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General Buddhism => General Buddhism => Topic started by: Roberto on March 01, 2011, 08:42:15 PM
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I still finding it hard to grasp the following.
So its been said that Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen's incarnation is back.
But - he incarnated as Dorje Shugden?
So if he is back and teaching again, would he be praying to himself when he did his protector puja?
What if there is an DS oracle where he is, does that mean he prays to himself, and then he takes trance of the oracle to give himself answers to important questions?
Wow... i'm getting a headache trying to make the connections
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Roberto,
That's actually quite easy. Yes! He could be the Lama, Protector and Yidam simultaneously! So that means he could be the incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen praying to Dorje Shugden and then performing a sadhana to Yamantaka. They are all emanations of Manjushri! Historically, Manjushri appeared to Lama Tsongkhapa and gave him many teachings. That is like Manjushri teaching himself! In the scriptures, Buddha Shakyamuni taught that the enlightened mind is capable of 'spontaneous magical emanation' and that means, a enlightened mind can emanate out in countless beings to perform a greater amount of work to benefit others.
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I still finding it hard to grasp the following.
So its been said that Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen's incarnation is back.
But - he incarnated as Dorje Shugden?
So if he is back and teaching again, would he be praying to himself when he did his protector puja?
What if there is an DS oracle where he is, does that mean he prays to himself, and then he takes trance of the oracle to give himself answers to important questions?
Wow... i'm getting a headache trying to make the connections
In the lamrim (liberation in the palm of your hand), in the part describing the visualization of Buddha Shakyamuni, Buddha Vajradhara, Buddha Manjushri and Buddha Maitreya (it is I think in the 3rd preparatory rites -refuge visualization), it is said that these buddhas are surrounded with activity, and that many emanations are sent out and many emanations are coming back. It is described like the big HQ of the enlightened activities of the enlightened minds of Buddhas...
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Dear Roberto,
I don't know if this analogy will be of help to you, but when my Guru explained it to me in this way, it did help me to understand much better about the nature of Enlightened Beings.
Imagine Enlightened Beings to be like water - it can be contained if there is a container to contain it, but it can also flow freely to wherever. Enlightened Beings can emanate in various places in different forms all at the same time. Just like water - if you pour the water into several different cups, glasses or containers and even jars or pots - it is still water. It does not change. Even if you spilt it on the ground, it is still water. It's the same, but now, it is in different places.
However, more than water - Enlightened Beings will choose to emanate as whatever form that will best benefit the sentient beings around. So, it could be as a Protector, an Oracle or a Guru, a beggar or even a courtesan.
Enlightened Beings will do whatever is necessary to help us all see, learn, understand and open up our minds.
They do not need to pray to themselves, but they may need to emanate as somethings to show us how to pray, how to work harder or even commit and not give up - all for the sake of Dharma.
I am just giving you a few examples here. In truth, it is infinite what Enlightened Beings can be and can do.
Hope this is helpful.
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I still finding it hard to grasp the following.
So its been said that Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen's incarnation is back.
But - he incarnated as Dorje Shugden?
So if he is back and teaching again, would he be praying to himself when he did his protector puja?
What if there is an DS oracle where he is, does that mean he prays to himself, and then he takes trance of the oracle to give himself answers to important questions?
Wow... i'm getting a headache trying to make the connections
What Helena wrote was very apt.
Some students would listen to an oracle, rather than their own guru.
The belief that what their gurus say is true, unfortunately, may not be as strong as their belief in an oracle. If you perceive your guru to be a Buddha, then essentially their word is the same.
What the guru says we associate it with him/her, so if something "harsh" is said we might feel negative towards him/her. To stop us from collecting negative karma, perhaps those messages get channeled through someone we don't communicate with face-to-face. I mean, how can we be angry with an oracle. It wasn't really him, but who he channeled...
I hope that made sense...
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Agree with all that's been said. When i first went down the path of buddhism i found it difficult to believe in the whole emanation, reincarnation, simultaneous manifestation of the mind concept.
Throw emptiness in there that even what we conceptualise is not real then you may find yourself thinking this buddhism crap is one big mindf#$k... and you would be right too.
But seriously, to put limitations on the nature of mind would negate even practicing anything taught by our holy gurus. That they could be wrong. Besides a Buddhamind is supposed beyond all this doubt.
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And here we are, taking pride in looking into the deep, vast, universe (nothing wrong with that) when we don't even know how our mind works ...
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On top of that, Tulkus... real attained Tulkus would emanate out when they leave their earthly body. They usually return in 3 bodies... body, speech and mind or as body, speech, mind, qualities and activities.
However, when the search begins, they only look for the mind emanation because that is the true incarnation of that Tulku. Hence, there are thousands of Tulkus in Tibet and many of them are associated with Avalokiteshvara, Manjushri and Maitreya.
Even Dorje Shugden is really just an emanation of Manjushri and so is Lama Tsongkhapa, Kalarupa, Yamantaka, 4-face Mahakala, the Sakya Trizin and so forth.
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Imagine Enlightened Beings to be like water - it can be contained if there is a container to contain it, but it can also flow freely to wherever. Enlightened Beings can emanate in various places in different forms all at the same time. Just like water - if you pour the water into several different cups, glasses or containers and even jars or pots - it is still water. It does not change. Even if you spilt it on the ground, it is still water. It's the same, but now, it is in different places.
However, more than water - Enlightened Beings will choose to emanate as whatever form that will best benefit the sentient beings around. So, it could be as a Protector, an Oracle or a Guru, a beggar or even a courtesan.
Enlightened Beings will do whatever is necessary to help us all see, learn, understand and open up our minds.
Dear Roberto,
There is nothing confusing.
The great Bodhisattva, Shantideva , in his "Guide to the Bodhisattva's Way of Life" prayed that :
Just as the great elements of earth, water and so forth support the life of sentient beings, so may I too become the sustenance for all. May I become whatever is beneficial for all sentient beings in the realms reaching to the ends of space until they attain complete and unsurpassable enlightenment
Such is the intention of the holy beings, therefore the skilful means of buddhas are all encompassing and beyond the limited perceptions of ordinary folks like us :D
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We do not realise the full potential of our mind. It is capable of so much more and since, we know that our true nature of our mind is kindness, clarity and deep insight. It is not developing something new but rediscovering that part of our mind. Hence, being able to emanate into different beings is very possible. It starts with the fact that we realize our potential to do so much more for others.
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How's your realisation coming along Big Uncle, what part of your day do you get to practice your potential to help soo many more?
At the same time we're supposed to practice positiv potential to benefit, the negative potential is struggling to stay alive.
Do we help the guy who's cutting me off on the freeway, do I spank my child to instill a sense of discipline or adherence to other people's rules? Do I put the seat down for when my wife wants to use the toilet?
Some days are just too much to handle
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Dear Roberto,
Realising that we can be much more just requires one to open our mind to change and see that if other people can do much more, so can we. However, real spiritual realisations come when we study the Dharma, create merits (through holding vows, maintaining our samaya with our Guru and performing our sadhanas and kangsols (to Dorje Shugden) and incorporate the teachings into our lives.
All of these are not difficult because it just require effort. Everything in life requires effort. Even not doing anything requires effort and so if we direct effort to the right thoughts and motivation, we can do a lot more for others. I am not a perfect example but I see many of my friends and Dharma brothers and sisters do this and have gotten their results. Hence, I have to change myself to do the same.
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I love this thread! At the beginning i find it all too hard to absorb. Who & who and who does what and asking myself what do i do in the end of the day???!!! (I still do!!) I guess, spiritual is like water, formless; it moves us... on a bad day when we are about get angry, some "dharma reminder" came in... then you're like ok... Be nice. There are times when is good.. you totally forgot there is a dog at home waiting for food etc... It is all about mindfulness of dharma I presume, the more we push ourselves or train our mind to practice and turn into actual actions.. the more it becomes a habit. So less anger, less doubts, less frustration... Nobody says it was easy for us though. We are all the same, we are not perfect. So instead of making the effort to change ten people, let's just change ourselves. It is easier. Coz I know me.
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Everything in life requires effort. When we embark on something new it is always difficult. Through perseverance that difficult task we perceived as difficult will become easier as the days go by.
We can't change the world but we can change ourselves to make the world a better place to live in. How, by letting go of our attachment, hatred, anger, desire, intolerance, jealousy etc etc. It is easier said than done but through constant practice, applying the Buddhadharma into our daily life and being mindful we can cut away all these negativity. The results will come not immediately but through time, we will be able to see a transformation in ourselves. The main purpose of dharma practice is to achieve these results.
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Dear Roberto,
I could understand how you may feel because I have also been in your shoes. Sometimes our mind just could not figure anything out except confusion.....
Would like to share a story here and hope it will help to ease our minds....
Beautiful Thought by Lord Buddha
Once Buddha was traveling with a few of his followers. While they were passing a lake, Buddha told one of his disciples, "I am thirsty. Do get me some water from the lake."
The disciple walked up to the lake. At that moment, a bullock cart started crossing through the lake. As a result, the water became very muddy and turbid. The disciple thought, "How can I give this muddy water to Buddha to drink?"
So he came back and told Buddha, "The water in there is very muddy. I don't think it is fit to drink."
After about half an hour, again Buddha asked the same disciple to go back to the lake.
The disciple went back, and found that the water was still muddy. He returned and informed Buddha about the same.
After sometime, again Buddha asked the same disciple to go back.
This time, the disciple found the mud had settled down, and the water was clean and clear. So he collected some water in a pot and brought it to Buddha.
Buddha looked at the water, and then he looked up at the disciple and said," See what you did to make the water clean. You let it be, and the mud settled down on its own -- and you have clear water.
Your mind is like that too ! When it is disturbed, just let it be. Give it a little time. It will settle down on its own. You don't have to put in any effort to calm it down. It will happen. It is effortless."
Having 'Peace of Mind' is not a strenuous job; it is an effortless process!
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I still finding it hard to grasp the following.
So its been said that Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen's incarnation is back.
But - he incarnated as Dorje Shugden?
So if he is back and teaching again, would he be praying to himself when he did his protector puja?
What if there is an DS oracle where he is, does that mean he prays to himself, and then he takes trance of the oracle to give himself answers to important questions?
Wow... i'm getting a headache trying to make the connections
Roberto,
That's actually quite easy. Yes! He could be the Lama, Protector and Yidam simultaneously! So that means he could be the incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen praying to Dorje Shugden and then performing a sadhana to Yamantaka. They are all emanations of Manjushri! Historically, Manjushri appeared to Lama Tsongkhapa and gave him many teachings. That is like Manjushri teaching himself! In the scriptures, Buddha Shakyamuni taught that the enlightened mind is capable of 'spontaneous magical emanation' and that means, a enlightened mind can emanate out in countless beings to perform a greater amount of work to benefit others.
Thanks for the clarification. I have this puzzling thought too. It's mind boggling, superhero does exist in real life in fresh and blood. Very cool ;D
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Thank you for the explaination too! I believe in Buddha emanates to many other beings to benefit the world, that is also the reason why you do hear that there are usually a few reincarnations of High Lamas. For obvious reasons, they are of a purpose to benefit others in the human realm.
As for this case, it is not surprising to see an incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen to be praying to Dorje Shugden (who is Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen himself) and doing daily sadhana of Majushri and Yamantaka. All are related and of from the same mind, enlightened mind.
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I had the same questions too!!! I believe I've asked a few of my Dharma friends before about this question but there was no definite or conclusive answer to it, so I still remained confused regarding this. But I was thinking in the context of why is it that Lama Tsongkhapa was having visions of Manjushri when he is Manjushri himself?!
I think Helena's explanation is really good... on how the Buddha's mindstream is like water, fitted in different vessels (containers) and through this, they show us how to practice. We are really fortunate to be in an era where the Buddha's compassion still shines on us... with incarnations of great Lamas whom compassionately return tirelessly to benefit sentient beings through the Dharma.
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Roberto,
Personally i was confused too when i first tried to grasp this concept of Buddhas having multiple emanations, likely due to my limited Dharma knowledge.
However, as i looked around the world today with all its technological advancement, i found a close analogy that made me understand this concept or phenomenon. I hope my "silly" analogy can help you understand better.
I found it to be very real when i watched a documentary on tv about the internet and virtual reality gaming culture in our society today. Some real hardcore virtual reality gamers actually lives out an alter ego life in those virtual world of their CHOICE and what is even more real is that some actually immerse their life and soul into those virtual worlds in cyber space as their customized "AVATARS" .
Some of these hardcore gamers even become professionals in such worlds that they can generate income for the real world we live in. Some become so obsessed that they "EMANATE" (LOL) MULTIPLE Avatars that exists simultaneously in one "world" (game) or in MULTIPLE worlds (games) !
So Roberto , if a "normal" hardcore computer gamer who has a mind capacity, as any of us smucks out here in samsara, can create an Avatar OR multiples of them and "live" those "lives" simultaneously.................
Imagine what a BUDDHA mind can do ! In fact there is some scientist who believe that we could possibly be living this samsaric life in a form a " virtual reality " created by all our COLLECTIVE CONSCIOUSNESS !
I hope my 2 cents worth made sense, or at least it made you LOL. Cheers !
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And i believed one of the reason for Buddha to manifest/ incarnate into so many forms is to benefit sentient beings in different time and era. How can someone as silly as myself be able to receive teaching directly from Buddha Tsongkhapa Himself. So being a Buddha with compassion and skillful means He tirelessly teaching us through different ways and methods.
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Roberto,
That's actually quite easy. Yes! He could be the Lama, Protector and Yidam simultaneously! So that means he could be the incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen praying to Dorje Shugden and then performing a sadhana to Yamantaka. They are all emanations of Manjushri! Historically, Manjushri appeared to Lama Tsongkhapa and gave him many teachings. That is like Manjushri teaching himself! In the scriptures, Buddha Shakyamuni taught that the enlightened mind is capable of 'spontaneous magical emanation' and that means, a enlightened mind can emanate out in countless beings to perform a greater amount of work to benefit others.
Thank Big uncle, this is very logic and it help me understand things clearly, when i first learned tibetan buddhist i was wondering why are there so many buddha and why many of buddha are menifiestation by one buddha..and so on.. i understand it from their great compassion but still don't really get to the point. your example is make sense and really give light to me.
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Roberto,
That's actually quite easy. Yes! He could be the Lama, Protector and Yidam simultaneously! So that means he could be the incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen praying to Dorje Shugden and then performing a sadhana to Yamantaka. They are all emanations of Manjushri! Historically, Manjushri appeared to Lama Tsongkhapa and gave him many teachings. That is like Manjushri teaching himself! In the scriptures, Buddha Shakyamuni taught that the enlightened mind is capable of 'spontaneous magical emanation' and that means, a enlightened mind can emanate out in countless beings to perform a greater amount of work to benefit others.
Oh yes, I thought it sounded familiar. Here you go, an explanation you gave on emanation vs incarnation:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1239.0 (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1239.0)
Really excites me when I read the question. How logical! Thank you for the explanation. Imagine someone asked me and I go aahhhhh... I would have said.. They are all enlightened beings, full of wisdom and compassion with countless methods to benefit so it doesn't matter whether they are 'praying' to themselves.
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Confusion - the mother of misunderstandings.
When I first heard of emanations of an enlightened being, I went whoa! It didn't strike me that it was the enlightened mind that we are talking about. I thought - how confusing - if there are many emanations, then how do we know who is the correct one?
Thank you for explaining here for the benefit of many others who are still in the dark.
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Roberto,
Personally i was confused too when i first tried to grasp this concept of Buddhas having multiple emanations, likely due to my limited Dharma knowledge.
However, as i looked around the world today with all its technological advancement, i found a close analogy that made me understand this concept or phenomenon. I hope my "silly" analogy can help you understand better.
I found it to be very real when i watched a documentary on tv about the internet and virtual reality gaming culture in our society today. Some real hardcore virtual reality gamers actually lives out an alter ego life in those virtual world of their CHOICE and what is even more real is that some actually immerse their life and soul into those virtual worlds in cyber space as their customized "AVATARS" .
Some of these hardcore gamers even become professionals in such worlds that they can generate income for the real world we live in. Some become so obsessed that they "EMANATE" (LOL) MULTIPLE Avatars that exists simultaneously in one "world" (game) or in MULTIPLE worlds (games) !
So Roberto , if a "normal" hardcore computer gamer who has a mind capacity, as any of us smucks out here in samsara, can create an Avatar OR multiples of them and "live" those "lives" simultaneously.................
Imagine what a BUDDHA mind can do ! In fact there is some scientist who believe that we could possibly be living this samsaric life in a form a " virtual reality " created by all our COLLECTIVE CONSCIOUSNESS !
I hope my 2 cents worth made sense, or at least it made you LOL. Cheers !
I was about to quote Helena's explanation using the water example but u know what.. i think your explanation is is easier to understand and very apt!
I used to wonder why are certain Lamas considered to be "emanations" of certain Buddhas, and i read about how Manjushri (if i remember correctly) emanated as one of Buddha's disciples to ask a question... how does that work? then a friend told me that when people say this or that Lama is regarded as an emanation of a Buddha, it means that the mind of the Lama is the same as that Buddha. Which is like your explanation of how 1 person can have a few avatars in the gaming world! The avatars may look and behave different, and do different things but with the same objective (to win, i presume), but ultimately is played by 1 person.
Thanks very much for this analogy, i understand better now :)