dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: LosangKhyentse on May 30, 2011, 12:02:18 AM
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The previous Dudjom Rinpoche (pictured below) was well known to indiscriminately speak against Dorje Shugden. He seemed to be quite a sectarian anti-Gelug person. He had no right to criticize any Gelug protectors or the Gelug Lineage in any way. He was even arrested in North India and thrown into jail for a short while, till the Tibetan Govt in the 70's intervened and got him out.
He built a small Monastery in Kathmandu that was infamous for having a Dorje Drolod statue stepping on Shugden and tearing Shugden's heart out. Previous 17th Karmapa was very displeased with this representation according to Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche's writings. In Tibet there is no such representation with Dorje Drolod stepping on Shugden. It was a new creation by Dudjom Rinpoche while he was in Nepal. He created alot of negative sentiments with his anit-Shugden rhetorics. This was way before the ban. This was already happening in the late 80's.
Dudjom Rinpoche also came up with Anti-Shugden chakras (pictured below). You take these chakras, fold and tied with multi colored string. Then pujas done according to Dudjom Rinpoche. Afterwards, the person wearing this chakra is protected from all 'harm' and 'ill influence' of Dorje Shugden. It was a small rage in Kathmandu for a short while and then died down. I mean, think about it, there are millions of negative powerful spirits, but there is a special chakra just to counter Shugden? I mean they really are fearful of Shugden. Shugden sure is a super powerful being.
I find it quite amusing and at the same time interesting that a so called high ranking personage such as Dudjom Rinpoche would bring himself to create such chakras and protect people against Shugden. If Shugden was or is a evil spirit, I don't think a chakra would protect anyone. How can a folded piece of paper be more powerful than fire pujas and other rites? Fire pujas and rituals have been done against Shugden many times. How come so many high ranking lamas cannot eliminate Shugden? Is Shugden more powerful than all of them? If he is, that does not say much for these Lamas. Think about it, if Shugden is powerful enough to harm the Dalai Lama (of course Shugden harms nobody), how can a piece a paper with scorpions protect you ? Doesn't make sense in any way. Unless Shugden is not an evil spirit, but an attained being therefore invincible.
The chakras are very interesting nevertheless.
TK
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I am so sorry to say this but, these chakras make Dudjom Rinpoche look below his station. Below his status. It makes him look petty. I do not mean to criticize him, but grand lamas such as himself should not concern themselves with Dorje Shugden at all.
Look at the 16th Karmapa who never uttered one word to criticize Shugden. In fact Karmapa was very close and friendly with the previous Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. HH Dilgo Kyentse Rinpoche never criticized Shugden ever. HH Penor Rinpoche never criticized Shugden either. Great lamas. Great examples.
Dudjom Rinpoche criticizing Shugden hurts many people. I do not mean ill-will to Dudjom Rinpoche, but it hurts to know he would do this.
Sorry.
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Such a shame, Eveything is an appearance to mind and by this appearance one can see the state of the mind apprehending such. :o
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How incredibly rude!
The chakra looks so childish, silly and ridiculous. It doesn't make any sense, just a senseless sketch that's meant to protect you from something that will and can help & protect you!
It's okay if you choose not to practice Dorje Shugden, but making up anti-Shugden chakra's? Why not petition or plea with the Dalai Lama to subdue him? Or Dudjom Rinpoche himself attempt to subdue Dorje Shugden?
I've actually seen the statue where DS was stepped down (with Dorje Drolod's right foot). It's so insensitive and uncalled for. WHAT GOOD CAN COME OUT OF PUTTING OTHERS DOWN? Let alone an enlightened being.
This is an irritating thread.
I can imagine how those who wear the anti-DS chakra will react if terrible things happen to them even after wearing the silly chakra. They'd think that Dorje Shugden got to them. IT'S CALLED YOUR BAD KARMA, BABE.
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It's really not befitting for Dudjom Rinpoche to have created such a chakra and the altered form of Dorje Drolod. Moreover, Dudjom Rinpoche was once the head of Nyingma. :(
Funny how they claim Shugden practitioners are sectarian, look at who is really taking sectarian-related actions to make a stand.
I have to say this made me lose respect for Dudjom Rinpoche as a lama. However, I am glad H.H. Penor Rinpoche, also from the Nyingma sect were sympathetic to Shugden monks. Read the thread here: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=666.15
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Its amazing really Gelugs are often accused of sectarianism yet I havent heard one in my own personal experience make disparaging remarks against Nyingmapas or anyone from any other tradition this is certainly a negative action from Dudjom Rinpoche and is unashamedly sectarian its people who perform silly actions like these that cause suffering. Much like Namkai Norbu whom often makes disparaging remarks against Dorje shugden and his followers and his students ive encountered have often been very rude and ignorant once they know you practise Dorje shugden actions like these foster suffering.
Mother always said if you dont have anything nice to say...Of course If one is continually engaging in false speech againsts other it is best to act in accordence with the Eight Verses of mind training and do ones best compassionatly to cause them to cease such an action as the future result of suffering will defeat their wishes for happiness. :-\
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Well, hello... ??? It seems that nowadays the former Head of the Nyingmapas can be criticized or downplayed here, as people reproach or belittle Dudjom.
Please inform us if, by these new policies, the Head of the Heads, the Dalai, can be criticized or downplayed also.
Or inform us why there isn't a similar policy of "Shugden, Dalai and Dudjom spreading the Dharma together"?
Shouldn't we apply the same standards to both Dudjom and Dalai. If Gurus are beyond reproach, then surely we have a double standard at hand.
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Well, hello... ??? It seems that nowadays the former Head of the Nyingmapas can be criticized or downplayed here, as people reproach or belittle Dudjom.
Please inform us if, by these new policies, the Head of the Heads, the Dalai, can be criticized or downplayed also.
Or inform us why there isn't a similar policy of "Shugden, Dalai and Dudjom spreading the Dharma together"?
Shouldn't we apply the same standards to both Dudjom and Dalai. If Gurus are beyond reproach, then surely we have a double standard at hand.
What is your silly little problem, Zhalmed Pawo.
You only ever post whenever the issue is anti-Dalai Lama related, and have a massive hang up about the forum and how they run things.
Suggestion? Get off it, and write somewhere else. Perhaps start a diary and write all of your ill-willed feelings in it. Let it out, it'd be good for you. Instead of spewing your hate over a website where people have clearly worked hard to create.
You can write whatever you want in your daily diary. You can even decorate the cover and write your own rules and regulations about what should be written in and what shouldn't.
Then debate with yourself if you write "the wrong things" on some days.
Why not write something constructive instead? You seem to be very well-read on a lot of Dharma teachings. Share it. Stop putting down the website. Since I've been participating on the forum, your words have been getting a lot more tired and boring.
Come on, share something interesting. Perhaps you may know something about Dudjom Rinpoche that's positive? Share that!
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@jessica jameson
Yes what you said is so correct, and matches what was once said by my lama also.
If one does not have the karma to be harmed even if they are in the midst of dangerous situations nothing happens to them.
Meanwhile for some who is in a safe situation but has the karma to be harmed, he will get harmed one way or another!
I saw a small temple in yes of the imagery Dorje Drollo stepping on Dorje Shugden, if Dorje Shugden was truly an evil spirit it can never overcome the ultimate truth, that most enlightened lamas have realised. IMHO I think this view gives power for the lamas to overcome spirits and so forth. if Dorje Shugden was truly an evil spirit it should not be too hard to ward it off or send it away through the enlightened lamas.
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Well, hello... ??? It seems that nowadays the former Head of the Nyingmapas can be criticized or downplayed here, as people reproach or belittle Dudjom.
Please inform us if, by these new policies, the Head of the Heads, the Dalai, can be criticized or downplayed also.
Or inform us why there isn't a similar policy of "Shugden, Dalai and Dudjom spreading the Dharma together"?
Shouldn't we apply the same standards to both Dudjom and Dalai. If Gurus are beyond reproach, then surely we have a double standard at hand.
What is your silly little problem, Zhalmed Pawo.
You only ever post whenever the issue is anti-Dalai Lama related, and have a massive hang up about the forum and how they run things.
Suggestion? Get off it, and write somewhere else. Perhaps start a diary and write all of your ill-willed feelings in it. Let it out, it'd be good for you. Instead of spewing your hate over a website where people have clearly worked hard to create.
You can write whatever you want in your daily diary. You can even decorate the cover and write your own rules and regulations about what should be written in and what shouldn't.
Then debate with yourself if you write "the wrong things" on some days.
Why not write something constructive instead? You seem to be very well-read on a lot of Dharma teachings. Share it. Stop putting down the website. Since I've been participating on the forum, your words have been getting a lot more tired and boring.
Come on, share something interesting. Perhaps you may know something about Dudjom Rinpoche that's positive? Share that!
Please be reminded to refrain from making personal attacks/name calling towards each other.
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Dear Forum Participants.
Be cautious to not put down other lamas. Sharing facts, findings and your views respectfully are welcomed, but bashing lamas is not allowed in this forum.
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There is a difference between bringing up the issue to disparage and bringing up to inform and explain. What some members and suspended ex-members did there in this forum towards certain lamas were downright disparaging and was a personal attack, what we have here is to bring up the issue as information and for discussion, there is a fundamental difference.
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Well, hello... ??? It seems that nowadays the former Head of the Nyingmapas can be criticized or downplayed here, as people reproach or belittle Dudjom.
Please inform us if, by these new policies, the Head of the Heads, the Dalai, can be criticized or downplayed also.
Or inform us why there isn't a similar policy of "Shugden, Dalai and Dudjom spreading the Dharma together"?
Shouldn't we apply the same standards to both Dudjom and Dalai. If Gurus are beyond reproach, then surely we have a double standard at hand.
Dear Zhalmed Pawo,
I don't think that this thread was criticizing Dudjom Rinpoche or putting him down. Everyone was respectful towards this great Lama. They are not calling him names or being sarcastic towards him in any way. They are merely expressing their disappointment at his actions of creating the statues and chakras. So I don't see why you would say the things that you said here. In fact, you are accusing the forum moderators for having double standards when they have been very fair. Not a good move. In fact, they have been very kind and lenient with your snide remark. Please continue to post and be more constructive with your posts. We are after all in the same Dorje Shugden boat. Please see that.
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Let us focus on the design of these anti shugden chakras. There are 2 scorpions, one above Dorje shugden and one below. Both are trying to swallow Dorje Shugden who is being chained up.
I have never opened any kind of chakras and see what is written on the paper inside but I do not think it is some drawings similar to this which is designed by Dudjom Rinpoche. I find the drawing quite cartoonistic and funny. For Dudjom Rinpoche to think of this, perhaps he was trying seize another quick opportunity to raise some funds for his monastery by selling these chakras............ If Dorje Shugden cannot be subdued by fire pujas and rites conducted by high lamas, I don't think a chakras with two scorpions can subdue Dorje Shugden anyway.
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The chakras cannot have any effect to protect anyone from Shugden as Shugden is not a demon. No chakras can 'protect' you from the blessings of a Buddha such as Shugden, only your closed minds.
Mana
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How many pujas since the time of the Fifth Dalai Lama (350 years) till current times has been done to destroy Shugden? How many hundreds of fire pujas, rituals, binding rituals, excorcisms, wrathful practices done by the Dalai Lamas themselves, regents, heads of other schools of Buddhism, the Mindroling Rinpoches, Sakyas, Namgyal Monastery, Sera Je Monastery??? It is beyond count. Why is it that NOT ONE SINGLE LAMA, MONASTERY OR RITUAL CAN DESTROY, BIND OR CAPTURE DORJE SHUGDEN??? Doesn't it seem futile already so many great lamas like the Dalai Lamas himself have tried to bind Shugden and even he cannot?
What is that saying to you? Shugden is Manjushri beyond a doubt and no harm can ever come to Manjushri. Clear and simple. All the rituals done against Shugden only serve to show you how he cannot be destroyed. If Shugden is a demon, then surely the Dalai Lama would have more power and be able to bind him easily.
With so many rituals, pujas and lamas for 350 years proving ineffective to destroy Shugden, what's one chakra from Dudjom Rinpoche going to do?
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I have to say that I really love the two statements below made by Mana and Thai Monk.
"No chakras can 'protect' you from the blessings of a Buddha such as Shugden, only your closed minds." - Mana
"With so many rituals, pujas and lamas for 350 years proving ineffective to destroy Shugden, what's one chakra from Dudjom Rinpoche going to do?" - Thai Monk
That just sums this whole thread! ;D
Because of closed minds, people will not see what is true and real.
Because of open minds, nothing can mask the truth.
I guess, when minds are closed and gullible, they would need to believe that something can actually protect them (or bring them harm.)
In my experience, nothing brings greater than a mind that's corrupted by ignorance or wrong views.
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I meant to say -
NOTHING BRINGS GREATER HARM THAN A MIND THAT IS CORRUPTED BY IGNORANCE OR WRONG VIEWS.
Hence, if someone says a deity can bring harm, the flock believes and accepts and goes out onto a rampage to 'cleanse' their community of this deity. And if someone believes that a practice can bring harm, then they will go out to condemn it. Unfortunately, no one has the wisdom to even find out more or investigate further. What's worse, no one even bothered to think deeper and reflect on their real Dharma practice.
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I cannot but grin and shake my head in disbelief as I read this post. What a farce! (no disrespect to anyone intended but the whole idea of getting or wanting 'protection' from Dorje Shugden is just so ridiculous) I agree totally with thaimonk about the facts below:
How many pujas since the time of the Fifth Dalai Lama (350 years) till current times has been done to destroy Shugden? How many hundreds of fire pujas, rituals, binding rituals, excorcisms, wrathful practices done by the Dalai Lamas themselves, regents, heads of other schools of Buddhism, the Mindroling Rinpoches, Sakyas, Namgyal Monastery, Sera Je Monastery??? It is beyond count. Why is it that NOT ONE SINGLE LAMA, MONASTERY OR RITUAL CAN DESTROY, BIND OR CAPTURE DORJE SHUGDEN??? Doesn't it seem futile already so many great lamas like the Dalai Lamas himself have tried to bind Shugden and even he cannot?
What is that saying to you? Shugden is Manjushri beyond a doubt and no harm can ever come to Manjushri. Clear and simple. All the rituals done against Shugden only serve to show you how he cannot be destroyed. If Shugden is a demon, then surely the Dalai Lama would have more power and be able to bind him easily.
With so many rituals, pujas and lamas for 350 years proving ineffective to destroy Shugden, what's one chakra from Dudjom Rinpoche going to do?
Moreover, the so called chakras are really silly and cartoon looking. Once again I do not mean no disrespect to the person who created it but surely some quality control is in order??? Surely Dudjom Rinpoche's camp can do a more convincing portrayal of a so called demon protection chakra. Dudjom Rinpoche deserves much better representation... :)
All in all the facts in the quote above dont lie... it is a no brainer really! At least for my puny little mind!
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Oh my goodness this is really hilarious!!!
This is embarrassing. How can someone of such status like Dudjom Rinpoche put himself down to be same like people who are superstitious? It looks like this anti-Shugden chakras are created for those who have very little faith in the Buddhas. I guess Yamantaka chakras are not as powerful as these scorpions??? And I guess their saying is that Dorje Shugden is so POWERFUL more then all our Buddhas and Dharma Protectors.
It is not only not befitting of a high Lama, it shows people that High Lamas are not very effective. Because after all that is done, all those rituals to capture Dorje Shugden all has failed. So now we resort to some bad sketching of scorpions. Are the we that gullible??? Or are taking advantage of the gullible for different agendas???
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@dsiluvu.... you got that right, this is beyond a joke.
Lama's making anti-Buddha chakras, people believing and actually buying them for protection. Come on people wake up! You are buying a protection talisman to protect you from the spirit / demon / evil that is that has been around many many generations, that no High Lama from the past, or even today has been able to do anything about.
Either Buddhas teachings are wrong, or the scriptures are wrong, or the Lama's that taught the pratice are wrong.
Whatever way you look at it these little pieces of paper will not have effect. I don't need any divination, or dough ball ritual to divine the authenticty of these chakras.
Thank you Dudjom Rinpoche for humbling those who bought them and for teaching us how to be selfless for Dorje Shugden.
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I am so sorry to say this but, these chakras make Dudjom Rinpoche look below his station. Below his status. It makes him look petty. I do not mean to criticize him, but grand lamas such as himself should not concern themselves with Dorje Shugden at all.
Look at the 16th Karmapa who never uttered one word to criticize Shugden. In fact Karmapa was very close and friendly with the previous Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. HH Dilgo Kyentse Rinpoche never criticized Shugden ever. HH Penor Rinpoche never criticized Shugden either. Great lamas. Great examples.
Dudjom Rinpoche criticizing Shugden hurts many people. I do not mean ill-will to Dudjom Rinpoche, but it hurts to know he would do this.
Sorry.
I find it hard to believe that a Lama of Dudjom Rinpoche's standing would criticize and put down the faith of others be it DS practice or not. My teacher has always said to never ever criticize the faith of others.
Whatever their faith is, if it helps them and makes them better people, it has served its purpose. Criticizing the faith of others especially by someone of Dudjom Rinpoche's standing is extremely detrimental as it can cast doubts in the minds of its practitioners and bring them away from their practice. How disappointing to such a thing!
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I am so sorry to say this but, these chakras make Dudjom Rinpoche look below his station. Below his status. It makes him look petty. I do not mean to criticize him, but grand lamas such as himself should not concern themselves with Dorje Shugden at all.
Look at the 16th Karmapa who never uttered one word to criticize Shugden. In fact Karmapa was very close and friendly with the previous Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. HH Dilgo Kyentse Rinpoche never criticized Shugden ever. HH Penor Rinpoche never criticized Shugden either. Great lamas. Great examples.
Dudjom Rinpoche criticizing Shugden hurts many people. I do not mean ill-will to Dudjom Rinpoche, but it hurts to know he would do this.
Sorry.
I find it hard to believe that a Lama of Dudjom Rinpoche's standing would criticize and put down the faith of others be it DS practice or not. My teacher has always said to never ever criticize the faith of others.
Whatever their faith is, if it helps them and makes them better people, it has served its purpose. Criticizing the faith of others especially by someone of Dudjom Rinpoche's standing is extremely detrimental as it can cast doubts in the minds of its practitioners and bring them away from their practice. How disappointing to such a thing!
Rain of Adamantine fire....a Nyingmapa authored work explaining how people break their refuge vows when they practise Dorje shugden.
Such much for not critising... :o
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I am so sorry to say this but, these chakras make Dudjom Rinpoche look below his station. Below his status. It makes him look petty. I do not mean to criticize him, but grand lamas such as himself should not concern themselves with Dorje Shugden at all.
Look at the 16th Karmapa who never uttered one word to criticize Shugden. In fact Karmapa was very close and friendly with the previous Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. HH Dilgo Kyentse Rinpoche never criticized Shugden ever. HH Penor Rinpoche never criticized Shugden either. Great lamas. Great examples.
Dudjom Rinpoche criticizing Shugden hurts many people. I do not mean ill-will to Dudjom Rinpoche, but it hurts to know he would do this.
Sorry.
I find it hard to believe that a Lama of Dudjom Rinpoche's standing would criticize and put down the faith of others be it DS practice or not. My teacher has always said to never ever criticize the faith of others.
Whatever their faith is, if it helps them and makes them better people, it has served its purpose. Criticizing the faith of others especially by someone of Dudjom Rinpoche's standing is extremely detrimental as it can cast doubts in the minds of its practitioners and bring them away from their practice. How disappointing to such a thing!
Rain of Adamantine fire....a Nyingmapa authored work explaining how people break their refuge vows when they practise Dorje shugden.
Such much for not critising... :o
Zack, I have a copy of the Tibetan text you mentioned. It was authored by Chadral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche, a close friend of Dudjom Rinpoche. It was an attack on Kyabje Zemey Rinpoche's Yellow Book.
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I am so sorry to say this but, these chakras make Dudjom Rinpoche look below his station. Below his status. It makes him look petty. I do not mean to criticize him, but grand lamas such as himself should not concern themselves with Dorje Shugden at all.
Look at the 16th Karmapa who never uttered one word to criticize Shugden. In fact Karmapa was very close and friendly with the previous Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. HH Dilgo Kyentse Rinpoche never criticized Shugden ever. HH Penor Rinpoche never criticized Shugden either. Great lamas. Great examples.
Dudjom Rinpoche criticizing Shugden hurts many people. I do not mean ill-will to Dudjom Rinpoche, but it hurts to know he would do this.
Sorry.
I find it hard to believe that a Lama of Dudjom Rinpoche's standing would criticize and put down the faith of others be it DS practice or not. My teacher has always said to never ever criticize the faith of others.
Whatever their faith is, if it helps them and makes them better people, it has served its purpose. Criticizing the faith of others especially by someone of Dudjom Rinpoche's standing is extremely detrimental as it can cast doubts in the minds of its practitioners and bring them away from their practice. How disappointing to such a thing!
Rain of Adamantine fire....a Nyingmapa authored work explaining how people break their refuge vows when they practise Dorje shugden.
Such much for not critising... :o
Zack, I have a copy of the Tibetan text you mentioned. It was authored by Chadral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche, a close friend of Dudjom Rinpoche. It was an attack on Kyabje Zemey Rinpoche's Yellow Book.
You do ? this work has yet to be translated into english enlarge I think what was the basis of the response to the yellow book Duke-la ?
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Zack, I have the text but have not read it. It is not really something I want to invest the time trying to understand. If you, or anyone else want a copy of the text, send me a message and I will send it to you. Maybe someone with a better grasp of Tibetan, and much freetime can tackle this.
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Zack, I have the text but have not read it. It is not really something I want to invest the time trying to understand. If you, or anyone else want a copy of the text, send me a message and I will send it to you. Maybe someone with a better grasp of Tibetan, and much freetime can tackle this.
[/quote
Cheers Duke-la I have no grasp of Tibetan what so ever :)
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My first reaction to this chakra was - "You have got to be kidding??"
As I looked longer and noticed the 2 scorpions, it just felt evil and creepy. Personally to me scorpions represent some dark energy. Whether it is Dorje Shugden in the middle or not, the 2 scorpions makes this chakra "evil".
This post below does makes me think and see how such efforts of this chakra, eventhough by a reputable Lama Dudjom Rinpoche is really pointless.
How many pujas since the time of the Fifth Dalai Lama (350 years) till current times has been done to destroy Shugden? How many hundreds of fire pujas, rituals, binding rituals, excorcisms, wrathful practices done by the Dalai Lamas themselves, regents, heads of other schools of Buddhism, the Mindroling Rinpoches, Sakyas, Namgyal Monastery, Sera Je Monastery??? It is beyond count. Why is it that NOT ONE SINGLE LAMA, MONASTERY OR RITUAL CAN DESTROY, BIND OR CAPTURE DORJE SHUGDEN??? Doesn't it seem futile already so many great lamas like the Dalai Lamas himself have tried to bind Shugden and even he cannot?
What is that saying to you? Shugden is Manjushri beyond a doubt and no harm can ever come to Manjushri. Clear and simple. All the rituals done against Shugden only serve to show you how he cannot be destroyed. If Shugden is a demon, then surely the Dalai Lama would have more power and be able to bind him easily.
With so many rituals, pujas and lamas for 350 years proving ineffective to destroy Shugden, what's one chakra from Dudjom Rinpoche going to do?
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This is so creative and hilarious...
Although I have never open any chakra before, but i always heard it contains a mandala of certain deity. But in this "special chakra" we can only see 2 flaming scorpions biting an old man. I really didn't expect this naked old man which drew on the chakra represent the enlightened Buddha of Manjushri.
Agree with a lot above, i don't think a "chakra" is more powerful than any others ritual such as fire puja nor have the power to kill certain "evil spirit". In my understanding of the benefit of having a chakra is giving us protection or prevent us from our daily obstacles, so we can learn more Dharma and benefit more. But this chakra look like it only serve one purpose which is kill Dorje Shugden, but think again, we are Buddhist, we don't encourage killing even if one's had done something really bad. Eg. we don't kill all the worldly gods in Tibet but Guru Rinpoche subdued them and make them swore to protect the Buddha's teaching. If in that case why do we need to kill Dorje Shugden ??
2nd, if all the linage holders from all 4 main sects can't get rid of Dorje Shugden since 350 ago till now, what makes us feel by wearing this chakra will give us protection ? I don't understand at all...
A Buddha will not be kill unless if he/she choose to, just like how Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen choose to be choked by a khata. So basically you can wear 10 or 20 pcs of this chakras but nothing will happen, because we are dealing with an enlighten mind, a Buddha who always give us unconditional love and care can never be killed.
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I have witnessed the process of chakra-making. The main 'ingredient' of a chakra is a special mantra of the deity in a circular fashion, either clockwise or anti clockwise. The mantra is in Tibetan text, and if you read Tibetan, you can read the mantra going round and round. This circular mantra is called a soongkor. The soongkor is then folded with prayers and rituals into a smaller piece of paper and then wrapped in cloth, thread etc followed by a final blessing ritual before the chakra is ready for use.
If the soongkor is of Manjushri's mantra, then we get a Manjushri chakra. If the soongkor is of Tara's mantra, then we get a Tara chakra. So... if the 'soongkor' is of two scorpions, we get scorpion chakra??? ??? And two scorpions on a piece of paper is going to beat the mantra of the King Protector Dorje Shugden (oh yes they have real Dorje Shugden chakras too). Makes no sense at all.
I can't comment on why Dudjom Rinpoche would promote these anti-shugden chakras. Chakras are meant to protect the wearer from negative influences, black magic, spirits, clear obstacles and inteferences etc but I have never known a chakra to be more effective than a puja to solve any particular situation. So, logically speaking, if fire pujas have failed to tame Dorje Shugden, what good would these so-called anti-shugden chakras be?
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I just don't understand. We are all the same after all - Buddhists. Together we are spreading Buddha's teachings and practices from thousands of years. History has it all the way til today and yet, among us people are still competing and some even bring people down as if who is more superior or whose protector is more powerful... It is truly sad to know that people still do that.
Just like the Shugden controversy. History has it, facts has it, even the mystical power side has it.. Shugden is here to stay. Accept it. If he is a demon, then this demon is going to be around even after you're dead. Fact. Whether Shugden is your protector or not, do respect because there are people get benefit from this protector. With degenerate times like this, I don't think an anti-Shugden Chakra will help much. We truly should spread the dharma instead.
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I have witnessed the process of chakra-making. The main 'ingredient' of a chakra is a special mantra of the deity in a circular fashion, either clockwise or anti clockwise. The mantra is in Tibetan text, and if you read Tibetan, you can read the mantra going round and round. This circular mantra is called a soongkor. The soongkor is then folded with prayers and rituals into a smaller piece of paper and then wrapped in cloth, thread etc followed by a final blessing ritual before the chakra is ready for use.
If the soongkor is of Manjushri's mantra, then we get a Manjushri chakra. If the soongkor is of Tara's mantra, then we get a Tara chakra. So... if the 'soongkor' is of two scorpions, we get scorpion chakra??? ??? And two scorpions on a piece of paper is going to beat the mantra of the King Protector Dorje Shugden (oh yes they have real Dorje Shugden chakras too). Makes no sense at all.
I can't comment on why Dudjom Rinpoche would promote these anti-shugden chakras. Chakras are meant to protect the wearer from negative influences, black magic, spirits, clear obstacles and inteferences etc but I have never known a chakra to be more effective than a puja to solve any particular situation. So, logically speaking, if fire pujas have failed to tame Dorje Shugden, what good would these so-called anti-shugden chakras be?
This is educational Thor. Thank you. And most hilarious about what soongkor would be inside the scorpion chakra?
From the description of how chakras are made, it is obvious and clear that these chakras are just propaganda playing on the anti-shugden sentiment... Very sad.
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Oh, Anti-Shugden Chakras? It is hilarious and so cartoonish. There must be some misinformation. Can some one in Nepal please send him some facts?
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I understand Chakras to be talisman that protect us from general harms or, for some, specific harm of some sort. Example, there are Dukkar chakras that shield us from black magic, Dzambala chakras that bring wealth etc. I have yet to hear of a chakra to "protects" us from a particular being. Even more ironic, the being in this case is the enlightened Buddha Dorje Shugden!
Therefore, I believe that any person with sense and have exposure to pure Dharma teachings will be able to distinguish these chakras from authentic chakras. Like many things that have been created to destroy the practice of Dorje Shugden, these chakras will sizzle away simply because they will not work.
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What is more interesting is that, in Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors, it is clearly mentioned of a certain Nyigma monastery that Dorje Shugden impersonated their protector:
Pretending to be Dragshul Wangpo, you tormented the oracle
By swallowing a vajra in his throat,
And repeatedly split his temple abode, and so on,
Praise to the terrifier of even the great gods
In detail:
Dharmapala demonstrated various miraculous emanations to Lelung Shepay Dorje
who tried various Tantric rituals such as wrathful fire puja to overcome him.
Therefore, to the common point view, they appeared to be at odds and, before
Lelung Shepay Dorje died, Dharmapala showed him wrathful emanations. In
somewhat of a wrathful aspect toward Lelung Shepay Dorje's teachings'
protector, Dragshul Wangpo, as well, with miraculous emanations he split his
temple abode at Lhaden Darpo Ling so that it collapsed. No matter how many
times it was reconstructed he would split it and destroy it again. Moreover,
pretending to be Dragshul Wangpo he entered the deity's oracle at Darpo Ling
and, shaking the oracle's body, swallowed a five?spoked vajra. Once it had lodged
in his throat he left the oracle's body. The vajra would not come out, the oracle
was in pain and at the verge of death. All of the benefactors and supplicants of the
deity were terrified. It became so bad that they invoked Gyalchen to enter the
oracle and then made offerings and supplications. He said, 'If you build a qualified
statue of Je Tsongkhapa in Darling Monastery I will perform the enlightening
activities!' As soon as they promised to do that, the vajra easily came out of the
oracle's throat. Here the praise is for revealing this kind of direct observable
evidence that develops faith and conviction.
After many years the building of the Darling protector palace was in ruins
so that, at one point, those in charge of the property from Tse Namgyal Dratsang
restored it. Responsibility for the construction was accepted from Thubten Dawa
by Dodam Dezur Kenchung who, in connection with invoking the Dharmapala of
Darling, removed the basal objects from the protector palace. He found an
extremely old tendö,
thread construction, that had been there many years.
Behind it, underneath a pile of various newer and older dö, thread crosses, was a
brass five?spoked vajra that the Darling Dharmapala took out and said, 'This is
Dorje Shugden's vajra!'
An accounting of it was given to Dezur Kenchung stating
only that such a vajra had been found behind the thread construction. Dodam
Kenchung himself wrote of wondering what was this vajra that had been taken
out and given to him by the Darling Dharmpala, of which no one, including the
previous oracle, had known was there. This story from previous times again
provides evidence for conviction and belief
On a quick search, Dragshul Wangpo appears linked to Dudjom Rinpoche: [url]http://vimalatreasures.org/offering-and-invocation-of-dragshul-wangpos-concerned-activities-called-the-roar-of-hung.aspx[/url] ([url]http://vimalatreasures.org/offering-and-invocation-of-dragshul-wangpos-concerned-activities-called-the-roar-of-hung.aspx[/url])
Is there a connection? hmmmm.
Maybe Dudjom Rinpoche's actions was due to this incident? Hmmmm. If there is, I would not blame Dudjom Rinpoche at all but I would forgive him with understanding.
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It is beyond comprehension a high lama like Dudjom Rinpoche is sectarian and anti-Gelugpa tradition. It is also very unbecoming of a high lama like Dudjom Rinpoche to be against Dorje Shugden in such a manner as having built a monastery with a Dorje Drolod statue stepping on Dorje Shugden and tearing Dorje Shugden's heart out. It is even mind-boggling and funny a high lama like Dudjom Rinpoche would resort to come up with these chakras?
Furthermore like Thaimonk had said many rituals, pujas and lamas for 350 years failed to destroy Dorje Shugden. It had proven Dorje Shugden is a fully enlightened Buddha and not a spirit. A Buddha cannot be “killed”! Can Dudjom Rinpoche's chakra destroy Dorje Shugden?
Surely Dudjom Rinpoche has the wisdom to know who Dorje Shugden is?
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It is beyond comprehension a high lama like Dudjom Rinpoche is sectarian and anti-Gelugpa tradition. It is also very unbecoming of a high lama like Dudjom Rinpoche to be against Dorje Shugden in such a manner as having built a monastery with a Dorje Drolod statue stepping on Dorje Shugden and tearing Dorje Shugden's heart out. It is even mind-boggling and funny a high lama like Dudjom Rinpoche would resort to come up with these chakras?
Furthermore like Thaimonk had said many rituals, pujas and lamas for 350 years failed to destroy Dorje Shugden. It had proven Dorje Shugden is a fully enlightened Buddha and not a spirit. A Buddha cannot be “killed”! Can Dudjom Rinpoche's chakra destroy Dorje Shugden?
Surely Dudjom Rinpoche has the wisdom to know who Dorje Shugden is?
Maybe it is to appease their protector? After all, looking at the history, an unenlightened protector is never a match against an enlightened one. The unenlightened ones can always be impersonated so you do not know who is really in them. I am totally not surprised at all as Dragshul Wangpo is not enlightened, he could have done something....like nechung etc. It is not like Dorje Shugden who is enlightened and dependable. So it is not surprising if the unenlightened one feels vengeful and advised him to do such things or that he gets blackmailed to do such things...
I personally do not know how to view this situation, that such a high lama choose to get involved in such matters as history has unearthed something interesting that we can all examine and think about. All I can think of is perhaps that he is doing this to appease his own protector, because his yangsi came back...
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Thank you, Thor that is very logical explanation on how chakras are made. So a Migtsema Soongkor would yield
a Lama Tsongkhapa Chakra?
Dagpo Rinpoche also wrote about about Dorje Shugden pretending to be Dragshul Wangpo and yes looks like the source of this is in the 'Music Delighting and Ocean of Protectors'
http://dorjeshugden.net/wp/?page_id=1693 (http://dorjeshugden.net/wp/?page_id=1693)
Not very sure why Dudjom Rinpoche would go against Dorje Shugden. But how can chakras harm a Buddha, yes as mentioned by many on the forum, even the 16th Karmapa had nothing negative to say about Dorje Shudgen.
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When I first encounter Tibetan Buddhism, a lot of the images really scare me. For example Vajrayogini, with her chain, stepping on bodies; Setrap with wrathful look with chain, etc. Of course, Dorje Shugden images are scary to me too. However, after explanation, I am not afraid anymore. Most of the "ugly" things in the images are actually are attachments, our delusion and our bad karma (through our bad actions from countless lifetime).
However, when I look at the images of 2 ugly scorpions, I really cannot relate or associate them with anything bad with ourselves. What are the scorpions trying to kill? Our ego? What does the fire mean?
I am very sad to see these images and I really don't know how much bad karma is generated by drawing this kind of images...
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What is more interesting is that, in Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors, it is clearly mentioned of a certain Nyigma monastery that Dorje Shugden impersonated their protector:
Pretending to be Dragshul Wangpo, you tormented the oracle
By swallowing a vajra in his throat,
And repeatedly split his temple abode, and so on,
Praise to the terrifier of even the great gods
In detail:
Dharmapala demonstrated various miraculous emanations to Lelung Shepay Dorje
who tried various Tantric rituals such as wrathful fire puja to overcome him.
Therefore, to the common point view, they appeared to be at odds and, before
Lelung Shepay Dorje died, Dharmapala showed him wrathful emanations. In
somewhat of a wrathful aspect toward Lelung Shepay Dorje's teachings'
protector, Dragshul Wangpo, as well, with miraculous emanations he split his
temple abode at Lhaden Darpo Ling so that it collapsed. No matter how many
times it was reconstructed he would split it and destroy it again. Moreover,
pretending to be Dragshul Wangpo he entered the deity's oracle at Darpo Ling
and, shaking the oracle's body, swallowed a five?spoked vajra. Once it had lodged
in his throat he left the oracle's body. The vajra would not come out, the oracle
was in pain and at the verge of death. All of the benefactors and supplicants of the
deity were terrified. It became so bad that they invoked Gyalchen to enter the
oracle and then made offerings and supplications. He said, 'If you build a qualified
statue of Je Tsongkhapa in Darling Monastery I will perform the enlightening
activities!' As soon as they promised to do that, the vajra easily came out of the
oracle's throat. Here the praise is for revealing this kind of direct observable
evidence that develops faith and conviction.
After many years the building of the Darling protector palace was in ruins
so that, at one point, those in charge of the property from Tse Namgyal Dratsang
restored it. Responsibility for the construction was accepted from Thubten Dawa
by Dodam Dezur Kenchung who, in connection with invoking the Dharmapala of
Darling, removed the basal objects from the protector palace. He found an
extremely old tendö,
thread construction, that had been there many years.
Behind it, underneath a pile of various newer and older dö, thread crosses, was a
brass five?spoked vajra that the Darling Dharmapala took out and said, 'This is
Dorje Shugden's vajra!'
An accounting of it was given to Dezur Kenchung stating
only that such a vajra had been found behind the thread construction. Dodam
Kenchung himself wrote of wondering what was this vajra that had been taken
out and given to him by the Darling Dharmpala, of which no one, including the
previous oracle, had known was there. This story from previous times again
provides evidence for conviction and belief
On a quick search, Dragshul Wangpo appears linked to Dudjom Rinpoche: [url]http://vimalatreasures.org/offering-and-invocation-of-dragshul-wangpos-concerned-activities-called-the-roar-of-hung.aspx[/url] ([url]http://vimalatreasures.org/offering-and-invocation-of-dragshul-wangpos-concerned-activities-called-the-roar-of-hung.aspx[/url])
Is there a connection? hmmmm.
Maybe Dudjom Rinpoche's actions was due to this incident? Hmmmm. If there is, I would not blame Dudjom Rinpoche at all but I would forgive him with understanding.
I doubt that is the reason Dudjom Rinpoche was fearful of Dorje Shugden and caused him to create protective chakras against Dorje Shugden. If powerful fire rituals were ineffective against Dorje Shugden, how can these simple chakras be effective. Didn't all Nyingmas tried in vain to kill Dorje Shugden with their renowned fire rituals and didn't they fail? Whatever his reasons were, these chakras were definitely ineffective. Check out what they tried to do to Dorje Shugden :-
This is extracted from Music Delighting An Ocean of Protectors as well, page 103-104 :-
Then, although four undisputed powerful Tantricas,
With samadhi, began wrathful rituals to strike you down,
Through power of having completed Guyasamaja's two stages,
You would not be silenced, and showed signs of heroism, praise to you!
As for this, as related above, as soon as Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen died, various miraculous manifestations occurred, and no matter what activities or rituals were attempted, nothing could be found to help stop them. In the fire?bird year manifestations had become extremely heightened, and in the earth?bird year the Great Fifth Dalai Lama built a new king protector house at the White Spring of Dol in to which various sorts of representational substances were placed, but it did not help. Many of the lay people were sick in an epidemic and several of the monks of Namgyal Tratsang had died. Such manifestations were stronger than even before and Namgyal Tratsang requested the Dalai Lama to take action.
Accordingly, to the Tratsang came Gadong Ngarampa Dondrub Gyatso, a vajra master of Dorje Drolo; the Fifth Dalai Lama, himself a supreme vajra master of Yang Sang Karma Dragpo, Super Secret Wrathful Karma Guru; two large groups of monks provided by Nangjung Ngachang Lozang Kyentse; the vajra master of Dorje Drak Tulku Pema Trinle; the vajra master of Mindrol Ling Terdag Lingpa Gyurme Dorje; Choje Ugja Lungpa; the Tantrica of Katsal Zurpa Ngari Konchog Lhundrup; thus a glorious mountain of Tulkus did seven ritual practices, from Wrathful Guru Padmasambhava, to Yamanataka, Kilaya, Logtrixxxvii, and so forth. On the comfortable broad eastern side of the Potala they did fire puja. The morning they were performing the ritual activity, one monk in Chagpori named Bodhisattva, who had clairvoyance, had a vision during his meditation. Early in the morning, from the direction of the Potala he saw small wrathful Deities emanating forth like atoms of sunbeams, going towards Drepung. Around eight in the morning he saw the Great King of Dol, master and servants, about to go to the Potala in a line on horseback in an impossible array of finery and ornamentation. The Fifth Dalai Lama performed the ritual activity but as he was doing it Sangpu Setrab emanated a monastery on top of Bumpa Ri, Vase Mountain, where none had been before and rocked the Potala Palace back and forth, which caused the Great Fifth's concentration to waver just slightly; and also by the power of Dragpa Gyaltsen, himself, having singlepointedly practised glorious Guyasamaja while he was alive and attained high experiential realizations of its two stages, the fire puja was not successful.
Likewise, when the great vajra master Dordrag Rigtzin peformed wrathful fire puja, Gyalchen came to the fire puja ladle but, when he turned the ladle over to pour into the fire he went to the backside of the ladle, and when he turned it upright, he was sitting on top again, and so on, and he was unable to burn him. When Mingling Terchen performed wrathful fire puja and Gyalchen came to the fire puja ladle, when he was about to put him in the fire, Setrab emanated a celestial mansion in the sky until Terchen's mind was distracted and he lost him from the ladle. The ritual monks saw a pigeon fly away. When Gadong Ngarampa performed fire puja, one of the ritual monks squeezed a dry apricot pit that flew up and struck the master in the head so that his samadhi dissipated and he was unable to burn him. Other teams of practitioners could not do it either. With fire pujas ineffective, the Great Fifth Dalai Lama, with an aspect of being disturbed, went to Sangpu Monastery and delivered a reprimanding address to Setrab in a very terrifying manner. As he was reading it, the Dharmapala was so scared the whole temple rocked and shook, it is said.
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I doubt that is the reason Dudjom Rinpoche was fearful of Dorje Shugden and caused him to create protective chakras against Dorje Shugden. If powerful fire rituals were ineffective against Dorje Shugden, how can these simple chakras be effective. Didn't all Nyingmas tried in vain to kill Dorje Shugden with their renowned fire rituals and didn't they fail? Whatever his reasons were, these chakras were definitely ineffective. Check out what they tried to do to Dorje Shugden :-
This is extracted from Music Delighting An Ocean of Protectors as well, page 103-104 :-
Then, although four undisputed powerful Tantricas,
With samadhi, began wrathful rituals to strike you down,
Through power of having completed Guyasamaja's two stages,
You would not be silenced, and showed signs of heroism, praise to you!
As for this, as related above, as soon as Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen died, various miraculous manifestations occurred, and no matter what activities or rituals were attempted, nothing could be found to help stop them. In the fire?bird year manifestations had become extremely heightened, and in the earth?bird year the Great Fifth Dalai Lama built a new king protector house at the White Spring of Dol in to which various sorts of representational substances were placed, but it did not help. Many of the lay people were sick in an epidemic and several of the monks of Namgyal Tratsang had died. Such manifestations were stronger than even before and Namgyal Tratsang requested the Dalai Lama to take action.
Accordingly, to the Tratsang came Gadong Ngarampa Dondrub Gyatso, a vajra master of Dorje Drolo; the Fifth Dalai Lama, himself a supreme vajra master of Yang Sang Karma Dragpo, Super Secret Wrathful Karma Guru; two large groups of monks provided by Nangjung Ngachang Lozang Kyentse; the vajra master of Dorje Drak Tulku Pema Trinle; the vajra master of Mindrol Ling Terdag Lingpa Gyurme Dorje; Choje Ugja Lungpa; the Tantrica of Katsal Zurpa Ngari Konchog Lhundrup; thus a glorious mountain of Tulkus did seven ritual practices, from Wrathful Guru Padmasambhava, to Yamanataka, Kilaya, Logtrixxxvii, and so forth. On the comfortable broad eastern side of the Potala they did fire puja. The morning they were performing the ritual activity, one monk in Chagpori named Bodhisattva, who had clairvoyance, had a vision during his meditation. Early in the morning, from the direction of the Potala he saw small wrathful Deities emanating forth like atoms of sunbeams, going towards Drepung. Around eight in the morning he saw the Great King of Dol, master and servants, about to go to the Potala in a line on horseback in an impossible array of finery and ornamentation. The Fifth Dalai Lama performed the ritual activity but as he was doing it Sangpu Setrab emanated a monastery on top of Bumpa Ri, Vase Mountain, where none had been before and rocked the Potala Palace back and forth, which caused the Great Fifth's concentration to waver just slightly; and also by the power of Dragpa Gyaltsen, himself, having singlepointedly practised glorious Guyasamaja while he was alive and attained high experiential realizations of its two stages, the fire puja was not successful.
Likewise, when the great vajra master Dordrag Rigtzin peformed wrathful fire puja, Gyalchen came to the fire puja ladle but, when he turned the ladle over to pour into the fire he went to the backside of the ladle, and when he turned it upright, he was sitting on top again, and so on, and he was unable to burn him. When Mingling Terchen performed wrathful fire puja and Gyalchen came to the fire puja ladle, when he was about to put him in the fire, Setrab emanated a celestial mansion in the sky until Terchen's mind was distracted and he lost him from the ladle. The ritual monks saw a pigeon fly away. When Gadong Ngarampa performed fire puja, one of the ritual monks squeezed a dry apricot pit that flew up and struck the master in the head so that his samadhi dissipated and he was unable to burn him. Other teams of practitioners could not do it either. With fire pujas ineffective, the Great Fifth Dalai Lama, with an aspect of being disturbed, went to Sangpu Monastery and delivered a reprimanding address to Setrab in a very terrifying manner. As he was reading it, the Dharmapala was so scared the whole temple rocked and shook, it is said.
However, like i have said it could just have been done simply to appease the unenlightened protector so that he does not get upset. It is more or less a show to appease something or someone, even though it obviously does not work and that it does not have any effects. There are no mantras on the chakra and it does not seem to be something that will work at all, like a pacifier for a child: it is just there to provide emotional calm and does not do anything else other than that. Dudjom Rinpoche would definitely not be fearful of Dorje Shugden, but what about the unenlightened protector who are notoriously unpredictable and difficult to control?
Scorpions are said to represent Guru Rinpoche, but to depict them in this way is pretty much borderline disrespectful as the depictions are very crude. There aren't much to say about those chakras and car stickers except that it is very apparent that they were not very well made: as if the person who made them just did it crudely to appease something or someone.
From the accounts it is clear that Dorje Shugden does not have the karma to be harmed and neither does he need to be protected against. If you don't want to be near him, just make inauspicious prayers to not meet him haha….and you'll not need those chakras but also you'll lose contact with the Dharma for many lifetimes to come. This is a part that i find quite hilarious that people are seeking protection AGAINST Dorje Shugden. Why would he wanna come disturb you for no reason at all? Why the paranoia?
The one thing I still find baffling is all the connections that are being drawn here, the relationships between Dradshul Wangpo and Dujdom, and Dorje Shugden impersonating that protector to make a point, and now Dudjom Rinpoche is going against Dorje Shugden. Might all of these be related in some way?
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The need for shugden chakras are all in the mind of beings who refuse to understand the true nature of Dorje Shugden for whatever reasons they profess.
No chakra can protect you from suffering, ghosts, magic, malevolent forces if you don't do your part.
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I don't mean to be rude but I was actually surprised that these chakras exist. If a fire puja back and rituals then couldn't stop Dorje Shugden, what makes people think they can stop Him with chakras? I am pretty sure He has his reasons for doing these anti Shugden chakras. Dealing with an Enlightened being such as Dorje Shugden does not need any anti items as it will not work.... ;D
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The need for shugden chakras are all in the mind of beings who refuse to understand the true nature of Dorje Shugden for whatever reasons they profess.
No chakra can protect you from suffering, ghosts, magic, malevolent forces if you don't do your part.
KARMA BABY.
Dagom Rinpoche and every single qualified teacher has said a million times over...believe in karma, and you will be protected. Everything about every Buddha and every practice is about purifying your karma, or helping you to curb afflictive actions of body, speech and mind so you stop creating karma. No karma, no harm...the best protection because no one can take it away from you AND it's FREE.
Why is it a qualified teacher will never tell you to pay for protection, but will always give you practices for protection? To purify your karma. Same concept with the Dalai Lama...he has no karma to be harmed so Dorje Shugden (even if he wanted to, which he doesnt!) can never harm him!
Karma karma karma karma KARMA. Jesus why is it so difficult for everyone to understand?
(soz, not had my morning tea yet. I know, its late)
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The need for shugden chakras are all in the mind of beings who refuse to understand the true nature of Dorje Shugden for whatever reasons they profess.
No chakra can protect you from suffering, ghosts, magic, malevolent forces if you don't do your part.
KARMA BABY.
Dagom Rinpoche and every single qualified teacher has said a million times over...believe in karma, and you will be protected. Everything about every Buddha and every practice is about purifying your karma, or helping you to curb afflictive actions of body, speech and mind so you stop creating karma. No karma, no harm...the best protection because no one can take it away from you AND it's FREE.
Why is it a qualified teacher will never tell you to pay for protection, but will always give you practices for protection? To purify your karma. Same concept with the Dalai Lama...he has no karma to be harmed so Dorje Shugden (even if he wanted to, which he doesnt!) can never harm him!
Karma karma karma karma KARMA. Jesus why is it so difficult for everyone to understand?
(soz, not had my morning tea yet. I know, its late)
Well-said Dharma Defender..it's KARMA baby..! All your points I agreed :)
I hate to repeat the important points from ALL the earlier posts but would like to list down those that are worth more than 2 cents for everyone to contemplate:
1. If we believe that HH the Dalai Lama is emanation of Chenresig/ Avalokitesvara, then no human, mara, spirit, demon or any other forces can harm him or shorten his life. He has no negative karma to be harmed. So this claim is not logical....
2. Well, if HHDL is Avalokitesvara, a Buddha, his mind is omniscient; similarly all his previous incarnations are also omniscient. Then how come his previous incarnations don't know Dorje Shugden is a harmful unenlightened spirit? Where is the logic?
3. Now assuming... IF HHDL can be harmed by DS that means he is not enlightened (this assumption is just for the sake of logical analysis); which also means he is not omniscient... then what HHDL said about DS should be wrong!
4. On the other hand, if DS is not enlightened then HHDL or other high lamas would not have problem to subdue him. Then there is no issue to ban his practice...
5. If DS is not an enlightened Dharmapala and harmful to practitioners and could shorten HHDL's life, all the highly acclaimed lamas including HHDL and his lineage gurus and tutors would not be doing DS practice; and they definitely would not pass this practice down to their students. For all Tibetans, HHDL is the highest ranked spiritual lama and the highest ranked political leader, so by logic, no other lamas would dare to do any practice that can harm HHDL and his life.
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This is very interesting sharing! I don't think this chakra will works to an enlightenment deity manjusri enamation dorje shugden. Enligtenment means free of karma, free of suffering, free of six realms with countless compassion and wisdom. Just this simple chakra will able to stop the endless loves and cares from dorje shugden? This consider the funniest thing i heard. About Dudjum rinpoche, i felt sad he created this chakra and all the action against dorje shugden. For myself as a Buddhist i can't criticise any buddhist temple,monastery,monk and nun. But i can't control don't like him at all. You may choose to not practise any deity but why should Dugjum rinpoche done all this ritual and chakra? Not an ordinary people like me will understand .
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What if the Anti-Shugden Chakra, was actually just a normal Shugden Chakra?
What a great way to help so many!
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What if the Anti-Shugden Chakra, was actually just a normal Shugden Chakra?
What a great way to help so many!
What you wrote is so possible! If Dudjom Rinpoche is a high lama, then for him to make an anti-shugden chakra doesn't make sense. It looks too petty and illogical. If fire pujas can't even get rid of Dorje Shugden, a chakra is definitely not going to do much!
If this is true, my guess is that Rinpoche must like Dorje Shugden a lot. However, Dorje Shugden is a Gelug protector and not a Ningma protector. So it makes sense that Rinpoche can't promote a Gelugpa's protector. One of the ways to help people make a connection with Dorje Shugden is to give away chakras. Once the connection is made, Dorje Shugden will bring the people close to dharma either in this current life or future lives.
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This could be possible too, jeremyg. Even fire puja or any other rituals cannot subdue or get rid of Dorje Shugden. Surely Dudjom Rinpoche as a high lama should know that the anti shugden chakra will not work. Dorje Shugden is an enlightened being, how can he be harm? So why is he making the anti shugden chakra unless that is not an anti shugden chakra but a Dorje Shugden chakra that gives protection and blessing. Sometimes it is so difficult for ordinary beings like us to comprehend and view the whole situation. Unless the ban is lifted, ordinary being like me will just read up more to gain knowledge, trust Dorje Shugden as He has helped me tremendously and wait for the right time for the truth to be revealed.
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That's right... this makes more sense than selling chakras to protect from Shugden...
A high lama like Dudjom Rinpoche should be able to see the clear picture of this whole saga to ban Dorje Shugden. So most probably like you said these are chakras of Shugden to bless people but being promoted as anti-shugden to attract the naive people to make connection with this great dharma protector.
I am glad to observe that lately more and more high lamas taken actions towards DS's favor, skillfully and some showed on surface like they're going against DS practice but it is only logical they're going towards spreading DS. This is one example. Another is the 11th Panchen Lama meeting Preimmier Wen Jiabao of China.
Actually the ban itself had helped to promote DS. As we know in Tibetan Buddhism there countless of dharma protectors, no one will take notice DS. Seems with the ban, the whole world take notice of this Gelug Dharma Protector. One thing for sure, HH the Dalai Lama is enlightened, so, he cannot be wrong about DS. period.
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Here's some interesting facts about Dudjom Rinpoche:
from wiki
After leaving Tibet, Rinpoche settled first in Kalimpong, in India. He gave extensive teachings in Kalimpong and Darjeeling. These were very popular and he became famous throughout the Tibetan community. But suddenly Dudjom Rinpoche was arrested and jailed in Siliguri, falsely accused by the Dalai Lama's Tibetan Government in Exile of being a Chinese spy. Dudjom Rinpoche was not interested in the Dalai Lama's desire for a union of all Tibetan traditions. In replying to the question 'If some people have been practising according to one lineage, is it necessary for them to change lineages in order to create unity in the community?' Dudjom Rinpoche replied:
Certainly not. Whatever practice a person is well-grounded in is what he should continue. Part of our purpose is to preserve all lineages as methods for attaining enlightenment. … as practitioners we should sustain our own tradition while respecting and rejoicing in the virtue of other traditions.[6]
It is only after the arrest that Dudjom Rinpoche went all out against Dorje Shugden. It is also the same year where the Dalai Lama publicly denounced Dorje Shugden. Coincidence?
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Mate just got back from his holiday and brought this back for me as a souvenir. Fantastic, looks like this nonsense is still going strong in some parts of the world. Anyone know what it says?
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Mate just got back from his holiday and brought this back for me as a souvenir. Fantastic, looks like this nonsense is still going strong in some parts of the world. Anyone know what it says?
I have no idea what it says but one thing for sure is that it will soon die out because first of all, it is very ugly and secondly, it looks more like a very inauspicious charm or image for anyone to carry around. The craze died down in nepal quite quickly, so i doubt this one would last a long time too. After all, Dorje Shugden's image is waaaaay more auspicious and attractive compared to this poorly drawn imitation that serves nothing but to promote hatred and ignorance. However, the only known producer of such things is Dudjom Rinpoche's center.
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Oh My Buddha! Do we have such thing in Buddhism? It seems like something related to black magic or cult rather than a protection for me.
The card in Chinese says:
???????
??????????????????
???????????????????
???????????????????????????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????
I am not sure some of the meanings, a summary from what I understand is:
Wrathful Padmasambhava Iron Scorpion Wheel
It is from the First Dudjom Rinpoche.
With this, no evil spirits, demons etc can cause harm to us.
I found a Chinese page that mentioned about this chakra but do not mention anything about Anti-Shugden. http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_5d02f93f0102dwxp.html. (http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_5d02f93f0102dwxp.html.) It only mentioned that it is for protection and it is Padmasambhava scorpion practice. A precious tantric practice.
I just wonder how true it is. ;D
Anyway, for me, I believe that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha. Maybe this chakra will invite Dorje Shugden closer to us as Dorje Shugden will always protect us from any harm in our spiritual journey.
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Oh My Buddha! Do we have such thing in Buddhism? It seems like something related to black magic or cult rather than a protection for me.
The card in Chinese says:
???????
??????????????????
???????????????????
???????????????????????????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????
I am not sure some of the meanings, a summary from what I understand is:
Wrathful Padmasambhava Iron Scorpion Wheel
It is from the First Dudjom Rinpoche.
With this, no evil spirits, demons etc can cause harm to us.
I found a Chinese page that mentioned about this chakra but do not mention anything about Anti-Shugden. [url]http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_5d02f93f0102dwxp.html.[/url] ([url]http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_5d02f93f0102dwxp.html.[/url]) It only mentioned that it is for protection and it is Padmasambhava scorpion practice. A precious tantric practice.
I just wonder how true it is. ;D
Anyway, for me, I believe that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha. Maybe this chakra will invite Dorje Shugden closer to us as Dorje Shugden will always protect us from any harm in our spiritual journey.
Thanks for the translation, lotus1. It seems that the card does not mention about Dorje Shugden at all which is actually a good sign. However, it could also be that people do not recognise that the 'person' in the image (which is supposed to represent a generic hungry ghost) seems to wear Dorje Shugden's hat. Perhaps the person who printed the card has no idea what it really is and was duped into believing that it is actually a charm that protects against spirits. Having said that, having unreasonable phobia against spirits and ghosts to me sounds very unbuddhist like and discriminative...
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I can't believe that chakras like this actually exists, what happened to the people who made these? They are making people wearing something they themselves think can '' protect '' them from an enlightened Buddha... Oh my Buddha, I don't know anything else to say...
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Here's some interesting facts about Dudjom Rinpoche:
from wiki
After leaving Tibet, Rinpoche settled first in Kalimpong, in India. He gave extensive teachings in Kalimpong and Darjeeling. These were very popular and he became famous throughout the Tibetan community. But suddenly Dudjom Rinpoche was arrested and jailed in Siliguri, falsely accused by the Dalai Lama's Tibetan Government in Exile of being a Chinese spy. Dudjom Rinpoche was not interested in the Dalai Lama's desire for a union of all Tibetan traditions. In replying to the question 'If some people have been practising according to one lineage, is it necessary for them to change lineages in order to create unity in the community?' Dudjom Rinpoche replied:
Certainly not. Whatever practice a person is well-grounded in is what he should continue. Part of our purpose is to preserve all lineages as methods for attaining enlightenment. … as practitioners we should sustain our own tradition while respecting and rejoicing in the virtue of other traditions.[6]
It is only after the arrest that Dudjom Rinpoche went all out against Dorje Shugden. It is also the same year where the Dalai Lama publicly denounced Dorje Shugden. Coincidence?
Thank you Ensapa for posting the above.
I was just reading up on Dudjom Rinpoche, the previous head of the Nyingma tradition and the one of Tibet’s foremost yogins, scholars, and meditation masters. He is recognized as the incarnation of Dudjom Lingpa (1835-1904), whose previous incarnations included the greatest masters, yogins and panditas such as Shariputra, Saraha and Khye'u Chung Lotsawa.
It looks like the CTA has got it handprints all over this as well.
Tsk tsk tsk!
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The Anti-Shugden chakras definitely would not keep the person wearing one away from Dorje Shugden. I am so sorry to know that there are people so foolish to be duped into believing this non truth. Why would anyone want to repel a Buddha whose only intention is to guide one towards enlightenment?
Alternatively, if they are still so stuck in their belief that Dorje Shugden is a spirit, they should realize the piece of paper with the scorpion picture on it would not be able to turn away this spirit who have survived countless fire Pujas after so many years.
The good thing about this chakra is it keeps reminding the wearer of the Buddha Dorje Shugden.
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This is laughable joke. Seriously, this person is deluded. He is worse than shaman, trying to build on the ignorant's fears and insecurities and ignorance. Reminds of the Y2K sham that went around the world especially in Hong Kong where the ignorant thought that it was a disease and not an internet problem. Shame on Dudjom Rinpoche for trying this con!
If the illustrious masters over the centuries cannot "get rid of" Dorje Shugden what make him think that he can? Even the Mindroling masters has to admit defeat, proving that Dorje Shugden is not a demon.
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There are many different types of ritual actions explained in the various tantras, so this is not that unusual. You can read all about psychic combat in the Biography of Ra Lotsawa, and the thing to bear in minds that Dorje Shugden will allow certain things get through to us as part of our training, and it is especially worth considering how loss of mindfulness of the Dharma renders the practitioner vulnerable to some extent, whereas doing various protection practices will have power to greater or lesser extent depending on the concentration of the practitioner. Don't think for a second that psychic attack is not being perpetuated by anti-Shugden people, and it is in the best interest of Shugden practitioners to maintain mindfulness and concentration on the Dharma, especially protection practices, not just because of such psychic attack, but there are many other hindrances and forces that need to be kept at bay until we are strong enough to transform them into the path.
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If the illustrious masters over the centuries cannot "get rid of" Dorje Shugden what make him think that he can? Even the Mindroling masters has to admit defeat, proving that Dorje Shugden is not a demon.
If fire puja or any other rituals cannot subdue or get rid of Dorje Shugden, it is logical to say that Dorje Shugden is not a spirit but an Enlightened Being. Surely Dudjom Rinpoche as a high lama should know that the anti shugden chakra will not work. It is so silly that ignorant people will wear this chakra to protect themselves against Dorje Shugden.
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This is just plain illogical on so many levels.
Why is it that Dorje Shugden practitioners the ones being criticised for being sectarian when we are the only subjected to petty actions like this? It is just mind-boggling that a former head of Nyingma would somehow find it necessary to produce such “amulet” when there is no logical basis for it. Even if one refused to believe that Dorje Shugden is enlightened, why is there a need to sow seeds of fear and promote segregation within the Buddhist community? More so when there is not even a shred of proof of any immediate dangers caused Dorje Shugden to anyone to the warrant the production of such protective amulet.
Begs the question what exactly is Dudjom Rinpoche trying to prove with such stunt? In this regard, agree with Grandmapele’s succinct conclusion, “If the illustrious masters over the centuries cannot "get rid of" Dorje Shugden what make him think that he can? Even the Mindroling masters has to admit defeat, proving that Dorje Shugden is not a demon”.
And let’s not even start on how illogical it is to have “protection” against a Buddha.
Amazingly but not surprisingly, even in the face of such unjust antics, there has never been any report of Dorje Shugden (through His oracle) disparaging, attacking or saying anything negative about those who persecute Him despite the intense and prolonged attacks. Neither has He ever instructed Dorje Shugen practitioners to antagonise those against Him. Instead, Dorje Shugden is always focused on alleviating suffering through Dharma.
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These chakras or anything "against" Dorje Shugden will not work against Him but it will promote Him. Dorje Shugden is a fully enlightened being and he will only bless the people who put their eyes on him.
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Reading about the actions of Dudjom Rinpoche really makes me think how Buddha Shakyamuni advised us to always ask and check for the truth. The 50 stanzas of Guru Devotion by Ashvagosha said to check out the Guru before we submit ourselves. Well, the absurd actions against enlightened Protector Dorje Shugden by Dudjom Rinpoche looks petty juvenile as if one is trying assert his own wrong views to proof something, monetary benefits maybe? I wondered if the students or followers of Dudjom Rinpoche has checked out their Guru as he leads them in his wrong views. Om Benza Wiki Bitana Soha. May ignorance be removed for those who could not see the blessings and protection that Lord Dorje Shugden accord us.