dorjeshugden.com
General Buddhism => General Buddhism => Topic started by: Vajraprotector on May 01, 2011, 09:46:38 PM
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Sometimes in December 2008, a French Bar chain called Buddha Bar opened in Indonesia’s capital Jakarta and it also invited protests from the local Buddhist community who have grouped together under Anti Buddha-Bar forum named FABB.
Argument from the Opponents of Buddha Bar
FABB argues that usage of Lord Buddha’s image inside a bar creates a negative impression about Buddhism and Buddha’s teachings. This negative impression comes from the fact that a place where alcohol etc is served should not connect itself with the image of Lord Buddha because it creates a negative connotation in the minds of Buddhists and Non-Buddhists about Buddha and His teachings. This is the argument by Anti Buddha-Bar protesters who want nothing less than seeing the bar closed down in Indonesia for good.
Argument from the Supporters of Buddha Bar
But it appears not all Buddhists are opposing the bar. Buddhist supporters for the bar have grouped together under Indonesian Young Generation of Buddhists (Gemabudhi) who want the bar to stay. I quote their view:
Instead, he added, Gemabuddhi hoped Buddha Bar restaurant to become one of the pillars of Buddhist teachings; introducing to all people that Buddhists are not idol worshipers, or there is no doctrine in Buddhism that considers the statue is a sacred object.
Source: http://www.buddhadiary.com/2010/08/buddha-bar-protests-in-indonesia-an-insight/
What do you think? Do you think it's ok to have Buddha statues in places like a bar?
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FABB argues that usage of Lord Buddha’s image inside a bar creates a negative impression about Buddhism and Buddha’s teachings. This negative impression comes from the fact that a place where alcohol etc is served should not connect itself with the image of Lord Buddha because it creates a negative connotation in the minds of Buddhists and Non-Buddhists about Buddha and His teachings.
I personally do not think 'negative impressions' are created by the usage of Lord Buddha's image inside a bar as these are our mere perceptions of what is negative. Are we saying we should not put Buddha images in our own homes? Why I am saying this is because our homes are not that 'suitable' for a Buddha image if we really thought about it based on the argument above.
Lord Buddha is an enlightened being and therefore he is beyond our worldly perceptions or negative ideals. To have a Buddha image in any environment would be giving a blessing to the place and anyone gazing upon it regardless of it's situation. Sure there are 'better' places to revere Lord Buddha's image but it does not make it wrong. In fact I think it is better to put Lord Buddha's image in a place/environment where it will benefit people who NEED it...
More Buddha images everywhere and anywhere I say!!!! What do you guys think?
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Where I come from we have a chain of Buddha Bars. I suppose it may have something to do with not being a country with a deep rooted tradition in Buddhism but it does have a good feeling to have a Buddha image around.
In that sense to those "Hard line" buddhist who say strictly yes or no. IF you don't have a Buddha image in a place like this how will these people who go there ever get to receive the blessings of Buddha, when you are stopping them directly from the blessing?
Yes the place might not be the most respectful place, but I didn't know the Buddha was hung up on whether a place was perfect or not to teach. Especially in this day and age. So for all sentient beings except those that frequent bars, clubs, nudie bars, massage parlours until we achieve enlightenment.
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There are buddhas in the hells and buddhas in the heavens, there is a buddha wherever there is a need for one, and that means most everywhere, there is virtually no place where Buddhas "should not be".
Some people will see them others won't. Some will have merits others won't, but all will receive the blessings of being exposed to buddhahood in the shape of a Buddha's statue.
I say this: instead of fighting for the removal of a "Buddha Bar", I'd rather use the opportunity to share about this famous Buddha on which a bar is basing its branding exercise...
This is an opportunity to spread Dharma, if we turn it into that.
Or it is an opportunity for closing people's minds about Buddhisme, about spirituality, about samsara's delusions too.
It is up to us I think.
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It'll contradict Buddha's nature if he is offended by an image of him being placed in a bar. So if the problem doesn't exists on Buddha's side, then obviously the problem is on our side (when has it not been)
I do think that having these images in the bars is great, as people will receive blessings irregardless of their believe systems. Buddhism should be presented in a progressive manner. The skillful ways of conveying the dharma by lamas is an example of presenting Buddhism in a way that people of the 21st century can relate to. Would anyone living in the 21st century receives blessings if buddhism and buddha statues are only available in the deep forests, mountains, caves? Who would be hanging out in such places?
My view is that we are very fortunate to be living at this time where Buddha images are available, the pure dharma is still being taught and people have the merits to practice.
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I personally think it is quite smart and cool to have Buddha images in a bar. If it is true that seeing an image of the enlightened one will plant the seed of enlightenment, then by all means... Wouldn't places like these where you will least expect it, is where someone gets his or her seed planted?
I remembered a story about am ant that was carried around a stupa during a heavy rain. That ant ignorantly, without knowing a thing was actually circumambulating a stupa and his next ;ife he was a human and could actually meet the Buddha himself which ordained him to be a monk!!! So I would apply this same logic to those going to Buddha Bar.
Times are now degenerated... we will need to use skilful methods to bring people in to Dharma, sometimes this mean attracting people at the level they are at... how nice if the bar had a cool poster of Dorje Shugden!!!
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To my opinion I would think its good to have a buddha even if its in a Bar as a protection against negative forces. When a person goes to a Bar most likely he will get drunk. He will not be able to control his senses. Then negative forces will easily take hold of him and will control his senses making him do a lot of harm to himself and others and creating bad Karma. As Buddhas are enlightened beings there is no way they can be sensitive. At the same time when there is a Buddha image around in the Bar people will tend to indirectly behave better and maybe not to get drunk to that extent so that there will be fights. Fights tend to occur in Bars very often.
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I was just at Buddha Bar in Paris last night.
It is actually very tastefully decorated. I can't speak for the rest of the Buddha Bar's franchise elsewhere. But seeing the number of people who frequent the bar, it is another way of spreading Buddha's work. It may not be the most traditional or conventional method, but Buddha did create 84,000 different ways, right?
I think it is wonderful that a holy image can be placed in a place which is not so holy, perhaps, but they certainly need the Buddha's blessings the most! Who knows when these seeds planted by just viewing a holy image will sprout or what it will trigger in others.
I rejoice for the many images of Buddha and Dharma to be placed anywhere and everywhere.
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Looks like everyone has a positive take on this.
I'm puzzled by the comment that "there is no doctrine in Buddhism that considers the statue is a sacred object".
It is very strange as
- the widely quoted legend of king Udayana, commissioning Buddha's image to represent the Great Master during his absence, and
- Anathapindaka praying Buddha to allow at least the images of Bodhisattvas
The above suggest that Buddha's followers contemplated the possibility of covering their Master's absence by his anthropomorphic representations even before the Mahaparinirvana, hence a Buddha statue is a representation of Buddha and is sacred.
I wonder if Young Generation of Buddhists (Gemabudhi) really know what they are talking about.
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Looks like everyone has a positive take on this.
I'm puzzled by the comment that "there is no doctrine in Buddhism that considers the statue is a sacred object".
It is very strange as
- the widely quoted legend of king Udayana, commissioning Buddha's image to represent the Great Master during his absence, and
- Anathapindaka praying Buddha to allow at least the images of Bodhisattvas
The above suggest that Buddha's followers contemplated the possibility of covering their Master's absence by his anthropomorphic representations even before the Mahaparinirvana, hence a Buddha statue is a representation of Buddha and is sacred.
I wonder if Young Generation of Buddhists (Gemabudhi) really know what they are talking about.
I am not versed in the details and legends of king Udayana and Anathapindaka, but I would like to share this:
A statue of a Buddha, to me, is sacred for buddhahood is sacred.
Otherwise, the statue of a Buddha is only a molded piece of metal or any other material, at least to the eye of someone who does not understand nor value buddhahood as sacred.
Then the power of a Buddha is beyond average understanding and blessings do occur even when "non-believers" are exposed to an image of a Buddha. But then again, I understand this to work because a "non-believer" is simply someone on denial.
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@ Hope Rainbow... You are right. I too believe that a Buddha does not cease to be a Buddha just because we do not belief or disbelief in the Buddha. Hence the holy image of a Buddha will bless anyone regardless and should not be seen as something that degrades the Buddha. The Buddha is beyond that...
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I think it is alright to have a Buddha statue in a bar. In fact, to see an image of a Buddha is a blessing and the people who frequented the place will be planted with the seeds of Enlightenment.
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Let us break this down a little further.
Against:
According to the refuge commitments, every image of a buddha should be regarded as the actual buddha himself. Therefore, when a buddha image is placed in places such as bars, toilets, etc it would be considered inappropriate.
But what of the popular opinion on this thread that says it is alright for Buddha to be in the bar? That it bestows blessings?
The blessings are of the object (the statue) not the subject (the observer). Therefore there are definitely some blessings accrued when someone views the Buddha image. However, should that same person perform an inappropriate act such as sitting on the buddha image, of course there will be negativity accrued as well. It is a fine balancing act.
But let's face it... most owners of bars who place buddha images in there are not doing it to bless their patrons... instead it is part of their decor theme.
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I guess just seeing a Buddha image does plant seeds as you all say, and it does bestow some blessings. I remember at college, a room mate of mine brought his Asian girlfriend over to our dorm. She was wearing a necklace with a Buddha image. It was the first time I ever really seen a Buddha image up close. Years later, I am starting my Buddhist journey. I guess, our minds do register everything, no matter how minute it is. It just requires something to trigger or reinforce that memory or seed.
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I like Thor's post. It makes sense in terms of a statue being a sacred object and also the fact that in today's times Buddha images are also work of art. At the end of it, it is really the motivation.
I do not think that Buddha images in this chain of Buddha Bars has a motivation of blessing their patrons. Not to be antagonistic, but if there is any statue in the Bar for any "blessing' it would probably be some worldly deity blessing the business and blessing the people to come in and party! and spend money. And this deity will be kept in the manager's private office.
I think that in Buddhism we should adopt a balanced view and not impose.
1) Buddha images are sacred - fact
2) Looking at a Buddha Statue calms one's mind - true
3) How much one will receive in planting the Dharma seed by looking at Buddha images is an affinity and one's faith and spirituality
I would view the Buddha images as art in the Buddha Bar, I will not take it as an offense. Yes, if someone is attracted to the image in Buddha Bar and the next day goes buys one and places it in his/her home - Very Good!
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I guess just seeing a Buddha image does plant seeds as you all say, and it does bestow some blessings. I remember at college, a room mate of mine brought his Asian girlfriend over to our dorm. She was wearing a necklace with a Buddha image. It was the first time I ever really seen a Buddha image up close. Years later, I am starting my Buddhist journey. I guess, our minds do register everything, no matter how minute it is. It just requires something to trigger or reinforce that memory or seed.
I completely agree with you, Douglas. I wear a Buddha pendant around my neck everyday and for a lot of my friends they've either seen it for the first time or they find it refreshing to see a pendant of a Buddha! This is as compared to the other random jewelery that people like to wear nowadays.
If it does create some imprints, and it doesn't require too much effort then why not! :)
This BuddhaBar thing is a great idea! So many people will be able to get imprints because of samsaric reasons haha
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You know what? I think it is great to have a Buddha Bar. But I don't think an image of Shakyamuni is really appropriate. Perhaps a stylized images of Vajrayogini or Heruka would be a better option. Yes, that would create a different atmosphere but hey, its a bar. I think Heruka and Vajrayogini's energy is more in-synch within a bar. I have always thought that would be so cool! I can just see a large Heruka statue in a bar with candles offered up to him while the patrons swirl around him at his feet, perhaps many of which would try to get a glimpse of the holy union.
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You know what? I think it is great to have a Buddha Bar. But I don't think an image of Shakyamuni is really appropriate. Perhaps a stylized images of Vajrayogini or Heruka would be a better option. Yes, that would create a different atmosphere but hey, its a bar. I think Heruka and Vajrayogini's energy is more in-synch within a bar. I have always thought that would be so cool! I can just see a large Heruka statue in a bar with candles offered up to him while the patrons swirl around him at his feet, perhaps many of which would try to get a glimpse of the holy union.
Wow, superb and great idea!!! That would be interesting........ :)
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You know what? I think it is great to have a Buddha Bar. But I don't think an image of Shakyamuni is really appropriate. Perhaps a stylized images of Vajrayogini or Heruka would be a better option. Yes, that would create a different atmosphere but hey, its a bar. I think Heruka and Vajrayogini's energy is more in-synch within a bar. I have always thought that would be so cool! I can just see a large Heruka statue in a bar with candles offered up to him while the patrons swirl around him at his feet, perhaps many of which would try to get a glimpse of the holy union.
I like the idea very much Big Uncle. But aren't tantric deities supposed to be kept away from the uninitiated? Also, there has been much misunderstanding of yab-yum forms, where many people had wrong understanding of these 'sexual Buddhas' :-\ People also always confuse these yabyum Tantric deities and consort practice as well. Yikes!
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BUDDHA BAR is a very COOL concept I think. Personally I have visited the Buddha Bar in Paris, the ambience is superb and gorgeously decorated. They have a huge Buddha statue as a center piece.....extremely empowering!
1) Buddha represents compassion, wisdom, all the goodness one can think of, Bar is a place where people intoxicate themselves with alcohol, flirt with people and sometimes fights happen etc, etc. They represent "Opposite" poles, hence a great nidge for owners to put their name together....got an marketing edge.
2) I have seen buddha statues or images in homes and gardens of Christians, Catholics, and even Muslims, besides the normal places such as temples, altars and homes of buddhist practitioners. I think Buddha is recognised universally as a symbol of peace, harmony and serenity and is the most widely acceptable peace symbol.
So back to the question, should Buddha statue or images be put in bars?
I would, if I am the owner of the bar becasue :
1) Having the statue in the bar will give me a great opportunity to start conversing with customers on subjects relating to buddhism. I can really start from any angle I want, from what is easily preceived as "as a way of life" to "iconography" of the statue (I would even place some buddha statues with their consorts in union posture, why? to provoke more discussion and make clarifications) .... a great way to plant seeds in people's mind and spread buddhist teachings.
2) I want to make Buddha more popular and accessible to people.
3) I want buddha to bless my premises.
4) What better ways to bring buddha to people who may never have a chance to even have a glimpse of his sacred image.
Likewise, it will be cool one day, if we can DS bar, DS tea house, DS coffee shop.........just a thought....would be very COOL!
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I personally like holly images to be place everywhere as decor but of cuz with respect. I like one particularly set up very nicely by a very tasteful designer for a restaurant in Las Vegas Casino call the Tao Restaurant. There is a very large Stone Buddha in the main area of the Restaurant and also other smaller Buddha images everywhere. Buddha Bar is my second.
Well alto I like the concept but hopefully these people that runs the business and make tone’s of money do contribute back to the society.
Never the less I agree with the sharing and views above. The above tells all of us that we have different thoughts and different approach. No right or wrong is just what fit us.
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If Buddha statues or images are to be used as decorative pieces, I believe that we should place them respectfully.
For example:
a. Do not simply place the image on a bare floor
b. Do not place the image inside the toilet
Yes it’s good that we can have such images in our office/residence as anyone who is in the presence of such images will be blessed.
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With all said, at the end of the day, a holy image of the Buddha is precisely that... something that will bring benefit and blessings. Sure we need to treat the image with respect but not because the Buddha needs it because the Buddha is beyond that but because we need to show our respect to such holy images.
I do not think its disrespectful to have a Buddha image in a bar but on the contrary as I feel it is most beneficial in so called "degenerate" areas. Its all beautiful and nice to have holy images in temples but I figure the ones that need it more are the ones who may not be seeking!!!!
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You know what? I think it is great to have a Buddha Bar. But I don't think an image of Shakyamuni is really appropriate. Perhaps a stylized images of Vajrayogini or Heruka would be a better option. Yes, that would create a different atmosphere but hey, its a bar. I think Heruka and Vajrayogini's energy is more in-synch within a bar. I have always thought that would be so cool! I can just see a large Heruka statue in a bar with candles offered up to him while the patrons swirl around him at his feet, perhaps many of which would try to get a glimpse of the holy union.
I like the idea very much Big Uncle. But aren't tantric deities supposed to be kept away from the uninitiated? Also, there has been much misunderstanding of yab-yum forms, where many people had wrong understanding of these 'sexual Buddhas' :-\ People also always confuse these yabyum Tantric deities and consort practice as well. Yikes!
You are right, it is suppose to be secret but hey, you type out their names on any search engine and you find a whole bunch of Tantric imagery on public display. So, why not a bar, where almost nobody would really care about the imagery because they are too wrapped up in their fun. So, a little Buddha seeds would be sprinkled in their minds when they behold the Buddhas and perhaps germinate at a later time. Also, Vajrayogini's modesty could be covered with ornaments to resemble the bone ornaments that she wear. Same thing for Heruka.
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Dear Big Uncle,
I like what you wrote and your suggestion for placing the Tantric Buddha images into places where people would not normally expect to see them. Times have changed so much that our minds cannot simply comprehend the purity of holy images without projecting our own contaminated ideas onto these divine images. We misunderstand a great deal, because our minds are so tainted and even corrupted. A clear sign that times have degenerated a great deal. Hence, it might just be very necessary to place these so-called 'sexy' images of Heruka, Vajrayogini and etc in bars where most of the decadent and 'un-holy' activities take place. People who frequent these places would probably need the most spiritual help. What better way to plant seeds of spirituality into their mind streams, as you so say.
Love the idea of having a DS cafe, Bistro or reading tea room as well. That would be excellent. A place to enjoy tea, pastries, coffee and cakes - yet at the same time, be introduced to Dorje Shugden.
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I have not had the opportunity to visit Buddha Bar as triesa has. I love the Buddha Bar albums though!
I have visited places in thailand and bali and buddha images are often placed in restaurants, hotel lobbies, gardens, pubs as decorative pieces which brought so much serenity to the premises! The balinese style of architecture and decor has in the past decade or so been a strong influence on home interior decoration as well as commercial outlets. I find this superb! Perhaps because of these visuals, many buddha images has entered countless homes, be it people believe in buddha or not.
I am all for the Buddha Bar :)
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The latest news I found online re Buddha Bar in Jakarta (which was a french franchise) was April 2011:
Brushing off the controversy that marred its short run in Jakarta, the former Buddha Bar will soon reopen as Bistro Boulevard.
When the Buddha Bar set up shop in the pre-World War I Bataviasche Kunstskring (Batavia Art Circle) building in October 2008, it was the first of the global chain of cocktail lounges to open in Asia.
However, the bar soon found itself at the center of controversy as religious groups protested its name and the use of Buddha statues as decorations in the bar and restaurant. It was eventually ordered to shut down last year.
In a recent statement, the management of the restaurant, Nireta Vista Creative, said it had donated the colossal Buddha statue to one of Jakarta’s Buddhist temples.
“This action marks the end of a franchise settlement between Buddha Bar Jakarta and Buddha Bar worldwide,” it said.
From: http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/home/never-far-from-strife-buddha-bar-takes-new-road/435800
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The latest news I found online re Buddha Bar in Jakarta (which was a french franchise) was April 2011:
Brushing off the controversy that marred its short run in Jakarta, the former Buddha Bar will soon reopen as Bistro Boulevard.
When the Buddha Bar set up shop in the pre-World War I Bataviasche Kunstskring (Batavia Art Circle) building in October 2008, it was the first of the global chain of cocktail lounges to open in Asia.
However, the bar soon found itself at the center of controversy as religious groups protested its name and the use of Buddha statues as decorations in the bar and restaurant. It was eventually ordered to shut down last year.
In a recent statement, the management of the restaurant, Nireta Vista Creative, said it had donated the colossal Buddha statue to one of Jakarta’s Buddhist temples.
“This action marks the end of a franchise settlement between Buddha Bar Jakarta and Buddha Bar worldwide,” it said.
From: [url]http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/home/never-far-from-strife-buddha-bar-takes-new-road/435800[/url]
I find it sad that any religious group would go to such lengths to plan and ensure a person or establishment is mooted out because of what they think is not right. Isn't Buddhism supposed to be all accepting and that even if the Buddha Bar did not have a "higher purpose" other than using the Buddha images as decorative placements, what is fundamentally wrong with that?
And do they actually rejoice when someone has to close down their business??? Hmmmm. Surely this is not right or am I merely being self righteous and have no bearing to even begin to "judge" them. Perhaps! But for me personally, I find no wrong in having Buddha images in bars because like I said in my earlier posts, it is actually beneficial in planting seeds whether or not we choose to accept it. The holy image of a Buddha does not need to or have to garner support to give its blessings!
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Buddha is Buddha, and he will not feel angry or anything if He is in the bar or not.
I personally think that He will bless the people, and more importantly, people who see Him will create a connection with Him (plant imprints) to learn Dharma in the future...
Yes, please put more Buddhas EVERYWHERE!!
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Sometimes in December 2008, a French Bar chain called Buddha Bar opened in Indonesia’s capital Jakarta and it also invited protests from the local Buddhist community who have grouped together under Anti Buddha-Bar forum named FABB.
Argument from the Opponents of Buddha Bar
FABB argues that usage of Lord Buddha’s image inside a bar creates a negative impression about Buddhism and Buddha’s teachings. This negative impression comes from the fact that a place where alcohol etc is served should not connect itself with the image of Lord Buddha because it creates a negative connotation in the minds of Buddhists and Non-Buddhists about Buddha and His teachings. This is the argument by Anti Buddha-Bar protesters who want nothing less than seeing the bar closed down in Indonesia for good.
Argument from the Supporters of Buddha Bar
But it appears not all Buddhists are opposing the bar. Buddhist supporters for the bar have grouped together under Indonesian Young Generation of Buddhists (Gemabudhi) who want the bar to stay. I quote their view:
Instead, he added, Gemabuddhi hoped Buddha Bar restaurant to become one of the pillars of Buddhist teachings; introducing to all people that Buddhists are not idol worshipers, or there is no doctrine in Buddhism that considers the statue is a sacred object.
Source: [url]http://www.buddhadiary.com/2010/08/buddha-bar-protests-in-indonesia-an-insight/[/url]
What do you think? Do you think it's ok to have Buddha statues in places like a bar?
It is not respectful to place a Buddha statue in a bar. However, in this age of degeneration where the level of spiritualism is very poor, it is better to plant seeds of Enlightenment in people's mind than not planting at all. Hence, it is ok to have Buddha statues in a bar.
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Gosh! Much discussion here about Buddhas in a bar!
I have to join the crowd and am for the Buddha bar concept for all the reasons stated. For those who think it's disrespectful, i heard that even for someone who sits on a Buddha statue or destroys it with anger, they are still creating a connection with the Buddha and it is better than not seeing the statue at all. Is this true?
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I have to join the crowd and am for the Buddha bar concept for all the reasons stated.
For those who think it's disrespectful, I heard that even for someone who sits on a Buddha statue or destroys it with anger, they are still creating a connection with the Buddha and it is better than not seeing the statue at all.
Is this true?
It is true.
Why? Because coming across a Buddha image plants a seed regardless of what one does with this image.
This I have heard from my Teacher.
Yet, let's be intelligent, it does not mean that there is no difference between making offerings to the representation of an enlightened being: a Buddha image, and tearing it into parts.
To blow up the giant Buddhas of Bamiyan can't carry good karma, even if imprints have been created in one's mind stream by those that perpetrated the destruction. In fact, this is an interesting example, because the very people that destroyed the Buddhas understood that anyone seeing these Buddhas was receiving a seed of enlightenment, an imprint, and that is what they wanted to destroy.
I can't think that this action brings about good karma.
The Buddhas don't "get back at" the people who disrespect their images.
It's not like we can make a Buddha angry or something like that, and then he slaps you back as retaliation.
But to deprive people of access to Buddha images, and disrespect Buddha images brings about negative karma for it goes against our deepest nature.
We are the maker and guardian of our karma.
Thus the debate about Buddha Bar...
Yes it plants seeds, but some people might create negative karma that they would not have created if Buddha Bar was not a bar?
So is it still a good option?
Or would it be better to find safer ways to plant "Buddha seeds?"
What if... the negative action one has towards a Buddha image is the product of enlightened skillful means from a Buddha in service of the propagation of the Dharma?
Let's think of all the "negative" actions done related to the ban, which in turns helps the spread of Dorje Shugden? - a negative creating a positive and done within the activity realm of a Buddha.... (a merit's field that is after all!).
Is it still negative karma?
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This is an extremely cool bar. In fact, it would be good for this bar to exist. Why? Because there will be karmic seeds implanted in the minds of those who go to this bar. Also, what is the first impression of alcohol for people with sadness or depression or just got dumped? Happiness. Although it is temporary, this would provide the opportunity for people to associate Buddha with happiness. It is also for this reason, Buddhists can provide food to animals and bless them with a Buddha pendant or show them a Buddha statue. Then, the animal associates food with Buddha. Thus, the animal has positive karmic relations with the Buddha.