of offerings, pujas to gain a lot of merits so that they do not need to replying on "killing" to earn a living.

Our effort will not be wasted, my Lama told me that if we tirelessly sharing Dharma and Shugden to people:
First, at the beginning they might not want to follow or believe, but once they heard about it, the seed is planted in their mind stream; Second, we created the cause for the "right" people to meet us and come into Dharma through our sharing;
Third, we created the karma to have the power of speech, in future when we talk about Dharma, our speech can move and change people's mind into Dharma.


Title: Re: Why do we continue to deceive ourselves?
Post by: WoselTenzin on October 27, 2011, 07:16:54 PM
In any aspect of life, in order to succeed in anything, we must do what is expected of us or even more than that.  Otherwise, failure will be our result because we have not put in the effort to acquire the necessary knowledge, skills or experience to succeed.  This applies in our secular as well as spiritual life.  Therefore, attachment to "comfort zone" that provides short term comfort is deceptive because it set us up for future failure and sufferings.

Thank you WT, I agree with what you wrote.
What, though, if my comfort zone is Buddhism and serving my Guru?

Dear hope rainbow, In practising Buddhism and serving our guru, we will contionuously be challenged to practise the qualities of an enlightened mind such as kindness, compassion, generosity, patience, effort, moral discipline, wisdom etc.  As most of us are far from having perfected these qualities, we will be challenged when confronted with daily situations that is not in line with our comfort zone.

If you are fortunate enough to be within close proximity of your Guru, your Guru will continuously challenge you and push your buttons to bring you to the next level and you will be tested to put those qualities into practice. The real meaning of serving our guru is to transform our mind so that we are in a better position to bring benefit to ourselves and others.

My feeling is that if you feel that practising Buddhism and serving your guru is your comfort zone, perhaps you may have misunderstood what it means to practise Buddhism and serve your Guru. .